Brexit - would you change your 2016 vote

[Ollie the Optimist]

Perhaps read the parts that pertain to your portfolio? You know, the bits for which you have accountability?


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Fair point but then again, MPs were not being asked to vote on the bits that applied to them but rather the whole deal. While i accept your point that ministers should have read the bits that applied to them directly, it still stands that a short extension should have been agreed to allow all sides to digest fully without time pressure

[Letters]

The peoples vote lot who carried on after the referendum did more to damage their cause then persuade people to join it in my opinion. The day after, we had people like Caroline Lucas going on tv saying we need to have another vote.

Yeah. I agree that wasn't helpful. And while I do think thick working class northerners were a factor, as were old a bit racist Daily Mail Readers, I agree that telling people that they were racist idiots and they got it wrong (even if there's some truth in that) is unhelpful.

The main issue I've always had is there was no real plan for what Brexit would look like. And by the time parliament had blundered around trying to work that out, failing to agree, having elections and not being able to get anything passed so much time had gone by that there was a case for a second vote. Enough time had passed that there was a decent chance of a different result.
A snapshot of opinion on a given day which yielded a 52/48 split seems like a shaky basis for something with such long term consequences (which may be good, we don't know yet of course)

It seemed completely perverse that people were saying that another vote would be "undemocratic". How the fuck can a vote be undemocratic?!

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yeah. I agree that wasn't helpful. And while I do think thick working class northerners were a factor, as were old a bit racist Daily Mail Readers, I agree that telling people that they were racist idiots and they got it wrong (even if there's some truth in that) is unhelpful.

The main issue I've always had is there was no real plan for what Brexit would look like. And by the time parliament had blundered around trying to work that out, failing to agree, having elections and not being able to get anything passed so much time had gone by that there was a case for a second vote. Enough time had passed that there was a decent chance of a different result.
A snapshot of opinion on a given day which yielded a 52/48 split seems like a shaky basis for something with such long term consequences (which may be good, we don't know yet of course)

It seemed completely perverse that people were saying that another vote would be "undemocratic". How the fuck can a vote be undemocratic?!

In my view, a second referendum being called for minutes after the first one is undemocratic. You can’t demand another vote just because you lost yesterday. Farage during the campaign floated the idea that there could be a second one if leave lost and was rightly ridiculed for that idea.

However, after a period of time when it was clear it was becoming a mess, then i agree a second referendum was a perfectly democratic thing to do. It’s why i had no issue with the Lib Dem’s standing on a revoke Article 50 manifesto at the last election. If they went from 7 MPs to a majority in one election, it is pretty clear the country would have voted to revoke Article 50.


i agree there wasn’t a real plan on what brexit looked like, the leave campaign were deliberately vague on that which i think i still think as i mentioned yesterday, remain made a mistake in not going all out for the Norway option (or similar). It would have meant leaving the EU, it was a defined way of leaving given there was a blueprint to follow but it would have made brexiteers argue what their plan was. They wouldn’t be able to just offer vague promises but would have to be detailed.

Although looking at some recent polls, it seems that support to rejoin the EU is still at 48% and stay out is at 52%

[Letters]

Although looking at some recent polls, it seems that support to rejoin the EU is still at 48% and stay out is at 52%

Interesting. Polls are notoriously unreliable of course but I found this:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/

The referendum was in June 2016, you can see how close the polls were then and they're bouncing around a bit between Leave and Remain.

It's interesting that in 2012 there seemed to be quite a strong sentiment to leave the EU.
Around the time of the Referendum it was very close.
Now it looks like there's actually more of a pro-EU sentiment, but you've obviously seen different data.

It just seems inherently stupid to take an action with such long lasting consequences (which could be for good of course, long term, we don't know yet) based on a one off snapshot of public opinion. Especially when the result was so close. At least the 1975 referendum to stay in the Common Market had a 67% yes vote so it was nice and clear. A 52/48 split either way was obviously going to cause a lot of resentment - especially when they took so long bumbling around not being able to agree what Brexit actually meant

[GP]

That's unfair, we know perfectly well what Brexit meant.


It meant Brexit.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Interesting. Polls are notoriously unreliable of course but I found this:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/

The referendum was in June 2016, you can see how close the polls were then and they're bouncing around a bit between Leave and Remain.

It's interesting that in 2012 there seemed to be quite a strong sentiment to leave the EU.
Around the time of the Referendum it was very close.
Now it looks like there's actually more of a pro-EU sentiment, but you've obviously seen different data.

It just seems inherently stupid to take an action with such long lasting consequences (which could be for good of course, long term, we don't know yet) based on a one off snapshot of public opinion. Especially when the result was so close. At least the 1975 referendum to stay in the Common Market had a 67% yes vote so it was nice and clear. A 52/48 split either way was obviously going to cause a lot of resentment - especially when they took so long bumbling around not being able to agree what Brexit actually meant

It was a poll from the new statesman here https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ant-reverse-it

Once dont knows/undecideds are excluded it was 52% to stay out & 48% to rejoin.

While i agree with your comments that brexit wasn’t clear when voting, i do believe it is dangerous to saying that it was just one snapshot. All referendums are effectively a snapshot of public opinion at that time and when rules of the referendum were laid down, it was a simple majority required. If remain had won by one vote, i doubt many on the remain side would be claiming that there should be another vote as it wasn’t decisive. They would have quite rightly rejected brexiteers calls for second votes by claiming we all knew the rules when we signed up.

[Letters]

If remain had won by one vote, i doubt many on the remain side would be claiming that there should be another vote as it wasn’t decisive. They would have quite rightly rejected brexiteers calls for second votes by claiming we all knew the rules when we signed up.

Well, sure. But the Leave side would - Farage said a 52/48 vote to Remain would be "unfinished business".
Tbh, I don't think there should have been a referendum about this at all. I'm not just saying that because "I" lost (I think we all lost, but that remains to be seen).
I remember back in the day there was talk of a referendum about joining the Euro and I remember thinking "What are you asking me for? I got a D in economics!" . As things go I'm fairly intelligent although not as well informed about some things as I probably should be. I don't think people who are going to vote to Leave because of the "bloody Frogs" really deserve a vote.

In brief: Democracy is overrated

[Ollie the Optimist]

Well, sure. But the Leave side would - Farage said a 52/48 vote to Remain would be "unfinished business".
Tbh, I don't think there should have been a referendum about this at all. I'm not just saying that because "I" lost (I think we all lost, but that remains to be seen).
I remember back in the day there was talk of a referendum about joining the Euro and I remember thinking "What are you asking me for? I got a D in economics!" . As things go I'm fairly intelligent although not as well informed about some things as I probably should be. I don't think people who are going to vote to Leave because of the "bloody Frogs" really deserve a vote.

In brief: Democracy is overrated

And he was wrong to do so. At the time, many remainers (who assumed they would win) attacked him saying that this was a one time vote. No re runs etc. If you lose, thats it.

They changed their tune pretty quickly (as did Farage tbf)

[GP]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-sh...order-12191385

This is going well.

[Niall_Quinn]

Suddenly we are all concerned about peoples livelihoods. It's touching to know the concern is genuine and not selective and politically motivated.