Stick a Fork in Wenger...He's Done!!!

[Newguy]

There has never been a more fitting time such as this for a "Stick a Fork.." thread. This has to be the end for Wenger now. He's harmed his legacy anyway, now he has to do the right thing and resign. He cant motivate the team anymore. There was no fight, no passion, no belief, when you add the lack of technique we have throughout the first team there is no where else for him to go, but out the door.

Money is needed to strengthen the team, but even if the board aren't giving Wenger the money, Wenger doesnt like spending money. If he cant at least get the players he does have to play as a unit and get the basics right then where else is there for the manager to go, if not out the door?

It's been bad enough these last few years, why let it get any worse than it already is?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He's been done long before this game tbh

[Özim]

The pr*ck was done years ago, have no respect for this mickey mouse manager, he's borderline insulting to the fans, arrogant beyond belief and totally deluded.

The more he gets it wrong the more stubborn he seems to get, 6 million a year? Really.....he's not worth 10 pounds the way he's performing...a total joke of a manager, the sooner he f*cks off the better off we will be.

[Newguy]

Very true, but he's done so much for the club that you show patience and you see if he can turn things around...obviously he cant and it's time for both parties to accept that it's over.

[Cripps_orig]

He was done in April 2010

Well probably before but thats when i turned on him

[Joker]

Should have left at the end of last season at the very latest. He's a complete fool these days, unable to rally his side or to devise effective tactics to counter the opposition. He's a bog standard manager who wouldn't look out of place in the Championship. The worst thing is his utter disregard for the fans, acting as if we're too unintelligent to understand the need for financial "prudence". I've had it with him, he should leave the club now so we can rebuild again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The pr*ck was done years ago, have no respect for this mickey mouse manager, he's borderline insulting to the fans, arrogant beyond belief and totally deluded.

The more he gets it wrong the more stubborn he seems to get, 6 million a year? Really.....he's not worth 10 pounds the way he's performing...a total joke of a manager, the sooner he f*cks off the better off we will be.

Well no way of knowing that really, things won't magically changed oncehe goes, but freshness is needed and a change won't hurt.

[Arsenal Fan]

we shouldn't sack him, just ask him politely to hand in his resignation

[Cripps_orig]

we shouldn't sack him, just ask him politely to hand in his resignationWhy shouldnt we?

[Özim]

Why shouldnt we?
I don't see a problem with sacking him, when a manager is not up to the job you get rid of him.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't see a problem with sacking him, when a manager is not up to the job you get rid of him.

Nope you invite him to resigin. well that waht happend to one of my old managers.

[Letters]

I don't see a problem with sacking him, when a manager is not up to the job you get rid of him.

If he wasn't doing what the board expected they would have years ago. He has, so they haven't.

[Master Splinter]

Make sure the fork doesn't lack a little bit sharpness.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Should have left at the end of last season at the very latest. He's a complete fool these days, unable to rally his side or to devise effective tactics to counter the opposition. He's a bog standard manager who wouldn't look out of place in the Championship. The worst thing is his utter disregard for the fans, acting as if we're too unintelligent to understand the need for financial "prudence". I've had it with him, he should leave the club now so we can rebuild again.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty unintelligent.

[fakeyank]

Nope you invite him to resigin. well that waht happend to one of my old managers.

At tesco?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

At tesco?

Never worked in Tesco ever

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

get in steve bould.

worked for barca.

will drill the defense and wont be blinkered with stubborness. surely cant be any worse than wenger atm?

[Cripps_orig]

get in steve bould.

worked for barca.

will drill the defense and wont be blinkered with stubborness. surely cant be any worse than wenger atm?Barca got Steve Bould in? ;)

[Ollie the Optimist]

personally i thought wenger was tactically spot on today, good team selection given the pitch. wingers werent effective, so was a good decison to start rosicky. wenger to blame for many loses but not tonight imo, that was the players, who just failed and gave such a poor performance. we had first choice defence there with full backs, good midfield on paper yet the players failed

[fakeyank]

One thing I was glad about was the post match reaction from Arsene. Didnt yap about spirit and usual bullshit. He called it our worst performance in Europe and it truly was. Doesnt mean he saves his job, he still needs a fork up his bum.

[Globalgunner]

This should not even be a cause for debate. A club with any ambition would have dumped this turd 5 years ago. His record of ineptitude is at least 10 years long. From 2000 to 2004 he had a collection of the best players this club has seen and he could only manage 2 leagues and 3 FA cups. with Vieira Henry, Pires et al. Ferguson or Mourinho would have made them a 5 year unstoppable machine. Here we laud him for bringing unprecedented success simply because we never had it before. Sorry but he is now a shambles of a manager, indulged by a rapacious board who seee success only in balance sheets. He is basically incompetent

[Fats]

personally i thought wenger was tactically spot on today, good team selection given the pitch. wingers werent effective, so was a good decison to start rosicky. wenger to blame for many loses but not tonight imo, that was the players, who just failed and gave such a poor performance. we had first choice defence there with full backs, good midfield on paper yet the players failed

I'm completely confused by this statement.

[Marc Overmars]

personally i thought wenger was tactically spot on today, good team selection given the pitch. wingers werent effective, so was a good decison to start rosicky. wenger to blame for many loses but not tonight imo, that was the players, who just failed and gave such a poor performance. we had first choice defence there with full backs, good midfield on paper yet the players failed

This was AC Milan, at the San Siro, in the CL knockouts.

