True. A Polish friend asked me today:
“ as a british person: are you able to explain to me in a shortest possible way: why did you guys wanted to leave eu?”
Quite hard to sum up succinctly but I went with a combination of racism, stupidity and misplaced jingoism from a generation who still thing Britannia Rules The Waves.
And therein lies the problem. While some voted along those lines, i do not believe a majority did.Originally Posted by Letters
Many prominent remainers stated that leave voters were all thick racists and demanded a second referendum. I’m still not sure to this day how they thought insulting those who voted leave would win their support.
On the first post in this thread i did state why I voted leave. Immigration wasn’t one of those reasons.
The EU has some positive features but also negative. We know they want to become a federal super state, Junker repeatedly stated that. I don’t think that is a good idea. But they are also slow at responding to things.
The vaccine is a prime example. They made a big issue of the UK not joining their purchasing scheme back in July (indeed several guardian headlines accused the government of allowing extra deaths as we would be back of the queue) and last month heavily briefed that we had paid more for doses then they had. However, we have vaccinated more then around 15 EU countries combined. They are slow and it didnt help that they tried to orchestrate that all nations vaccinated their first patients on teh same day in some form of EU PR stunt. A pandemic where speed is essential might not be the best time for PR.
Then there is the issue of Germany breaking a legally binding agreement to purchase their own doses rather than allowing the EU to do so. All EU nations agreeed that they would act as one one this issue yet they will not punish Germany. They pick & choose the rules they want to apply.
I’m not saying that the deal we have is the ideal scenario, i think there was a way the EU & UK could work together but that was scuppered by the brexiteers demanding war & prominent remainers demanding we ignore the referendum. It meant compromise went out of the window. But to say only racists voted to leave is wrong & explains why remain will struggle to ever win a vote to rejoin if they don’t understand why people left.
The last two times I’ve been to the supermarket (2 different stores) they looked like they had been ransacked.
Perfectly normal.
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You are probably right.
There were some really good arguments for leaving and good arguments for staying.
I’m sure lots of people voted on both sides for perfectly good reasons.
But...while not all the people who voted to leave are racists, all the racists voted to leave.
So although my answer to my Polish friend was simplistic, I do believe those reasons are why Leave won. That and because Remain ran a bloody terrible campaign which was basically “don’t vote leave, you dummies, the sky will fall in!”
It was a close vote and I think the things I’ve cited are what ultimately pushed Leave over the line in the Referendum.
The remain campaign as you say was awful but so was the peoples vote lot afterwards. I went to listen to Nick Clegg give a Q&A on Brexit about a week before the referendum, he was the only one who really argued why we should stay rather than why we shouldnt leave. Two very different arguments. He almost convinced me to vote remain.
The peoples vote lot who carried on after the referendum did more to damage their cause then persuade people to join it in my opinion. The day after, we had people like Caroline Lucas going on tv saying we need to have another vote. Others were playing the stereotype that the thick working class northerners were to blame (way to win back their support). Of course, people should be able to campaign for what they believe in, it is a free country but if you want to be taken seriously, i would argue you dont start the campaign the day you just lost a referendum. Especially when several in the remain campaign had gone on record saying that this was the only referendum & there wouldn’t be another one if you don’t like the result.
The less said about the MPs the better, especially with that farce of the indicative votes which they managed to secure. Not one of them could bring a majority for anything.
I maintain that if after the referendum, remain had immediately started calling for the Norway option (or EFTA etc etc) as brexiteers had done (i think Farage is on record saying Norway would be good) then no one could accuse them of trying to thwart the result. it would still mean leaving the EU, the brexiteers had called for it and if the brexiteers rejected it, then can be painted as hardliners who dont want to compromise. If after a couple of years it go nowhere then fair enough, say you tried & now want a second referendum. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but i do think that approach might have led to a slightly more compromised solution.
EFTA or Norway was never on the cards. May saw to that was her Lancaster house speech and the ERG wouldn't have allowed it.
Farage went on to say that EFTA or Norway would be a betrayal of the vote.
So yeah, you can blame remainers for your bad choices all you like, but when someone suggests something might be a bad idea, and you do it anyway, it's probably not their fault.
Last edited by GP; 02-12-2021 at 09:42 AM.
NOTE: The location of this post has been moved and the thread title (which was previously Wenger is Leaving) has been manipulated by a notorious pro-Wenger moderator. What was previously a message that contained no profanity and made a comment on a real life event has now been manipulated by a deliberately provocative title. An old and crude propaganda and censorship technique.
Several in the ERG had called for the Norway option previously like Farage had.
My point was if the remain campaign had on day one after the vote called for it, they might have got public support swinging behind them and made it difficult for the ERG/UKIP etc to take control. May’s Lancaster speech was six months later.
It may not have worked but when the leave campaign said, same access as before etc, Norway etc might have delivered that. That message could have been rammed home before May took over
Nobody could have read the deal in full in the time provided, especially as there was an ongoing pandemic which is taking up a lot of time in ministers jobs.
The fact that neither side agreed to just have a simple extension so that all sides could read & ratify the deal in a calm way is appalling
Perhaps read the parts that pertain to your portfolio? You know, the bits for which you have accountability?
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