Are we getting carried away with the doom and gloom?

[IBK]

Ok - came on here for some catharsis after yesterday, but (even though I am used to the mood here) I was surprised by the extent to which Arteta is being written off - even Letters thinks he may need to go

Don't get me wrong - things are looking pretty shite. IMO the team looks over- managed and over cautious, and the players look like they are neutered in the system - particularly going forwards. But...

Most agreed that Arteta's first (part) season was a success - and up to July his record compared favourably with Klopp's first 18 games https://www.planetfootball.com/quick...-at-liverpool/.

EPL results: W4 L4 D1 - narrow losses to City and Leicester and 1-3 loss to Liverpool
Europa results: P3 won 3
EFL Cup: P2 won 2

and while yesterday was bit of a horror show, the spirit of the team to save the point after going down to 10 against a rampant Leeds surely gives some indication that the manager has not lost the dressing room?

I'm not happy with how we are playing, and while clearly the manager has sorted the defensive structure, we are playing like underdogs too often. But we were up in arms when we were humiliated defensively in every other game, and is defence not the right place to start? Are we really saying that we have already seen evidence that Arteta is not going to cut it, and should Klopp have been sacked after finishing 8th in his first 'full' season with Liverpool (I know he joined in October but that was way longer than Arteta had last seasnon and our team had way more problems), which based purely on results to date we might achieve this season.

Is it not a bit OTT to be calling for the manager's head already?

[Marc Overmars]

He hasn’t lost the dressing room, quite the opposite actually. They’re following his instructions right down to the last letter and they kick and scrap for everything now. Which is why him going is a non-starter.

Yes it is OTT to suggest he should be gone this second, it’s still early days and a lot can change. However I believe I’ve seen enough to know what kind of a coach he is and what sort of system he favours. I have no issue with being a defensive team but not if it means sabotaging the attack. We have a striker who is capable of scoring 30 goals but has been a statue so far. If he’s going to turn us into a slick attacking unit as well then great but I haven’t seen any evidence of seeds being planted for that. Even the games we do win are often narrow affairs that could go either way, there just isn’t anything convincing about what I’ve seen from Arteta’s Arsenal.

I appreciate that he’s given us more of a shape and made us more robust however in reality, our fortunes haven’t changed at all.

[Niall_Quinn]

For me the gloom comes from the club's habit of persistently accepting a lower standard and then labelling that success or progress. If you move out of a palace and live in a sewer and then move upmarket to a cardboard box under a bridge, that is progress. It still looks silly for a "big" club to be living under a bridge though. Even sillier when the club boasts about it.

[IBK]

For me the gloom comes from the club's habit of persistently accepting a lower standard and then labelling that success or progress. If you move out of a palace and live in a sewer and then move upmarket to a cardboard box under a bridge, that is progress. It still looks silly for a "big" club to be living under a bridge though. Even sillier when the club boasts about it.

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

[Niall_Quinn]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

[IBK]

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

Lots to unpick there mate.

TBF I am not sure that the owners can really be criticised for being small time in their aspirations. There was a period where they seemed disinterested and unwilling to put their hands in their pockets but I don't think we can say that now. We have spent pretty big (by reasonable, not Oligargh/Emirate state standards). The choice of management personnel has ranged from questionable to disastrous, and the churn has been astonishing since Wenger, but making mistakes at executive level is not the same as lack of ambition. I may be in a minority here, but I still feel that trying to go toe to toe with Chelsea; Manure and Citeh in spending terms would be unwise, and we have seen with our own record signings that this does not necessarily equate to success.

So where does the 'small time' attitude come from? Well I would take the view that part of this has to be realism. We won't simply spend our way to the top. There is another way of looking at our project, and that is that it is supposed to be a long term strategy for sustained success. I agree that currently the pathway to this seems unconvincing, but I maintain that we need to see how it plays out, rather than tearing it up now.

I'm not sure that Arteta is a manager who is happy to accept mediocrity. The fact that we look mediocre at present is not the same thing. Neither is having realistic short term aspirations of getting back into the top 6, following the shit show of the past few years. Is Arteta the man for the job? I don't know, but to a degree he has shown that he will not put up with players being less than committed to the cause. I am concerned about his apparent favouritism for under-performing players but I am not sure that I would put this down to lack of ambition.