Yet the team turned up and played like it was Wigan at the DW on a Saturday.

It's a sad indictment on Wenger that he can't even get his players up for a game like this. Yes the players should take a lot of responsibility however this is not the first time we've seen such a an inept performance of this standard, last night was no freak result that's for sure, it was yet another cold reminder and reflection on how far everything has fallen at the club.

[selassie]

personally i thought wenger was tactically spot on today, good team selection given the pitch. wingers werent effective, so was a good decison to start rosicky. wenger to blame for many loses but not tonight imo, that was the players, who just failed and gave such a poor performance. we had first choice defence there with full backs, good midfield on paper yet the players failed

Tactically spot on? No we were truly awful yesterday, out fought, out thought and thoroughly out played. Look I accept we aren't Man City but last night pretty much showed us that the options in the team let alone squad just aren't good enough. Arsene built the squad and I pretty much hold him fully responsible for the mess we are currently in.

He's basically built a squad that is not good enough to compete for trophies, simple as that.

[LDG]

This was AC Milan, at the San Siro, in the CL knockouts.

Yet the team turned up and played like it was Wigan at the DW on a Saturday.

It's a sad indictment on Wenger that he can't even get his players up for a game like this. Yes the players should take a lot of responsibility however this is not the first time we've seen such a an inept performance of this standard, last night was no freak result that's for sure, it was yet another cold reminder and reflection on how far everything has fallen at the club.

I kind of agree with Ollie here....probably not so rose-tinted....but it smacked of the Carling Cup Final last year. We just didn't turn up....

It is partly Wengers fault however, as I think the team struggled to know whether to push forward, or sit back, and in the end did niether. Poor preparation yet again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This was AC Milan, at the San Siro, in the CL knockouts. Yet the team turned up and played like it was Wigan at the DW on a Saturday.

It's a sad indictment on Wenger that he can't even get his players up for a game like this. Yes the players should take a lot of responsibility however this is not the first time we've seen such a an inept performance of this standard, last night was no freak result that's for sure, it was yet another cold reminder and reflection on how far everything has fallen at the club.

Exactly and if as a player you can't motivate yourself to play in one of the big stadiums in Europe, then you should walk off yourself tbh, you don't need a manager to motivate you in the CL against Milan.

We can't always blame Wenger all the time, the players need to take the heat, Its not his fault Theo was shite again or Gibbs was not match fit same with Sagna, It did not help TV 5 is being shite, same with Our DM song and our Keeper is woeful atm. We had Arteta, who showed why he has never played in the cl before, not good enough against the big teams.

There is big problems at this club and it needs to be sorted out quick.

[Letters]

Tactically spot on? No we were truly awful yesterday, out fought, out thought and thoroughly out played. Look I accept we aren't Man City but last night pretty much showed us that the options in the team let alone squad just aren't good enough. Arsene built the squad and I pretty much hold him fully responsible for the mess we are currently in.

He's basically built a squad that is not good enough to compete for trophies, simple as that.

None of that means he didn't get his tactics right. It was the players and squad which weren't good enough as you say, not necessarily the tactics he employed.

[selassie]

None of that means he didn't get his tactics right. It was the players and squad which weren't good enough as you say, not necessarily the tactics he employed.

Yeah I see where your coming from but the problem I have is that there didn't seem to be tactics of any sort deployed last night.

It seemed to me as if Arsene just sent them out to play.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Exactly and if as a player you can't motivate yourself to play in one of the big stadiums in Europe, then you should walk off yourself tbh, you don't need a manager to motivate you in the CL against Milan.

We can't always blame Wenger all the time, the players need to take the heat, Its not his fault Theo was shite again or Gibbs was not match fit same with Sagna, It did not help TV 5 is being shite, same with Our DM song and our Keeper is woeful atm. We had Arteta, who showed why he has never played in the cl before, not good enough against the big teams.

There is big problems at this club and it needs to be sorted out quick.
Well actually, it kind of is still wengers fault.

Theo playing shite again is the result of wenger giving him a free pass and playing him every week regardless of form.
Gibbs and Sagna not being match fit is his fault because he picked them knowing this was the case and didnt buy anyone to fill in when they were out.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Yeah I see where your coming from but the problem I have is that there didn't seem to be tactics of any sort deployed last night.

It seemed to me as if Arsene just sent them out to play.Exactly that, what were the tactics being used?

What exactly was the gameplan?

[Xhaka Can’t]

This was AC Milan, at the San Siro, in the CL knockouts.

Yet the team turned up and played like it was Wigan at the DW on a Saturday.

It's a sad indictment on Wenger that he can't even get his players up for a game like this. Yes the players should take a lot of responsibility however this is not the first time we've seen such a an inept performance of this standard, last night was no freak result that's for sure, it was yet another cold reminder and reflection on how far everything has fallen at the club.

Serious Mo scares me.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Tactically spot on? No we were truly awful yesterday, out fought, out thought and thoroughly out played. Look I accept we aren't Man City but last night pretty much showed us that the options in the team let alone squad just aren't good enough. Arsene built the squad and I pretty much hold him fully responsible for the mess we are currently in.

