"Currants Bw..."

[Niall_Quinn]

maybe they don't feel the boat on their face quite as palpably as you.

Fixed it for you.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fixed it for you.

Ha

[Niall_Quinn]

If it was true the Tories could do what they want there would be no need for the Whip system and there would be no history of a majority government having a bill defeated.

"A device by Europhiles to try to at least delay if not overturn" - straight out of the mouth of the editorial of the Daily Express.

If the process is delayed so what? as i've said better it take longer and get it right. And as for overturning it, given that these MPs (probably a small majority of whom were in favour of remaining) voted overwhelmingly to back the triggering of Article 50 it suggests to me that it wouldn't wash even if they wished to do so.

I don't want Brexit to fail i live in this country what possible benefit would it be to me, you tend to lose the desire to fold your arms smugly and say i told you so when you are out of a job and the price of good has massively inflated. My reason for wanting to remain was far from ideological, yeah i think Nationalism is a lot of silly nonsense but if i genuinely felt we would be better off out i'd have voted Leave without hesitation.

I'm metaphorically in the waiting room, fearing the worst and hoping i'm wrong.

But they do have the whips and a majority, so go along to get along is the main criteria.

Why should the process be delayed? It should have started the day after the referendum considering it will take up to two years to escape. We're not shutting it all down the moment Article 50 is signed and presented. No reason for delays.

That's what I said, the meandering of the Remain camp has always been a lost cause. Instead of accepting the outcome and engaging as part of the process they have lost all credibility by resisting the very thing they claim gives them authority - democracy. Like the left in the States, it has been a shit show from the Remain camp. Now they'll have no influence because their motives will be suspected. Behaving like genuine democrats (even though they would have been pretending) would have placed them in a far more credible position.

You can relax about Brexit. It's obvious on every level we are better off as a sovereign state. That's not to say we are in good shape because we aren't. Nobody is. But no point making it even worse by continuing to have a rock tied to your ankles as you swim to find an economic and cultural handhold in the debris.

Our economy is collapsing no matter what we do, along with every other economy on the planet. This is inevitable and unavoidable. That's because the global economy is an unsustainable illusion, built entirely on debt and primarily on slave labour. It can't persist because the maths don't allow it and the people most abused by it won't tolerate it beyond the point of having nothing left to lose, a point they reached and passed a while back. We can see the results right across the globe as the civil unrest rises. You can be sure of this, the banksters, the politicians, the grey establishment types have no idea how to fix this beyond imposing more of the same shit that got us here in the first place. They were the problem and now they are determined to accelerate the problem. The fewer we have to deal with the better. There's little doubt they have been put on notice and they know it. Brexit was the first domino and there are many more to fall.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But they do have the whips and a majority, so go along to get along is the main criteria.

Why should the process be delayed? It should have started the day after the referendum considering it will take up to two years to escape. We're not shutting it all down the moment Article 50 is signed and presented. No reason for delays.

That's what I said, the meandering of the Remain camp has always been a lost cause. Instead of accepting the outcome and engaging as part of the process they have lost all credibility by resisting the very thing they claim gives them authority - democracy. Like the left in the States, it has been a shit show from the Remain camp. Now they'll have no influence because their motives will be suspected. Behaving like genuine democrats (even though they would have been pretending) would have placed them in a far more credible position.

You can relax about Brexit. It's obvious on every level we are better off as a sovereign state. That's not to say we are in good shape because we aren't. Nobody is. But no point making it even worse by continuing to have a rock tied to your ankles as you swim to find an economic and cultural handhold in the debris.

Our economy is collapsing no matter what we do, along with every other economy on the planet. This is inevitable and unavoidable. That's because the global economy is an unsustainable illusion, built entirely on debt and primarily on slave labour. It can't persist because the maths don't allow it and the people most abused by it won't tolerate it beyond the point of having nothing left to lose, a point they reached and passed a while back. We can see the results right across the globe as the civil unrest rises. You can be sure of this, the banksters, the politicians, the grey establishment types have no idea how to fix this beyond imposing more of the same shit that got us here in the first place. They were the problem and now they are determined to accelerate the problem. The fewer we have to deal with the better. There's little doubt they have been put on notice and they know it. Brexit was the first domino and there are many more to fall.

