European Super League

[Letters]

Aye, and let's not forget that our shareholders sold out to Kroenke did so for personal gain/greed. We can't in good conscience pick and choose what greed we criticise...

We fans are pawns, yes, but we are also part of what generates the greed by chosing to spend our cash supporting the system.

Agreed. When I used to go to games I'd marvel at the queues of people at the Armoury with arm-fulls of Arsenal merch, just lining up to part with their cash.
When I first started going there was a little shop by the Clock End and that was it.

I've been fairly consistent in criticising greed, IMO it really stepped up a gear with Sky and the PL. They promised a "whole new ball game" and boy did they deliver. It's pretty much directly led us to where we are today, via a lot of the steps you identified.

In brief:

[Niall_Quinn]

There are a few things that make me uncomfortable in the reaction to this new super league.

The first is the fact the Government are trying to interfere, not just here but in Spain & France etc. As far as i can see, these private companies (which is what they are) have set up a new competition. There is nothing illegal in that and i don’t see how the Government can change it. In my mind it also sets a worrying precedent where if clubs want to do something but the premier league oppose it for whatever reason, they just go running to the government to change it.

While fully accepting cricket is nowhere near as popular as football but recently they have changed the county cricket structure to create a brand new “100” game with new teams rather then existing counties and effectively paid off the opposition. Now as a cricket fan, i dont like this new league i much prefer watching my county but i don’t remember the governemnt getting involved here at all. Probably because it was the league who wanted it rather then the clubs unlike in this situation. The overall theme is that money talks, fans dont and that still applies here.

The second thing is the way uefa & sky etc are banging on about greed. Yesterday Sky made Monday night football free to air so everyone could see Neville & Carragher accuse the clubs of being greedy and ignoring the fans. As soon as the game kicked off though, they stopped the free to air so that fans could pay to watch the game. Not exactly the best message there!
Uefa yesterday accused the clubs of ignoring the fans and being greedy yet this is the same UEFA that put the Europa League Final in Baku, a place where many fans have to fly via Dubai to get to a European game. Was thinking of the fans? Was it bollocks, it was greed but it was ok greed as it was UEFA. Let’s look at the EUROs, their plan (Covid aside) is to play them all over Europe which only adds to the costs for fans as instead of booking a trip to say France to watch all the games, they have to book several trips.

No Ollie. This "private company" bullshit has to stop being the global excuse for shit heap abusers like Amazon, Apple, Facebook, UEFA and Arsenal Football Club.

A genuinely private company is one that is built from the endeavour of a few, with the risks taken by those few and the products and services they produce being of benefit to the many - all played out on a level playing field where innovation, integrity, quality and a fair exchange of value drive the demand.

This is why monopolies are regulated against. Monopolies do not fulfil the definition of private companies. They are instead socialised organisations in all aspects except for control and revenue share. Added to that, the very second any of these "private" companies help themselves to taxpayer money, in the form of subsidies or a blind eye turned to their shady tax practises, you can strip away that notion of private operation again.

What these companies are doing is leveraging societies rather than customers and then using legal constructs to protect the profits. Who told the BBC to start putting Twitter ads on every news report? That's what it is when a public service favours one service over another, a state sponsored advert. So if Twitter is genuinely private they can pay for the advert right? Like any genuinely private company would have to. And not just the BBC, but every other public facing organisation that suddenly decided Twitter was a thing.

Facebook pages. Same deal, right? Why is Microsoft getting 20+ billion dollars from the U.S. government for kit that could have been produced anywhere? What makes Microsoft, a notorious producer of bug-ridden bloatware, so special?

Why doesn't Alphabet pay its taxes? Who has to pay them instead? Why did hundreds of corporations get favoured status and tax rebates last year while small companies and sole traders were locked down?

