France v Argentina, 15:00 BST, BBC.

[Cripps]

Spot on

So we all agree Ronaldo > Messi? Great

[Globalgunner]

There really is no debate. They are both the best players of the last 10 years. Objectively if you want to make distinctions. You can say that Ronaldo only scores goals. A facile argument to some but that really is the crux of it. Ronaldo scores goals while Messi makes memories. All we ever remember about Ronaldo are the goal scoring stats. When he was younger, at Utd, he actually did things that stuck in the mind. Like the 40 yard freekick that embarrassed Almunia and recently the overhead kick in the CL which was soon bettered by Bale. What irritates purists like me is that of recent the ONLY thing Ronaldo is concerned with IS scoring goals. He demands the ball everytime, waits in the box for the ball, still does those stupid stepovers that wouldnt fool my grandma and preens like an Cockatoo before and after each play. He thinks scoring more headers pens and tap ins makes him the greatest player ever. By that reasoning: Gerd Muller would also be considered amongst the greatest players ever, which he isnt. Only as amongst the greatest goal scorers ever.

When I think of Messi. I think of incredible standing start acceleration. Tiny legs whirling like a cartoon character as he weaves past players with the ball proverbially tied to his feet. I will remember the brutality meted out against him by bludgeon brothers like Pepe and Ramos. In years to come I will tell my grandkids of his teeth being knocked out in a Classico match and him ending the game bloodied but standing with his shirt held to the fans at the Bernabeu after scoring the winner with a magic individual goal. I don't care that Messi never won the WC he is no less a player in my mind because of it. Those things are extremely hard to win. Just like Cruyff never won it

Its about memories and I prefer memories to statistics. They are much easier to recall.

P.S. There is also no doubt Sampaoli is a certified nincompoop. Picked the wrong team in every match. Mascherano had no business being in that team and no space for Dybala?

[SMatthews]

You tell me. Ronaldo has done better than Messi in this tournament but you say both have been piss poor in this World Cup. Why?

I said both have been terrible in the knock out stages at every World Cup.

[Cripps]

There really is no debate. They are both the best players of the last 10 years. Objectively if you want to make distinctions. You can say that Ronaldo only scores goals. A facile argument to some but that really is the crux of it. Ronaldo scores goals while Messi makes memories. All we ever remember about Ronaldo are the goal scoring stats. When he was younger, at Utd, he actually did things that stuck in the mind. Like the 40 yard freekick that embarrassed Almunia and recently the overhead kick in the CL which was soon bettered by Bale. What irritates purists like me is that of recent the ONLY thing Ronaldo is concerned with IS scoring goals. He demands the ball everytime, waits in the box for the ball, still does those stupid stepovers that wouldnt fool my grandma and preens like an Cockatoo before and after each play. He thinks scoring more headers pens and tap ins makes him the greatest player ever. By that reasoning: Gerd Muller would also be considered amongst the greatest players ever, which he isnt. Only as amongst the greatest goal scorers ever.

When I think of Messi. I think of incredible standing start acceleration. Tiny legs whirling like a cartoon character as he weaves past players with the ball proverbially tied to his feet. I will remember the brutality meted out against him by bludgeon brothers like Pepe and Ramos. In years to come I will tell my grandkids of his teeth being knocked out in a Classico match and him ending the game bloodied but standing with his shirt held to the fans at the Bernabeu after scoring the winner with a magic individual goal. I don't care that Messi never won the WC he is no less a player in my mind because of it. Those things are extremely hard to win. Just like Cruyff never won it

Its about memories and I prefer memories to statistics. They are much easier to recall.

P.S. There is also no doubt Sampaoli is a certified nincompoop. Picked the wrong team in every match. Mascherano had no business being in that team and no space for Dybala?

Pound for pound one of the worst posts I have ever read

[Letters]

We're only talking about what Messi and Ronaldo achieved at International level because of the fine margins. It's so hard to separate what the two have achieved at club level because they've both won everything. Hence the focus on International football. Both have had their disappointments at International level but I think Messi will retire feeling slightly unsatisfied at that level because he didn't win anything and he's made it to World Cup and Copa America finals. He hasn't really performed at the same level we know he can perform at club level. It happens. Still a great player and will go down as one of the greatest.

