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IBK
13-06-2011, 09:29 AM
Yes, I know - what we all need is another depressing article on the state of affairs at AFC. But over the past couple of seasons, I have started to think about trends, and whether, rather than a period of 'rebuilding' what we are seeing at AFC is the gradual decline - certainly of a once great manager, but even of our status as a proper, top club.

I wonder what it must have felt like at Liverpool - in the years after 89/90 - or Villa in the mid 1980's. I am sure that their fans thought that they were just a couple of signings away from a return to the top - that getting in the right manager would see the glory days return - just like many of us now. Of course I realise that our commercial basis is relatively sound - and that direct comparisons are difficult - but the competition is arguably a lot stronger now.

What is quite shocking ATM is the sheer depth of negativity and lack of hope that surrounds our club. This is clearly the case amongst the players as well as the fans. There is, and has been, an air of misery about the place for a while now - one that brings to mind a relegated club rather than one (hopefully) playing CL football next season.

I know I will be labelled 'knee jerk' or a band-waggoner by some - but to me the Arsenal spirit itself is deserting the club. This article http://www.onlinegooner.com/article.php?section=exclusive&id=2331 from the Online Gooner last Saturday presents a view about what is happening at Arsenal that at present its very difficult not to sympathise with.

Thoughts?

Coney
13-06-2011, 09:34 AM
After we had won the double in 1971, there was hope we would win some more silver. But the next year we fell short in the league and lost the FA Cup to a late goal by Leeds. Season after season, it just did not happen. If there had been a GW at the time I'm sure I'd have been able to look at loads of posts about the disaster of the Arsenal, how the manager/playerA/PlayerB/etc was a useless tosser / waste of space / rubbish buy / total cunt / etc and how if only the poster was manager it would all be sorted out and we'd then win lots of silver every year.. .. .. .. .. :blah:

IBK
13-06-2011, 09:40 AM
Hey Coney - nice to hear from ya! An interesting point of perspective. 2 points here, though. The first seems to agree with my theory that we may be looking at a long period of decline. The second seems to take issue with the fact that there is a 'crisis' at the club.

Of course, none of us have a crystal ball. But without your historical points of reference, this sure feels like more than a temporary blip.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 09:41 AM
I've said this before but 5 years ago when it became apparent we were going to try and achieve success in a different way, the common theme was "give them a few years and this Arsenal team will be awesome" etc...

Well, here we are, several years later and we're in no better position. The truth is what we planned to do just hasn't worked out, therefore I don't buy into the notion of potential anymore, another year here, another year there, it doesn't matter. The reality we face is here and what good is planning for the future going to do when the team is stuck in such a rut right now? Someone at the club needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

IBK
13-06-2011, 09:43 AM
The problem is how we plan for the future when the club's best players want out, and its starting to look like a vicious circle that is making the club a less attractive proposition for prospective best players?

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 09:49 AM
The problem is how we plan for the future when the club's best players want out, and its starting to look like a vicious circle that is making the club a less attractive proposition for prospective best players?

That's exactly it. The team now has a very different flavour to it than the one just 3-4 years ago. Planning for the future is all well and good, but when that future is completely different to the one envisaged because of players always on the move, then what's the point? I'd wager that most of our team don't give a damn about Wenger's ideology, they're in it for themselves and if the team is not successful they won't hesitate in looking elsewhere, as we're seeing with Nasri now. You have to think even if he does sign a new deal, you can bet you bottom dollar he will be looking to leave if we don't bring in a trophy anytime soon.

Özim
13-06-2011, 09:50 AM
We're in decline for sure, the reason being we're allowing it. Little or no investments, gambling on unknowns and kids and relying on other teams faltering seems to be our policy.

If we strived to improve and challenge this could so easily be stopped, but we seem to want to do the bare minimum and are happy to settle for 4th.

If we keep this up it will catch us out and we'll miss out on CL football eventually, could have happened this season if other teams hadn't faltered a bit and underperformed.

IBK
13-06-2011, 09:52 AM
Aye - but the most depressing thing about it is that players are wanting out without being prepared to put their heart and soul into trying to achieve the success that's necessary. I can understand players lacking loyalty - what hurts is seeing them lacking any sense that it is a privilege playing for a club like Arsenal. That is what we are losing - hence why I have such sympathy with many of the points being made in the article.

Kano
13-06-2011, 09:54 AM
there was a period in the 80's pre Graham when PHW and co were really under the cosh from the fans for where the club was heading and things changed.

what makes things worse now is the constant exposure to the media and football 24/7 which pumps up even the most sedate of fans into a frenzy.

certain things need to change but if the club was struggling financially, without a new owner wanting to implement a new vision long termand a manager that will change in the next few years then you may be right.

Özim
13-06-2011, 09:57 AM
Aye - but the most depressing thing about it is that players are wanting out without being prepared to put their heart and soul into trying to achieve the success that's necessary. I can understand players lacking loyalty - what hurts is seeing them lacking any sense that it is a privilege playing for a club like Arsenal. That is what we are losing - hence why I have such sympathy with many of the points being made in the article.
The problem I see is they're probably as frustrated by what's happening as some of the fans (especially the better players). AW is so stubborn that he just won't do the necessary and after year after year of collapse it's hard to believe, we're basically a stepping stone club, the better players won't want to stay at a club that never achives success.

Another issue is that the team spirit which AW so often preaches about just isn't there.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 09:57 AM
Aye - but the most depressing thing about it is that players are wanting out without being prepared to put their heart and soul into trying to achieve the success that's necessary. I can understand players lacking loyalty - what hurts is seeing them lacking any sense that it is a privilege playing for a club like Arsenal. That is what we are losing - hence why I have such sympathy with many of the points being made in the article.

That's a problem with modern day footballers unfortunately, something that we just have to grin and bear. For me, the club has a fantastic foundation for future success, however it has neglected the current team for an ideolgy that could bare fruit in 1 year....or 5 years, no one knows and no one is prepared to wait, apart from the most important people at the club.

Özim
13-06-2011, 09:59 AM
That's a problem with modern day footballers unfortunately, something that we just have to grin and bear. For me, the club has a fantastic foundation for future success, however is has neglected the current team for an ideolgy that could bare fruit in 1 year....or 5 years, no one knows.
That's true, however our collapses and policy's don't help to encourage loyalty either. It's always hard to hold onto players, but if you show some ambition and do achieve some success you have a better chance.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:00 AM
The problem is how we plan for the future when the club's best players want out, and its starting to look like a vicious circle that is making the club a less attractive proposition for prospective best players?

That is a slight worry. Players are going to look to manu first as they have a recent track record. However, players are going to chavs who have only won one league title in the last 5 years - only 1 fewer than us. ;)

I'm sure there are plenty of great players who would look to play for the Arsenal still, because we are, despite everything, one of 3-4 clubs most likely to win trophies in the PL. If Citeh, Liverpool and (shudder) spuds can make themselves title contenders over the next year or so, then there will be a bigger issue getting players in. The fact is, although we have failed at the last hurdle a few times, we are close - frustratingly close - and a really top player might feel that he and another can be what makes the difference between nearly made it and actually getting the title and want to join because of the glory they will have, not just of being in the winning team, but also feeling they made the difference. Maybe that is what Wenger / Gazedis will be saying to prospective buys over this transfer period.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:01 AM
Much as the stepping stone status rankles, its the refusal to bust a gut to alter the club's fortunes while they are with us that hurts more. Sometimes it almost feels that players are laughing behind the manager's back at how gullible/naive he is.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:03 AM
That is a slight worry. Players are going to look to manu first as they have a recent track record. However, players are going to chavs who have only won one league title in the last 5 years - only 1 fewer than us. ;)

I'm sure there are plenty of great players who would look to play for the Arsenal still, because we are, despite everything, one of 3-4 clubs most likely to win trophies in the PL. If Citeh, Liverpool and (shudder) spuds can make themselves title contenders over the next year or so, then there will be a bigger issue getting players in. The fact is, although we have failed at the last hurdle a few times, we are close - frustratingly close - and a really top player might feel that he and another can be what makes the difference between nearly made it and actually getting the title and want to join because of the glory they will have, not just of being in the winning team, but also feeling they made the difference. Maybe that is what Wenger / Gazedis will be saying to prospective buys over this transfer period.