My observation is that with Brexit and Trump the petulence and babyish attitudes prevail on both sides

Of course it's ridiculous to suggest that almost 63,000,000 Americans are racist or stupid, of course they had legitimate grievances.....i just think it's sad for them that the only recourse they had was to cosy up to a grotesque self-parody like Donald Trump, just in the same way that i think a majority of the people who voted leave did so for myriad reasons and are being encouraged by people who are going to make sure that they and only they benefit to rush through this process in the same way you wouldn't when buying and selling a house (you wouldn't sell your home without having at least alternative accommodation). #

Maybe our over dependence on the EU was akin to a drug addiction, but even smack heads use methadone to help themselves kick the habit.

If everything about globalism is bad, then the logic would be that you had a ready made national infrastructure to replace it when you cut the umbellical cord but we don't....and so i think it's reasonable for me to be concerned that we will be more reliant on bad trade deals than we are already, selling off more of the family silver to the arabs and chinese on short term, short sighted deals.....offering more tax incentives for companies to do business here and trading away employee rights in return.

Might it cause Britain to stand tall long term? I have my doubts when every government in my lifetime has systematically asset mined the country.

That's not an argument for staying that's an argument for changing the way we do things as a country before we leave. The rush to run out of the exit door is i repeat being made by those pushing for the sweetheart deals, wanting to get rid of employee rights as unsustainable and lying bare faced to people who have pushed over and spat on repeatedly that they are taking their country back.

They might as well be wearing Bane masks.

[Letters]

This is why the vote in parliament was unnecessary and undemocratic. The people already voted and fuck the parliament and their made up and two tier laws, which are not genuine laws at all.

I'm not sure how you're distinguishing "genuine" laws from non-genuine but triggering Article 50 has to go through parliament because it's not "the people" who decide these things, it's parliament.
They are supposed to represent "the people" and on this occasion they have been given a steer by "the people" and voted accordingly although if they're really representing their constituents then many of those who voted to trigger Article 50 shouldn't have done and I hope "the people" remember that at the next election.

The referendum was the first taste of democracy we've had in ages and the way it has upset people who plainly don't like democracy after all is pretty illustrative. These fuckers will tell you straight to your face, we can't leave these things up to the people in our "representative democracies", we have to decide what's best for them because it's all just too complicated for them to understand.

The result upset me because it was based on a combination of lies and idiocy. There were some good arguments for leaving but a large (inaccurate) number written on the side of a bus wasn't one of them.
The number of people Googling "what is the EU" after the result or saying they voted Leave as a protest, not expecting the result to go that way suggests a lot of people didn't think it through at all. And that's not the politicians thought, that's them just not bothering to take the time to understand things properly.
It's a pretty poor basis for such a big change in our future - even if you happen to think it's the right thing to do.

How do you think think kicking out of the politicians would work in practise?

A gang could roam down your street today and the police wouldn't do a damn thing about it. Their job is now almost entirely concerned with running a protection racket. Dishing fines and protecting business, that's what they do.

You say that, if you're rude to a bus driver they're there like a shot

[Niall_Quinn]

My observation is that with Brexit and Trump the petulence and babyish attitudes prevail on both sides

Of course it's ridiculous to suggest that almost 63,000,000 Americans are racist or stupid, of course they had legitimate grievances.....i just think it's sad for them that the only recourse they had was to cosy up to a grotesque self-parody like Donald Trump, just in the same way that i think a majority of the people who voted leave did so for myriad reasons and are being encouraged by people who are going to make sure that they and only they benefit to rush through this process in the same way you wouldn't when buying and selling a house (you wouldn't sell your home without having at least alternative accommodation). #

Maybe our over dependence on the EU was akin to a drug addiction, but even smack heads use methadone to help themselves kick the habit.

If everything about globalism is bad, then the logic would be that you had a ready made national infrastructure to replace it when you cut the umbellical cord but we don't....and so i think it's reasonable for me to be concerned that we will be more reliant on bad trade deals than we are already, selling off more of the family silver to the arabs and chinese on short term, short sighted deals.....offering more tax incentives for companies to do business here and trading away employee rights in return.

Might it cause Britain to stand tall long term? I have my doubts when every government in my lifetime has systematically asset mined the country.

That's not an argument for staying that's an argument for changing the way we do things as a country before we leave. The rush to run out of the exit door is i repeat being made by those pushing for the sweetheart deals, wanting to get rid of employee rights as unsustainable and lying bare faced to people who have pushed over and spat on repeatedly that they are taking their country back.

They might as well be wearing Bane masks.

The yanks did have another choice, the best choice of all. Vote for none of them. But that sensible and liberating choice isn't even considered. If you want to send a "fuck you" message then make it a "fuck all of you" message. But people have been brainwashed into thinking the non-choices they are offered are real.