He's basically built a squad that is not good enough to compete for trophies, simple as that.

i thought with the starting xI when i saw it, it was right. full defence, an attacking mid who supposdly can help calm things down and play thorugh the middle, looking at the wings, i thought nothing would happen, i was right, even the ox couldnt do anything. more experience in rosicky to help gibbs, dont blame wenger for the starting 11, i thought it was right and set up right. what then happened was the players choked, i blame them last night not wenger, thought he made the right decisions. however, i do blame wenger, for taking off the ox against united etc. not last night, that was players

[LDG]

Exactly that, what were the tactics being used?

What exactly was the gameplan?

http://img.skysports.com/11/08/218x298/Wenger1_2640715.jpg

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

perhaps the most sadning indictment was wenger not even getting up off his arse. just sat in the dugout, and for the first time, admitted complete defeat.

even worse was pat rice shouting at theo in the 1st half to track back. theo's reaction? didn't blink an eye.

proof we need a change of management. players aren't responding.

wenger out.

[Letters]

perhaps the most sadning indictment was wenger not even getting up off his arse. just sat in the dugout, and for the first time, admitted complete defeat.

even worse was pat rice shouting at theo in the 1st half to track back. theo's reaction? didn't blink an eye.

proof we need a change of management. players aren't responding.

wenger out.

This is a weird season. Early season I'd have agreed with you but then we went through that good run and they really looked like they were playing for each other and for Wenger. Now...I don't know any more. The squad isn't good enough, that much is clear. Whether they're playing for Wenger...dunno. The next couple of weeks will be interesting :upset:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

and before people say 'who do we get in' there's plenty of managers.

rijkaard, koeman/van basten+bergkamp as assistance coach, klinsmann. theyre all there.

but my first choice would be steve bould.

appointing internally worked for barca with pep, steve knows the club inside out and will drill that fucking defense until they understand what defending is.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

and before people say 'who do we get in' there's plenty of managers.

rijkaard, koeman/van basten+bergkamp as assistance coach, klinsmann. theyre all there.

but my first choice would be steve bould.

appointing internally worked for barca with pep, steve knows the club inside out and will drill that fucking defense until they understand what defending is.

What makes you sure any of these want to come to this club seeing how we are. maybe the board have started looking and have had no luck.

[Coney]

Exactly that, what were the tactics being used?

What exactly was the gameplan?

Since the board won't pay for the players he wants, Wenger has decided to take the piss until they cough up or sack him.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This is a weird season. Early season I'd have agreed with you but then we went through that good run and they really looked like they were playing for each other and for Wenger. Now...I don't know any more. The squad isn't good enough, that much is clear. Whether they're playing for Wenger...dunno. The next couple of weeks will be interesting :upset:

The squad is poor and has been since the summer, Half are kack and the other half can't be arsed.

[Marc Overmars]

This is a weird season. Early season I'd have agreed with you but then we went through that good run and they really looked like they were playing for each other and for Wenger. Now...I don't know any more. The squad isn't good enough, that much is clear. Whether they're playing for Wenger...dunno. The next couple of weeks will be interesting :upset:

They can't be playing for Wenger.

People are right when they say the players shouldn't need motivating for a game like that, however they clearly did need a kick up the arse. I'm sure Wenger did everything he could to prepare them but to turn up as they did for a game of that calibre suggests the manager and the team are on a totally different wavelength.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

What makes you sure any of these want to come to this club seeing how we are. maybe the board have started looking and have had no luck.

berkgamp would. klinsmann's in USA and a contract offer could tempt him. rijkaard's managing in saudi arabia so he'd come from that shithole. koeman's managing feneyoord, arsenal would be very tempting.

on top of that jurgen klopp who's always stated his desire for us. and he loves the youth policy but actually gets his team winning trophies.

there are managers out there.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Since the board won't pay for the players he wants, Wenger has decided to take the piss until they cough up or sack him.

Would not suprise me if this were true tbh, I can see the board not wanting to sack wenger means they have to pay him off, and him maybe staying till he gets paid off or not wanting to loose that money.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

and may i add what we need is a manager who surrounds the youth with experienced backroom staff, whom better than their idols aka invincibles.

harry got in half the spurs legends at spurs and now look at them. mancini got in a few legends back at city's backroom staff, look at them.

get keown, adams, parlour, seaman, bergkamp in. all have stated they wanna help out ffs.

a new manager could do that.

wenger out.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

and may i add what we need is a manager who surrounds the youth with experienced backroom staff, whom better than their idols aka invincibles.harry got in half the spurs legends at spurs and now look at them. mancini got in a few legends back at city's backroom staff, look at them.

get keown, adams, parlour, seaman, bergkamp in. all have stated they wanna help out ffs.

a new manager could do that.

wenger out.

should get them in as coaches tbh, imagine having Berkamp as Striker coash etc, the impact would be massive to players and fans alike.

[Coney]

The squad is poor and has been since the summer, Half are kack and the other half can't be arsed.

