Fabregas goes to Barca for £35million

[Boss]

Agreed, but there's no doubt it plays a big part in success these days.

Not sure what we're debating if we both agree on the main points.

You agree that our lack of success has nothing to do with money - I agree with you that football is becoming a more money=success sport although I think this will change with the FFP rules (hopefully, although it's expecting a lot of FIFA).

That said despite all the errors we've made I'm looking at our own team, and our biggest errors have jack all to do with money which is why I'm beginning to despise Wenger.

The richest teams still don't win stuff, sure money helps but I don't think it's the ultimate factor given the amount of big teams in the sport. The two biggest spenders in England last season won a mere FA Cup between them; Real Madrid spent €260M in one transfer window a couple years ago and ended up trophyless. With more and more obscenely rich clubs emerging (PSG and QPR, to name two), I don't think it's going to affect the elite group of players too much over the next few years.

Manchester United's success is an example of how money isn't a requisite; sure, you can say Ronaldo distorts the figures but it does that for us as well with the likes of Adebayor and Toure going for 40M (who else would pay so much for such little quality). Even if you remove the Ronaldo fee you have clubs that have consistently spent 30-40M per season more than them (just on players, not even including coaches) but they've still been successful.

[Letters]

Not sure what we're debating if we both agree on the main points.

I think where we disagree is how well Wenger has done to keep us in the top 4.
And I'm not sure Utd are a great example of success without spending. With wages and transfer fees they're right up there with anyone. There's also the Fergie factor to consider, I'm not convinced they'd have had half the success with anyone else at the helm. Or, at the very least, very few others could have matched what he's done.

[Niall_Quinn]

get it back, are you serious? the direction is to be a super club, not one that gives a shit about the fans. sure if you want the perception that they care then fair enough but its naive to think they really ever would at that sort of level.

pining for the 'good old days' is nothing but sad sentimentalism of a time when we were a completely different club, in a different stadium

It's interesting that the "get with the reality" message a lot of people rely on to explain away and apologise for modern corporate abuse just so happens to align precisely with the ambitions of the corporation - more money, fuck the customer. You have people telling you that's just the way it is, or they go further to explain that's just the way it has to be - as if they somehow have an insider view that has revealed a generic truth. Of course the opposite is true, if the customer was only prepared to defend his rights and to understand where the real power of any business transaction lies the corporations would soon be forced to fall into line. It's quite a disservice being performed by the see no evil, speak no evil apologists then.

BTW, I don't care what a bunch of crusty old cunts and a fucking yank have to say on the matter, they can wave their chequebooks and champagne glasses at each other and party on all they want. But it's only "their" fucking club for as long as the fans keep them on the welfare they have become accustomed to, a welfare system they haven't even contributed to by the way. So I don't buy for a minute the idea this is how it's supposed to be or has to be. I admit it's nigh on impossible to coordinate people along the lines of common sense or morality - this is the inertia and disorganisation the corporate leech relies on - but I'm just saying, the fans could assume control at any time they pleased and there's not a thing any fucking suited leech could do about it.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think where we disagree is how well Wenger has done to keep us in the top 4.
And I'm not sure Utd are a great example of success without spending. With wages and transfer fees they're right up there with anyone. There's also the Fergie factor to consider, I'm not convinced they'd have had half the success with anyone else at the helm. Or, at the very least, very few others could have matched what he's done.

Fuck being top 4. You don't get a trophy for being top 4, in fact when you set your heart on this magical top 4 thing it tends to take away the chances of getting a real trophy because failure then becomes acceptable. You can lose year after year but as long as you get top 4 and get the money for losing in a big Euro competition too then great, give the loser manager a pay rise.

Whose interests are being served by the fans parroting this top four shit all the time? Just asking.

[Niall_Quinn]

For the record, I am not talking about anyone who posts here. Most of these people I am referring to are internet based, do not live in London, and for the most part have never actually been to a live Arsenal game. And while it was initially anger, it has progressed to way beyond that.

To be honest, I used to "hate" other fans and players and clubs and all that shit. But once you get older you realise that investing any measure of emotion in a bunch of tossers who don't know you're even alive and couldn't care less anyway - just so long as you keep paying them - is an utter waste of time. In many ways the clubs and the players, the agents and media barons must love the "hate" that goes on in the sport. The emotional investment helps loosen the wallets whereas those who don't get so attached might be able to realise that football has actually become quite tedious and maybe the money could be spent on something more interesting. I think it's only the left-over emotional buzz (like a drug) that keeps me attached to the game at all these days. Rationally speaking, why the hell should I be interested in Arsenal football club or any of the people there, given what the club has become? It doesn't make sense. It's only 20 short years since you could booze with the players in the London pubs, now they wouldn't even stop if they ran you down in their Rolls Royce (or tacky Land Rover or Escalade now that class has also been ejected from our "culture").

I couldn't hate Wenger even if I wanted to, he's just not important enough.

[Toronto Gooner]

It's interesting that the "get with the reality" message a lot of people rely on to explain away and apologise for modern corporate abuse just so happens to align precisely with the ambitions of the corporation - more money, fuck the customer. You have people telling you that's just the way it is, or they go further to explain that's just the way it has to be - as if they somehow have an insider view that has revealed a generic truth. Of course the opposite is true, if the customer was only prepared to defend his rights and to understand where the real power of any business transaction lies the corporations would soon be forced to fall into line. It's quite a disservice being performed by the see no evil, speak no evil apologists then.

BTW, I don't care what a bunch of crusty old cunts and a fucking yank have to say on the matter, they can wave their chequebooks and champagne glasses at each other and party on all they want. But it's only "their" fucking club for as long as the fans keep them on the welfare they have become accustomed to, a welfare system they haven't even contributed to by the way. So I don't buy for a minute the idea this is how it's supposed to be or has to be. I admit it's nigh on impossible to coordinate people along the lines of common sense or morality - this is the inertia and disorganisation the corporate leech relies on - but I'm just saying, the fans could assume control at any time they pleased and there's not a thing any fucking suited leech could do about it.

I haver tried reading this a couple of times but am still having a little difficulty in understanding exactly what your point is here.

Are you saying that Arsenal is only owned by Kroenke and Usmanov (a few minor others) for as long as the "fans" allow them? How do you propose that the proletariat enforce their socialist right and take back their property?

[Cripps_orig]

Graham Hunter has said on SSN that Real Madrid have made an approach for Cesc and are willing to pay €50m which could mean straight money or lesser money plus a player.

Hes not sure if Real are serious or not or just making mischief cos we all know Barcunts want him

[Master Splinter]

Selling Fabregas to Real Madrid would be brilliant.

It has to happen.

[Cripps_orig]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...014028,00.html

[Marc Overmars]

Real would pay what we want as well.

Hopefully it happens.