You're right to be nervous about our future prospects, anyone who isn't is a fool. But that's a concern with or without the EU and like I said, the last thing we'll need when the time comes is to be tethered to the Titanic. We'll need to be agile and creative when the global economy goes down.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The yanks did have another choice, the best choice of all. Vote for none of them. But that sensible and liberating choice isn't even considered. If you want to send a "fuck you" message then make it a "fuck all of you" message. But people have been brainwashed into thinking the non-choices they are offered are real.

You're right to be nervous about our future prospects, anyone who isn't is a fool. But that's a concern with or without the EU and like I said, the last thing we'll need when the time comes is to be tethered to the Titanic. We'll need to be agile and creative when the global economy goes down.

Well yes i'm going to go ahead and guess that the majority of the 150 million people who voted in America on November 2016 don't agree with you that they'd be better off with no government, they might agree with you that government isn't working in their best interests, constantly lies to them etc but sometimes just to get the basic things actually done that you have to hit and hope and devolve certain tasks to the least objectionable.

[Letters]

That's the same argument as my 'everyone should stop going to Arsenal' one.
In theory it's the right thing if you want change, in practise it's never gonna happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure how you're distinguishing "genuine" laws from non-genuine but triggering Article 50 has to go through parliament because it's not "the people" who decide these things, it's parliament.
They are supposed to represent "the people" and on this occasion they have been given a steer by "the people" and voted accordingly although if they're really representing their constituents then many of those who voted to trigger Article 50 shouldn't have done and I hope "the people" remember that at the next election.



The result upset me because it was based on a combination of lies and idiocy. There were some good arguments for leaving but a large (inaccurate) number written on the side of a bus wasn't one of them.
The number of people Googling "what is the EU" after the result or saying they voted Leave as a protest, not expecting the result to go that way suggests a lot of people didn't think it through at all. And that's not the politicians thought, that's them just not bothering to take the time to understand things properly.
It's a pretty poor basis for such a big change in our future - even if you happen to think it's the right thing to do.

How do you think think kicking out of the politicians would work in practise?


You say that, if you're rude to a bus driver they're there like a shot

Real law has a letter and a spirit and is consent based. Law is different to decree. Tyrants make decrees, laws are made by people amongst themselves. We all know why it's wrong to kill in cold blood. Yet we understand it's okay to kill in self defence. There is a life based practicality to that natural law. Only premeditated murderers would dispute that law and they are in such a minority that common sense and the common good says it's just fine to disenfranchise them. Statute is decree enacted by fucker who can't be trusted and don't give a damn about consent. Their "laws" are a means to an end rather than a social agreement. I don't agree to pay the cunts half the proceeds of my labour so they steal it and then pretend it's the law. no it isn't. Any fool with enough guns can claim he represents the law but that doesn't make it so in lawful terms, only in practical terms.

Article 50 is EU law, more illegitimate shit that nobody has agreed to. So actually, no, parliament doesn't have to decide these things because there's nothing to decide. The people among themselves agreed that we leave the EU. It was a majority agreement and 48% were disenfranchised in the process (which is why I hate democracy)but them's the rules we play by and the referendum had far more in common with real law than any shitty decree coming down from an unelected fuck in the EU or a for rent asshole in Westminster.

But, for some reason, the majority believes the government has legitimacy just because it decrees it. Bizarre but the will of the majority has to be accepted in this respect just as much as it has to be respected in terms of the referendum result - so we are stuck with fucking government. Sad but true.

I can't believe you are going on about the bus thing. Either you want a serious conversation or you want to talk about politics. You can't have both.

Everything that comes out of every politician's mouth is a lie. Everything. Maybe they speak truth within a limited context or confine, but when you extend that context out to a real world scope or get rid of the confines and look at the full body of information then it quickly becomes apparent that all politician's lie all of the time. The fact they are politicians means they lie. That is the job of a politician. To convince the many that the interests of the few are acceptable.

How would kicking out politicians work in practice? Well, I'd go down to Westminster Palace, get them by the hair, drag them out and kick them in the gutter. That seems the most practical solution. Hanging them from lampposts would be appropriate but not lawful. Sometimes you have to accept the law is an ass.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's the same argument as my 'everyone should stop going to Arsenal' one.
In theory it's the right thing if you want change, in practise it's never gonna happen.

It's not even in the vicinity of being the same argument. Arsenal doesn't come to my door and say, Pay Up! Get your arse to the stadium and support the club.

Huge difference. Terrible analogy.