"Currants Bw..."

[Niall_Quinn]

We should also remember that these "hard man" dictators we have installed in various Islamic nations have brought secularism mostly against the will of the people. Islamists don't hate us because we are free (one of the most ridiculous arguments of modern times), they hate us because we have imposed our culture on theirs. Get rid of the Assads, Ghadaffis, Saddams and those societies quickly fall back into the hands of fundamental Islam because seemingly that's what the people want. And when Islamists arrive in Europe and Britain a large number of them want the same, regardless of the culture they are entering.

-------------------------------------------

Saddam nor Ghaddafi nor really Assad are even relatively seccular. Saddam was a sunni Muslim and imposed a very rigid interpretation of Islam on a shi'a majority....Gaddaffi equally saw himself as engaged in "holy war" against America.

These regimes don't form a barrier to Islamism they push people towards it, if you are living in a repressive regime and you are desperate for any kind of change the islamists are going to sound very seductive to you, the same way they are seductive to supposedly displaced morons living here.

I agree that it's not western interference that causes people to stone women, throw gays off building and murder teenagers for listening to western music....but it's an attitude that becomes acceptable because it's cultivated in the society within which they live. Once people become radical islamists i tend to agree that trying to understand them is pointless and i'd rather expedite their meeting with Allah, but the assumption that all Muslims are of this creed and that Islam is at it's core far more nascent than Christianity is the kind of nonsense perpetrated by those who fear Islam not because of it's extremist tendencies but because it's extremist tendencies are a rival to how they'd like to impose their christian views on people (you can see the way rich fundamentalist Christians try to influence African states like Uganda to impose religious laws with their money).
Yes Islam is an extremist religion, but it's not codified into people's DNA.....the people living in the middle east are mainly Muslim by default the same way many people were Christian by default in Western Europe up until the enlightenment.

For certain Men this conservative religion is a great comfort for them because it's manifestly patriarchal (unlike the imaginary patriarchy that the leftist feminists think exists in the west) and when they come and live in the west they try to cling on to the power and control they have over their wives and family that the law in their country of origin bequeathed to them, and this can lead to the type of things like honour killings etc.

However it should be remembered that Honour Killing is not confined to Islam and is known to happen in the Hindu and Sikh community in Islam, along with corrective raping etc. So in that sense the problem is cultural more than religious.

People are more than the sum of what stupid fairy tale they ascribe to, you can believe that the people bombed out of existence by the Russians and Syrian government in Aleppo were irredeemable extremists but that doesn't make it true

It would be interesting to see where I claimed people bombed out of Aleppo are irredeemable extremists. What I said was Islam is incompatible with Christianity because it is. Obviously there are always exceptions to every rule but in the main if we keep allowing Islam to transport itself into western culture it will end in conflict. This process is already underway on the European mainland. As disruptive, counterproductive and reprehensible as our policies have been abroad it makes no sense whatsoever to allow our societies to disintegrate as some form of penance. This is not about fear, this is about practicalities unfolding in front of our eyes. For those who choose to look at least. Every tag under the sun can be thrown out to criticise those who observe what is under their nose, racist, bigot, whatever you want, but it would be sensible to at least listen to what the Islamists have to say and how they are openly behaving. If this is a price you are prepared to pay to stay onside in terms of political correctness then be assured that not everyone holds the same opinion. There's no greater opponent than myself of the appalling overseas adventures of criminals like Tony Blair. But I won't apologise for him to the extent of having the society I live in slowly submerged into an alien and alien culture. Especially when that alien culture drags the society even further back into a new dark age. We have enough afflictions of our own without taking on a sack load more.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again equating every Muslim with an Islamist is the same as comparing Letters with Jerry Falwell

Who cares if Islam is incompatible with Christianity?. The west is secular not religious

Christian values of the Crusades and the Inquisition are incompatible with modern values, like i say there was a thing called the enlightenment and now the most illiberal and dangerous passages of the Bible are now paid lip service to.

The same will happen with Islam as soon as these repressive regimes that use the faith to impose their control are gotten rid of (and i think the best way to do that in part is end our dependence on the mineral slime collecting way beneath their soil).

