"Currants Bw..."

[Letters]

Other than knowing that you are a god botherer I had no idea as to your particular denomination.

I don't really identify with any particular denomination although my church is a member of the Elim which is more a group of churches than a denomination (although I guess that is splitting hairs a bit). Sorry to hear about your mum.

Historically at least the religious have always sold eternal reward and torment in the most underhand way, and even now you will get slippery Christians who are so lacking in shame that they visit the vulnerable, people struggling to take one breath after the next and promise them salvation if they square things with God.
I'm thankful that no one tried that with my mum or they'd have left in a black bag before she did.

Where do you see the harm in that? At worst the Christian is wrong but if they are then it doesn't make any difference anyway, but maybe it brings some comfort to the dying person. Unless 'squaring things with God' involves, say, them making a rather sizeable donation to their church in which case of course that's despicable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because it's manipulative and preying on people's vulnerability and fear near the end

It's an absolutely abhorrent thing to do

Unless someone is a practising Christian already and wants someone like a priest to pray for them, that kind of vulture like mentality should be illegal.

If you think it's fine to prey on someone who is scared and in pain than I'm sorry Letters but that's a sad inditement on you. Offering dying people the Pascal's wager is for me just a few rungs below stealing their shoes after they've expired.

[Letters]

But you only take that position because you think the Christian message and hope is false.
If you think it's true and you know someone is running out of time then how can you stand by and do nothing?

Obviously there's a line. A friend of mine died of cancer years ago. When he was getting ill I asked if he wanted my then minister to come and see him. He said no so I left it at that. In a way I admired him, he stuck to his guns when push came to shove. My grandfather though did come to faith towards the end of his life, I don't believe he did so under duress.
I have no idea how you can say it's preying on someone unless you stand to gain from it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No, Not at all....I would be equally contemptible if I tried to convince a devout believer that there was no God on their deathbed.

If someone wants the comfort of religion let them ask for it, don't like I say hover over them degraded and afraid and use that fear against them.

There are gains other than the purely financial, I'm sorry to say this but there is the twisted mentality amongst Christians that they have a duty to save the souls of others, it's not enough for them to believe what they do they have to prophlytise.

The example you have used is inoccuous enough because you merely asked someone if they wanted a minister and they said no.

What I'm telling you is that, you get bible bashers who work alongside hospitals sniffing around the dying. People who are dying slowly and painfully and are half stupefied from the pain and the drugs to alleviate the pain, and the irony is they latch onto these people because they think they are doing good by doing so.

Emotionally manipulating someone's pain and fear to force your ethos on them is I put it to you an act of wickedness.

I ridicule your religious beliefs because you can take it on the chin, I am not trying to convert you away from your beliefs because I have no wish to do so. I couldn't care if I was the only non believer in existence, however for many Christians it does not work that way.

From cradle to grave it's a non stop recruitment process, from Jehovas witnesses knocking at your door to dead eyed Mormon kids accosting you in the street. For a fit and healthy individual it's easy to bat them away, but when your lying in a hospital bed terrified of what happens next you are all too susceptible.

What I'm saying is if Christians or any other religious individuals want to preach and make promises to people,they should do it at a time when the individual they are trying to reach is more capable of rational judgement.

[Letters]

No, Not at all....I would be equally contemptible if I tried to convince a devout believer that there was no God on their deathbed.

What?! I'm not having that! Those two things are the exact polar opposites. One offers comfort and hope (you may think a false hope, but that's beside the point). The other is trying to distress someone who does have comfort and hope. How can you equate those two things?

There are gains other than the purely financial, I'm sorry to say this but there is the twisted mentality amongst Christians that they have a duty to save the souls of others, it's not enough for them to believe what they do they have to prophlytise.

Well yes, it's called The Great Commission. It was Jesus' last command to His disciples

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'" - Matthew 28:18-19.

It's not us who saves souls by the way, but we are commanded to spread what we believe. How would anyone else get to hear about it otherwise? And actually if the Christian message is true then why wouldn't someone who believes that want to share it? If you've discovered the best restaurant ever and, amazingly it's free, then what kind of arse are you if you go eat there every day and don't tell anyone about it? If you tell them and they don't believe you and never go to it then that's their choice but surely you'd want to share the 'good news', to coin a phrase.

What I'm saying is if Christians or any other religious individuals want to preach and make promises to people,they should do it at a time when the individual they are trying to reach is more capable of rational judgement.

OK, I can see a logic in that and there are certain illnesses like dementia when it's debatable how able someone is to rationally choose.
But let's say you've invented a pill which cures all diseases and offers people a long, happy, pain free life. Who are you going to give it to first, people who are in the prime of life or people who are sick and need it more urgently?
I don't think Christians have a ghoulish obsession with the sick and dying but if what we believe is true then there is a more urgent need to reach them. What could be more important?

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important" - C.S. Lewis

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What?! I'm not having that! Those two things are the exact polar opposites. One offers comfort and hope (you may think a false hope, but that's beside the point). The other is trying to distress someone who does have comfort and hope. How can you equate those two things?