I'd love to believe that. More importantly, I'd love to believe that we are talking to players of the caliber able to make the difference. My fear is that by allowing the Cesc/Nasri stalemate to continue, we are allowing the choice players to go elsewhere.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:05 AM
That's a problem with modern day footballers unfortunately, something that we just have to grin and bear. For me, the club has a fantastic foundation for future success, however it has neglected the current team for an ideolgy that could bare fruit in 1 year....or 5 years, no one knows and no one is prepared to wait, apart from the most important people at the club.

Right - which is why we must have those couple of extra 'backbone' players to give us that extra bit that results in getting trophies. Wenger is right in that we are close, but until we have the key motivating players in the right positions (CB, CM) then we are going to keep just being close. It is not a disaster but we do need some enforcers. Success has come to teams with people like Adams, Keane (Roy), Vieira, Terry to drive them if heads start to drop or if someone needs to drive forward and show the way. OK some of them are total cunts but their sides get the results that tip the balance.

Özim
13-06-2011, 10:05 AM
Much as the stepping stone status rankles, its the refusal to bust a gut to alter the club's fortunes while they are with us that hurts more. Sometimes it almost feels that players are laughing behind the manager's back at how gullible/naive he is.
As I've mentioned before, some players are self-motivated but most need to get this from the manager. You'll often see the effect a new manager has on players (when he's the right choice), he seems to glavanise the players and they seem to be hungrier.

Our current manager cannot motivate, the fact the players don't believe in his method and perhaps aren't self motivated add to the problem...as for being gullible, he is time an time again players kick him in the teeth and yet he maintains the same policy.

It's the manager's problem that he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

Letters
13-06-2011, 10:05 AM
There is no clear trend of decline. What there is is stagnation.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Right - which is why we must have those couple of extra 'backbone' players to give us that extra bit that results in getting trophies. Wenger is right in that we are close, but until we have the key motivating players in the right positions (CB, CM) then we are going to keep just being close. It is not a disaster but we do need some enforcers. Success has come to teams with people like Adams, Keane (Roy), Vieira, Terry to drive them if heads start to drop or if someone needs to drive forward and show the way. OK some of them are total cunts but their sides get the results that tip the balance.

Couldn't agree more. The current team is severely lacking in character. With RVP and Wilshere probably being the only exceptions from the season just gone.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:08 AM
There is no clear trend of decline. What there is is stagnation.

Perhaps - but whan does stagnation become decline? Remember that if you stagnate, while those around you press on, its the same thing! Plus, I'd say that in terms of us being a destination club the trend is downwards, not flat.

Özim
13-06-2011, 10:10 AM
Plus, I'd say that in terms of us being a destination club the trend is downwards, not flat.
Definitely, more and more players are not interested in the opportunity to play for us, the only ones we can attract regularly are the kids who know they'll get more money and game time.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Definitely, more and more players are not interested in the opportunity to play for us, the only ones we can attract regularly are the kids who know they'll get more money and game time.

...and the type of players who are happy to come knowing that they will get a cruisy time, having played a couple of half decent games and secured a nice fat pay packet.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Is this based on a couple weeks on non transfer activity by most clubs?

Özim
13-06-2011, 10:13 AM
Is this based on a couple weeks on non transfer activity by most clubs?
No it's based on recent history and the fact players have openly come out and said they're not interested in joining us.

In terms of prestige we're definitely going backwards, no established player wants to sign for a club who regularly collapse when it matters and have a reputation for it.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:14 AM
There is no clear trend of decline. What there is is stagnation.

Indeed. It needs fresh input. This could be a new manager but it could be just Arsene getting a push from a fresh board - i.e. Kroenke - and I am hoping that the board change might make the difference. We are moving from a very conservative board to a new owner who will, if nothing else, want to make changes, just because he is there. No successful person like Kroenke takes something over and makes no changes. It just doesn't happen. Even if he is keeping Wenger as manager, I can't believe he will not want changes to take place. Also, if he is going to make it work - to market the Arsenal product, which is what he must do - then one of the important selling points is having the team captain holding up some silverware. He is likely to be looking at investing in some players for a later bigger reward in sales (especially in the far east) of Arsenal products as manu did and even chavs are starting to do. I don't think the old board worked in that way but I am pretty sure he will.

Here's hoping that in this window we will see some movement indicating that is going to happen. I'm not worried yet - the transfer window has months to run - but I'd feel happier if we had some positive signs before we get deep into August.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Is this based on a couple weeks on non transfer activity by most clubs?


Nope - its based on 6 years of under investment; the lack of balls shown by the vast majority of our players over the majority of that time; the stinky attitude shown habitually by several of our very well paid professionals; and the 'mini crisis that we are now seeing where 3 of our most senior players want out.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:16 AM
who said that they didnt want to join?

from my knowledge, man utd and other euro super clubs have always been ahead of us in the pecking order

Letters
13-06-2011, 10:17 AM
Perhaps - but whan does stagnation become decline? Remember that if you stagnate, while those around you press on, its the same thing! Plus, I'd say that in terms of us being a destination club the trend is downwards, not flat.

I don't think other clubs have pushed on though. They've tried to but for all Liverpool and Spurs spending they've not managed to leapfrog us despite doom mongering on here that they would. The only club who have is City but we can't seriously compete with a side with unlimited funds. Chelsea leaptfrogged us by spending silly money, City will do the same. If anyone thinks a different manager could have stopped that happening then they're deluded. Only Utd have resisted and they've not exactly been thrifty and have Ferguson as manager who is better than pretty much anyone else by a distance IMO (much as I hate the man it's impossible to deny how good he is).
The race for 4th will be interesting next year with Liverpool and Spurs sure to push hard. I see the top 3 from this year being the same as next, after that it's harder to call although I do fancy us to finish 4th again simply because for all his faults Wenger has never failed to deliver that at least.
But it's not decline that clubs can throw silly money around to leapfrog us. Or, at least, it's not decline we can do much about.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't think other clubs have pushed on though. They've tried to but for all Liverpool and Spurs spending they've not managed to leapfrog us despite doom mongering on here that they would. The only club who have is City but we can't seriously compete with a side with unlimited funds. Chelsea leaptfrogged us by spending silly money, City will do the same. If anyone thinks a different manager could have stopped that happening then they're deluded. Only Utd have resisted and they've not exactly been thrifty and have Ferguson as manager who is better than pretty much anyone else by a distance IMO (much as I hate the man it's impossible to deny how good he is).
The race for 4th will be interesting next year with Liverpool and Spurs sure to push hard. I see the top 3 from this year being the same as next, after that it's harder to call although I do fancy us to finish 4th again simply because for all his faults Wenger has never failed to deliver that at least.
But it's not decline that clubs can throw silly money around to leapfrog us. Or, at least, it's not decline we can do much about.

Surely the silly money phase will be ending with the new fair play rules coming into effect? It might still be that we will have the last laugh.

IBK
13-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't think other clubs have pushed on though. They've tried to but for all Liverpool and Spurs spending they've not managed to leapfrog us despite doom mongering on here that they would. The only club who have is City but we can't seriously compete with a side with unlimited funds. Chelsea leaptfrogged us by spending silly money, City will do the same. If anyone thinks a different manager could have stopped that happening then they're deluded. Only Utd have resisted and they've not exactly been thrifty and have Ferguson as manager who is better than pretty much anyone else by a distance IMO (much as I hate the man it's impossible to deny how good he is).
The race for 4th will be interesting next year with Liverpool and Spurs sure to push hard. I see the top 3 from this year being the same as next, after that it's harder to call although I do fancy us to finish 4th again simply because for all his faults Wenger has never failed to deliver that at least.
But it's not decline that clubs can throw silly money around to leapfrog us. Or, at least, it's not decline we can do much about.

A good point, well made re the competition. But I fear you overdo the 'silly money' point. As many have said, its not our inability to spend silly money that made us implode this season. And I think that its our failure to prevail against non top 6 clubs rather than the likes of Citeh and chavs that has people worried about a malaise that goes more than chequebook-deep.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:24 AM
A good point, well made re the competition. But I fear you overdo the 'silly money' point. As many have said, its not our inability to spend silly money that made us implode this season. And I think that its our failure to prevail against non top 6 clubs rather than the likes of Citeh and chavs that has people worried about a malaise that goes more than chequebook-deep.

