Should Wenger go?

[GP]

Seems that for the first time the majority want him out.

So, simple question, Yes or No?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, after yesterday he should have at least handed in his resignation, whether the board accept it is a diffrent issue.

[alexander]

yes. I have had enough of him.

[Ollie the Optimist]

no

[Marc Overmars]

Yes. A part of me thinks he will resign at the end of the season.

[GP]

no

Why haven't you voted no then? you fanny.

[Joker]

Yes, he's finished and completely devoid of ideas.

[alexander]

not looking good for the old fella is it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

not looking good for the old fella is it.

Because folk on the internet say he should go?

[GP]

Because folk on the internet say he should go?

Folk on the internet are never wrong.

[Marc Overmars]

I genuinely don't see a defence for him anymore.

I know the board need to shoulder some blame in terms of potenially holding back funds, but it is not them who drill a group of players who at times don't even resemble a professional football team.

[Flavs]

yep 3 years too late. For the second time this season and the 3rd time ever i actually expectorant to turn the news on this morning and find out he had been sacked/had resigned

[alexander]

Because folk on the internet say he should go?

no, because the team are fucking shit and have no passion. Thats why.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I really am saddened by what is happening to him and think we passed the point of no return about two years ago. I will always appreciate the breath-taking football he brought to Highbury. I remember at the time thinking we were witnessing the golden age of Arsenal. The football was insanely exciting and he raised expectations to a level that was unsustainable given the strategy he and/or the Board embarked on to facilitate the move to Ashburton Grove.

We were promised that the move would enable Arsenal to grow and compete with the best. The environment changed with the advent of the sugar daddy. Ferguson adapted, but Wenger did not. The Club consequently operated a strategy completely at odds with what was promised to the fans. I accept that we could not buy the best, but for years now, we haven't come close to buying/developing a team that makes effective use of the resources that are available to us.

The approach is utterly bizarre - that might just be Wenger, it might just be the Board, but I think it is both. We are now a fallen giant and will remain so for as long as Wenger is in charge. It may still remain the case with his successor, but we have to take the jump.

I'm gutted for Wenger - anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see how much he wants to do better, but he is now being ridiculed by some - including those who rejoiced the loudest in his proudest moments. And he deserves so much better than that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

no, because the team are fucking shit and have no passion. Thats why.

My point was just because people on here say he should go (and he should) don't mean it will influence the board to get rid or for him to go himself.

[GP]

My point was just because people on here say he should go (and he should) don't mean it will influence the board to get rid or for him to go himself.

Welll, obviously not. I only created this poll to see how far the tide had turned against him. It looks pretty grim.

[GP]

I really am saddened by what is happening to him and think we passed the point of no return about two years ago. I will always appreciate the breath-taking football he brought to Highbury. I remember at the time thinking we were witnessing the golden age of Arsenal. The football was insanely exciting and he raised expectations to a level that was unsustainable given the strategy he and/or the Board embarked on to facilitate the move to Ashburton Grove.

We were promised that the move would enable Arsenal to grow and compete with the best. The environment changed with the advent of the sugar daddy. Ferguson adapted, but Wenger did not. The Club consequently operated a strategy completely at odds with what was promised to the fans. I accept that we could not buy the best, but for years now, we haven't come close to buying/developing a team that makes effective use of the resources that are available to us.

The approach is utterly bizarre - that might just be Wenger, it might just be the Board, but I think it is both. We are now a fallen giant and will remain so for as long as Wenger is in charge. It may still remain the case with his successor, but we have to take the jump.

I'm gutted for Wenger - anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see how much he wants to do better, but he is now being ridiculed by some - including those who rejoiced the loudest in his proudest moments. And he deserves so much better than that.

Good post.

I could never disrespect the man. He took us places we never would have gone without him.

[alexander]

My point was just because people on here say he should go (and he should) don't mean it will influence the board to get rid or for him to go himself.

Well why post here then? it wont make any difference no, but its a place to discuss/vent

[alexander]

Good post.

I could never disrespect the man. He took us places we never would have gone without him.

This is true, cant take that away, but he is ruining all the good work he done for us.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Welll, obviously not. I only created this poll to see how far the tide had turned against him. It looks pretty grim.

Don't think you needed to, to see the tide has turned its been obvious for months now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Good post.

I could never disrespect the man. He took us places we never would have gone without him.

I have the utmost respect for him, his integrity and achievements but his time has passed.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Don't think you needed to, to see the tide has turned its been obvious for months now.

If you think it is irrelevant, you can always not post and leave the thread to those who want to participate.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If you think it is irrelevant, you can always not post and leave the thread to those who want to participate.

Never meant it to sound like this Thread was irrelvant at all, id never hace posted in it at all. all i meant was that it been obvious the tide has turned for months.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can remember the time when I actually thought it was time for Wenger to go, it was the 2-0 defeat to Braga that followed our 3-2 capitulation at home to Spurs. I just thought this man is taking us down a blind alley I gave him a reprieve in my own mind with positive results that followed like the 4-2 win over Villa, 3-1 win over chelsea etc but the games like drawing from 4 nil up at Newcastle being held to a draw at Orient etc....and I argued with my brother who said Wenger had proved him wrong and as much as I hated it I was right when I told him the season would peeter out to disappointment (though even i was surprised at the level of our collapse, losing a carling cup final that was seemingly in the bag and winning only three games after that till the end of the season)
The little run we went on through the autumn into xmas only served to mask our deficiencies and the drop in results was inevitable, and with wenger it would have been inevitable no matter who we had playing as in 07/08 we contrived to win two games in thirteen between february and april with arguably one of the best squads in the league only seeing it return when we were confident we had pissed away our chance of silverware (can't play under pressure)
Having to admit to Spurs fans in my office that they have a better team than ours is too stomach churning to bear, I know it's not all Wenger responsible for our current malaise but he's as good as any place to start.

[Cripps_orig]

Yes

How he went from who he was to what he is now, i'll never know.

There was a time he could be considered the best in the world at what he does. Nowadays, even Spuds want him to stay Arsenal manager and understandably so

[Flavs]

Looks like the last season and a half of Graham's time to me (without the bungs)

[Marc Overmars]

No doubting the respect for Wenger will always be there and for what he's done for us. The very fact we see 4th place and going out in the CL knockouts as a flop says it all. All good things don't last forever though and Wenger is yesterdays man now, Football has moved on from 1998 and he just doesn't cut it anymore for me. If ever there was a manager living off reputation alone it has to be Arsene Wenger.

The club is stuck in a turgid cycle that remarkably repeats itself every season, it is very draining as a supporter to know exactly where the club is going wrong and to see nothing done about it. The fact my interest and emotional attachment to Arsenal has waned over the past 2 years tells me that something is broken.

It is very obvious that the club needs something radical to happen if it is going to compete at the top again.

[alexander]

Does anyone belive the club would get rid of him though? I just dont think they will, as much as I want him gone.

[Dennis Bendtner]

Can we still have a maybe here? Of course he has made mistakes. Any manager's mistakes are going to be either covered up or exacerbated funding he has behind him, though. We spend diddly squat to replace quality, let alone bring more of it in. This profit stuff makes me sick. Gooners splaffing their pants outside the stadium about Arteta/the mental SPLURGE of about £20m on deadline day told a story.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Does anyone belive the club would get rid of him though? I just dont think they will, as much as I want him gone.

If they are happy to loose £12 Million then yes

[Fats]

no

Ollie, can I ask you to elaborate. Im not being an arse, just reading your posts I understand you still think he has something to offer. Im struggling to understand your thinking, genuinely want to understand.

[Coney]

I have the utmost respect for him, his integrity and achievements but his time has passed.

Yeah - I have to broadly agree, I think he was the right man at the time he joined and made a difference to the Arsenal and it appears he had a big influence on a lot of the other PL teams who do a lot of the same stuff now - diet and so forth. However, now that the rest of the PL are doing that, we need something new again to regain the ability to challenge for honours consistently. I'm pretty sure that if Wenger had been prepared to compromise his ideals - just spend on 2 or 3 players - that could have made the difference to a lot of results which, in turn would have given rise to more trophies with a corresponding positive effect on the team mentality, turning what is a tired team into one able to turn it on and show confidence in attack and defence. Wenger has, for me, yet again shown that he has not changed - he did not do anything this January and for me that is the last straw. It might well be he is covering for the board and it is not all his decision, but as you say, the situation cannot continue and the only way that it seems it can change is if he moves on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No doubting the respect for Wenger will always be there and for what he's done for us. The very fact we see 4th place and going out in the CL knockouts as a flop says it all. All good things don't last forever though and Wenger is yesterdays man now, Football has moved on from 1998 and he just doesn't cut it anymore for me. If ever there was a manager living off reputation alone it has to be Arsene Wenger.

The club is stuck in a turgid cycle that remarkably repeats itself every season, it is very draining as a supporter to know exactly where the club is going wrong and to see nothing done about it. The fact my interest and emotional attachment to Arsenal has waned over the past 2 years tells me that something is broken.

It is very obvious that the club needs something radical to happen if it is going to compete at the top again.

The cycle is so repetitive and predictable, you can't even enjoy the successes that occur.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Ollie, can I ask you to elaborate. Im not being an arse, just reading your posts I understand you still think he has something to offer. Im struggling to understand your thinking, genuinely want to understand.

Whats wrong with Ollie saying no and leaving it at that, i understand you want to know his reasoning it behind it, but should we not repect his answer.

[Coney]

Ollie, can I ask you to elaborate. Im not being an arse, just reading your posts I understand you still think he has something to offer. Im struggling to understand your thinking, genuinely want to understand.

He would have a lot to offer if he would change his policy on not buying players and not having so many players of the same mould. But he won't, it would seem.

[Coney]

Whats wrong with Ollie saying no and leaving it at that, i understand you want to know his reasoning it behind it, but should we not repect his answer.

No.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No.

Can you elaborate on that please just want to know your reasoning behind it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Good post.

I could never disrespect the man. He took us places we never would have gone without him.


I have no problem in disrespecting the man, for me he has been complacently riding his achievements to stem the outrage of our descent into mediocrity. He has no more respect for the fans than that fat fuck Hill Wood does, look how he responded two weeks ago when he heard that there would be a fan protest just dismissed it like we were a bunch of malcontents and didn't try to take any responsibility for the fact that we were feeling aggrieved.

Also what have we achieved barring over-reaching by reaching a european cup final and going through a season unbeaten, I know it's hard for fans to believe but we won league titles before Wenger came to the club and even with his successes comes a plethora of missed oportunity. 03/04 was an open goal for us in the champions league...we had gone to stamford bridge in the quarters and ground out a decent result to stand us in good stead but we bottle it at highbury....anyone who says that the team we had couldn't have got past monaco or Mourinho's Porto doesn't know what they are talking about.

We have won three titles, by my calculations that's three less than we should have.......1998/1999 everyone will remember as United's treble year but not if we hadn't bottled it against Leeds.

2002/2003 - five points clear in february, united win by five points in May say no more

2007/2008 - five points clear in february.....i'm sure you get the picture

Not to forget the 2000 uefa cup where we outplay galatasray and lose on penalties

[Xhaka Can’t]

Your anger clouds your judgement.

[Fats]

Whats wrong with Ollie saying no and leaving it at that, i understand you want to know his reasoning it behind it, but should we not repect his answer.

Im not being pedantic. Just genuinely interested. I respect his view whether it agree's with anyones or not.

This would be a very boring forum without debate and reasoning.

I know why I would like AW to move on and am more than willing to put forward those reasons. I would like to hear, at this point in time, why someone else still has faith in him.

[Cripps_orig]

I have no problem in disrespecting the man, for me he has been complacently riding his achievements to stem the outrage of our descent into mediocrity. He has no more respect for the fans than that fat fuck Hill Wood does, look how he responded two weeks ago when he heard that there would be a fan protest just dismissed it like we were a bunch of malcontents and didn't try to take any responsibility for the fact that we were feeling aggrieved.

Also what have we achieved barring over-reaching by reaching a european cup final and going through a season unbeaten, I know it's hard for fans to believe but we won league titles before Wenger came to the club and even with his successes comes a plethora of missed oportunity. 03/04 was an open goal for us in the champions league...we had gone to stamford bridge in the quarters and ground out a decent result to stand us in good stead but we bottle it at highbury....anyone who says that the team we had couldn't have got past monaco or Mourinho's Porto doesn't know what they are talking about.

We have won three titles, by my calculations that's three less than we should have.......1998/1999 everyone will remember as United's treble year but not if we hadn't bottled it against Leeds.

