You tell me. Ronaldo has done better than Messi in this tournament but you say both have been piss poor in this World Cup. Why?Originally Posted by SMatthews
You tell me. Ronaldo has done better than Messi in this tournament but you say both have been piss poor in this World Cup. Why?
But then the best players always play for the biggest clubs, and play alongside the best. One can hardly hold it against someone for winning too much. I don't care for the Messi/Ronaldo debate, but it seems a tad arbitrary to say because one player won one tournament, when he barely played in the final, it therefore makes him better than someone who hasn't. There's too much going on that is out of the player's hands. An £80m striker in Higuain misses however many one on ones across however many finals, whereas a raffle winner called Eder smashes one in from 30 yards.
And it works the other way as well. If Argentina won the Copa America next year, but Messi missed/came off in the final, that doesn't suddenly legitimise him as a better player. It's probably fair to say one had a better tournament than the other (a large part of that comes down to the Spain game, where they clearly had a game plan, and a performance they didn't repeat imo) but then Portugal didn't even get out of the groups in 2014 and Ronaldo only scored one, whereas Messi scored 4, scoring decisive goals in every group game.
I think what I'm trying to say is, the world would be a better place if there was never another one of these debates.
All I know is Messi makes me smile. Ronaldo for all his talent makes me wish i could kick him. However, I once lined up against his waxworks at Mdme Tussauds. He is one big Mfker.
I was in traffic during this match. Just seen the highlights. Marcus Rojo!!!. What a bell end. Did he think he was at OT while shoving Mbappe twice for the pen?
Make 2mrw better than 2day
The best players play for the biggest clubs but at the very top level when people compare greats it starts coming down to the fine margins. I prefer Messi but I can also understand why people prefer Ronaldo. In football, people always ask these questions. You see a player killing it for a smaller club, you wonder if he can do it with a bigger club. Can they do it in Europe. How about in another league or at international level. For me, Ronaldo has done it all so I don't really have much else to question about his ability.
I think Messi is retiring from International football soon. Still a great player but outside of the Ronaldo comparison, he has the Maradonna comparison on his shoulders and they've always hoped he'd surpass Maradona. Has he? You may hate these type of debates but they'll continue because everyone will want to discuss the greatest of all time. International records get dragged into the conversation because of the greats like Maradona and Pele.
We all grew up watching Ronaldo in the Prem and hating his guts. Show pony! But as the years have gone by and I've seen how hard he's worked, I can't help but respect it. I'm not a hater when it comes to hard work.
Messi.
Argentina.
Kibbles is making the exact same point I was making. Pele is an interesting one because he did it all on the international stage but at club level he stayed in Brazil (I'm ignoring his time in America!), we'll never know how he would have done in one of the big leagues in Europe. And certainly in 1970 Pele was in one of the great International sides, neither Messi or Ronaldo have been. And this is where comparisons at international level get tricky.
George Best was one of the GOATs IMO. He made a complete hash of his career but in terms of raw talent he could have been up there with any of the others in consideration. But he was Northern Irish so was never going to achieve anything of note at international level. I'm not saying that Ronaldo and Messi's international careers are irrelevant to this debate, but I would question how much weight to give a Euro 2016 medal given the way they scraped through the whole tournament, the sides they faced and, when we're talking about Ronaldo, the fact he sat out most of the final which was the only really top side they played. I think it's fair to say that they wouldn't have won it without him, he's clearly their best player. But I reject any notion that he was a big part of dragging a mediocre Portugal team to glory against Europe's best. It's like in 1992 when Liverpool won the FA Cup. Their route to the final was:
Crewe (A)
Bristol Rovers (A) - won on a replay
Ipswich Town (A) - won on a replay
Aston Villa (H)
Portsmouth (N) - won after a reply on penalties
Sunderland (N) - Sunderland were in the second division at the time.
It still counts but you'd have to add less weight to it as an achievement for the players and manager than had they faced some really top teams. I love Globalgunner's quote above:
Exactly how I feel. IMO they're both two of the GOATs though, it's not a debate which can ever be definitively resolved. But there's not as much between them as some people on either side of the debate like to pretend.All I know is Messi makes me smile. Ronaldo for all his talent makes me wish i could kick him.
