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View Full Version : What exactly are we expecting to happen this Summer?



IBK
22-06-2011, 09:28 AM
I've been reading all the posts speculating on comings and goings at AFC, and the players that we have been linked with. I know the transfer window hasn't opened yet; that AFC rarely does its business in public and that we will never know where we are headed for sure.

But for a number of reasons - the manager's cautiousness/stubbornness; the board's conservatism when it comes to spending; the inevitable focus on keeping the likes of cesc/Nasri, and the fact that we have no guaranteed participation in the CL next season - and are undeniably a waning force on the world stage - I have serious misgivings about whether the business we do this Summer is going to amount to a tangible step forwards for our club.

My reasoning? First, even if we sell some of the deadwood, I do not feel that the 'core' of our first team amounts to a title winning side. We can say that it looked like one in February 2011 - but subsequent events belied this. We have 2, maybe 3 'world class' players to twice that many playing for our main rivals. And these rivals will strengthen.

Second - whoever we buy will almost certainly not fall into that class of 'oven ready' world class talent. Whatever the lessons from last season, our manager is too deeply wedded to his developmental ideals, and I cannot believe that he has lost faith with the likes of Song; Djourou; Sczesny; Arshavin; Chamakh...even if he has finally lost patience with some of his more conspicuous under-performers. These factors point to decent, solid, rather than real seasoned talent coming in.

Lastly, I do not think that we will enjoy the kind of marquee signing that IMHO the club desperately needs to shake off the negativity that has developed amongst fans, and clearly amongst our players - in order for next season to represent a proper fresh start. We have debated endlessly the players lack of confidence/character that has led to serial collapes. I feel that these are times where the team needs a real; psychological lift - that will only really be provided by a 'marquee' signing - something to give the players and fans real excitement and belief.

For me, it is worth 'breaking the bank' and paying, what, £4/5M over the odds for a proven 'name' even if this is mainly to try to show that Arsenal remains a confident, 'top class' club. Because we have been starved of this type of signing for years now (owing to a variety of factors) - and the fact that we have lost the winning habit also during this time has dented our standing and confidence badly.

The fact that this will almost certainly not happen suggests to me that the best we are going to see is a bit of pruning/renewal that might help stop the rot, but will stilll amount to just another stage in the end game of AW's regime.

Thoughts?

Flavs
22-06-2011, 09:31 AM
in response to the thread title as i cant be arsed reading all that

I expect nothing but media bullshit till next friday when i expect at his press conmference Winger to announce 3 new signings and express his sadness that at least 4 are going "but the time is right and we wish them well" i would also expect him to announce a new staff member and his aims for the season and to announce that both Nasri and Cesc are staying

After that i would expect more media bullshit and maybe one more top class signing and then we will go off to the land of love you long time

IBK
22-06-2011, 09:35 AM
in response to the thread title as i cant be arsed reading all that

I expect nothing but media bullshit till next friday when i expect at his press conmference Winger to announce 3 new signings and express his sadness that at least 4 are going "but the time is right and we wish them well" i would also expect him to announce a new staff member and his aims for the season and to announce that both Nasri and Cesc are staying

After that i would expect more media bullshit and maybe one more top class signing and then we will go off to the land of love you long time

I think that is more or less spot on - with the new signings being at the Gervinho level or below - Cesc continuing to be ambivalent on the pitch - Nasri doing a mini Adebayor (whether or not he signs a new deal - and the noises are that he won't - and we'll just run down his contract) - leading to another top four but no better finish next season that might be something of an achievement given the strengthening of our rivals, but will still amount to little more than keeping the bed warm for AW's successor.

Flavs
22-06-2011, 09:41 AM
I think that is more or less spot on - with the new signings being at the Gervinho level or below - Cesc continuing to be ambivalent on the pitch - Nasri doing a mini Adebayor (whether or not he signs a new deal - and the noises are that he won't - and we'll just run down his contract) - leading to another top four but no better finish next season that might be something of an achievement given the strengthening of our rivals, but will still amount to little more than keeping the bed warm for AW's successor.

Jesus wept :ilt:

Oh i also "think" we will switch to playing 3-5-2 or at least 4-4-2 and have 2 out and out strikers, if it works Winger will claim he has been readying the team for this all along. Like when he says playing Diaby and Walcott out wide is "to improve their decision making for long term success"

Flavs
22-06-2011, 09:43 AM
as an aside, i dont think its too much of a stretch that we have signed Benzema or someone of equal shock value either.

Master Splinter
22-06-2011, 09:47 AM
as an aside, i dont think its too much of a stretch that we have signed Benzema or someone of equal shock value either.

Falcao :good:

That was the catalyst for Andre Aston Villa leaving Porto. He was disgusted that they sold his star player.

Flavs
22-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Falcao :good:

That was the catalyst for Andre Aston Villa leaving Porto. He was disgusted that they sold his star player.

yes they sold him to Chavski, where Los Lobos is going

Japan Shaking All Over
22-06-2011, 10:25 AM
although I know who I would prefer could another striker heading to the Chavs

clear the way for a Drogba signing becoming a reality.......?

or does a huge STOP sign get created by Drogba's wages demands

AKBapologist
22-06-2011, 10:34 AM
Squabbling over a few mill per usual for our actual targets whilst throwing darts around a room and looking at what sticks. I've more or less given up hope of this window leaving us better off and the most depressing aspect of it all is that it's clear that it's more than just the manager failing the club.

Joker
22-06-2011, 10:48 AM
I can see another summer of broken promises, with Wenger resorting to searching in the bargain basement for players, rather than going for experienced, quality footballers who can come into the side straight away. Even some of the players we are being linked with (Gervinho for example) don't set the pulses racing, and aren't the type of signings which IMO will propel us up the table. Moreover, I see Wenger waiting too long, trying to get the price down as much as possible, and probably leaving it too late meaning we end up with few of our target signings (like what almost happened with Arshavin)

IBK
22-06-2011, 10:56 AM
Jesus wept :ilt:

Oh i also "think" we will switch to playing 3-5-2 or at least 4-4-2 and have 2 out and out strikers, if it works Winger will claim he has been readying the team for this all along. Like when he says playing Diaby and Walcott out wide is "to improve their decision making for long term success"

Just trying to be realistic, mate. Its not necessarily a criticism of the manager either - in fact arguably the target of the fans ire has been the one factor keeping the club effectively punching above its weight for so long. But while I think that there is the will and the wherewithal at the club to make modest improvements for next season, and improvements will be necessary, IMO just to keep us in CL football. I do not think that under an unchallenged Wenger we are going to show the boldness/confidence/decusiveness/foolhardiness (?) necessary to catapult the club back into the 'big time' - ie league winners or destination club for the best players around. I think this might be the plan over time - particularly with the FIFA fair play riules coming in - but not this Summer.

KSE Comedy Club
22-06-2011, 11:21 AM
I expect us to sell some of the shit players we have currently and then buy some new players that are better.

Its pretty much what is going to happen :shrug:

Olivier's xmas twist
22-06-2011, 11:56 AM
I Agree with the majority i feel we have deals done and will be named soon. I mean who out of the big 4 has done any major deals yet?.

