Arsenal vs Norwich City | Tuesday 24th | Rumbelows Cup

[Letters]

It's not what I need. This is a messageboard for debating stuff. If I think someone is taking bollox then I'll say so, you are free to do the same.
Honestly what is the point of this place if that doesn't happen?

Are you saying that there wasn't a post I made about the three phases of Wenger's time with us to which you responded "There's a problem with that post. The problem is I agree with it"?
It wasn't that long ago so I'm sure you haven't forgotten. And it's interesting you accuse me of lying in the same sentence as you saying that my assessment of that is "general wondefulness", itself a lie when my post above makes it clear what I think of that phase with the failings which occurred in that time - and in all phases of his time with us actually.

Are you actually able to debate without resorting to hyperbole and nonsense? I think you are, I see glimpses of it. But too often you resort to straw men arguments.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's not what I need. This is a messageboard for debating stuff. If I think someone is taking bollox then I'll say so, you are free to do the same.
Honestly what is the point of this place if that doesn't happen?

Are you saying that there wasn't a post I made about the three phases of Wenger's time with us to which you responded "There's a problem with that post. The problem is I agree with it"?
It wasn't that long ago so I'm sure you haven't forgotten. And it's interesting you accuse me of lying in the same sentence as you saying that my assessment of that is "general wondefulness", itself a lie when my post above makes it clear what I think of that phase with the failings which occurred in that time - and in all phases of his time with us actually.

Are you actually able to debate without resorting to hyperbole and nonsense? I think you are, I see glimpses of it. But too often you resort to straw men arguments.

Oh, so you do know the difference between a lie and the truth then?

And your memory works too, so you'll know that everything I said was underpinned, in entirety, by the requirement to continue what was seen at the time as signs of progress. NOT signs of success, far from it. But steps in the right direction. A bit like a drunk finally nailing the keyhole with one last desperate lunge, it's better that what went before, right? You then expect the drunk to go to bed and sober up. But if he stumbles in and, say, allows all the contracts to run down, well fuck that, there's no hope for the geezer.

You're trying to turn, "Okay, this looks better, let's give him one more chance", into some sort of acknowledgement of success so you can then deny the fact the guy has been a fuck-up for a decade or more. And because you clearly know the difference between a lie and the truth, well there you are.

If we're sitting here today with Vidal and Draxler already in the bag, celebrating the arrival of Lemar, and we're two points off the top and the media is wondering just who the hell will win the gypo match because there's just no dividing these teams, not now that Wenger has found a settled eleven and has deployed the right tactics - it's STILL not success but it's massive progress on the way to success. And something to get behind.

Where are we though? With this supposedly above average, not a lucky or unlucky manager? What has ACTUALLY happened?

And you think that's not a total fuck-up?

So we disagree, but stop trying to sign me up for your Wenger camp. I'm not interested.

[Özim]

He's a lucky manager no doubt about it, the time the Spurs squad got ill and he nabbed 4th place, the collapses of other teams when they were cruising and he ended up higher than he deserved, the results he scrapes more than not despite average performances because one player pops up with a goal, the fact he gets free reign to do as he pleases with no real implications for failure, being offered a new contract with pay rise despite a car crash season, the fact he gets away with blaming fans with little comeback, stumbling across solutions to problem areas due to injuries with players he would never usually play and the list goes on.

No doubt about it he's the luckiest manager in football, no other manager gets this kind of luck, you might not like to accept it Letters but those are all things that have happened.

As for the middle phase, frankly I was never happy with his performance then either, both in terms of what was happening on the pitch, where he spent our money and his tactics/style of play, for me it was a failure, especially considering he invested so much time and money in the youth policy (he started workng on this 10 years before) and it never delivered anything, as Mourinho once said it would be nice to be able to pay kids and not have to worry about winning anything!

The only successful time was the early years which admittedly were amazing, but it's been downhill from there, boring football, mistake after mistake, poor signings, injuries galore, thrashing after thrashing. Mr Wenger has indeed heralded a new era, an era where getting thrashed regularly is now acceptable and where 6-1 and 10-2 beatings can be swept under the carpet like they never happened. As I said before see how often we got thrashed before he arrived, almost never!

When you consider everything he comes with (not just the football) he is indeed an awful manager, I'd happily erase all of the last 12 years of his reign, I've not enjoyed any of it.

[Letters]

He's a lucky manager no doubt about it, the time the Spurs squad got ill and he nabbed 4th place.

Had that happened the other way around there is no way you would have regarded that as Wenger being unlucky.
You are surely self-aware enough to know that is true.
And this is the trouble with what you're saying. Because you have this little vendetta against Wenger you regard anything fortuitous as him being "lucky" and anything when things don't go our way as him being incompetent.
The actual truth is yes, there are times when we have been lucky and times when we've been unlucky. Over a period of 20 years at a club it would be pretty easy to cherry pick either. Bergkamp missing a penalty when scoring would have beaten Utd might well have carried us to the Double, instead Utd win the treble, the Eduardo leg break when we were looking like we could win the title. I'm sure there are others, over that period of time there will be loads you could pick on either side. There is no magic power that makes him keep ON being lucky, you're just cherry picking things.

the fact he gets free reign to do as he pleases with no real implications for failure

I think this is more reasonable, he has rather fallen on his feet with our current board, but as I keep explaining it isn't that there aren't implications for failing, it's that he isn't failing by their standards.
So long as the money keeps rolling in, and Wenger has always done enough to ensure that, he's succeeding by their standards. Like any employee he has to meet his bosses criteria for success and he has. It is unfortunate that those criteria are not aligned with the fans expectations.

As for the middle phase, frankly I was never happy with his performance then either

No, but then you are a whiner. Were you a Utd fan you'd be one of the people moaning about Ferguson when they had a couple of (by his standards) bad seasons under him. Most of that middle period we were still playing great football, it's only in more recent years it's become more tedious.

Quite amused that you're still standing by the "awful manager" and presumably "average squad" thing when the results quite clearly show both to be bullshit. If we have an awful manager then to keep in the top 4 till last season and win 3 FA Cups in 4 years then we must have an amazing squad. And if our squad really is average then we must have a pretty good manager to do that. We simply can't have both. And no, squad size does not account for that because depth is part of how you assess squad strength.

I'd happily erase all of the last 12 years of his reign, I've not enjoyed any of it.

Really?

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/sh...t=2857&page=63