I think there is a general lethargy which is catching. New players are good for a few weeks then the general mood drains them. There are two solutions. Either a kick-ass new manager who takes advantage of the 'new manager' syndrome, gets them performing and winning games, or the same manager but a serious and mega clearout of the squad - I mean a number of players all out at once. I'm thinking Rosicky, Diaby, Arshavin, Djourou, Walcott as a starter. Get in some people who can shoot and/or have some drive and experience. We need a run of games were we not only win, but players other than RvP get their shooting boots on and contribute some goals. At the moment, the confidence of the squad is shot. It is not a skill issue or anything like that - it is an inability to play because they don't trust themselves or each other.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

should get them in as coaches tbh, imagine having Berkamp as Striker coash etc, the impact would be massive to players and fans alike.

yes thats what i mean backroom staff/coaches.

someone who they fucking listen to.

[LDG]

Wenger:

Pro's:
Able to manage a side on a small budget
Spots talent
Able to bring youth through (see Fab, Jack, etc)
Makes the club money
Reinvented the whole club

Con's:
Stubborn
Tactically niave
Unable to motivate
Doesn't show respect to the opposition
Has too much power

And inbetween:
Can't/Won't spend


I'm at a loss as to what would happen if he went. I'm at a loss as to what would happen if he stays.

There seems no easy way out of all of this mess.

And the most frustrating thing of all?????

He has the ability to manage Arsenal, and win stuff for us again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think there is a general lethargy which is catching. New players are good for a few weeks then the general mood drains them. There are two solutions. Either a kick-ass new manager who takes advantage of the 'new manager' syndrome, gets them performing and winning games, or the same manager but a serious and mega clearout of the squad - I mean a number of players all out at once. I'm thinking Rosicky, Diaby, Arshavin, Djourou, Walcott as a starter. Get in some people who can shoot and/or have some drive and experience. We need a run of games were we not only win, but players other than RvP get their shooting boots on and contribute some goals. At the moment, the confidence of the squad is shot. It is not a skill issue or anything like that - it is an inability to play because they don't trust themselves or each other.

Has been like this since the CC final tbh and we have not snapped out of it. Beating Chelsea as good as it was this season, shows it was nothing more then papaering over the cracks tbh.

I agree about new players coming in looking good for a few weeks then the mood draining them. we have seen it with maroune last season and Gevinho this season.

Players are not happy because all they keep seeing is dissapointment. IMO wenger needs to go will it change a whole lof of things ? no but its a start to rebuilding well i say that we have been rebuilding for the last 4 seasons since hleb and flamini left tbh, had we tweaked that team we'd have been better off.

[Coney]

Has been like this since the CC final

Yes. It might be the smallest trophy but it would have given a winning feeling - who knows what the effect on the rest of the season would have been. Oh - and it wasn't all down to Szczesny/Kos as some said at the time. That was one mistake. Given it was Birmingham, why were we not already 2 or 3 goals up by that time? Again, no-one bar RvP up for or able to shoot straight. Same old. Same old. I get angry that from about 2006, we have had the ability to get the ball to the other side's 18 yard box and had no-one who could do anything with it. I'm not looking for fancy tippy-tappy talent. I want one of any number of cheapish players who could do the job over that period - couple of years back, for instance, even someone like Mark Viduka - so maybe he is not Messi, but give him the ball in the box and he would do something with it rather than ponce about like the tippy tappy shit we have at the moment.

[selassie]

Wenger:

Pro's:
Able to manage a side on a small budget
Spots talent
Able to bring youth through (see Fab, Jack, etc)
Makes the club money
Reinvented the whole club

Con's:
Stubborn
Tactically niave
Unable to motivate
Doesn't show respect to the opposition
Has too much power

And inbetween:
Can't/Won't spend


I'm at a loss as to what would happen if he went. I'm at a loss as to what would happen if he stays.

There seems no easy way out of all of this mess.

And the most frustrating thing of all?????

He has the ability to manage Arsenal, and win stuff for us again.

Nice list of Pro's & Con's there LDG. I personally think Arsene is only here on sentiment, he would be gone at any other Top 4 club. If we're judging Arsene on a results only basis then there are a number of Managers out there who are more advanced than him now, he's basically a shell of the man we saw in charge of the invincibles.

I personally think and have done for a couple of seasons now that we need a fresh start, a new manager with fresh ideas. Arsene is finished, I don't trust him and don't think he's anywhere near capable of delivering any kind of success, he couldn't even deliver the Carling Cup last season against a struggling side who are now in the Championship.

I respect Arsene for his past achievements but want him moved on now, don't rate him, don't want him here.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Wenger:

Pro's:
Able to manage a side on a small budget
Spots talent
Able to bring youth through (see Fab, Jack, etc)
Makes the club money
Reinvented the whole club

Con's:
Stubborn
Tactically niave
Unable to motivate
Doesn't show respect to the opposition
Has too much power

And inbetween:
Can't/Won't spend


Con: Your face.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Con: Your face.

Your face is a con.

[GP]

:lol:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

It really hurts to read some of the comments on here and it may be that some see things differently (more clearly)

But I really dont see Wenger staying on past this season, the club needs to move in a different direction and even though it may take a while to get there, it is becoming more and more obvious that Wenger may not have the gas to get us there.

I agree with some of LDG says but do not believe Wenger can continue in the same vein, if this is the extent of his influence then there isnt much to look forward to because we are drowning, at best at times barely treading water.

I hate to use Spuds as an example but look at what they did in January, strengthen an already potent attack with Saha (a guy who still has goals in him) - what did we do?

