Wenger on contract renewals

[Syn]

“In general, what is very important to understand is that we survived at the top in selling our good players,” said Wenger.

“What happened is that we sold them around the age of 29 and 30. Why? Because we needed the money and for them to not go for free.

“I adopted a way of thinking that it was better to sell a player one year too early than one year too late. If you sell too late you don't get any money and you cannot buy anymore. If you sell a player early he can still sign a longer contract somewhere else.

“In the cases of players like Patrick and Thierry, they were players who had given us nine years - their best years. Patrick could have made twice as much somewhere else with a four-year contract, but I did not want to give that to him.

“What happens in football is that a player goes over his peak and you still have to pay him the maximum money. There's always a difference between the moment when a player is well paid and his performance - there is a delay.

“When you get to a player who is 29, 30 years old and you want to renew his contract, you pay mega money knowing that he will give you two years at his best when he is a striker.

“You have to be calculated and ask if you can pay this money, then ask if you can keep five or six players who are into their 30s and cannot give you their maximum.

“Of course in these situations you can only achieve things as men, with heart and respect. But in these situations your intelligence has to rule your heart. That is vital.”

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-it-has-to-be-head-over-heart

Subtle, Arsene.

He might not be at his ‘best’ at 29-33, he can still be fucking good. Particularly if that striker doesn’t really rely on pace and strength like a Drogba but more on intelligence and technique.

(Hope the bold text really helps the message sink in. Any feedback would be much appreciated xx).

[fakeyank]

RVP :wave:

[Power n Glory]

The people that argue that Wenger is getting screwed by the board need to pay attention to these sort of statements.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just as people need to understand that Wenger works for the board and does their bidding. The board cannot wash their hands and claim they are leaving the financial affairs of the club to the manager and I don't think they even try to do that. Only some of the fans seem to entertain such an implausible idea.

[Niall_Quinn]

Subtle, Arsene.

He might not be at his ‘best’ at 29-33, he can still be fucking good. Particularly if that striker doesn’t really rely on pace and strength like a Drogba but more on intelligence and technique.

(Hope the bold text really helps the message sink in. Any feedback would be much appreciated xx).

It just demonstrates why we have come up short year after year, it has been about money, not trophies. It's also about Wenger's and the board's definition of competing at the top - in fact he uses the word "surviving" which is enough in itself to tell us everything. This would all be okay of at the same time the highest ticket prices in the world were not being demanded. That's the part none of them want to square away. 4th place is definitely viewed as a major achievement by the executives. Several key players have already disagreed with this policy by moving on. It would be hard to imagine any fan saying 4th was an achievement in terms of being "at the top". It irritates even more because we were so close on several occasions but refused to spend that little bit extra. The board wants a profit in the transfer window, Wenger gets them a profit, we get no trophies, that's the story. Their plan to let fair play compensate for their miserly approach was always doomed. And they must have known that. It was always just a stupid excuse.

[Syn]

It just demonstrates why we have come up short year after year, it has been about money, not trophies. It's also about Wenger's and the board's definition of competing at the top - in fact he uses the word "surviving" which is enough in itself to tell us everything. This would all be okay of at the same time the highest ticket prices in the world were not being demanded. That's the part none of them want to square away. 4th place is definitely viewed as a major achievement by the executives. Several key players have already disagreed with this policy by moving on. It would be hard to imagine any fan saying 4th was an achievement in terms of being "at the top". It irritates even more because we were so close on several occasions but refused to spend that little bit extra. The board wants a profit in the transfer window, Wenger gets them a profit, we get no trophies, that's the story. Their plan to let fair play compensate for their miserly approach was always doomed. And they must have known that. It was always just a stupid excuse.

3 things:

1: I don't think 'money' is the reason we've missed out on trophies. I don't think cup trophies are a good indicator of how well a team is doing. I think that only really is determined by league position. But we have had plenty of opportunities to lift a cup/league and the players in the squad have been good enough ability-wise...but the mentality has been fragile and that's the reason we've missed out. We might've nabbed a couple of trophies with a bit more luck too but I don't think a lack of investment is the main reason.

2: It is true that we could have done (and could be doing) a lot better on the pitch if we at least get back what we make in terms of transfers. In recent seasons we've seen only a fraction of the £41m from the sales of Adebayor and Toure and £70m odd gained from Clichy, Fabregas, Nasri sales being invested. Liverpool lose Torres, they've got Suarez and Carroll straight in. Tottenham spend a lot but they're using money gained from transfer sales (Berbatov, Carrick or whoever). And if we're not going to see replacements for our best players leaving, at least take £10m and shove it in Van Persie's wallet. If the other players in the squad don't like it - tell them they can have the same if they start netting better than a goal a game.