Not expecting anyything big knowing AW. a big sigining will be a suprise or a bonus.

IBK
22-06-2011, 12:58 PM
I expect us to sell some of the shit players we have currently and then buy some new players that are better.

Its pretty much what is going to happen :shrug:

'Guaranteed' better or hopeful better?

IBK
22-06-2011, 12:59 PM
I Agree with the majority i feel we have deals done and will be named soon. I mean who out of the big 4 has done any major deals yet?.

Not expecting anyything big knowing AW. a big sigining will be a suprise or a bonus.

Are we in the 'big 4' anymore?

fari
22-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Are we in the 'big 4' anymore?

i think so...who do you think makes up the big 4?

GP
22-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Are we in the 'big 4' anymore?

Nah, on par with Accrington, I reckon.

Jesus, lighten up Marvin.

Fats
22-06-2011, 01:21 PM
We'll buy some average players that are playing in a shit league that ultimately will have no heart or sould for the club. We will be told all they need is a chance to prove thier worth.

We'll sell some terrible players that we all knew were shit some seasons ago that Wenger thought were going to be world beaters even though they would have trouble beating an egg.

Wenger will lie and tell us that after a difficult start these players need to bed in and all that bullshit.

Cesc will probably get sold the final day of transfers and Wenger will then say he had no time to buy replacements.

The Wenger bullshit merrygoround will carry on and on and on and on and on.

Cripps_orig
22-06-2011, 01:24 PM
Are we in the 'big 4' anymore?

No such thing tbh.

Theres the big 3 and then theres the rest.

We are in the latter

IBK
22-06-2011, 01:25 PM
Nah, on par with Accrington, I reckon.

Jesus, lighten up Marvin.

Its a serious question - nothing to do with pessimism.

IMO, the 'big 4' doesn't necessarily mean the 'top 4'.

If you are basing it on wealth/marketing power - then Manure; Chavs; Citeh and 'Pool probably rank above us.

If you are basing it on silverware since 2005 then the same applies...

CL pedigree?

Pulling power for players?

Serious question.

Joker
22-06-2011, 01:25 PM
We'll buy some average players that are playing in a shit league that ultimately will have no heart or sould for the club. We will be told all they need is a chance to prove thier worth.

We'll sell some terrible players that we all knew were shit some seasons ago that Wenger thought were going to be world beaters even though they would have trouble beating an egg.

Wenger will lie and tell us that after a difficult start these players need to bed in and all that bullshit.

Cesc will probably get sold the final day of transfers and Wenger will then say he had no time to buy replacements.

The Wenger bullshit merrygoround will carry on and on and on and on and on.

Unfortunately, I think there's every chance that this will happen. I've not been particularly heartened by the transfer rumours floating about, especially with regards to players like Gervinho. I think we need more proven quality, who have had some experience playing in a top league or at least fair Champions League experience, where they've shown that they can hack it, rather than simply standing out as a big fish in a small pond.

IBK
22-06-2011, 01:25 PM
No such thing tbh.

Theres the big 3 and then theres the rest.

We are in the latter

I'd agree with that.

Joker
22-06-2011, 01:29 PM
I agree, we're deluding ourselves if we even consider that such a thing as the "big 4" still exists. It's the big 3 now, and if Wenger continues to bemoan external forces (like City's new found wealth) and ignores looking at internal reasons why this situation has arisen (his own poor management in recent seasons) we'll continue to be left behind.

Cripps_orig
22-06-2011, 01:34 PM
The league is made up of 5 mini leagues

Theres the big 3 - 2 Manc clubs and Chelsea

Laughing stock - Us, Spuds, Liverpool for various reasons. Basically clubs who won trophies in the past but are shit now

Making up the numbers - Villa, Everton, Fulham, Bolton. Wont threaten the big clubs in the league and wont go down so do f all really.

Pub teamers - Blackburn. Stoke. Teams that cant play football but do enough to stay up.

The rest - fighting for survival

Darth Vela
22-06-2011, 01:51 PM
There was never really a big 4 tbh, a big part of it was Sky needing something to market on and to sell their annual 'Grand Slam Sunday', there were 4 teams that were usually in the top 4 spot but as that only really held for 3/4 years it was a bit of a weak claim. Now there is Chelsea and Citeh throwing money at anything that comes near them, Man U slowly declining (yes, despite winning the title...) and in need of rejuvenation and us and Liverpool trying to build something without the advantages of the other teams.

As for what I expect this summer, we'll see a few good players come in, probably of the right kind needed, and we'll see a few squad players leave. We'll be stronger next season but fuck knows if it'll be enough to stop us from doing our usual collapse, anything we do will be a little inconsequential as far as I'm concerned because we won't know if it's had any real effect until the crunch time at the end of the season, unless we win all our games from now until Christmas and end up 15 points clear then it might be an indicator.

selassie
22-06-2011, 05:01 PM
I don't really expect anything significant, just more projects, some like Gervinho are like High Profile Projects, others like Alex Oxlade are Young High Profile Projects.

I don't think Arsene has it in him to spend the money that will significantly strengthen our squad....and I think when it comes down to it we will not sign any of our first choice targets/PL targets because Arsene's morals will get in the way.

It will be the usual summer of

"We set a price on zee player and ve vill not pay a penny over zee value"

"We try for zee player but zee price is too high, zee market is inflated"

Blah Blah Blah, we'll scrape 4th place the season was a success, the players don't get enough credit for their achievements, Blah Blah Blah.

IBK
22-06-2011, 05:03 PM
There was never really a big 4 tbh, a big part of it was Sky needing something to market on and to sell their annual 'Grand Slam Sunday', there were 4 teams that were usually in the top 4 spot but as that only really held for 3/4 years it was a bit of a weak claim. Now there is Chelsea and Citeh throwing money at anything that comes near them, Man U slowly declining (yes, despite winning the title...) and in need of rejuvenation and us and Liverpool trying to build something without the advantages of the other teams.

As for what I expect this summer, we'll see a few good players come in, probably of the right kind needed, and we'll see a few squad players leave. We'll be stronger next season but fuck knows if it'll be enough to stop us from doing our usual collapse, anything we do will be a little inconsequential as far as I'm concerned because we won't know if it's had any real effect until the crunch time at the end of the season, unless we win all our games from now until Christmas and end up 15 points clear then it might be an indicator.

I think there was a big 4. This was created out of the Chavs and Liverpool encroaching on territory that we and Manure dominated prior to 2003/4. Almost as soon as it came into existance, however, we were on the slide. And Liverpool have traded places with citeh over the past couple of years.

Ironic really that our decline came as a direct result of the measures we took to remain a top team in the long run.

But where we are now is that we are not in the top tier in this league, and IMO if we expect to be signing players of the calibre of the best players in the top 3 this Summer, we will be disappointed.

That's not being pessimistic. Its being realistic. Taking an overall look at the situation with a little distance between us and our shameful collapse the sad thing is that of all the teams in the league, possibly in Europe, we made the best effort to try to remain properly competetive by an alternative method than simply buying success...and failed. Whether in the future we will have our own means of spending big enough to achieve success is another matter.