Dont get me wrong. . .it was great to see TH14(12) back but we decided to help out relieve our over-reliant one man attack with a few week sentiment laced loanee. What ambition did that show? What intent, futute statement did that send out? I can tell you. . .none

How can anyone give us any hope. . .we talk about the dick headness of football pundits and their supoaed bias against us. . .but can we blame them, when we keep refusing to dress our festering wounds or ryrn up to games with our pants diwn round our abkles just begging to be shafted. . .

I have said before that there is more than one group to blame for this mess. . , not only Wenger but he has to take responsibility. . .I will be very sad to see the end when it does come though, as a true Arsenal fan that can only be expected

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes. It might be the smallest trophy but it would have given a winning feeling - who knows what the effect on the rest of the season would have been. Oh - and it wasn't all down to Szczesny/Kos as some said at the time. That was one mistake. Given it was Birmingham, why were we not already 2 or 3 goals up by that time? Again, no-one bar RvP up for or able to shoot straight. Same old. Same old. I get angry that from about 2006, we have had the ability to get the ball to the other side's 18 yard box and had no-one who could do anything with it. I'm not looking for fancy tippy-tappy talent. I want one of any number of cheapish players who could do the job over that period - couple of years back, for instance, even someone like Mark Viduka - so maybe he is not Messi, but give him the ball in the box and he would do something with it rather than ponce about like the tippy tappy shit we have at the moment.

Yep even with the team we had we should have been able to beat them end off, Other than the fa cup, we always seem to choke in finals, done it in the CC twice, the Cl onve heck even in the Uefa cup to the turks.

I knew wenger not buying last jan would come back to haunt us big style. Had he bought then for sure we'd have gone on to win something.

[Letters]

Yes. It might be the smallest trophy but it would have given a winning feeling - who knows what the effect on the rest of the season would have been. Oh - and it wasn't all down to Szczesny/Kos as some said at the time. That was one mistake. Given it was Birmingham, why were we not already 2 or 3 goals up by that time? Again, no-one bar RvP up for or able to shoot straight. Same old. Same old. I get angry that from about 2006, we have had the ability to get the ball to the other side's 18 yard box and had no-one who could do anything with it. I'm not looking for fancy tippy-tappy talent. I want one of any number of cheapish players who could do the job over that period - couple of years back, for instance, even someone like Mark Viduka - so maybe he is not Messi, but give him the ball in the box and he would do something with it rather than ponce about like the tippy tappy shit we have at the moment.

Scoring goals (till this season) has not really been a problem. It's been a bigger a problem stopping them going in at t'other end. The last few years our goal-scoring has compared favourably to most teams. The below is a count of league goals and some comments about how we did compared to other teams:

2011 - 72 (2nd only to Utd, the Champions)
2010 - 83 (3rd best, Utd got 86 and Chelsea, the champions, went nuts and got 103)
2009 - 68 (2nd only to Liverpool who got 77. Chelsea and Utd, the champions, scored the same)
2008 - 74 (2nd only to Utd, the Champions)

For comparison, the Invincibles scored 73 league goals. They only conceded 26 though. Last year we scored 72, pretty much the same as 2004, but conceded 43

[Kano]

not sure those stats mean much at all.

in 00/01 we let in 38. 01/02, 36 and the year before the Invincibles 42.

[Letters]

They mean that our goal-scoring has not been a problem, it has been comparable with the top sides every year - only once when Chelsea went nuts did anyone score significantly more than us. The clear problem has been defence when we've consistently conceded significantly more than the other teams at the top.
I thought Coney was saying that scoring goals has been an issue for years. It hasn't. It is this year though when we've been far too reliant on RvP.
But that's what happens when you keep selling your quality attacking players and replace them with fairly mediocre ones.

[Newguy]

I dont understand why Wenger doesnt call on the likes of Keown and Dixon to sort this defence out, especially keown. The fact that he doesnt and would rather stick with the likes of Pat Rice just cements my stance that he needs to go. He cant see the wood for the trees.

[Kano]

They mean that our goal-scoring has not been a problem, it has been comparable with the top sides every year - only once when Chelsea went nuts did anyone score significantly more than us. The clear problem has been defence when we've consistently conceded significantly more than the other teams at the top.
I thought Coney was saying that scoring goals has been an issue for years. It hasn't. It is this year though when we've been far too reliant on RvP.
But that's what happens when you keep selling your quality attacking players and replace them with fairly mediocre ones.
the wider point i’m making is that we’ve always had a healthy for column and a dodgy against. the difference is not in the surface stat but the detail underneath; where and when these goals are scored have made our previous teams win trophies whilst maintaining a similar stat rate to the current lot.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I dont understand why Wenger doesnt call on the likes of Keown and Dixon to sort this defence out, especially keown. The fact that he doesnt and would rather stick with the likes of Pat Rice just cements my stance that he needs to go. He cant see the wood for the trees.

Depends on how much they would cost to get in, You can't compare them to rice none of them are Assistant managers. Do think a new no 2 is needed tbh, like people have said time for bold to step up tbh. He knows the club, loves the club and will make sure palyers work their asses off.

[Marc Overmars]

the wider point i’m making is that we’ve always had a healthy for column and a dodgy against. the difference is not in the surface stat but the detail underneath; where and when these goals are scored have made our previous teams win trophies whilst maintaining a similar stat rate to the current lot.