Just for example how devout do you suppose Mo Farah is?....or Mesut Ozil, Granit Xhaka, Skhrodan Mustafi or the other muzzas that play for us. They probably don't drink or eat swine (and probably lapse as far as that's concerned as well) these younger generations are hardly the outliers here.

I haven't called you bigoted, racist or anything like that, i just think your argument is over simplified.

[Niall_Quinn]

Again equating every Muslim with an Islamist is the same as comparing Letters with Jerry Falwell

Who cares if Islam is incompatible with Christianity?. The west is secular not religious

Christian values of the Crusades and the Inquisition are incompatible with modern values, like i say there was a thing called the enlightenment and now the most illiberal and dangerous passages of the Bible are now paid lip service to.

The same will happen with Islam as soon as these repressive regimes that use the faith to impose their control are gotten rid of (and i think the best way to do that in part is end our dependence on the mineral slime collecting way beneath their soil).

Just for example how devout do you suppose Mo Farah is?....or Mesut Ozil, Granit Xhaka, Skhrodan Mustafi or the other muzzas that play for us. They probably don't drink or eat swine (and probably lapse as far as that's concerned as well) these younger generations are hardly the outliers here.

I haven't called you bigoted, racist or anything like that, i just think your argument is over simplified.

I didn't say you called me anything. I said the prevailing politics is to label anyone who objects to the mainstream narrative (or absence of narrative) of very real problems unfolding right now. Those who supported Brexit - stupid racists. Those who supported Trump - stupid racists. That's the simple argument. You're right, Britain to all intents and purposes is secular, albeit with a hat-tip to Christianity. However, our now secular beliefs and ideals are based on traditional Christianity, it's where we have drawn our values from. Of course we hardly adhere to those values but we do stay within a basic set of constraints that just about holds our society together. I doubt anyone could convincingly argue that our culture is not underpinned by Christianity. So yes, you have Muslims who adhere to the Muslim faith to the same degree as we might express ourselves as Christians, which is not much at all in practical terms. I'm not talking about these people, although they should be more worried than most about this rising tide of Islam in the west. They would be first under the lash and many are here to escape Islam and have no problems integrating. Is anyone arguing that all Muslims should be deported? The BNP perhaps, the KKK, or whatever these tiny minority groups now call themselves. This isn't a seriously held position by any significant political or idealogical movement, it's a smear manufactured by the left. The question is, should we continue to allow more Muslims into the west? The answer has to be no because Islam has increasingly become radicalised in those nations where it holds sway. Yes of course, partly because of our prior interventions, but regardless it is a stupid policy to open the door and allow people who hate you and want to destroy you to walk through it. It's quite amazing that such an obvious position hasn't been enacted by default. Instead it is tied up in trivialities conjured by oblivious fools on the left.

The sensible position is to halt all immigration from any Muslim nation while we are at war with Islam. I guess there will be those who deny this war even exists and there will be others who rightly point out that we helped start the war, which is true but doesn't relieve us of the fact the war is real. My position would be far less ambiguous than Trump's. There would be no 90 day period, it would be permanent and it would extend to all Muslim nations, no exceptions. It would also extend to any nation with lapse security policies that allow migrants and refugees to transit through their territory. Then I'd poke my nose out of the affairs of those nations and get on with my own business, because we have plenty to do that doesn't revolve around these issues. I know this isn't going to happen and we are going to be left in a situation where we refuse to mind our own business and then cry on about Islamic blowback. That's not a problem I can do much about. But it is heartening to see that more people here and in Europe are at least becoming aware of the growing threat we are facing. It's just a shame that more "moderate" (on the take) politicians cannot accept the reality they helped build and it may be left to more extreme candidates to act. That in itself will bring brand new problems but even so, we cannot continue to allow multiculturalism and all that other globalist bullshit a free hand because the alternative has serious flaws. Globalisation is flawed and destructive fro top to bottom, 100%. Every alternative is a better alternative. If we were smart we'd find a humanitarian alternative but we aren't even smart enough to get rid of government so there's a way to go yet until we figure this out in a sane and rational and equitable manner. Until then, we have to deal with what is in front of us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm sorry this is where we fundamentally disagree, Christianity is a thin coated veneer on western society.