2002/2003 - five points clear in february, united win by five points in May say no more

2007/2008 - five points clear in february.....i'm sure you get the picture

Not to forget the 2000 uefa cup where we outplay galatasray and lose on penalties

:goodpost:

The lack of bottle we have now was evident in previous Wenger teams. Its just come more to the fore now

[Syn]

The thing I am most surprised about is that Wenger hasn’t walked. I think the majority have wanted a change of management for some time. And it surprises me that he has stayed after being ridiculed by some sections of fans and (probably) let down by his players. Which means he thinks he can turn it around. His job description might say to deliver 4th place and a trophy would be ‘nice’ but not essential. I don’t think that is something Arsene is happy with.

Arsene is one of us. We joke about Wenger WUMing and being happy to pick up his £6m a year, but I genuinely think he is very unhappy with his job right now. He desperately wants the club to succeed - I don’t think that can be questioned. I also don’t think it can be questioned that he is doing a bad job - regardless of whether you believe he is unwilling to spend money or whether the board are not making much available. How such an intelligent guy can be so deluded of the ability in his squad (as well as - possibly - his own managerial abilities) is what is surprising.

He has a sense of perspective about everything else, it seems. Ask him about the Eurozone crisis and he’d probably give you an accurate summary. Ask him about the history of Petra and he’ll drop some knowledge. Ask him about the weaknesses of the current Arsenal team and he’ll give you some bullshit using his favourite phrases, topped off with a colourful analogy about something that isn’t remotely relevant.

[Coney]

Can you elaborate on that please just want to know your reasoning behind it.

Because. :good:

[Fats]

The thing I am most surprised about is that Wenger hasn’t walked. I think the majority have wanted a change of management for some time. And it surprises me that he has stayed after being ridiculed by some sections of fans and (probably) let down by his players. Which means he thinks he can turn it around. His job description might say to deliver 4th place and a trophy would be ‘nice’ but not essential. I don’t think that is something Arsene is happy with.

Arsene is one of us. We joke about Wenger WUMing and being happy to pick up his £6m a year, but I genuinely think he is very unhappy with his job right now. He desperately wants the club to succeed - I don’t think that can be questioned. I also don’t think it can be questioned that he is doing a bad job - regardless of whether you believe he is unwilling to spend money or whether the board are not making much available. How such an intelligent guy can be so deluded of the ability in his squad (as well as - possibly - his own managerial abilities) is what is surprising.

He has a sense of perspective about everything else, it seems. Ask him about the Eurozone crisis and he’d probably give you an accurate summary. Ask him about the history of Petra and he’ll drop some knowledge. Ask him about the weaknesses of the current Arsenal team and he’ll give you some bullshit using his favourite phrases, topped off with a colourful analogy about something that isn’t remotely relevant.

Good points.

I dont think he would ever walk while the season is in motion. At the end he might but not now.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Im not being pedantic. Just genuinely interested. I respect his view whether it agree's with anyones or not.

This would be a very boring forum without debate and reasoning.

I know why I would like AW to move on and am more than willing to put forward those reasons. I would like to hear, at this point in time, why someone else still has faith in him.

fair play

[Flavs]

I keep telling y'all the French job will be available after the Euro's

[Flavs]

Thing is done anyone NOT expect us to lose to Sunderland and then to Spurs and the scouse? We see it year after year, a heavy defeat in the UCL followed by FA cup exit and losses in the league.

We are glassjawed and its not going to change without a change in leader.

[selassie]

Yes I would like him to leave/step down/resign call it what you like.

Time for a change, has been for a couple of seasons now IMHO.

[Power n Glory]

The thing I am most surprised about is that Wenger hasn’t walked. I think the majority have wanted a change of management for some time. And it surprises me that he has stayed after being ridiculed by some sections of fans and (probably) let down by his players. Which means he thinks he can turn it around. His job description might say to deliver 4th place and a trophy would be ‘nice’ but not essential. I don’t think that is something Arsene is happy with.

Arsene is one of us. We joke about Wenger WUMing and being happy to pick up his £6m a year, but I genuinely think he is very unhappy with his job right now. He desperately wants the club to succeed - I don’t think that can be questioned. I also don’t think it can be questioned that he is doing a bad job - regardless of whether you believe he is unwilling to spend money or whether the board are not making much available. How such an intelligent guy can be so deluded of the ability in his squad (as well as - possibly - his own managerial abilities) is what is surprising.

He has a sense of perspective about everything else, it seems. Ask him about the Eurozone crisis and he’d probably give you an accurate summary. Ask him about the history of Petra and he’ll drop some knowledge. Ask him about the weaknesses of the current Arsenal team and he’ll give you some bullshit using his favourite phrases, topped off with a colourful analogy about something that isn’t remotely relevant.

He hasn't walked away because he probably feels that he carries the blame. He's suffering cause right now he looks like a man that is deep in the shit and had one too many rolls of the dice. He's not going to stop and soon or later the 'house' will have to tell him that he's had enough. He's looking like that desperate gambler everyone takes pity on.

For the type of character Wenger is, if he truly felt like he was getting shafted by the Board, he wouldn't shut up about and wouldn't have stayed here so long. Never. He'd have cracked by now and let venom rip. We've seen how he can explode if he feels like he's just been shafted.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He hasn't walked away because he probably feels that he carries the blame. He's suffering cause right now he looks like a man that is deep in the shit and had one too many rolls of the dice. He's not going to stop and soon or later the 'house' will have to tell him that he's had enough. He's looking like that desperate gambler everyone takes pity on.

For the type of character Wenger is, if he truly felt like he was getting shafted by the Board, he wouldn't shut up about and wouldn't have stayed here so long. Never. He'd have cracked by now and let venom rip. We've seen how he can explode if he feels like he's just been shafted.

yeah he would gets paid 6 mill a year so would deffo cover for the board even if he felt shafted.

[Power n Glory]

yeah he would gets paid 6 mill a year so would deffo cover for the board even if he felt shafted.

So your saying he's a greedy mercenary?

That's not what I see?

[Letters]

Good post.

I could never disrespect the man. He took us places we never would have gone without him.

:gp:

And good post Gary (to which this was a reply to - damn you VBulliten and your lack of nested quotes).

It is sad how it looks to be finishing for Wenger at Arsenal because he did take us places I'd never think I'd see us go and even now the fact that a finish outside the top 4 is something so distressing for us shows something about how he's raised expectations. But we're in a real mess and I don't think Wenger can turn it around. I'm not sure many other managers could either, especially if they're handcuffed in terms of transfer funds like Wenger is (whether through choice or imposition by the board, I suspect there's a bit of both). In some ways he's done well to keep us up there in the top few in the era of billionaire owners. The sad thing is it wouldn't have taken a silly amount of spending to keep us really competitive, a mix of the kids he brought through and some established quality would have done that. Why he's not done that...well, maybe one day he's write about it and we'll find out. But he's not a stupid man and those who disrespect him come across as ungrateful toddlers throwing toys out of the pram, they undermine their own arguments which often have solid basis.

Anyway, I voted yes. But it made me sad to do so :(

[Flavs]

be interesting to see how Stevenage get on against Spurs. Gary Smith is their manager now as in the ex-manager of the Colorado Rapids, he is also Kroenke best mate in the whole world ever...

Not that i am suggesting when big Stan replaces the board we might get a new manager

[Coney]

I voted yes. But it made me sad to do so :(

I decided to follow the example of the team. I abstained.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

So your saying he's a greedy mercenary?

That's not what I see?

Im saying the board pay him, we don't so its more of a case of not biting the hand that feeds him. Thats just IMO,

[Xhaka Can’t]

:gp:

And good post Gary (to which this was a reply to - damn you VBulliten and your lack of nested quotes).

It is sad how it looks to be finishing for Wenger at Arsenal because he did take us places I'd never think I'd see us go and even now the fact that a finish outside the top 4 is something so distressing for us shows something about how he's raised expectations. But we're in a real mess and I don't think Wenger can turn it around. I'm not sure many other managers could either, especially if they're handcuffed in terms of transfer funds like Wenger is (whether through choice or imposition by the board, I suspect there's a bit of both). In some ways he's done well to keep us up there in the top few in the era of billionaire owners. The sad thing is it wouldn't have taken a silly amount of spending to keep us really competitive, a mix of the kids he brought through and some established quality would have done that. Why he's not done that...well, maybe one day he's write about it and we'll find out. But he's not a stupid man and those who disrespect him come across as ungrateful toddlers throwing toys out of the pram, they undermine their own arguments which often have solid basis.

Anyway, I voted yes. But it made me sad to do so :(

:gp: Even as late as last season - some addition of quality experience would have been enough to make the difference - but not now. Wholesale change is needed.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:gp: Even as late as last season - some addition of quality experience would have been enough to make the difference - but not now. Wholesale change is needed.

You have hit the nail right on the head Gary. Had we bought last jan we'd have been better off for itm we'd have won the CC for a start and the good feeling would have gone on from there.

[Power n Glory]

Im saying the board pay him, we don't so its more of a case of not biting the hand that feeds him. Thats just IMO,

He could easily earn more elsewhere so I'm not convinced by that.

[Letters]

Whats wrong with Ollie saying no and leaving it at that, i understand you want to know his reasoning it behind it, but should we not repect his answer.

Nothing wrong with it but this is Arsenal Debate and one word replies (he says, expecting the geniuses on here to reply with one word) don't good debate make.

[Flavs]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the team in terms of the personnel, its the application of them that is all out of cock. I said this in another thread but forgetting all the financials and stadium moves and past history and all that, on match days are we utilising the 11 guys on the pitch the best we can. The answer is no every single time. They are poorly motivated, the tactics are wrong, they are weak mentally, we are still.....STILL shite at set pieces and they don't work for each other.

A new manager would help address this.

[Coney]

He could easily earn more elsewhere so I'm not convinced by that.

Agreed. I don't know about the board, but I am pretty sure that money is not what motivates Wenger.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Thing is done anyone NOT expect us to lose to Sunderland and then to Spurs and the scouse? We see it year after year, a heavy defeat in the UCL followed by FA cup exit and losses in the league.

We are glassjawed and its not going to change without a change in leader.

Id expect us to loose to Accrington Stanley if we played them in the week, so not loosing to these teams would not be a suprise.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Nothing wrong with it but this is Arsenal Debate and one word replies (he says, expecting the geniuses on here to reply with one word) don't good debate make.

True

[Coney]

True

Agreed.

[Letters]

Also what have we achieved barring over-reaching by reaching a european cup final and going through a season unbeaten, I know it's hard for fans to believe but we won league titles before Wenger came to the club and even with his successes comes a plethora of missed oportunity.

Yes, we did win titles before Wenger but not since the 30s had we had such concentrated period of success.
3 titles, 2 of which were complimented by the FA Cup to make them Doubles. One league season unbeaten. A couple of other FA Cups. And all in a style of football which no-one expected Arsenal to be playing. In the 90's you couldn't say "Arsenal" without the words "boring boring" preceding them. There's some dispute about who brought Bergkamp to the club, there's no dispute about Henry though and all the other players he brought in in that era. I'm not even going to list them, you know who I'm talking about.

So yeah, what have we achieved?
What have the Romans ever done for us...

And yeah, there were missed opportunities but I'd suggest you could say that about any club in any era.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the team in terms of the personnel, its the application of them that is all out of cock. I said this in another thread but forgetting all the financials and stadium moves and past history and all that, on match days are we utilising the 11 guys on the pitch the best we can. The answer is no every single time. They are poorly motivated, the tactics are wrong, they are weak mentally, we are still.....STILL shite at set pieces and they don't work for each other.

A new manager would help address this.

I agree. We really shouldn't be getting outclassed like that by anybody. The odd occasion maybe, but this is a running theme. Teams with half the players we have would look more organised and motivated.

[Letters]

I'd be interested to know, by the way, what the result of this poll would have been had it been done before last night's game. I don't think the people who voted yes are necessarily knee-jerking, but at the same time we're all affected by results and my mood about the club this year has been all over the shop this season as we've lurched from disaster to disaster between some pretty decent results and runs of form.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I'd be interested to know, by the way, what the result of this poll would have been had it been done before last night's game. I don't think the people who voted yes are necessarily knee-jerking, but at the same time we're all affected by results and my mood about the club this year has been all over the shop this season as we've lurched from disaster to disaster between some pretty decent results and runs of form.

You make a good point.

If my vote was affected - last night's result just re-enforced it.

[Power n Glory]

We've had polls like this after a loss and I can't ever remember it being so one sided.

