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Thread: Europa League Final Autopsy

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    There isn't really a general sense of the word. Average can only be understood in a context.

    No, we weren't that impressive last season. Only 2 clubs in the country were consistently impressive.
    After that we were as good as anyone and better than most. We were a 1 point off Spurs and 2 off Chelsea.
    You think a team who finished 1 point above us are better player for player?!
    They lost 13 league games! They were in the top 4 because, inexplicably, they won most of the rest but it's so bizarre you think that a team who finished on 71 points need a "bit of tinkering" and a team who finished on 70 need a "new team". How are they "far closer" than we are? They finished 27 points off the top, we finished 28. We're both miles away from the level of the top 2 and as you say we really should have finished above them.

    What matters is where you are at the end of the season, you say. Well, Spurs finished with 0 trophies to our 0, and they finished 1 place higher in the table and 1 point better off. Their CL run was admittedly impressive but let's not forget they (I think) lost their first 3 group games. They only got through the group because of a late equaliser against Barca and I think they had to rely on the other result going their way too. They do (as much as it hurts to admit it) deserve some credit for their CL run but they rode their luck a bit at times and end of the day they came away potless again.

    You say Chelsea had a poor season by "their standards". They actually got 2 points more than the previous season. Since they won the title a couple of years ago they've not been great. I'm not sure what "their standards" are, the season before they won the title they finished with 50 points in 10th.

    Our main problem, as always, is defence. We scored more than anyone other than the top two but we conceded 51 goals, significantly more than any of the top 4 (it was more than City and Liverpool combined, embarrassingly!). And there's a mentality issue as well. Those are the biggest issues I see. I think they're perfectly sort-outable without going nuclear and starting again. We don't have the budget to anyway. A couple of additions and we could be better. Not at Liverpool or City's level but we are miles away. Let's be realistic and start by targetting the top 4. We were close this year (we weren't last year). The points total to get into the top 4 was admittedly a little lower this year but not by that much, it's certainly doable next year. There was some improvement from the previous season. We got 7 more points, we got to the final of the Europa instead of the semi-final. But winning it wouldn't have made it a great season any more than losing it makes it a terrible one.

    I'm giving Emery a C for this season. Maybe a C+ as we got to the Europa final. He has work to do and there will be pressure on him next year if we don't improve. We're not going to make the leap from where we are to Champions in one season. I question with our owner whether we can anyway. But we don't need to rebuild the entire team to improve. Let's get into the top 4 first, then we can try and push on.
    Spurs alos collapsed at the end of the season, but overall they were certainly more impressive than us, I think they probably need 2-3 new additions wherease I reckon we need more like 7 or 8.

    Just look at the squad the defence is awful, Monreal, Koscielny, Mustafi all have to go due to age in the case of the 1st two and quality in the case of the latter, that's 3 players right there, Lichsteiner is also gone already so we need a new player to replace him, that's 4 now.

    Then we have the average midfield, Xhaka has to go I'm sorry but he's a liabilty, it's been shown the guy has made the most mistakes leading to goals than any other PL player, he's slow ponderous and offers nothing, that's 5. Mhkitaryan is on too much money and hasn't turned up since he moved here there's 6. Then we have Ozil, it's widely accepted he's finished at the top level and needs to be disposed of, that's 7. Elneny again not really good enough, 8 if you replace him oh and don't forget we've lost Ramsey probably the pick of our midfielders this season.

    Cech is gone so we probably need a new keeper is Martinez isn't promotoed, that's 9. Welbeck is also gone so we need a 3rd forward, that's 10. Even if you brought in a couple kids ESR and Nelson and Even Chambers being the obvious choices you'd still need around 7 players if you want a decent side because all of those listed aren't up to the job, but realistically that goes back up to 8 as we'd need a more experienced winger than those guys.

    You keep saying we need 2-3 players, but that's just not right, 2-3 barely fixes the defence. Granted we probably won't do a fraction of that because let's face it we have little money and the owner won't put any in, so next season we'll probably be also rans again and because Emery is not a top coach looking at him, we may well miss out on top 4 again as well, as I expect Spurs and Man U will spend big and Chelsea also will if they aren't under a transfer ban.

    To be honest, if Wolves can add a bit more quality to their squad I can see them coming above us as well if we keep hold of many of the current lot, we've had a lot of these guys for years and they've shown they just aren't up to the job and nothing you can do will ever make them up to it.

    I agree our defence is a problem, but so is out midfield to be honest, we're losing Ramsey as well so it's already weaker, there's very little quality in there now, very little creativity and not enough battling quality either, I haven't even mentioned Iwobi in this who IMO is at best a squad player who time and time again can't deliver a cross and of course Kolasinac a player who can't defend and wasn't very good last season, what will Emery suddenly change in this lot that he couldn't do last season exactly, I can't see any of those guys getting better or being up to the job, they've had long enough to show they are after all.

    If we do indeed get jut 40 million then we're in real trouble and we'll have to pray some of the kids come good, but statistically (and given our poor youth record over the years) it's unlikely to be the answer, we may find one decent player who makes it out of a dozen but we'd be bery very lucky to find more, our youth academy isn't exactly outstanding and the only one who's done anything of note (in another country however) is Nelson.