How much has Arsenal paid to society for the 100+ years of history it has just used to board the ESL gravy train? Or has it been a simple matter of the Kroenkes leeching up that generational capital and converting it from a social endeavour into a privately owned profit stream? Where's the "private" part of that beyond the profits? Where's the consideration of the fans' equity on this balance sheet, because that's the major part of what actually built the business from the ground up, match by match, over decades. The original proposition was not the same as a setting up a shop to sell widgets. Football clubs are part of the society, made by the society, originally funded by the society through participation and that strange word that will never be understood by vulture capitalists - loyalty.

These days there's a big industry in intellectual property and ownership of innovation. Patents and trademarks are often valued above the entire worth of the bricks, mortar and stock. Why can a "private" company place value on these intangible assets when football fans can't? Why can these assets be passed to the likes of Kroenke, free of charge? Do you see what he gets for free, beyond the bricks and mortar and grass he bought?

These are private companies on paper, but they milk every benefit society and the state have to offer. That makes society and the state shareholders in these companies.

Don't confuse vulture capitalism with the ideal of a free market.

[Niall_Quinn]

I sympathise with everyone on here lamenting this move as some kind of final nail in the coffin (and hate it equally), but let's face it the football we knew died a long time ago.

The Super Leage = WWF...or as people have said a video game with real players. It's football as entertainment, not sport in the way that we understand it. And like WWF there will be plenty of people willing to watch it.

But look how we got here...

Our clubs owned by Oligarchs/sovereign states - to compete, others sell out to American investment funds or individual billionare sports franchise investors - the very people who have planned for this for years, and none of whom give a shit about the game; our traditions; sporting competition or any of the things that most fans care about.

The EPL - awash with TV money. Why - because the EPL is the most popular league in the world (ironically because of tradition; relative competetiveness; the way the English game is played and the self-fulfilling effect of the money pumped in...) - and watched by precisely the huge emerging markets that care little for the things that are precious to the avarage home grown fan.

Fifa/UEFA - de-valuing international club and national comps by bloating competitions with meaningless games that turn so many fans off ('Champions' League, anyone?); and making the big live events 50% corporate and staged with little or no thought for proper fans (Baku, anyone?) - all to line their own pockets and in thrall to big business.

Players - mostly chasing the money, with those with real affinity with Clubs either the exception or at the very junior end of the game. An industry in their own right. I'd be willing to bet that most would jump at the chance of playing in the Super League.

We fans are anachronisms. We are in large part on the 'wrong' side of a generational divide that sees younger potential fans living their lives through the lens of social media where everything becomes a story and the value of the concrete truth seems diminished. A generation for whom scripted 'reality' TV is a norm; who are used to 'instant' gratification and who are not turned off by the idea of buying 'success'. Future global football fans will know that what they are watching is entertainment rather than sport, but this entertainment is skillfully crafted.

The people driving this thing know all of this, and can see the future. They know also that we, the traditional fans are not needed, and this is why they now feel emboldened to show their contempt of us, having worked in more subtle, yet equally devastating ways for years.

Bad times...

Yeah. The writing has been on the wall for decades. It can all be traced back to Sky Sports. I'm not saying Sky set out to achieve this end, but everything they have done has continued to remove the fan from the stadium and plonk them in front of a telly. Sky built the audience and the swarm of sponsors that prey on that audience. Their model had the destruction of traditional football baked in from the outset.

And Boris and the government can fuck off, as always. Successive governments sat on their hands and watched as literal criminals slithered into the game and took ownership. Now, with the horse bolted and dead after a long a fruitful life, and the gate rotted through by worms and collapsed in the dirt - in rides Boris on a white steed. Who's going to buy that?

[Niall_Quinn]

I think that is quite a dangerous statement. What do you mean “know their place”

Ive seen this attitude towards foreign fans quite a bit on social media but what makes us better fans then them? You only have to see how popular the clubs are when they go on pre season tours and sell out games for meaningless games. These fans also get up at stupid hours to watch every game, probably more so then people do here tbh.

Of course, fans in this country are always likely to have a stronger attachment given the club is located here but i dont think that fans in other countries are not as valuable. We have all seen the pictures of “tourists” at the emirates with large bags of shopping from teh club shop but that could be their only trip to game in their life time so they make the most of it.

