Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That has zero to do with the type of player he is. We're talking about the style of player.

so you think it doesn't matter if one plays as a box to box midfielder that they are slow on the ball, dwell on it too long and are liable to be disposessed and then give away a free kick?

What i am saying is conventionally you are right Ramsey is more naturally considered to be a box to box midfielder than Cazorla, what i am saying is that because Ramsey isn't good enough to fufill that role effectively for a team that plays like Arsenal that someone who isn't naturally a box to box type like Cazorla is better at the job than him, well he is at the moment....again at the risk of repeating myself (which i seem to be doing a lot) his legs are going.

Now again i ask in the case of Cazorla if his legs are going, there are players in the side who can pass the ball just as well and he isn't scoring goals....is it unreasonable to view Wilshere's time at Bournemouth as a potential to Cazorla being replaced by Wilshere in the first team next season.

And in the case of Ramsey, when he is slow, when his first touch is inferior to his team mates, when his tackling is at best hit and miss, when his passing is inferior to his team mates, when he can score goals but only when in a certain good vein of form......is there any sense in asking him to be the conduit between defence and attack.

The difference between the two is I rate Cazorla, but i generally think more often than not a midfielder of advancing years tends to be less effective unless they are a prominent goal scorer.

And this is the crux of the point i was making, in my view Cazorla should potentially be let go next summer and Ramsey is not good enough in my view to play for Arsenal.

[Power n Glory]

so you think it doesn't matter if one plays as a box to box midfielder that they are slow on the ball, dwell on it too long and are liable to be disposessed and then give away a free kick?

What i am saying is conventionally you are right Ramsey is more naturally considered to be a box to box midfielder than Cazorla, what i am saying is that because Ramsey isn't good enough to fufill that role effectively for a team that plays like Arsenal that someone who isn't naturally a box to box type like Cazorla is better at the job than him, well he is at the moment....again at the risk of repeating myself (which i seem to be doing a lot) his legs are going.

Now again i ask in the case of Cazorla if his legs are going, there are players in the side who can pass the ball just as well and he isn't scoring goals....is it unreasonable to view Wilshere's time at Bournemouth as a potential to Cazorla being replaced by Wilshere in the first team next season.

And in the case of Ramsey, when he is slow, when his first touch is inferior to his team mates, when his tackling is at best hit and miss, when his passing is inferior to his team mates, when he can score goals but only when in a certain good vein of form......is there any sense in asking him to be the conduit between defence and attack.

The difference between the two is I rate Cazorla, but i generally think more often than not a midfielder of advancing years tends to be less effective unless they are a prominent goal scorer.

And this is the crux of the point i was making, in my view Cazorla should potentially be let go next summer and Ramsey is not good enough in my view to play for Arsenal.

I didn't say that and can't be bothered to argue the point any further because you're now talking about who is better and preference. That's not the argument.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't say that and can't be bothered to argue the point any further because you're now talking about who is better and preference. That's not the argument.

Well that was the argument, that it got changed to what defines a box to box midfielder is illustrative of how things often go off at a tangent on this place.

I originally piped up because i made the comment yesterday that Cazorla could replace Wilshere at the end of the season, and someone else (possibly you i can't remember) said that he could carry on going for a number of years which i vehermently disagree with.

And then someone (who i believe was you) derided that i was arguing that Cazorla was playing a box to box role when playing with Coquelin and said that description was more applicable to Aaron Ramsey, and it all went askew from there.

But i can only tell you what my original point was, my point was that Cazorla should be looked at someone to be getting rid of next summer and i am not comfortable having Ramsey anywhere near the first team.

[Power n Glory]

Well that was the argument, that it got changed to what defines a box to box midfielder is illustrative of how things often go off at a tangent on this place.

I originally piped up because i made the comment yesterday that Cazorla could replace Wilshere at the end of the season, and someone else (possibly you i can't remember) said that he could carry on going for a number of years which i vehermently disagree with.