You bring up George Best, his international career, the fact that playing for Northern Ireland meant he'd never be a favorite to win a Euro or World Cup, but fail to see the point being made about Ronaldo and Portugal. Regardless of the path taken, if George Best somehow won a major tournament with Northern Ireland, you have to give him some credit. No, it's not one man doing it alone but he played his part to help win it. Same applies for Ronaldo and Portugal. They've never won a Euro before and before Ronaldo, had never made it to a final. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany. They're not constantly churning out the World's best players. They're not utter shite like Northern Ireland but they've never won the Euros before. Argentina on the other hand have been churning out some of the world's finest for years and there is always that expectation that they will be a tough team to beat

Despite not playing much in the final, Ronaldo got the goal and assist in extra time that got Portugal to the final. Despite Portugal playing shite throughout the tournament, he got the 2 goals and assist that got them past the group stage. They would have gone out otherwise. Despite the opposition, those are big moments. We scored 3 goals with 3 assists.

We've seen the disappointment at Arsenal when we're playing really shit against opposition that aren't that great themselves and nobody steps their game up. It's funny how you're critical of the path taken to win the tournament. I've seen people make the exact same point about some of our FA Cup wins and you've shut it down. When I've criticized Ozil, you've brought up his FA Cup trophies and his World Cup with Germany. What's his record in those competitions? He's never scored or got an assist in any of the finals. FA Cup and World Cup. The biggest team he's scored against in the FA Cup is Everton where he got a goal and assist in the QF for our first FA Cup win. Other than that, he only got an assist against Coventry. Does that rub some of the shine off that FA Cup victory for Ozil? 2nd FA Cup he registered 1 goal and 2 assists. The goal came against Brighton in the 4th round. 2 assist against Reading in the semis. Is that something to write home about? Our hardest FA Cup win was the last one where we played Chelsea in the final, City in the semis. Ozil only registered an assist against Lincoln City in the 6th round. A team we battered 6 nil. The World Cup is similar. A goal against Algeria and assist against Brazil who were battered 7-1. A 90th minute assist. It's funny how far you've gone to analyse Ronaldo's record but have always been quick to dismiss the same point made about our FA Cup victories and Ozil.

Again, just to make things clear, I'm not saying Ronaldo dragged Portugal to win the Euros on his own but you can't deny he made a vital contribution and it's just another way to try and measure the fine margins between the whole Messi and Ronaldo debate. Neither have glowing CV's at International level but I think Ronaldo pips him slightly.

Actually agree with a fair amount of that.
Overall I'd agree that Messi has had a disappointing international career. I also agree Portugal wouldn't have won the Euros were it not for Ronaldo. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany but they didn't have to play any of those sides on their way to the trophy either. Their path to the final and the fact Ronaldo played only a bit part in the final does, IMO, make it a weak argument as the reason to separate Messi and Ronaldo.

People have made the same argument about Arsenal's FA Cup wins but the people doing so are the kind of bitter people who were using it as an argument to deny Wenger any credit for the win. And you may say I'm doing the same here, but their argument didn't stand up to any scrutiny. In 2014 Our semi-final and final opponents were admittedly easy games (even if we did make hard work of beating them!) but to get there we'd had to beat Spurs, Liverpool and Everton who all finished in the top 6 that season. We did get all those teams at home but still, it's hardly the easy route to the trophy I outlined when Liverpool won it that time.

Compare and contrast Portugal's win to Spain's 4 years previously, Spain won their group drawing with Italy and beating Croatia and Republic of Ireland. (Portugal finished 3rd in their group and didn't win any of their group games).
Then in the knockouts Spain beat France, Portugal and Italy.
That is an objectively tougher and more impressive route to winning the competition than Portugal's.

When you've criticized Ozil I've generally brought up his assist stats - I mean, that's his job and he's been doing it. Not sure if I've mentioned the FA Cups, I've certainly not argued he was instrumental in us winning them. I've probably brought up the World Cup because he was first choice in a team which won it which indicates a certain quality and their route to the trophy was pretty impressive too. So I may have used these things to argue that Ozi is quality but I'm not arguing here that Ronaldo isn't quality. I actually agree MO, there's nothing between them - I looked up the Balon D'Or and they've both won it 5 times and finished 2nd 5 times! Messi finished 3rd once, that's the only difference, but that is also a week argument to distinguish them.