As you say, there are few current signs so far of the manager being able to take it beyond the basics, but the basics were what we needed when we came in, and IMO we have not given Arteta long enough to see whether his team can evolve. If he does not have what it takes, I would not put this down to complacency.

For me there have been sufficient signs of most of our players being committed to the cause, which was not the case under Emery. I don't think you can look at Gabriel; Tierney; Bellerin; Saka; Partey; Holding and see players who are content with being second best. Auba is going through a poor patch but noone doubted his ambition last season. Same goes for Ceballos. The rest of the players - well they may well not be good enough but I am not sure that their performances indicate an attitude problem.

For me the main problem is that we have done poor transfer business and this is partly down to the churn at director of football level, and partly due simply to stupid decisions - Willian being the most stupid of all.

I think that we need to try to tease out what the issue is here, and I donlt think it is one of aspiration.

[Mac76]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

i think 99% of criticism of the Kroenkes is rubbish, they have financially backed the club

their biggest mistake is trusting people they thought were experts to get it right - instead Raul was a total crook just filling his agent mates' pockets

Josh in particular is apparently taking more of an interest and I think was the force behind gettign Raul out of the club, then they put that guy Lewis in to steady the ship

admittedly we still bought Willian which was a really bad move but that's still the club management getting things wrong, not the owners.

it doesn't matter how much money you put in, if the management waste it all on duds like Pepe and Willian and probably Arteta himself, then what's the point?

[Niall_Quinn]

The sell Pepe wagon is gathering speed. Personally I was on the don't buy him in the first place, especially for 70 million quid, wagon. But that horse bolted, leaving the wagon stranded. If we sell Pepe, what difference will it make? Are we buying Messi to replace him? It will take a player of that calibre to single-handedly raise the attacking profile of the team. We could go after Dwayne Dibley again, I suppose. Or some other past target like we usually do. But what difference would it make? Might as well keep Pepe and hope Arteta twigs that the shitball we are playing isn't going to bring out the best in any player, including Auba as it turns out.

[IBK]

He hasn’t lost the dressing room, quite the opposite actually. They’re following his instructions right down to the last letter and they kick and scrap for everything now. Which is why him going is a non-starter.

Yes it is OTT to suggest he should be gone this second, it’s still early days and a lot can change. However I believe I’ve seen enough to know what kind of a coach he is and what sort of system he favours. I have no issue with being a defensive team but not if it means sabotaging the attack. We have a striker who is capable of scoring 30 goals but has been a statue so far. If he’s going to turn us into a slick attacking unit as well then great but I haven’t seen any evidence of seeds being planted for that. Even the games we do win are often narrow affairs that could go either way, there just isn’t anything convincing about what I’ve seen from Arteta’s Arsenal.

All fair points. I suppose it comes down to whether the current unhappy situation is a base from which we can build, as the manager works out how the systenm is bluntin our attack, or a more permanent state of affairs. It is a worry that against Leeds he did what we all wanted and played Auba in the middle but we still looked toothless. My take is that Willian did not help and Pepe's head was clearly not on, and things looked better in this regard when Saka came on. But I guess I don't think the experiment has failed altogether. Yet.

[Marc Overmars]

All fair points. I suppose it comes down to whether the current unhappy situation is a base from which we can build, as the manager works out how the systenm is bluntin our attack, or a more permanent state of affairs. It is a worry that against Leeds he did what we all wanted and played Auba in the middle but we still looked toothless. My take is that Willian did not help and Pepe's head was clearly not on, and things looked better in this regard when Saka came on. But I guess I don't think the experiment has failed altogether. Yet.

Nah it hasn’t failed, yet. One could argue it has been successful given the cup win.

Maybe we need better players but my gut feeling is I don’t see us moving away from this type of football any time soon. I’d feel the same frustration if we were scoring loads but conceding them as well. Improvement has to be all encompassing and I look at the football some of these sides with less resources than us play and I’m scratching my head as to why we shouldn’t expect to play in the same vibrant way?

I can’t be positive or patient when the end result is still the same, only we’ve gone about getting there in a different way now.

Hell, right now I wouldn’t really mind drawing our next game 3-3 or something if it meant showing we’re still capable of doing some damage up front. Whatever we do at the back without goals from Auba and the supporting cast we will be firmly rooted in mid table for the season, that is for sure. So getting them going again should be the priority, rather than overly regimenting the defence and neutering the team in the process.