Spot on.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

the wider point i’m making is that we’ve always had a healthy for column and a dodgy against. the difference is not in the surface stat but the detail underneath; where and when these goals are scored have made our previous teams win trophies whilst maintaining a similar stat rate to the current lot.

This is why a Striker has been needed for the past 3 seasons and nout was done about it.

[Master Splinter]

Putting chances away has always been our biggest problem, along with injuries.

Clinical strikers and clinical wide men have been needed for a while.

[Kano]

This is why a Striker has been needed for the past 3 seasons and nout was done about it.
we've had a good selection of strikers up until this season but the team as a whole were and still are not ruthless enough when required.

whether it be from midfield or the guys up top, converting those draws or narrow defeats into more points makes a huge difference of course.

[Coney]

Scoring goals (till this season) has not really been a problem. It's been a bigger a problem stopping them going in at t'other end. The last few years our goal-scoring has compared favourably to most teams. The below is a count of league goals and some comments about how we did compared to other teams:

2011 - 72 (2nd only to Utd, the Champions)
2010 - 83 (3rd best, Utd got 86 and Chelsea, the champions, went nuts and got 103)
2009 - 68 (2nd only to Liverpool who got 77. Chelsea and Utd, the champions, scored the same)
2008 - 74 (2nd only to Utd, the Champions)

For comparison, the Invincibles scored 73 league goals. They only conceded 26 though. Last year we scored 72, pretty much the same as 2004, but conceded 43

Stop spoiling things with facts. :banghead:

The reason for the scoring thing is that I see us spending large amounts of time attacking the opponents and you think we'd have scored a hatful but actually end up with maybe one goal, and then the buggers pull one back at the last minute and we look like a bunch of lemons. We took blackburn to the cleaners the other day, still got only 3 points to show for it (well, OK, this week it meant chavs were pushed into 5th - had that been the end of the season I'd have laughed my nuts off). But I'd ratherwe'd won by 2 goals and seen the others distributed among the games against 'lower' opposition where we lost by the one goal or came away with a draw. Goals scored overall is not the issue, it's getting them against teams that park the bus, and for that we need strikers that can do the bizz. I don't care if our defence leaks like a sieve as long as we put more in at the other end.

I guess that might be a bit anectotal rather than the result of 10 weeks analysis of all the balls kicked in the last 5 years, but looking at yesterday and other games where we seem to have fucked up, it does not so much feel that the odd goal we let in was the issue, just people like Walcott, Rosicky, et al putting the ball wide or into the stands because they don't have the confidence a striker/AM should have an just let rip nice and easily like on the training ground. As they get close the seem to tighten up and lose what skill they have.

The important overriding fact, though, is that we seem unable to get in the players we need to make the difference between another 'almost' campaign stuttering and wheezing to the end of the season when we can surely afford better. And the financial investment would likely bring a good financial return in more CL money, more PL money, shirt sales, etc. - not to mention making us happy.

*****. :(

[Marc Overmars]

If we don't score early in a game, you know we will struggle to win the match.

We're not clinical and never have been, despite what the goals for column says.

We scored 0 at Bolton despite enjoying most of the chances, yet 3 days later we hit Blackburn for 7. Hit and miss as usual.

It's frustrating because being able to finish isn't a world class trait. You just need an element of composure. Graham, Holt etc... All pub teamers but they do a job for their team because they're not erratic.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If we don't score early in a game, you know we will struggle to win the match.

We're not clinical and never have been, despite what the goals for column says.

We scored 0 at Bolton despite enjoying most of the chances, yet 3 days later we hit Blackburn for 7. Hit and miss as usual.

It's frustrating because being able to finish isn't a world class trait. You just need an element of composure. Graham, Holt etc... All pub teamers but they do a job for their team because they're not erratic.

We've been like that for about 4 years,well since whenever aw started that "we lacked sharpness" Nonsense.

[Ernesto]

Wenger should leave, but not just because of yesterday's game. I didn't actually think yesterday was his fault. It seemed like the players out there got the very basics wrong. Not harrying, not chasing down the ball, not winning any headers first. I'm not entirely sure whether AC Milan have players with excellent ball control who keep posession, but yesterday it just seemed like whenever we lost the ball, we weren't going to get it back for a good 10 minutes.

A good team would've learnt their mistakes at half-time, come out in the second half and, at the very least, stuck to damage limitation. There was none of that. There was no change in shape, formation or personnel (apart from Henry) so it seems that Wenger would most probably have instructed the players to keep a tight ship. There was nothing of the sort.

It's sad, it's depressing, it's-to put it like Wenger- shocking. AC Milan were due a big result against an English side, and we were just there to take the bullet. They won't be so confident, so cocky in the second leg and we could possibly get a result. We'll win it, but I'm guessing a 3-1. We're not Chelsea or Manchester United when it comes to games like this. The valiant losers, that's us. Losing with our heads held high. It makes me sick.

I've gone way off topic here, but Wenger out, yes, because of yesterday's result alone, no.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger should leave, but not just because of yesterday's game. I didn't actually think yesterday was his fault. It seemed like the players out there got the very basics wrong. Not harrying, not chasing down the ball, not winning any headers first. I'm not entirely sure whether AC Milan have players with excellent ball control who keep posession, but yesterday it just seemed like whenever we lost the ball, we weren't going to get it back for a good 10 minutes.