Alan B'stard
22-06-2011, 07:57 PM
expecting a few more squad players, an overrated overpriced kid or two and some promotions from the youth team.

Darth Vela
22-06-2011, 08:05 PM
I think there was a big 4. This was created out of the Chavs and Liverpool encroaching on territory that we and Manure dominated prior to 2003/4. Almost as soon as it came into existance, however, we were on the slide. And Liverpool have traded places with citeh over the past couple of years.

Ironic really that our decline came as a direct result of the measures we took to remain a top team in the long run.

But where we are now is that we are not in the top tier in this league, and IMO if we expect to be signing players of the calibre of the best players in the top 3 this Summer, we will be disappointed.

That's not being pessimistic. Its being realistic. Taking an overall look at the situation with a little distance between us and our shameful collapse the sad thing is that of all the teams in the league, possibly in Europe, we made the best effort to try to remain properly competetive by an alternative method than simply buying success...and failed. Whether in the future we will have our own means of spending big enough to achieve success is another matter.


Ironic really that our decline came as a direct result of the measures we took to remain a top team in the long run.

Never a truer word said, still time to rescue it imo but as it would probably be as a result of flexing our financial muscles it makes it look less and less like a consistently viable method. I still think it's provided a solid base for us to build a team that can compete for quite a while but unless we're actually able to build it we end up going round in circles again.

Alan B'stard
22-06-2011, 08:41 PM
on reflection the story about having to invest in the long run has been a lie. The stadium move has generated a lot of value its true. However that value has been divvied up by
1) players/management on ever increasing wages and
2) shareholders who, while never taking dividends out, were happy to keep the money in the club so their shares got boosted and they could sell out to kronke for a massive backdated payday.

very little of that value generated found has been invested in sporting performance.

KSE Comedy Club
22-06-2011, 10:17 PM
'Guaranteed' better or hopeful better?

Hopeful, obvious really.

Xhaka Can’t
22-06-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm expecting my outlay on beer exceeds Arsenal's net spend on transfers.

McNamara That Ghost...
22-06-2011, 10:21 PM
That's not a bad thing.

IBK
23-06-2011, 09:25 AM
on reflection the story about having to invest in the long run has been a lie. The stadium move has generated a lot of value its true. However that value has been divvied up by
1) players/management on ever increasing wages and
2) shareholders who, while never taking dividends out, were happy to keep the money in the club so their shares got boosted and they could sell out to kronke for a massive backdated payday.

very little of that value generated found has been invested in sporting performance.

I think that that asessment is a tad harsh. Firstly, it ignores the need to repay the stadium debt - something that the club is doing ahead of time. In April this year, the debt had been reduced to £147m from £350m.

Second - and this is the crux of the matter for AFC - the stadium project was intended to allow Arsenal to compete at the very top against the background of the EPL as it existed in the early 2000's. However, the unrestricted 'investment' that has since occurred at the likes of Chelsea and Citeh means that the market has made it impossible to compete at the top via traditional means. You either become a billionaire's plaything, or you live on the verge of bancruptcy - and the latter is something that only the very biggest clubs can do 'safely' because lenders have to have the security of the underlying asset base - in tems of fanbase as well as tangible assets.

It is undeniably the financially doped clubs that have had an adverse effect on us - by making it far more expensive for us to buy and keep players than if they had not inflated the market. So the club can't be wholly blamed for having to divert more of the stadium income into player's wages.

What we are talking about, essentially, is degrees of borrowing. And while I think we would all agree that our manager has been overly puritanical in his approach to the transer market, and over-indulgent as regards rewarding his 'project' players, I don't think you could go so far as to say that the aim of long term investment was a lie. It is an aim that has been taken over by events, and one that will only now bear fruit in the unlikely event of the FIFA fair play rules having any real effect - but only the most blinkered fans woiuld deny that long term stability remains a key aim of the club management.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 09:27 AM
I'm expecting my outlay on beer exceeds Arsenal's net spend on transfers.

Messi it is then

IBK
23-06-2011, 09:29 AM
Hopeful, obvious really.

Which is ssentially my point, mate (I wasn't being facetious). Our purchases will almost certainly be 'project' purchases rather than 'oven ready' ones. Players from different leagues who may or may not adapt. Players whom the manager feels he can develop and wring value out of.

I know that no transfer is guaranteed - and we all know that most spectacular failures. But a Ya Ya Toure; a Ballack; a Suarez; a Silva are purchases that you would expect to hit the ground running. Our signings will be much more suck it and see.

KSE Comedy Club
23-06-2011, 09:36 AM
Which is ssentially my point, mate (I wasn't being facetious). Our purchases will almost certainly be 'project' purchases rather than 'oven ready' ones. Players from different leagues who may or may not adapt. Players whom the manager feels he can develop and wring value out of.

I know that no transfer is guaranteed - and we all know that most spectacular failures. But a Ya Ya Toure; a Ballack; a Suarez; a Silva are purchases that you would expect to hit the ground running. Our signings will be much more suck it and see.

Actually, I agree.

Fair enough

Japan Shaking All Over
23-06-2011, 10:22 AM
both previous 2 posts on this page by Nasri make a lot of sense
thanks for that

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Which is ssentially my point, mate (I wasn't being facetious). Our purchases will almost certainly be 'project' purchases rather than 'oven ready' ones. Players from different leagues who may or may not adapt. Players whom the manager feels he can develop and wring value out of.

I know that no transfer is guaranteed - and we all know that most spectacular failures. But a Ya Ya Toure; a Ballack; a Suarez; a Silva are purchases that you would expect to hit the ground running. Our signings will be much more suck it and see.

I don't think they'll be completely 'project players', they'll be guys like Gervinho who have done well at a slightly lower level and are starting to come to their peak rather than Jenkinsons who still need a fair bit of work and development to come into the first team regularly, I wouldn't rule out one or two oven ready players but we all know how much they tend to cost, even the slghtly shit ones.

budesonide
23-06-2011, 10:28 AM
I think that that asessment is a tad harsh. Firstly, it ignores the need to repay the stadium debt - something that the club is doing ahead of time. In April this year, the debt had been reduced to £147m from £350m.

Second - and this is the crux of the matter for AFC - the stadium project was intended to allow Arsenal to compete at the very top against the background of the EPL as it existed in the early 2000's. However, the unrestricted 'investment' that has since occurred at the likes of Chelsea and Citeh means that the market has made it impossible to compete at the top via traditional means. You either become a billionaire's plaything, or you live on the verge of bancruptcy - and the latter is something that only the very biggest clubs can do 'safely' because lenders have to have the security of the underlying asset base - in tems of fanbase as well as tangible assets.

It is undeniably the financially doped clubs that have had an adverse effect on us - by making it far more expensive for us to buy and keep players than if they had not inflated the market. So the club can't be wholly blamed for having to divert more of the stadium income into player's wages.

What we are talking about, essentially, is degrees of borrowing. And while I think we would all agree that our manager has been overly puritanical in his approach to the transer market, and over-indulgent as regards rewarding his 'project' players, I don't think you could go so far as to say that the aim of long term investment was a lie. It is an aim that has been taken over by events, and one that will only now bear fruit in the unlikely event of the FIFA fair play rules having any real effect - but only the most blinkered fans woiuld deny that long term stability remains a key aim of the club management.