3: Wenger's words here are not the words of a football manager. He's talking about players like assets. He's only concerned with re-sale value. I think it's very clear what Wenger's job at the club is. Most football managers are given a maximum budget to spend and told to maximise on-field success. Wenger's job is to maximise profits with the constraint that we have to be in the top 4. If Wenger's job was to maximise on-field success with a £70m budget, he'd gladly piss away £10m on Van Persie...as would anyone. Wenger is carrying out the work of his employers and doing it very well - which is why they're all happy with him and why Wenger is paid 'handsomely'.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's a fair enough point on trophies, but I see a trophy (at least a significant one) as the sum of all the parts coming together to achieve more than that sum, the extra edge. And when anything is lacking that means it has to be compensated for in other areas. We tried to get away with a lack of experience by playing kids. We tried to cater for injuries by having sub-standard replacements. It all adds up and counts against you in the end. And it's just a bad message to be sending around the club, 2nd best (or 4th best as the case may be).

The transfer thing and the ambitions of the club we agree on. Both a scandal. Now we're playing some decent football again I've pushed it to the back of my mind - probably saving it up for the summer. I won't be so disappointed if we don't do any business in January because it's pretty difficult to find suitable players mid season. But if we let RvP leave in the summer and replace him with a cut-price option so the board can pocket the rest, I'll definitely sulk a lot.

[Power n Glory]

Just as people need to understand that Wenger works for the board and does their bidding. The board cannot wash their hands and claim they are leaving the financial affairs of the club to the manager and I don't think they even try to do that. Only some of the fans seem to entertain such an implausible idea.

He does his job but that statement there shows a serious flaw in his philosophy. His argument about player value and peak performances is something only a football manager could asses. It worries me that he can talk like his when we're negotiating a new deal for RVP who will pass his peak soon. If RVP wants more money and the Board ask Wenger if he thinks he's worth the wages, the last thing you want to hear from Wenger is the above. He justifies the sale of key players with such talk and doesn't make the counter argument that the sale of key players and lack of consistency has damaged our chances. We can't keep swapping and changing key playere like this. He shoudln't be talking like this. With such talk, you now know why he won't agree to the sale of a player Chamakh and top up RVP's wages with the money saved. As I've always thought, if Wenger doesn't think a player is worth it, he won't budge on price.

[Niall_Quinn]

He does his job but that statement there shows a serious flaw in his philosophy. His argument about player value and peak performances is something only a football manager could asses. It worries me that he can talk like his when we're negotiating a new deal for RVP who will pass his peak soon. If RVP wants more money and the Board ask Wenger if he thinks he's worth the wages, the last thing you want to hear from Wenger is the above. He justifies the sale of key players with such talk and doesn't make the counter argument that the sale of key players and lack of consistency has damaged our chances. We can't keep swapping and changing key playere like this. He shoudln't be talking like this. With such talk, you now know why he won't agree to the sale of a player Chamakh and top up RVP's wages with the money saved. As I've always thought, if Wenger doesn't think a player is worth it, he won't budge on price.

To be fair we're doing just as well having had a mass clearout as we've done persuading players to hang on, we'll still probably finish 4th this year. And we'll still have the highest ticket prices in the world. There's a flaw in his philosophy IF it is his philosophy as opposed to his job description. Employees talk shit on behalf of their shy bosses all the time - in public at least. Few will say anything to upset those bosses. If Wenger is being paid £6mill a year to finish 4th, develop players and flog them for a profit then he's doing that job monotonously well. The question is, does he set his own job description? And if he does, we have to assume the board sees eye to eye with him. But in reality it's a lot more realistic to assume he's doing what he's told, just like any other employee.

[Coney]

I don't think 'money' is the reason we've missed out on trophies. I don't think cup trophies are a good indicator of how well a team is doing. I think that only really is determined by league position. But we have had plenty of opportunities to lift a cup/league and the players in the squad have been good enough ability-wise...but the mentality has been fragile and that's the reason we've missed out. We might've nabbed a couple of trophies with a bit more luck too but I don't think a lack of investment is the main reason.


Money spent on certain players would have made some difference. Unlimited money - like Chavs and Citeh d0 makes a big difference in that you can buy the matured product straight from the shelf and managing then becomes just a question of matchday tactics. Limited money means you have to also balance the books and therefore have to manage more in the traditional sense.

However, the reason for our failures was that we had not bought backbone players - not necessarily players with the ultimate top skills but ones with resilience and leadership qualities who also have good enough skills to perform as well. Wenger did not do this in the first few years of the 'experiment' - for whatever reason - and we ended up with a lot of players of great potential but fragile as a team, causing the collapses when we got past 2/3rds of the season.

Now whether he has got the board to agree to something he wanted to do, whether he has 'seen the light' or the 'error of his ways', this summer's purchase of experienced players has produced a more resililent squad. As soon as the backbone was added to the squad, the change was immediately obvious in result terms. We did not go out and spend silly sums on big name players, we just went and bought some experience to glue together the players we have so they stick at it when we are having poor games.