A good team would've learnt their mistakes at half-time, come out in the second half and, at the very least, stuck to damage limitation. There was none of that. There was no change in shape, formation or personnel (apart from Henry) so it seems that Wenger would most probably have instructed the players to keep a tight ship. There was nothing of the sort.

It's sad, it's depressing, it's-to put it like Wenger- shocking. AC Milan were due a big result against an English side, and we were just there to take the bullet. They won't be so confident, so cocky in the second leg and we could possibly get a result. We'll win it, but I'm guessing a 3-1. We're not Chelsea or Manchester United when it comes to games like this. The valiant losers, that's us. Losing with our heads held high. It makes me sick.

I've gone way off topic here, but Wenger out, yes, because of yesterday's result alone, no.


Top Post fella

[Xhaka Can’t]

The stats presented by Letters while factually correct, are misleading. Last season is a case in point. Early in the campaign we were getting a shedload of goals from midfield. A poster (may have been LDG) expressed concern about this because the midfield scoring rate was unsustainable and we did not have the necessary firepower up front.

Those midfield goals duly dried up and the second half of the season was punctuated by bore draws at home to the likes of Sunderland and losses on our travels with the od glut of plus 1s in other games.

We have had a goal scoring problem for some time and certainly far longer than the bare facts suggest. That is not having a go at anyone, it is how I see it based on the stats and my experience.

[Fats]

i thought with the starting xI when i saw it, it was right. full defence, an attacking mid who supposdly can help calm things down and play thorugh the middle, looking at the wings, i thought nothing would happen, i was right, even the ox couldnt do anything. more experience in rosicky to help gibbs, dont blame wenger for the starting 11, i thought it was right and set up right. what then happened was the players choked, i blame them last night not wenger, thought he made the right decisions. however, i do blame wenger, for taking off the ox against united etc. not last night, that was players

Again I'm confused

[Coney]

Again I'm confused

No - he is confused. :good:

[Cripps_orig]

Again I'm confusedJust remember who you're talking to

[Fats]

Come on guys, we all have different points of view and Ollie obviously has his and I think we should respect that regardless of others thinking differently.

Im intrigued as to his thoughts to why he thinks Wenger is still the man to take us forward.

[Cripps_orig]

Come on guys, we all have different points of view and Ollie obviously has his and I think we should respect that regardless of others thinking differently.

Im intrigued as to his thoughts to why he thinks Wenger is still the man to take us forward.I tried that with Ollie.

God knows i tried but fair enough if you want to have a go.

Should be good to see Ollies explanation of why he wants Wenger to stay

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I tried that with Ollie.

God knows i tried but fair enough if you want to have a go.

Should be good to see Ollies explanation of why he wants Wenger to stay

Why should he have to explain why he wants him to stay?

[Fats]

Charlie, you understand the point of a debate forum right?

[Marc Overmars]

Why should he have to explain why he wants him to stay?

To go with the debate about why people want him to go?

Charlie. :rolleyes:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why is the same discussion appearing on two threads?

http://content8.flixster.com/photo/14/00/56/14005618_gal.jpg

Move along.

[Cripps_orig]

Why should he have to explain why he wants him to stay?:blink:

You are one weird guy

[Coney]

Come on guys, we all have different points of view and Ollie obviously has his and I think we should respect that regardless of others thinking differently.

Im intrigued as to his thoughts to why he thinks Wenger is still the man to take us forward.

We are entitled to a different point of view and can think that you should not be intrigued, nor that we should respect others thinking differently.

[Coney]

Why is the same discussion appearing on two threads?

It's groundhog day.

[Newguy]

Spot on.

No by all means, get Bould in as no.2. But what I'm saying is Pat takes an active role in the training pre match and either is totally behind the manager and his tactics, feels things need changing but has no ideas or is too scared to say anything either way i think he should have trusted his instincts and retired at the end of last season.

Surely Keown can be brought in to assist and I just dont see how money has anything to do with it. They can help, I doubt they dont want to help, so why not get it done. Keown's helped in the past and we had that CL run without conceding for how many games.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:blink:

You are one weird guy


Charlie, you understand the point of a debate forum right?


To go with the debate about why people want him to go?

Charlie. :rolleyes:

Yes i understand its a debate forum, But should he have to explain, it would be nice if he did, but i don't think he has too if he did not want too. Just felt like people were saying he had too.

[Dennis Bendtner]

He will be killed if he doesn't.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He will be killed if he doesn't.

DB for Mod!

[Coney]

He will be killed if he doesn't.

Pics or GTFO.

[Letters]

The stats presented by Letters while factually correct, are misleading. Last season is a case in point. Early in the campaign we were getting a shedload of goals from midfield. A poster (may have been LDG) expressed concern about this because the midfield scoring rate was unsustainable and we did not have the necessary firepower up front.

Those midfield goals duly dried up and the second half of the season was punctuated by bore draws at home to the likes of Sunderland and losses on our travels with the od glut of plus 1s in other games.

We have had a goal scoring problem for some time and certainly far longer than the bare facts suggest. That is not having a go at anyone, it is how I see it based on the stats and my experience.

In our last 11 games last year which was the real collapse (W2 D6 L3) we scored 16 league goals.
There wasn't a glut of goals from us in any game, we only failed to score in 2 games. The problem is we conceded 16 in that time and only kept 3 clean sheets.