[Özim]

Yes, lost respect for the guy the moment he started with his serial bullsh*t and also proceeded to belittle the fans.

I've found some of the cr*p he's come out with unacceptable, you have to earn respect and he did, but some of the things he's done in recent years have had the opposite effect.

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.

[Cripps_orig]

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.Same here.

[Letters]

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.

It is getting that way although I think, I certainly hope, that when the dust has settled people will still appreciate what he did for us in the first half of his career with us.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is getting that way although I think, I certainly hope, that when the dust has settled people will still appreciate what he did for us in the first half of his career with us.

I will. I'll be boring the shit out of my grandchildren about some of the football I've seen.

Which is what makes what is happening now, even harder to stomach. Someone - even if it is Dein has got to convince Wenger to go. I expect it to happen at the end of the season.

[GP]

Yeah, I'll be shocked if he's still here.

And I'll be even more shocked if he's replaced by someone we've heard of.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Yeah, I'll be shocked if he's still here.

And I'll be even more shocked if he's replaced by someone we've heard of.

I'd never heard of Wenger tbh.

[GP]

I'd never heard of Wenger tbh.

I heard of Wenger before he was cool.

:hipster douche:

[Xhaka Can’t]

:lol:

[fakeyank]

No, he should stay on for a couple more seasons and given the opportunity to rebuild this team. We are only 25% away from domination.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, lost respect for the guy the moment he started with his serial bullsh*t and also proceeded to belittle the fans.

I've found some of the cr*p he's come out with unacceptable, you have to earn respect and he did, but some of the things he's done in recent years have had the opposite effect.

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.


He will always be respected for what he did though and all gooners will be thankful to him for that. Don't really think he has spoilt what he achived as it will always be remembered regaldless of how his regin ends.

[Marc Overmars]

Another cause for concern is that Wenger will probably have a say in who is successor should be, I mean he approved the appointment of Gazidis didn't he. Fancy that, choosing your own boss. :wacko:

Dragan Stojkovic is rumoured to have been earmarked, apparently he's a mini-Wenger. Spookily also currently managing the club in Japan Wenger did before he joined us. It's just not what we need right now.

I understand the clubs self-sustaining policy, it's rammed down our throats enough times, but I really hope when Wenger does leave, the club back the new manager with some funds even if it means taking a hit on the profits for one year. The new guy has to be given a chance to compete. Wenger spent some relatively large amounts during his first 4-5 years to build his team, so hopefully that is the case for his successor. Otherwise the cycle will just go on and on.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I will. I'll be boring the shit out of my grandchildren about some of the football I've seen.

Which is what makes what is happening now, even harder to stomach. Someone - even if it is Dein has got to convince Wenger to go. I expect it to happen at the end of the season.

Did you see him yestersday looking all dejected and what not, does not look like a man who has any fight left im him, imo he will be gone in the summer he really will, id be suprised if he is here in july.

[Coney]

George Graham thinks he might have finished at the Arsenal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17065874

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Another slight cause for concern is that Wenger will probably have a say in who is successor should be, I mean he approved the appointment of Gazidis didn't he. Fancy that, choosing your own boss. :wacko:

Dragan Stojkovic is rumoured to have been earmarked, apparently he's a mini-Wenger. Spookily also currently managing the club in Japan Wenger did before he joined us.

I understand the clubs self-sustaining policy, it's rammed down our throats enough times, but I really hope when Wenger does leave, the club back the new manager with some funds even if it means taking a hit on the profits for one year. The new guy has to be given a chance to compete. Wenger spent some relatively large amounts during his first 4-5 years to build his team, so hopefully that is the case for his successor.

Not really a concern i mean SAF is having a say to who will suceed him, so don't see the problem with wenger doing the same. Don't mean the new manager will be a Wenger clone etc. Its The board who will have he final say anyways.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Another cause for concern is that Wenger will probably have a say in who is successor should be, I mean he approved the appointment of Gazidis didn't he. Fancy that, choosing your own boss. :wacko:

Dragan Stojkovic is rumoured to have been earmarked, apparently he's a mini-Wenger. Spookily also currently managing the club in Japan Wenger did before he joined us. It's just not what we need right now.

I understand the clubs self-sustaining policy, it's rammed down our throats enough times, but I really hope when Wenger does leave, the club back the new manager with some funds even if it means taking a hit on the profits for one year. The new guy has to be given a chance to compete. Wenger spent some relatively large amounts during his first 4-5 years to build his team, so hopefully that is the case for his successor. Otherwise the cycle will just go on and on.

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/ef/ef1382815d16877c9bd690726ebe5b00/when_did_arsenal_sign_minime.jpg

Yep, I've been drinkin hot whiskey.

[GP]

Gazidis just got back from Kamino where he's been overseeing the development of the Wenger Clone Army.

[DJ Philosophe]

No doubting the respect for Wenger will always be there and for what he's done for us. The very fact we see 4th place and going out in the CL knockouts as a flop says it all. All good things don't last forever though and Wenger is yesterdays man now, Football has moved on from 1998 and he just doesn't cut it anymore for me. If ever there was a manager living off reputation alone it has to be Arsene Wenger.

The club is stuck in a turgid cycle that remarkably repeats itself every season, it is very draining as a supporter to know exactly where the club is going wrong and to see nothing done about it. The fact my interest and emotional attachment to Arsenal has waned over the past 2 years tells me that something is broken.

It is very obvious that the club needs something radical to happen if it is going to compete at the top again.

Exactly what I would have posted. He set a high standard the even he, AW, cannot maintain anymore. Also, would like to add to it the fact that AW has bred a culture of mediocrity at the club by bringing in average players and hyping them up to be superstars, when they are really just not good enough. That psychological theory has finally come back to haunt him over the past years.

[Marc Overmars]

Not really a concern i mean SAF is having a say to who will suceed him, so don't see the problem with wenger doing the same. Don't mean the new manager will be a Wenger clone etc. Its The board who will have he final say anyways.

Exactly and the board will probably go for someone who they think will be happy to work under the self-sustaining policy and make a profit every year.

[Marc Overmars]

Also, serious GW scares me.

[GP]

Also, serious GW scares me.

It's not often I'll make a serious thread, but the results of the poll are overwhelming.

[AKBapologist]

Oh yes, lets make a knee jerk poll after a big defeat.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's not often I'll make a serious thread, but the results of the poll are overwhelming.

Funny and serious, but....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Y6PchDYfw

[Olivier's xmas twist]

George Graham thinks he might have finished at the Arsenal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17065874

Graham, makes a good point tbh, Wenger is still a good manager, However you'd feel he needs a new challenge, something that will get him motivated for footie not Blance sheets.

I really think he believes what he is doing is in the best intrest of the club, But is still subborn to admit his ways are wrong. Even though he has a lil this season.

[Cripps_orig]

Oh yes, lets make a knee jerk poll after a big defeat.So you want him to stay?

[Xhaka Can’t]

So you want him to stay?

It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.


True, Like many have said freshness is needed, we may not win the league for another 5 years with a new manager or even win a trophy, but to see us playing a diffrent way would be worth it, if we are doing the basics right.

End of the day everyone has to go at somepoint, even labour got kicked out afther 13 years, what makes Wenger think he has the right to stay longer then he should.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Yes, lost respect for the guy the moment he started with his serial bullsh*t and also proceeded to belittle the fans.

I've found some of the cr*p he's come out with unacceptable, you have to earn respect and he did, but some of the things he's done in recent years have had the opposite effect.

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.:gp:
Respect has to be earnt, but it can also be lost.

Wenger is just a bloke doing a job (badly) after all, he's not god ffs!

[Cripps_orig]

:gp:
Respect has to be earnt, but it can also be lost.

Winger is just a bloke doing a job (badly) after all, he's not god ffs!

No he isnt, Dennis Bergkamp is

:bow:

[Cripps_orig]

It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.Not if Wenger has a say in his successor then its the same old shit.

We need someone who can change everything about the team, from their attitude, mentality, their bottle etc all of which is sadly lacking under Wenger and getting a mini Wenger wont do us any good at all

[Cripps_orig]

Who are the 3 who said no?

Like Fats said, id love to know why not.

What do they see in Wenger that makes them want to keep him? Do they genuinely see him turning it around despite all the evidence to the contrary? Or is it simply a case of undying loyalty?

[KSE Comedy Club]

Who are the 3 who said no?Like Fats said, id love to know why not.What do they see in Wenger that makes them want to keep him? Do they genuinely see him turning it around despite all the evidence to the contrary? Or is it simply a case of undying loyalty?I reckon the other two were letters and GB despite saying otherwise :ninja:

Out of sheer respectful love, they just couldn't help themselves :lol:

[AKBapologist]

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?

[Cripps_orig]

Not sure bout Letters.

Pretty sure GB said yes though

[KSE Comedy Club]

I guess stan will have to be more active this summer when the lockout agreement ends :shrug:

Still wish he would fuck off as well tbh.

[fakeyank]

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?

Dont worry.. our fans still think protesting or taking banners is childish. True change will be made by being keyboard warriors on a MB! :good:

[LDG]

This is the most gut-wrenching question of them all, and to anyone with a heart, it makes me very sad to contemplate. To me it comes down to two simple things.

Firstly, it depends on what is the real story with our finances, buying power and competetiveness in the transfer market. If wenger is still complicit in the under-funding of the team, then yes, he should go.

Secondly, you have to ask the question of leadership from within. Does he, or did he ever have (pre-installed arsenal tradition and passion in a readymade back four, aside) the ability to motivate, and get players mentally ready to do whatever it takes?

This impacts slightly on the first question, as I don't think pre-RVP, that we've had a captain or any leadership since Vieira left, and over reliance on youth has knocked the stuffing out of us. I think this is pivotal to the whole thing.

We lost our tradition and history to a degree when we moved and cleared out the old gaurd, who we replaced with kids too young or too "foriegn" to appreciate what The Arsenal are about. Wenger is part of this, and despite all the good things he's done, underestimating the impact of not rolling over that history through his rebuilding of squads is unforgivable.

Of course the board and their americanisation of the arsenal experience is to blame as well. So regarding the second point, he should be held accountable for destroying some of what it means to be a gooner. That is unforgivable.

I still believe he is a good man. A great thinker. Passionate, but a recluse. A genius at spotting talent, but with a stubborness that stops him listening to or carrying out the very basic principles of football.

I really am torn in deciding whether he can or will reverse those mistakes. Can he still manage a team to success? Yes. He's a top manager. But can he breath life back into THE Arsenal...i'm not so sure he can.

In the cold light of day, yes, he should go. With my affection for the man and what he was and what i still think he can be......there's still a apart of me that wants him to stay and succeed???

It's all so sad :(

[Xhaka Can’t]

I reckon the other two were letters and GB despite saying otherwise :ninja:

Out of sheer respectful love, they just couldn't help themselves :lol:

Damn - you got me!

[LDG]

The thing I am most surprised about is that Wenger hasn’t walked. I think the majority have wanted a change of management for some time. And it surprises me that he has stayed after being ridiculed by some sections of fans and (probably) let down by his players. Which means he thinks he can turn it around. His job description might say to deliver 4th place and a trophy would be ‘nice’ but not essential. I don’t think that is something Arsene is happy with.

Arsene is one of us. We joke about Wenger WUMing and being happy to pick up his £6m a year, but I genuinely think he is very unhappy with his job right now. He desperately wants the club to succeed - I don’t think that can be questioned. I also don’t think it can be questioned that he is doing a bad job - regardless of whether you believe he is unwilling to spend money or whether the board are not making much available. How such an intelligent guy can be so deluded of the ability in his squad (as well as - possibly - his own managerial abilities) is what is surprising.
He has a sense of perspective about everything else, it seems. Ask him about the Eurozone crisis and he’d probably give you an accurate summary. Ask him about the history of Petra and he’ll drop some knowledge. Ask him about the weaknesses of the current Arsenal team and he’ll give you some bullshit using his favourite phrases, topped off with a colourful analogy about something that isn’t remotely relevant.

This is a real good summary to me.

I don't think he is deluded. I actually think he has fine morals and principles which are the underpinning of everything he has done. He expects players, as people, to educate, motivate and achieve success themselves. He obviously gives guidance, but I don't think he acts as a teacher should...he should have authority and demand what he wants as well as letting players learn for themselves. Part of that is giving the team a balance of youth and (winning) experience, which he has failed to do.

We could buy any number of the most highly rated youngsters going, but without a group of proven quality, experienced internationals to help blood these players, it's pointless.

