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Thread: To sack or not to sack?

  1. #1
    Member IBK's Avatar
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    To sack or not to sack?

    Sorry for the recycling - but I thought that this post by Super Ghel was too good to be lost in another thread, and I've been thinking about some of the points made.


    Wenger will not be sacked

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14977442.stm




    Gazidis said: "If we went out and spent all our money we would make bad decisions, so we've been restrained. "The club is focused on a responsible, sustainable model. Football's going that way and people are trying to get where we already are. We represent the future of football."



    Nothing new or surprising here. The time has long since passed for Wenger to be sacked if he was evaluated purely on the basis or regularity of success he brought to the club pitch side. So for him to be consistently awarded bumper new contracts (highest paid in the league?), he must be delivering big time on the performance target(s) set out by the board, otherwise he’d have been shown the exit long ago.

    So what’s this performance yardstick or important benchmark in which Wenger is judged by? None other than the bit in bold quoted above. And where does it stem from? None other than the people at the top of the hierarchy (unless you’re one of those deluded morons with no clue how commercial entities work in reality and believe that an employee is empowered to play master puppeteer in steering the strategic direction of the club) which in turn is laughable as it would then imply that said “custodians” of the club are failing in their primary fiduciary duties of acting in the best interest of the club. Thus the assertion that the buck stops with the manager is actually a logic failure which the Wenger out camp has no answer to this day. Come to think of it, if you blame Wenger for everything whilst not pointing the finger at the board, you are in fact helping to reaffirm the board’s stance that you are indeed a mong!

    The logical question then becomes one of: Is the board right and of sound mind to focus their efforts on the prime directive of self sustainability first instead of pitch side issues? I don’t have a problem with the concept of sustainability per se. I think it’s a laudable aim but I suspect many like me have a problem with the fine print of how said model is implemented. The main problem with the board’s sustainability model is that, it is strictly one way street; i.e. the only contributing party to the equation are the pockets of supporters (paying the highest prices) and not themselves. If you look at it cynically, the only thing you’re doing is to help sustain these fat cats at your own expense at the end of the day!

    The opportunity was there 2 years ago for the board to do the right thing when there were calls for a rights issue proposal (rights issue remains the only viable way to raise un-leveraged capital with zero risk exposure due to the structure of ownership in the club) but going this route meant money had to be pumped in, or come out from the wallet of shareholders themselves. But no, this was shot down by the board with the insinuation that it would not necessarily tie in with their vision of self sustainability (which is bollocks as it was plain to see the board were only trying to wind down their stake on their personal terms, not inject money into the club).

    The board wasted no time in commissioning Rothchilds to spin some pathetic findings in their favour such as the verdict that premature debt settlement was non value added and the club would not save much by repaying early. Fine, there is absolutely no need to do so if debt obligations were well within their projections, but the immediate funds generated would mean a boost to our transfer kitty as Arsene would have a larger pot to play with at the end of the day. That much is irrefutable fact. But no, everything was honky dory when it suited them. No doubt, with the money making machine that is Arsene consistently delivering more than adequate returns with minimal fuss or risk of spending, the opportunity was too good for the board to turn down as they rubbed their hands in anticipation at the prospect of hustling the yank into meeting their asking price.

    Not surprisingly, the only one who was prepared to put his money where his mouth is, was Usmanov, but there was very little outcry at the time because the partisan BNPesque mob bought into the romantic notion and the club’s clever line of “remaining bastion of proud English owners in the land”; when in truth, they were working quietly in the background towards their private agenda or aim of selling out for the highest possible returns when the timing suited them (for example Fiszman, who even managed to get the better of “1 out of the 2 certainties” in life) by sanctioning the parsimonious acts of an employee who bore the brunt of the angst from supporters on the frontline. Brilliant, no?

    Then when some smart ones saw through this deception, their attempts at mass enlightenment were immediately drown out by these closet BNP wannabes who were quick to remind everyone that these good honest folk were trustworthy people who did not take a penny out via dividends (nevermind that any dimwit with any basic knowledge of finance knows that that retained profits subsequently re-invested back into the company equals no big deal or sacrifice on their part as it’s ultimately reflected back via capital gains or appreciation in share price). Besides, these so called men of honour were hardly living on peanuts but were in fact handsomely rewarded in their executive capacity - meaning they fall into high income tax brackets, and any tax smartass (ask ‘arry for pointers) knows that dividends is not a tax efficient method of extracting money from of the club.

