Has Wenger really benefitted AFC since 2006?

[LDG]

I think Wenger is too prudent, and too trusting.

In football, things change rapidly due to injuries, money, confidence, age and tactics. Wenger does not adapt, or adapt his side quickly enough to compensate for the changes.

I can sympathise with him in some respects, because in order to let something blossom, you have to give it time. And in some respects I admire him for sticking to his principles in the, often vein attempt to see promise turn into gold.

Football has changed dramatically since 2006, and Wenger has done a very consistent job in keeping the team in the hunt, and the financials in check.

What he hasn't done, perhaps until the last few months, is be ruthless in culling and changing a team which has failed. Part of the reason for the "waiting period" we've had, is indecision from the manager in what he wants to do. Granted the Cesc and Nasri situations have been a cunt and a half, but he should have been more ruthless from 1st June, because even with C&N, we weren't good enough last year. And things needed changing quickly, efficiently and with a ruthless sythe.

I wouldn't say helacked desire....in fact, I think he wants to win more than any other manager. But the way he goes about things, thinking, pondering and trusting to good, often leave him floundering in the wake of more ruthless managers. That shows within an actual match, with his stubborness to change tactics, or substutions at key times.

A good manager. But someone far too slow to react.

[IBK]

I think Wenger is too prudent, and too trusting.

In football, things change rapidly due to injuries, money, confidence, age and tactics. Wenger does not adapt, or adapt his side quickly enough to compensate for the changes.

I can sympathise with him in some respects, because in order to let something blossom, you have to give it time. And in some respects I admire him for sticking to his principles in the, often vein attempt to see promise turn into gold.

Football has changed dramatically since 2006, and Wenger has done a very consistent job in keeping the team in the hunt, and the financials in check.

What he hasn't done, perhaps until the last few months, is be ruthless in culling and changing a team which has failed. Part of the reason for the "waiting period" we've had, is indecision from the manager in what he wants to do. Granted the Cesc and Nasri situations have been a cunt and a half, but he should have been more ruthless from 1st June, because even with C&N, we weren't good enough last year. And things needed changing quickly, efficiently and with a ruthless sythe.

I wouldn't say helacked desire....in fact, I think he wants to win more than any other manager. But the way he goes about things, thinking, pondering and trusting to good, often leave him floundering in the wake of more ruthless managers. That shows within an actual match, with his stubborness to change tactics, or substutions at key times.

A good manager. But someone far too slow to react.

Dithering - in other words. But I think he is also too close to his project and lacks objectivity.

[Flavs]

That's me (thinking of going back to Sub 'cos 3 words are too long to sign in with)!

I knew it!

[Daniele]

if you look at the signings and team's improvement over the last 5 years, then we have to draw a line and say tht AW has been a complete failure.

[Flavs]

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

This is of course assuming that Wenger handles transfer rather than just submitting a list of players he wants to the board and they go and get them. Also how much input do you really believe Wenger has in deciding who gets what wages?

The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Has it? Didn't we just get £35mil for a player we paid £500k for? And get £25mil for a player we bought for £14mil? How much are Ramsey and Wilshere worth now? Song and Djorou? i would say that while its not lived up to the billing we had been sold by the unstoppable Arsenal PR machine its still reaped huge benefit for the club. I guess it depends on what you thought "project youth" was actually trying to achieve. I would suggest that all youth systems even the bigged up Barca one produce 1 player in 20 that is actually successful, i think we are on par with any team in the world and yes i know we cheat by buying 16-19 year old from other clubs and then converting them but when the catchment area rules went i think that was always going to happen.

Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent.

I see you have picked all the bad apples there, the things you haven't noted here are agents and billionaire owners. Also would you have wanted us to break the wage structure to keep such players here? I think Wenger has a very good history of knowing when its time to get rid of a player and maybe Anelka aside i cant think of any that have done better without us than while here

The conflict i see is that some players are accommodated and efforts are made to keep them (i.e. the captaincy and playing style) while others are simply binned at the first chance.

And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me.

I kind of agree with this, the way the actual playing squad are managed seems to get worse season after season, i do wonder if its a character thing by the players as much as the manager. The first great Wenger team had Adams, Keown, Wright etc in it to supplement the younger lads that were coming through, the second team had Bergkamp, Henry and a Vieira that had learned from the first lot. Now the only true, blood and guts, dragging them along with bloody fingernail types are RvP and Vermaelen and they are either injured or overrun.