As far as the old chestnut posted by other GWers of the board not wanting trophies, just a top 4 place - that is utter crap. While we do need to try and finish in the top four to get the extra revenue, if we do not win the occasional trophy, then that will also cost the club financially in the long run as the support drops away. Top four is important as no Arsenal supporter in their right mind would want us not to get what money was available. But trophies are important whether you are a basic supporter, member of the board, shareholder, or any mercenary just in it for the money. All still need trophy success to fullfill their wishes.

[tigerthesmurf85]

It's so important that we sign our best players. Not only players like RVP but Walcott and Song etc. So glad that Vermaelen signed a new one.

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest given the increasing fitness levels in the game today, most players should be good enough to play into their early 30's, providing they take care of themselves. Always thought Wengers places too much emphasis on players who hit 29.

[Niall_Quinn]

As far as the old chestnut posted by other GWers of the board not wanting trophies, just a top 4 place - that is utter crap. While we do need to try and finish in the top four to get the extra revenue, if we do not win the occasional trophy, then that will also cost the club financially in the long run as the support drops away.

The board that steered us from champions to also-rans has effectively gone, there is no long term for them. They've had their cash, sacks of it. The fact they are still hanging around like a stink doesn't mean their own agendas haven't been executed - and very successfully from their point of view.

[Letters]

1: I don't think 'money' is the reason we've missed out on trophies. I don't think cup trophies are a good indicator of how well a team is doing. I think that only really is determined by league position. But we have had plenty of opportunities to lift a cup/league and the players in the squad have been good enough ability-wise...but the mentality has been fragile and that's the reason we've missed out. We might've nabbed a couple of trophies with a bit more luck too but I don't think a lack of investment is the main reason.


IMO Wenger's biggest achievement in the last 6 years is keeping us relatively competitive while all around us spend far more than we either can or want to. Despite that we've been in at least 2 title races and 2 cup finals. But Wenger's biggest failing in the last 6 years is building a squad technically good enough to win trophies but mentally so weak that they crumble when it matters and fail to finish the job. It's a maddening combination and the frustrating thing is it wouldn't have taken huge amounts of money to fix. I think the players we 'panic bought' at the end of the transfer window may have brought us a bit of much needed steel, there does seem to be a difference in the team right now and I'm encouraged that in several games in our good run we've had setbacks - either gone behind or been pegged back - and we've gone on to win those games. There seems to be more fight about the team. It may not yield a trophy but with City blundering their way into the equation trophies are harder to come by these days. IMO this lot will at least try their best and if we end up trophyless again it won't be for want of effort. That's good enough for me.

[Kano]

Subtle, Arsene.

He might not be at his ‘best’ at 29-33, he can still be fucking good. Particularly if that striker doesn’t really rely on pace and strength like a Drogba but more on intelligence and technique.

in terms of letting players go at the right time, it's hard to find many mistakes

[Coney]

The board that steered us from champions to also-rans has effectively gone, there is no long term for them. They've had their cash, sacks of it. The fact they are still hanging around like a stink doesn't mean their own agendas haven't been executed - and very successfully from their point of view.

Yes, but they'll still be looking for more - it's in their nature.

[Coney]

in terms of letting players go at the right time, it's hard to find many mistakes

Yeah - while money is not the only thing you need, you still need to maximise your return and sell while they have a value.

[LDG]

To be fair we're doing just as well having had a mass clearout as we've done persuading players to hang on, we'll still probably finish 4th this year. And we'll still have the highest ticket prices in the world. There's a flaw in his philosophy IF it is his philosophy as opposed to his job description. Employees talk shit on behalf of their shy bosses all the time - in public at least. Few will say anything to upset those bosses. If Wenger is being paid £6mill a year to finish 4th, develop players and flog them for a profit then he's doing that job monotonously well. The question is, does he set his own job description? And if he does, we have to assume the board sees eye to eye with him. But in reality it's a lot more realistic to assume he's doing what he's told, just like any other employee.

I agree with what Syn said, in that he is doing the boards will, and as such carrying out his part of the bargain.

I also believe that his "own" job description would have included winning shit. He wants to win trophies, he hates losing. Any fool can see that.

We'll never know, but I think, inside at least, he'll be wishing he had a few more quid to spend.

[Marc Overmars]

I get the need to sell these guys at the right time for financial reasons, but then there is an equal need to adequately replace them. I don't feel that happened and in some cases, attempts weren't even made to replace. I think Hleb was our only signing in the summer Vieira left. You can say Fabregas was already there to step in but we're talking about Patrick Vieira here, the spine and driving force behind the team for 8 years. We didn't buy a striker when Adebayor left, at that time he was the only reliable striker we had because RVP was inevitably dead most of the time.

The biggest problem was that the club didn't spend the money it generated, and when it did, they did the absolute bare minimum and that's where the frustration lies for me.

[Coney]

I get the need to sell these guys at the right time for financial reasons, but then there is an equal need to adequately replace them.

Exactly. While we need people coming up through the ranks, if they are not ready, we need to buy the occasional off-the-shelf and ready player. I think Wenger assumed the newbies where more advanced than they were - while their footballing skills might well have been there or there abouts, their resilience on the pitch was not so good. Now while you can deal with some of the players' heads going down and others in the team being around to pick them up, that's fine, but when there are practically no older wiser heads, then the team slides when things go wrong.