Again, on social media someone made an interesting point when people say the fans are against the super league. I suspect if you ask the majority of fans in Asia or America, they would rather watch arsenal v united more then arsenal v Burnley. Do their views not count ?

Erm... if they love the game so much, why don't they set up leagues worth a shit? I'm entitled to watch the NFL if I want to. But I'm not entitled to avoid criticism if my money and the money of millions of other fundamentally disconnected viewers results in the NFL being modified to suit me rather than the fans who created it.

If we're the "legacy fans" then all the rest, bar an incredibly small minority who used to jump a jet and come to the games (big respect), are the johnny-come-latelies who have wallets and popcorn but no real connection. I definitely see a distinction between them and the real fans who are heading off on the Eurostar for an expensive and exhausting roundtrip to watch Xhaka play FC Shitkickers - and probably lose.

And what about clubs like Crewe and Rotherham? How many of these foreign football fanatics who love the game on merit alone will be digging in their wallets to fund the smaller teams that "legacy fans" have supported through thin and thinner?

The only dangerous thing here is the greedy bastards at the top signing up millions of pseudo-fans and kicking the real fans out of the game.

[IBK]

Yeah. The writing has been on the wall for decades. It can all be traced back to Sky Sports. I'm not saying Sky set out to achieve this end, but everything they have done has continued to remove the fan from the stadium and plonk them in front of a telly. Sky built the audience and the swarm of sponsors that prey on that audience. Their model had the destruction of traditional football baked in from the outset.

And Boris and the government can fuck off, as always. Successive governments sat on their hands and watched as literal criminals slithered into the game and took ownership. Now, with the horse bolted and dead after a long a fruitful life, and the gate rotted through by worms and collapsed in the dirt - in rides Boris on a white steed. Who's going to buy that?

Agreed re Boris. All he is doing is looking for a popular cause to further bolster his position. He doesn;t even follow football...any more than Cameron who hilariously forgot which football team he supported!

[Niall_Quinn]

The guy is off his head, been snorting all that lovely money for too long.

Most of what he has said is bollocks and delusional.

He's the shithead that was supposed to be representing the interests of 200 European clubs. And all the while he was smiling out one side of his skull but working in the background to throw 188 of those clubs under the bus. You have to be an epic scumbag to operate like that.

[Ollie the Optimist]

No Ollie. This "private company" bullshit has to stop being the global excuse for shit heap abusers like Amazon, Apple, Facebook, UEFA and Arsenal Football Club.

A genuinely private company is one that is built from the endeavour of a few, with the risks taken by those few and the products and services they produce being of benefit to the many - all played out on a level playing field where innovation, integrity, quality and a fair exchange of value drive the demand.

This is why monopolies are regulated against. Monopolies do not fulfil the definition of private companies. They are instead socialised organisations in all aspects except for control and revenue share. Added to that, the very second any of these "private" companies help themselves to taxpayer money, in the form of subsidies or a blind eye turned to their shady tax practises, you can strip away that notion of private operation again.

What these companies are doing is leveraging societies rather than customers and then using legal constructs to protect the profits. Who told the BBC to start putting Twitter ads on every news report? That's what it is when a public service favours one service over another, a state sponsored advert. So if Twitter is genuinely private they can pay for the advert right? Like any genuinely private company would have to. And not just the BBC, but every other public facing organisation that suddenly decided Twitter was a thing.

Facebook pages. Same deal, right? Why is Microsoft getting 20+ billion dollars from the U.S. government for kit that could have been produced anywhere? What makes Microsoft, a notorious producer of bug-ridden bloatware, so special?

Why doesn't Alphabet pay its taxes? Who has to pay them instead? Why did hundreds of corporations get favoured status and tax rebates last year while small companies and sole traders were locked down?