Agreed - if Vermaelen had remained healthy and Chamakh had turned out to be not another Bendtner, we could have been in serious contention. We need to buy a backup Vermaelen and someone who can actually put the ball in the bloody net instead of pissing about. I don't think that has to cost that much money.

Letters
13-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Surely the silly money phase will be ending with the new fair play rules coming into effect? It might still be that we will have the last laugh.

Yes, Wenger is doing the right thing 'morally' if you ask me (if there are morals in business). If these rules have any teeth (I'm skeptical but hopeful) then long term we might be sitting pretty and Wenger would have shown to be right. We all want success but we surely all want the club to have stable long term foundations too. The issue for me is with a bit more spending and a decent captain we could just have both.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:24 AM
i hear it at games and on the net, this constant harping on about pay packets whilst at the same time wanting us to spend money, you can't have one without the other anymore.

one thing is for sure if we were winning, then wages wouldn't be mentioned. and there is nothing to suggest that just by winning a trophy they would 'earn' their stupid ott wages. nothing can justify it and using it against players is meaningless.

Letters
13-06-2011, 10:25 AM
A good point, well made re the competition. But I fear you overdo the 'silly money' point. As many have said, its not our inability to spend silly money that made us implode this season. And I think that its our failure to prevail against non top 6 clubs rather than the likes of Citeh and chavs that has people worried about a malaise that goes more than chequebook-deep.

Yeah, I do agree with that. It is hard to resist the rise of clubs like Chelsea and now City who can spend what they like without consequence.
But last year's collapse was nothing to do with that, we should have easily finished above City last year.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:26 AM
i hear it at games and on the net, this constant harping on about pay packets whilst at the same time wanting us to spend money, you can't have one without the other anymore.

one thing is for sure if we were winning, then wages wouldn't be mentioned. and there is nothing to suggest that just by winning a trophy they would 'earn' their stupid ott wages. nothing can justify it and using it against players is meaningless.

There was some suggestion (can't remember where I saw it - a few days ago anyway) about increasing the proportion of performance related pay against straight regular salary.

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 10:29 AM
The truth is what we planned to do just hasn't worked out



The plan may not have worked out for the fans but for AW and the board this could have been what they wanted all along. Their ambition was not to win the league but finsish top 4 and winning the league or a cup would be a bonus.

Untill the Ambition of the board and manager changes this club will be indecline every seasons. This is something that is selfmade and could be stopped very easily.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:29 AM
There was some suggestion (can't remember where I saw it - a few days ago anyway) about increasing the proportion of performance related pay against straight regular salary.

thats probably true but i dont understand using it to bash players with when we are underperforming, when if they are succeeding that would not justify the level of pay they achieve. nothing would.

Joker
13-06-2011, 10:32 AM
We are definitely on the slide. We only need to look at results in the last 5 years to see that we have stagnated, committing the same mistakes season after season and losing steam in the title race around March/April time. Every season we don't take the FA Cup seriously and go out in the 5th/6th rounds. We did well in the Carling Cup this season, but again, when it came to the crunch, we failed again. The Champions League shows we are not good enough against Europe's elites, and it's relatively predictable that we will go out in the Quarters every season.

You could argue, how can we be on the slide if we're simply stagnating? The thing is, teams like Liverpool, City, Spurs are looking to improve on the back of impressive seasons (end of season in Liverpool's case). The teams above us are not sitting on their laurels and are continually looking to improve themselves. While we have a squad of spoilt, overpaid footballers, many of whom have a higher opinion of themselves than their performances justify. Quite a few of our first team players are looking to leave (Clichy, Cesc, Nasri), while others have made noises about leaving (Denilson, Bendtner)

I'm not that concerned about the players leaving, because IMO they are cowards who were as responsible for our underachievements as anyone else. However, the lack of incoming players is a worry, and the fact that, in that article that you posted, the author claims that we offered Phil Jones higher wages than United (and a higher transfer fee) shows how far we have fallen in status, and the detrimental effect of this is that we are much less competitive in the transfer market. To put it in language that Wenger and our corporate board will understand, our lack of success has reduced the "brand value", making it harder to entice potential "customers".

I agree with the article in that a complete culture change is needed. We need players who can combine quality with substance, who are willing to run through brick walls and who do not rest on their laurels, and are intelligent enough to realise that a few good performances doesn't make you the dog's bollocks. Those players are available on the market, and do not have to cost the earth (look at Sagna and Vermaelen for instance) If Wenger took his head out of his arse, perhaps he'd see that.

Özim
13-06-2011, 10:33 AM
thats probably true but i dont understand using it to bash players with when we are underperforming, when if they are succeeding that would not justify the level of pay they achieve. nothing would.
It would certainly help if we were winning, in terms of money they would bring to the club (in terms of commercial revenue, sponsorship and prize money) and of course in terms of transfer value of a player.

I don't see why players like Denilson, Bendtner etc should get big money when they've achieved nothing in the game, you have to at least earn your salary not have it handed on a plate to you.

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:34 AM
thats probably true but i dont understand using it to bash players with when we are underperforming, when if they are succeeding that would not justify the level of pay they achieve. nothing would.

In a sense. I mean, if you are earning 80K a week, I guess a performance bonus of a few K if you win a match is going to have less impact. However, there may be a psychogical effect that will make them find that extra mile. A purist would say they should not need it and so on, but human nature is not always 100% ultruistic. ;)

Boss
13-06-2011, 10:40 AM
Although I think we are on a slide in terms of reputation and will find it very hard to make top four this season, I expect this to change when Wenger leaves / is thrown out. Even though I don't believe he has the capability to win trophies anymore, even with the financial fair play rules coming into play, I think a competent manager would and they will ultimately benefit us far more than they will any other club.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:42 AM
It would certainly help if we were winning, in terms of money they would bring to the club (in terms of commercial revenue, sponsorship and prize money) and of course in terms of transfer value of a player.

I don't see why players like Denilson, Bendtner etc should get big money when they've achieved nothing in the game, you have to at least earn your salary not have it handed on a plate to you.

players are not bashed because they are not driving revenue into the club, no fan really cares about that too much

no footballer earns their money, none of em

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:42 AM
We are definitely on the slide. We only need to look at results in the last 5 years to see that we have stagnated, committing the same mistakes season after season and losing steam in the title race around March/April time. Every season we don't take the FA Cup seriously and go out in the 5th/6th rounds. We did well in the Carling Cup this season, but again, when it came to the crunch, we failed again. The Champions League shows we are not good enough against Europe's elites, and it's relatively predictable that we will go out in the Quarters every season.

You could argue, how can we be on the slide if we're simply stagnating? The thing is, teams like Liverpool, City, Spurs are looking to improve on the back of impressive seasons (end of season in Liverpool's case). The teams above us are not sitting on their laurels and are continually looking to improve themselves. While we have a squad of spoilt, overpaid footballers, many of whom have a higher opinion of themselves than their performances justify. Quite a few of our first team players are looking to leave (Clichy, Cesc, Nasri), while others have made noises about leaving (Denilson, Bendtner)

I'm not that concerned about the players leaving, because IMO they are cowards who were as responsible for our underachievements as anyone else. However, the lack of incoming players is a worry, and the fact that, in that article that you posted, the author claims that we offered Phil Jones higher wages than United (and a higher transfer fee) shows how far we have fallen in status, and the detrimental effect of this is that we are much less competitive in the transfer market. To put it in language that Wenger and our corporate board will understand, our lack of success has reduced the "brand value", making it harder to entice potential "customers".

I agree with the article in that a complete culture change is needed. We need players who can combine quality with substance, who are willing to run through brick walls and who do not rest on their laurels, and are intelligent enough to realise that a few good performances doesn't make you the dog's bollocks. Those players are available on the market, and do not have to cost the earth (look at Sagna and Vermaelen for instance) If Wenger took his head out of his arse, perhaps he'd see that.