We were still selling our top players and not replacing them with the same quality or experience way before man city came into the picture. That has been Wenger's deluded approach always -- this has now been shown up to be as you refer to it "an overly puritanical" approach. This is what is to blame -- external factors are irrelevant because as a club we are still big enough to influence our own fate.

A former board chairman has said wenger has to be made to feel comfortable to spend money FFS. I mean if spending over the top ocassionally to address serious deficiencies in the squad so we are competitive is too much for wenger then who is to blame?

Xabi Alonso was one vital potential signing we let slip away because his club's valuation was a bit over wenger's valuation. I read a couple of million. Now here we are looking to flog denilson whose replacement I am sure will be the unseasoned ramsey and wilshere!

The blame mostly lies at wenger's door steps, though the board are partly to blame -- rightly or wrongly they have ceded the matters on the pitch and and those that directly afftect what happens on the pitch entirely to AW's whims.

Do you genuinely feel that it was not entirely within the club's control to make sure what has happened the past few seasons did not happen? Are we not better than that? Torres initially went to liverpool for 25mil -- could we not have bought a top striker like that for that sum?

We could have, but wenger doesn't want to "bankrupt" the club. :yawn:

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 10:32 AM
We were still selling our top players and not replacing them with the same quality or experience way before man city came into the picture.

You do remember another team in London having a bit of success with splashing the cash, right? Managed by a sharp con-man? Pragmatic but effective play? Anything coming back?

budesonide
23-06-2011, 10:36 AM
You do remember another team in London having a bit of success with splashing the cash, right? Managed by a sharp con-man? Pragmatic but effective play? Anything coming back?

ahh, the old abrahmovich came in and knocked us off the two-team race we used to enjoy with Man U, eh? My point exactly.

And didn't we almost slip out of the top four when the spuds suffered food poisoning? Where was Man City then?

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 10:46 AM
Nowhere, we were a bit shite that season is all.

I'm not entirely sure how Abramovich fucking up footballing economics relates to your point that Wenger was doing it before Citeh came along though, you're aware Chelsea spent lots of money BEFORE Citeh, right?

If your point was merely that Chelsea screwed up our plans for austerity whilst comfortably qualifying for the CL, then I agree 100% and apologise for any misinterpretation your somewhat ambiguous post implied.

IBK
23-06-2011, 10:53 AM
We were still selling our top players and not replacing them with the same quality or experience way before man city came into the picture. That has been Wenger's deluded approach always -- this has now been shown up to be as you refer to it "an overly puritanical" approach. This is what is to blame -- external factors are irrelevant because as a club we are still big enough to influence our own fate.

A former board chairman has said wenger has to be made to feel comfortable to spend money FFS. I mean if spending over the top ocassionally to address serious deficiencies in the squad so we are competitive is too much for wenger then who is to blame?

Xabi Alonso was one vital potential signing we let slip away because his club's valuation was a bit over wenger's valuation. I read a couple of million. Now here we are looking to flog denilson whose replacement I am sure will be the unseasoned ramsey and wilshere!

The blame mostly lies at wenger's door steps, though the board are partly to blame -- rightly or wrongly they have ceded the matters on the pitch and and those that directly afftect what happens on the pitch entirely to AW's whims.

Do you genuinely feel that it was not entirely within the club's control to make sure what has happened the past few seasons did not happen? Are we not better than that? Torres initially went to liverpool for 25mil -- could we not have bought a top striker like that for that sum?

We could have, but wenger doesn't want to "bankrupt" the club. :yawn:

Don't get me wrong - I am not trying to defend what personally I regard as an overly cautious/principled approach to the transfer market, combined paradoxically with an over generous approach to rewarding our project players - this was all part of the manager's failed youth project. What I am defending is the suggestion that selling the stadium project as the key to the club's ability to invest long term was a lie. I don't think it was.

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 10:56 AM
All Chelseas and Man Citys money has done is elevate them to title/trophy chasing status. That is no reason for us to go in to decline. That is all down to Wenger and his stubborn ways.

There can be more than 2 teams challenging for trophies.

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 11:00 AM
All Chelseas and Man Citys money has done is elevate them to title/trophy chasing status. That is no reason for us to go in to decline. That is all down to Wenger and his stubborn ways.

There can be more than 2 teams challenging for trophies.

You really don't see how two teams pushing the prices of players and their wages up into the stratosphere affects a club with a limited budget due to a large-scale project incurring large amounts of debt? Wenger has been part of why we've failed but he's also part of why we've remained 'relatively' competitive.

IBK
23-06-2011, 11:01 AM
You really don't see how two teams pushing the prices of players and their wages up into the stratosphere affects a club with a limited budget due to a large-scale project incurring large amounts of debt? Wenger has been part of why we've failed but he's also part of why we've remained 'relatively' competitive.

Very true.

selassie
23-06-2011, 11:06 AM
You really don't see how two teams pushing the prices of players and their wages up into the stratosphere affects a club with a limited budget due to a large-scale project incurring large amounts of debt? Wenger has been part of why we've failed but he's also part of why we've remained 'relatively' competitive.

Fair play that's a good point. Wenger has pretty much driven the club forward through his own financial restrictions/expectations but I suppose that's pretty much what you are stating.

budesonide
23-06-2011, 11:11 AM
Nowhere, we were a bit shite that season is all.

I'm not entirely sure how Abramovich fucking up footballing economics relates to your point that Wenger was doing it before Citeh came along though, you're aware Chelsea spent lots of money BEFORE Citeh, right?

If your point was merely that Chelsea screwed up our plans for austerity whilst comfortably qualifying for the CL, then I agree 100% and apologise for any misinterpretation your somewhat ambiguous post implied.

Shit enough to have been on the brink of not "comfortably" qualifying for a CL place.

Read my entire post again! And, whilst reading it consider how Abrahmovich and Man City screwed up football economics so much so even Birmingham could win a trophy!

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 11:30 AM
Shit enough to have been on the brink of not "comfortably" qualifying for a CL place.

Read my entire post again! And, whilst reading it consider how Abrahmovich and Man City screwed up football economics so much so even Birmingham could win a trophy!

Well, my comments weren't really relating to the rest of the post, just the first part that mentioned that Wenger was doing his thang way before City came along, which he was and part of the reason that didn't work was due to Chelsea.

In terms of the rest, it's very misleading to point to individual incidents like the CC final and say 'that could have been prevented by xyz' when the fact is the reason top players are top players is due to their consistency, the top players going into their peak cost a lot of money and, I think you know where I'm going with this, we can't afford to fill our team with them. I think there should be a balance between experience and youth, attitude and ability, the balance was wrong and that is down to Wenger so essentially I agree with you on that point, there's just a few things around it I don't agree with.

Incidentally, I think we could afford 25m for a Torres (Benzema?) now but back then? No chance.

Power n Glory
23-06-2011, 12:07 PM
You really don't see how two teams pushing the prices of players and their wages up into the stratosphere affects a club with a limited budget due to a large-scale project incurring large amounts of debt? Wenger has been part of why we've failed but he's also part of why we've remained 'relatively' competitive.