His biggest failing if you ask me. Get the right players in, with the right experience, and you don't need the tactics so much. It's why our successful teams of the past were successful...they didn't need to be told.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not if Wenger has a say in his successor then its the same old shit.

We need someone who can change everything about the team, from their attitude, mentality, their bottle etc all of which is sadly lacking under Wenger and getting a mini Wenger wont do us any good at all

Makes no diffrence if he has a say in his successor or not tbh, Managers like Him and SAF will always get to recommend who they think is good for the job, does not mean the guy has to be a Wenger clone at all.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I guess stan will have to be more active this summer when the lockout agreement ends :shrug:

Still wish he would fuck off as well tbh.

For me this is a bigger problem at the club, Not having 1 clear owner is messing us up big time, it be nice to have one man calling the shots not about 10 diffrent guys.

Really hope the ownership situation gets sorted out ASAP, It has been said before that Stan won't make big decisions till he owns the clun fully and we are seeing that now.

[Kano]

you do have to wonder, if our players are 'shit' and our manager is 'clueless' what does that say about the other 16 teams below us? paired with the fact that the top two couldn't even get out of their qualifying groups in the cl.

[Letters]

Dont worry.. our fans still think protesting or taking banners is childish.
I don't think anyone has said that, what people have said is that fan protests aren't that effective. If the board only care about getting our money, and it seems they do, then paying money to go and protest is about as effective as the people who bought records in the wake of the John Lennon "bigger than Jesus" kerfuffle to burn them in protest...and then went out and bought replacements. They've still got our money, why would they care about a few banners?
Big, co-ordinated, sustained protest may have more effect but, in practise, that isn't going to happen.


What is childish is insults/abuse aimed at Wenger. It makes the people doing it look like toddlers throwing their toys out of the pram and detracts from their opinions which may well be sensible ones but expressed in such a childish way don't encourage engaging with.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?


While it be nice to win a trophy every season its not realisic to happen, as a club we have never really done back to back titles, cups unless is was the fa cup. So i don't expect us to change that now. Just as 10 -13 years ago we never signed big players, When you could buy a world class player for 15-20 Mill tops, so i don't expect us to sign them now when they are going for silly money.

With the budget Wenger has had i think he has done a marvellous job, But he does need to take the blame for some of the players he has signed. Do i think he should go because of not spending and not winning trophy's in 7 years? No

I think he should go because i don't belive he can take us any further anymore. Even if he went out and spent money on world class players,i still think he needs a change from Arsenal.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't think anyone has said that, what people have said is that fan protests aren't that effective. If the board only care about getting our money, and it seems they do, then paying money to go and protest is about as effective as the people who bought records in the wake of the John Lennon "bigger than Jesus" kerfuffle to burn them in protest...and then went out and bought replacements. They've still got our money, why would they care about a few banners?
Big, co-ordinated, sustained protest may have more effect but, in practise, that isn't going to happen.


What is childish is insults/abuse aimed at Wenger. It makes the people doing it look like toddlers throwing their toys out of the pram and detracts from their opinions which may well be sensible ones but expressed in such a childish way don't encourage engaging with.

Just think people are frustated with him knowing what he has done for us in the past, im not condoning anyone calling him names, think people feel he is taking the piss etc. Until we actually know whats gone on in the club he will take the flack from fans unfortunately.

And Also you have to remember we are in the a place that most Arsenal fans never thought they see spurs finishing above us, Yes it was going to happen one day but most though later rather then sooner, and the fact its happening under Wenger is made him more hated by fans. Just as the Recssion Under Labour made them more hated by the GBP.

[Arsenal Fan]

first time i've voted yes to one of these

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yes because I don't think he is giving us the best possible chance of success.

[Letters]

Just think people are frustated with him knowing what he has done for us in the past, im not condoning anyone calling him names, think people feel he is taking the piss etc. Until we actually know whats gone on in the club he will take the flack from fans unfortunately.

And Also you have to remember we are in the a place that most Arsenal fans never thought they see spurs finishing above us, Yes it was going to happen one day but most though later rather then sooner, and the fact its happening under Wenger is made him more hated by fans. Just as the Recssion Under Labour made them more hated by the GBP.

I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.

Some people on here are too young to remember the days when finishing below Spurs was not uncommon. In the early to mid 90's it happened 3 years out of 6. It happened 4 times in the 80's. In that era there wasn't that much between the sides. Younger fans have become used to having the bragging rights over our North London rivals and the thought of finishing below them has become unthinkable. They may do well to remember that it's only become that way because of the level Wenger took us to.

All that said we shouldn't be finishing below Spurs simply because success in football has increasingly become about money and in theory we should have far more resources than Spurs, a much bigger stadium, we charge much more to go to games, we've been in the CL year on year and we have a bigger global fanbase. Spurs over-taking us is the result of mismanagement throughout the club, not just from Wenger.

[LDG]

I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.

Some people on here are too young to remember the days when finishing below Spurs was not uncommon. In the early to mid 90's it happened 3 years out of 6. It happened 4 times in the 80's. In that era there wasn't that much between the sides. Younger fans have become used to having the bragging rights over our North London rivals and the thought of finishing below them has become unthinkable. They may do well to remember that it's only become that way because of the level Wenger took us to.

All that said we shouldn't be finishing below Spurs simply because success in football has increasingly become about money and in theory we should have far more resources than Spurs, a much bigger stadium, we charge much more to go to games, we've been in the CL year on year and we have a bigger global fanbase. Spurs over-taking us is the result of mismanagement throughout the club, not just from Wenger.

I keep banging on about the basics, but that's what it comes down to.

I know money talks, and 'Arry loves a deal, he does; but he still does the basics. He adds quality, and experience to teams....and in January, despite having a half decent strikeforce, bough Saha at a snip. They were playing well anyway, but what Wenger failed to do when we were going for the league last year, and in previous years, was to add to the squad to ENSURE we did as well as we could.

You're right though. Given the resources at both clubs, we should not be behind by such a margin.

Player for player, we're not that far off them, mind. But we have a piss poor mentality, so again, 'Arry wins, because he get's da lads upfer it. They're cracking lads vey are.

[Dicks and chicks]

no because no one else can do a better job under such a small budget.

[GP]

no because no one else can do a better job under such a small budget.

They couldn't do any worse

:someidiotwhowisheshewasamerican:

[Daniele]

While it be nice to win a trophy every season its not realisic to happen, as a club we have never really done back to back titles, cups unless is was the fa cup. So i don't expect us to change that now. Just as 10 -13 years ago we never signed big players, When you could buy a world class player for 15-20 Mill tops, so i don't expect us to sign them now when they are going for silly money.

With the budget Wenger has had i think he has done a marvellous job, But he does need to take the blame for some of the players he has signed. Do i think he should go because of not spending and not winning trophy's in 7 years? No

I think he should go because i don't belive he can take us any further anymore. Even if he went out and spent money on world class players,i still think he needs a change from Arsenal.

I agree with you. I think that AW cannot work on the players' heads anymore.

[GP]

I wish the French **** would die in a car crash.

[Daniele]

If AW had bought Parker and Klose last summer instead of Arteta and Park (?) we would have saved money and had a better team.
Mertesacker was a good buy and missed him so much on Weds

[Coney]

I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.

It's also an 8 match ban if you do that outside GW. :good:

[Coney]

If AW had bought Parker and Klose last summer instead of Arteta and Park (?) we would have saved money and had a better team.
Mertesacker was a good buy and missed him so much on Weds

Just Klose instead of Park - and actually playing him - would have meant we would be challenging for the PL title this year. Which, again, just makes it so fucking frustrating.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Just Klose instead of Park - and actually playing him - would have meant we would be challenging for the PL title this year. Which, again, just makes it so fucking frustrating.Well, we can't properly ennumerate Park's contribution to us until we figure out how much goodwill in Asia we've accrued by...royally fucking up his career.

...bugger.

[LDG]

http://arseblog.com/2012/02/voyage-voyage-one-part-desireless/

Bloody brilliant piece this....

[Cripps_orig]

Makes no diffrence if he has a say in his successor or not tbh, Managers like Him and SAF will always get to recommend who they think is good for the job, does not mean the guy has to be a Wenger clone at all.A lot of things make no difference according to you

[fakeyank]

I don't think anyone has said that, what people have said is that fan protests aren't that effective. If the board only care about getting our money, and it seems they do, then paying money to go and protest is about as effective as the people who bought records in the wake of the John Lennon "bigger than Jesus" kerfuffle to burn them in protest...and then went out and bought replacements. They've still got our money, why would they care about a few banners?
Big, co-ordinated, sustained protest may have more effect but, in practise, that isn't going to happen.


What is childish is insults/abuse aimed at Wenger. It makes the people doing it look like toddlers throwing their toys out of the pram and detracts from their opinions which may well be sensible ones but expressed in such a childish way don't encourage engaging with.

Well protests arent effective.. as we have seen from what happened to Utd fans protesting or Leeds fans protesting. What it does at least is bring attention to the growing discontent among fans. Even the 'silly bin liner' protest got a good deal of media attention. Like a wise man said, the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. At least give it a freaking try. Take a group of friends, like minded people and there will be plenty among Arsenal fans who takes a banner or just stands outside the stadium before a game with a banner asking "We pay the highest tickets in world football yet our standards keep falling.. we need answers!"

You might be a bunch 10-15 ppl doing it but do it! Give it a start! May be you will fail but harping on a message board is not going to help. Thats why I say that majority of arsenal fans are just not passionate enough. May be the ones whose voice will make a difference come from middle to upper class background and for them, protesting is not a cool thing to do or it doesnt matter. God, I wish I lived in London...

[LDG]

I'll support them evermore.

[Joker]

We should at least make our voices heard. Sustained protests by the fans will look embarrassing to the board, and for a "business" (which is all we are to them) it cannot be good for brand image. At least it could kickstart a wider debate about the direction that the club is heading towards. At the moment it seems this discussion is confined to the message-boards. Let's bring it to the front pages and bring some publicity to the problems that are affecting the club. The board may not care as long as we're paying for tickets, but it will at least make them worried that the fans won't simply be content paying sky-rocketing ticket prices, and that demand may drop alarmingly if we carry on the way we're going. Attendances have already dropped (despite the PA announcing 60,000 at games when it's obvious it's nowhere near a sellout)

[fakeyank]

I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.


I dont understand this elitist way of looking at things. This is a fans message board and fans are supposed to be passionate. When we lose, I want to see Adzzz style anger... if someone thinks he is a ****, call him a ****! AW treats the fans like they are dumbasses, plays players out of position, doesnt do the basics right and a fan is not supposed to get passionate and call him a **** or whatever he is.. IMO, he deserves all the vile and shit he is getting!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

A lot of things make no difference according to you

Not really, But i don't see how Wenger saying, for example " I think Jose M would be a good choice to replace me" Is tat going to turn jose into a mini wenger.

[Cripps_orig]

I dont understand this elitist way of looking at things. This is a fans message board and fans are supposed to be passionate. When we lose, I want to see Adzzz style anger... if someone thinks he is a ****, call him a ****! AW treats the fans like they are dumbasses, plays players out of position, doesnt do the basics right and a fan is not supposed to get passionate and call him a **** or whatever he is.. IMO, he deserves all the vile and shit he is getting!It hurts Wengers feelings tbh

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It hurts Wengers feelings tbh

Highly doubt he gives a monkeys tbh

[Coney]

I dont understand this elitist way of looking at things. This is a fans message board and fans are supposed to be passionate. When we lose, I want to see Adzzz style anger... if someone thinks he is a ****, call him a ****! AW treats the fans like they are dumbasses, plays players out of position, doesnt do the basics right and a fan is not supposed to get passionate and call him a **** or whatever he is.. IMO, he deserves all the vile and shit he is getting!

I guess since you in the USA you aren't so familiar with the concept of civilisation.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I dont understand this elitist way of looking at things. This is a fans message board and fans are supposed to be passionate. When we lose, I want to see Adzzz style anger... if someone thinks he is a ****, call him a ****! AW treats the fans like they are dumbasses, plays players out of position, doesnt do the basics right and a fan is not supposed to get passionate and call him a **** or whatever he is.. IMO, he deserves all the vile and shit he is getting!

So should people say i hope the **** dies a horrible death, how far does it go. How many of the people who say these things would say it to his face if they had the chance?

[fakeyank]

So should people say i hope the **** dies a horrible death, how far does it go. How many of the people who say these things would say it to his face if they had the chance?

