Random Arsenal Shit (When it's not worth starting a thread)

[Letters]

Take the tactics out of the equation, he never was a great tactician but there was always a belief that he was the absolute best at developing players. That's the water to wine and I'm talking about.

I think that is fair point. Back in the day it was the accepted wisdom that Wenger was peerless at spotting talent and developing players.
I think the first part of that has some merit, his knowledge of the worldwide game was unparalleled when he arrived.
As for developing players, the assumption is that the manager should be credited with that. The influence of senior players is neglected.
Did Wenger develop Henry from a winger into a world class striker? The least you can say is Wenger saw potential in him and gave him the chace to develop.

I do think that Wenger was the reason that certain players came to Arsenal, I think latterly he has become the reason certain players leave.
As someone (possibly you) said, not many people are as good at their job in their 60s as they were in their 40s, and I think LDG is right about is dictatorship which is often a feature of people who have been in a position of power for too long.

[Letters]

Man U, Chelsea, Man City and now Spurs are starting too and Liverpool look like they will too.

Man Utd finished 6th last season
Chelsea finished 10th the year before.

[Özim]

Man Utd finished 6th last season
Chelsea finished 10th the year before.

That's one season though, there's always the chance a club will have one season out of the top 4, on the whole though they'll be there or thereabouts, usually when they drop out they bring in some top players to bring them back in.

[HCZ]

I think you're missing the point. In the early years, early 2000, late 90s, were you saying what you've just said today? Was Adams and Co getting as much credit for coaching the defence?

We had massive defensive frailties even back then and were criticised for it, as much as we were criticised for lacking a killer instinct.

Take for instance the season before the unbeaten season

Away from home we only won about half the games where we scored the first goal

We conceded quite a few goals and there was mention even that far back about our “soft underbelly”

What Wenger was given credit for was creating a new centre back partnership between Campbell and Toure.

What I’m questioning is the narrative that somehow we were considered the best thing ever back then. We were at times and we were very often quickly knocked off our pedestal.

The season before we did it Wenger was ridiculed for saying a side could go through the season unbeaten, and he received a lot of flack a season after winning the double and making claims that we were the new dominant force in English football that we couldn’t retain our title despite being five points clear in February/March.

[Power n Glory]

We had massive defensive frailties even back then and were criticised for it, as much as we were criticised for lacking a killer instinct.

Take for instance the season before the unbeaten season

Away from home we only won about half the games where we scored the first goal

We conceded quite a few goals and there was mention even that far back about our “soft underbelly”

What Wenger was given credit for was creating a new centre back partnership between Campbell and Toure.

What I’m questioning is the narrative that somehow we were considered the best thing ever back then. We were at times and we were very often quickly knocked off our pedestal.

The season before we did it Wenger was ridiculed for saying a side could go through the season unbeaten, and he received a lot of flack a season after winning the double and making claims that we were the new dominant force in English football that we couldn’t retain our title despite being five points clear in February/March.

You're still missing the point somehow. Even Letters gets the point I'm making. Most of the weaknesses in the team back then were payed at the players feet. The fans hardly ever questioned Wenger's ability. To argue he wasn't that highly regarded back then is what I'd call rivisionism. If you didn't hold him to a high regard in the 90s/2000s...maybe you're an odd case. But the general consensus was that as long as Wenger is at the helm we'd be a great team.

[Marc Overmars]

Back then it was said a lot that he’d have a job for life and not many would have argued given the quality he was able to deliver.

[HCZ]

You're still missing the point somehow. Even Letters gets the point I'm making. Most of the weaknesses in the team back then were payed at the players feet. The fans hardly ever questioned Wenger's ability. To argue he wasn't that highly regarded back then is what I'd call rivisionism. If you didn't hold him to a high regard in the 90s/2000s...maybe you're an odd case. But the general consensus was that as long as Wenger is at the helm we'd be a great team.

To use an old expression you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time

I’m not for a second saying fans didn’t think that of Wenger. I don’t remember saying fans felt we could have done better with someone else. What I’m saying is that the presumed infallibility did not exist in the way you’re saying

Fans loved him of course, they wanted him as manager of course, they would sing his name at grounds of course. I did as well but being critical and getting frustrated with him doesn’t preclude any of the above. Because it happened

I know that today we live in an age of demagogues and demons where to people someone is either the best thing ever or the scum of the earth. But believe it or not things were slightly more nuanced. Anyone who said Wenger should go would of course be the subject of ridicule, but saying “I wish he’d do this” or “I wish he wouldn’t do that” was commonplace

The players did get the blame but Wenger was blamed for picking the players

Before I had to create a new profile which much maligned defender was in my picture....I remember him being used countless times as an example that Wenger had a bit of a blind spot going with defenders.

[Letters]

Even Letters gets the point I'm making.

Even?

[HCZ]

Back then it was said a lot that he’d have a job for life and not many would have argued given the quality he was able to deliver.

Absolutely

And at the time of 2004, I don’t think there were many Arsenal fans who were anything but happy about that prospect

But there are degrees

Him being loved and fans wanting him to stay at the club as long as he wanted, didn’t make him beyond reproach

[Power n Glory]

To use an old expression you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time

I’m not for a second saying fans didn’t think that of Wenger. I don’t remember saying fans felt we could have done better with someone else. What I’m saying is that the presumed infallibility did not exist in the way you’re saying

Fans loved him of course, they wanted him as manager of course, they would sing his name at grounds of course. I did as well but being critical and getting frustrated with him doesn’t preclude any of the above. Because it happened

I know that today we live in an age of demagogues and demons where to people someone is either the best thing ever or the scum of the earth. But believe it or not things were slightly more nuanced. Anyone who said Wenger should go would of course be the subject of ridicule, but saying “I wish he’d do this” or “I wish he wouldn’t do that” was commonplace

The players did get the blame but Wenger was blamed for picking the players

Before I had to create a new profile which much maligned defender was in my picture....I remember him being used countless times as an example that Wenger had a bit of a blind spot going with defenders.

Just to reel this in, so in 2004, you thought Adams was the reason why Cole was a good defender? Come on now.