The Wish They Were All Dead Tory Cunt Thread

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think i was sniping at China, i'm stating that it has an economy that is dependent on industry that has greater Carbon production (people bemoan how it dumps steel on the market, but actually looking at it from the Chinese point of view this is to stop it's entire steel industry from collapsing) and it has enough influence over the western economy that it would be difficult to imagine any pressure could be leveraged on it to change this.

I equally enjoy how people who decry global elites, imperialism and government propaganda seem to be almost uniformally happy to give Russia a free pass.

But both are authoritarian societies and with China and trade it's one of the few points where i think Trump has an interesting point to make rather than just rhetoric and to be fair on him, if you look hard enough he has if nothing else been consistent on this point for over thirty years.

If you believe that in some way the US and the UK are through clandestine methods just as authoritarian and repressive as the People's Republic or the Russian Federation, than there is an unbridgeable gap between us.

Don't get hung up on the methods. Examine the outcomes.

Identical.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm sure you'll find those defending Russia and China in plenty of other places but certainly as not park of my make-up. My main focus is the West because naturally, it is the region of my birth, information to form an argument is more accessible and of course it contains far more of an corrupt dynasty that needs exposing.

I think we already established that there is a divide that can't be bridged in terms of common ground but from my perspective, that was never the point of these rolling discussions. Because aftet all, that is all this is, merely a discussion, a diversion through the day. Certainly more interesting than discussing football at the moment. Attempting to convince someone on a message board is foolhardy at best, especially those beyond a certain age, on either side of the debate. But going back to your last sentence, then without doubt I believe that. In fact, I believe the West has been far more destructive and ruthless across the centuries than anything China or Russia can be accused of. But just to ratify my belief in clear enough terms, they too are ruinous cunts. To be honest, I though that had been made clear way before now

A debate, a discussion call it what you like always has a competitive element to it unconscious or not, it's not so much an exchange of ideas more a battle for supremacy of ideas. I don't know you, you don't know me so believe me when I say there is absolutely no personal animus involved and absolutely this is as much of a distraction for me.

Of course there is massive corruption in the West, in the last thirty-forty years far too much influence has been turned over to giant financial institutions....Governments are guilty of either lacking the spine to tackle this fact or even worse being complicit in it.

The point i make, is that i may not agree with the form these populist uprisings against the "establishment" have taken, what people should heed on both sides of the argument more than they do is that the system exists to allow this to happen, where that simply is not true in countries like China or Russia.

You are free to finger point and say no stone left unturned, and the worst that will happen to you is that people like me will disagree with you about the claims you make.

You are free to say what you like and the worst that is likely to happen is you are no platformed by a bunch of silly Social Justice warriors.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Don't get hung up on the methods. Examine the outcomes.

Identical.

The outcome is that in the people's republic especially, these type of free discussions would not be possible

As i've said to the other fellow the worst thing that will happen to you for stating your opinions the way you do, is that they won't be taken seriously

[Niall_Quinn]

The outcome is that in the people's republic especially, these type of free discussions would not be possible

As i've said to the other fellow the worst thing that will happen to you for stating your opinions the way you do, is that they won't be taken seriously

What difference does this free discussion make?

You don't think free discussions happen in back rooms in China?

Well here it's all about degrees. We can be as free as we like on here, provided the NSA and GCHQ doesn't get the hump. In China they save the expense and just shut the whole fucker down.

But the net result of either approach?

ZERO.

Real discussions that can influence happen in backrooms both here and in China.

[Niall_Quinn]

A better example you could have given would be physical protest. Over here we tolerate it provided it doesn't go too far, in which case brutality ensues as it would do anywhere else. And by "too far" it could mean stepping outside a free speech zone (the Chinese will be jealous we invented that concept), assembling outside a work gate to prevent access for scabs, setting up a one man protest outside parliament or chucking a brick or setting a fire. Our paramilitaries masquerading as police can be pushed so far but push them beyond their paper instructions and they'll be every bit as Chinese as their eastern counterparts.

Still, there's a hell of a difference between the brave guy standing in front of tanks in Tiananmen Square and the noisy brats running around New York right now. My suspicion is we haven't seen a Chinese response over here because we aren't quite courageous enough to provoke it. I have no doubt whatsoever how much determination the establishment would show if they felt their arrangement was in jeopardy. They have no problem stomping on the faces of foreigners with an iron boot for all eternity, I hardly think compassion for natives would be to the fore if they were asked to bring their special talents home. Do you?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

A better example you could have given would be physical protest. Over here we tolerate it provided it doesn't go too far, in which case brutality ensues as it would do anywhere else. And by "too far" it could mean stepping outside a free speech zone (the Chinese will be jealous we invented that concept), assembling outside a work gate to prevent access for scabs, setting up a one man protest outside parliament or chucking a brick or setting a fire. Our paramilitaries masquerading as police can be pushed so far but push them beyond their paper instructions and they'll be every bit as Chinese as their eastern counterparts.

Still, there's a hell of a difference between the brave guy standing in front of tanks in Tiananmen Square and the noisy brats running around New York right now. My suspicion is we haven't seen a Chinese response over here because we aren't quite courageous enough to provoke it. I have no doubt whatsoever how much determination the establishment would show if they felt their arrangement was in jeopardy. They have no problem stomping on the faces of foreigners with an iron boot for all eternity, I hardly think compassion for natives would be to the fore if they were asked to bring their special talents home. Do you?

