Postecoglou the Muppet & other Spuds sh!t.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Tottenham have been accused of "insulting people's intelligence" by attempting to justify the chanting of the word "Yid" by their supporters.

The head of the Society of Black Lawyers says he will complain formally to police if Spurs fail to take action within a fortnight to stop the chants.

In a statement, Spurs said their fans used the term as a "defence mechanism" against anti-Semitism from rivals.

But Peter Herbert said this "wouldn't make sense to a six-year-old".

Oldham footballer Dean Furman, who is Jewish, has also told BBC Sport there should be a "zero tolerance" approach and fans using the chant should be immediately thrown out of stadiums. However, Piara Powar, executive director of the Football Against Racism in Europe organisation, has criticised Herbert for being naive and questioned whether he properly understands football.

Some Tottenham fans have historically referred to themselves as the "Yid Army", in reference to the club's Jewish supporters.

The term is used in a chant by some fans at White Hart Lane and can often be seen on flags and banners at the ground.

But Herbert told BBC Sport: "Clearly Tottenham have a distance to travel before they learn of the offence that is being caused.

"If you had a group of Afro-Caribbean supporters using the 'N-word', even as a 'defence mechanism', it would clearly be completely unacceptable. There are young supporters present when the chants are used.

"Use of the word, even in this way, could be seen by some as justifying other people using the term."

He has warned the north London club that unless they take action by 20 November, he will report "a racist incident" to the Metropolitan Police. Earlier on Wednesday, Spurs released a statement arguing that "real anti-Semitic abuse, such as hissing to simulate the noise of gas chambers, is the real evil and the real offence".

It continued: "Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. Our position on this topic is very clear. The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting.

"Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used, ie if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date.

"They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it a chant amongst themselves.

"We believe this is the area that requires a determined and concerted effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate."

Oldham and South Africa midfielder Furman backed Herbert by saying the term should not be used at all.

"I understand that it can be used as a nickname in some quarters, but if it's important to stop the use of the word then you can't use it either way," he told BBC Sport.

"You can't use it as a nickname or a chant for Tottenham because abusive chants will come back. The more they use it, the more opposition fans will use it. If it is banned altogether then hopefully we won't get the abuse at all. It needs to be tackled in the same way as racist chanting. "The sanctions need to be high and then it will be stamped out of the game for good. We need zero tolerance."

"The anti-Semitic abuse is sung on the terraces and it's vital that anyone caught singing these chants is immediately removed from the stadium.

"People will be singing those songs without the knowledge of what went on in the Holocaust, for instance. Knowledge is everything and the sooner we can get these songs stamped out of our game the better."

But Powar criticised Herbert for his intervention. "I think this is where Peter Herbert and the Society of Black Lawyers are naive," he told BBC Sport.

"They perhaps don't know football. To think 20 to 30 years of complex identity will be cleared up overnight is wrong. And I have to say that the Jewish community are split on their use of that term.

"Many young members say it's a badge of appreciation and gives them pride. Some older members says that's not true, it's a derogatory term and goes back to a period they don't want to remember."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20244204

Spurs.

[PGFC]

Tbf to the spuds, 'c*** Army' doesn't have the same ring to it

[Cripps_orig]

Society of Black Lawyers?

Nice name

[IBK]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20244204

Spurs.

This bollix really gets to me. Any racial 'slur' depends upon the context in which it is used. The N word has long since been appropriated amongst a section of the Afro Caribbean community in the States - it started as the same type of defence mechanism, is now used more out of habit - and while it remains offensive to some - can hardly be regarded as racist when used in the context that the appropriators use it.

Similarly, the word yid -when used by Spuds - or in fact the majority of football fans who use it - including us - is not being used in a racial context. It is being used in a tribalist way. I am sure that the Spuds used it originally by way of defiance - now it is generally a word that used in a football context to identify Spurs fans. I do not dispute that it is offensive to some - or that used outside a football context it might take on a very different meaning - but looking for offence where none is intended is the scourge of our times.

I don't accept that Spurs supporters referring to themselves as yids encourages anti-semetism - and I don't think that the vast majority of fans who might refer to the Spurs fans as yids would have anything in their minds but identifying - or even denigrating - them as Spurs supporters, not Jews. I think that the focus should be on real racial hatred - which surely exists - rather than trying to sanitise in a politically correct way - which this is - and which does very little, INHO to deal with the real problem.

[Kano]

i think you have to have a zero tolerance if you want to remove any sort of racial/cultural abuse from the grounds, otherwise there will always be some sort of angle some dodgy lawyer can wrangle if it goes to the courts.

football is pretty precious when it comes to change, probably because it is the national sport, so everyone is very protective of changing things. football technology is a similar case and sometimes the sport needs to be dragged into change rather than convinced.

this seems a bit heavy handed but i support their ideals and let's face it, will it really hurt anyone NOT to be saying that at a football match?