I don't agree we are not good enough against Europe's elites. We can and did beat manu and chavs and I don't see people making the same comments about them. We did better (4-3) against Barca - who are almost in a league of their own - whereas manu managed only 3-1 and were just as much pushed out of the game as we were - possession stats for manu and the Arsenal against Barca were similar at about 2:1 ratio. We got bounced out of the CL this year because we drew Barca in the first knock-out round. Had manu or chavs drawn them they would have got crapped on two (yeah - ignore the fact we came second in the group stage - the point is when you draw a team like that in whatever round, you stand a high chance of being screwed.)

As Letters said earlier, we have stagnated but the other teams have not stormed ahead really. Not only in the PL but also not in the CL. Again, had the ball not fallen to Bendtner in the second Barca game but to Nasri or VP, we might well have gone through 4-4 on agregate and a lot of the verbage we have seen on GW would not have happened. Barca might have dominated the games we played against them but they did not put us to the sword by scoring 10 goals against us. If that had been the Arsenal, we would have had a ton of comments about us dominating play but not converting it into goals. Well, against us, Barca did not score anything like the number of goals they should have in proportion to their possession. Same was true when they played manu, if it comes to that.

Boss
13-06-2011, 10:44 AM
players are not bashed because they are not driving revenue into the club, no fan really cares about that too much

no footballer earns their money, none of em

Top players more than earn the money they're paid.

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:46 AM
well thats a minority pov

Coney
13-06-2011, 10:49 AM
Players are not paid for playing football as they were in the past. The are paid as entertainers because that is what TV is making the game become and as such, they are the rock stars of the genre so the wages reflect that. (And like rock stars they have agents to feed and they are extremely greedy bastards).

Kano
13-06-2011, 10:49 AM
yeah id agree with that

selassie
13-06-2011, 11:03 AM
Yes, I know - what we all need is another depressing article on the state of affairs at AFC. But over the past couple of seasons, I have started to think about trends, and whether, rather than a period of 'rebuilding' what we are seeing at AFC is the gradual decline - certainly of a once great manager, but even of our status as a proper, top club.

I wonder what it must have felt like at Liverpool - in the years after 89/90 - or Villa in the mid 1980's. I am sure that their fans thought that they were just a couple of signings away from a return to the top - that getting in the right manager would see the glory days return - just like many of us now. Of course I realise that our commercial basis is relatively sound - and that direct comparisons are difficult - but the competition is arguably a lot stronger now.

What is quite shocking ATM is the sheer depth of negativity and lack of hope that surrounds our club. This is clearly the case amongst the players as well as the fans. There is, and has been, an air of misery about the place for a while now - one that brings to mind a relegated club rather than one (hopefully) playing CL football next season.

I know I will be labelled 'knee jerk' or a band-waggoner by some - but to me the Arsenal spirit itself is deserting the club. This article http://www.onlinegooner.com/article.php?section=exclusive&id=2331 from the Online Gooner last Saturday presents a view about what is happening at Arsenal that at present its very difficult not to sympathise with.

Thoughts?

Really interesting thread.

We've no doubt stagnated...not quite sure that we're in decline yet but we're fast approaching it and have to be very very careful about the direction we take as a football club this summer.

What is clear is that the Current Policy from a footballing point of view, be it results, mentality & squad harmony doesn't work, it's failed...it's a vision that is clearly flawed and has to change, whether it has to change permanently is one that the manager has to answer but this policy hasn't & will not work with the current set of players we have.

It's quite simplistic to solely point the blame at the manager but there are a number of things that I believe need to change at the club in order for the football team to progress. I'm afraid to say a lot of our ideals & policies are very much stuck in the 90's and you will only get away with achieving the bare minimum for so long. This team is very much in danger of missing out on CL football altogether if some of the policies at the club are not changed/modified.

A lot of these changes I would like to see are in one way or another financially driven, investing more money in the playing squad for me is the no.1 priority and distributing it properly as oppose to having this crazy "everyone is equal" structure that is purely based on ideology. A lot of our policies are based on ideology and they must change, this is not how a successful business operates & it's certainly not how a successful football team operates.

Coney
13-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Really interesting thread.

We've no doubt stagnated...not quite sure that we're in decline yet but we're fast approaching it and have to be very very careful about the direction we take as a football club this summer.

What is clear is that the Current Policy from a footballing point of view, be it results, mentality & squad harmony doesn't work, it's failed...it's a vision that is clearly flawed and has to change, whether it has to change permanently is one that the manager has to answer but this policy hasn't & will not work with the current set of players we have.

It's quite simplistic to solely point the blame at the manager but there are a number of things that I believe need to change at the club in order for the football team to progress. I'm afraid to say a lot of our ideals & policies are very much stuck in the 90's and you will only get away with achieving the bare minimum for so long. This team is very much in danger of missing out on CL football altogether if some of the policies at the club are not changed/modified.

A lot of these changes I would like to see are in one way or another financially driven, investing more money in the playing squad for me is the no.1 priority and distributing it properly as oppose to having this crazy "everyone is equal" structure that is purely based on ideology. A lot of our policies are based on ideology and they must change, this is not how a successful business operates & it's certainly not how a successful football team operates.

I agree, especially the parts in bold. :good:

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 11:11 AM
Yes, I know - what we all need is another depressing article on the state of affairs at AFC. But over the past couple of seasons, I have started to think about trends, and whether, rather than a period of 'rebuilding' what we are seeing at AFC is the gradual decline - certainly of a once great manager, but even of our status as a proper, top club.

I wonder what it must have felt like at Liverpool - in the years after 89/90 - or Villa in the mid 1980's. I am sure that their fans thought that they were just a couple of signings away from a return to the top - that getting in the right manager would see the glory days return - just like many of us now. Of course I realise that our commercial basis is relatively sound - and that direct comparisons are difficult - but the competition is arguably a lot stronger now.

What is quite shocking ATM is the sheer depth of negativity and lack of hope that surrounds our club. This is clearly the case amongst the players as well as the fans. There is, and has been, an air of misery about the place for a while now - one that brings to mind a relegated club rather than one (hopefully) playing CL football next season.

I know I will be labelled 'knee jerk' or a band-waggoner by some - but to me the Arsenal spirit itself is deserting the club. This article http://www.onlinegooner.com/article.php?section=exclusive&id=2331 from the Online Gooner last Saturday presents a view about what is happening at Arsenal that at present its very difficult not to sympathise with.

Thoughts?

Article is spot on. I like the bit about Song, just goes to show how arrogant our players really are.

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:22 AM
Article is spot on. I like the bit about Song, just goes to show how arrogant our players really are.
Yeah great article and so true, the Carling Cup final was another example....turning up in tracksuits for a final just shows the lack of discipline and respect IMO.

AW has allowed this to happen rather than clamping down on these things, I liken this to having a child that is spoilt and thinks that he can do anything he wants, AW has been far too soft with them and this is the result.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:26 AM
almost as bad as fab wearing a leather jacket on the field

Joker
13-06-2011, 11:30 AM
Precisely, the players think they've got it made, that they're superstars who have achieved everything they need to, when in reality they have achieved sweet FA in their careers.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:31 AM
i was joking for gods sake

i remember when the players turned up for wembley under gg wearing suits and were accused of being arrogant!

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:35 AM
i was joking for gods sake

i remember when the players turned up for wembley under gg wearing suits and were accused of being arrogant!
Sorry but I think all players should turn up in suits for the final of a competition, it shows respect and that they take the job seriously.

The casual attitude at Arsenal these days is part of the problem, there's just no discipline at all. AW is just so protective of them and is just way too soft on them, I don't get why he is, it's been proven to achieve nothing positive.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:37 AM
that is a really old and dated point of view

what you wear makes no difference to your approach especially when you have to change anyway

IBK
13-06-2011, 11:38 AM
I agree - it was B'hams biggest day in years - and they looked like it. We slouched off the bus with tracksuits and headphones on, looking and playing like the whole thing was beneath us - and look what happened, not just to the match but to our season.

But Wenger professses himself happy with the team spirit and attitude....

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:42 AM
looking like it in hindsight, i bet a suit wouldnt have been credited for winning

perception is a funny thing

it sure didnt look underneath them at the final whistle with their reactions

IBK
13-06-2011, 11:45 AM
looking like it in hindsight, i bet a suit wouldnt have been credited for winning

perception is a funny thing

it sure didnt look underneath them at the final whistle with their reactions

Its not about the suit, its about the approach to the game. If you think our approach was right - them you must be on crack. The faces of the players spoke of how they had been humbled by a far poorer team, and undone by a schoolboy error. For real evidence of how much of a fuck they gave, look at their subsequent performances...