Wishing death upon someone or physical or mental harm upon someone is terrible IMO. IF someone says it in the heat of the moment, then so be it! Unless that person is personally plotting to kill AW or harm him in some way, it should be looked at a fan being pissed!

[Xhaka Can’t]

I wish people would stop quoting fy.

[fakeyank]

I guess since you in the USA you aren't so familiar with the concept of civilisation.

Yup, we are not all keyboard warriors here! And also the reason, so many yanks are coming over to england and raping the clubs dry with not even an 'ouch' coming out of the mouth. I'd rather remain uncivilized but powerful!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wishing death upon someone or physical or mental harm upon someone is terrible IMO. IF someone says it in the heat of the moment, then so be it! Unless that person is personally plotting to kill AW or harm him in some way, it should be looked at a fan being pissed!

I have no problem with people calling him the C word in frustation etc, or if after a loss and he comes out with his shite even more then fine go for it, but i don't think he needs to be abused for the sake off it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:crying: Please!!!!!

[fakeyank]

I have no problem with people calling him the C word in frustation etc, or if after a loss and he comes out with his shite even more then fine go for it, but i don't think he needs to be abused for the sake off it.

Nobody is abusing him 'for the sake of it'. He is reaping what he has been sowing for the last 3-4 years! Fans have that anger and frustration towards him and they are showing it.

[fakeyank]

:crying: Please!!!!!

:pal:

[Master Splinter]

I a vile shit!

:gp:

[fakeyank]

On another important note, there are 10 absolutely clueless dumbasses who want AW to stay! :lol:

Thats close to 30% of the people who voted! When God was distributing brains, these guys were clearly absent!

[Coney]

:crying: Please!!!!!

Sorry - you're right. :good:

[Joker]

Yeah can't understand how people still think Wenger should stay, but that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. Of course, it is exactly these same people who abused the fans who wanted Wenger out at the start of the season, and tried their best to suppress dissent on this message-board.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Yeah can't understand how people still think Wenger should stay, but that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. Of course, it is exactly these same people who abused the fans who wanted Wenger out at the start of the season, and tried their best to suppress dissent on this message-board.

:haha:

[Özim]

On another important note, there are 10 absolutely clueless dumbasses who want AW to stay! :lol:

Thats close to 30% of the people who voted! When God was distributing brains, these guys were clearly absent!
It's a complete joke to be honest, think he'd had to go on some sort of fan killing spree before they changed their mind.

[fakeyank]

Yeah can't understand how people still think Wenger should stay, but that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. Of course, it is exactly these same people who abused the fans who wanted Wenger out at the start of the season, and tried their best to suppress dissent on this message-board.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/roomfordebate/dissent3.480.jpg

[Xhaka Can’t]

Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a dumbass. Perhaps people wouldn't think that of you if you could express yourself without sounding like a spoilt toddler every once in a while.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Back on topic, I was going to post when it was something like 13-1 in this poll that it always seems that those who want him to go get their votes in quick when the question is posed only for the gap to narrow considerably the following day.

Almost always happens.

[Coney]

Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a dumbass. Perhaps people wouldn't think that of you if you could express yourself without sounding like a spoilt toddler every once in a while.

Stick a Fork in Fakeyank...He's Done!!!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's a complete joke to be honest, think he'd had to go on some sort of fan killing spree before they changed their mind.

Why is it a joke its peoples Opinons, so because you want him out everyone else has to. Your entilted to want wenger out just as they are entileed to want him to stay.

[fakeyank]

Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a dumbass. Perhaps people wouldn't think that of you if you could express yourself without sounding like a spoilt toddler every once in a while.

Its the same way Arsene Wenger OUT brigade is treated. You think its disrespectful to call him a ****, thats your opinion, I think he is! I really do believe anyone who thinks AW should stay is deluded.. Myself along with others have pointed out hundreds of reasons why he should leave. I just hope he has the integrity to resign and leave some sort of a positive legacy.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I want Wenger out and don't feel treated like that.

If you get treated like that it is because your posts make you sound like an emotionally immature toddler.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Im saying the board pay him, we don't so its more of a case of not biting the hand that feeds him. Thats just IMO,

Reading this thread from the start as I think every Gooner should and felt now the first time to replt (sure there will be a few more)

Hurts me to finally admit that Wenger us reaching the end of the road for us, agree with GB that he has been great for us but time is fast running out, I believe we might see that change next season, cant see it happening mid. . .as the a la carte list of replacements are not available unless you want Mick McCarthy?

I also afree with Letters and he has been saying this for a long time, those calling the guy a c u n# are out of order, the guy has done wonders for the club, his biggest mistake is misreading the signs and seemingly do nothing to stop the rot, whether this was because he was damcing to anoyher persons tun, which I believe is partly true makes it slightly sadder because there has been an increasing need for the club to show its balls both on and off the pitch.

I dont believe money matters to AW, I would hazard a guess he loves the club(a la Henry) and do the job for free

I couldnt vote, head says yes heart says no. . .would be sad to see him go but cant see blue skies for the club if he stays. . .said before though it wont be all topless cheerleaders and lines of coke for the fans at halfrime come any change in manager

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Id expect us to loose to Accrington Stanley if we played them in the week, so not loosing to these teams would not be a suprise.

Will win today and against Spuds. . .dont care if anyone thinks I'm WUMing cos I'm not. . .only thing is that I imagine we will have to put up with 'amazing spirit shown by team' BS spin from Wumger

[Japan Shaking All Over]

While it be nice to win a trophy every season its not realisic to happen, as a club we have never really done back to back titles, cups unless is was the fa cup. So i don't expect us to change that now. Just as 10 -13 years ago we never signed big players, When you could buy a world class player for 15-20 Mill tops, so i don't expect us to sign them now when they are going for silly money.

With the budget Wenger has had i think he has done a marvellous job, But he does need to take the blame for some of the players he has signed. Do i think he should go because of not spending and not winning trophy's in 7 years? No

I think he should go because i don't belive he can take us any further anymore. Even if he went out and spent money on world class players,i still think he needs a change from Arsenal.

Good Post Charlie! Especially the middle part. . .I come from a generation a la Coney, Letters, et all that never Arsenal cime close to the league after a run of three FAC finals, Alan Sunderlands afro :bow:

We are sailing too close to the rocks and a new captain is needed, allow a new manager access to the war chest. . .or do something similar to our purchase of Bergkamp should smacked of Wenger playing an early hand rather than Rioch pulling out a ace!

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I keep banging on about the basics, but that's what it comes down to.

I know money talks, and 'Arry loves a deal, he does; but he still does the basics. He adds quality, and experience to teams....and in January, despite having a half decent strikeforce, bough Saha at a snip. They were playing well anyway, but what Wenger failed to do when we were going for the league last year, and in previous years, was to add to the squad to ENSURE we did as well as we could.

You're right though. Given the resources at both clubs, we should not be behind by such a margin.

Player for player, we're not that far off them, mind. But we have a piss poor mentality, so again, 'Arry wins, because he get's da lads upfer it. They're cracking lads vey are.

Arry's pick up of Saha and our DVD rental period of Henry shows how the psyche of the two mangers differ. . .Arry has proven over the course of the season that he will accept nothing that could damage the club or at least without a fight a la Modric and his subsequent remaining at the club

Wenger let ours go, which I agreed with cos I thought they would be replaced with likewise quality and with enough time to settle in
The get of Henry gave his three goals (2 match winners :bow:) and a tearful farewell. . , it showed not no ounce of ambition because his departure leaves in the same hole with no back up to RvP. . .the only way I could forgive this kind of mismanagement is if we bought big in the summer but that was how I was feeling at the end of last summer when I thought about this January.

Wenger keeps breaking our hearts and it has to stop especially when Arry keeps showing us up. . .Im not saying Saha was our answer but Parker could have been and a similar arry lije reinforcement of the team could have been too!

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I did not vote 'no' but wouldnt call myself a dumbass if I did!
I did not vote 'yes' either and wouldnt think myself enlightened if I did!

What I dont get is the way people direct their hate towards Wenger, I have heard FY argue his case without using profanity and at times those arguements can be convincing, but when using words like cu#t I think you lose the attention of your audience.

I also think Wengers end is inevitable and these malice attacks are similar to kicking a person when they are down and rank high on a ****-a-meter

I am not saying you have to treat him with kid gloves or even show him an sympathy but surely your arguements could be more constructive than justifying your knowledge of English swear words.

You may end up on the winning team, ie Wenger goes but if he ever turned things around (dont worry he wont) you would have no right to praise him without suffering the same abuse you dished out.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Its the same way Arsene Wenger OUT brigade is treated. You think its disrespectful to call him a ****, thats your opinion, I think he is! I really do believe anyone who thinks AW should stay is deluded.. Myself along with others have pointed out hundreds of reasons why he should leave. I just hope he has the integrity to resign and leave some sort of a positive legacy.

So because the likes of you and Zimm and ACH think he should leave the rest that don't are deluded or dumbasses or a joke. Are we not alllowed freedom of speech or should we be under your dictatorship because you say so. I voted yes he should go, But i don't think those that want hm to stay are deluded, see them more as being loyal to him which their allowed too.

If you want people to treat you better don't post like a 10 year old boy, who is in a huff because he never got the Ben 10 cards he wanted.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Today's news, the players have vented their frustration at arsene wenger as they don't practice defending enough in training.

Proof that he doesn't get the basics right.

Oh and ibrahimovic is urging RVP to leave.

[Power n Glory]

So because the likes of you and Zimm and ACH think he should leave the rest that don't are deluded or dumbasses or a joke. Are we not alllowed freedom of speech or should we be under your dictatorship because you say so. I voted yes he should go, But i don't think those that want hm to stay are deluded, see them more as being loyal to him which their allowed too.

If you want people to treat you better don't post like a 10 year old boy, who is in a huff because he never got the Ben 10 cards he wanted.

You are a funny guy.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Can we stop with the 'holier than thou' tripe that keeps getting repeated on here.

Ok, some of you might not like the name calling and abusive type posts that get put on here at times, but I don't think people's backgrounds / way of life are taken into account on here.

Just because someone wants to call wenger a ****, it doesn't make them childish or a 'spoilt toddler', just someone that is angry, frustrated and venting.

It might sound harsh but some people view these names, etc differently to others.
I had a debate with letters a while ago as to wether anyone would call wenger a **** to his face. He didnt think anyone would, I said I know plenty of people that would and wouldn't batter an eyelid.

The only reason being that I work in a small factory, and every bloke there has called someone a 'fucking ****' at some point, either jokingly or seriously. It's just another way of venting for them.

Office workers are a lot more composed as its a very different environment.

It just comes across as elitist. We're all arsenal fans, we all want the club to be a success and get back to winning ways, now is the time to stick together not put a bigger wedge between us.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Today's news, the players have vented their frustration at arsene wenger as they don't practice defending enough in training.

Proof that he doesn't get the basics right.

Oh and ibrahimovic is urging RVP to leave.

I saw that Article in the sun and was wary of it as no players were mentiond, more of a Sun Sorces thing. Not saying its not true.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You are a funny guy.

?

[KSE Comedy Club]

I saw that Article in the sun and was wary of it as no players were mentiond, more of a Sun Sorces thing. Not saying its not true.We don't know if it happened or not, same as wenger getting the team in for training and giving them all a bolocking the other day.

I was just posting what was on ssn app this morning :good:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We don't know if it happened or not, same as wenger getting the team in for training and giving them all a bolocking the other day.

I was just posting what was on ssn app this morning :good:

We all know that We don't to defensive caoching so the players could be uspset, i was just confused that they did not name names.

[KSE Comedy Club]

We all know that We don't to defensive caoching so the players could be uspset, i was just confused that they did not name names.It's possible that someone working at the club heard what the players were saying and just passed off some info to a journo, I'm sure it happens sometimes without direct quotes.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Can we stop with the 'holier than thou' tripe that keeps getting repeated on here.

Ok, some of you might not like the name calling and abusive type posts that get put on here at times, but I don't think people's backgrounds / way of life are taken into account on here.

Just because someone wants to call wenger a ****, it doesn't make them childish or a 'spoilt toddler', just someone that is angry, frustrated and venting.

It might sound harsh but some people view these names, etc differently to others.
I had a debate with letters a while ago as to wether anyone would call wenger a **** to his face. He didnt think anyone would, I said I know plenty of people that would and wouldn't batter an eyelid.

The only reason being that I work in a small factory, and every bloke there has called someone a 'fucking ****' at some point, either jokingly or seriously. It's just another way of venting for them.

Office workers are a lot more composed as its a very different environment.