Otamendi subtly squirts Giroud with water during a drinks break.
The guy is such a cunt!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Argentina.html
There’s nothing between them. It’s a matter of opinion as to who you prefer. Messi is a gifted genius and Ronaldo is a genetic freak. 5 years ago I don’t think there was a debate to be had but Ronaldo has somehow enjoyed the best years of his career when he should have been preparing for the scrap heap and that’s down to his incredible dedication to the sport.
I’m glad at least one of them has an international honour to his name, both couldn’t be more deserving.
IMO The CL is the most quality filled and hardest competition in the world to win, so I don’t believe Messi needs to prove anything really. Messi should at least have a Copa America title but he fluffed his lines, shit happens and I don’t think it’s the be all and end all.
It does make me laugh though how Ronaldo’s success seems to trigger a lot of people but that’s the internet I suppose.
Glad France and Uruguay won so we can watch the remainder of the World Cup without this insufferable who’s the GOAT narrative.
Last edited by Marc Overmars; 01-07-2018 at 08:33 AM.
We're only talking about what Messi and Ronaldo achieved at International level because of the fine margins. It's so hard to separate what the two have achieved at club level because they've both won everything. Hence the focus on International football. Both have had their disappointments at International level but I think Messi will retire feeling slightly unsatisfied at that level because he didn't win anything and he's made it to World Cup and Copa America finals. He hasn't really performed at the same level we know he can perform at club level. It happens. Still a great player and will go down as one of the greatest.
You bring up George Best, his international career, the fact that playing for Northern Ireland meant he'd never be a favorite to win a Euro or World Cup, but fail to see the point being made about Ronaldo and Portugal. Regardless of the path taken, if George Best somehow won a major tournament with Northern Ireland, you have to give him some credit. No, it's not one man doing it alone but he played his part to help win it. Same applies for Ronaldo and Portugal. They've never won a Euro before and before Ronaldo, had never made it to a final. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany. They're not constantly churning out the World's best players. They're not utter shite like Northern Ireland but they've never won the Euros before. Argentina on the other hand have been churning out some of the world's finest for years and there is always that expectation that they will be a tough team to beat
Despite not playing much in the final, Ronaldo got the goal and assist in extra time that got Portugal to the final. Despite Portugal playing shite throughout the tournament, he got the 2 goals and assist that got them past the group stage. They would have gone out otherwise. Despite the opposition, those are big moments. We scored 3 goals with 3 assists.
We've seen the disappointment at Arsenal when we're playing really shit against opposition that aren't that great themselves and nobody steps their game up. It's funny how you're critical of the path taken to win the tournament. I've seen people make the exact same point about some of our FA Cup wins and you've shut it down. When I've criticized Ozil, you've brought up his FA Cup trophies and his World Cup with Germany. What's his record in those competitions? He's never scored or got an assist in any of the finals. FA Cup and World Cup. The biggest team he's scored against in the FA Cup is Everton where he got a goal and assist in the QF for our first FA Cup win. Other than that, he only got an assist against Coventry. Does that rub some of the shine off that FA Cup victory for Ozil? 2nd FA Cup he registered 1 goal and 2 assists. The goal came against Brighton in the 4th round. 2 assist against Reading in the semis. Is that something to write home about? Our hardest FA Cup win was the last one where we played Chelsea in the final, City in the semis. Ozil only registered an assist against Lincoln City in the 6th round. A team we battered 6 nil. The World Cup is similar. A goal against Algeria and assist against Brazil who were battered 7-1. A 90th minute assist. It's funny how far you've gone to analyse Ronaldo's record but have always been quick to dismiss the same point made about our FA Cup victories and Ozil.
Again, just to make things clear, I'm not saying Ronaldo dragged Portugal to win the Euros on his own but you can't deny he made a vital contribution and it's just another way to try and measure the fine margins between the whole Messi and Ronaldo debate. Neither have glowing CV's at International level but I think Ronaldo pips him slightly.
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