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:49 AM
Its not about the suit, its about the approach to the game. If you think our approach was right - them you must be on crack. The faces of the players spoke of how they had been humbled by a far poorer team, and undone by a schoolboy error. For real evidence of how much of a fuck they gave, look at their subsequent performances...

what you wear does not reflect your approach, thats an old school ideal. we know nothing of our approach to it only what we want to believe was the attitude. the mistake in the game wasnt due to that but the ongoing defensive problems. if they didnt care then how did they get there in the first place

i didnt know there are specific faces for losing to different types of team, i thought you were either disappointed or happy.

how much of a fuck they gave doesnt reflect on the next games, if that was the case then every player for the past 7 years falls under that banner, including some of our previous 'greats'.

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:49 AM
Its not about the suit, its about the approach to the game. If you think our approach was right - them you must be on crack. The faces of the players spoke of how they had been humbled by a far poorer team, and undone by a schoolboy error. For real evidence of how much of a fuck they gave, look at their subsequent performances...
Exactly, it's not about the suit at all.

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:51 AM
what you wear does not reflect your approach, thats an old school ideal. we know nothing of our approach to it only what we want to believe was the attitude. the mistake in the game wasnt due to that but the ongoing defensive problems.

i didnt know there are specific faces for losing to different types of team, i thought you were either disappointed or happy.

how much of a fuck they gave doesnt reflect on the next games, if that was the case then every player for the past 7 years falls under that banner, including some of our previous 'greats'.
Couldn't disagree more, it's a special occasion and everything you do matters...if you can't be bothered and think that walking around in your tracksuit is good enough clearly you don't really care that much.

As I said before it reflects our poor attitude and discipline.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:52 AM
if you live a few decades back then yes

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:54 AM
if you live a few decades back then yes
Not at all, you make an effort for special occasions...I wouldn't turn up to someone's wedding in a T-shirt and that's nothing to do with living a few decades back.

If you don't give a sh*t and lack any respect then yeah, you turn up in trackusits.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:55 AM
how is that a comparison, players change into their work outfits, do you for a wedding

Özim
13-06-2011, 11:57 AM
how is that a comparison, players change into their work outfits, do you for a wedding
It's not just another work day, it's a special occasion. It's a bit like meeting all the top bosses of your company, would you turn up in a tracksuit and t-shirt?

The point is you prepare and dress for the occasion, it shows you know it matters and are focussed on what is a big game.

Kano
13-06-2011, 11:57 AM
dear me

Özim
13-06-2011, 12:00 PM
You can deny it all you like, but IMO it's a reflection of our casual attitude and we all know what happened...the hungrier team won.

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 12:00 PM
looking like it in hindsight, i bet a suit wouldnt have been credited for winning

perception is a funny thing

it sure didnt look underneath them at the final whistle with their reactions

They were upset because they got undone by a worse theam then them.

end of the day it was a bit of karma that we lost. We have been disrepecting the competiton for a long time. until we respect touraments we won't win them end of.

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 12:05 PM
Its about what wearing the suit represents. Is shows how we are poud to be a part of the final and the exprience. We not turn up to the fa cup or CL final in tracksuits so why do it in another cup final because our players don't rate it.

Like zim said AW is far too relaxed when it comes to these lot and it needs to changed. Treat them like Men not spoilt kids who get what they want.

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Very much on the slide.

We're stuck in a rut and we dont know how to get out of it.

Well we do but the board arent brave enough to take the risk of sacking Wenger.

We are far more likely to slip out of the top 4 than we are to winning the league or any trophy for that matter

The Verminator
13-06-2011, 12:23 PM
The slide was months ago.

Now we're at the bottom in the swimming pool filled with shit and pus. :(

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 12:25 PM
Very much on the slide.

We're stuck in a rut and we dont know how to get out of it.

Well we do but the board arent brave enough to take the risk of sacking Wenger.

We are far more likely to slip out of the top 4 than we are to winning the league or any trophy for that matter

If were stuck in a rut then its down to the manager and the board. Come on Cripps you and me know if they wanted to do something about it they would.

Our problems are self made no matter how much AW talks about other clubs spending and fiancial rules.

Saw a quote with AW going on about how this season is the last season to spend big, and how next season the financial fair fules come into play.

You culd just see him smirkig as he said it. Has his excuses ready for why he won't spend next summer already.

Fist of Lehmann
13-06-2011, 12:28 PM
However, players are going to chavs who have only won one league title in the last 5 years - only 1 fewer than us. ;)


This made briefly happy, if only for the delusion that we had won 2 league titles in 5 years. :scarf:

@OP you ask an interesting and pertinent question, one worth debating. The article you linked to though is largely garbage, I can find no sympathy for this kind of half-assed thinking. Except for the bit about Diaby, Diaby's a dick.

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 12:31 PM
If were stuck in a rut then its down to the manager and the board. Come on Cripps you and me know if they wanted to do something about it they would.

Our problems are self made no matter how much AW talks about other clubs spending and fiancial rules.

Saw a quote with AW going on about how this season is the last season to spend big, and how next season the financial fair fules come into play.

You culd just see him smirkig as he said it. Has his excuses ready for why he won't spend next summer already.
I wish i knew how to multi quote cos id use it here but nevertheless

Wenger is the problem. That much is obvious to all and sundry. The board wont sack him though cos he doesnt spend money and the money he doesnt spend goes in to their pockets and keeps them rich.

Agree with that. For all of Chelseas and Man Citys spending, that had f all to do with us losing a 4 goal lead in 20 mins, losing a cup final against a team in the relegation zone, not winning arguably the easiest CL group in history meaning we faced Barca instead of Roma as Shakthar did. All that is down to us and not the money spent by other clubs

As a great man once said, "Wenger has gone senile" I do wonder though what excuse he will use when the fairplay rule comes about and we still win f all. Hope we never found out cos he'll be gone :pray:

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 12:37 PM
I wish i knew how to multi quote cos id use it here but nevertheless

:

Its easy just click on the button on the right hand side of the " reply with quote" button then click the button till you see a tick then it should work.

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 12:47 PM
If were stuck in a rut then its down to the manager and the board. Come on Cripps you and me know if they wanted to do something about it they would.

Our problems are self made no matter how much AW talks about other clubs spending and fiancial rules.

Saw a quote with AW going on about how this season is the last season to spend big, and how next season the financial fair fules come into play.

You culd just see him smirkig as he said it. Has his excuses ready for why he won't spend next summer already.


Its easy just click on the button on the right hand side of the " reply with quote" button then click the button till you see a tick then it should work.

Thats what i did.

Coney
13-06-2011, 01:09 PM
This made briefly happy, if only for the delusion that we had won 2 league titles in 5 years. :scarf:

@OP you ask an interesting and pertinent question, one worth debating. The article you linked to though is largely garbage, I can find no sympathy for this kind of half-assed thinking. Except for the bit about Diaby, Diaby's a dick.

Shit - I meant one more. :(

Letters
13-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Wenger is the problem. That much is obvious to all and sundry. The board wont sack him though cos he doesnt spend money and the money he doesnt spend goes in to their pockets and keeps them rich.

Agree with that. For all of Chelseas and Man Citys spending, that had f all to do with us losing a 4 goal lead in 20 mins, losing a cup final against a team in the relegation zone, not winning arguably the easiest CL group in history meaning we faced Barca instead of Roma as Shakthar did. All that is down to us and not the money spent by other clubs

As a great man once said, "Wenger has gone senile" I do wonder though what excuse he will use when the fairplay rule comes about and we still win f all. Hope we never found out cos he'll be gone :pray:

Do you think we'll do better when Wenger goes? Really?

Flavs
13-06-2011, 01:17 PM
The slide was months ago.

Now we're at the bottom in the swimming pool filled with shit and pus. :(

Jesus if this is the bottom for our club then we are very, very priveleged

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 01:25 PM
Do you think we'll do better when Wenger goes? Really?