It just comes across as elitist. We're all arsenal fans, we all want the club to be a success and get back to winning ways, now is the time to stick together not put a bigger wedge between us.

nm

[KSE Comedy Club]

So, in your next post you'll be having a go at FY for calling anyone with a different view from his dumbasses? Can't wait. The odd bit of venting is excusable - but almost every single post? I'm not having a go.

And yes FY has to also accept that people aren't thick, retarded or dumbasses just because they might want wenger to stay. That goes for zimm and ach too.

Part of me would love for him to be tough, ship out the shit, buy some great players and win the league next season with counter attacking football, like we used to. Restore some dignity and respect in him.

But that won't happen, so I think he should go. I've watched the same season happen for nearly 7 years and I've had enough. We all want the same outcome, we just don't all agree on how that should be achieved. Doesn't mean we should be attacking each other with childish, petty, dumbass point scoring though ;)

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't think anything will change with him. You can put money on the pattern our season will follow. The only thing unique about this season has been the exceptionally pathetic start.

We need to change almost everything we do, our transfer policy, wage structure, tactics, Manager, players, Board...etc.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I don't think anything will change with him. You can put money on the pattern our season will follow. The only thing unique about this season has been the exceptionally pathetic start.

We need to change almost everything we do, our transfer policy, wage structure, tactics, Manager, players, Board...etc.Agree 100%.

The answer is clear, but it all seems so impossible to achieve it.

I only hope that kronke will come to the fore this summer, tell the board their time is up, then make some changes to turn the club around.

Best case scenario would see him invite usmanov to team up with him and pump some serious money into the team.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Agree 100%.

The answer is clear, but it all seems so impossible to achieve it.

I only hope that kronke will come to the fore this summer, tell the board their time is up, then make some changes to turn the club around.

Best case scenario would see him invite usmanov to team up with him and pump some serious money into the team.

Problem is unless he has 100% control he won't do anything, i think thats what he said sometime ago.

[Letters]

I don't think anything will change with him. You can put money on the pattern our season will follow. The only thing unique about this season has been the exceptionally pathetic start.

We need to change almost everything we do, our transfer policy, wage structure, tactics, Manager, players, Board...etc.

And this is why although I voted yes I'm not convinced that changing Wenger for another manager in and of itself will necessarily make things better. It may actually make things worse. The idea that things couldn't get worse is laughable. We are still 4th (it's a bloody miracle we are, says a lot about Chelsea and Liverpool and we're a RvP injury away from proper mid-table). But we are. There is far more room for further decline and a lot more at the club needs to change than just the manager. The point is now, and this is the reason I voted yes, we have far less to lose, we need to do something. I don't buy into this idea that Wenger is some bumbling idiot and anyone could come in and do better, but I don't think he's able to turn things around and it's worth a try. Whether anyone else can turn things around with the current board in charge is highly debatable.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

And this is why although I voted yes I'm not convinced that changing Wenger for another manager in and of itself will necessarily make things better. It may actually make things worse. The idea that things couldn't get worse is laughable. We are still 4th (it's a bloody miracle we are, says a lot about Chelsea and Liverpool and we're a RvP injury away from proper mid-table). But we are. There is far more room for further decline and a lot more at the club needs to change than just the manager. The point is now, and this is the reason I voted yes, we have far less to lose, we need to do something. I don't buy into this idea that Wenger is some bumbling idiot and anyone could come in and do better, but I don't think he's able to turn things around and it's worth a try. Whether anyone else can turn things around with the current board in charge is highly debatable.

Totally agree

[Grebbo]

I think people are over analysing.

It is very simple.

We have worse players now than before. That is why we are shit. Wenger is the same manager now as he was in 1998.

What made Wenger great was spotting talent, style of play and fitness. The trouble is that everyone has caught up. Teams like Wigan play good football and have a world wide scouting network.

Wenger's faults are the same now as they've always been. He has no tactics and isn't a motivator - just look at what those great teams we had did in Europe - nothing.

It is time for change as Wenger's qualities are no longer unique and his faults are badly damaging the team.

We need a motivator and a tactician. The scouting network, style of play and fitness (pah) isn't going to go when Wenger goes.

[Lord Nelson]

no

I know where you are coming from Ollie, you can see the pain in Arsene Wengers face when we lose! I actually feel sorry for our once great Manager! But he should go at the end of the season so he is not remembered for failure! Thanks for the great memories Arsene!

[Power n Glory]

And this is why although I voted yes I'm not convinced that changing Wenger for another manager in and of itself will necessarily make things better. It may actually make things worse. The idea that things couldn't get worse is laughable. We are still 4th (it's a bloody miracle we are, says a lot about Chelsea and Liverpool and we're a RvP injury away from proper mid-table). But we are. There is far more room for further decline and a lot more at the club needs to change than just the manager. The point is now, and this is the reason I voted yes, we have far less to lose, we need to do something. I don't buy into this idea that Wenger is some bumbling idiot and anyone could come in and do better, but I don't think he's able to turn things around and it's worth a try. Whether anyone else can turn things around with the current board in charge is highly debatable.

'Would you prefer to get one shot in the head or five to the chest and bleed to death' - Moneyball.

Under Wenger, we are bleeding to death. We keep going on like this and we will continue to haemorrhage quality players and the condition of the squad will continue to deteriorate. He should have gone ages ago and all those times where we've had these debates, people kept on saying one more season and this is what it has led to. We've lost too much and now down to the bare bones in quality. Two or three years ago, I'd say a new manager would have inherited a good squad, but not now. A change in management could have resulted in a season or two outside of the top four but once the new guy has made the squad his own and brought in a few players, we'd probably be back in the hunt. I can't imagine the Board allowing us to slip down the table if Wenger got the sack. If the top four is their standard then I'd imagine they'd work to maintain that standard. But if we drop out and we continue on like this then we're in trouble.

Our current squad is in serious trouble. We're going to lose a lot of players next season and whoever inherits this team has their work cut out for them. Dropping at of the top four now and losing more key players leaves us in tough position. We'd probably struggle to attract a top manager and top players. The Board should been paying attention. There at fault for not acting earlier and putting Wenger out of his misery. Instead, we're going through a very painful process and it's going to take a lot to recover from this.

[Globalgunner]

I am probably foremost amongst the Wenger out brigade and have been probably since 2004. Wehger has good qualities but many that are not compatible with high achievement. Foremost he is not a great motivator, secondly he sucks at tactics. both terrible flaws for a leader of men taking them to war which in essence is what football is. However his greatest single defect is misplaced pride. He thinks he knows best and no mass of evidence to the contrary will make him think otherwise. Repeated failure never makes him shake the belief that success is just around the corner and all that is needed is patience and perseverance. This is epitomised in our play where we do the same thing for 90 mins untill the ref blows and the other side has nicked it 1 nil. He cannot inspire players to be better than they are because they see no reason to. Just follow Arsenes instructions, they think to themselves, and no matter the result he then cannot blame you for the outcome. Hence the stasgnation of players like Walcott who has no lateral thinking. The non progrssion of Djourou who is a worse player than when he joined us about 10 yrs ago. The retrogression of Rosicky who once possessed Europes finest shot but is now a journeyman, all hustle and bustle but no end product. The lack of determination and desire in the team is so evident and once it doesnt work out for them in 60 mins you can see the resignation set in. We indulge our players shortcomings and they all believe like Wenger that each game is one with 3 possible outcomes, all with an equal probability.

Contrast this with the Spuds. I loathe them as much as anyone but you cannnot deny that they are always seeking to improve. They take risks, quickly reassess their mistakes and change strategy. How many 1st team players have been bought and sold by them in the last 10 years I would probably guess 100. whereas for us it is likely less than half that, They buy, test and quickly get rid and buy again, while we coddle our failures and keep hoping for the best. We have the worst collection of keepers in the EPL and if not for 1 we would still be playing any of Mannone, Almunia et al. Senderos who we all agreed was shit was so promising before he joined us and was ruined and in 18 months at Fulham is now better than he ever was. playing a blinder against us at the cottage.

The common denominator is the manager who seeks not to improve the players but coaches them into a fixed system. making then in autobots who repeat the same play regardless of the opposition. The club existed before Wenger and will do so and thrive without him. We should thank him and show him the door. Anyother top european club would certainly have done so.

[fakeyank]

So because the likes of you and Zimm and ACH think he should leave the rest that don't are deluded or dumbasses or a joke. Are we not alllowed freedom of speech or should we be under your dictatorship because you say so. I voted yes he should go, But i don't think those that want hm to stay are deluded, see them more as being loyal to him which their allowed too.

If you want people to treat you better don't post like a 10 year old boy, who is in a huff because he never got the Ben 10 cards he wanted.

Charlie telling me I post like a 10 year old? :lol:

It truly is my demise! :rose:

Coming to the point, I see those fans as deluded because they cant see facts straight! And more importantly its my opinion, when I call AW a cock, thats my opinion, when I call fans who back him deluded, thats mine as well. Just like how quite a few think I act like a 10 yr old kid and post like one, thats their opinion. I sure am very spoilt but one thing I know is that I fucking love this club!

[LDG]

Charlie telling me I post like a 10 year old? :lol:It truly is my demise! :rose:Coming to the point, I see those fans as deluded because they cant see facts straight! And more importantly its my opinion, when I call AW a cock, thats my opinion, when I call fans who back him deluded, thats mine as well. Just like how quite a few think I act like a 10 yr old kid and post like one, thats their opinion. I sure am very spoilt but one thing I know is that I fucking love this club! It's not delusion. It's sentiment. I love AW because I love Arsenal. He's just as much a gooner now as us fans. He loes the club too. You can see that despite his mistakes. That's why it's not black and white. Logic dictates he's on his way, but passion and love for someone who has bought us such good times, history and enjoyment makes it so difficult to let go. Like george graham before him, there is an undoubted bond between club, manager and fanbase. It's difficult to accept for me personally....that, and i still believe he's got something to offer this club. He's the only one left that still carries the arsenal tradition....

[hymppi]

lads, it's not about fan-loyalty anymore, AW has served his purpose with us. of which i thank him greatly.
the old man has lost the mojo. well, a few years ago, really. but i gave him some time.
he hasn't corrected the visible flaws in squad and tactics.
au revoir.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

lads, it's not about fan-loyalty anymore, AW has served his purpose with us. of which i thank him greatly.
the old man has lost the mojo. well, a few years ago, really. but i gave him some time.
he hasn't corrected the visible flaws in squad and tactics.
au revoir.

In yours and Mine Opionins don't mean its everyone elses.

[hymppi]

In yours and Mine Opionins don't mean its everyone elses.
yeah.
i think my loyalty goes to the club. not solely to arsene. (r.i.p.)

[Letters]

I sure am very spoilt but one thing I know is that I fucking love this club!

As does Wenger. You can accuse him of many things but not caring about winning and not caring about Arsenal is not fair.
Which, combined with the good times he brought us, is why personal insults aimed at him are, IMO, out of line. And they add nothing to your arguments. If anything they detract from them which is a pity because your opinions are not unreasonable when stripped of the hysteria.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I am probably foremost amongst the Wenger out brigade and have been probably since 2004.

Was this just before we went the entire League Season unbeaten, or after?

[Dennis Bendtner]

Wenger out brigade in 2004. :haha:

[Globalgunner]

So going unbeaten in 2004 means a job for life i see. Repeated failures with titles within reach with 2 months to go before and after that watershed season, failures in CL UEFA final s even the damn CC. This is the reason why 10 years from now we will be singing the same jeremaid. We love Wenger... we went a whole season unbeaten with him. This is the same team that could have won the treble that season but got dumped out by the mighty Wayne Bridge.

[Cripps_orig]

Wenger should have gone in 2004. Not for the reasons he gives but in retirement cos he had taken this team as far as he can and his legendary status would be invincible.

And with a certain Jose Mouinho leaving Porto that summer and us being the champions, he'd have jumped at the chance to come here and we'd have won it all

[Xhaka Can’t]

So going unbeaten in 2004 means a job for life i see. Repeated failures with titles within reach with 2 months to go before and after that watershed season, failures in CL UEFA final s even the damn CC. This is the reason why 10 years from now we will be singing the same jeremaid. We love Wenger... we went a whole season unbeaten with him. This is the same team that could have won the treble that season but got dumped out by the mighty Wayne Bridge.

No.

You said you wanted him out in 2004.

So , I ask, did you arrive at that conclusion before or after we went unbeaten?

[Syn]

GW: Do not respond to the above. You are better than that.


edit: at cripps

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger should have gone in 2004. Not for the reasons he gives but in retirement cos he had taken this team as far as he can and his legendary status would be invincible.

