Match Reaction v Brighton (away).

[Letters]

Except I'm not changing anything. I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes. I'm not sure why this is even a debate any more.

Cognitive dissonance

Dude, for someone who is well aware of these psychological effects, you sure are prone to them.
You said loudly and repeatedly that Wenger was so inept that anyone would do better. Every time I told you that you were being ridiculous you doubled down.
And now you're completely changing that to "well of course no-one can do better because of the damage Wenger did, it doesn't matter who our manager is".



As I've said, Wenger doesn't get off scott free for the mess we are seeing right now, but the fact is the squad he left us with finished 5th last season on 70 points and got to the Europa League final. It was a solid enough base to work on and I don't believe for one minute that we'd be this bad this season under Wenger (which doesn't mean I want him back). So Wenger isn't solely to blame either.

I wouldn't say Wenger was a one trick pony but his ideas, once revolutionary, were soon copied and other clubs started doing things better.
The billionaires bowling in was a factor too. Looking back he always had certain tactical weaknesses, but when your squad is better and fitter than the rest you can cope with that. When they're not those failings become all too evident. That said, he did well keeping us in the top 4 when we didn't have much money to spend and I'm pleased he won the FA Cups, he deserved something to mark the latter part of his time with us and I wish he'd gone after the last one rather than staying that extra season. Some people were acting like Wenger was THE problem and as soon as he left all would be well, I never bought that although I did think a different manager would improve things and am baffled by just how bloody awful we are this season, we were never this bad under Wenger and we were much better than this last season.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger no doubt oversaw the start of the decline but since he left it’s all down to the duds we hired off the pitch, the continued poor recruitment and lack of any real strategy being the biggest factors.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure you know what that term means tbf.

What you're trying to do here is defuse the original premise by referring back to something I said in relation to the issue, but not related to the premise. Once the false equivalency is drawn you can then say, look, you were wrong about that latter, so you must be wrong about the former too (even though that doesn't work logically either).

I can go and watch the worst team on the planet (or I used to be able to) and loudly sing, "We're by FAR the greatest team...!" That has not made the team better in any way.

I said literally anyone could do a better job than Wenger. Believe it or not, I had not hired a supercomputer and run all possible permutations and projections prior to making that statement. I think we all secretly knew there might be somebody out there who could do a worse job, like a spud loving arsonist or Gary Neville, for example. So it's a little desperate to be using this benchmark as a last ditch defence for Wenger.

You then say Wenger was 5th, Arteta is 10th and so, Wenger is better than Arteta. Simple.

I wonder, if a hopelessly inexperienced Arteta could have done any worse than Wenger in those last few years? The residue talent of the declining squad could have propped Arteta up, as it propped Wenger, maybe. Maybe Arteta wouldn't have been so complacent with the defence. Impossible to say. Just as we can only predict what it would be like if Wenger had been appointed now, to rejuvenate a club in decline. For me, Wenger did far more harm than he ever did good in his last years. Deep damage that will have a long knock-on effect. If you'd put a complete rookie in his place at the time, could that rookie have done even more damage? I say that's open for legitimate debate.

That's why I said, at the time, we should have stuck with Emery. I think it will take several years for any one manager to genuinely repair and reverse Wenger's legacy. I didn't think Emery was all that, didn't think so when he was hired. But I knew he had a hell of a job on his hands, thanks to Wenger's negligence. In the end Emery couldn't change anything much so it's back to the starting line with Arteta. He'll have to be given at least 3 years, maybe more, to clear out the squad and build a new one, untouched by Wenger, that has the required character to compete at this level. He probably won't get those 3 years. I can already see fans suggesting he should be gone so a magician can be brought in to magic away Wenger's mess.

[Letters]

Not sure you know what that term means tbf.

Such a lazy tactic, you do this sort of thing so often. If you haven't read Black Box Thinking by Matthew Syed then I'd recommend it, he talks about Cognitive Dissonance at length.