Anyway, I reckon we have known this for ages, Wenger has known this at least since August and I think the lesson has been learned. At least, I bloody well hope so.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I agree with Coney that it is utter crap thay the club sufficez with a top four position, rather that is the mininmum of our aims. . . .nobody can tell me that after last years LC loss, that Wenger walked into the changing room and said 'Chin up lads, we still got 4th place to play for'

Fourth guarantees a chance to play in Europes premier competition and tells some that we are not far behind the best in the land. . . .although someone forgot to mention that the chasm between fourth and the top three is. . .was quite significant.

I reckon this time is different and we have more winners, there is a different mental about the time and that coupled with some shrewd business come January could show us that we can dare hope once again.

[Özim]

I agree with what Syn said, in that he is doing the boards will, and as such carrying out his part of the bargain.

I also believe that his "own" job description would have included winning shit. He wants to win trophies, he hates losing. Any fool can see that.

We'll never know, but I think, inside at least, he'll be wishing he had a few more quid to spend.
I believe that if he was a "winner" he would have given the board an ultimatum, the fact he hasn't shows he's perfectly happy with things and with getting 4th place every year. Do you think the likes of Ferguson or Mourinho would settle for that?

At the end of the day noone forces him to stay and sign new contracts, if he wasn't happy he could walk, 6 million a year probably keeps him happy though, it's money over football at the end of the day.

He's not a victim in all this, he has a choice, he chooses to stay and get paid handsomely for 4th place.

[Power n Glory]

To be fair we're doing just as well having had a mass clearout as we've done persuading players to hang on, we'll still probably finish 4th this year. And we'll still have the highest ticket prices in the world. There's a flaw in his philosophy IF it is his philosophy as opposed to his job description. Employees talk shit on behalf of their shy bosses all the time - in public at least. Few will say anything to upset those bosses. If Wenger is being paid £6mill a year to finish 4th, develop players and flog them for a profit then he's doing that job monotonously well. The question is, does he set his own job description? And if he does, we have to assume the board sees eye to eye with him. But in reality it's a lot more realistic to assume he's doing what he's told, just like any other employee.

How can a Board memeber set such a policy? How do they know when a player has hit their peak or how many years they have left performing at the top level? That is something only a manager can determine. His job description may be to stay in the top four and to save money but how Wenger goes about it is up to him. I can't see the point in keeping 2-3 players on the payroll that don't perform but refusing to give an older player a good contract because we fear his performance will drop.

You've got to start looking at the langauage Wenger is using here and how scientific he is regarding performance and stats. Fair enough, the Board want to save money but the philosophy of how we go about it is down to Wenger because he's the expert on player peak and conditioning. I just hope he's not referring to RVP's contract situation. But he freely talks about this stuff and we've seen managers and clubs in far worse financial conditions and you never ever hear them talk like this.

[LDG]

I believe that if he was a "winner" he would have given the board an ultimatum, the fact he hasn't shows he's perfectly happy with things and with getting 4th place every year. Do you think the likes of Ferguson or Mourinho would settle for that?

At the end of the day noone forces him to stay and sign new contracts, if he wasn't happy he could walk, 6 million a year probably keeps him happy though, it's money over football at the end of the day.

He's not a victim in all this, he has a choice, he chooses to stay and get paid handsomely for 4th place.

Hmmm.

Well, I happen to believe that he thought he had a squad good enough to challenge. And based on last year (pre fuck up) he did.

Think the dolly's may have gone out of the pram when Nasri and Cesc went though. So I'm expecting us to invest in January. Just my take.

Yes, he has fucked up. Yes, the project didn't work. But you only have to look at him to see how fucked off he was last year; And the additions he's made this year (and for peanuts) would show to me that he's ditched the project, and taken a good look at himself.

Just my take.

[Özim]

Hmmm.

Well, I happen to believe that he thought he had a squad good enough to challenge. And based on last year (pre fuck up) he did.

Think the dolly's may have gone out of the pram when Nasri and Cesc went though. So I'm expecting us to invest in January. Just my take.

Yes, he has fucked up. Yes, the project didn't work. But you only have to look at him to see how fucked off he was last year; And the additions he's made this year (and for peanuts) would show to me that he's ditched the project, and taken a good look at himself.

Just my take.
I'm not denying he likes winning games and doesn't like losing in reality, because it's clear he does and doesn.t, but it's the degree to which he does. He's often said winning isn't everything and his comments about strikers who are 29-30 years of age is again a financial one, a manager with winning on his mind would be thinking can this guy help us win a trophy.

His belief in his squad cannot be doubted, it's a big flaw though as he's unable to dettach himself and see the reality, in the summer he lost players and after a bad beating we were left with little choice but to make panic buys (something he said he'd never do incidentally). They seem to have worked out well so far and we're doing OK, though it's fair to say these players probably weren't our first choice signings, we'll have to see how we do next year when we usually collapse to see if things have really changed though.