And with a certain Jose Mouinho leaving Porto that summer and us being the champions, he'd have jumped at the chance to come here and we'd have won it all

For once i agree with you.

[Syn]

:haha:

[Cripps_orig]

For once i agree with you.Well it makes sense

[Dennis Bendtner]

So going unbeaten in 2004 means a job for life i see. Repeated failures with titles within reach with 2 months to go before and after that watershed season, failures in CL UEFA final s even the damn CC. This is the reason why 10 years from now we will be singing the same jeremaid. We love Wenger... we went a whole season unbeaten with him. This is the same team that could have won the treble that season but got dumped out by the mighty Wayne Bridge.

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt6/Triangler/ColinFarrell.gif

[Globalgunner]

No.

You said you wanted him out in 2004.

So , I ask, did you arrive at that conclusion before or after we went unbeaten?
A smart person should not require an answer to an obvious question. His shortcomings were evident even bnefore 2005. Any rational person , i think would trade the unbeaten season for a CL cup.

[Xhaka Can’t]

A smart person should not require an answer to an obvious question. His shortcomings were evident even bnefore 2005. Any rational person , i think would trade the unbeaten season for a CL cup.

I'd have LOVED to hear you call for him to go in 2004, here (if it had existed then), in the pub, at a match, ANYWHERE.

I want him gone, have done for years....but....2004?!?!? The most charitable of fans would have laughed in your face.

[Globalgunner]

To each his own. in 2004 we cocked up in the CL.....again. Strange that some fans think going unbeaten is just as good. No doubt the cup for that looks just like the big cup

[Xhaka Can’t]

To each his own. in 2004 we cocked up in the CL.....again. Strange that some fans think going unbeaten is just as good. No doubt the cup for that looks just like the big cup

It was such an achievement, the League specially commissioned a Cup for it.


And yes. It was fucking great.

Wenger out in 2004. :haha:

Why not in 98?

[Globalgunner]

Why ever?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES,

I'll be dammed if i watch another Arsenal game this season with this guy in charge and those useless players we have.

No need for him to stay we have nout to loose anymore

BY AW Thanks for the memories.

[KSE Comedy Club]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES,

I'll be dammed if i watch another Arsenal game this season with this guy in charge and those useless players we have.

No need for him to stay we have nout to loose anymore

BY AW Thanks for the memories.

That has to be your best post ever!:gp:

[Gubby Allen]

If he goes now, he's left us in a worse state than when he took us on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If he goes now, he's left us in a worse state than when he took us on.

If you're part of the crowd that has pocketed half a billion pounds, that clearly is not the case.

[Dennis Bendtner]

To each his own. in 2004 we cocked up in the CL.....again. Strange that some fans think going unbeaten is just as good. No doubt the cup for that looks just like the big cup

Ha ha ha. Why can't you accept you made a rather silly statement? No one's stopping you wanting Wenger to go.

[hymppi]

if he doesn't go now, he'll later on leave us in a worse state than we are now.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If he goes now, he's left us in a worse state than when he took us on.

When he took over we were in a worse state, Bruce Left sunderland in a a worse state. Another manager can come in and get us winning again.

Time to get pep in tbh

[cheesy bites]

Yes. The only thing in my mind that would sway me to say no would be finding a replacement.

Wenger's finished. Thank you very much, but there's the door.

[Gubby Allen]

When he took over we were in a worse state, Bruce Left sunderland in a a worse state. Another manager can come in and get us winning again.

Time to get pep in tbh

We'd won ample trophies in the 6 years leading up to him coming. We've won **** all in the last 6.

We had the basis of a phenomenal back 5 still there, plenty of other decent players, internationals, Parlour, Wright, Bergkamp.

What's he left us with now? A striker who would be perfectly justified in pissing off in the summer, a goal keeper who might be quite good and only one proven, genuinely talented youngster after a decade & 100 attempts - and he might not play again this season.

[Globalgunner]

Ha ha ha. Why can't you accept you made a rather silly statement? No one's stopping you wanting Wenger to go.

Now that really is a silly statement.

I think today we can see that it really has been downhill all the way literally since then.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We'd won ample trophies in the 6 years leading up to him coming. We've won **** all in the last 6.

We had the basis of a phenomenal back 5 still there, plenty of other decent players, internationals, Parlour, Wright, Bergkamp.

What's he left us with now? A striker who would be perfectly justified in pissing off in the summer, a goal keeper who might be quite good and only one proven, genuinely talented youngster after a decade & 100 attempts - and he might not play again this season.

OX is deffo not playing this season can see wenger wanting to protect him, well we have nothing left to lose, don't care if we don't get 4th the players won't try now.

I agree we had the basis when AW came, but if he went now a new manager can come in now acess the situation, see how much funds he really has and what he will need to do.

He will have 6 months to sort out what we need, instead of one if wenger goes end of the season.

[Marc Overmars]

I'm not even sure a case for the defence exists for him anymore.

[Joker]

I don't see how anyone can continue to defend him.

[Dennis Bendtner]

That we spend zilch and make profits off good players leaving every summer? Unless you are 100% sure he is sitting on a shitload of available cash, I am not sure how you can say there is no defence.

No recycled jokes about Arsenal's defence plskthx.

[Gubby Allen]

I keep hearing these comments from everyone how "you can see how much it is hurting Wenger" or "you can sense his frustration"

Can you?

Does he really look anymore hurt or frustrated than McCarthy did in the games before he went? Bruce look frustrated & hurt all season. He doesn't look remotely different from any other manager at any other club, who loses as many games as they win.

Nor does standing there with your arms outstretched and moaning to the 4th official, 60 times match show too much hurt.

[Keith]

Sorry guys, this isn't the fault of Wenger. The quality just isn't out there to improve our squad. If the right quality was available, he would snap it up.

Sebastian Larsson Birmingham Sunderland Free 29/06/2011
Scott Parker West Ham United Tottenham Hotspur £6,000,000 31/08/2011
Demba Ba West Ham United Newcastle United Free 09/06/2011
David Vaughan Blackpool Sunderland Free 06/07/2011
Danny Graham Watford Swansea City £3,500,000 13/06/2011
Rafael Van Der Vaart Real Madrid Tottenham Hotspur £8,000,000 31/08/10

[Munchies]

Over the years on GW, there have been numerous threads on transfer targets who we should sign. Most of us could easily see the problems in the squad, and those problems have still not been addressed till this day. We've been crying out for good centre backs , a world class striker, and good attacking wingers. For instance, players being mentioned many times : VDV before he went to Hamburg, Kompany before he went to City , Juan Mata (should have just stumped up that extra £5 mill or so, all those wages being wasted on dead wood can amount to that difference) , Scott Parker (the world class DM we've been craving since Flamini left).

Nothing is going to change if it currently stays as it is, Wenger waited until the LAST DAY of the transfer market, when we all KNEW CESC/Nasri would leave. He only acted because we got smashed 8-2 , would he have bought if it was a narrow 1-0 loss ?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Sorry guys, this isn't the fault of Wenger. The quality just isn't out there to improve our squad. If the right quality was available, he would snap it up.

Sebastian Larsson Birmingham Sunderland Free 29/06/2011
Scott Parker West Ham United Tottenham Hotspur £6,000,000 31/08/2011
Demba Ba West Ham United Newcastle United Free 09/06/2011
David Vaughan Blackpool Sunderland Free 06/07/2011
Danny Graham Watford Swansea City £3,500,000 13/06/2011
Rafael Van Der Vaart Real Madrid Tottenham Hotspur £8,000,000 31/08/10

Not sure at the time How Danny Graham or Vaughn would have helped us at all.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't see how anyone can continue to defend him.

I'll defend him in principle if the plan is to try and heap 100% responsibility on him. If he goes as part of the luxury package that sees his suited and booted mates run out of it too, then fine. But if he goes as a way to buy those rats more time, long may he stay.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Now that really is a silly statement.

I think today we can see that it really has been downhill all the way literally since then.

You said you wanted Wenger out from 2004.

The year we went undefeated in the League, you felt you wanted him out.

You made a ridiculously silly statement. Recognise that and move on.

[Dennis Bendtner]

If all these available, low-price players are so much better than the ones we bought and, how are we 4th?

There might be a bit of facetiousness in that. I think there is a point there and that there is an unreasonableness when discussing these issues. It is going completely on Wenger's back without acknowledgement of certain facts - i.e. expenditure. There is a website - http://www.transferleague.co.uk/ - 20th in net expenditure since 2006. Why is this so readily overlooked on here?

That's why I find it ironic on here now that those willing to give Wenger the slightest leeway are called fanatics. I don't think there is balance to the criticism now.

[Keith]

Not sure at the time How Danny Graham or Vaughn would have helped us at all.

Graham has a cracking record, 10 goals in 23 games.

Chamakh has 8 in 37.

Wiki stats. Our scouts are in the conference finding Jenkinson but missed someone who scored 1 in 3 for Watford.

My point was that £10m a year would have improved the team, if we had done that continually and brought in quality then we wouldn't be where we are today. The team looks lost at times, there is no plan B, the play is so slow and isn't the "beautiful" attacking play people appear to think we play.

[Syn]

If all these available, low-price players are so much better than the ones we bought and, how are we 4th?

There might be a bit of facetiousness in that. I think there is a point there and that there is an unreasonableness when discussing these issues. It is going completely on Wenger's back without acknowledgement of certain facts - i.e. expenditure. There is a website - http://www.transferleague.co.uk/ - 20th in net expenditure since 2006. Why is this so readily overlooked on here?

Liverpool fans were having heart attacks about how 'little' Benitez was given. Arsenal fans laugh at Niall Quinn when he goes off on one about our spending...

The difference between 4th and 12th is Robin Van Persie. I fully accept that we don't spend much relative to our sales. But quantity-wise, we have spent. And the Park, Diaby, Gibbs, Chamakh, Arshavin and quite a few others that never play are not sitting on their arses for free. This has been a severe mismanagement of funds and we're about to hand Djourou a new contract. It's ridiculous. If a new manager with some common sense can look at that from a fresh perspective - from the same perspective that Petit has - and also looks to sort out the injury problems we've been having (the no.1 problem at the club) then great. We've fucked Wilshere up (Arsene has admitted the setback was avoidable) and we've definitely fucked Rosicky over - which is why we'll keep handing him contracts out of guilt. The whole thing's a mess and needs new leadership...even if he can't spend much money.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

i used the word fanatic perhaps a bit overzealously, but what you have to realise is not how much or little money wenger has to spend, it's the lack of mental strength, fight, desire shown by the players when their backs are against the wall and it's the lack of flexibility and tactical awareness that is shown by the manager. It's so predictable we hit the wall at the same time every season, and I believe the same thing would happen if both Wenger and the board were willing to spend more in the transfer market, he's run out of ideas......and i think frankly the players that have lost form and confidence and don't put the effort in like Arshavin being the key example are a reflection of the stagnation under this manager.



If all these available, low-price players are so much better than the ones we bought and, how are we 4th?

There might be a bit of facetiousness in that. I think there is a point there and that there is an unreasonableness when discussing these issues. It is going completely on Wenger's back without acknowledgement of certain facts - i.e. expenditure. There is a website - http://www.transferleague.co.uk/ - 20th in net expenditure since 2006. Why is this so readily overlooked on here?

That's why I find it ironic on here now that those willing to give Wenger the slightest leeway are called fanatics. I don't think there is balance to the criticism now.

[Gubby Allen]

The difference between 4th and 12th is Robin Van Persie. I fully accept that we don't spend much relative to our sales. But quantity-wise, we have spent. And the Park, Diaby, Gibbs, Chamakh, Arshavin and quite a few others that never play are not sitting on their arses for free. This has been a severe mismanagement of funds and we're about to hand Djourou a new contract. It's ridiculous. If a new manager with some common sense can look at that from a fresh perspective - from the same perspective that Petit has - and also looks to sort out the injury problems we've been having (the no.1 problem at the club) then great. We've fucked Wilshere up (Arsene has admitted the setback was avoidable) and we've definitely fucked Rosicky over - which is why we'll keep handing him contracts out of guilt. The whole thing's a mess and needs new leadership...even if he can't spend much money.

Diaby has accrued something like 15-20 million in wages in his time here. On a per-game basis of full 90 minutes, the return has been abysmal.

