Arsenal vs Chelsea Player Ratings and Match Reaction

[Niall_Quinn]

If our leader could switch on his thinking bulb, he could easily give Saka a rest by playing Trossard there.... he did it in a particular game and the world did not cave in.

However as much as his form has dropped, I'd rather put Jesus on the bench, play Trossard through the middle and give Saka 45 mins to do his thing. Nelson coming in as a sub for him in the next half is ok. Or even brining in Jesus as an impact sub (Trossard would then move to the Saka position).

He broke Saka mentally and physically by playing him 90 mins over and over again, even when jt was clear he was struggling with the unrelenting limelight and pressure.

Even Messi was managed properly in his early days, hardly playing 90 mins every single match.

Youngsters of nowadays are weaker, few are mentally and physically as tough as Ronaldo was at that age.

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.

There’s a lot there I agree with. I don’t know who has been comparing Saka to Ronaldo but no you’re right he’s not that level and never will be, players like Ronaldo exist in a class of their own, as you say freak (a word I often attribute to someone like Haaland who is clearly miles better than anyone we have in our team). Saka will not get to that level, he’s not going to be a Thierry Henry for us. In terms of players for this club he’s more in the mould of Michael Thomas/David Rocastle. And that’s no bad thing…I’ve a lot of time for Saka and I think you’re right last season he was the stand out player in a lot of shit and now because as you state Martinelli has improved so much he has faded somewhat.

Saka is still one of our best players, and I would definitely play him more often than I wouldn’t. But I don’t like the fact that he seems to be undroppable.


Martinelli seems to get dropped more and I think this rather unfair because he and Odegaard have been the two best players for us this season

ESR? Not sure if I would agree with you there. Just a poor man’s Jack Wilshere and he never reached his full potential due to injury.

[IBK]

There’s a lot there I agree with. I don’t know who has been comparing Saka to Ronaldo but no you’re right he’s not that level and never will be, players like Ronaldo exist in a class of their own, as you say freak (a word I often attribute to someone like Haaland who is clearly miles better than anyone we have in our team). Saka will not get to that level, he’s not going to be a Thierry Henry for us. In terms of players for this club he’s more in the mould of Michael Thomas/David Rocastle. And that’s no bad thing…I’ve a lot of time for Saka and I think you’re right last season he was the stand out player in a lot of shit and now because as you state Martinelli has improved so much he has faded somewhat.

Saka is still one of our best players, and I would definitely play him more often than I wouldn’t. But I don’t like the fact that he seems to be undroppable.


Martinelli seems to get dropped more and I think this rather unfair because he and Odegaard have been the two best players for us this season

ESR? Not sure if I would agree with you there. Just a poor man’s Jack Wilshere and he never reached his full potential due to injury.

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

In regards to ESR, I’m not basing my comments based on this season…you’re right that would be unfair

I’m basing it on the fact that I never rated him to begin with

My response to his goal scoring exploits?, well Aaron Ramsey scored a load of goals in one season and I think he was rubbish and I was glad when he left.

ESR was getting goals but his overall contribution on the pitch was limited, he was a hard worker (at times) but he was usually the beneficiary of intricate play elsewhere rather than making it himself. For some bizarre reason Arteta in the second half of last season took to playing Smith Rowe and Odegaard together at times which I thought was nuts. Smith Rowe lacks the raw pace to play on the wing so invariably drifts into the middle

Now not saying ESR is rubbish, I just don’t think he’s that good either. You compared him to Joe Willock and I think that’s a fair comparison. I think when Newcastle invariably improve their squad in the summer Willock will struggle to get a look in and now that we’ve improved our squad the same is true for ESR.

Now what irks me is that we are in for another English midfielder in Mason Mount. Now Mason Mount I do think is utter rubbish. I actually would prefer we persisted with Xhaka than sign him and my feelings about Xhaka are clear.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.

Great post and not much I could disagree with you about, except what I'll point out below

But first, to clarify I wasn't comparing Saka's talent directly with that of Ronaldo or Messi. The comparison I am trying to make is that though both kids were heralded as talents immediately they were teenagers and declared world beaters or game-changers ..they were handled differently, Messi didn't play every single minute for Barca, while as long a Ronaldo was fit, Ferguson was happy to give him all the playing time he needed.