    As for Arsene (being a football man) himself, should he have said something or put his foot down knowing the circus act that was occuring in the boardroom? In the end, it comes down to a philosophical debate imo. Who has the right to determine the strategic focus of a club? Is it the fans, who want a steady stream of success and trophies, or does that right belong to the stakeholders who paid the millions to exercise legal control of the club? As an employee and a professional, was it appropriate for him to bite the hand that fed him? In the end I suspect that Arsene, being the idealistic dreamer that he is, with his utopian vision of how football should be responsibly run, saw nothing wrong with the leadership’s stance of self sustainability, as circumstances necessitated a collusion in congruence with the goals and ultimate decision by board members that it is the best way forward for the club, to help protect it against unforeseen financial pressures as a consequence of the stadium project. Hence the emphasis on youth project which so many of you abhor.

    I don’t think the majority of sensible Wengerites out there think he’s untouchable, irreplaceable or beyond reproach, nor are they blind to his flaws, such as his tactical shortcomings for example, but all things considered, I feel they believe the real problem in the club lies with the board/owner and their insistence with self sustainability. Let’s consider this from a different angle with a hypothetical scenario. Suppose Wenger is asked to manage City now while Mancini heads our way, who do you do think stands a better chance of winning the league in the near future? And if Wenger doesn’t deliver the goods, do you think he’ll be able to hang on to his job for more than half a decade? Now you can begin to understand why the pro Wenger camp is worried about him leaving. And if the board is the real problem, then don’t you think it’s risky or foolhardy to lose perhaps the only manager who can keep us competitive in this climate with our board’s obsession with buy low sell high and their unwillingness to budge from our strict wage structure to attract or hang on to established quality? If we do get a new manager, do you think he’ll not have to bend over backwards first and serve our board’s primary MO as well?

    The way I see it, you’re only left with a few possibilities at the end of the day. If you don’t think our board’s obsession with self sustainability is a major hindrance but believe Arsene is the one who is holding the club back, then you need to answer this question for me. Why hasn’t he been sacked by now? If you are still adamant that you are right, and Wenger has to shoulder the blame instead of the board, then we need to establish who is moron here do we not? Is it the Wenger out camp or the board? Since we already know that the board is firmly behind Wenger and regards the Wenger outs as mongs, how is this paradox resolved other than the inevitable conclusion that the Wenger out die-hards are mongs?

    On the other hand, if you subscribe to the logic that the board’s priority with self sustainability is the major stumbling block in our pursuit of the PL trophy, then you either acknowledge that our board is the major culprit and accept out plight begrudgingly, or you move on and vote with your wallet. It’s pointless and a complete waste of time going on in circles about Wenger because (barring a major catastrophe), he’s here to stay for a long, long time. No matter how you try to slice or dice it, the irrefutable fact remains that Arsene has no power of self appointment to keep this drought in a perpetual loop, so if you’re sick of it, you either point the finger at the board or you move one. You’ve got to come to terms and learn to accept it’s either trophies, or self sustainability, as the two cannot co-exist harmoniously. And to hope that an equilibrium can be found in this era of unrestrained megalomaniacs where the two opposing variables can help fulfil all your dreams and desires as an Arsenal fan is just that, a wet dream.
    Putting the laughter back into manslaughter

  2. #2
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    I say sack him,

    If not stick him in a sack and post him back to France.

    Either way he gets sacked.

  3. #3
    Goat Balls fakeyank's Avatar
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    Sack him

  4. #4
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    Don't think it can get much worse with the club at an all time low and us struggling badly for form. We're an injury to Van Persie away from struggling to break into the top ten.

    At the moment it's not the quality of the players that matters, since we still have enough to put up a strong challenge for top four. The players are lost under Wenger's system and a few of them clearly don't have faith in him anymore. There's more wrong with the system than the players imo, and we need another manager to turn it around.

    The King Is Back.