And then someone (who i believe was you) derided that i was arguing that Cazorla was playing a box to box role when playing with Coquelin and said that description was more applicable to Aaron Ramsey, and it all went askew from there.

But i can only tell you what my original point was, my point was that Cazorla should be looked at someone to be getting rid of next summer and i am not comfortable having Ramsey anywhere near the first team.

Blink said Cazorla can go on for years and you disagreed with him. You were the one that defined Cazorla as box to box player and needing the legs to play it.

depends what you're asking them to do in central midfield, Cazorla can play in the Ozil role or he can play a bit deeper and run from box to box....and i think in both those instances he is too slow now, especially if we are looking to be using pacey attacks rather than passing the ball to death

I didn't mention anything about him being box to box prior to that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Blink said Cazorla can go on for years and you disagreed with him. You were the one that defined Cazorla as box to box player and needing the legs to play it.



I didn't mention anything about him being box to box prior to that.

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

[Penguin]

A box to box midfielder is a CM who defends outside our box when we dont have the ball, and quickly gets in and around the opponents box to attack when we get the ball back. That's what Ramsey clearly does, regardless of how good he is at it.

Cazorla mostly sits in front of our back four and sprays passes around. He's a deep-lying playmaker. I do have concerns about him defensively though, unlike someone like Alonso who is fairly strong and has a tackle in him. He should be fine playing next to a Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny.

[Power n Glory]

A box to box midfielder is a CM who defends outside our box when we dont have the ball, and quickly gets in and around the opponents box to attack when we get the ball back. That's what Ramsey clearly does, regardless of how good he is at it.

Cazorla mostly sits in front of our back four and sprays passes around. He's a deep-lying playmaker. I do have concerns about him defensively though, unlike someone like Alonso who is fairly strong and has a tackle in him. He should be fine playing next to a Coquelin/Xhaka/Elneny.

Exactly. Which is why I understand why Blink feels Cazorla can play for us for years because he's not a box to box player, it's not how he plays for us and he's not a workhorse type that needs stamina and endurance to have an impact on the game.

[Power n Glory]

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

Cazorla is not playing a box to box. You don't have to recognise posters by name. That's not an issue. Just at least remember what you've said. It would also help if you know we who is doing what on the pitch. The stuff about Ramsey not being box to box is well off. Not sure how you interpret Cazorla playing that role but see something different for Ramsey.

[Globalgunner]

The team in my opinion will play better as long as Ramsey is kept out of the starting line up. Not that he is not a good player. He can be in the right set up as we have seen with Wales. The problem is he needs to play in the 10 role, where Ozil is who is much more effective in that role. He should be rotated in as when needed as the midfield should consist of any 2 of the trio of Xhaka, El Neny and Coq along with Cazorla who is the deep playmaker and links up with the front 3. Ramsey should watch Cazorla and long term he or Jack should vie for that role behind the front 3. Ramsey is awful on the right. Again it is a case of horses for courses. Cazorla can easily be dominated on the field. I recall a game against the Spuds last year where the Tottenham players had clearly identified Cazorla as a weak link and constantly ganged up and took possession off him. Wenger had to substitute him as he was so obviously being targeted. Ramsey is made of sterner stuff but is far less capable on the ball.

My fear for Ramsey just as with Jack is that they are far less a player than they should have been after all these years with us. Both peaked as players probably 4 years ago.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Cazorla is not playing a box to box. You don't have to recognise posters by name. That's not an issue. Just at least remember what you've said. It would also help if you know we who is doing what on the pitch. The stuff about Ramsey not being box to box is well off. Not sure how you interpret Cazorla playing that role but see something different for Ramsey.

You've asked me to explain how I define Box to Box and how I think Cazorla has played that role when playing in front of the back four with Coquelin, and you've asked me to explain why I don't see Ramsey in that role.

What has resulted from this is you don't agree with what I've said, that's your perogative. If your saying I'm not sure how you can interpret that is odd, because I've made the same point countless times.