What will you be watching on TV tonight?

[Kano]

Ha Strange Bias says you, from a man plugging the work of Jon Pilger.

The thing is I have never pretended America aren't guilty of a lot of malfeasance, unlike Pilger i don't believe they are the beginning and end of all the problems in the world to subscribe to the intractable Noam Chomsky world view.

I am able to see both sides, I find it amusing the reverence given by American politicians to a clear war criminal in Henry Kissinger, it's hypocrisy over Cuba, the protracted Vietnam War which was totally about making money for private defence contractors, Iran-Contra.

Unlike Pilger though I don't equally see the Russians as victims of aggressive expansionist NATO, I don't deny the Serbians massacred Bosnians because the Nationalists all belonged to the Socialist party (although i will give Pilger credit there, he was consistent in his defence for atrocious war crimes committed by non-western states even though he had no dog in the Hunt as the West equally were prepared to ignore what was going on).

It's not about equivalence it's about having no time for people like Pilger who only has an axe to grind because Western Capitalism triumphed over Socialism, to the point where he has so much beef with American imperialism that he will forgive or ignore it where he sees it elsewhere.

Everyone is biased, whether you realise that or not, and the ones that can't see or understand that are in more trouble than most. Balanced documentaries are an extremely rare event because the very reason they exist is to put forward a particular argument. I watch dozens a year on a multitude of topics and hardly ever come across a fair minded effort. That doesn't make them any weaker for that reason. And of course, they don't have to be fair and balanced, because the field is upon to anyone to provide a counter argument. So if somebody subscribes to one source or channel of information to assimilate an understanding of the world around them, then they will be all the poorer.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Everyone is biased, whether you realise that or not, and the ones that can't see or understand that are in more trouble than most. Balanced documentaries are an extremely rare event because the very reason they exist is to put forward a particular argument. I watch dozens a year on a multitude of topics and hardly ever come across a fair minded effort. That doesn't make them any weaker for that reason. And of course, they don't have to be fair and balanced, because the field is upon to anyone to provide a counter argument. So if somebody subscribes to one source or channel of information to assimilate an understanding of the world around them, then they will be all the poorer.

Thanks for that incredibly patronising lecture you've really opened my eyes

I tend to steer clear of contemporary political documentaries in general because I'm tired of picking grains of truth out of loads of horse shit.

Generally you find the truth of things only ever really becomes apparent many years after the event.

[Kano]

Sounded like you needed it to be fair, given how even handed you presented yourself in the previous post.

A good documentary should only really be a source of provocation to look into a subject further or challenge an existing point of view. Then it's down to the individual to read and learn around that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sounded like you needed it to be fair, given how even handed you presented yourself in the previous post.

A good documentary should only really be a source of provocation to look into a subject further or challenge an existing point of view. Then it's down to the individual to read and learn around that.

Yes I needed it because I think Pilger is full of shit

It seems to me more that you've filled in the gaps in my opinions, that because I'm critical of Russia and China I'm somehow prepared to give the US a pass.

It's more that I think the argument that the only way to avoid World War Three is to allow the Russians to continue to use Bashar Al-Assad as a puppet dictator is nonsense.

That America is just as bad in different situations doesn't change that either. The US back the Saudis too often because of the amount of money the Al-Saud family has tied up in the US economy and the Saudis are one of the principles financiers of Islamist groups.

That's the US for you, tries to hold two conflicting interests.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes I needed it because I think Pilger is full of shit

It seems to me more that you've filled in the gaps in my opinions, that because I'm critical of Russia and China I'm somehow prepared to give the US a pass.

It's more that I think the argument that the only way to avoid World War Three is to allow the Russians to continue to use Bashar Al-Assad as a puppet dictator is nonsense.

That America is just as bad in different situations doesn't change that either. The US back the Saudis too often because of the amount of money the Al-Saud family has tied up in the US economy and the Saudis are one of the principles financiers of Islamist groups.

That's the US for you, tries to hold two conflicting interests.

There's something else here. You are on a hair trigger when it comes to criticism of the west. As I said before, criticism can and does exist outside the landscape of political correctness where the rules dictate we mention pros and cons, deeds and misdeeds in equal and equivalent measures. Ironically the latter seems more apologetic in that everything must be cast in a comparative context before it is considered sincere, your main argument I think. And yet where is the problem in pointing out an isolated incident and stating it's bad, illegal, inhumane, whatever? What's the underlying purpose of applying a Russia/ China label to everything? Is that not just as counterproductive as applying a Great Satan label? Have we all heard of the slaughters in Russia and China's pasts? I think so. Did the US kill 3 million Vietnamese?

A1: Yes.

A2: Yes, but... Russia...

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

We patronise each other all day don't we?

How did Eastenders turn into Politics?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There's something else here. You are on a hair trigger when it comes to criticism of the west. As I said before, criticism can and does exist outside the landscape of political correctness where the rules dictate we mention pros and cons, deeds and misdeeds in equal and equivalent measures. Ironically the latter seems more apologetic in that everything must be cast in a comparative context before it is considered sincere, your main argument I think. And yet where is the problem in pointing out an isolated incident and stating it's bad, illegal, inhumane, whatever? What's the underlying purpose of applying a Russia/ China label to everything? Is that not just as counterproductive as applying a Great Satan label? Have we all heard of the slaughters in Russia and China's pasts? I think so. Did the US kill 3 million Vietnamese?

A1: Yes.

A2: Yes, but... Russia...

That's funny because that's the exact point i make about people like Pilger you point out atrocities committed in non western alligned gulf states, russia, china etc and it's "Yes but the United States".

I don't think i have made myself clearer, I have no time for people who seem to think the only problems in this world are Occidental.

And the difference is I don't and never have denied that Western states are guilty of atrocious acts, the way people like Pilger and Chomsky do with Non Western imperialists.

We had this discussion two weeks ago, you think living in the west is equivalent to living in any of these regimes i criticise I don't and I don't think people who lived in these states who now live in the west think so either. The west is as far from perfect as you can get, Guantanamo for example is an absolute mockery of the principle of justice, so are the historical examples of the US Clandestinely allowing US friendly dictators to take power in other countries.....but I do think it's relative and you don't.

[GP]

The Grand Tour is boring.

It's not even as good as a Chris Evans Top Gear.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Grand Tour is boring.

It's not even as good as a Chris Evans Top Gear.

Didn't bother tuning in last Sunday. Forgot it was on. They succeeded where the government failed and got a shitload of cash out of Amazon.

[Kano]

Master of None is good, pretty funny.