  5. #5
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
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    My position on this is clear. Regardless of the Board watching the balance sheets and how much they can pocket and save, without Wenger, the wheels wouldn’t have been set in motion. This strategy is impossible without Wenger. They saw that he’s able to manage on a small budget and ran with it. He prides himself on having such a record. He boasts about that more than winning silverware. Now if he cared more about silverware than balancing the books, he’d put more pressure on the board to come up with a new strategy. But he insists his way is the right way.

    I lay most of the blame on him because he’s the sportsman. He’s like the athlete. Winning should be the main drive and if he doesn’t have that passion to win and he’s content with playing for 4th then that passion to win has died. He’s burnt out. I’ve said this before, but I don’t expect the Board to tell Wenger to spend more money or what approach he should take to winning the league. That’s not their business. It’s like an accountant giving a mechanic tips on how to fix an oil leak.

    Wenger shouldn’t be content to settle for 4th and for his own pride, he should be aiming higher and I don’t care how much money we have in the bank, losing to Birmingham in the Carling Cup final is downright embarrassing. That comes down to tactics and preparation.

  6. #6
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    I think that Super Ghel's invitation to consider what sustainability means for the board is absolutely spot on. Its sobering to think that none of the current board members (or past ones in recent memory) have put any of their money into the playing side of the club. Kroenke is regarded as 'benign' - but for all his billions he has shown no interest whatsoever in investing in the playing side to allow us to compete in the changed EPL landscape. All he has done is made a share investment that clearly he feels will benefit him in the long run.

    I mentioned a while ago that the US sports franchise model does not require trophies to make it work - largely because of the draft system in many sports. I think it may turn out to be different in the EPL, because support depends to a greater extent on sustained success - in terms of new fans at least - and particularly in the far east. One of the gutting things about the past 6 years for us is that we have been overtaken big stylee in marketing overseas - largely because of the club's conservative approach. One that seems set to continue with Kroenke - who clearly doesn't have the bold vision of Chelsea, Citeh or even Liverpool in investing properly to capture an overseas market. Its a crying shame that the success of the Invincibles in this regard could not be continued, and that we are now left with precious few star names for these purposes. And its a bit bewildering that this hasn't happened when player investment can reap such rich rewards even from a commercial point of view.

    So 'sustainability' at Arsenal has come to mean conservative mediocrity?

    So I agree big time that the board are to blame for our dwindling reputation/performance as a football club. And the fear for me is that when the root cause is to be found at owner/board level things ain't going to improve any time soon.

    Where I differ from Super Ghel is as regards Wenger's role in all of this. I'll buy into the fact that if the board is really about maintaining sghare price without ever contributing externally to the playing side, then I suppose I would agree that we wish for Wenger's demise at our peril (although if AW has really lost his edge then I suppose there are the Moyes's of this world who work miracles on a far tighter shoestring) - because no other manager has managed to maintain a CL place by spending a fraction of his competitors' money on transfer fees.

    But this simple conclusion ignores other aspects of Wenger's management. Would another manager really fare so badly in terms of funding purchases/achieving success if:

    - He avoided the big risks taken by Wenger in spending more than his competitors are willing to do for so-called prodigies like Walcott; Ramsey or Oxlade Chaberlain - who may or may not turn into top class players.

    - He avoided the relatively large salaries paid to pretty ordinary players - the £60+ M pw spent on the likes of Diaby (more than Spurs pay Modric).

    - He adopted a more conventional approach to playing players in their most effective roles.

    - He utilised proper coaching assistence available from (amongst others) ex-Arsenal players who know what they are doing and can improve the team.

    Because the other side of the coin is that despite lack of shareholder investment, Arsenal is not a pauper club by any means - and its not as though currently, the money that AW makes for the club in terms of net transfer income is fully reinvested in the club.

    Which brings me to another point. Even if we accept, as I do, that the shareholders (or the main one) has no interest in investing in the player side - I find it hard to accept that a shareholder looking to maintain or increase share value would deny a manager the transfer funds that he has made. It just doesn't make much commercial sense to me. And if this is accepted, then I think we have to look to Wenger and his principles when it comes to missing out on the best players for the team over relatively small amounts.