I think the fact that Ronaldo has done it in two different leagues is a better argument, but I still wouldn't say there's much between them.

[Niall_Quinn]

Neither Ronaldo or Messi are fit to lace the boots of the genuine greats. It's only because they are playing today they are even considered. A ton of hype is loaded on them to keep the money bandwagon rolling along, and that's their real contribution. Otherwise they both play in a totally lopsided league and they probably have contract clauses that force their teammates to pass to them. Messi's a super technical player, one of the best technical players no doubt. But a "great"? With not a single decent international performance to his name? WTF? People need to get serious. And that cheating cunt Penaldo, who has disgraced the game for every moment he's played. A great? Fuck off. He wouldn't have even got into the great teams of the past. It;s almost as if nobody he seen Pele or Zico play football. Or more recently, the real Ronaldo. Or a string of other greats. Sure, if you ignore all of them Messi and Ronaldo are #1 and #2.

[Cripps]

[Niall_Quinn]

Homosexual attraction is not part of the calculation, so there goes your whole case.

[Cripps]

that would work if I wasn't completely against it.

[Power n Glory]

Actually agree with a fair amount of that.
Overall I'd agree that Messi has had a disappointing international career. I also agree Portugal wouldn't have won the Euros were it not for Ronaldo. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany but they didn't have to play any of those sides on their way to the trophy either. Their path to the final and the fact Ronaldo played only a bit part in the final does, IMO, make it a weak argument as the reason to separate Messi and Ronaldo.

People have made the same argument about Arsenal's FA Cup wins but the people doing so are the kind of bitter people who were using it as an argument to deny Wenger any credit for the win. And you may say I'm doing the same here, but their argument didn't stand up to any scrutiny. In 2014 Our semi-final and final opponents were admittedly easy games (even if we did make hard work of beating them!) but to get there we'd had to beat Spurs, Liverpool and Everton who all finished in the top 6 that season. We did get all those teams at home but still, it's hardly the easy route to the trophy I outlined when Liverpool won it that time.

Compare and contrast Portugal's win to Spain's 4 years previously, Spain won their group drawing with Italy and beating Croatia and Republic of Ireland. (Portugal finished 3rd in their group and didn't win any of their group games).
Then in the knockouts Spain beat France, Portugal and Italy.
That is an objectively tougher and more impressive route to winning the competition than Portugal's.

When you've criticized Ozil I've generally brought up his assist stats - I mean, that's his job and he's been doing it. Not sure if I've mentioned the FA Cups, I've certainly not argued he was instrumental in us winning them. I've probably brought up the World Cup because he was first choice in a team which won it which indicates a certain quality and their route to the trophy was pretty impressive too. So I may have used these things to argue that Ozi is quality but I'm not arguing here that Ronaldo isn't quality. I actually agree MO, there's nothing between them - I looked up the Balon D'Or and they've both won it 5 times and finished 2nd 5 times! Messi finished 3rd once, that's the only difference, but that is also a week argument to distinguish them.

I think the fact that Ronaldo has done it in two different leagues is a better argument, but I still wouldn't say there's much between them.

That's been my overall argument. Glad we can agree.

The whole international debate is just to split hairs. But add that to what I've argued about about Ronaldo proving himself in the Prem as well as the La Liga, as you've said at the end, I think that shows that Ronaldo has proven that he's able to adapt. Not saying Messi can't but he's only ever played for one club where he's always been king and treated as such. Ronaldo had to prove himself at Utd under Fergie, earn the respect of the press who thought he was just another show-pony 'johnny foreigner'. After proving himself with Utd, he had to live up to being the World's most expensive player at Real Madrid. I honestly thought he'd flop and not surpass the last couple of seasons he put in at Utd. I was wrong. But we've seen it happen to so many others. After a massive transfer fee has been paid for them they often fail to live up to the hype. To Ronaldo's credit, he lived up to the hype.

I still think Messi is the better player overall but I think Ronaldo has gone through way more hurdles and conquered them compared to Messi. Mentally that is. I'm not sure how Messi would cope with moving to another league, having that massive price tag over him and having to live up to the hype whilst stamping his dominance in a dressing room full of egos. Not saying he can't do it, he just hasn't done it to say he can. International football is a different beast, but I have slight doubts about how he'd do because of what I've seen of him at International level. I guess we'll never know.