The teams work ethic certainly seems better, though we are relying on the one player who Wenger seems to be referring to a lot,

[Kano]

I believe that if he was a "winner" he would have given the board an ultimatum, the fact he hasn't shows he's perfectly happy with things and with getting 4th place every year. Do you think the likes of Ferguson or Mourinho would settle for that?

At the end of the day noone forces him to stay and sign new contracts, if he wasn't happy he could walk, 6 million a year probably keeps him happy though, it's money over football at the end of the day.

He's not a victim in all this, he has a choice, he chooses to stay and get paid handsomely for 4th place.

you have NO idea what conversations have taken place. if you do, can you share with the other kids please

[Özim]

you have NO idea what conversations have taken place. if you do, can you share with the other kids please
I know he's still there, if he wasn't he could have left...that's enough to come to the conclusion that he's happy enough with his targets.

[Niall_Quinn]

How can a Board memeber set such a policy? How do they know when a player has hit their peak or how many years they have left performing at the top level? That is something only a manager can determine. His job description may be to stay in the top four and to save money but how Wenger goes about it is up to him. I can't see the point in keeping 2-3 players on the payroll that don't perform but refusing to give an older player a good contract because we fear his performance will drop.

You've got to start looking at the langauage Wenger is using here and how scientific he is regarding performance and stats. Fair enough, the Board want to save money but the philosophy of how we go about it is down to Wenger because he's the expert on player peak and conditioning. I just hope he's not referring to RVP's contract situation. But he freely talks about this stuff and we've seen managers and clubs in far worse financial conditions and you never ever hear them talk like this.

I'm not saying the board micro-manages in that way. But if they say to him, make us £10mill this year then he immediately operates within a certain space, doesn't he? The contract policy starts to make sense. I'm the same, I hope he's not referring to RvP's contract but the chances are he is. We've already been here with Nasri, if RvP doesn't want to sign on the board's timescale then consider him gone. I don't think much of Wenger's statistical minutiae either and can't see what it has yielded, if anything we seem to have more and longer injuries than anyone else. But for me it's all a symptom of the board milking the club and the fans. Even Wenger's blind faith in certain players, does he THINK they will come good or is he HOPING beyond hope they will because he has precious few other choices?

[Syn]

I didn't really want this to turn into another 'board vs wenger' thread but here's my take: I don't think anyone questions that he wants to win. You can visibly see he was suffering on the touchline in the last few years. But ultimately the fact that he hasn't won doesn't appear to be any problem for the board. Money buys you good players, good players help you do better. Even Wenger would know this. If he had the money available, and he was told to win us the league, he would spend it. If he doesn't spend it and we fail, the board have to sack him after repeated failure to do so. The fact that they haven't sacked him suggests they're more than happy with it. The fact that money is still not being spent suggests that Wenger is under no pressure to do so. Wenger is not a victim though - the board have set-up this game and he's happy to play it. The board, Wenger and anyone at the club can say what they want, but actions speak louder than words.

But back to the contract situation: @TT: 'in terms of letting players go at the right time, it's hard to find many mistakes' - that's a bit of self-confirming idea. We can't find mistakes because we have let them go. When we have continued to let our first-team players go, we have to keep re-building. Having more continuity would've helped. I think Man Utd have done this very well. Keeping Pires on for a couple more years - even though not at his best - would still have strengthened the squad depth...and squad depth has been the main problem. The first-team have always been as good as any but the players coming in to cover for injuries haven't been solid players.

I think Van Persie wants to stay at the club. I can't prove it but it's what I think - he has a strong connection with the club and no real connection with any other. I'm guessing he's settled in London. I think he is enjoying being the centre of attention and being the hero after Cesc's departure. I think he probably wants a lot more money as he believes a player of his ability could be earning a lot more elsewhere. He wants the club to do well but he's also not a child and I don't think he'd enjoy counting trophies playing a limited role elsewhere. I think he knows he hasn't got many years left playing at a 'goal a game' standard and he'll know that he has to be a 'goal a game' player to play for any teams better than Arsenal. I don't think he will want to stay in England if he does leave, which means Barcelona, Real Madrid or, currently, Bayern are the only teams clearly better than Arsenal. I reckon we could get him to stay if we offer him enough money. But Wenger's words here are very discouraging and he seems to be preparing us for Van Persie's exit. Whoever the words are from, they are trying to rationalise the decision to not meet the demands of a striker because they don't feel he's worth the mega money (£150k or whatever) for more than 2 years and then he might only be a £70k player. Personally, I think there would be another damaging impact in the squad if, again, the star man leaves...because, at the moment, we really haven't got any more left. Maybe Wilshere will get there soon but having missed over half a season, his development might be set back a bit. Even if Van Persie's playing ability is not worth the money he's demanding (assuming it's not completely ridiculous), the damage his loss would have probably more than covers it. Just pay him the fucking money tbf.