    Then comes Wenger's position at the club. Super Ghel says that if Wenger was responsible for holding back the team then he would be sacked. I don't think its as simple as that, though. Firstly it ignores AW's unprecedented power and influence at AFC. He is rightly credited by the board for keeping it 'sustainable' as per the definition above. If we accept what the board is about, why would they have any motive to sack the manager while there is a decent chance of him keeping us in the CL...and even if we finish outside the top 4 this season, or next, a cautious board would look to his track record and perhaps think twice before taking the risk of appointing another manager without this track record.

    But that of itself doesn't mean that AW is not under-performing - by failing to get the best out of the players at his disposal; by his decisions or hesitancy in the transfer market; by his often bizzare experiments with his team; his tolerance of repeated failings from his players; his failure to instill a sense of responsibility; fight; mental strenght in his teams. In fact I would argue that if the board's sights are as low as SG argues, this makes it more, not less likely that they will tolerate these failings - provided that the end result is the same.

    In short, could and should Wenger have done better for the past few years, and might another manager have done so? Surely this is the real question.

    My final point concerns AW's attitude towards the fans. SG accuses the board of spin - well if they are to be so accused, then the manager has to be criticised for this too. Because I would say that the AW has been at least complicit in the lack of proper communication from the club that has alienated its fans. I don;t see Wenger as some little 'yes man' employee. And in fairness neither do I see him as a man bothered principally by pickig up a big salary cheque. If the board was hindering him or pursuing a policy or philosophy that he didn't agree with then he would walk. IMHO he certainly wouldn't seethe to himself and then take the flak that he has been getting to protect the board. Why would he?

    No - I think that the reality is that manager and board have grown together in terms of philosophy, and that the manager's principal focus has turned from just winning at all costs to winning the 'proper way' - even if this way is doomed to fail.

    And I'll end by saying that my intention is not to try to blame Wenger rather than the shareholders/the board for our fall from glory - but merely to present the other side of the argument when it comes to our manager.

    Thoughts?
    Putting the laughter back into manslaughter

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory View Post
    My position on this is clear. Regardless of the Board watching the balance sheets and how much they can pocket and save, without Wenger, the wheels wouldn’t have been set in motion. This strategy is impossible without Wenger. They saw that he’s able to manage on a small budget and ran with it. He prides himself on having such a record. He boasts about that more than winning silverware. Now if he cared more about silverware than balancing the books, he’d put more pressure on the board to come up with a new strategy. But he insists his way is the right way.

    I lay most of the blame on him because he’s the sportsman. He’s like the athlete. Winning should be the main drive and if he doesn’t have that passion to win and he’s content with playing for 4th then that passion to win has died. He’s burnt out. I’ve said this before, but I don’t expect the Board to tell Wenger to spend more money or what approach he should take to winning the league. That’s not their business. It’s like an accountant giving a mechanic tips on how to fix an oil leak.

    Wenger shouldn’t be content to settle for 4th and for his own pride, he should be aiming higher and I don’t care how much money we have in the bank, losing to Birmingham in the Carling Cup final is downright embarrassing. That comes down to tactics and preparation.
    It took me so long to phrase my response to SG that I've been left behind! But I tend to agree with you that it is, certainly in part, Wenger either setting the agenda or ultimately supporting the board's.
    Putting the laughter back into manslaughter

  8. #8
    Member Power n Glory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping View Post
    It took me so long to phrase my response to SG that I've been left behind! But I tend to agree with you that it is, certainly in part, Wenger either setting the agenda or ultimately supporting the board's.
    We seem to be on the same page with this. If Wenger felt restricted by this club, he’d walk. He takes so much of the heat and if he felt he was getting a raw deal, he’d have snapped by now. Besides, the issues go way beyond transfer funds. Wenger is like an athlete. Coaches and players should have that burning desire to win. That’s why they’re in this business. Did Michael Jordan need someone to tell him to go for that winning basket? The instinct to win should be engraved in him. When your content to settle for that runners up medal then something is wrong.

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    For this club to break this cycle of stagnation both the board and the manager need to go IMO.

  10. #10
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    Both are as bad as each other

    Wenger has destroyed this club from within and the board have sat back and let him do it.

    Both need to go asap and get Usmanov in asap

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