So facing consequences for throwing a brick, setting a fire or assembling outside a work gate (and physically intimidating those you would regard as scabs) are all instances of repression?.

Rights and liberty only do go so far when it comes to circumventing the liberty of others, if you throw a brick or start a fire you are committing an act of destruction that impacts negatively on others. Now consider for example you decided you would start a fire in the Central office of Goldman Sachs, how much damage are you doing to that organisation relative to the risk/inconvenience caused to people who didn't deserve it. Even if you did it when the building was empty, you've risked damage to surrounding areas as fires tend to be a tricky thing to get out of control and you've risked the lives of fire fighters who will be called out to deal with the fire. And what damage have you done to Goldman Sachs?....negligible considering how well they would be insured etc.

With blockading work places and threatening scabs? what have you achieved other than threaten people who are just as much victims of the bosses as you are.

I don't agree with forbidding people to demonstrate outside parliament, but again to ignore the clear consequential differentials between here and China is rather glib in my view.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What difference does this free discussion make?

You don't think free discussions happen in back rooms in China?

Well here it's all about degrees. We can be as free as we like on here, provided the NSA and GCHQ doesn't get the hump. In China they save the expense and just shut the whole fucker down.

But the net result of either approach?

ZERO.

Real discussions that can influence happen in backrooms both here and in China.

This argument seems to be i am being repressed unless my opinion is taken seriously.

I could have this discussion with you on a street corner in London, that would not be the case in Beijing (and not just because it would be too muffled because of the face masks).

The difference between Autonomous regional areas such as Hong Kong and Macau, and the rest of the People's Republic is pretty stark. Even with a tourist visa you can't just walk around where you like in Beijing or Shanghai in case you happen across something that disputes the government's version of what the country is like.

Apart from vague notions of threats from security services which I think would most likely get bored if they had investigated what you'd posted here or anywhere else in the last few years, there isn't a comparison between the keep your head down and your mouth shut in mainland China (and you do neither of those things and unless i'm actually chatting to a security agent trying to trick me into saying something subversive, you are still here and un threatened)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Anyway i am going to have to knock this on the head for now, as wonderful a diversion as all this is.....there is work to be done.

[Niall_Quinn]

So facing consequences for throwing a brick, setting a fire or assembling outside a work gate (and physically intimidating those you would regard as scabs) are all instances of repression?.

Rights and liberty only do go so far when it comes to circumventing the liberty of others, if you throw a brick or start a fire you are committing an act of destruction that impacts negatively on others. Now consider for example you decided you would start a fire in the Central office of Goldman Sachs, how much damage are you doing to that organisation relative to the risk/inconvenience caused to people who didn't deserve it. Even if you did it when the building was empty, you've risked damage to surrounding areas as fires tend to be a tricky thing to get out of control and you've risked the lives of fire fighters who will be called out to deal with the fire. And what damage have you done to Goldman Sachs?....negligible considering how well they would be insured etc.

With blockading work places and threatening scabs? what have you achieved other than threaten people who are just as much victims of the bosses as you are.

I don't agree with forbidding people to demonstrate outside parliament, but again to ignore the clear consequential differentials between here and China is rather glib in my view.

The point is, you'll get the same treatment for engaging in a peaceful act of resistance as you'd get for engaging in violence, depending on the interests of those you are acting against. The brick throwing and fire starting are deliberately tagged to the end of the other examples to demonstrate the point. So the rest of your post is tangential because of that misunderstanding.

The underlying principle is unaltered. Our state tolerates more push back and disobedience (in most case) than the Chinese state. But in all cases, any disobedience that begins to have any sort of impact on the interests of the establishment will trigger a decisive and brutal response. You could say the western dog sleeps more deeply than the eastern dog, but he'll still bite your face off if you wake him. And it is within these variances that we proclaim ourselves to be freer here in the west than our counterparts in the east. Of course "freer" has no meaning. You are either free or you aren't. You can't be a little bit free. In our society free is used as a euphemism for restriction. We are restricted to a lesser degree than the average Chinese citizen, although our liberties are declining whilst theirs grow. In time, if no steps are taken, the situations may be reversed.

On a practical level, whether our enhanced "freedoms" are of any consequence is arguable. When your leaders are selected for you, your laws are made without your consultation and your labour shackled against your will to serve others then you are not by, any definition of the word, free. You may have more perks and benefits in the west, for example you have greater choice in selecting he type of labour to engage in, that can then be shackled against your will. And you may be able to consume "subversive" forms of entertainment that carry all manner of permitted truths and accusations whist carefully avoiding content of fundamental significance. But does this unshackle your labour? Or win you better leaders? Or obtain justice from law? Certain individuals can buck the trend and extract great personal victories in the face of great opposition. But these are drops in the ocean. Most people are content to never try, training and indoctrination ensures that. And that's where we'll find our greatest liberty here in the west. Liberty to waste time, to avoid responsibility, to feed the individual with a consumer's diet. That's what choice is in the west. If you follow all the rules, accept the system wholeheartedly and without complaint, absorb each and every program of indoctrination until it is learned by heart - then, and only then, are you fit to "succeed". And your success brings consumer choice. A Mercedes instead of a second hand Ford. Apple instead of Dell. And off you go with your expensive mobile tracking device, free as a non-Chinese.

[Niall_Quinn]

Anyway i am going to have to knock this on the head for now, as wonderful a diversion as all this is.....there is work to be done.

Same. 2 days behind schedule and hating every line of code. I just can't find any enthusiasm to do this shit any more. And yet I have to do it.