There is no denying the fact that money makes a difference in football but the sneaky Russian arrived and spent millions on Veron, Crespo, Mutu, Duff, Cole, Parker, Makelele, Germemi and co in the same season we had the Invincible run. They finished 2nd that year. Money is an issue, but the tipping point for Chelsea was the arrival of Mourinho. If they had stuck with Ranieri, things would be different. The real game changers are the managers. Tottenham used to spend millions but it took Redknapp to get them into the Champions League.

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 12:19 PM
You really don't see how two teams pushing the prices of players and their wages up into the stratosphere affects a club with a limited budget due to a large-scale project incurring large amounts of debt? Wenger has been part of why we've failed but he's also part of why we've remained 'relatively' competitive.

Man City and Chelsea spending has nothing to do with us letting leads slip be it a 2 goal lead, a 4 goal lead or one we took in the 98th minute etc

Thats just last season but im sure if we go down the last 6 years, we can see plenty of self made problems which Chelsea had f all to do with that cost us

Olivier's xmas twist
23-06-2011, 12:25 PM
The league is made up of 5 mini leagues

Theres the big 3 - 2 Manc clubs and Chelsea

Laughing stock - Us, Spuds, Liverpool for various reasons. Basically clubs who won trophies in the past but are shit now

Making up the numbers - Villa, Everton, Fulham, Bolton. Wont threaten the big clubs in the league and wont go down so do f all really.

Pub teamers - Blackburn. Stoke. Teams that cant play football but do enough to stay up.

The rest - fighting for survival

Yep i think your bang on the money with that. Where you have put us is spot on and even Wenger would tell you the same.

The Arsenal bored know were not part of the big 3 hence why there was no need to spend big these last 5 seasons. all we were was champions of getting 4th spot and once we finshed 3rd wich was a bonus for the club.

budesonide
23-06-2011, 12:31 PM
Well, my comments weren't really relating to the rest of the post, just the first part that mentioned that Wenger was doing his thang way before City came along, which he was and part of the reason that didn't work was due to Chelsea.

In terms of the rest, it's very misleading to point to individual incidents like the CC final and say 'that could have been prevented by xyz' when the fact is the reason top players are top players is due to their consistency, the top players going into their peak cost a lot of money and, I think you know where I'm going with this, we can't afford to fill our team with them. I think there should be a balance between experience and youth, attitude and ability, the balance was wrong and that is down to Wenger so essentially I agree with you on that point, there's just a few things around it I don't agree with.

Incidentally, I think we could afford 25m for a Torres (Benzema?) now but back then? No chance.

Fair dos.

However, there is nothing misleading about using those examples to make a point IF it is to counter a fallacy that Chelsea and City's millions have handicapped a club of our stature so much so we avoid strengthening the squad as necessary. That is also down entirely to wenger. He'd rather reward his project youths handsomely with the money.
As it is, we are now looking to flog them off for as much as we can weasle out of the clubs dumb enough to buy these failed youth projects. But that is the market today -- it is a seller's market; weren't we asking for 50mil for cesc? What is the moral high-ground here?

Anyway, we needn't fill the whole squad with 25mil players -- that is unnecessary and irrelevant.

AKBapologist
23-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Yeah, I personally think we do need several +20 mill players in the squad to get the strength in depth, quality and experience necessary to win the league or CL. I don't think I'm alone in this either (far from it if ex players and people from the club are to believed)

If you don't get how price and wage inflation has degraded the quality of our signings over the last 6 Years then your a moron tbh. And No, focusing on individuals or single results as proof big money doesn't make a difference is equally moronic.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 12:46 PM
All Chelseas and Man Citys money has done is elevate them to title/trophy chasing status. That is no reason for us to go in to decline. .

If that is waht you believe you dont know much about either business or modern football

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 12:51 PM
If that is waht you believe you dont know much about either business or modern football
Yeah cos the money they spent made us win 2 out of our last 11 games.

The money they spent made us lose to Birmingham in a fianl we should have walked.

:rolleyes:

We were comfortably above both of them for the majority of the season and only reason we didnt finsh above either is down to Wenger.

budesonide
23-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Yeah, I personally think we do need several +20 mill players in the squad to get the strength in depth, quality and experience necessary to win the league or CL. I don't think I'm alone in this either (far from it if ex players and people from the club are to believed)

If you don't get how price and wage inflation has degraded the quality of our signings over the last 6 Years then your a moron tbh. And No, focusing on individuals or single results as proof big money doesn't make a difference is equally moronic.

Equally, ignoring:

1). proof that you don't need to spend 'BIG' money to avoid collapsing season on season in the same fashion is an incomprehensible self-serving idiocy.

2). proof that you could spend 'BIG' money (the kind no one is referring to here on GW except those who farcically make it a convenient strawman in their argument) and end up with nothing is embarrasingly dumb.

Olivier's xmas twist
23-06-2011, 12:55 PM
If that is waht you believe you dont know much about either business or modern football

Well Cripps is not wrong really is he? ok so we may have looked close to winning the league, but we have bottled it the last 5 seasons. No amount of chavs and city spending made a diffrence to that.

all their spending did was, put us a place lower to where we were.

AKBapologist
23-06-2011, 12:55 PM
With cesc being out, alumina having a shocker and Arshavin, bendtner and chamakh in being our key goal threats for the majority of the season, it's outstandingly clear to those who nolonger overestmate that quality of our squad that we just didnt have the strength in depth needed to win anything this season.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Yeah cos the money they spent made us win 2 out of our last 11 games.

The money they spent made us lose to Birmingham in a fianl we should have walked.

:rolleyes:

We were comfortably above both of them for the majority of the season and only reason we didnt finsh above either is down to Wenger.

Thanks, thats what i thought about you :good:

budesonide
23-06-2011, 12:59 PM
With cesc being out, alumina having a shocker and Arshavin, bendtner and chamakh in being our key goal threats for the majority of the season, it's outstandingly clear to those who nolonger overestmate that quality of our squad that we just didnt have the strength in depth needed to win anything this season.

Wenger said we did! Everyone said we didn't and he should strengthen!

He said he knew what he was doing and he was doing it the HIS WAY!

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 01:00 PM
Thanks, thats what i thought about you :good:

As expected no reply.

AKBapologist
23-06-2011, 01:00 PM
Equally, ignoring:

1). proof that you don't need to spend 'BIG' money to avoid collapsing season on season in the same fashion is an incomprehensible self-serving idiocy.

2). proof that you could spend 'BIG' money (the kind no one is referring to here on GW except those who farcically make it a convenient strawman in their argument) and end up with nothing is embarrasingly dumb.

What the fick are you taking about?

The quality and depth of quality in the squad was not as good as we believed it to be. The quality of the squad has been in decline, and ON AVERAGE obtaining that quality has become more expensive.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 01:01 PM
As expected no reply.

i did reply, and you just qouted it. Silly boy

AKBapologist
23-06-2011, 01:03 PM
Wenger said we did! Everyone said we didn't and he should strengthen!

He said he knew what he was doing and he was doing it the HIS WAY!

Your no better than wenger if you believe we only need a few squad players to make us competitive tbh.

budesonide
23-06-2011, 01:09 PM
What the fick are you taking about?