Now clearly the latter is the old school approach which is favoured by most football purist (and Arteta, he has said so several times) it did little harm to old school talents like Pele and Best (this is probably arguable on the mental side in his case) and more modern talents like Owen, Gerard and Rooney....but, if you consider the Gen Z and those born slightly before it, basically born and raised in this era of social media determining morality and self worth, awesome video games , smartphones, "me too", gender debates and all sorts of mental crap that has weighed individuals down...their mental strength is pretty challenged due to all the self inflicted/invented life challenges they are trying to balance and surmount...my opinion anyway.

It was Maradona (or another Argentine coach) who complained bitterly that instead of training young Messi, Aguero and co. would rather be in their rooms on playstation for hours during team meets. Greenwood , who could have been special, has lost 2 or 3 years due to the social media induced rape scandal of his future wife (not taking sides on this debate BTW). We got a similar situation with Mendy and probably dozens of distracted young talents all over the world.

Though the latter examples are extreme, what I am trying to get at is these kids that hit the limelight to early have to many of these "distractions" stopping them from really being great and hiting their potential unlike the previous generations. I mean isn't it funny that despite the fact that we probably have more kids playing football than ever before, the conversation about the best players for the last 15 years is still Messi and Ronaldo? In almost 100 years of the game being popular we have never had a monopoly (or duopoly) like this...and I wonder if the answer could be that the other youngsters that should have challenged them have failed to step up due to these challenges/distractions they face.

So going back to the amount of games and pointing out examples, starting from home, Odegaard was an international by 15 or so, in the Madrid team by 16, yet only in the last 2-3 years under us are people saying he is finally fulfilling his potential. Both De Bruyne and Salah were internationals in their teens too and playing in top clubs in different leagues at Saka's age. We all know when these players started fufilling their potential (so no need to go into it) but all 3 of the players I mentioned played between 75 (Odegaard) to 145 (De Bruyne) top tier games before they clocked 22, Saka has already hit 175 and still counting! If you are trying to do something special (in our case win the League), I don't believe you can count on kids of this generation to stay focused for that long (play so many games) and keep performing.

To summarise my argument (as its getting too long now), I think any coach in the modern age that relies on a 16- 23 year old to be their game changers, there go to guy when the chips are down, any coach who fails to realise that most of these kids are built differently, is just setting himself up for heartbreak and being unfair to whatever poor kid he is fascinated with. If I am being plain, "these youngins are weak" (or more politically correct "overburdened") and that needs to be recognised.

Just how I feel about this brave new world we live in.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

Oh and more directly, on the Martinelli vs Saka comparison you made, I disagree.

Martinelli has undoubtedly contributed more than any attacking player since the turn of the year and should be lauded for that. But its funny how his peak and Saka's decline this year has gone hand in hand with our tittle challenge dissipating. So though he's playing well now, he's not been able to carry the team like Saka did earlier this season when we were flying (and so was he).

Also, a lot of other differences. Martinelli is still not a starter for Brazil and has little pressure internationally as he is not rated and liked by their press. Totally different from Saka being the poster boy for a desperate nation.

Also, Martinelli has not been "killed" by Arteta, he's only played top tier footie with us and has 128 appearances. And we all know how he's faced competition and substitutions in his career, something Saka has never faced, even when he started off as a makeshift left back.

We have managed Martinelli's game time ( and the rest ) well if you ask me, but talent wise he is not on the same level as Saka ( at least for now) and I think most of the footballing world agrees on that ( again for now).

[Niall_Quinn]

Xhaka is greatly improved too. He's gone from being a malfunctioning, slow motion tennis machine, where every ball into him came back unless it went to an opponent in a mortally dangerous position, to a competent outlet in the middle with a focus on moving the team towards the opponent's goal. Not always, but more than usual. And with less silliness and carelessness you routinely see in Odegard's and Partey's play.

Arsenal of last season was a joke because the entire emphasis was on pointless possession. I get why that was now. I'd begged the manager to go back to basics because the players couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't take a corner, couldn't even take a throw-in that wasn't guaranteed to fuck it up. Obviously this wasn't down to a lack of basic skills, but rather a total lack of confidence and belief when they were under the slightest hint of pressure. So Arteta must have worked at that for a full season because now they can take a ball, move it up the field, retain possession and create goal scoring opportunities. The basics. Utilising their talent to control a game rather than survive it. It's not there yet, but it's closer to something worthwhile than at any time in a decade.