[Kano]

I know he's still there, if he wasn't he could have left...that's enough to come to the conclusion that he's happy enough with his targets.

no it isn't. if only life was so simple and black and white

[Özim]

no it isn't. if only life was so simple and black and white
It is simple, if you're not happy in a job you leave....noone would stop him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just pay him the fucking money tbf.

We'll see soon enough if there is any difference between this Kroenke guy and the rat bastards he replaced.

[Letters]

It is simple, if you're not happy in a job you leave....noone would stop him.

Unless you've signed a contract for a certain number of years and feel obliged to honour it.

[Kano]

It is simple, if you're not happy in a job you leave....noone would stop him.

do you always? or do you balance out the things you like with the things you don't and then decide? 'disagreement on something doesn't mean you leave does it? you can't have much fabric as a man if so

[Coney]

I believe that if he was a "winner" he would have given the board an ultimatum, the fact he hasn't shows he's perfectly happy with things and with getting 4th place every year. Do you think the likes of Ferguson or Mourinho would settle for that?

No. And neither does Wenger. The idea that he is happy with that is ridiculous. It is important to be in the CL each year for the money the club gets and to keep players interested in joining the club. But how you plan a season from the start to be 4th beats me. And do you stop the team winning when you get to 4th? It's just nonsense.

[Letters]

As Syn says you can see how much the end of last season hurt him. He wasn't happy with 4th place

[Fist of Lehmann]

The case of Dennis Bergkamp springs to mind, 37 when he finally retired in 2006. He was the kind of vision and technique player less affected by age than the more physical types. But the key reason he stayed is because he was willing to accept 1 year contracts on declining pay.

Bergkamp was a one off though, both in his ability in advanced old age and in his willingness to to accept lesser contracts. He was extremely canny in investing his money so didn't feel any pressing need to maximise his earnings.

Wenger talks about needing to sell while the player still has some value in order to adequately replace. That suggests to me that we are an organisation that needs to maximise it's assets pretty aggressively. Older declining players on high wages and declining in value are a luxury we seem unwilling to afford.

It seems to me that Wenger's assessment of players is heavily informed by data. A player's workrate drops on 70 minutes, his speed starts going at 29. But we've seen this season how the benefits of older players isn't always measurable, because psychological influences are hard to quantify.

Players like Scholes and Giggs were critical to Mantoucher last season, but they have no sell-on value and their wages are/were high. You doubt they would have lasted much past 30 with us.

Having said all that, I'm not sure these comments have anything to do with RvP's contract situation. Selling RvP now would be more than 1 year too early, provided he can stay fit, it could be about 3 years too early.

[Syn]

:rolleyes:

Spending money gets you good players. Wenger is not spending money - only a fraction of what he's making the club in terms of transfers and forget about Man City and Chelsea; way behind Liverpool, Tottenham...and probably way behind most clubs if you're looking at proportion of the transfer sales spent. Why is he doing that? Everyone knows you can buying a couple more good players gives you a better chance of doing well. Despite some people talking as if Wenger's an idiot, I'm sure he would know this as well. It's common sense. If he isn't spending money and we aren't achieving the targets of 'winning stuff' (as you claim the club's aims are) then surely the natural next step is to spend. He isn't - which suggests he's under little pressure to do so. Which means achieving a CL spot is considered 'fine' for the club. I know Wenger has a contract but he signed a contract only last year - he was in this game then so he knew exactly what to expect. He could've walked away - and he still can - by explaining he's not happy with the financial restrictions and I don't think there's a single Arsenal fan that would blame him for doing so.

[Syn]

The case of Dennis Bergkamp springs to mind, 37 when he finally retired in 2006. He was the kind of vision and technique player less affected by age than the more physical types. But the key reason he stayed is because he was willing to accept 1 year contracts on declining pay.

Bergkamp was a one off though, both in his ability in advanced old age and in his willingness to to accept lesser contracts. He was extremely canny in investing his money so didn't feel any pressing need to maximise his earnings.

Wenger talks about needing to sell while the player still has some value in order to adequately replace. That suggests to me that we are an organisation that needs to maximise it's assets pretty aggressively. Older declining players on high wages and declining in value are a luxury we seem unwilling to afford.

It seems to me that Wenger's assessment of players is heavily informed by data. A player's workrate drops on 70 minutes, his speed starts going at 29. But we've seen this season how the benefits of older players isn't always measurable, because psychological influences are had to quantify.

Players like Scholes and Giggs were critical to Mantoucher last season, but they have no sell-on value and their wages are/were high. You doubt they would have lasted much past 30 with us.

Having said all that, I'm not sure these comments have anything to do with RvP's contract situation. Selling RvP now would be more than 1 year too early, provided he can stay fit, it could be about 3 years too early.

:gp:

But I think his comments have a lot to do with RVP's situation. He goes out of his way to single out 'striker' explicitly talks about 29/30 years old. I know it starts off about Henry and Vieira but IMO he's preparing us.