The reason the west is far more progressive is because it's moved away from the dark ages of superstition and revealed truth, the theocratic control Christianity (mainly the Catholic Church) has over western society has very gradually over the last few hundred years been loosened and loosened. Blasphemy hardly exists within modern statue books and whilst American politicians have to go through the circus of pretending they are devout (even Trump isn't immune) to earn favour with a country in part founded by puritans.

The days of torturing and murdering apostates and even now applying biblical law to tell people who they can go to bed with and in what position has diminished. These Christian values you ascribe to the west are humanistic values and just because the Protestants advocated for these to get away from puritanical Catholic dogma does not make them especially Christian.

You can have a war on Islam if you want, but I'd suggest you could only do it by being as radical and messianic as the most extreme Islamist. The war between civilisations is the kind of fear mongering nonsense that people like Anders Breivik wanted to agitate for, and really despite your dislike of government and everything else I would tend to believe you are not that maladjusted.

It's all bollocks at the end of the day, do I think there has been too much bending over backwards to the hurt feelings of Islam by the regressive left? Yes of course I do. I think the media should have the balls to have published the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, The Danish cartoons etc......people only get up in arms about that shit because they are given the freedom to throw these kind of temper tantrums.
The vast majority would shut the fuck up if told to because they know ultimately where they are better off, and not because it clashes with their plan to bring about the caliphate in Western Europe.
Morons might tell you they want a caliphate, but why would you pay them any more mind than the middle class wooly minded university dipstick who thinks he's a communist.
It's the kind of shit that's fun to say when there's no danger of it ever happening.

[Niall_Quinn]

Many things that had no danger of happening are unfolding in front of you right now, at unprecedented speed. I wonder what it will take for people to reevaluate what is possible and what is not? Comfortable assumptions are no substitute for the facts on the ground. There are countless millions of Muslims in the west now and a significant portion is radicalised. In major European cities in Belgium, Sweden, Spain, France, Norway natives are fleeing as the Muslim population and birthrate explodes. Estimates for Brussels (the seat of the EU) have the Muslim population becoming the majority by 2030. The same trend is developing elsewhere as Muslin leaders calmly explain it is just a matter of time before their version of culture and law is implemented by democratic means. They also make it very, very clear. Europeans will be given the option to convert or else. Meanwhile our own leaders sit on their hands watching this, refusing to prosecute and covering up criminality and hate speech by Muslims yet jumping all over the slightest criticism by the native population. And ever growing list of concessions see us dispense with one tradition or value after another to avoid offending visitors in our own land. Political correctness gone mad? Or political correctness as a clear and present danger to the safety and security of the nation?

We do not have our war "on" Islam, we are engaged in a war that we first brought to them and is now being brought back to us and it's more than slightly naive to look around you and say no, this is not happening. I don't even say they are not entitled to their response. But I do say it would be foolish to ignore them or hope they are going away. Idiotic and dangerous open door policies, waves of people consisting of those in need, those fleeing for their lives, and what else? Will we also deny that the flood of immigrants harbours an increasing number of radicals that gratefully accept the free passage west? The shift in demographics, the birthrate, the useful idiots on the left, the greedy corporations who couldn't give a fuck about anything bar profit, the silent media, the ridiculously unbalanced courts, the hair trigger abuse for anyone who even mentions any of this? Is none of it happening? Is it make believe? Trumps says hey, we're stopping this for 90 days so we can figure out what the fuck is going on - the whole world goes ballistic. Fascist USA, the end of America, Trump is Hitler. This is how we now behave when a president with the support of the majority of his people undertakes his first and foremost role to defend the nation against enemies foreign and domestic. If we are so whipped that we can't even put a front door up and say, please knock and tell me who you are, then we're done.