Xhaka has played a key role in this, from what I can see from the say 20% of games I've watched. Maybe he was shit in all the other games, doubt it though. Seems he gets dragged every single time he makes a mistake or loses his cool, while other players get a pass. He's a good player. Not great. He's as good as anything I have seen in the league bar the obvious exceptions at the big money clubs. Unless somebody at the club has the same sort of insider data Wenger possessed when he first arrived I don't see who's going to come in and do any better with Odegard and Partey around them.

Buy an experienced and PL hardened replacement for Partey maybe. Now you are talking. Could be cheap too. That would provide a benefit for everyone concerned. That Jorghinio (is it?) looked okay as a stop-gap but somebody was saying he's a hundred years old? Still a step up from Partey though, again because he has discipline, doesn't panic and has his eye focused up the pitch rather than back to the nearest easy target. He might do for another season.

The real money should be going on a 30 goal striker. Can't do anything much without that. I'd put a big bid in for Kane if he's not already tied down to a silly contract. Although I guess Utd would just buy anyone we bid for. Tough. But the striker is what's needed. Our current options are too delicate and would be better utilised in strengthening the bench or rotating through the middle what with a busier season.

[Marc Overmars]

Would agree with signing a top striker. There aren’t many around but we should be putting all our efforts into finding one.

IMO one of the biggest contributors to our drop off has been Jesus’ reintroduction. I thought pre-World Cup he was pressing like an animal up front, but now he seems to be dropping deeper and deeper to pick up the ball and doesn’t appear to press at all. You want your striker to be anticipating how he’s going to score rather than going in search of the ball in areas of the pitch he doesn’t need to be. I don’t know whether that’s a system thing or just how he’s trying to play post injury, but I don’t think it’s helped at all.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

I find this paragraph interesting, probably because I am one of the fans who thinks Arteta's system makes a lot of our players look better than they are and not the other way around.

But let me ask, looking at the Chelsea team we beat convincingly, how many of those players would you take over our players? Lets be honest, if given the chance and you were building your own team, would you choose:

Ramsdale over both Kepa and Mendy?

White over Azipilicueta as RB

Zin over Chilwell

Kiwior over Silva & Fofana

Gabriel over Silva & Fofana

Xhaka over Enzo or Kante

Jorginho over Enzo or Kante ( I think Chelsea have answered this already)

Trossard over Sterling & Ziyech


I have left Odegaard out as their was no like for like player playing.

And Saka and Jesus win their toss for now if you aks me.

We've not even started talking about their bench with Felix and Mudryk and co.

But interested in how people rate our players, not on form (as clearly we win, but that has shown to be temporary) but on class and talent.

[Marc Overmars]

I find this paragraph interesting, probably because I am one of the fans who thinks Arteta's system makes a lot of our players look better than they are and not the other way around.

But let me ask, looking at the Chelsea team we beat convincingly, how many of those players would you take over our players? Lets be honest, if given the chance and you were building your own team, would you choose:

Ramsdale over both Kepa and Mendy?

White over Azipilicueta as RB

Zin over Chilwell

Kiwior over Silva & Fofana

Gabriel over Silva & Fofana

Xhaka over Enzo or Kante

Jorginho over Enzo or Kante ( I think Chelsea have answered this already)

Trossard over Sterling & Ziyech


I have left Odegaard out as their was no like for like player playing.

And Saka and Jesus win their toss for now if you aks me.

We've not even started talking about their bench with Felix and Mudryk and co.

But interested in how people rate our players, not on form (as clearly we win, but that has shown to be temporary) but on class and talent.

I actually had this convo with my mate while we watched us get systematically destroyed by City.

It’s not just an Arteta thing either, it’s always been about the system pretty much since the Invincibles disbanded. Wenger kept us in the top 4 for years with plenty of players who most fans were never fond of.

We haven’t had truly great individuals for a long time, players who would be deemed amongst the best in class. I think this is borne out by the fact not many leave Arsenal and go on to have stellar careers.

A great system will get you close but it’s probably the great players that actually get you over the line.