When will Arteta be sacked by

[Letters]

Or, TLDR, Leicester City. Nothing is impossible before a ball is kicked.

So many things had to conspire for that to happen. They showed it's possible in an era where what they did shouldn't be possible. But it was a one off, they didn't repeat it and won't repeat it.
Wenger's "go the entire season unbeaten" was said in September 2002. We were Champions, having lost only 3 league games. Even in that context it was ridiculed as a ridiculous claim.
From where we are now we are in no position to be talking about that sort of thing. Top 4 is a step towards where we want to get to. I agree with your thoughts about the CL, but unfortunately these days it's become "a thing", whether we like it or not. It's risible that Spurs players were celebrating in the dressing room yesterday having achieved it, but for all our disagreements we are pretty aligned about how awful the modern game is. It's where the top players want to play, it's where the money is and in an era where money and success are so tightly coupled it's where we need to be. But I agree it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger made too much of it.

TL;DR, we may be in the gutter looking at the stars but let's recognise that we are in the gutter right now and before we start planning a trip to Proxima Centuri there's a lot of work we need to do first.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

[IBK]

That's absolutely right. Top 4 is a by-product of ambition, not the ambition itself. In competing to be first (AND ONLY FIRST) you can run into teams that are better on the day or better over a season, that's a fact of life. So you might end up second best, or even third. But you were always striving to win.

Arsenal has sold a bag of expensive shit to the fans that makes it admirable to hang around the big table and see if enough scraps can be accumulated to make a meal. That "coveted" 4th place that, somehow, on the back of being 20 or 30 points adrift of the eventual winners, 13 losses later, 40 fewer goals scored, an embarrassing goal difference, makes it progress to limp in 5th having puked in terror at every challenge. It's actually a shameful season piled on a rotten mound of prior average to shameful seasons going back a decade.

I don't think it's all down to Arteta either. When Wenger left we needed somebody to come in and install the basics, particularly with the defence. Arteta has achieved that much at least, but again some fans see this as an achievement rather than repair work and the absolute minimum that should be expected. He's also working with significantly inferior players as the standard of the game in general drops inversely proportional to the obscene cash fire-hosed at kids who are financially successful beyond their wildest dreams before they've achieved anything at all. It must be hard going trying to manage such excess and keep bloated egos hungry for a fight.

Is that what Klopp possesses? The ability to motivate his troops to leave their caviar littered harems and fight for a sporting concept? Is that what Arteta lacks? That Newcastle game was unbelievable. After ten years, to still be walking onto a pitch and lying down like that. Is there a single sign anywhere at the club to suggest it won't happen again and again when the chips are down? I don't think so. There might be a plan and the plan might be winding through its foundation stages. But does that plan involve leaders and fighting spirit and the "impossible" goals Wenger would set when he still had the heart for it?

We've gone from "go the entire season unbeaten" (from which obvious by-products materialise) to "Top 4 Trophy". That's quite the cultural shift. Sure, we know WHY we need to be in the CL - cash. Which is all that competition is about these days (when it used to be about champions facing champions). But what's that got to do with the nature of sport itself and fighting for each and every victory that, cumulatively, results in success? CL is just a business thing, for the owners, for the balance sheet, for the wild player wages and so the fans can spend even more. It's a marketing thing. The real business though is the 38 game season that gets you there, where the goal is a sporting one - the title, first place. Get that right and the marketing takes care of itself.

Football is cyclical. It is also unpredicable. You reference the Invincibles. Well the subsequent decade was characterised by our ultimately unsuccessful attempt to compete with the best by building our new stadium - a project that was undone by the rise of the oligarch/state sponsored clubs while we tried to live within more conventional means. Then the influx of TV money rendered matchday revenue essentially meaningless and made the league more competetive. Market forces as much as any so-called lack of ambition has made CL football an essential stepping stone to success - not a 'trophy'.

Liverpool have bucked the trend by achieving success without the extent of financial doping that has bought it for Citeh and Chelsea. And this is the model we should be emulating - and one that we seem to be trying to emulate by having (admittedly late in the day) a defined strategy where transfers are made to fit the plan rather than defining it.

