Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[Power n Glory]

That was exactly what he was being asked to do when he played with Coquelin, and that's what he did

What he's known for is immaterial, Ozil was playing in the more advanced role and therefore Cazorla was playing deeper. Look at the fa cup final in 2015 or the quarter final against United and look at the interceptions Cazorla makes and then look at him bowling forward with the ball, no it's not his natural position but the two positions in front of the defence require a measure of defence because of the amount of space we leave when going forward.

And as for Ramsey needed on the right to protect Cazorla and Xhaka, why?....Elneny and Xhaka can break up the play as much as is required....what we want on the right is someone with pace, someone who can link up with Bellerin in an attacking sense.

I don't get this, the amount of moaning on here about how blunt we are as an attacking force and we want to blunt our attacking potency even more by playing someone who is far too slow and isn't good enough at passing to help us cause defending teams problems.

You're definition of a box to box midfielder is off. That's why this conversation isn't really going anywhere. It seems like you can't distinguish the difference between such players as Modric, Yaya, Ramires, Vidal, Xavi, Ramsey, Cazrola..etc. They all play midfield and all require and element of defence and attack. But some are more technical, others it's more physical.

[mastermind84]

That was exactly what he was being asked to do when he played with Coquelin, and that's what he did

no he wasnt, lol.

Coquelin won the ball higher up the pitch.

Ramsey is known as a box to box midfielder but doesn't have the attributes for it, he cannot tackle....he doesn't bust a gut to run back, and his ball distribution is not good enough to start attacks nor is he fast enough to make it tenable.

bruh, you cant be serious. Its almost like you don't watch our matches.

When Cazorla can score a goal while doing this in the build up, then you are right. Just find an example of it.

[Power n Glory]

no he wasnt, lol.

Coquelin won the ball higher up the pitch.



bruh, you cant be serious. Its almost like you don't watch our matches.

When Cazorla can score a goal while doing this in the build up, then you are right. Just find an example of it.

You know I'm not a fan of Ramsey but I agree with you on this one. Good example.

The below statement from HCZ is really off. His ball distribution isn't good but everything else is off. The energy Ramsey has is what enhances his game.

Ramsey is known as a box to box midfielder but doesn't have the attributes for it, he cannot tackle....he doesn't bust a gut to run back, and his ball distribution is not good enough to start attacks nor is he fast enough to make it tenable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You know I'm not a fan of Ramsey but I agree with you on this one. Good example.

The below statement from HCZ is really off. His ball distribution isn't good but everything else is off. The energy Ramsey has is what enhances his game.

Energy?....yes he has plenty of energy he makes up more ground in a game than anyone else

But his tackling isn't good, he cannot trap a ball, he isn't quick enough and his range of passing is inferior to those around him.

I don't understand why this debate has carried on so long if i am honest. With Cazorla it comes down to the fact that i think a player whose legs are going, a player whose range of passing is good but we have enough players in the side (namely Xhaka and Ozil) whose passing is just as good and who isn't getting goals....i think there is an argument to be made for phasing him out and obviously because i seem to have come on the board at the same time where the Cazorla fan club is operating this seems to be a terrible inference.

As for Ramsey, no i'm sorry i don't know how anyone can argue it's tenable him being in the side, when he neither has the pace or passing ability in order to mitigate for the clear problem we have.....attacking bluntness. To be an effective attacking side you need a good striker, but you also need to be able to switch defence from attack incredibly quickly....this is what we were able to do when we last won the title.....and now we get into a situation where we are far too slow getting forward when we have the ball giving the opposition time to get back and defend, making it incumbent on Ozil to thread through an impossible pass in the hope that strikers with a poor conversion ratio can make the most of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're definition of a box to box midfielder is off. That's why this conversation isn't really going anywhere. It seems like you can't distinguish the difference between such players as Modric, Yaya, Ramires, Vidal, Xavi, Ramsey, Cazrola..etc. They all play midfield and all require and element of defence and attack. But some are more technical, others it's more physical.

a box to box midfielder is someone who primarily can win the ball deep through interceptions or tackles and can then hold onto the ball moving it forward and then release it further up the pitch with an appropriate pass.

Again i don't know where the argument is coming from, this is not Cazorla's natural position i agree...but it's what he did when playing with Coquelin for half of the 14/15 season.

[Power n Glory]

Energy?....yes he has plenty of energy he makes up more ground in a game than anyone else

But his tackling isn't good, he cannot trap a ball, he isn't quick enough and his range of passing is inferior to those around him.

You're talking about his current form. He's off and bad but at his best he was our top tackler as well as one of top goal scorers.

[Power n Glory]

a box to box midfielder is someone who primarily can win the ball deep through interceptions or tackles and can then hold onto the ball moving it forward and then release it further up the pitch with an appropriate pass.

Again i don't know where the argument is coming from, this is not Cazorla's natural position i agree...but it's what he did when playing with Coquelin for half of the 14/15 season.

So what's the difference between a box to box midfielder, a central midfielder and a defensive midfielder? That's a broad description and there is an element of defence and distribution required from all central players.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're talking about his current form. He's off and bad but at his best he was our top tackler as well as one of top goal scorers.

Ah he was a good goal scorer that i can't argue with, but even at his best he was far too often responsible for losing possession by being ponderous on the ball and then ending up giving away a free kick because he panics and gives away fouls.
This is what happened when he played deeper, he was trying to play the ball out of defence and held on to the ball too long when he hadn't got the pace to outrun the person closing him down and didn't have the presence of mind to find a pass or put the ball out of play.

Putting him on the right is like Ljungberg without pace, Ljungberg was another player who if he wasn't scoring goals you wonder why he had his place in the side....Overmars was another one very similar to that.....but both had pace....Ramsey doesn't, it's a shame as i'm sure he's a hard working guy but i don't see what use he has to us without pace when he is inferior in so many other attributes as well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So what's the difference between a box to box midfielder, a central midfielder and a defensive midfielder? That's a broad description and there is an element of defence and distribution required from all central players.

a defensive midfielder is someone less likely to roam from their position, win the ball deep and distribute it

a box to box midfielder is someone who can win the ball deep as well as further up the park either from passing from defence, or intercepts or tackles and can take the ball forward to assist in attacking movements....can play high up the pitch but will run back to provide defensive cover.

A central midfielder is someone who plays in the middle of the park, is a midfielder that doesn't play on the flanks so is a very general term.

Of course the modern game means that players have to fufill roles that aren't naturally assigned to their position, for instance you will have seen Giroud making interceptions near our own penalty box, but the roles i have described above are the primary roles of the players.

[Power n Glory]

Ah he was a good goal scorer that i can't argue with, but even at his best he was far too often responsible for losing possession by being ponderous on the ball and then ending up giving away a free kick because he panics and gives away fouls.
This is what happened when he played deeper, he was trying to play the ball out of defence and held on to the ball too long when he hadn't got the pace to outrun the person closing him down and didn't have the presence of mind to find a pass or put the ball out of play.

Putting him on the right is like Ljungberg without pace, Ljungberg was another player who if he wasn't scoring goals you wonder why he had his place in the side....Overmars was another one very similar to that.....but both had pace....Ramsey doesn't, it's a shame as i'm sure he's a hard working guy but i don't see what use he has to us without pace when he is inferior in so many other attributes as well.

That has zero to do with the type of player he is. We're talking about the style of player.