The quality and depth of quality in the squad was not as good as we believed it to be. The quality of the squad has been in decline, and ON AVERAGE obtaining that quality has become more expensive.

No, the quality was not what YOU AND THE DELUSIONAL WENGER believed it to be. Wenger said it was his best squad EVER!

and petrol prices have ON AVERAGE been on the rise -- but I fuc*king get myself to work one way or the other (ADAPT) without bankrupting myself! And I make sure I get there on time -- otherwise you get sacked for repeated lateness. Hence the means of adapting has to be PRACTICAL BUT AT THE SAME TIME WITHIN THE REALMS OF THE REAL WORLD.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 01:18 PM
@ach

Sigh, ok look you say that Citeh and Chelsea having fun money doesn’t mean we will decline, well yes it does, not that alone, but when in conjunction with the stadium move and restricted spending it certainly would. And before you start talking about Manyoo not declining, they have by their standards, they are just lucky to be the biggest, best supported and arguably most famous team in the world. They also have big money, we don’t.

1. It pollutes the transfer market and as everyone is happy to point out we can’t compete

2. We can’t get the players we want as they will get sniffed out and go to the money, as you state it’s not about having any old jobber it’s about getting the right players, well sadly we are now 2 notches further down the prospective list than we were before (See SWP and Kompany)

3. You also then get the knock on of monies spent, as the spaz teams suddenly have cash having sold the likes of Damien Duff for £17mil. So….

4. Fixtures obviously get harder as the teams you used to ass fuck twice annually now give some back.

5. Players aren’t as “loyal” due to the fact their mate is getting paid 4 times the amount playing for someone else. (See Toure and Adebayor)

6. Our invincibles began to break up as Chelsea got rich, which means for the reasons above, we couldn’t replace them 1 for 1 so had to take another route, ours was kids.

7. Media, marketing, overseas merchandise sales, TV rights and so on all get more spread out as well halting income and exposure which we could only replace through player sales.

While these problems aren’t affecting only us, we felt it directly as we were the team replaced as were the Scouse, the only difference between us and them is they are out of the champ’s league despite having won it. What would you rather have?


Think of it as trying to pull a girl (Just try) you are doing well she is into it and it all looks good, then someone twice as rich, twice as good looking and with a nice car comes in and she wanders off in his direction. THAT is the effect the Romans and the Sheikhs have had on the league.

Competition is great as long as you aren’t the one suffering because of it.

Flavs
23-06-2011, 01:19 PM
No, the quality was not what YOU AND THE DELUSIONAL WENGER believed it to be. Wenger said it was his best squad EVER!


no he didnt, he said it was the most talented

budesonide
23-06-2011, 01:23 PM
no he didnt, he said it was the most talented

No, the quality was not what YOU AND THE DELUSIONAL WENGER believed it to be. Wenger said it was his most talented squad EVER!

and petrol prices have ON AVERAGE been on the rise -- but I fuc*king get myself to work one way or the other (ADAPT) without bankrupting myself! And I make sure I get there on time -- otherwise you get sacked for repeated lateness. Hence the means of adapting has to be PRACTICAL BUT AT THE SAME TIME WITHIN THE REALMS OF THE REAL WORLD.

:tiphat:

selassie
23-06-2011, 01:24 PM
no he didnt, he said it was the most talented

His way of saying, "my squad", "my handpicked players", "the squad with the most potential".

Just Wenger PR.

;)

Flavs
23-06-2011, 01:26 PM
No, the quality was not what YOU AND THE DELUSIONAL WENGER believed it to be. Wenger said it was his most talented squad EVER!

and petrol prices have ON AVERAGE been on the rise -- but I fuc*king get myself to work one way or the other (ADAPT) without bankrupting myself! And I make sure I get there on time -- otherwise you get sacked for repeated lateness. Hence the means of adapting has to be PRACTICAL BUT AT THE SAME TIME WITHIN THE REALMS OF THE REAL WORLD.

:tiphat:

;)

There is a big different to be fair

AKBapologist
23-06-2011, 01:33 PM
budesonide, running a deficit is not how you adapt to the structural advantages of bigger clubs. You either ask the fans to fork out more cash (lol), get more revenue from commercial deals (which isn't an option now) or bring an owner who's willing to invest in the squad.

Also good luck with 'adapting' (your doing nothing of the sort, getting mugged like the rest of us) to perpetually rising oil prices. :lol:

Ralpheroo72
23-06-2011, 01:33 PM
Fuck all as long as we have Wenger in charge. Man U just sign Young, and they are the Champions. We know we were shit, but have done nowt to address the issue, this is like every transfer window over again. Wenger out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/13882802.stm

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Fuck all as long as we have Wenger in charge. Man U just sign Young, and they are the Champions. We know we were shit, but have done nowt to address the issue, this is like every transfer window over again. Wenger out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/13882802.stm

We've bought Jenkinson tbf.

Oh...i see what you mean.

Joker
23-06-2011, 01:39 PM
Has Man City's (and Chelsea's) new found wealth adversely affected us? Yes, because they've moved up the table at our expense. However, can you claim that their financial resources is the only factor that has determined our stagnation? No, because many of the faults that this squad suffers from are entirely due to the players and the manager's poor coaching. For example, defensively we have been very poor, constantly conceding from set pieces and losing sloppy goals due to unforced errors (e.g. Squillaci and Almunia vs WBA, Koscielny and Sczcnezny against Brum). This is completely down to a lack of defensive quality and organisation, and the fault for this lies squarely with Wenger.

Sure, you could argue that if we competed with City for a defender, they would outbid us. However, there are plenty of defenders in the world who wouldn't cost the earth but who would stabilise the defence. Moreover, it's not likely that City would chase exactly the same defenders as us, given their defence is settled anyway.

Moreover, you can't blame City's wealth for our tendency to panic when holding onto a narrow lead. This stems from a lack of leadership on the field, and a lack of defensive organisation, which is the responsibility of the whole team (especially the captain), and in particular the manager, who should have drilled into the squad the importance of keeping our shape when trying to see a game out.

No one denies that City and Chelsea's wealth has changed the balance of power, but it's by no means the only reason for our stagnation. Wenger has made poor decisions in the transfer window, and his inability to instill a sense of discipline into the team has cost us infinitely more than anything City have done.

Alan B'stard
23-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.

gunsofashburtongrove
23-06-2011, 07:59 PM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.
:gp:

GP
23-06-2011, 08:11 PM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.

They've never been near the ground :lol:

Sirjackofwilshere
23-06-2011, 08:15 PM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.

The mental image of cripps and his mob marching around the emirates is making me lol tbh.

Power n Glory
23-06-2011, 08:28 PM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.

Would probably lead to a mass brawl! You don't want to see that. It's bad enough hearing about fans fighting each other in the stands. If Wenger doesn't show some ambition this summer, the atmosphere at the Emirates will get worse.

Cripps_orig
23-06-2011, 08:30 PM
The mental image of cripps and his mob marching around the emirates is making me lol tbh.
If i thought it would do any good then sign me up for a march tbh.