Well yes, it's called The Great Commission. It was Jesus' last command to His disciples

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'" - Matthew 28:18-19.

It's not us who saves souls by the way, but we are commanded to spread what we believe. How would anyone else get to hear about it otherwise? And actually if the Christian message is true then why wouldn't someone who believes that want to share it? If you've discovered the best restaurant ever and, amazingly it's free, then what kind of arse are you if you go eat there every day and don't tell anyone about it? If you tell them and they don't believe you and never go to it then that's their choice but surely you'd want to share the 'good news', to coin a phrase.



OK, I can see a logic in that and there are certain illnesses like dementia when it's debatable how able someone is to rationally choose.
But let's say you've invented a pill which cures all diseases and offers people a long, happy, pain free life. Who are you going to give it to first, people who are in the prime of life or people who are sick and need it more urgently?
I don't think Christians have a ghoulish obsession with the sick and dying but if what we believe is true then there is a more urgent need to reach them. What could be more important?

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important" - C.S. Lewis

1) No it's not different at all, both are equally the same it's trying to push your beliefs on someone at the most inappropriate moment. Because you think what you believe has greater inducements, makes it no different at all.

2) I commend you for your intellectual honesty, that you freely admit that Christians see themselves as having a moral duty not just to believe what they believe but to convince other people for it as well.
And what a fantastic comparison you've made between religion and eating establishments, i quite agree preaching on the streets is very similar to handing out fliers for business....but i would think it's pretty poor form for a funeral business to start touting at someone's death bed.....maybe they are offering the dying the comfort of knowing their family are going to be getting a discount for the wooden casket their cadaver will be placed in

3) No i'm not talking about certain illnesses, i'm talking about visiting the scared and in pain who are near the end...and why? because people in such a state are necessarily more malleable....it's not just those with conditions that diminish their capacity. And you justify it by saying these people are more in need of your tender ministries......which seems to be a pretty glib way of justifying that you are working on the more suggestible.
If they had no need of what you seem to offer as "comprehensive insurance" when in health mind and body, than any deathbed conversion is manifestly false and made under the duress of terror.
So yes if a hypothetical dying man never went to church during his life, had never really felt the need to pay any attention to religion but knowing the end is near becomes panicked about the uncertainty that lies ahead to pounce on that to sell a product (which you've basically admitted through your response is what Christianity is) is one of the worst examples of opportunism there is.
You can argue that to spread the word of God is your christian duty and i don't disagree for a second, but you'll understand why this is one reason amongst many others why i find Religion in general and Christianity profoundly immoral.

[Goonermerree]

What?! I'm not having that! Those two things are the exact polar opposites. One offers comfort and hope (you may think a false hope, but that's beside the point). The other is trying to distress someone who does have comfort and hope. How can you equate those two things?


Well yes, it's called The Great Commission. It was Jesus' last command to His disciples

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'" - Matthew 28:18-19.

It's not us who saves souls by the way, but we are commanded to spread what we believe. How would anyone else get to hear about it otherwise? And actually if the Christian message is true then why wouldn't someone who believes that want to share it? If you've discovered the best restaurant ever and, amazingly it's free, then what kind of arse are you if you go eat there every day and don't tell anyone about it? If you tell them and they don't believe you and never go to it then that's their choice but surely you'd want to share the 'good news', to coin a phrase.



OK, I can see a logic in that and there are certain illnesses like dementia when it's debatable how able someone is to rationally choose.
But let's say you've invented a pill which cures all diseases and offers people a long, happy, pain free life. Who are you going to give it to first, people who are in the prime of life or people who are sick and need it more urgently?
I don't think Christians have a ghoulish obsession with the sick and dying but if what we believe is true then there is a more urgent need to reach them. What could be more important?

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important" - C.S. Lewis

Sorry letters, but I have to disagree with you there. I'm happy and thrilled for you that you believe in God, I don't, and I hate it when other people try to tell me about God. I know exactly where to seek out God if I wanted to, but I don't so leave me alone!!! Not you personally, but everyone in the past who has accosted me on the street or knocked on my door and even my sister. (Who has given up until she's a bit tiddly on the wine)

[Niall_Quinn]

Can you all please stop beating on my bitch!?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Can you all please stop beating on my bitch!?

don't bogart playah!

[Letters]

Sorry letters, but I have to disagree with you there. I'm happy and thrilled for you that you believe in God, I don't, and I hate it when other people try to tell me about God. I know exactly where to seek out God if I wanted to, but I don't so leave me alone!!! Not you personally, but everyone in the past who has accosted me on the street or knocked on my door and even my sister. (Who has given up until she's a bit tiddly on the wine)

We have a duty to share what we belief. It really isn't optional so it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.
But I agree there are ways of doing things. I personally don't like it when people knock on my door or accost me in the street so I wouldn't do that, any events in public have to be very carefully planned so as not to cause offence.
I don't see anything wrong in inviting a friend to an event which will have an evangelistic message so long as I'm up front about that and don't get them there under false pretences. It's up to them whether they come and, if they do, whether they respond to what's been said.