The original premise was the claim that anyone would be better than Wenger. Couple of quotes:
"We know we aren't hiring Allardyce or anyone from that bunch - although they would do a much better job than Wenger, btw"
"Mark Hughes would be an improvement on Wenger, so if we ended up with a manager like Tuchel that would leaping fifty levels up from the rancid shit bastard we have in charge of wrecking the place right now."

You then say Wenger was 5th, Arteta is 10th and so, Wenger is better than Arteta. Simple.

No, I didn't say that. I simply said that we are now doing demonstrably worse than under Wenger. Ergo, the original premise was incorrect.

I'm not blaming Arteta for that as he's only just walked in the door, relatively speaking. Neither am I absolving Wenger of blame as this is still largely his squad.
But the squad he left us with did OK last year, it was an improvement on Wenger's last season. Something to build on. It's all gone on to shit this season.
Some people on here were acting like it was Wenger dragging us down - not playing the right team, playing people out of position and so on, poor tactics, not motivating the players, etc. I didn't entirely disagree, he was doing some of those things. So it followed that a new manager would improve things. Another quote:

"my solution to the problem is to sack him now, today. And get absolutely anyone in for the remainder of the season. It would energise the whole club and add a whole new dimension to the European challenge. I believe it would energise the squad too."

But that hasn't happened. We can't know how Arteta would have done had he been in charge for Wenger's last few seasons. Neither can we know how we'd be doing now if Wenger was in charge. My gut feel is not this badly, but it's impossible to know. The only evidence for thinking it would have been this bad is the last few seasons under Wenger. The points in each season were:
75, 71, 75, 63

Big drop in that last season and Wenger's worst season by a distance. So you could extrapolate. But it's hard to argue that it was start of a terminal decline when Emery got 70 in his first season, comparable with the previous 3 seasons before Wenger's last. It's only this year that the wheels have really fallen off in a way which they never did under Wenger.

Before Wenger left people were claiming that he was so inept that anyone would do better.
Now that has shown to be false the claim is that no-one could have done better because of the damage Wenger did.
You can't have it both ways

[KSE Comedy Club]

Auba needs to be benched, bring Martinelli in.

The guy clearly looks as if he is off at the end of the season and if he hasn't signed a new deal by now, then he should not be playing.

It's time we toughened up as a club instead of just talking about it.

Other than that, subs were shit, team was spineless, Arteta looks clueless.

Football is back - yay.

[Niall_Quinn]

The original premise was the claim that anyone would be better than Wenger.

LOL

That's what YOU inserted to distract from the actual discussion. I wasn't originally talking about anyone being better than Wenger, I was talking about the fundamental damage he did that has left the club in the shit it finds itself in today. YOU interjected with what you now claim to be the premise. Such a lazy tactic, you do this sort of thing so often.

[Letters]

I wasn't originally talking about anyone being better than Wenger,

You might want to tell that to the quotes from your posts...

[Niall_Quinn]

Btw, I'll stand right behind that Allardyce quote. If we'd have sacked Wenger 5 years earlier and hired Allardyce, I have no doubt the squad would be a lot closer to a coherent, competitive team than it currently is. Same with Hughes, or Coyle or any of the joke suggestions. None of them are good enough for the top level, but at least they aren't blind to the fundamentals as Wenger ended up being.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

Why do you still keep bringing this up?

I get your point, but it's over and done with and we are where we are.

Literally, no-one else cares about this except for you.

It's quite bizarre, like an incessant infatuation kind of thing

[Niall_Quinn]

You might want to tell that to the quotes from your posts...

Which quotes, the ones from years ago that you have used to avoid the point I was actually making?

"I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes."

And he did. And I blame Emery for not being able to do anything about it, and unless Arteta can somehow find a way then I'll blame him for failing too. But the CAUSE of the massive decline is Wenger, the man who changed our game entirely, made our defence on ongoing joke, let the quality of the squad slip into the gutter and refused to change as the humiliating blows from serious clubs rained down one after the other. Emery and Arteta haven't come close to making such a show of themselves.