It wont though. Only people who can get rid of Wenger is the board and as we all know, they love him cos he makes them rich at the expense of the team.

Plus Wenger and the board know fans arent happy so no need for these Newcastle like protests

Alan B'stard
23-06-2011, 08:39 PM
The mental image of cripps and his mob marching around the emirates is making me lol tbh.

That's the effect I was going for, indeed.

Darth Vela
23-06-2011, 08:49 PM
Would probably lead to a mass brawl! You don't want to see that. It's bad enough hearing about fans fighting each other in the stands. If Wenger doesn't show some ambition this summer, the atmosphere at the Emirates will get worse.

:lol:

Actually, I quite like the idea of a mass brawl, might help get out a few frustrations and if it's publicised well enough we might get a few spuds joining in which might bring us all together. Violence IS the answer.

I think you replied to one of my posts earlier about Mourinho, he was a big part of it but I'm not so sure he would have gone if he wasn't promised all this shiny new stuff, then again he wasn't quite the name he is today so maybe he would have. Either way, it sucked as I remember the Chelsea game where Robben scored as the first time I thought, damn we're not that good any more.

Power n Glory
23-06-2011, 09:02 PM
:lol:

Actually, I quite like the idea of a mass brawl, might help get out a few frustrations and if it's publicised well enough we might get a few spuds joining in which might bring us all together. Violence IS the answer.

I think you replied to one of my posts earlier about Mourinho, he was a big part of it but I'm not so sure he would have gone if he wasn't promised all this shiny new stuff, then again he wasn't quite the name he is today so maybe he would have. Either way, it sucked as I remember the Chelsea game where Robben scored as the first time I thought, damn we're not that good any more.

We took our foot off the gas after the Invincible run. Wenger hit the heights and started relaxing. We always knew we'd never top such an incredible season. We also knew we had the stadium bills coming with the move so the league wasn't a priority. Focus went on the Champs League and now we're stuck in a funk because we've set long term goals and forgot about the here and now.

A mass brawl would be funny. But it would really humiliate the club. Maybe that's what's needed.

Marc Overmars
23-06-2011, 11:06 PM
IMO the biggest mistake we made was not strengthening when our stock was at an all time high after the unbeaten season. Flamini arrived on a free and RVP for a small sum. I know we had to think about the stadium which was on the horizon but we rested on our laurels too much. Before we knew it the Invincibles begun to disband and there wasn't anyone adequate enough to keep us challenging at the top. I just wonder what would have happened if we missed out on 4th in 2006, no CL income and the opening of the Emirates could have been a disaster. Dodged a bullet there that's for sure.

Ralpheroo72
24-06-2011, 07:19 AM
Id have more respect for people crying 'wenger out' if they were to do it with placards outside the ground on matchday.

Wont be long until that starts to happen, the boos on the final home game of the season werent because the pies were cold. You must be the Pro-Wenger camp, settling for the annual collapse come February. Also settling for the limp dick transfer window, where we sit and watch those above us strengthen, while Wenger haggles over the buttons in his wallet.

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 07:31 AM
In fact I was there booing.
My point was that we see a lot of internet warriors giving it large but not backing up their rhetoric with action.

Ralpheroo72
24-06-2011, 07:39 AM
They've never been near the ground :lol:

Been there many times, buy the shirt every year etc. But this club is in decline, and the buck stops with the manager, and he hasnt delivered for a long time. Is it wrong to want better for the club?

Ralpheroo72
24-06-2011, 07:43 AM
In fact I was there booing.
My point was that we see a lot of internet warriors giving it large but not backing up their rhetoric with action.

Im no internet warrior. Im sick of watching the way we are going. You could almost predict how our season will go.

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 08:00 AM
im not 'pointing the finger' at anyone as such

selassie
24-06-2011, 08:03 AM
In fact I was there booing.
My point was that we see a lot of internet warriors giving it large but not backing up their rhetoric with action.

Well Arsenal are trying to cut down on the Internet Warriors giving it the large. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision was made by PHW & Arsene, they are probably sick of us stupid, inpatient people.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Arsenal-fan-fury-as-club-close-down-official-Your-Arsenal-chat-room-article751993.html




Angry Arsenal fans were in open rebellion last night after accusing the club of trying to gag them.
Arsenal have announced plans to close down the chat room on their official website.


And hundreds of Gooners responded in fury to the decision to dump the “Your Arsenal” site from July 18.


Explaining the decision, the site moderator cited the evolution of Facebook and Twitter.
But a week after open dissent directed at chief executive Ivan Gazidis at a fans’ forum, furious supporters accused the club of attempting to gag critics after the forum became a focus for dissent at the lack of success.


One fan slated: “The forum will probably reappear when we eventually win a title. I reckon it’s now run by rose-tinters who can’t and won’t accept any dissent.”
Another added: “There has been ever-growing criticism towards the club and Wenger on here these last 12 months. The ‘Wenger out’ moans have also increased considerably.
“To criticise the club and especially Wenger on here a while ago was worth a death sentence but not at all nowadays. Quite the opposite in all honesty. Now the official board is slowly turning on the club and management. Maybe it’s their ‘get out’?”
And a third summed up the “short-sighted” mood as he said:


“To expect debate on Facebook or Twitter is unrealistic , it just will not happen.
“If the club don’t like what is being said then they should address the problem rather than just sweeping it away. All that will happen is people will find other ways to make their points felt and they might be worse for the club in the long run.”

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 08:06 AM
it was pretty naive of them to host a message board in the first place. Its now something to laugh at them about though I dont thin anyone with a brain would be demanding they resurrect it

Marc Overmars
24-06-2011, 08:08 AM
Someone should spam the board and point them towards GW.

selassie
24-06-2011, 08:10 AM
Someone should spam the board and point them towards GW.

I actually think we're quite kind on here, I browse other boards and it's carnage elsewhere, pretty much "100% Arsene Out".

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 08:22 AM
lets be honest - the arsenal-centic blogosphere is a highly distorted picture of the world, even by interweb standards.
Maybe the club have a point.
Watching 'Venger out, yaar' become the new 'Vee vill Vin' and Wading through the ramblings of post sky tv non attending 'fans' would do anyone's head in.

Marc Overmars
24-06-2011, 08:26 AM
Although there is an ever increasing sense of disapproval, I think the vast majority of fans are behind Wenger. That's the feeling I got from the games I attended last season.

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 08:29 AM
I sttill think he is the best choice for the job right now. Just about.
However I think what he is serving up isnt good enough and no longer has excuvses like youth or post stadium austerity to temper it.

and that its right that he and the board get some honest feedback on their performance.

Özim
24-06-2011, 08:46 AM
Although there is an ever increasing sense of disapproval, I think the vast majority of fans are behind Wenger. That's the feeling I got from the games I attended last season.
I'm not so sure, he has some backing but there's a lot of fans happy to see him move on now...after 6 years and last season's disastrous collapse they've had enough.

I've not been behind him for a while now, don't agree with his methods or policies and it was a disaster waiting to happen IMO, the players lacked the right elements and in some cases quality.