    I know a lot of people talk about this guy and that guy being good, but in the end 99% of these guys don't make it, it's just fans wanting to have some outstanding youngster come through, truth is we haven't found anyone world class coming through the ranks in years, we're not like Southampton, Ajax or even Man City and Chelsea who seem to find quality young players (the latter two seem to buy the right ones).
    Last edited by Özim; 05-06-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    I question with our owner whether we can anyway.
    I was thinking about this yesterday and considering if he's just the easy one to blame for our fall from grace.

    Looking at the amount we've spent (please let's not get into net spend as you know what I think about that!) over the past few years in pure expenditure, we're looking at around £270m - that's a lot of fucking money! That's around £90m per season, which is far from terrible, given the model we're trying to work with. Which I don't personally have a problem with.

    Is the owner really to blame, or Gazidis for mismanagement of funds, and Wenger, for being to selfish and not going sooner?

    In particular, Wenger was backed with money for Laca, Auba, wages for Ozil and Mikhi in a short space of time (6 months I think). It was a team built to get us back into the top four after falling out of it, but it never happened. And now we're paying for it.

    Wenger waited years to have more money to spend, and by the time he was given it, way too much was wasted. If it was better spent, we could still be in the top four and perhaps even higher.

    I mentioned this earlier in this thread or another, I'm not quite sure. But giving the limitation on our funds, which will always be smaller than others unless we sell big and reinvest, how much more can we improve points wise, seeing as we are already 2 points off third?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Özim View Post
    Spurs alos collapsed at the end of the season, but overall they were certainly more impressive than us.
    Again, I have no idea how you conclude that a side that finished on 70 points need 7 or 8 new players and a side that finished on 71 need only 2 or 3.
    In the head to heads we beat them easily at home and were unlucky not to do so away. They're not all that.

    Ramsey is the main loss for us. At the time his departure was announced I wasn't too worried, but have to say he was outstanding last season and will be a big loss for us.
    Other than that, you spend a lot of time in your post ripping apart our squad, saying how terrible it is.
    But you still need to explain how you figure that our squad is so inferior to Spurs' when they finished 1 points above us.
    You're imagining a gulf in class which just isn't borne out by the games between the teams or the final league table.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    Again, I have no idea how you conclude that a side that finished on 70 points need 7 or 8 new players and a side that finished on 71 need only 2 or 3.
    In the head to heads we beat them easily at home and were unlucky not to do so away. They're not all that.

    Ramsey is the main loss for us. At the time his departure was announced I wasn't too worried, but have to say he was outstanding last season and will be a big loss for us.
    Other than that, you spend a lot of time in your post ripping apart our squad, saying how terrible it is.
    But you still need to explain how you figure that our squad is so inferior to Spurs' when they finished 1 points above us.
    You're imagining a gulf in class which just isn't borne out by the games between the teams or the final league table.
    I think Spurs had the distraction of the CL which we didn't have, your could argue we had the Europa league but as we know the CL is a different level. The other reason is their squad needs beefing up a bit, since they haven't signed anyone since 2018 they are a bit short on numbers.

    Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that. Chelsea were a few points above us, yet they outclassed us in the EL final and looked a level above in reality,, I know this was only one game bu the gulf in class looked pretty big on the day, it wasn't like it was a close game, they could have easily scored 7, you wouldn't expect that in a final after 3 weeks of rest.

    Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality as every team plays the teams at a different time and form and injuries (and luck sometimes) play a part in results, there's the other competitions factor as well which could mean more games than another team which can stretch smaller squads more. I don't think it's as clear cut as you like to think, but watching Spurs and watching us, they look a better side to most.

    Personally I would prefer to win the CL than the league, being Champions of Europe means more than Champions of one country and there's a lot more prestige attached to it.
    Last edited by Özim; 05-06-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Özim View Post
    I think Spurs had the distraction of the CL which we didn't have, your could argue we had the Europa league
    I would argue that. And while yes, of course the CL is a higher level of opposition we were still - towards the end - playing pretty decent sides and it's still games which take their toll and Thursday is close to the weekend so there's less gap before the next league game.

    Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that.
    Then all those people also need to explain how they only managed to finish a point ahead of us...
    My explanation is this:
    I'd say their first choice 11 is better than our first choice 11, I'd concede that. But these days it's a squad game and we have more depth than Spurs.
    Overall it adds up to there not being much between the clubs right now.

    The Europa League final was disappointing, to say the least. We shouldn't have been swatted aside like that. But for the first 30 minutes we dominated, we weren't clinical enough.
    We crumbled too easily but the league table shows there's not much between the sides overall. In the league games we both won our home ties but the league table is the real test of where you are.
    Where we are is a mile below the top 2 but within the next group of teams we're holding our own. We don't need 7 new players to push for top 4 next year, we did that this year with the squad we have.
    Replace Ramsey, sort out the defence and we have a change of improving. Right now that's all I'm looking for, so long as we're heading in the right direction and we push on next season I'll be content enough.
    Whether Emery is the man to help us do that remains to be seen.

    Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality

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