"Currants Bw..."

[HCZ_Reborn]

Plus the C word was not regarded as hugely offensive a few centuries ago...

Which makes it even more arbitrary. The distinction between good and bad words is based on the values we as a society have at the time. A hundred or so years ago the worst words we could use are god damn because taking the lords name in vain was considered terrible. Anything blasphemous was also considered beyond the pale. Most people would consider that nonsense.

Now in western society, after being a Nonce a racist is the worst thing you can be. I don’t consider that true, I think it’s one of the most stupid things you can be because the actual differences physiologically between human beings is nominal and therefore for you to believe yourself superior to someone based on skin colour is as moronic as to believe eye colour makes you superior.

Most differences are cultural, and culture is the arbitrary rules and stories we tell ourselves and over generations make emotional attachments to. Because we are not that far evolved from the tribal apes that needed a sense of belonging as well as an outsider to hate.

Now I respect that there are things that are best not to do, don’t address someone using ethnic slurs (because it’s rude and although that’s also arbitrary we live in a rules based society).

Don’t tell someone who could be suicidal to kill themselves, because even if you are not responsible for their death. If they do kill themselves you could be legally liable, it’s also just not a very nice thing to say. And if someone is deeply depressed/suicidal they won’t be in the rational mindset to dismiss such a suggestion.

But it’s actions and not words that cause harm.

[Letters]

No I’m sorry words do not cause you harm

My initial reaction was to dispute that but I looked up harm and the definition of "harm" and it talked about physical injury.
So in that sense you are correct, but in a completely pointless way. Harming someone physically it not the only way of hurting them.

It’s social niceties that mean we don’t use ethnic slurs, it’s as simple as that.

Well, sure. Like we don't fart loudly in crowded lifts and wear clothes. But we live in a society, why go out of our way to be a dick to people.
And, again, there's a difference between someone taking offence at something innocuous and you going out of your way to use a slur which you know offends people.
Why be a dick?

But I do accept that this place isn't that civilised and I speak in a way here that I wouldn't at church. I probably shouldn't tbh, but I accept the general point that in different social situations people talk and behave in different ways.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My initial reaction was to dispute that but I looked up harm and the definition of "harm" and it talked about physical injury.
So in that sense you are correct, but in a completely pointless way. Harming someone physically it not the only way of hurting them.


Well, sure. Like we don't fart loudly in crowded lifts and wear clothes. But we live in a society, why go out of our way to be a dick to people.
And, again, there's a difference between someone taking offence at something innocuous and you going out of your way to use a slur which you know offends people.
Why be a dick?

But I do accept that this place isn't that civilised and I speak in a way here that I wouldn't at church. I probably shouldn't tbh, but I accept the general point that in different social situations people talk and behave in different ways.

Why be a dick?

Well my attitude is that’s a question one needs to ask themselves not other people. Police your own words and don’t obsess over what other people say.

Of course saying insulting things to people makes you a dick, but it doesn’t mean you’re harming someone. If they are distressed it’s the way they processed it.


Words cause Harm is my red flag, I immediately have to go through interminable lectures…because that’s my own internal processes at play. Ultimately it’s my choice though to put so serious an emphasis on something I could dismiss as stupid, equally in using the word I used that started off this argument I could have foreseen that other people would have reacted the way they did even if I don’t have any direct responsibility for those reactions.


And the way anyone behaves is dependent on the circumstances they find themselves in. There’s simply no way I’d be having such a charges discussion if this was somewhere anyone save a dozen people frequented…it’s just not worth the hassle

[HCZ_Reborn]

My preference is that we as human beings get to the point where racial slurs lose any power. Because in reality they don’t have any power and it’s only the power we ascribe to them which makes as much sense as attributing harm to juju or evil spirits. I sincerely believe that until we get to such a point, we will be stuck in a loop making no progress.

I say preference because i can’t demand that for other people. I can only say, as in racism so as with everything else. It’s the attitudes, the behaviour and mistreatment rather than the words that cause harm.


Do I acknowledge that given that human beings aren’t evolved enough to reason like this, that there are times when one either out of self interest or just not being a dick should refrain from using certain words…of course. But never will I agree that the words themselves cause harm because that’s moronic…but yet we as a Society have created the perception of that being objectively true. And have created a system of laws where someone can be punished for using certain words, rather than using those words in furtherance of actual offences such as harassment, assault, criminal damage etc.

[IBK]

That’s far more to do with the emotional association we make with words, which is very irrational.

Like I say it’s about the difference between understanding what society deems offensive which is often arbitrary and accepting that it’s offensive (which I dispute, and even if it is so what? I’m offended by that should mean fuck all…it’s a form of emotional manipulation)

If I was in France and I was being referred to as Le Rosbif, I wouldn’t give a solitary fuck.

I disagree with you that words cannot cause harm.