But where you and others are IMO wrong is ignoring context. There isn't a Gooner out there who is happy about our nearly 2 decades of decline. Contrary to your proclamation I think it is ridiculous to assume that any manager we have had during this period didn't want to win - least of all Arteta. But you can't simply wave a magic wand and be competing for the top trophies, and what most Arsenal fans are seeing ATM is some evidence at last of a foundation to build on (be this done by Arteta or his successor).

A shameful season? Really? It was a fairly ignominious fall at the final hurdle, but I think you do the efforts of the youngest and least experienced team in the EPL a disservice by writing off the whole season and by implication our players. Most of the more measured posters on here and in the real world have seen something this season that has been singularly lacking for a decade - and that is stability at executive and director level, and a cohesive plan on the pitch and in recruitment. You want to find us wanting by comparing us to perhaps the biggest success story in the league - go ahead - but I'm not sure where that gets us.

[IBK]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

Was writing my post while you posted this. Much more succint than mine!

[Niall_Quinn]

So many things had to conspire for that to happen. They showed it's possible in an era where what they did shouldn't be possible. But it was a one off, they didn't repeat it and won't repeat it.
Wenger's "go the entire season unbeaten" was said in September 2002. We were Champions, having lost only 3 league games. Even in that context it was ridiculed as a ridiculous claim.
From where we are now we are in no position to be talking about that sort of thing. Top 4 is a step towards where we want to get to. I agree with your thoughts about the CL, but unfortunately these days it's become "a thing", whether we like it or not. It's risible that Spurs players were celebrating in the dressing room yesterday having achieved it, but for all our disagreements we are pretty aligned about how awful the modern game is. It's where the top players want to play, it's where the money is and in an era where money and success are so tightly coupled it's where we need to be. But I agree it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger made too much of it.

TL;DR, we may be in the gutter looking at the stars but let's recognise that we are in the gutter right now and before we start planning a trip to Proxima Centuri there's a lot of work we need to do first.

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Context is important, we would all be happy to be where Liverpool are and many of us see them as a blueprint for a successful model for us to follow but they had to wait 30 years for a league title. The Red machine, the top club in the country.
It’s also important to remember how many different ways they tried to bring out success that ultimately resulted in failure.

Im no fan of Arteta because he doesn’t strike me as the person to bring us forward and I am hesitant about more time and money being wasted in the hopes that he irons out his flaws as a coach and as a person.

But things are ephemeral in football, there really is no point comparing us to twenty or forty years ago because the club and the football environment is completely different. There’s no sense in crying for the moon, we are where we are.

Therefore the only thing worth focusing on is where we go from here

That's easy. Nowhere. Should be obvious to any honest observer. When I hear the club and the fans pour scorn on the very notion of a top 4 "challenge" then it might be different. These "progressive" steps that lead us from one false dawn to the next are very useful for people who aim low. What are the chances that one step up leads to the next step up? Isn't it far more likely, based on the evidence, one step forward will lead to two back? Like we have seen again this season? Measure a few more points and a defence that has progressed to occasionally being able to defend against throwing away even the limited ambition of an also-ran finish and the cash so craved, an ambition that was in our hand once, twice, three times and blown with complete consistency in failure and it places things nicely into context.

[Niall_Quinn]

Football is cyclical. It is also unpredicable. You reference the Invincibles. Well the subsequent decade was characterised by our ultimately unsuccessful attempt to compete with the best by building our new stadium - a project that was undone by the rise of the oligarch/state sponsored clubs while we tried to live within more conventional means. Then the influx of TV money rendered matchday revenue essentially meaningless and made the league more competetive. Market forces as much as any so-called lack of ambition has made CL football an essential stepping stone to success - not a 'trophy'.

Liverpool have bucked the trend by achieving success without the extent of financial doping that has bought it for Citeh and Chelsea. And this is the model we should be emulating - and one that we seem to be trying to emulate by having (admittedly late in the day) a defined strategy where transfers are made to fit the plan rather than defining it.

But where you and others are IMO wrong is ignoring context. There isn't a Gooner out there who is happy about our nearly 2 decades of decline. Contrary to your proclamation I think it is ridiculous to assume that any manager we have had during this period didn't want to win - least of all Arteta. But you can't simply wave a magic wand and be competing for the top trophies, and what most Arsenal fans are seeing ATM is some evidence at last of a foundation to build on (be this done by Arteta or his successor).

