Wenger - does he even understand whats wrong?

[IBK]

Fair enough. What I meant is that having not played to any real level - the attributes in question are unlikely to have been something that he learnt as a player. Then take his background and character - and you are searching for how they would form part of his make up.

[fari]

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

great points here. the team doesn't seem to have vocal leaders on the pitch. someone to gee the boys up from time to time.

[Toronto Gooner]

Fair enough. What I meant is that having not played to any real level - the attributes in question are unlikely to have been something that he learnt as a player. Then take his background and character - and you are searching for how they would form part of his make up.

I understand but the same could be said for Ferguson and Mourinho. Conversely, neither Pele nor Maradona were really successful as managers.

[LDG]

'Tis bizarre.

I mean, had brought in Petit, Grimandi etc. He kept Parlour as a mainstay in the side, kept the defence intact. Had he not appreciated those aspects, and was always of the view that it was technique over passion etc, these players would not have been around for as long as they were.

My view has always been that AW wanted to win the CL, and he thought that the only way to do that, was to set us up as a continental outfit. I think after the CL final against Barca, he thought that we weren't technically gifted enough to lift the trophy playing the counter-attacking game we'd become so profficient at.

In actual fact, it wasn't the football. It was purely the belief and tactics that failed to win us that match. Not that we weren't technical enough. Ironically, it's Chelsea, Utd etc winning things, using pace, power, althleticism and technique (something we had in abundance before he changed it all), whereas we've tried the near impossible. Barca are the only side that have been able to carry that off, with money and an already instilled philosophy of football. Even then, I still think Utd will beat them in the CL.

When you train so hard at one thing; pass and move, it is inevitably going to drain confidence from the players when they come up against teams that will happily sit behind the ball, having worked us out long ago. It'll come to the point where they don't believe in what AW is preaching, because it's all so clear on the pitch that we're not winning games we should be, and don't have any winners medals to show for it. Add to that the ignorance toward key features of any team (a defence/GK that can defend when required, a proper captain / motivator, and the ability to change tactics...all of which wouldn't affect his technical philosophy at all), and you're in one almighty shitstorm.

If he wasn't so stubborn, if he actually admitted he was wrong, he could change the way we play quite quickly, and it wouldn't take too long coach some EXTREMELY talented players to use a slightly different philosophy, drill the defence, and add some experience and quality.

He's created his own shitstorm, and I think he's so obssessed, he can't actually dig himself out of it. Pride? Stubborness? Selfishness? He's just become devoid of reality.

[IBK]

I understand but the same could be said for Ferguson and Mourinho. Conversely, neither Pele nor Maradona were really successful as managers.

But we're not dealing in absolutes, are we? I have explained why the relevant attributes are at the heart of SAF. Mourinho may not have played but he is a supremely astute and talented manager who like others is able clearly to assess the needs of the leagues in which he manages.

I am not saying you have to have played to understand...I am saying that AW lately does not appear to understand what is needed and his lack of experience as a winning player may be a factor here.

[IBK]

'Tis bizarre.

I mean, had brought in Petit, Grimandi etc. He kept Parlour as a mainstay in the side, kept the defence intact. Had he not appreciated those aspects, and was always of the view that it was technique over passion etc, these players would not have been around for as long as they were.

My view has always been that AW wanted to win the CL, and he thought that the only way to do that, was to set us up as a continental outfit. I think after the CL final against Barca, he thought that we weren't technically gifted enough to lift the trophy playing the counter-attacking game we'd become so profficient at.

In actual fact, it wasn't the football. It was purely the belief and tactics that failed to win us that match. Not that we weren't technical enough. Ironically, it's Chelsea, Utd etc winning things, using pace, power, althleticism and technique (something we had in abundance before he changed it all), whereas we've tried the near impossible. Barca are the only side that have been able to carry that off, with money and an already instilled philosophy of football. Even then, I still think Utd will beat them in the CL.

When you train so hard at one thing; pass and move, it is inevitably going to drain confidence from the players when they come up against teams that will happily sit behind the ball, having worked us out long ago. It'll come to the point where they don't believe in what AW is preaching, because it's all so clear on the pitch that we're not winning games we should be, and don't have any winners medals to show for it. Add to that the ignorance toward key features of any team (a defence/GK that can defend when required, a proper captain / motivator, and the ability to change tactics...all of which wouldn't affect his technical philosophy at all), and you're in one almighty shitstorm.

If he wasn't so stubborn, if he actually admitted he was wrong, he could change the way we play quite quickly, and it wouldn't take too long coach some EXTREMELY talented players to use a slightly different philosophy, drill the defence, and add some experience and quality.

He's created his own shitstorm, and I think he's so obssessed, he can't actually dig himself out of it. Pride? Stubborness? Selfishness? He's just become devoid of reality.

[LDG]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What a load of bollocks. Were Ferguson and Mourinho successful at the club they played at? [P.S. Trick question.]

In answer to the question: Does Wenger have a passion for the club? The answer is yes but not as a fan who buys tickets. He would have the same passion for which ever club he was managing.

Agree with you, when i asked that, i was not saying i thought AW never had passion i was asking a question in general

[budesonide]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

spot on mate.

i believe his players are actually starting to believe the entire system is flawed; hence wenger's constant public declaration in his belief in the team's mental strength and spirit and other bollocks.

cesc said "i sometimes wonder whether i was a better player at 18 than I am now".

tells you all you need to know. His own captain has lost faith in the system. Wenger's rebuttal was what gurantees cesc has that he'll win anything anywher else -- and that if cesc is frustrated because things hasn't gone as he'd like the solution is not just to pack it up. Utter nonsense! The lad has seen the same thing happen over and over again for six years with no sign of improvement; his academy collegues are winning trophies left, right and centre whilst his manager preaches hollow philosophies to all and sundry.

[IBK]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

I'll buy into that. Yes, yes I will.