I dont know that. Nobody does but i think its time we took that risk cos the one we thing we do know is that if Wenger stays then we are going one way and one way only and thats down.

Not necessarily relegation although i did make that Clough comparison on another thread but certainly out of the top 4.

We might get worse after Wenger. On the other hand, we might get better depending on who comes in. Plenty of decent managers out there who have won trophies for their clubs.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Do you think we'll do better when Wenger goes? Really?

To be honest I'm beyond the point of caring now. I think the club needs to gamble in some shape or form, whether that's in the transfer market or getting rid of Wenger I am open to both.

This is not our fault of course, but I resent the fact that 4th can get you into the CL. That's essentially why Wenger is still in a job and gets by relatively unquestioned, because he can qualify for this predictable money spinning competition that we don't have a hope of winning anytime soon. It might be beneficial to the board but for us the fans I don't think we take much pleasure anymore in qualifying.

LDG
13-06-2011, 01:30 PM
I think the original article is pretty rubbish tbh.

The problem is not terminal, it can be set right pretty easily. It's the people at the top and our manager who need to do it though....and I'm pretty sure the message is starting to come through loud and clear.

Özim
13-06-2011, 01:32 PM
To be honest I'm beyond the point of caring now. I think the club needs to gamble in some shape or form, whether that's in the transfer market or getting rid of Wenger I am open to both.

This is not our fault of course, but I resent the fact that 4th can get you into the CL. That's essentially why Wenger is still in a job and gets by relatively unquestioned, because he can qualify for this predictable money spinning competition that we don't have a hope of winning anytime soon.
Yeah me too, I don't give a toss about 4th place to be honest, sick of just making up the numbers in the CL too.

I'd rather we got someone new in, we might do worse of course but at least it's also possible we could do better, moreover we'd have hope at least.

4th place gets you into the CL, what a joke it's suppose to be the "Champions" league not the Champions, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place losers league. I could just about live with the top 2 going into it, but 4 teams...that's ridiculous.

Joker
13-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Yeah me too, I don't give a toss about 4th place to be honest, sick of just making up the numbers in the CL too.

I'd rather we got someone new in, we might do worse of course but at least it's also possible we could do better, moreover we'd have hope at least.

4th place gets you into the CL, what a joke it's suppose to be the "Champions" league not the Champions, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place losers league. I could just about live with the top 2 going into it, but 4 teams...that's ridiculous.

True, even if there are negative effects in the short run (i.e. dropping out of the top 4) surely it is worth it if in the long run we can break this cycle of stagnation and actually go on win trophies? We can be conservative and worry about the effects of Wenger leaving, but if we maintain that mentality, we'll be stuck with top 4 finishes and no trophies every year, and eventually we'll drop out of the Champions League places anyway, with other teams around us improving.

selassie
13-06-2011, 01:38 PM
I think the original article is pretty rubbish tbh.

The problem is not terminal, it can be set right pretty easily. It's the people at the top and our manager who need to do it though....and I'm pretty sure the message is starting to come through loud and clear.

The message maybe getting to them but do they really care? I mean honestly?

How patronising is it that we have Hill-Wood stating that anyone who dares question the running of the club is Stupid and Arsene who defiantly states that anybody who questions how we perform is "impatient". It's totally and utterly ridiculous IMHO

Letters
13-06-2011, 01:39 PM
I do think it's getting to the point where we need to take the risk but I also think we're quite likely to get worse post-Wenger and some are underestimating how good he is. For all the frustrations he's not suddenly become a bad manager. He's kept us top 4 and while I no longer care about that - I'd rather be in mid-table and win a trophy - I think some are underestimating how well he's done to achieve that. Plenty of other managers have spent far more in an attempt to make their sides a fixture in the top 4 and failed miserably.

LDG
13-06-2011, 01:40 PM
The message maybe getting to them but do they really care? I mean honestly?

How patronising is it that we have Hill-Wood stating that anyone who dares question the running of the club is Stupid and Arsene who defiantly states that anybody who questions how we perform is "impatient". It's totally and utterly ridiculous IMHO

Depends whether they're interested in seeing declining match revenue I guess. It's pretty obvious people are going to start voting with their feet sooner rather than later.

Mr Wenger knows he's fucked up too. I expect him to be quite ruthless this summer. Whether that's too little too late for next season I don't know.

Joker
13-06-2011, 01:41 PM
The message maybe getting to them but do they really care? I mean honestly?

How patronising is it that we have Hill-Wood stating that anyone who dares question the running of the club is Stupid and Arsene who defiantly states that anybody who questions how we perform is "impatient". It's totally and utterly ridiculous IMHO

I'm not sure the message is even getting through tbh. It's certainly not gotten through to the board, who showed how out of touch they are by hiking ticket prices at a time of austerity and fan disillusionment. Moreover, you only need to read the comments of (as you say) PHW to see the disdain he feels for the supporters.

The Verminator
13-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Jesus if this is the bottom for our club then we are very, very priveleged

Meh, I was only kidding but actually I really don't see us going any lower. I think we've reached our plateau at 4th. Can't really make an informed opinion until the transfer window is closed, but right now I don't see Spuds or the scousers finishing above us next year. And long term I don't see us dropping out of the CL spots either.

IBK
13-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Depends whether they're interested in seeing declining match revenue I guess. It's pretty obvious people are going to start voting with their feet sooner rather than later.

Mr Wenger knows he's fucked up too. I expect him to be quite ruthless this summer. Whether that's too little too late for next season I don't know.

I know its easy to get worked up too soon, but the manager is doing a good impression of dithering rather than making the bold moves that the situation probably merits.

LDG
13-06-2011, 01:49 PM
I know its easy to get worked up too soon, but the manager is doing a good impression of dithering rather than making the bold moves that the situation probably merits.

Well, we don't know what is going on do we. If rumours are to be believed, he punted more for Jones than Utd. That's hardly dithering.

I'm more inclined to wait and see what happens, and call him out if we reach deadline day without the required investment needed. It's clear he won't be ousted as manager, so we're stuck with a two month wait, like it or not.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 01:55 PM
You think he would like to have his main buys in for July 1st or whenever pre-season starts.

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 01:58 PM
You think he would like to have his main buys in for July 1st or whenever pre-season starts.

He'll be in Argentina apparently. Thats when the Copa America starts.

Wonder which one of those players on show will be the next Wenger will claim he was "close" to signing only for him to join another club and become a superstar.

selassie
13-06-2011, 02:01 PM
He'll be in Argentina apparently. Thats when the Copa America starts.

Wonder which one of those players on show will be the next Wenger will claim he was "close" to signing only for him to join another club and become a superstar.

You would hope Wenger has drawn up his list of targets/sounded out the targets agent(s) and given the list to Gazidis to trash out the deals.

LDG
13-06-2011, 02:01 PM
You think he would like to have his main buys in for July 1st or whenever pre-season starts.

And there is rumour that we're on for a busy week this week....only rumour of course.

We can only wait unfortunately.

But he'll get a shoeing if nothing is done before August.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 02:06 PM
He does normally get his most expensive deals done in advance in June/early July.

It's the cannon fodder that follows as we get closer to August, when he decides to plug a gap in the squad with someone cheap and cheerful.

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 02:14 PM
Do you think we'll do better when Wenger goes? Really?

Well it can't get any worse can it

Coney
13-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Well it can't get any worse can it

Can't get any worse than better than all but 3 teams in the English leagues?

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Can't get any worse than better than all but 3 teams in the English leagues?

Well it all depends who would replace AW if he left

Fist of Lehmann
13-06-2011, 02:31 PM
So...it could get worse then?

Hump
13-06-2011, 02:36 PM
On the slide? Hardly. Finding it harder to compete on and off the field whilst still maintaining a sustainable business model and trying to play an attractive game. Probably. Is sacking Wenger, breaking the bank to hire mercenary footballers and selling our heritage to the highest bidder guaranteed to bring success. Nope.

Letters
13-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Well it can't get any worse can it

:lol: Behave!

selassie
13-06-2011, 02:55 PM
On the slide? Hardly. Finding it harder to compete on and off the field whilst still maintaining a sustainable business model and trying to play an attractive game. Probably. Is sacking Wenger, breaking the bank to hire mercenary footballers and selling our heritage to the highest bidder guaranteed to bring success. Nope.