We can wake up now and all engage in this and contribute ideas and solutions or we can be complacent and leave it to the inevitable figures that emerge to, as you say, practise what they preach against. But if we do the latter then we'll end up in the very nation these tree hugger, know nothing, impractical fools want to wish into reality without doing any work for it. Leave it to those who not only are prepared to act but are chomping at the bit and you'll have a nation where anyone minus a pasty white complexion will be victimised. Right now that is far, far from the case and suggesting we need to be more vigilant and more organised and secure in an increasingly dangerous world is in no way an indication the society has swung to the far right or is racist. If we want to defend this society at all then we'd best wise up and man up.

More things that there is no danger of ever happening will be happening in Europe in 2017. Watch out for them and examine the frequency of these "impossible" events. This, by the way, comes at a time when our economies are set to fall off a cliff. With reference to history, the setting for the collapse of empires is almost fully in place.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

When you say a significant portion are radicalised are you able to determine what radicalised means and are you able to give a number.

Ethnic diversity is always going to be bigger in cities, the Muslim population of Belgium on the whole is 3%. This argument about being outbred? What would you suggest to combat that?. So many people talk about the folly of Merkel bringing so many Syrians into Germany but why do you suppose she did that? It wasn't out of the goodness of her heart it was because Germany has an ageing workforce that isn't being replenished quickly enough.
Turks have been migrating to Germany for years so the principle is similar, and for all this Islam is incompatible with western values I would agree in so far that Islam as its practiced and enforced in the states where it is not just the faith of the land it is the law of the land I would agree, but that's not the same as saying Muslims cannot adapt to western values and this would only be true if you are saying that there is something genetically instilled in people of the Muslim faith to reject secularism, and even historically this is untrue as the actual caliphates of the Middle Ages were more secular than the western countries at the time and only since the more Puritan Wahaabist doctrine became commonplace that the faith was forced with the threat of the sword.

I do think there is a fundamental difference between a more nuanced reaction that says Islam currently is a rigid, conservative doctrine and we have been too keen to encourage multi culturalism rather than reinforcing western values of Liberty and religious freedom and we have made a rod for our own back. And this is the groundwork for a cultural invasion.

In America whites are being outbred by Hispanics, it's not a Spic invasion it's just they are probably less likely to use contraceptives and in honesty Hispanic women are more likely to be wives and home makers than their WASP counterparts.

Do certain Muslim leaders in Europe call for Muslims to bring about a caliphate? Yes and I do think we should deport those who do it and are not naturalised. But as I've said before the type of Muslims I used as an example many of whom make up the Arsenal squad are the vast, vast majority not the radicalised malcontents.

[Letters]

TPT

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38911818

[Letters]

TPT

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38911818

Oh. Didn't see the posts on the last page.

[Letters]

When you say a significant portion are radicalised are you able to determine what radicalised means and are you able to give a number.

You're asking NQ to back up rhetoric with facts? Good luck with that!

[Niall_Quinn]

Radicalised means adhering to the letter of the Quran and committing to the goal of converting or forcing everyone else to that letter. Last estimates I saw related only to the UK where 1 in 9 Muslins under the age of (can't remember, it was twenty something) were considered "devout" (brainwashed). Given the open border policy in mainland Europe and the fact the majority of immigrants arriving are young males of military service age it would be very unlikely the rate is lower and far more likely it is higher. In theory we may have allowed a million man army (or bigger) to walk into Europe unopposed.

Yes, that's why I mentioned the economic factor and the global economy. It all comes back to corruption and the rot and decay of our own ideals and cultures. We have allowed politicians to hand every aspect of our lives (in practical terms) to the banksters and marketers and this has resulted in the slow motion fall of the west. This is not a unique event, it has occurred many times throughout history and the wheel is turning again. So our war is on multiple fronts, I don't deny that. We have enemies foreign and domestic, particularly domestic. And whilst I agree that Christianity has been hollowed out I wouldn't totally agree that this, or any nation in the west, is secular. Money has become a religion in its own right. You examine the cult of money and you'll see every aspect of a religion firmly in place. The priests, the faith, the devotion, the rituals, the holy word, it's all there. People have forgotten who they are as they have made themselves subservient in all repeats to this religion. And it has been our weakness. Profit judgements made on families, women who can't afford to look after their kids, real life vampires permitted to feast on every member of society with absolute impunity. It's a horror scene direct from the pages of Stoker but because it is so familiar it is accepted as normal. Nevertheless, it is the source of our weakness on so many fronts. And perhaps it is right that the weak and inadequate should die off, but it's hard to expect individuals to look at it that way from a personal point of view. So we either fight or die. We need to fight off the vampires and the barbarians. And then have a rethink about what we built our cultures on in the first place, the basic humanities before great leaders fucked the whole thing up. As always, examine the role of government in all this. If I have to rest my case one more time I'll have to retire it.