I'm also sick of his total BS, I find it insulting that he thinks fans are so stupid that they'll buy the stuff he comes out with personally.

selassie
24-06-2011, 09:03 AM
I sttill think he is the best choice for the job right now. Just about.
However I think what he is serving up isnt good enough and no longer has excuvses like youth or post stadium austerity to temper it.

and that its right that he and the board get some honest feedback on their performance.

I'm not so sure he's right for the job anymore if the criteria has changed slightly, I.E. the purse strings have been loosened a bit.

Arsene is a good coach, there's no doubting this but I wish he would be a bit more flexible in his approach, if he was I would back him 100%

The fact that he isn't and continues to make the same mistakes season after season makes me feel he shouldn't be here anymore.

LDG
24-06-2011, 09:11 AM
Football fans by and large live in hope.

Wenger is one of the top managers about and fans do see that.

What gooners are pissed off with, is that the same mistakes are being made season after season, and regardless of how good Wenger has been in the past, and could be if he got his head out of his arse, the voice of frustration grows ever louder.

We were questioning whether we had come to the tipping point this time last year, and it was still on the side of Wenger for the most part.

I would say it's tipped the other way now. Paying fans are just fed up with the embarrassment, the rookie mistakes and the Bullshit.

Most of all, they see their club moving further and further out of touch with John the gooner in the stand.

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 09:21 AM
here is my theory - while we re still trying to nickel and dime our way along and occasionally get a sniff of a trophy there is nobody who can come in and be better at arsenal than wenger at:
(a) putting a team together without a huge upfront cost
(b) wheeling and dealing
(c) selling the future to his loyal fans.

so, if we are still in austerity mode or - more worryingly - thats all we will ever be in since we are run as a business first and football cclub secoind... nobody can operate at this level an deliver the same bang for your buck. It would be nonsense to sack wenger and pretend that a mourinho or hiddink (say) could do that narrowly defined arsenal specific job better than him.

However if we are suppose to come out of hibernation and start swinging the bat, along the lines of 'heres a load of cash. dont worry about profits mr manager, just win me something or collect your p45..."

..then Wenger would have no clue what to do when he is buying 20-40million pound players and faced with moulding those egos into a back to back title / CL winning team. And I still rate the man, I just think he is not a fergie or Hiddink style man manager. He is a boffin/coach par excellance and thats will remain his comfort zone.

Annyway If and when the club gets to that regime change point, wenger will no longer be the man for the job - because the job itself will be a different one.

Joker
24-06-2011, 09:24 AM
I seriously don't think Wenger is the right man for the job. The point about us being run as a business first and a football club second is a pertinent point. I know the business side of things is important, and all clubs must take into account financial constraints if they want to survive, but the board, chief executive and the manager himself seem to place excessive emphasis on financial statistics as indicators of success, something that no Liverpool executive would dare do, especially as the fans treat Liverpool as more of a social institution rather than a business (as it should be)

IBK
24-06-2011, 09:28 AM
Its the £6M dollar question, really.

The interweb has always been a place where views expressed are more extreme than on the ground. My impression at matches is that there is huge frustration rather than open rebellion against AW. Because of what he has given the club, I would even say that those who have come round to believing that he needs to go in order for the clubs's fortunes to improve still somewhere deep down harbour a secret hope that AW can turn things around.

I might even go so far as to say that many Gooners might have remained on side if it were just that we hadn't won silverware for 6 years. They appreciate the stadium, and recognise that it is not straightforward to be in the CL each year. They also appreciate that nop 'conventional' club can compete financially with the Chavs, Manure and Citeh.

Where AW has lost supporters, though, is through his messianistic approach. There is a fine line between a revolutionary and a crackpot, and he has become like a medieval alchemist who once made a startling scientific breakthrough but now is convinced that he can turn base metal into gold - only for results to prove continually that the experiment has failed. And the worst of it is that he insists that his method is sound, and that we, and everyone else is wrong - when the truth is staring him dead in the face.

And it feels as though his repeated experiments have not only tarnished his own legacy, but that they (as opposed to the competition, or the need to finance the stadium project), have lessened us as a club. That is what hurts.

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 09:34 AM
arsenal ceased to be a social institution a long time ago. All taht guff about tradition, or even Charlie George telling you on a statium tour that we dont need a sugar daddy cos "we make our own money at this club" is just window dressing.

We are a property business with a lossmaking football club tacked on as an afterthought. Nothing more.

And just on that dont get too excited when you see our profits comparing favourably to United's. United make money out of football and our numbers are massively flattered by non repeatable property dealing. When you look at what our football club/franchise/whatever is worth its peanuts by comparison.

Marc Overmars
24-06-2011, 09:50 AM
The biggest issue I have with Wenger's managment is that we are still talking about exactly the same problems and criticisims we were 4-5 years ago. The team appears to be in no better shape and he has to be held accountable for that. Granted we're no worse than we were, but the consistent stagnation leads me to believe that he can't win in this modern environment.

Grebbo
24-06-2011, 09:51 AM
arsenal ceased to be a social institution a long time ago. All taht guff about tradition, or even Charlie George telling you on a statium tour that we dont need a sugar daddy cos "we make our own money at this club" is just window dressing.

We are a property business with a lossmaking football club tacked on as an afterthought. Nothing more.

And just on that dont get too excited when you see our profits comparing favourably to United's. United make money out of football and our numbers are massively flattered by non repeatable property dealing. When you look at what our football club/franchise/whatever is worth its peanuts by comparison.

True, but we got ourselves involved with some woeful football related commercial deals. Those deals are expiring within the next couple of years so you'd hope we can negotiate better.

I mean Spurs are getting 4x more in shirt sponsorship than us!! Thy've had one season in the Champs Lge FFS!! Our commercial deals are criminal.

Saying all this I hope Wenger doesn't have big money to spend - he'll only waste it. His big money signings are crap. Remember when he wanted to spunk £18m on Baptista!!

Cripps_orig
24-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Someone should spam the board and point them towards GW.

I'll do my best

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 10:49 AM
The biggest issue I have with Wenger's managment is that we are still talking about exactly the same problems and criticisims we were 4-5 years ago. The team appears to be in no better shape and he has to be held accountable for that. Granted we're no worse than we were, but the consistent stagnation leads me to believe that he can't win in this modern environment.

probably he cant but the club havent cared about winning in the modern environment for a long time. Sure they would like a trophy if it happens to fall in their lap but its not what they set their stall out to achieve

Alan B'stard
24-06-2011, 10:58 AM
those deals werent taht bad given when we got locked into them and how desperate we were for casah at the time.

Also I have to chuckle at those demanding we buy them out and get better ones - Nike and Emirates are having a laugh now since getting shirt/stadium deals like that now would cost a lot more - the price has gone up simple as that.

WE cant tear up those deals without paying them off if we dont want to get sued. And they would set the price to get out so there would be no point switching - all the gains from doing so would be eaten up by their early exit penalties. It like some fuckwit moaning about his fixed rate mortgage when interest rates subsequently went down or about his fixed tariff gas bill when prices collapse.

Olivier's xmas twist
24-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Although there is an ever increasing sense of disapproval, I think the vast majority of fans are behind Wenger. That's the feeling I got from the games I attended last season.

Well if he don't buckle up his ideas and change his ways in this window/season there will be less behind him.