For comparison, Utd scored 17 goals in their last 11 games (W6 D2 L3), they conceded 12 goals and kept 4 clean sheet.

There were far too many games last year where we scored enough to get a good result but failed to get one
(2 at home to West Brom, 2 at home to Spurs, 2 away to Wigan, 4 away at Newcastle, 2 away at West Brom, 3 away at Spurs, 2 away at Fulham - we didn't win any of those games). IMO that was a far bigger problem. Overall we only failed to score in 6 league games last year, only one more than Utd.

I do think Coney has a point when he says we've struggled to score against teams who park the bus and we have certainly had spells over the last few seasons where we've thumped teams but not scored enough. Overall though the rate of conceding goals has, IMO, been a much bigger problem than the rate of scoring them. Happily this season we're crap at scoring (one player excepted) and defending so: :ilt:

[Coney]

In our last 11 games last year which was the real collapse (W2 D6 L3) we scored 16 league goals.
There wasn't a glut of goals from us in any game, we only failed to score in 2 games. The problem is we conceded 16 in that time and only kept 3 clean sheets.

For comparison, Utd scored 17 goals in their last 11 games (W6 D2 L3), they conceded 12 goals and kept 4 clean sheet.

There were far too many games last year where we scored enough to get a good result but failed to get one
(2 at home to West Brom, 2 at home to Spurs, 2 away to Wigan, 4 away at Newcastle, 2 away at West Brom, 3 away at Spurs, 2 away at Fulham - we didn't win any of those games). IMO that was a far bigger problem. Overall we only failed to score in 6 league games last year, only one more than Utd.

I do think Coney has a point when he says we've struggled to score against teams who park the bus and we have certainly had spells over the last few seasons where we've thumped teams but not scored enough. Overall though the rate of conceding goals has, IMO, been a much bigger problem than the rate of scoring them. Happily this season we're crap at scoring (one player excepted) and defending so: :ilt:

Still, we are better than Chavs. Oh - and it's because we scored more goals to cover the ones we let in. :good:

[Xhaka Can’t]

We were scoreless against Blackburn and Sunderland at home - in 5 of the other games we got one goal despite having by far the lions share of possession in most of those matches. And most of those goal were coming from Van Persie - which is a situation that spilled over to this season.

The goals from elsewhere dried up - almost totally - the result being where we are now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Still, we are better than Chavs. Oh - and it's because we scored more goals to cover the ones we let in. :good:

And those goals are predominantly coming from one player. Can you honestly think of one other player you feel confident in to score for us?

[Coney]

And those goals are predominantly coming from one player. Can you honestly think of one other player you feel confident in to score for us?

Song's scoring well. Just at the wrong end. Maybe we should put him up with RvP in a 4-4-2.

[Letters]

But in 3 of the games we scored enough to win but didn't because we conceded too many. Notably 3 at Spurs. 3 away at Spurs, who finished 5th remember, is a pretty good return. And we were 3-1 up. But we didn't win.
:shrug:

I agree it's a massive problem now, I just didn't see it as such a big problem last year. I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was clear enough when Cesc and Nasri went we'd need more in midfield and we didn't get it.

[Coney]

And those goals are predominantly coming from one player. Can you honestly think of one other player you feel confident in to score for us?

Sensible answer: No, which is why I had said I thought it essential for Wenger to buy a proven goalscorer in January.

[Xhaka Can’t]

But in 3 of the games we scored enough to win but didn't because we conceded too many. Notably 3 at Spurs. 3 away at Spurs, who finished 5th remember, is a pretty good return. And we were 3-1 up. But we didn't win.
:shrug:

I agree it's a massive problem now, I just didn't see it as such a big problem last year. I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was clear enough when Cesc and Nasri went we'd need more in midfield and we didn't get it.

I thought it was back then - and that was the perception I had while witnessing it. I honestly believe you are genuine in your perception of it as well and have arrived at a different view. But even before it hit my radar, someone was alerting us to the potential pitfalls of our weakness up front while everything was coming from our midfield. I clearly remember the point being made and I vaguely recall LDG making it.

[Coney]

I thought it was back then - and that was the perception I had while witnessing it. I honestly believe you are genuine in your perception of it as well and have arrived at a different view. But even before it hit my radar, someone was alerting us to the potential pitfalls of our weakness up front while everything was coming from our midfield. I clearly remember the point being made and I vaguely recall LDG making it.

No - it was me. Unless LDG had also made the point in post number 45. :good:

[Letters]

I thought it was back then - and that was the perception I had while witnessing it. I honestly believe you are genuine in your perception of it as well and have arrived at a different view. But even before it hit my radar, someone was alerting us to the potential pitfalls of our weakness up front while everything was coming from our midfield. I clearly remember the point being made and I vaguely recall LDG making it.

Fair enough, we obviously saw things differently. I think we can mostly agree though that if it was 2-1 late in a game we were pretty much unanimous in thinking "we're going to fuck this up", which suggests a collective nervousness about our defence. Strangely I've felt a bit more confident about them in that regard this year, the issue now is mostly "will we score today if RvP has an off day". The amazing thing about him this year is I've seen him have off days and still score a winner for us.

[Xhaka Can’t]

That is what quality strikers do - and he is top quality.

Reminds me of saying of Henry once, he did fuck all except score that hattrick!

[Master Splinter]

MO is right.

We should sign Holt.