I rarely personalise things on here, but I have to inform you that as the recipient of racial slurs - the 'n' word etc - as a child this did cause harm in the sense of acute mental distress, and even as an adult I cannot pretend that its easy to simply brush off and intellectualise comments that are intended to belittle or insult you. Unless you have experienced this type of thing, it is difficult to understand the effect of certain offensive - personalised - slurs. As a child they make you feel that there is something wrong with, or not good enough about yourself - it does not matter that objectively you know that this is not the case - the feelings run deep. As an adult, certain insults have the ability to make you feel poweless and embarrased. I had an experience a few years ago when some Neanderthol shouted racial slurs at me when I was with a group of friends and the involuntary sense of embarrassment - both for myself and them - as well as for the perpertator was unmistakable. This from a successful adult who has never (in his adult life) felt remotely inferior to anyone.


In my experience context is everything. The same words that could cause distress as well as insult when used as a slur can have no effect at all when used in a different context. I am a person who is very disinclined to react to every word or even action that might be regarded as offensive by someone more sensitive, but that does not mean that words can never cause harm or distress. And it is not my reaction when it does that is the problem.


The other way that racial; homophobic/transphobic; misogynistic or disablist comments - however flippant - can cause harm is when they inform general perceptions about a group of people. Habits are ingrained, and doing down certain minorities can be a symptom of societal prejudice, and/or perpetuate damaging stereotypes. You take a Sun/Katie Hopkins approach to 'cockroach' immigrants and this undoubtedly informs general opinions - in fact attitudes (and words) to describe immigrants was a powerful encourager of the Brexit vote. Edward Bulwer-Lytton's famous phrase that 'the pen is mightier than the sword' is a truism in many ways - and refers to words, not acts.


I am the first to acknowledge that today's societal tendency to take offence at every little thing (snowflake) is both tiresome; empty-headed and ultimately damaging (devisive). But words can harm - whether or not it is a subjective reaction.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well I’m genuinely sorry you went through that, but what I’m saying isn’t a matter of disagreement it’s a matter of fact. The word itself doesn’t harm you, it’s the association your brain makes between the word and the treatment you received. Now I’m not belittling that treatment, but I think it’s very important to be clear on that matter.

“They make you feel” well I’m sorry to contradict you once again but no one can make you feel anyway, the electro-chemical responses in your brain do that. And what you’re telling me is a contradiction, you can’t tell me I don’t feel stupid or inadequate but it didn’t make any difference because that’s how they made you feel. What you’re saying is the way you internalised the way they treated you led you to believe you were stupid or inadequate.

And for sure if everyone around you treats you as inadequate, you’re bound to feel that way because you don’t have anything to counteract that and it has the effect of wearing you down. And i think people who do that are scum, but at the risk of saying you’re wrong…it’s not the word that does that, it’s the behaviour and the attitudes of others.

You’re right everything is in context, and if those people use the n word that’s your brain flagging up danger. But if somebody you don’t know uses the word from a distance, it’s your brains threat alarm giving you a false warning of danger as well as reminding you of a time when you were mistreated. But it’s still your mental processing causing the “harm”


As for the rest of what you’ve said, I disagree in the strongest possible way. Words aren’t the problem, people are the problem and it’s the emotionally charged meaning we give words that we give them the power over us.


And if you think I’m being insensitive well with the greatest of respect to you, because I don’t mean you any disrespect because I find you to be a completely honest actor….tough. I can’t negotiate on this anymore than I can that biological males can become women.

It is not the external stimuli that causes mental distress it’s the biased way we process it. So the nearest thing I can accept is “certain words cause me to process things in a way that brings up traumatic memories, and this is exacerbated if I choose to indulge this rather than taking steps to remove this words power over me”

It’s not as easy as that for sure….but I’d rather be callous than ever accept something that is factually incorrect to make people feel better

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do think I’m immensely privileged in that I haven’t experienced racial abuse or been mistreated with racism as the motivation. Because my mind isn’t clouded by personalising, I’d like to say I would be clear headed enough to think the way I do anyway but I imagine that’s patronising to people who can’t take an objective view

[Letters]

Talking of racism…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66654965

Ali Bongo? Really?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Talking of racism…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66654965

Ali Bongo? Really?

The election was as free and fair as you’d expect from a tinpot banana republic, but given the military have decided the fairest way to deal with it is a coup d’etat and establishing a junta rather than re-running the election doesn’t really seem that they are invested in a fair outcome

In such countries, coups happen when the man in power is late getting the brown envelopes out to the right people. Mugabe was deposed in Zimbabwe because he wanted to make his wife his successor as head of Zanu PF and whilst she’s just as much a horrible person as she was, they were worried that her expensive tastes which rivalled Imelda Marcos might mean the end of the gravy train.

[Letters]

The name made me laugh because of this bloke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHCFSB4N9s

That was before racism was bad, to be fair.