[Keith]

Show the door
1Manuel ALMUNIA
21Lukasz FABIANSKI
4Per MERTESACKER
18Sebastien SQUILLACI
20Johan DJOUROU
25Carl JENKINSON
2Abou DIABY
7Tomas ROSICKY
23Andrey ARSHAVIN
30Yossi BENAYOUN
9Ju-Young PARK
27 GERVINHO
29Marouane CHAMAKH
14Theo WALCOTT
11Carlos VELA
24Vito MANNONE
52Nicklas BENDTNER
DENILSON

Perhaps it is form
16Aaron RAMSEY

Keep
13Wojciech SZCZESNY
3Bacary SAGNA
5Thomas VERMAELEN
6Laurent KOSCIELNY
11Andre SANTOS
28Kieran GIBBS
8Mikel ARTETA
17Alex SONG
19Jack WILSHERE
39Francis COQUELIN
10Robin VAN PERSIE
15Alex OXLADE-CHAMBERLAIN
26Emmanuel FRIMPONG

I can't name 11 & subs from our squad!

No idea
31Ryo MIYAICHI
46Henri LANSBURY
Joel CAMPBELL

[Dennis Bendtner]

The difference between 4th and 12th is Robin Van Persie. I fully accept that we don't spend much relative to our sales. But quantity-wise, we have spent. And the Park, Diaby, Gibbs, Chamakh, Arshavin and quite a few others that never play are not sitting on their arses for free. This has been a severe mismanagement of funds and we're about to hand Djourou a new contract. It's ridiculous. If a new manager with some common sense can look at that from a fresh perspective - from the same perspective that Petit has - and also looks to sort out the injury problems we've been having (the no.1 problem at the club) then great. We've fucked Wilshere up (Arsene has admitted the setback was avoidable) and we've definitely fucked Rosicky over - which is why we'll keep handing him contracts out of guilt. The whole thing's a mess and needs new leadership...even if he can't spend much money.

It's a fair post and I can't refute much of the detail. I've felt throughout though that all managers make mistakes, and I'm quite sure a lot of them have made similar ones to Wenger. The difference being that they have the comfort blankets of expensive, good players to help mask them. Added to the security a lot of clubs have that their best talent won't be sold every summer. Do we?

I don't know how good this Hazard is. Hypothetically, with all other circumstances remaining the same, if we'd got him for £25m in the summer. If he's as good as the hype (and Wenger) suggests, would it not have improved our position? Just by virtue of having one better player in attack.

I don't disagree that Wenger's made errors. But my point was there is a lack of recognition of extremes. We are 20th (out of 20 current PL teams) in terms of net spend since 2006. How ridiculous is that?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Graham has a cracking record, 10 goals in 23 games.

Chamakh has 8 in 37.

Wiki stats. Our scouts are in the conference finding Jenkinson but missed someone who scored 1 in 3 for Watford.

My point was that £10m a year would have improved the team, if we had done that continually and brought in quality then we wouldn't be where we are today. The team looks lost at times, there is no plan B, the play is so slow and isn't the "beautiful" attacking play people appear to think we play.

1 he has less pressure playing for Swansea then he owuld if he came here, he'd not score as many goals either.
2 had we signed him at time, no Arsenal fan would have been happy. Its easier to say it in hindsight.

No one here wanted Ba when he wasat west ham, had we signed him in the summer people would have moaned another french africam etc.


As for VDV we never needed him we had cesc, he'd have not really played. You feel had he gone this summer we may have got him.

[notwist]

We are consistently shown in the top 5 richest clubs in the world (on one index we are third). We have the most expensive ticket prices and sell out 60,000 for every home match. Plenty of people with tickets don't even bother to turn up.

Should Wenger go? Well let's put it this way - if a commercial company performed like this for 2-3 years they would be looking for a new CEO. After 7 years nobody would believe that nothing had changed,

To keep doing the same thing and expect a different result is a sign of madness - Einstein.

This really is a no-brainer now whatever way you look at it. Are we STILL going to be having this debate in February 2013? Crazy, absolutely crazy.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We are consistently shown in the top 5 richest clubs in the world (on one index we are third). We have the most expensive ticket prices and sell out 60,000 for every home match. Plenty of people with tickets don't even bother to turn up.

Should Wenger go? Well let's put it this way - if a commercial company performed like this for 2-3 years they would be looking for a new CEO. After 7 years nobody would believe that nothing had changed,

To keep doing the same thing and expect a different result is a sign of madness - Einstein.

This really is a no-brainer now whatever way you look at it. Are we STILL going to be having this debate in February 2013? Crazy, absolutely crazy.

Would that not mean stan would be out then?

[Globalgunner]

You said you wanted Wenger out from 2004.

The year we went undefeated in the League, you felt you wanted him out.

You made a ridiculously silly statement. Recognise that and move on.

Why because vyou bsaid so. Winning the league is nothing wee havent done before, Madrid have sacked mangars that have won leagues and CL. Yet 2004 is held up as the pinnacle of football. I wanted him out after we bottled the CL. How does yuours o anyones opinion mattter more than any other. Maybe I was being prescient maybe you cannot accept that Wenger is an abject failure now. Or are you running a Gaddafi show here now, that brooks no other opinions

[notwist]

Oddly enough, it's the manager who makes the decisions at a football club, but nice try.


Would that not mean stan would be out then?

[Syn]

It's a fair post and I can't refute much of the detail. I've felt throughout though that all managers make mistakes, and I'm quite sure a lot of them have made similar ones to Wenger. The difference being that they have the comfort blankets of expensive, good players to help mask them. Do we?

I don't know how good this Hazard is. Hypothetically, with all other circumstances remaining the same, if we'd got him for £25m in the summer. If he's as good as the hype (and Wenger) suggests, would it not have improved our position? Just by virtue of having one better player in attack.

I don't disagree that Wenger's made errors. But my point was there is a lack of recognition of extremes. We are 20th (out of 20 current PL teams) in terms of net spend since 2006. How ridiculous is that?

It's a good point about Hazard. I said that Van Persie was the difference between 4th and 12th and although, obviously, buying another ready-made Van Persie is out of question (simply because there isn't anyone available with that kind of quality), a couple of RVP-lites even could propel us up the table a bit. Maybe. I see the same fundamental flaws happening but if you're willing to spend enough you can fill the cracks.

You're right that you probably cannot put the money situation aside and look to analyse Wenger's performance objectively. It does complicate things - I don't believe Arsene is refusing to spend some kind of 'warchest' available like some say. But I just don't think his management even with the limited resources he has at his disposal has been good enough. That's what it comes down to. And if you believe that, you also believe that a good (not necessarily top) manager could improve things. The predictability about things is suffocating and the club desperately needs a change.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Oddly enough, it's the manager who makes the decisions at a football club, but nice try.

But he's the CEO of the club is he not.

[notwist]

But he's the CEO of the club is he not.

I think some people might find you a little tedious. No offence.

[GP]

But he's the CEO of the club is he not.

Stan? No.

Gazidis is.

[Syn]

Why because vyou bsaid so. Winning the league is nothing wee havent done before, Madrid have sacked mangars that have won leagues and CL. Yet 2004 is held up as the pinnacle of football. I wanted him out after we bottled the CL. How does yuours o anyones opinion mattter more than any other. Maybe I was being prescient maybe you cannot accept that Wenger is an abject failure now. Or are you running a Gaddafi show here now, that brooks no other opinions

It's not nice to keep debating the semantics of such a silly comment but lets just put it this way:

Lets just imagine for a second that Arsene Wenger was sacked in July 2004. Would you have been happy the next day?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think some people might find you a little tedious. No offence.

You said the CEO would get sacked did you not who is the CEO at this club? I was not trying to clever i was assuming you meant the CEO.

However would they still sack the CEO if he/she made them serious profit each year.

[Globalgunner]

It's not nice to keep debating the semantics of such a silly comment but lets just put it this way:

Lets just imagine for a second that Arsene Wenger was sacked in July 2004. Would you have been happy the next day?

Er...Yes. I assume this would not have led to the world not turning or a more competent manager showing up. I think a novice shoed up at stamford Bridge the same year.

[Dennis Bendtner]

It's a good point about Hazard. I said that Van Persie was the difference between 4th and 12th and although, obviously, buying another ready-made Van Persie is out of question (simply because there isn't anyone available with that kind of quality), a couple of RVP-lites even could propel us up the table a bit. Maybe. I see the same fundamental flaws happening but if you're willing to spend enough you can fill the cracks.

You're right that you probably cannot put the money situation aside and look to analyse Wenger's performance objectively. It does complicate things - I don't believe Arsene is refusing to spend some kind of 'warchest' available like some say. But I just don't think his management even with the limited resources he has at his disposal has been good enough. That's what it comes down to. And if you believe that, you also believe that a good (not necessarily top) manager could improve things. The predictability about things is suffocating and the club desperately needs a change.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't want to reduce it purely to a financial argument. But the correlation between transfer expenditure, wage expenditure and league performance is such that I don't believe it should be overlooked as often as it is, just to put more on the manager's head. And that is relevant to your point about Wenger's management standard. Especially given the extremes we're dealing with here. I would still maintain that the alternatives being speculated on here are bigged up past their abilities. But I understand you being jaded. It's a poor situation however you look at it.

[Syn]

Er...Yes. I assume this would not have led to the world not turning or a more competent manager showing up. I think a novice shoed up at stamford Bridge the same year.

You're such a liar. :lol:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's a fair post and I can't refute much of the detail. I've felt throughout though that all managers make mistakes, and I'm quite sure a lot of them have made similar ones to Wenger. The difference being that they have the comfort blankets of expensive, good players to help mask them. Added to the security a lot of clubs have that their best talent won't be sold every summer. Do we?

I don't know how good this Hazard is. Hypothetically, with all other circumstances remaining the same, if we'd got him for £25m in the summer. If he's as good as the hype (and Wenger) suggests, would it not have improved our position? Just by virtue of having one better player in attack.

I don't disagree that Wenger's made errors. But my point was there is a lack of recognition of extremes. We are 20th (out of 20 current PL teams) in terms of net spend since 2006. How ridiculous is that?


So true, how many players do you think we'd need?

[Dennis Bendtner]

So true, how many players do you think we'd need?

Who knows? It's not quantity that's an issue. But I made the Hazard point because of the obviously substandard players supporting Van Persie right now. A really good central midfielder replacing Fabregas and we'd be controlling more games. You could probably make the point for a few positions.

[Gubby Allen]

I don't disagree that Wenger's made errors. But my point was there is a lack of recognition of extremes. We are 20th (out of 20 current PL teams) in terms of net spend since 2006. How ridiculous is that?

Did I read that table right? Villa & Sunderland have spent twice as much as us in the last 5 years, Bolton more, Fulham the same.

But then - Boro and West Ham have both spent 20 odd million more than us - Brum & Pompey the same (must catch the back end of 'Arry's deals).

I don't doubt the table but cannot see how Middlesboro have spent £103 million on players since 2006 and us only 85. Who the **** did they buy?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Funny how you weren't speaking up about it earlier. Did you share your desire for him to leave back in 2004.

If you did, what reaction did you get?

I want Wenger out, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard of anyone thinking they'd like rid in 2004.

I brook many opinions - but yours in this instant is 'out there' and one I've never heard expressed before anywhere.


Why because vyou bsaid so. Winning the league is nothing wee havent done before, Madrid have sacked mangars that have won leagues and CL. Yet 2004 is held up as the pinnacle of football. I wanted him out after we bottled the CL. How does yuours o anyones opinion mattter more than any other. Maybe I was being prescient maybe you cannot accept that Wenger is an abject failure now. Or are you running a Gaddafi show here now, that brooks no other opinions

[Dennis Bendtner]

Did I read that table right? Villa & Sunderland have spent twice as much as us in the last 5 years, Bolton more, Fulham the same.

But then - Boro and West Ham have both spent 20 odd million more than us - Brum & Pompey the same (must catch the back end of 'Arry's deals).

I don't doubt the table but cannot see how Middlesboro have spent £103 million on players since 2006 and us only 85. Who the **** did they buy?

The Middlesbrough thing looks ropey. No idea. Must admit I didn't look specifically at the figures. But it appears they may have botched a few. You'd be alright to doubt the table to be fair. I'd still make a point along the same lines, but obviously not as well reinforced.

[Marc Overmars]

On a related sub-topic, for those who want him out, when did you move past the point of no return?

For me it was when we bottled the NLD at home last year. I felt that to throw away another lead in a game of that magnitude was just unforgivable - especially given as it had already happened 2 years earlier in the same fixture. I knew for sure then that the manager had built a team who simply could not be trusted at all.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I wanted him gone before but the point of no return came during the August 2010 transfer window.