[Özim]

Unless you've signed a contract for a certain number of years and feel obliged to honour it.
You forget he signed a new contract, noone made him do so and if he wasn't happy he could have set out certain conditions.

[Özim]

do you always? or do you balance out the things you like with the things you don't and then decide? 'disagreement on something doesn't mean you leave does it? you can't have much fabric as a man if so
Well if I wasn't happy in a job I'd leave, why let it ruin your life.

There's other jobs out there, plus he's not short of a bob or two, he's happy enough with the situation or he'd not have signed a new contract and would have left.

[Özim]

No. And neither does Wenger. The idea that he is happy with that is ridiculous. It is important to be in the CL each year for the money the club gets and to keep players interested in joining the club. But how you plan a season from the start to be 4th beats me. And do you stop the team winning when you get to 4th? It's just nonsense.
It's not about planning for 4th, it's settling for it.

If you don't invest in quality and make the necessary changes and instead opt to stick with players who haven't performed because better ones would cost money, you're settling.

Plus if you factor in all the comments about 4th place over the years it's clear he values it a lot, it's like a major trophy to him. Maybe someone would create a cardboard cutout trophy for 4th place so we can place it in our trophy cabinet.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's not about planning for 4th, it's settling for it.

Wrong, this year it's about being grateful and relieved to get 4th. Expectations are way down, performances are way up. Maybe we were all a bit spoiled and expected too much. I say let's just be done with this - kill the board members and move on, let bygones be biplanes.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Plus if you factor in all the comments about 4th place over the years it's clear he values it a lot, it's like a major trophy to him. Maybe someone would create a cardboard cutout trophy for 4th place so we can place it in our trophy cabinet.

Are you that Naive to believe that crap that comes out of the media. Just because he says he is happy with 4th ot does not mean he means it. If he said next week that We will win the league this season what would you say to that, would you say he is ambitious or is off his head?

I do get what your saying tbf, but i think he gets about winning things and wants to but also wants to do things his way. if anything he is more stubborn then not ambitious.

[Özim]

Are you that Naive to believe that crap that comes out of the media. Just because he says he is happy with 4th ot does not mean he means it. If he said next week that We will win the league this season what would you say to that, would you say he is ambitious or is off his head?

I do get what your saying tbf, but i think he gets about winning things and wants to but also wants to do things his way. if anything he is more stubborn then not ambitious.
It's not just the media though, it's years of the same thing 4th place....at some point a manager desperate to win decides he needs to change something...Wenger didn't until he was literally forced to.

He's just not proactive enough which kinda shows winning isn't the be all and end all for him, now sure you see him rant and rave on the sidelines but 10 minutes later he's back with excuses....doesn't wash for me, in his head he's decided 4th is a great achievement and that whilst winning would be good if we don't that's life.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's not just the media though, it's years of the same thing 4th place....at some point a manager desperate to win decides he needs to change something...Wenger didn't until he was literally forced to.He's just not proactive enough which kinda shows winning isn't the be all and end all for him, now sure you see him rant and rave on the sidelines but 10 minutes later he's back with excuses....doesn't wash for me, in his head he's decided 4th is a great achievement and that whilst winning would be good if we don't that's life.

Like i said he's stubbon thats the problem, though he is learning to put the team 1st. don't see a point in looking backwards, what happend has happend.

Its what he does now that should count.

[Kano]

Well if I wasn't happy in a job I'd leave, why let it ruin your life.

There's other jobs out there, plus he's not short of a bob or two, he's happy enough with the situation or he'd not have signed a new contract and would have left.

why would being unhappy about part of your job ruin your life? that's why you weigh up what you do like against what you don't and make your decision. which is just as likely for wenger each time he renews a contract.

everything isn't black or white. you can still work at a job where some elements aren't favourable but overall you feel its worth staying on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You forget he signed a new contract, noone made him do so and if he wasn't happy he could have set out certain conditions.

I'm a bit pissed off at work because the cold water dispenser near my desk is on the blink. It has been like that for a while even though it has been brought to facilities management's' attention. Everything else about the working environment is fine.

Should I resign?

[Özim]

I'm a bit pissed off at work because the cold water dispenser near my desk is on the blink. It has been like that for a while even though it has been brought to facilities management's' attention. Everything else about the working environment is fine.

Should I resign?
If you work for a cold water dispenser manufacturer yes, you'll be out of a job soon enough with those faulty dispensers.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm a bit pissed off at work because the cold water dispenser near my desk is on the blink. It has been like that for a while even though it has been brought to facilities management's' attention. Everything else about the working environment is fine.

Should I resign?

Of course not! I assume, as with most businesses, you as the employee have full control. You should order your boss to replace the dispenser and probably have a coffee machine put in while you are at it. Then I'd strongly consider sacking him.

[Özim]

why would being unhappy about part of your job ruin your life? that's why you weigh up what you do like against what you don't and make your decision. which is just as likely for wenger each time he renews a contract.

everything isn't black or white. you can still work at a job where some elements aren't favourable but overall you feel its worth staying on.
He's a football manager, supposedly a top one, success is the marker for top managers and anyone who cares about success will not be happy unless they win. If the board aren't willing to give you the opportunity theyn I think you'd probably leave unless money was your motivation.