And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example).

We have no idea how much power he really has at the club, all we have are badly written paper stories and the twisted views of former players to base things on. He does, however, come across like a man so obsessed with morals and beliefs around how things should be that he cant just accept the way things are.

Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'.

i think this is down to the individual really, some attribute al successes to him while ignoring the failures and others do the opposite. There are people so against him that he could win all 4 trophies this season and he wouldn't get the credit which is of course ridiculous.

The only 2 things that really grate me about him are his behaviour on the touchline and the pathetic tactics we play, he used to be quite adept at setting the team up to play and i remember away games in the champs league, especially at Juve and RM, where we set up defensively and with 5 in midfield and so on, game relevant tactics as it were. Now we just seem happy to pick 11 players and a formation and let them do what they like, it really fucks me off. I do believe another manager could do more with this team but i don't believe another manager could currently do more for the club.

[Flavs]

But I think he is also too close to his project and lacks objectivity.

A victim of his own success IMO, he lack s an opposing view. While we dont know what Pat Rice does i dont often see him disagreeing with Wenger. People always like to compare Wenger to Clough (Which is just ridiculous) but Clough only showed that genius touch when he had Peter Taylor at the side of him to temper his behaviour and style. (and drinking)

Perhaps we need a ying to Wengers yang

[IBK]

This is of course assuming that Wenger handles transfer rather than just submitting a list of players he wants to the board and they go and get them. Also how much input do you really believe Wenger has in deciding who gets what wages?

None if us know for sure, of course. But it is pretty much accepted that AW has a far greater role in how the club is run (ie the financial side) than other managers who merely ask for, and get what the board is prepared to spend. And the manager has made his strong views on the 'proper' value of players very well known - not to mention bringing in his own policies such as the famous over 30 one. It is to me inconceivable (or at least was inconveivable prior to the transfer window just past) that both the choice of players coming in and how much should be paid for them wasn't Wengers. As for wages - as far as I am aware, this concept of parity in wage structure is a Wenger one.

Has it? Didn't we just get £35mil for a player we paid £500k for? And get £25mil for a player we bought for £14mil? How much are Ramsey and Wilshere worth now? Song and Djorou? i would say that while its not lived up to the billing we had been sold by the unstoppable Arsenal PR machine its still reaped huge benefit for the club. I guess it depends on what you thought "project youth" was actually trying to achieve. I would suggest that all youth systems even the bigged up Barca one produce 1 player in 20 that is actually successful, i think we are on par with any team in the world and yes i know we cheat by buying 16-19 year old from other clubs and then converting them but when the catchment area rules went i think that was always going to happen.

Yes - I don't think there is any doubt that project youth Mk 1 - built around Fabregas, with the likes of Clichy; Denilson; Diaby; Bendy Vela; Traore and Nasri has bitten the dust. The latest signings (which if some stories are to believe were partly imposed on Wenger) demonstrate an acknowledgment that what Wenger was trying to achieve - a team of young/developmental players growing together with little in the way of real seasoning - is doomed to end the way we saw it end season after season.

How do I see 'project youth'? Well I see it as an attempt to grow a team organically and on the cheap (transfer wise), and mould a set of mostly young or unknown players into a winning team. It failed. Its quite a Wenger type position to take if you argue that the purpose of project youth was to achieve CL football on the cheap, or to create one or two big profit making transfers per season. AW is a football manager and should be judged primarily by success on the pitch, not in the boardroom. Same goes for the concept of 'benefit'. Only a fool would argue that the transfer profits of Fabregas and Nasri haven't 'benefitted' the club profits wise. But have they benefitted it in terms of our development as a team; has relying on Fabregas (and other relatively inexperienced players) for so many years while he himself learns, and making him captain benefitted those young players around him in terms of their development. Has the policy fostered a sense of Arsenal tradition and empathy - of pride to wear the shirt, as the likes of Scholes, Giggs at Manure; Lampard; Terry at Chelsea have done?

As for relative success rate at developing world class talent - I agree that we compare pretty much to other big clubs. The difference is that this is regarded as Wenger's USP. So parity with elswhere has to be regarded as not good enough. And lately he has had a conspicuous number of real failures - failure being when you can't get your players sold.