How much has Arsenal paid to society for the 100+ years of history it has just used to board the ESL gravy train? Or has it been a simple matter of the Kroenkes leeching up that generational capital and converting it from a social endeavour into a privately owned profit stream? Where's the "private" part of that beyond the profits? Where's the consideration of the fans' equity on this balance sheet, because that's the major part of what actually built the business from the ground up, match by match, over decades. The original proposition was not the same as a setting up a shop to sell widgets. Football clubs are part of the society, made by the society, originally funded by the society through participation and that strange word that will never be understood by vulture capitalists - loyalty.

These days there's a big industry in intellectual property and ownership of innovation. Patents and trademarks are often valued above the entire worth of the bricks, mortar and stock. Why can a "private" company place value on these intangible assets when football fans can't? Why can these assets be passed to the likes of Kroenke, free of charge? Do you see what he gets for free, beyond the bricks and mortar and grass he bought?

These are private companies on paper, but they milk every benefit society and the state have to offer. That makes society and the state shareholders in these companies.

Don't confuse vulture capitalism with the ideal of a free market.

I’m sorry but i dont agree.

I dont think the premier league will kick out the big 6 because they are worth too much money. No way sky pay a billion pounds for tv rights if the big six are kicked out. Money will ultimately talk.

However, as far as i can tell, this is basically a breakup between UEFA & the breakaway clubs. I’m certain they will continue playing in their respective leagues but just replace the champions league with the Super League so where is the political right to get involved?

Why is the champions league perfectly acceptable yet this one isn’t? Both earn huge sums of money for the organisers and both don’t give a shit about the fans.

[Niall_Quinn]

Aye, and let's not forget that our shareholders sold out to Kroenke did so for personal gain/greed. We can't in good conscience pick and choose what greed we criticise...

We fans are pawns, yes, but we are also part of what generates the greed by chosing to spend our cash supporting the system.

And let's not forget either, if you put (rough guess) 99% of people in Kroenke's place they'd probably do exactly the same. Loyalty to Arsenal would last all of 1 second with 300 million quid a year sitting on the table.

It's up for grabs now!

And I wouldn't place much stock in the "football men" pundits are lamenting. Ken Bates, "football man" extraordinaire, introduced us to that footballing legend Mr Abramovich.

So many people banging on about racism and sexism and all that virtually non-existent shit, relatively speaking. Nobody talking about how money has corrupted virtually every last soul on the planet, to one degree or another. Whether you chase money for greed or chase money to eat, it's a very few individuals across history who have consistently maintained money as the measure of a man and that man's place in life. This is just one in a million manifestations of that fundamental corruption.

We all love to believe we wouldn't or couldn't be the next Kroenke and we couldn't, because we aren't ruthless enough. That's the only reason we never have to face such decisions. A good reason which means we shouldn't judge Kroenke on what he does, but on what he is. He's THAT kind of man.

[GP]

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/stat...54232867233792

lol

[Ollie the Optimist]

Erm... if they love the game so much, why don't they set up leagues worth a shit? I'm entitled to watch the NFL if I want to. But I'm not entitled to avoid criticism if my money and the money of millions of other fundamentally disconnected viewers results in the NFL being modified to suit me rather than the fans who created it.

If we're the "legacy fans" then all the rest, bar an incredibly small minority who used to jump a jet and come to the games (big respect), are the johnny-come-latelies who have wallets and popcorn but no real connection. I definitely see a distinction between them and the real fans who are heading off on the Eurostar for an expensive and exhausting roundtrip to watch Xhaka play FC Shitkickers - and probably lose.

And what about clubs like Crewe and Rotherham? How many of these foreign football fanatics who love the game on merit alone will be digging in their wallets to fund the smaller teams that "legacy fans" have supported through thin and thinner?

The only dangerous thing here is the greedy bastards at the top signing up millions of pseudo-fans and kicking the real fans out of the game.

That has been happening for years and the Super League won’t change it. Kick off times have been modified to suit overseas markets rather then away fans travelling to the game.

The premier league didn’t give two shits when they signed up with sky in 1992 and the fans have lost out since then. It was a slow process but sped up over the last few years. These clubs, all of them in the premier league, took the sky money etc and didnt voice any opposition.

It is no good them trying to claim they looking after the real fans now.