A shameful season? Really? It was a fairly ignominious fall at the final hurdle, but I think you do the efforts of the youngest and least experienced team in the EPL a disservice by writing off the whole season and by implication our players. Most of the more measured posters on here and in the real world have seen something this season that has been singularly lacking for a decade - and that is stability at executive and director level, and a cohesive plan on the pitch and in recruitment. You want to find us wanting by comparing us to perhaps the biggest success story in the league - go ahead - but I'm not sure where that gets us.

You missed the one thing I was actually talking about - mindset. Aim low and you get low. Aim high and you might still get low. but it's not a self fulfilling prophecy. Those two Newcastle lads in the middle showed what kind of attitude and application it takes to succeed. They probably won't be there once moneybags comes in and starts throwing cheques around. But in the particular match they bossed our mincing charlies and all the comparisons on paper and what is possible and what is likely went out the window. That's the real context. Those with guts can win, those without never can. Name a single, gutless triumph in any sport. The habitual collapse can't be explained away so easily. It continues to say everything about this club. It tells us what we have known for a long time. I see no sign of that changing based on evidence. What I do hear is a lot of BS about players being tired, overused, burnt out, etc, etc. How so? the ambitious clubs played how many more matches? I hear about injuries too, as if no other club suffered them.

No. It's the mindset. All wrong and defended by too many fans, whether they are happy about it or not.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

13 losses & 2 drawers.

after conceding first, our stats were:

0 games won
0 goals scored.

What a very depressing state of affairs, if we cant even muster the ability to stage a fight back when it doesn't go "according to plan" (i use that term loosely of course)

But hey - progress

[IBK]

The mindset of many fans is polluted with Wengerisms like "financial doping" and "Top 4 Trophy". Yes, there's financial doping. The same doping that Leicester faced when they did the "impossible". Wenger aimed to go a whole season unbeaten, which everybody knows can't be done. Until it's done. If Leicester's ambition was to be "realistic" they'd have finished mid-table and been happy with it. If Wenger's aim had diminished to a mere top 4 finish there would be no Invincibles. It's mindset and attitude. Nobody said it's easy. Nobody needs to claim it's even likely. But with the mindset of a winner everything is possible and even a failure can yield great benefits over the course of an honest effort. But too many fans have a loser mentality. The gypos "can't" be competed with. Not possible. We "can't" say we are challenging for the title. Not realistic. The fans know everything we can't do and that's just fine with the current owner and officials at the club because even a couple more points in a season of failure gets lauded as a step on the road to what? More weak-minded collapses of the type we are so familiar with?

So we got a few more points through whatever negative and depressing methods Arteta deploys on the pitch. It's a minor improvement. But did we uncover a leader? Who? Arteta, who admitted we were trounced by Newcastle as if, hey, shit happens? Did we develop a team spirit in adversity? Not according to Xhaka who came out and threw everyone under the bus admitting the team can't even follow a gameplan. Does anyone seriously think a few more points is an indicator of progress when these absolute sporting and competitive fundamentals are in disarray or absent entirely?

Dream on. Get ready for another 10 years of it.

You don't get it mate. The ambition isn't to be realistic. Being realistic is acknowledging that there's no magic wand to take us back to where we were in 2004. If you think Arteta was happy with Newcastle, then you haven't read what he has had to say. It was obvious that he and the whole team were as gutted as we fans were by how it went down. The season's close was down to a team running on fumes who were clearly affected by pressure, not a loser mentality. It happens to the best of teams on occasion - look at the league winners in their CL Semi for example.

You say Arteta isn't a leader. I would counter that by arguing that his young team are clearly playing for him and have been all season. Being overwhelmed by the occasion with a half fit team at St James' Park doesn't change that, or suggest that there's no team spirit. There clearly is if you have watched us play all season. If you don't rate Arteta or his methods that's fine, but don't conflate a lack of ambition with this.

[IBK]

13 losses & 2 drawers.

after conceding first, our stats were:

0 games won
0 goals scored.

What a very depressing state of affairs, if we cant even muster the ability to stage a fight back when it doesn't go "according to plan" (i use that term loosely of course)

But hey - progress

You can use stats in any way you want though. We were equal 3rd in terms of games won this season. You could therefore point to a succesful game plan in going ahead and then defending leads. but this of course wouldn't fit your agenda...Again I am trying to go for balance, not claiming that there weren't flaws.