I see you have picked all the bad apples there, the things you haven't noted here are agents and billionaire owners. Also would you have wanted us to break the wage structure to keep such players here? I think Wenger has a very good history of knowing when its time to get rid of a player and maybe Anelka aside i cant think of any that have done better without us than while here

I don't think I picked all the bad apples (and there are relatively few 'good ones' anyway - Sagna perhaps?) - I have highlighted the pattern that has emerged of Wenger's greatest successes abandoning the club in most cases as soon as they have developed into potentially silverware-winning players. And this has been the ultimate futility of putting everything into developing players rather than mixing development up with bringing seasoned talent to the club. It has been Groundhog Day, season after season. A profitable Groundhog Day, maybe, but one that has seen our club trapped in a cycle rather than pushing on. I accept that Chelsea and Manure haven't helped - but I dispute that they have prevented us from winning any silverware for 6 years. Looking just at AFC, ultimately we haven't developed as a team during this period.

Re wages there are degrees. I wouldn't have wanted to see intemperate spending on wages, no, but by the same token I would prefer perhaps more attractive packages being offered to existing or incoming proven performers rather than a lot of money spent on rewarding players who represent nothig but potential.

The conflict i see is that some players are accommodated and efforts are made to keep them (i.e. the captaincy and playing style) while others are simply binned at the first chance.

This I do agree with. And Wenger's inconsistency here grates. A problem with lack of objectivity on the manager's part.

I kind of agree with this, the way the actual playing squad are managed seems to get worse season after season, i do wonder if its a character thing by the players as much as the manager. The first great Wenger team had Adams, Keown, Wright etc in it to supplement the younger lads that were coming through, the second team had Bergkamp, Henry and a Vieira that had learned from the first lot. Now the only true, blood and guts, dragging them along with bloody fingernail types are RvP and Vermaelen and they are either injured or overrun.

All part of the same obsessive regime, IMO. I think what we have seen re character is the result of AW's obsession with buying young players to whom he can be a father figure and mould precisely to his ideals; an almost dictatorial situation where he wishes to brook no criticism and a manager who has become too close to his pampered project players (and his own project) that there are few consequences for failure.

We have no idea how much power he really has at the club, all we have are badly written paper stories and the twisted views of former players to base things on. He does, however, come across like a man so obsessed with morals and beliefs around how things should be that he cant just accept the way things are.

Not totally accurate. We know that he wields the kind of power that has enabled him to have the board's support while indulging his experiments; to be given almost unlimited time to do so; and to fail repeatedly to win silverware in circumstances where another manager of a club as big as Arsenal would have been long gone - despite his early success.

i think this is down to the individual really, some attribute al successes to him while ignoring the failures and others do the opposite. There are people so against him that he could win all 4 trophies this season and he wouldn't get the credit which is of course ridiculous.

I too find it tiresome - but by the same token I can well understand the frustration - not to mention the pain of seeing our proud club often almost demeaned by the manager's seemingly erratic behaviour and decisions, some of which you rightly point out below. Its the feeling that Wenger feels entitled to indulge his beliefs with our club - even when the rationale for doing so seems hidden to anyone but him.

The only 2 things that really grate me about him are his behaviour on the touchline and the pathetic tactics we play, he used to be quite adept at setting the team up to play and i remember away games in the champs league, especially at Juve and RM, where we set up defensively and with 5 in midfield and so on, game relevant tactics as it were. Now we just seem happy to pick 11 players and a formation and let them do what they like, it really fucks me off. I do believe another manager could do more with this team but i don't believe another manager could currently do more for the club.

[IBK]

A victim of his own success IMO, he lack s an opposing view. While we dont know what Pat Rice does i dont often see him disagreeing with Wenger. People always like to compare Wenger to Clough (Which is just ridiculous) but Clough only showed that genius touch when he had Peter Taylor at the side of him to temper his behaviour and style. (and drinking)

Perhaps we need a ying to Wengers yang

I've said elsewhere that I think DD performed this role with Wenger.

Great debating, BTW

[selassie]

if you look at the signings and team's improvement over the last 5 years, then we have to draw a line and say tht AW has been a complete failure.

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

[IBK]

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

Interesting question - quite why Wenger gets so much leeway. Partly explained by his pre 2005 success but IMO its also because like SAF he has become assimilated into the club to such a massive degree (philosphy; business model; degree of control over all aspects of the playing side) that its not really like getting rid of a manager in the ordinary sense. Difference is that SAF has brought footballing success and undoubtedly a footballing legacy even when he steps down.