People are saying he wants to win, if he wants to so badly why is he happy to stick around and pick up 4th place every season? You can make all the excuses but having a chance of success for a manager at a top club isn't a small part of the job, it should be the aim.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Of course not! I assume, as with most businesses, you as the employee have full control. You should order your boss to replace the dispenser and probably have a coffee machine put in while you are at it. Then I'd strongly consider sacking him.

I might just do that because a barista would cost way too much.

[Kano]

He's a football manager, supposedly a top one, success is the marker for top managers and anyone who cares about success will not be happy unless they win. If the board aren't willing to give you the opportunity theyn I think you'd probably leave unless money was your motivation.

People are saying he wants to win, if he wants to so badly why is he happy to stick around and pick up 4th place every season? You can make all the excuses but having a chance of success for a manager at a top club isn't a small part of the job, it should be the aim.

there is still job satisfaction if you can't achieve your ultimate aim. thats why so many players and managers continue to ply their trade at a lower level, despite never coming close to achieving success, even on a lower league scale.

you seem to live in a very do or die type world, which doesn't seem to leave much room for enjoyment of anything else bar complete success.

[AKBapologist]

This thread is proof that Wenger could go to the highest mountain and say "I don't actually have any money to spend" and people would then twist that around to suggest that this is still down to the manager and no one else. QQ

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why would he go to Everest to do that?

[GP]

Why would he go to Everest to do that?

They make good windows, tbh.

[dazthegooner]

They make good windows, tbh.

Someone shoot this man... ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

They make good windows, tbh.

Your jokes are transparent.

[Coney]

Your jokes are transparent.

You could have framed that better.

[Master Splinter]

You could have framed that better.

He prefers a safe style of comedy rather than a cutting edge one.

[Coney]

He prefers a safe style of comedy rather than a cutting edge one.

You think they were Ryanair windows? :unsure:

[Power n Glory]

This thread is proof that Wenger could go to the highest mountain and say "I don't actually have any money to spend" and people would then twist that around to suggest that this is still down to the manager and no one else. QQ

Far from it, I'm afraid. Wenger is talking about a policy that has been around since he first started here. He introduced the 30 plus contract rule from when we were at Highbury. So, this isn't something that has just been introduced because of the Emirates project. I'd agree with you if things weren't like this before the move away from Highbury but his philopsphy hasn't changed in recent years. Also, what he's talking about doesn't relate to our financial position. These are his thoughts. He believes that player wages shouldn't always be on the increase especially when a players performance drops when they reach a certain age. As said, he came to Arsenal with theses ideas and it's not born out of circumstance.

What he says makes sense. Why should a player expect a pay increase when his performance on the pitch is likely to drop. But I wish this sort of thinking was applied to some our youth players. Why are they earning so much when they can't even perform at the required standard?

[AKBapologist]

Far from it, I'm afraid. Wenger is talking about a policy that has been around since he first started here. He introduced the 30 plus contract rule from when we were at Highbury. So, this isn't something that has just been introduced because of the Emirates project. I'd agree with you if things weren't like this before the move away from Highbury but his philopsphy hasn't changed in recent years. Also, what he's talking about doesn't relate to our financial position. These are his thoughts. He believes that player wages shouldn't always be on the increase especially when a players performance drops when they reach a certain age. As said, he came to Arsenal with theses ideas and it's not born out of circumstance.

What he says makes sense. Why should a player expect a pay increase when his performance on the pitch is likely to drop. But I wish this sort of thinking was applied to some our youth players. Why are they earning so much when they can't even perform at the required standard?
So Wenger saying: "we sold them around the age of 29 and 30. Why? Because we needed the money and for them to not go for free." In PnG mind = "doesn't relate to our financial position. These are his thoughts."

Yep.

[Kano]

what i think wenger is saying is that they could not afford to lose assets for free, not necessarily because the money was needed to just survive. he mentions 'we survived at the top in selling our good players' which i think means that despite selling we've maintained a healthy position in the league, rather than we survived by selling our best players. which makes a lot of sense given our capacity at highbury etc.

what the bigger picture seems to indicate is that in order to continue to grow, we needed to ensure we got a return from valuable players rather than lose them for nothing. the alternative would've meant we'd survive just fine if we got nothing for them but our rate of growth would've slowed down.

[Power n Glory]

So Wenger saying: "we sold them around the age of 29 and 30. Why? Because we needed the money and for them to not go for free." In PnG mind = "doesn't relate to our financial position. These are his thoughts."Yep. So you think we're a club that's really struggling to pay the bills? Do you really think it's that bad and we're desperate for cash? We could have sold Vieira, Henry and Cesc for way more than what we originally sold them for. Why didn't we? Worth reading what Wenger actually said because their are numerous statements from the club saying the opposite of your suggesting and you still ignore it.