So it's either the current model or we spend like Man City? There is no middle ground?

Coney
13-06-2011, 02:56 PM
Well it all depends who would replace AW if he left

And there's the rub. Who would you suggest we realistically get? Lots of people say to get rid of Wenger but rarely suggest who should replace him and why.

budesonide
13-06-2011, 03:02 PM
So it's either the current model or we spend like Man City? There is no middle ground?

no there isn't.

which is why wenger is a genius and no other manager could have done any better working within artificially constructed financial boundaries and going into seasons with inadequate squad only to moan about injuries,pitches,referees,number of games that have to be played etc. Then claim we have done well considering said imposed artificial restrictions.

come on, dude. :trophy:

Hump
13-06-2011, 03:07 PM
I think the middle ground is where we are at the moment. Buying big or a change of management would be risky. Doing nothing is not an option. So reviewing the squad and making changes that would hopefully make us more competitive for the whole season would seem to be the sensible approach.

Coney
13-06-2011, 03:14 PM
I think the middle ground is where we are at the moment. Buying big or a change of management would be risky. Doing nothing is not an option. So reviewing the squad and making changes that would hopefully make us more competitive for the whole season would seem to be the sensible approach.

Sounds about right. Certainly things are not so bad that we should make drastic changes which might give us a possibility of improving but are much more likely to send us downwards, if the experience of other clubs who have taken that line are anything to go by. We might get someone who improves the defence and tightens a few things up but we might lose our attacking strengths and end up as a mid-table team. Imagine that - a team which neither contends for the title nor fights to avoid relegation. Where would the excitement be in that? At least with the Arsenal we have three quarters of a season where we can have the illusion that we are going to win something.

selassie
13-06-2011, 03:24 PM
I think the middle ground is where we are at the moment. Buying big or a change of management would be risky. Doing nothing is not an option. So reviewing the squad and making changes that would hopefully make us more competitive for the whole season would seem to be the sensible approach.

No it's not.

The middle ground isn't about mismanaging the Defensive side of our game for nigh on 4 seasons. No amount of money will rectify a Defence that appears to not be trained on certain aspects of the game. Set Pieces?

Middle ground isn't about handsomely rewarding squad members who have achieved next to nothing.

Middle ground isn't about avoiding purchasing players from your own domestic league.

Özim
13-06-2011, 03:26 PM
I think the middle ground is where we are at the moment. Buying big or a change of management would be risky. Doing nothing is not an option. So reviewing the squad and making changes that would hopefully make us more competitive for the whole season would seem to be the sensible approach.
Doing what we're doing at the moment is in no way the middle ground, it's the extreme.

The middle ground would be making the necessary changes by spending some money (i.e 10-15 million if necessary on quality signings).

Coney
13-06-2011, 03:40 PM
I think we should have a new definitions thread. Item 1 - Define Middle Ground.

Xhaka Can’t
13-06-2011, 04:16 PM
And there's the rub. Who would you suggest we realistically get? Lots of people say to get rid of Wenger but rarely suggest who should replace him and why.

I'm heartily sick of this question as it ignores all the names that have been put forward in the past and it is ignorant of the fact that there is a Chief Executive and Board in place who are richly rewarded and whose job it is to do more than shrug their shoulders when it is clear we need a new manager.

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 04:22 PM
I'm heartily sick of this question as it ignores all the names that have been put forward in the past and it is ignorant of the fact that there is a Chief Executive and Board in place who are richly rewarded and whose job it is to do more than shrug their shoulders when it is clear we need a new manager.

Any name put forward is laughed off most of the time anyway. :rolleyes:

For me I would take a punt on Pep.

GP
13-06-2011, 04:22 PM
Well it can't get any worse can it

I suppose not. Not since we've just been relegated from the Blue Square Premier and gone bust...

GP
13-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Any name put forward is laughed off most of the time anyway. :rolleyes:

For me I would take a punt on Pep.

:doh:

And you wonder why these suggestions are laughed off?

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 04:27 PM
Any name put forward is laughed off most of the time anyway. :rolleyes:

For me I would take a punt on Pep.

No thanks. He wont be at Barca for much longer anyway but would rather he didnt come here.

Go for Hiddink. Won more in a few months at Chelsea than Wenger has in 6 years

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 04:30 PM
No thanks. He wont be at Barca for much longer anyway but would rather he didnt come here.

Go for Hiddink. Won more in a few months at Chelsea than Wenger has in 6 years

Wouldn't mind Hiddink.

Again, another one I've seen laughed off in the past.

People are stuck in a loveless marriage with Wenger and can't let go IMO.

Cripps_orig
13-06-2011, 04:44 PM
Wouldn't mind Hiddink.

Again, another one I've seen laughed off in the past.

People are stuck in a loveless marriage with Wenger and can't let go IMO.

Its foolish to think that no one else can come in and do better than Wenger.

Im not saying someone definitely will but its time we took a risk. We are going nowhere under Wenger. We may have to take one step back to take 2 forward. Just need some freshness back in this club and move away from the laughing stock position that we are in atm

Marc Overmars
13-06-2011, 04:51 PM
95% of my Arsenal supporting life has been under Wenger, I'm just as apprehensive as everyone about life without him, probably even more than I'm willing to let on. The facts speak for themselves though, the team has not moved forward at all and fans are still talking about issues that were being discussed 3 years ago. Things have gone very stale and I find it a bit of chore now to support the club, the enjoyment has been stripped away because the team has such obvious problems. I can accept not winning because no one wins everything, I struggle to deal with the manner and extent we've contrived to throw things away though. I'd love it if Wenger turned it around and proved everyone wrong, I don't believe he will and I guess that's where the disillusion stems from and why I'm open to a change.

Özim
13-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Some will dismiss any suggestions put forward as they as so pro Wenger they can't see life without him. Personally I've had enough, his BS and inability to develop this team in 6 years is enough for me to say he's not up to the job and that's it's high time someone else had a go.

Just like his team he can't justify his salary to the fans, 6 million is a lot of money and we should be get more than we are getting for that, of course the board members will be happy as every season he's lining their pockets but frankly who gives a toss about them, it's clear they don't give a damn about the fans.

It's important a manager keeps in touch with what the fans want and makes them feel like their important, he does the opposite and makes you feel like you just don't matter (unlike his pampered players).

Changing manager may mean taking one step back before moving two forward but it's worth it IMO, what we get at the moment is as good as worthless.

Olivier's xmas twist
13-06-2011, 06:05 PM
I suppose not. Not since we've just been relegated from the Blue Square Premier and gone bust...

Never said it was that bad did i, just said if we got a new manager things won't go drastically bad will they.


Some will dismiss any suggestions put forward as they as so pro Wenger they can't see life without him. Personally I've had enough, his BS and inability to develop this team in 6 years is enough for me to say he's not up to the job and that's it's high time someone else had a go.

Just like his team he can't justify his salary to the fans, 6 million is a lot of money and we should be get more than we are getting for that, of course the board members will be happy as every season he's lining their pockets but frankly who gives a toss about them, it's clear they don't give a damn about the fans.

It's important a manager keeps in touch with what the fans want and makes them feel like their important, he does the opposite and makes you feel like you just don't matter (unlike his pampered players).

Changing manager may mean taking one step back before moving two forward but it's worth it IMO, what we get at the moment is as good as worthless.

This...


And there's the rub. Who would you suggest we realistically get? Lots of people say to get rid of Wenger but rarely suggest who should replace him and why.

Pep G/Gus Hiddink/Carlo Ancelloti/Jose M/ Owen Coyle. there are names out there but people want to believe the world will end once AW goes. All im saying there is life after Wenger.

Power n Glory
13-06-2011, 06:46 PM
Wenger is obsessed with the Total Football era and he's trying to replicate it with this team and it's not clicking. His replacement should be an ex player that has played under Cryuff or came from the Ajax set up. Would love to see Dennis return to the club. That's if he's any good as a manager.