[IBK]

i think you have to have a zero tolerance if you want to remove any sort of racial/cultural abuse from the grounds, otherwise there will always be some sort of angle some dodgy lawyer can wrangle if it goes to the courts.

football is pretty precious when it comes to change, probably because it is the national sport, so everyone is very protective of changing things. football technology is a similar case and sometimes the sport needs to be dragged into change rather than convinced.

this seems a bit heavy handed but i support their ideals and let's face it, will it really hurt anyone NOT to be saying that at a football match?

I don't disagree with you in principle. I dispute that Spurs fansand most others are being racis by using the term yid.

Any zero tolerance starts with the fans themselves. Noone's going to get arrested for racism unless they are reported by fellow spectators. And most fans in this country will report behaviour that is overtly racist. Which is why we don't see the problems here any more that are still so prevalent overseas. Where does zero tolerance start and end, anyway. if I'm called a black bastard in jest by my mate who I've gone to the football with, should he be kicked out of the ground?

I don't knock zero tolerance per se - but zero tolerance does not stop racism. Education and development stops racism.

[Niall_Quinn]

The head of the Society of Black Lawyers

racist ****

[Kano]

I don't disagree with you in principle. I dispute that Spurs fansand most others are being racis by using the term yid.

Any zero tolerance starts with the fans themselves. Noone's going to get arrested for racism unless they are reported by fellow spectators. And most fans in this country will report behaviour that is overtly racist. Which is why we don't see the problems here any more that are still so prevalent overseas. Where does zero tolerance start and end, anyway. if I'm called a black bastard in jest by my mate who I've gone to the football with, should he be kicked out of the ground?

I don't knock zero tolerance per se - but zero tolerance does not stop racism. Education and development stops racism.

of course, you won't fundamentally change anything without education but the old mentality of attending football matches needs to be modernised a bit - it is also the reason why nowhere near enough black/asian people go to matches because there is still something of a fear factor about crossing certain 'boundaries'.

maybe they're going about this the wrong way but at least something is being done instead of just the usual procrastination from the authorities and if anything, it will give a kick up the arse to clubs and fans that this is being treated seriously, instead of just posters/t-shirts and banners. you don't always get the perfect solution the first time round, so hopefully this is just a move toward something meaningful. it is footballs job to stop it taking place in their grounds, like it is an employers responsibility to do so in their company. on a wider scale it comes down to schooling, governments etc to provide the real education to change the root of it all.

[Niall_Quinn]

This bollix really gets to me. Any racial 'slur' depends upon the context in which it is used. The N word has long since been appropriated amongst a section of the Afro Caribbean community in the States - it started as the same type of defence mechanism, is now used more out of habit - and while it remains offensive to some - can hardly be regarded as racist when used in the context that the appropriators use it.

Similarly, the word yid -when used by Spuds - or in fact the majority of football fans who use it - including us - is not being used in a racial context. It is being used in a tribalist way. I am sure that the Spuds used it originally by way of defiance - now it is generally a word that used in a football context to identify Spurs fans. I do not dispute that it is offensive to some - or that used outside a football context it might take on a very different meaning - but looking for offence where none is intended is the scourge of our times.

I don't accept that Spurs supporters referring to themselves as yids encourages anti-semetism - and I don't think that the vast majority of fans who might refer to the Spurs fans as yids would have anything in their minds but identifying - or even denigrating - them as Spurs supporters, not Jews. I think that the focus should be on real racial hatred - which surely exists - rather than trying to sanitise in a politically correct way - which this is - and which does very little, INHO to deal with the real problem.

They call themselves yids so we call them fucking yids. Oh no, wait. We don't call them that any more because some third party who knows fuck all about football wants to poke his nose in. And the use of "nose" in this context is being used metaphorically to signify unwarranted interference rather than prejudice.

So this bloke from the black lawyers club. Can I actually go around saying "black lawyers" or is that offensive? And if the latter, how come it's offensive when I use the word but certain other people are free to say "lawyers" without criticism?

[IBK]

of course, you won't fundamentally change anything without education but the old mentality of attending football matches needs to be modernised a bit - it is also the reason why nowhere near enough black/asian people go to matches because there is still something of a fear factor about crossing certain 'boundaries'.

maybe they're going about this the wrong way but at least something is being done instead of just the usual procrastination from the authorities and if anything, it will give a kick up the arse to clubs and fans that this is being treated seriously, instead of just posters/t-shirts and banners. you don't always get the perfect solution the first time round, so hopefully this is just a move toward something meaningful. it is footballs job to stop it taking place in their grounds, like it is an employers responsibility to do so in their company. on a wider scale it comes down to schooling, governments etc to provide the real education to change the root of it all.

True - I just wonder if they are after the wrong target when it comes to the Yid army? Strangely enough, that is part of a movement that has encouraged Jewish people to get behind football - to feel some sense of identity? Paradoxically a lot of black and Asian people support Spurs - as they do Arsenal. Given their percentage of the population and cultural background, I'd say both groups are fairly well represented amongst football crowds. Its black peoples' lack of representation in management that illustrates perfectly for me where the real issue with racism lies. Zero tolerance won't do anything to change this.