I don't see any similarity between the Hispanics and Muslims. One is a racial typing the other is a religion that is based on a book that issues commands from God that elevate the Muslims to a superior status, make animals of those who do not believe and commands those of faith to stay separate from and teach (though never take teaching from) the inferiors. The message is not integration, it is conversion. There is no grey area here. And perhaps the majority of Muslims turn a blind eye to this yet still call themselves Muslims. But the radical majority always target that less fervent group first. Wherever you look, whenever Islamic radicals gain authority it is always Muslims who suffer first and suffer longest (mostly because no other fucker is even allowed in the place). And you can ask, well why does the majority put up with this? And I can answer, what does the word money mean to you? Or consumer? Or profit? And how could we allow such shite when we can clearly see the suffering and inequality it brings? Well religion is a powerful thing and those who enforce it do so with the utmost prejudice. It takes guts to stand against a fanatic, whether it be a bankster from Canary Wharf or a hook handed nutter from the madrassas. Hispanics are native people to the land who have roots in the same Christianity as us, mainly because we did what the Muslims are trying to do now and invaded by stealth and wiped out their cultures - lesson learned surely? There may be an element of payback for some Hispanics but I'm not seeing a global movement burning flags and stomping up and down the street mindlessly chanting. We're culturally compatible with Hispanics and they with us. I can't see any problem there, I don't see the very fabric of America being burned away should the Hispanics become a majority in some regions or across the nation as a whole.

When you mention the Arsenal squad I really don't think you are getting it. I have not said Muslims should be deported, discriminated against or suffer any sort of unjust treatment. What I have said is we need to stop bringing Muslims in here because a sizeable portion of that group harbour extremely bad intentions towards our society and culture and they have an agenda. You are speaking as if this hasn't already manifested. We have Sharia law in force in pockets of Britain today, did you know that? And lefties are over the moon about it. Cultural diversity, they call it. That's not what the Imams call it. They call it a chink in the armour, a foot through the door. I know the majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens and a sizeable portion of them are integrated, here in the UK at least. But the ridiculous deluge that has befallen Europe in the last decade has given zero opportunity for integration to occur and has instead led to direct cultural conflict. You surely agree with this when you look at what's happening in countries like Sweden, Germany, France, Norway? These are just the facts. We don't need theories and opinions, we can just look at the facts. What has the Arsenal squad or the Muslim living down the road who has lived there for 50 years got to do with this? Nothing. I'm talking about increasing numbers of radicalised Muslims streaming across borders and setting up fifth columns in their host (target) nations, then setting about the task called for in their holy book (which they believe to the letter) to radicalise every Muslim they encounter. And they have many ways of doing this, all based in outrage over this, offence over that, racism here, racism there. They themselves are of course the offensive racists, but that's an unthinkable reality for the lefties who just want to be loved by everyone and have a new iPhone (not necessarily in that order). Useful, useless idiots.

I find it strange that you have such an overt aggression towards Christianity, yet display tolerance for something so intolerant as Islam. This seems like a very strange inversion. Christians piss me off too, but I'm not worried these all talk and do fuck all holier than thou saps are actually ever going to do something notable. As you say, that time has passed. But Islam. These are no Christians. They say what they mean and they do what they say and there are absolutely no grey areas for the devout. None. Don't kid yourself, there is nothing ambiguous here. Religion of peace. Sure, why not? Provided you comply in all respects.

And we are letting them in.