Slacker
13-06-2011, 10:53 PM
Losing at home to Newcastle, WBA, Villa & Spurs: -12
Not losing at home to Man U and Chelsea, but winning instead: +6
Not losing at home to Man City, but drawing instead: +1
Beating Man City away after two crushing defeats in previous seasons: +3
Turning good wins against Liverpool, Wigan and Newcastle into losing draws: -6
Capitulating against shitkickers like Stoke & Blackburn without so much as a squeak: -6
Drawing at home with shitkickers Blackburn and Sunderland: -4
Losing to relegated Birmingham City in the Carling Cup final: -3
Fucking up the CL by sending substandard teams to away games: -6
Losing away in the CL to teams we stuffed 6-0 and 5-1 at home: -6
Coming 2nd in the CL group stages as a result.
Despite buying 2 new CD's, the central defence did not improve.
Despite buying a new centre forward, the forward line did not improve.
Despite being 2nd for 50% of the season & 4th for 4 weeks, still managed to come 4th.

The stats don't lie. Arsenal are in decline.

The worrying thing for me about AW is he would sooner we shelled out good money on average French players than average GHEL's. Surely a punt on someone like Roger Johnson at the end of last season would have been far better than spending rakes of cash on a player, albeit a France international, who has never encountered hoofball or shitkicking or GHEL culture in his career.

After watching his teams consistently fucking up against the likes of Stoke, Bolton, Blackburn, Hull, Sunderland and various others over the years I have to tip my hat to Arsene, because he keeps going back and getting his ass whipped and doesn't learn a fucking thing. That for me shows he really truly honestly doesn't "know".

Other than that I still hold some kind of belief. Why, I don't know... :shrug:

Toronto Gooner
14-06-2011, 12:03 AM
The stats don't lie. Arsenal are in decline.
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:

Boss
14-06-2011, 04:44 AM
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:

You're beginning to look very silly with your constant tactic of deliberately missing the point and ignoring explanations to try and continue a futile argument.

Pls stop, ty.

V-Pig
14-06-2011, 05:33 AM
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:

Ooh, ooh! I know why!


http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llxcq8kwUB1qdxgrdo1_500.jpg

selassie
14-06-2011, 06:07 AM
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:

George Graham's Championship winning defence or his mid table defence? :o

Özim
14-06-2011, 07:56 AM
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:
Because in the nicest possible way it was a ridiculous point, you only had to actually have watched them to see the difference.

With regards the information posted above, we watched the whole season....the stats just back up what we saw, a complete collapse and some embarrassing results (probably more than any other season I can remember)

Letters
14-06-2011, 07:59 AM
The funny is that when I showed, using stats, that the George Graham defence was not substantially better than the Arsene Wenger defence, the cry was "stats mean nothing". I wonder why that is?:shrug:

:doh:

Did you actually read my posts in response to your stats? Please do, then we'll talk. :good:
It's not that stats mean nothing, it's that they can be misused. You have misused them to try and make a point which is clearly wrong. I've explained why several times.
In response to Slacker I don't know what stat shows we're in decline. Did we get fewer points last year than the year before? Yes. But if you look at the points we got from 2003/4 on:

90
83
67
68
83
72
75
68

There are two years of clear decline and then a fairly flat line. There's no clear downward or upward trend. What there is is stagnation.

Coney
14-06-2011, 09:05 AM
:doh:

Did you actually read my posts in response to your stats? Please do, then we'll talk. :good:
It's not that stats mean nothing, it's that they can be misused. You have misused them to try and make a point which is clearly wrong. I've explained why several times.
In response to Slacker I don't know what stat shows we're in decline. Did we get fewer points last year than the year before? Yes. But if you look at the points we got from 2003/4 on:

90
83
67
68
83
72
75
68

There are two years of clear decline and then a fairly flat line. There's no clear downward or upward trend. What there is is stagnation.

If you plot that alongside the average of, say, the top 4 sides each season, it will take into account (partially) how good the opposition in the league was in that year. The 'points scored' on it's own means less than some think. If several of the lower clubs had a shit year and we scored more points, it does not mean we played better than a year where the lower clubs played well and we scored fewer points. Factoring in how the other top sides did helps to take that effect into account.

LDG
14-06-2011, 09:08 AM
We're not in decline.

We're just a bit shit at the moment. Emd of. Nothing that a few changes won't correct.

Coney
14-06-2011, 09:22 AM
We're not in decline.

We're just a bit shit at the moment. Emd of. Nothing that a few changes won't correct.

(tm)

Fist of Lehmann
14-06-2011, 12:34 PM
If you plot that alongside the average of, say, the top 4 sides each season, it will take into account (partially) how good the opposition in the league was in that year. The 'points scored' on it's own means less than some think. If several of the lower clubs had a shit year and we scored more points, it does not mean we played better than a year where the lower clubs played well and we scored fewer points. Factoring in how the other top sides did helps to take that effect into account.

OFMG. Someone who understands something! :faint:

You're right, league points total is not an absolute figure but a relative one. However, I just can't be bothered to run those figures. Is it still a wavy line?

Of course the only figure that people really care about is league position, and that goes:

1
2
4
4
3
4
3
4

Letters
14-06-2011, 12:45 PM
OFMG. Someone who understands something! :faint:

You're right, league points total is not an absolute figure but a relative one. However, I just can't be bothered to run those figures. Is it still a wavy line?

Of course the only figure that people really care about is league position, and that goes:

1
2
4
4
3
4
3
4

Which also shows stagnation, not decline. It's a flatline. And league position is also relative.
Points gap between us and the champions may be interesting too.
Quite what any of these show I don't know but none show a clear, straight line decline.

Fist of Lehmann
14-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Sure.

But the point is that league position does show you where you are relative to you opponents (if not how close) whereas bare points totals, taken in isolation, do not.

The difference is evinced the pattern, waviness in the points totals, bottoming out in the league position.

You're right though that neither pattern shows necessarily an ongoing decline.

Injury Time
14-06-2011, 12:57 PM
OFMG. Someone who understands something! :faint:

You're right, league points total is not an absolute figure but a relative one. However, I just can't be bothered to run those figures. Is it still a wavy line?

Of course the only figure that people really care about is league position, and that goes:

1
2
4
4
3
4
3
4


Which also shows stagnation, not decline. It's a flatline. And league position is also relative.
Points gap between us and the champions may be interesting too.
Quite what any of these show I don't know but none show a clear, straight line decline.

Lettuce don't suppose you have the cost of your season ticket(s) over this period....

Toronto Gooner
14-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Which also shows stagnation, not decline. It's a flatline. And league position is also relative.
Points gap between us and the champions may be interesting too.
Quite what any of these show I don't know but none show a clear, straight line decline.
Letters, the "decline" argument appears to be a variation of the "If you are not with me, you are against me" mentality. Specifically, "As Arsenal are not winning trophies every year, therefore they must be in decline".

I agree that the points gap between the champions and Arsenal would be interesting to examine.

latewinner
14-06-2011, 01:51 PM
Do you think we'll do better when Wenger goes? Really?

Benitez. I'm serious. We'd win the champions league within three years if he was our manager.
I'd love it if Wenger went right now and we hired Benitez

Letters
14-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Lettuce don't suppose you have the cost of your season ticket(s) over this period....

Don't think it's increased significantly actually. But then it was far too bloody expensive to begin with.

budesonide
14-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Letters, the "decline" argument appears to be a variation of the "If you are not with me, you are against me" mentality. Specifically, "As Arsenal are not winning trophies every year, therefore they must be in decline".

I agree that the points gap between the champions and Arsenal would be interesting to examine.

Wrong, sir.

Stagnating and spectacularly capitulating on an annual basis whilst those who you use to be clearly ahead of start catching up and the environment in which you use to dominate evolves without you adapting could be interpreted as decline.

It may be circumstantial and subject to interpretation; but when competition stiffens and you start been seen as making up the numbers -- it could be interpreted as "decline".

Would you agree then, that, we have just been making up the numbers the past few seasons?

Slacker
14-06-2011, 05:26 PM
I have watched Arsenal through good and bad times and even in the bad times there were virtually no seasons where we lost at home to a trio of weak (you could even say poor) teams like WBA, Newcastle and Villa (current guise). Losing to Spurs at home was not unusual though, although capitulations like last season, to my knowledge, have only ever happened under AW in recent seasons.

Based on those stats alone I don't think there is any doubt we are in decline. :crying: