Wenger Out?

[Mr. Lahey]

problem is it will never happen die hard fans will always show up to watch this team regardless. We have those who said they would to the bin bag protest, seem to bottle that (unless it was media shite). All booing does is effect the team nothing else. Even protests won't do much as long as the money is coming in they won't care if we make arses or ourselves chanting Wenger out repeatedly.

sadly i think you are right.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If Wenger was managing in Spain, Italy or Germany, I think he'd have been sacked by now.

Possibly - but to suggest ANY other Club which is what the post is in reply to is different from cherry picking from the elite teams in the elite Leagues which is what I presume you are doing.

[Power n Glory]

It doesn't prove your point at all - in fact it makes your point pointless as there is no criteria to support your 'point'.

Most coaches don't have such long careers as Wenger and Fergie because two or three years of failure often results in the sack. If this were another club, he wouldn't have made it to 15+ years.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He doesn't mean it like that, what he's saying is that Wenger's a football man at the end of the day, not an accountant, so his obsession with the financial "bottom line" is unhealthy from a football point of view.

I get that but as a manager his Job is to manage the team, and make sure all team affairs are looked after. IMO its the coach who should be motivating the team or what is he here for.

Look at the clubs in Europe all have Coach's same with rugby and Us sports. The way AW has managed the team imo has been fine the wayhe has coach them as been Awful and that's the difference.

He's a good manager but a poor coach.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Most coaches don't have such long careers as Wenger and Fergie because two or three years of failure often results in the sack. If this were another club, he wouldn't have made it to 15+ years.

OK, name the Clubs in England that would have sacked him.

My list:

Manchester United
Chelsea

That is all.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If Wenger was managing in Spain, Italy or Germany, I think he'd have been sacked by now.

Because in Europe you have to be a good coach not manager thats the diffrence.

[Letters]

Possibly - but to suggest ANY other Club which is what the post is in reply to is different from cherry picking from the elite teams in the elite Leagues which is what I presume you are doing.

I think any other team at our level would have sacked Wenger.
But the boards of most other clubs at our level judge success by trophy count, not bank balance.
With Wenger it's a maddening combination for me of being impressed with how year after year he's kept us up there (and I think some people underestimate how hard that is, how many other clubs have consistently? Only ManYoo and they have the best manager around), but we've failed to finish the job when trophies have been within reach.
I've always felt we're more likely to get worse post-Wenger than better, at times this season there didn't seem much to lose but right now I'm feeling good about the team again so I think we have something worth keeping. Another poor run and I'll change my mind again. It's been one of those seasons.

[Power n Glory]

Possibly - but to suggest ANY other Club which is what the post is in reply to is different from cherry picking from the elite teams in the elite Leagues which is what I presume you are doing.

I made it clear from the start that I was talking about the top elite clubs. Makes no sense comparing us to anything else.

[Power n Glory]

OK, name the Clubs in England that would have sacked him.

My list:

Manchester United
Chelsea

That is all.

What is it about top four your not getting here? I'm not talking about West Brom and Sunderland here. I'm talking about teams that are in the hunt for silverware every year or have realistic ambitions of winning silverware. Come on now, why you acting silly and tetchy for?

You can put Liverpool on that list as well.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I made it clear from the start that I was talking about the top elite clubs. Makes no sense comparing us to anything else.

You quoted my post where I was clearly responding to Joker.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think any other team at our level would have sacked Wenger.
But the boards of most other clubs at our level judge success by trophy count, not bank balance.
With Wenger it's a maddening combination for me of being impressed with how year after year he's kept us up there (and I think some people underestimate how hard that is, how many other clubs have consistently? Only ManYoo and they have the best manager around), but we've failed to finish the job when trophies have been within reach.
I've always felt we're more likely to get worse post-Wenger than better, at times this season there didn't seem much to lose but right now I'm feeling good about the team again so I think we have something worth keeping. Another poor run and I'll change my mind again. It's been one of those seasons.

Yep and if their target was to win tropies and he failed rightly so. Did not/does not seem to be the target of our board.

[Dennis Bendtner]

Liverpool would have been a bit dim to sack Wenger. Look at the fruitloop charged with getting them into the top four now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

What is it about top four your not getting here? I'm not talking about West Brom and Sunderland here. I'm talking about teams that are in the hunt for silverware every year or have realistic ambitions of winning silverware. Come on now, why you acting silly and tetchy for?

You can put Liverpool on that list as well.

Eh?

You are the one that clearly does not get it.

Name the teams.

Would Liverpool or Tottenham have sacked him? Two teams/organisations that want to build a new stadium - but while talking about it for years have between them not managed to disturb a single blade of grass.

Man City may have done, but only now because they have unlimited riches.

I'm not being tetchy - I'm asking you to name all these teams that would have sacked Wenger - because there aren't many.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think it's worse when a manager doesn't strive to win trophies. He's a sportsman at the end of the day and that should be his ultimate goal.

Which is why I think he should go - but lets not overegg the pudding here thinking there are are a tonne of Owners of other teams scratching their heads wondering why Wenger has not been sacked.

[Power n Glory]

You quoted my post where I was clearly responding to Joker.

No, I think wires are getting crossed here. I was responded to Dennis Bendtner with this.

Why is that myth? It's very rare to find a manager that has been at the helm of a top 4 team for over 15 years and won nothing in the last 6/7 years of his career. Most managers don't get a chance to build team after team at this level unless you keep winning silverware

Then you jumped and said there is nothing to base this argument on because there are only two managers that have lasted so long at the top. But I'm saying most managers never carve out such long careers as Wenger and Fergie because they usually get sacked within 2/3 years of a trophyless season which is why Wenger's situation is so rare.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No, I think wires are getting crossed here. I was responded to Dennis Bendtner with this.

Why is that myth? It's very rare to find a manager that has been at the helm of a top 4 team for over 15 years and won nothing in the last 6/7 years of his career. Most managers don't get a chance to build team after team at this level unless you keep winning silverware

Then you jumped and said there is nothing to base this argument on because there are only two managers that have lasted so long at the top. But I'm saying most managers never carve out such long careers as Wenger and Fergie because they usually get sacked within 2/3 years of a trophyless season which is why Wenger's situation is so rare.

That is not all that makes it rare though. He was also tasked with taking the team through a transition period where the Club was clearly restricted in the transfer market as it undertook the biggest capital infrastructure project ever undertaken by any Club. At least a couple of years slack had to be warranted during this period.

[latewinner]

I want us to win the champions league or have a hope of winning it and while Wenger is manager neither will happen. I look at Liverpool and think we waste a spot each year as they'd have more chance of winning.
I'm enjoying the season now because we're chasing Tottenham. If it was only a race for fourth I wouldn't care and don't see what's changed, we've seen good wins before after embarrassments, when written off, when fourth is the only achievement left and the pressure has gone. We've had 3 seasons of this why can't some people accept the pattern

[Xhaka Can’t]

Anyway, I'm off to bed now.

[Power n Glory]

Eh?

You are the one that clearly does not get it.

Name the teams.

Would Liverpool or Tottenham have sacked him? Two teams/organisations that want to build a new stadium - but while talking about it for years have between them not managed to disturb a single blade of grass.

Man City may have done, but only now because they have unlimited riches.

I'm not being tetchy - I'm asking you to name all these teams that would have sacked Wenger - because there aren't many.

Jeez have you been drinking? There aren't many because we're talking about the top four in the elite leagues. Liverpool sacked Rafa and Spurs aren't a top four team. This isn't just about England. I'm talking about the clubs around Europe that are on a similar level to us.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I want us to win the champions league or have a hope of winning it and while Wenger is manager neither will happen. I look at Liverpool and think we waste a spot each year as they'd have more chance of winning.
I'm enjoying the season now because we're chasing Tottenham. If it was only a race for fourth I wouldn't care and don't see what's changed, we've seen good wins before after embarrassments, when written off, when fourth is the only achievement left and the pressure has gone. We've had 3 seasons of this why can't some people accept the pattern

I doubt 1 Arsenal fan Would disagree with you there, but the bottom line is regardless of how we think he is meeting his employers targets and that all that matters at the end of the day, sadly.

If they don't sack him next season and he does what he needs to should fans boo him from game 1 or get behind the team they love.

[latewinner]

I doubt 1 Arsenal fan Would disagree with you there, but the bottom line is regardless of how we think he is meeting his employers targets and that all that matters at the end of the day, sadly.

If they don't sack him next season and he does what he needs to should fans boo him from game 1 or get behind the team they love.

That makes it worse . Wenger has the power to demand what he wants but goes along with them. He's holding us back not them. To me that's just cowardly he has the resources and position to compete but embraces the fact there is money but he doesn't use it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

That makes it worse . Wenger has the power to demand what he wants but goes along with them. He's holding us back not them. To me that's just cowardly he has the resources and position to compete but embraces the fact there is money but he doesn't use it.

True, but why has this been allowed to happen? too much politics at board level so they let him run the club while they sort out their bs. they are all happy to make money etc. If they wanted too they could take away that power in an instant by sacking him but they won't seems happy not to win things are owners.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Jeez have you been drinking? There aren't many because we're talking about the top four in the elite leagues. Liverpool sacked Rafa and Spurs aren't a top four team. This isn't just about England. I'm talking about the clubs around Europe that are on a similar level to us.

As I stated earlier - my point is about people saying ANY team would have sacked him. You later brought in the Top 4 criteria - which is in itsel ambiguous because the top 4 in the EPL and most other leagues has been fluid.

[Coney]

As I stated earlier - my point is about people saying ANY team would have sacked him. You later brought in the Top 4 criteria - which is in itsel ambiguous because the top 4 in the EPL and most other leagues has been fluid.

Sure is. Even Chelsea were in the top four once.

[Power n Glory]

Sure is. Even Chelsea were in the top four once.

And there manager was sacked for that reason, which is my point.

[Letters]

And there manager was sacked for that reason, which is my point.

Which is why they're now sweeping all before them...
Other clubs would have sacked Wenger, other clubs haven't always benefited from sacking their manager though. It's misguided to think that things will definitely get better when Wenger goes and it's laughable that some people seem to think things can't get any worse. Some people have forgotten just how rubbish Arsenal have been at times in the not too distant past.

[Power n Glory]

As I stated earlier - my point is about people saying ANY team would have sacked him. You later brought in the Top 4 criteria - which is in itsel ambiguous because the top 4 in the EPL and most other leagues has been fluid.


This is getting silly and we have to use some common sense here. This is getting bogged down in use of words and semantics and distracts from the overall point. As seen with Chelsea, they have sacked their boss for a brief period outside of the top four and a run of bad results. When I say top four, or a team on our level, I mean teams with the ability to compete for the league, domestic trophies and European in one season. Of course I'm not comparing us to Stoke or Sunderland.

But even those clubs have strict standards in terms of what they feel a club of their size should achieve each season. We've seen managers that have brought teams up from the Championship to the Prem and sacked the next season if it looks like they're about to go back down to the Championship. Wasn't Rafa sacked for dropping outside of the Top 4? Wasn't Jol sacked because Spurs couldn't get into the Top 4?

The Board have shown a lot of patience with Wenger and I understand the criticism from fans. It shows a lack of ambition, but I can also understand why they're looking for stability. But Wenger really should have won more given that he's been here for so long and able to compete for 4 different trophies each season. The league can be forgiven, but he should have won more cups over the last few years. Two league cup finals, one champions league final and a bunch of semi finals. He's too bloody humble.

[Letters]

Wasn't Jol sacked because Spurs couldn't get into the Top 4?

He was certainly sacked after he got them finishing 5th twice in a tow (their best PL finish to that point).
The season after he sacked him they finished 11th.

[GP]

The board haven't 'shown a lot of patience with Wenger', they actively support the work he's doing.

There's no chance of him being sacked.

[Flavs]

Good for u, now on with ur Wenger 'arse' sucking pal

:lol:

Actually I am one of the ones who want him out but thanks for the effort

Uhuh

[Xhaka Can’t]

This is getting silly and we have to use some common sense here. This is getting bogged down in use of words and semantics and distracts from the overall point. As seen with Chelsea, they have sacked their boss for a brief period outside of the top four and a run of bad results. When I say top four, or a team on our level, I mean teams with the ability to compete for the league, domestic trophies and European in one season. Of course I'm not comparing us to Stoke or Sunderland.

But even those clubs have strict standards in terms of what they feel a club of their size should achieve each season. We've seen managers that have brought teams up from the Championship to the Prem and sacked the next season if it looks like they're about to go back down to the Championship. Wasn't Rafa sacked for dropping outside of the Top 4? Wasn't Jol sacked because Spurs couldn't get into the Top 4?

The Board have shown a lot of patience with Wenger and I understand the criticism from fans. It shows a lack of ambition, but I can also understand why they're looking for stability. But Wenger really should have won more given that he's been here for so long and able to compete for 4 different trophies each season. The league can be forgiven, but he should have won more cups over the last few years. Two league cup finals, one champions league final and a bunch of semi finals. He's too bloody humble.

The problem is, he is meeting the standards the Board have set. It is crystal clear they are happy with him. In fairness to them and Wenger, they have had to set and meet criteria that has been unique to Arsenal in that a team good enough to reach the ECL in the run up and aftermath of the stadium project was required.

The problem as I see it, is that neither the Board nor Wenger have moved on from that mindset. Fans like myself that tolerated that strategy have now moved on and want a team built that maximises the resources the Club has at it's disposal. That this is not happening and unlikely to happen with Wenger in charge is why I want a change of Manager. But until the Board move on in the criteria they set, there will be no change and I fear the only way we will see a material change is when we finish outside the top 4. And by in large, failure to finish in the top 4 has been the main impetus fir managerial change at other clubs with a realistic aspiration of ECL qualification.

[Power n Glory]

He was certainly sacked after he got them finishing 5th twice in a tow (their best PL finish to that point).
The season after he sacked him they finished 11th.

I hear your point, Letters and I’m not saying that we’ll automatically win the league if we sack Wenger. But this is stagnation. Spurs sacked Jol, went through the growing pains and now look better under Harry. They made it to the Champs League in one season and could possibly be there again this season. With us, something has to change for things to get better and for me, I think Wenger’s policies and philosophy is hampering us.

[Ernesto]

I think that, to some degree, the board are taking advantage of Gooners' patience. By NOT making a song and dance about a poor run of results, or following through with any planned protests, they (the board) automatically assume that all things are rosy in the world of Arsenal.

Look at Wolves fans FFS! They got their wish in hounding out Mick McCarthy from the club, and now, 3 results later, they want the fat cats at the top ('Scouse Mafia' :D) out an'all!

[Letters]

I hear your point, Letters and I’m not saying that we’ll automatically win the league if we sack Wenger. But this is stagnation. Spurs sacked Jol, went through the growing pains and now look better under Harry. They made it to the Champs League in one season and could possibly be there again this season. With us, something has to change for things to get better and for me, I think Wenger’s policies and philosophy is hampering us.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable view and stagnation is exactly what it's been.
There's been no clear, straight line decline. There have been good moments and bad but the net result has been no real, consistent progress or catastrophic decline.
I do see signs of hope right now but I'm aware that there have been plenty of false dawns before.
I don't know any more. If we keep our good run going and finish 4th (or even 3rd) then I'll probably be in the "one more year" camp. Again! If we slump again then my patience will have run out.

[Kano]

Which is why they're now sweeping all before them...
Other clubs would have sacked Wenger, other clubs haven't always benefited from sacking their manager though. It's misguided to think that things will definitely get better when Wenger goes and it's laughable that some people seem to think things can't get any worse. Some people have forgotten just how rubbish Arsenal have been at times in the not too distant past.

so how do you gauge the right time for him to leave? after he's fucked up and we drop out of the top four? do we keep him in charge indefinitely?

what better time to do it than when we are stable club, with a decent squad with good potential. he has shown repeatedly with similar squads that he is no longer able to improve results in general.

we will never know what will happen until it actually does, so we can sit on our hands scared of what may happen or be bold enough to test the waters - which has to happen at some point anyway.

[Alpha]

so how do you gauge the right time for him to leave? after he's fucked up and we drop out of the top four? do we keep him in charge indefinitely?

what better time to do it than when we are stable club, with a decent squad with good potential. he has shown repeatedly with similar squads that he is no longer able to improve results in general.

we will never know what will happen until it actually does, so we can sit on our hands scared of what may happen or be bold enough to test the waters - which has to happen at some point anyway.

I think Wenger has proved he can keep Arsenal up with a limited found available .What we need is not a change of manager but a change of attitude for both manager and the board . They must understand our youth policy may not produce the expected result even in a long term . We may buy young talents and make them stars and yet lose them to other teams offering them more money and more realistic opportunities for trophies . We need to balance the youth system with some good and experience players who will serve as role model to these young talents and making Arsenal an attractive team for any player young or experienced . Wenger has the ability to do it .He done it in the past . He just need someone to convince him that his youth policy alone is a failure . David dein could be the man to make wenger reconsider his obsession with young players . But at the moment Arsene is still the man to move Arsenal forward . If he gets rid of the dead woods ( Chamack , Bendter , Squillaci , Djourou ,Almunia , Denilson ..etc) and adds just 3 quality players 1 striker ( Podolski ) , 1 good central midfielder ( Gotze , Marin , Hamsik , Hasard , Gourcuff, Eriksen ,Inler ) and 1 defender ( Vertoghen) Arsenal would become a strong team capable of challenging for every competition .

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The poll results are interesting and shocking at the same time.

[Cripps_orig]

GW in being fickle shocker

[Olivier's xmas twist]

GW in being fickle shocker

Modern day footie fans are fickle anyway so its a not a surprise.

[Kano]

I think Wenger has proved he can keep Arsenal up with a limited found available .What we need is not a change of manager but a change of attitude for both manager and the board . They must understand our youth policy may not produce the expected result even in a long term . We may buy young talents and make them stars and yet lose them to other teams offering them more money and more realistic opportunities for trophies . We need to balance the youth system with some good and experience players who will serve as role model to these young talents and making Arsenal an attractive team for any player young or experienced . Wenger has the ability to do it .He done it in the past . He just need someone to convince him that his youth policy alone is a failure . David dein could be the man to make wenger reconsider his obsession with young players . But at the moment Arsene is still the man to move Arsenal forward . If he gets rid of the dead woods ( Chamack , Bendter , Squillaci , Djourou ,Almunia , Denilson ..etc) and adds just 3 quality players 1 striker ( Podolski ) , 1 good central midfielder ( Gotze , Marin , Hamsik , Hasard , Gourcuff, Eriksen ,Inler ) and 1 defender ( Vertoghen) Arsenal would become a strong team capable of challenging for every competition .

he can achieve the minimum expected of the club, he has done for a while now but the potential is much larger. how many years do you keep saying ‘one more year’. even if was winning everything in sight, at some point he would have to leave (fergie the perfect example) and the club has to look for a manager that can sustain that level.

the youth project, wages etc still do not take away from the fact that wenger makes repeated mistakes on the pitch – something that has nothing to do with anything off the field. there is a chance that another manager may not perform as well but it is just as likely that they would perform as well and perhaps better.

how long can a top club remain just doing the same thing year on year and how many times does the team under wenger have to repeat the same cycle before something new is tried? of course i am talking purely from a football perspective and the off field politics may well impact on the manager situation but the only concrete evidence we have is what we actually see on the pitch and it is clear after another collapse in January that it’s a cycle that can’t be broken under wenger anymore. sad but true.

[Letters]

we will never know what will happen until it actually does, so we can sit on our hands scared of what may happen or be bold enough to test the waters - which has to happen at some point anyway.

Well sure. I guess the issue is what do we have to lose. If we were playing crap football and mid-table then I'd say not much. Right now (and I appreciate that this has not been so all season) we're playing well, showing some fight and seem to be making some progress. Whether that continues remains to be seen.

[Letters]

GW in being fickle shocker

As fickle as football fans are I don't think anyone has gone from "Wenger is a bumbling idiot" to "Wenger's the greatest genius in football history" because of a few good results. The poll is still quite mixed, far more so than it would have been a couple of years ago when most still backed Wenger. People's mood has shifted quite a lot this season as we've had ups and downs.

[LDG]

Jeez have you been drinking?

:lol:

Are you pissed again

[Coney]

He was certainly sacked after he got them finishing 5th twice in a tow (their best PL finish to that point).
The season after he sacked him they finished 11th.

Maybe they're just masochists. I guess that's why they become spud supporters in the first place.



[Sadist and a masochist walking down the street. Masochist says to the sadist "Hit me". And the sadist says "No".)

[Cripps_orig]

As fickle as football fans are I don't think anyone has gone from "Wenger is a bumbling idiot" to "Wenger's the greatest genius in football history" because of a few good results. The poll is still quite mixed, far more so than it would have been a couple of years ago when most still backed Wenger. People's mood has shifted quite a lot this season as we've had ups and downs.What id like to know is who from the thread in the link below has changed their mind and why

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1206&page=24

[LDG]

Didn't change mine.

[Cripps_orig]

Neither did i.

But a few wins has clearly made some people change their mind.

Likewise there might be some who said no last time and want him out now. Doubt it but in the interest of fairness, i thought id put it in. These posters are also more than welcome to explain why they have changed their mind

[Alpha]

he can achieve the minimum expected of the club, he has done for a while now but the potential is much larger. how many years do you keep saying ‘one more year’. even if was winning everything in sight, at some point he would have to leave (fergie the perfect example) and the club has to look for a manager that can sustain that level.

the youth project, wages etc still do not take away from the fact that wenger makes repeated mistakes on the pitch – something that has nothing to do with anything off the field. there is a chance that another manager may not perform as well but it is just as likely that they would perform as well and perhaps better.

how long can a top club remain just doing the same thing year on year and how many times does the team under wenger have to repeat the same cycle before something new is tried? of course i am talking purely from a football perspective and the off field politics may well impact on the manager situation but the only concrete evidence we have is what we actually see on the pitch and it is clear after another collapse in January that it’s a cycle that can’t be broken under wenger anymore. sad but true.

Another question to consider is whether Wenger is holding Arsenal back or not . We can't speculate on what is behind closed doors as that is between Arsene and his Directors . Was Arsenal better off before the Wenger era ? Will Arsenal necessarily be much better if Wenger step down ? Will the new manager garantie succes and more achievement more than Wenger ? If we can get positive answers to all these issues , then yes sack Wenger .But it would be regrettable to take a hasty decision which will not work and make Arsenal a middle table team .

[Coney]

I did originally say it was time for him to go because of his failure to buy a striker in January, which gave the impression that the policy was not changing. I wanted positive signs of buying a known striker and perhaps others in the summer with a clearout of the dross. I don't know if it is pressure from RvP indicating that unless something happens in the transfer market, he might not sign, but Podolski looks to be happening and Wenger appears to have said there would be some departures - can't remember the exact quote but it was made a few weeks back - funny thing is that since then, the team has got off it's ass and fought. Surely no connection there? ... ... ... :unsure:

That is why my vote has changed. However, if nothing happens in the summer, then I will feel deceived. Again.

[LDG]

Neither did i.

But a few wins has clearly made some people change their mind.

Likewise there might be some who said no last time and want him out now. Doubt it but in the interest of fairness, i thought id put it in. These posters are also more than welcome to explain why they have changed their mind

So you're asking for people on the internet to be honest and open, admit that they may have been wrong??

:haha: :haha:

[Cripps_orig]

So you're asking for people on the internet to be honest and open, admit that they may have been wrong??

:haha: :haha:Why not? I'd do it. Its just that I've never been wrong

[Coney]

Why not? I'd do it. Its just that I've never been wrong

Changing your mind does not mean that you were wrong before. At any one time you make a judgement based on evidence at the time. In my case, because it is beginning to look as if Wenger might now be buying - Podolski, in this case, plus saying some players are going - then the analysis (for me) produces a different result.

[Marc Overmars]

I would like Arsene Wenger to leave because I believe the club stands a better chance of winning trophies without him.

[LDG]

Why not? I'd do it. Its just that I've never been wrong

:haha:

[Power n Glory]

I haven't changed my mind and it would take a good summer for me to change it.

[GP]

So you're asking for people on the internet to be honest and open, admit that they may have been wrong??

:haha: :haha:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Cripps_orig]

I haven't changed my mind and it would take a good summer for me to change it.Just a summer?

[LDG]

Just a summer?

S.A.D :good:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

S.A.D :good:

summer and dick?

[LDG]

summer and dick?

I think you've just answered the questions on your own mind there.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I think you've just answered the questions on your own mind there.What are your favourite things about London?

[LDG]

What are your favourite things about London?

No.

"What is my favourite thing?"

and

"What is my favourite thing?"

[latewinner]

What bothers me about our fans is we think Wenger's success is extraordinary for a 'club like us'. Now don't get me wrong three titles and four fa cups along with many second places and generally being 'up there' is an excellent achievement and and my best memories are from this period but was it something you never saw Arsenal achieving, really? We had a period of dominating english football once before, won a title in every decade since the first bar the 60's, one a double, and were the one of the four biggest and wealthiest english clubs for a long time.

The way some people belittle us and exalt Wenger you'd think Wenger done what he has at charlton, which would be remarkable for a club of their size and history. Had he won a european cup a first for our club and put us amongst the 'great' european clubs it would be different and buy him the reverence he has.

Take Tottenham with a lot less success they seem to have bigger expectations of their club than we do, always dreaming big no matter how crap they are, which is good. Why should our ambition be lower than theirs? Why must we be ever grateful to Wenger fo doing the job he was paid to do. Redknapp has brought them their best period in a long time and most of them will be happy to see him go to bring in someone to take them to a higher level. Their not next stuck on what he's done (far less than Wenger) but the opportunity he's provided for their club

Wenger has provided an opportunity for our club which I'll always be grateful for.
Our fans like to point out where we were before Wenger (won a league, cup winners cup, fa cup, league cup, in the space of six seasons before his arrival, finished 5th, bought Bergkamp ), where were Manchester United before Ferguson? Where were Liverpool before Shankly, success starts from somewhere and those clubs aren't stuck on what they used to be like and let it or anyone define their ambition which we are doing with Wenger

[Kano]

Another question to consider is whether Wenger is holding Arsenal back or not . We can't speculate on what is behind closed doors as that is between Arsene and his Directors . Was Arsenal better off before the Wenger era ? Will Arsenal necessarily be much better if Wenger step down ? Will the new manager garantie succes and more achievement more than Wenger ? If we can get positive answers to all these issues , then yes sack Wenger .But it would be regrettable to take a hasty decision which will not work and make Arsenal a middle table team .

well it's impossible to know what will come next, just like everything else. but to make an informed decision, you base it on previous and current performance. so when you keep going round in circles it makes sense to try something new.

all the off field stuff has nothing to do with the tactics, team selection and mental issues the team suffer far too much.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What id like to know is who from the thread in the link below has changed their mind and why

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1206&page=24

have not voted yet

[Cripps_orig]

have not voted yetWhat about now?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Would not say people are being fickle 18 less people have not voted from last time so in reality its samey samey more or less.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Voted the same way as last time.

But I have little faith things will change, so am just going to make the best of it by trying to get the best of the enjoyment where individual games produce some great moments.

[fakeyank]

Would not say people are being fickle 18 less people have not voted from last time so in reality its samey samey more or less.

No, its not. 4 more ppl voted for him and 22 votes against him are gone with the wind! Shows how fans are so easily fooled.

AW and the board cheating fans since 2006™

:bow:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No, its not. 4 more ppl voted for him and 22 votes against him are gone with the wind! Shows how fans are so easily fooled.

AW and the board cheating fans since 2006™

:bow:

:lol:

[Elreactor]

Still out of all competitions. Wait, well, still on the race for 4th place....

[Alpha]

well it's impossible to know what will come next, just like everything else. but to make an informed decision, you base it on previous and current performance. so when you keep going round in circles it makes sense to try something new.

all the off field stuff has nothing to do with the tactics, team selection and mental issues the team suffer far too much.
If the only reason to part with Wenger is to try something new without any assurance of success then I don't buy it . Arsenal is a big club going through a transitional period ( problems , lack of trophies..etc..) That can happen to any team before a revival . Chelsea spent 50 years without any major trophy , Man U was even relegated at a certain stage of their history . If we can get a better man to lead us to more succes ,I don't mind Arsene leaving . But I don't think there are too many out there who can manage Arsenal the Wenger way . As long as the Board are not ready to splash out cash then Wenger is still the man .

[Özim]

As someone has said we're out of all competitions (by February), for 6 years now we've failed to make the best of situations when well placed and every season the pattern is similar if not the same. I don't understand how people can think this will change, I've seen good runs at the end of a season before and all they've done is mask the problems that have been there for most of the season before that run.

If we do sign Podolski I'm not really sure if it's because we're half expecting RVP to go, doesn't he play in a similar role after all? We've heard about players not being for sale many times before but in the end they've gone so I take that with a pinch of salt.

If Wenger was at another club right now and he'd done what he has in the last 6 years we wouldn't go near him with a bargepole to manage us because he's kinda proven he can't achieve success these days.

[Cripps_orig]

No team has any assurances of success.

Only thing we are assured of is if Wenger stays then we will see the same shit over and over again til the day he goes. Seen it the last few years and we'll see it for a few more years yet. However if he goes then yes we might get worse, we might well do that. However we might also get better and as im a naturally optimistic guy, thats what i think will happen.

Point is, we are at a time where a risk has to be taken. If we settle for the shite we have now and yes it is shite always being the bridesmaid and never the bride then its only a matter of time before we go backwards.

As a great man once said, if we stand still, we go backwards

[Olivier's xmas twist]

As someone has said we're out of all competitions (by February), for 6 years now we've failed to make the best of situations when well placed and every season the pattern is similar if not the same. I don't understand how people can think this will change, I've seen good runs at the end of a season before and all they've done is mask the problems that have been there for most of the season before that run.

If we do sign Podolski I'm not really sure if it's because we're half expecting RVP to go, doesn't he play in a similar role after all? We've heard about players not being for sale many times before but in the end they've gone so I take that with a pinch of salt.

If Wenger was at another club right now and he'd done what he has in the last 6 years we wouldn't go near him with a bargepole to manage us because he's kinda proven he can't achieve success these days.

Very true and rightly so. But he has Achieved Success (yes not to me or you) but to those who matter the most his employers thats the problem. He has met their targets and in their eyes he has no failed.

If we had a Owner with ambition in the last 6 years do you think this would be allowed to happen. they should have given him a target of 2-3 years with PY annd thats all.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No team has any assurances of success.

Only thing we are assured of is if Wenger stays then we will see the same shit over and over again til the day he goes. Seen it the last few years and we'll see it for a few more years yet. However if he goes then yes we might get worse, we might well do that. However we might also get better and as im a naturally optimistic guy, thats what i think will happen.

Point is, we are at a time where a risk has to be taken. If we settle for the shite we have now and yes it is shite always being the bridesmaid and never the bride then its only a matter of time before we go backwards.

As a great man once said, if we stand still, we go backwards

Totally agree dude, now is the time to take that risk, The reason i want him out, has nothing do with trophies or spending big bucks. Its about not fixing the the problems we have. Like you say its gone on season after season same shite.

We going to get a new man sometime, might as well be now we have a solid base and let a new era begin.

We all know Wenger will leave one day anyway don't see why we can't take that risk now.

[Letters]

What bothers me about our fans is we think Wenger's success is extraordinary for a 'club like us'. Now don't get me wrong three titles and four fa cups along with many second places and generally being 'up there' is an excellent achievement and and my best memories are from this period but was it something you never saw Arsenal achieving, really?

Yes, really. We had a period of dominating English football once before. In the 1930s! It had been 60 years since then and while we'd always had trophies here and there the title in '89 was the first in 18 years and while we repeated it 2 years later by the mid-90s we were a very mid-table side who had some good Cup runs but never seriously looked like title contenders. So yes, winning 3 titles in 7 years and 2 of those being Double seasons (yes, we'd done it before but not for nearly 40 years and gave no indication of being able to repeat it although we were close in '91) was exceptional for the club in modern times.

Wenger can't live off that period of success forever of course and every season which goes by without a trophy more fans lose patience with him but to act like that period of success wasn't exceptional for our club is...well, it's just plain wrong. It was the best period since the 30s and not even Coney remembers that.

[Letters]

No team has any assurances of success.

Only thing we are assured of is if Wenger stays then we will see the same shit over and over again til the day he goes. Seen it the last few years and we'll see it for a few more years yet. However if he goes then yes we might get worse, we might well do that. However we might also get better and as im a naturally optimistic guy, thats what i think will happen.

Point is, we are at a time where a risk has to be taken. If we settle for the shite we have now and yes it is shite always being the bridesmaid and never the bride then its only a matter of time before we go backwards.

As a great man once said, if we stand still, we go backwards

What post would make a lot more sense if we were in mid-table right now as you predicted we'd be.

[Cripps_orig]

Totally agree dude, now is the time to take that risk, The reason i want him out, has nothing do with trophies or spending big bucks. Its about not fixing the the problems we have. Like you say its gone on season after season same shite.

We going to get a new man sometime, might as well be now we have a solid base and let a new era begin.

We all know Wenger will leave one day anyway don't see why we can't take that risk now.:goodpost:

[Cripps_orig]

What post would make a lot more sense if we were in mid-table right now as you predicted we'd be.RVP managed to stay fit and kept us in the running for top 4. Its a miracle he has and no one can predict miracles otherwise it wouldnt be a miracle.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

RVP managed to stay fit and kept us in the running for top 4. Its a miracle he has and no one can predict miracles otherwise it wouldnt be a miracle.

Very good post, makes me wanna change my username to 'Thank the gods for RVP'

[Letters]

Who signed RvP again?

[Cripps_orig]

Who signed RvP again?The good legendary Arsene Wenger

Not the dumbass in it for the money one we have now

[Letters]

Arsene Wenger

Exactly.

[Cripps_orig]

Exactly.The fact that you have to go all the way back to 2004 to find something good about Wenger pretty much says it all

[Letters]

And yet you were staunchly supporting him up until the tail end of last season, clearly you didn't think he'd done nothing good since 2004. But then I guess you thought turning on a sixpence and going from one extreme position to the opposite gave you better WUMming opportunities. I'll continue this debate with people who believe what they post.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

No one can dispute that AW 'had' an eye for spotting talent. However, a few seasons ago that eye got infected with cataract which has worsened as the seasons went by.

[Letters]

No one can dispute that AW 'had' an eye for spotting talent. However, a few seasons ago that eye got infected with cataract which has worsened as the seasons go by.

I'm not sure that's fair, it's just not as easy as it used to be when all the top clubs now have a worldwide scouting network. When Wenger came to us no-one knew the European or worldwide game like he did, now other clubs have caught up. He's certainly signed some duds but he did back in the day too. It's easier to overlook that when the trophies keep coming.

[Cripps_orig]

And yet you were staunchly supporting him up until the tail end of last season, clearly you didn't think he'd done nothing good since 2004. But then I guess you thought turning on a sixpence and going from one extreme position to the opposite gave you better WUMming opportunities. I'll continue this debate with people who believe what they post.End of 09/10 actually

The Wigan game.

Ive always said that.

Ah hiding behind the WUM thing when the debate has been lost. A classic Letters trait.

[Letters]

I'll continue this debate with people who believe what they post.

:gp:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I'm not sure that's fair, it's just not as easy as it used to be when all the top clubs now have a worldwide scouting network. When Wenger came to us no-one knew the European or worldwide game like he did, now other clubs have caught up. He's certainly signed some duds but he did back in the day too. It's easier to overlook that when the trophies keep coming.

Talk about not fair, look what we as fans have had to endure for the last 6 seasons.....I've been mocked ad nauseum by supporters of rivalling clubs both in the flesh and on forums about our empty trophy cabinet.

[Letters]

Talk about not fair, look what we as fans have had to endure for the last 6 seasons.....

Oh behave yourself. Endure? :rolleyes:

I've been going to games since about 1990 and I remember far worse seasons that this one - seasons where we've ended up winning a trophy but have been absolutely awful for most of the league campaign and it's been the most boring football imaginable. And I'm not old enough (well, I am, but I didn't take much interest) to remember the Don Howe era.

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest if ever there has been a manager who lives off reputation alone, it has to be Arsene Wenger. When we looked a serious doubt for the top 4, I still even read and heard pundits saying we'd be stupid to get rid of him and only he can make us great again etc. There seems to be this mythical aura around him, he is not talked about in the same vein as other managers who can be instantly fighting for their jobs at the first sign of bad form (ie. AVB).

People say no one is bigger than the club but the problem for us is that whether we like it or not, Wenger actually is. It's why some of us can't help but cling on by annually repeating the 'one more year' line. It's like we're stuck in a loveless marriage.

My issues don't stem from the lack of trophies alone, although we probably should have picked up a cup or 2 in recent years, but it's from the belief that when his teams get within touching distance of success or greatness, I'd bet my bottom dollar they won't pull through.

[Letters]

Do you think it's easy to keep a club in the top 4 then? How much money have Chelsea spent and they're struggling this year. To do it so consistently as Wenger has shouldn't be dismissed. Yes, we've crumbled when in touching distance of trophies far too often but I do see some sign that this lot have a bit more fight about them right now. But I thought that around about Christmas time when we'd pulled ourselves into the top 4 and then we slumped again so we'll see.

[Coney]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

:lol:

[Cripps_orig]

To be honest if ever there has been a manager who lives off reputation alone, it has to be Arsene Wenger. When we looked a serious doubt for the top 4, I still even read and heard pundits saying we'd be stupid to get rid of him and only he can make us great again etc. There seems to be this mythical aura around him, he is not talked about in the same vein as other managers who can be instantly fighting for their jobs at the first sign of bad form (ie. AVB).

People say no one is bigger than the club but the problem for us is that whether we like it or not, Wenger actually is. It's why some of us can't help but cling on by annually repeating the 'one more year' line. It's like we're stuck in a loveless marriage.

My issues don't stem from the lack of trophies alone, although we probably should have picked up a cup or 2 in recent years, but it's from the belief that when his teams get within touching distance of success or greatness, I'd bet my bottom dollar they won't pull through.This

The amount of times i read someone saying "look at what hes done" as a reason not to get rid was laughable. I looked at what hes done and what hes done is sackable in any clubs books with high ambitions.

[Marc Overmars]

Do you think it's easy to keep a club in the top 4 then? How much money have Chelsea spent and they're struggling this year. To do it so consistently as Wenger has shouldn't be dismissed. Yes, we've crumbled when in touching distance of trophies far too often but I do see some sign that this lot have a bit more fight about them right now. But I thought that around about Christmas time when we'd pulled ourselves into the top 4 and then we slumped again so we'll see.

He deserves full credit for keeping us in the top 4, we as fans need to decide whether we are happy with that being the height of our achievement. Yes that might be the remit of the board, but they're not the ones on the pitch who have consistently let the club down when they're tasked with competing for honours. Again, the trophies alone don't bother me as such, it's the fact that I feel we're unlikely to win one with Wenger again, and ultimatley for a club of our stature, resources, and hell, even playing ability as the last 4 games have shown, can't be good enough surely.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Talk about not fair, look what we as fans have had to endure for the last 6 seasons.....I've been mocked ad nauseum by supporters of rivalling clubs both in the flesh and on forums about our empty trophy cabinet.

Funny you say that until last season, i have been hearing fans going on about how we play the best football etc, The fans were not bothered We never won the CC or FA cup as they were "mickey mouse cups and clubs like Spurs and villa should win them". Fans were happy for us to be Barca light when it suited them. had we still be playing that good football this season i doubt most would be this upset.

So rival fans tease you, who gives a monkeys at the end of the day, that's why they are rival fans.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He deserves full credit for keeping us in the top 4, we as fans need to decide whether we are happy with that being the height of our achievement. Yes that might be the remit of the board, but they're not the ones on the pitch who have consistently let the club down when they're tasked with competing for honours. Again, the trophies alone don't bother me as such, it's the fact that I feel we're unlikely to win one with Wenger again, and ultimatley for a club of our stature, resources, and hell, even playing ability as the last 4 games have shown, can't be good enough surely.

Well if their happy with the way the club has been the last 5 years then they are. In their eyes we have been successful and no need to change it. If another manager did not win anything for years they would still be the same.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

So rival fans tease you, who gives a monkeys at the end of the day, that's why they are rival fans.

Yup they do and it sucks ass

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I may be one of the ones Cripps laughs at. .. I am very grateful for what Wenger has done and would say that he deserves to walk when he chooses but. . .there is a frustration inside me rhat wishes that he realises that time and does not choose the run the team/club into the ground like some Vegas addict who just thinks all he needs is one more roll of the dice.

Sure it may take a bit to achieve top four year in and year out, but SAF seems to do it with trophies to boot and we seem to do increasingly by the skin of our teeth. . , for me that is a sign that should be observed.

We may very well do it again this year and get third while we are at it. . .but is that Wengers doing. . .I hazard an answer and say of course in part but less in part than other years. I dont feel Wenger has the team where he wants them, more the team are stepping up, RvP has a fire that is roaring and the others around him are responding, maybe in an attempt to prove that they are the team he should consider sticking around with.

RvP too no doubt is thinking next year, and that more than every we need to build the squad, no doubt pleased with talk ofcearly arrivals, the fans do will be expecting that. There can be no excuse not to buy this summer, Jack coming back yes but plenty to replace. We cannot go into the new season with one striker and if we do, the signs of dissent were there, FY may get his wish of burning effergies and the like.

Am I saying does Wenger deserve another chance? Yes and no because he has done a lot for the club but those laurels have been rested on for too long now and what he seems to be doing now is more harm than good. If there is a chance he can change his stubborn ways then I will pass him the dice, buy now, buy quality and get rid of the dross, if he cant and doesnt see some of his ways are dated and have been sussed then it is time to move on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I may be one of the ones Cripps laughs at. ..

A normal, well adjusted and rational person?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I may be one of the ones Cripps laughs at. .. I am very grateful for what Wenger has done and would say that he deserves to walk when he chooses but. . .there is a frustration inside me rhat wishes that he realises that time and does not choose the run the team/club into the ground like some Vegas addict who just thinks all he needs is one more roll of the dice.

Sure it may take a bit to achieve top four year in and year out, but SAF seems to do it with trophies to boot and we seem to do increasingly by the skin of our teeth. . , for me that is a sign that should be observed.

We may very well do it again this year and get third while we are at it. . .but is that Wengers doing. . .I hazard an answer and say of course in part but less in part than other years. I dont feel Wenger has the team where he wants them, more the team are stepping up, RvP has a fire that is roaring and the others around him are responding, maybe in an attempt to prove that they are the team he should consider sticking around with.

RvP too no doubt is thinking next year, and that more than every we need to build the squad, no doubt pleased with talk ofcearly arrivals, the fans do will be expecting that. There can be no excuse not to buy this summer, Jack coming back yes but plenty to replace. We cannot go into the new season with one striker and if we do, the signs of dissent were there, FY may get his wish of burning effergies and the like.

Am I saying does Wenger deserve another chance? Yes and no because he has done a lot for the club but those laurels have been rested on for too long now and what he seems to be doing now is more harm than good. If there is a chance he can change his stubborn ways then I will pass him the dice, buy now, buy quality and get rid of the dross, if he cant and doesnt see some of his ways are dated and have been sussed then it is time to move on.

:gp:

Brilliant post JSAO

[fakeyank]

I may be one of the ones Cripps laughs at. .. I am very grateful for what Wenger has done and would say that he deserves to walk when he chooses but. . .there is a frustration inside me rhat wishes that he realises that time and does not choose the run the team/club into the ground like some Vegas addict who just thinks all he needs is one more roll of the dice.

Sure it may take a bit to achieve top four year in and year out, but SAF seems to do it with trophies to boot and we seem to do increasingly by the skin of our teeth. . , for me that is a sign that should be observed.

We may very well do it again this year and get third while we are at it. . .but is that Wengers doing. . .I hazard an answer and say of course in part but less in part than other years. I dont feel Wenger has the team where he wants them, more the team are stepping up, RvP has a fire that is roaring and the others around him are responding, maybe in an attempt to prove that they are the team he should consider sticking around with.

RvP too no doubt is thinking next year, and that more than every we need to build the squad, no doubt pleased with talk ofcearly arrivals, the fans do will be expecting that. There can be no excuse not to buy this summer, Jack coming back yes but plenty to replace. We cannot go into the new season with one striker and if we do, the signs of dissent were there, FY may get his wish of burning effergies and the like.

Am I saying does Wenger deserve another chance? Yes and no because he has done a lot for the club but those laurels have been rested on for too long now and what he seems to be doing now is more harm than good. If there is a chance he can change his stubborn ways then I will pass him the dice, buy now, buy quality and get rid of the dross, if he cant and doesnt see some of his ways are dated and have been sussed then it is time to move on.

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/07/10/arjun-singh-effigy-burn_QTp5v_18231.jpg

:cool:

[LDG]

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/07/10/arjun-singh-effigy-burn_QTp5v_18231.jpg

:cool:

Ahhh, family BBQ's at Cripps' place. The memories....

[GP]

Honour Killings :bow:

[Letters]

Honour Killings :bow:

Islam :bow:

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article587906.ece?

[Alpha]

After the Manchester teams debacle in mickey mouse champions league ( Europa league ) , them who were tipped favorites after investing so much money ,I wonder if people can't still see the wonderful work Wenger is doing with a limited fund . Yes we were kicked out of the real Champions's League but it was just unfortunate . We were very very close . If only RVP could have put that chance away .... If only Arshavin had stayed and came on instead of Chamack or Park when we were running out of steam ....If only Wilshere or Diaby or Ramsey were fit to replace Chamberlain instead of Chamack or Park , we could be talking different story .I still stick with Wenger . He is the only one at the moment for me . The media plays a big part in people 's opinion . Had Arsenal been out of Europa league , we could have heard everything there is : End of Arsenal , Wenger has lost the plot . Tottenham has overtaken Arsenal ...etc.. . But both United and City have not only kicked out but outplayed and outmuscled by respectively a spanish middle table team and a portuguese team not really among the favorites in Europe . Money talks they say but not this time . Wenger proves again you don't need to invest heavily to have a great team .

[GP]

Islam :bow:

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article587906.ece?

Easily my favourite Cult.

[Marc Overmars]

After the Manchester teams debacle in mickey mouse champions league ( Europa league ) , them who were tipped favorites after investing so much money ,I wonder if people can't still see the wonderful work Wenger is doing with a limited fund . Yes we were kicked out of the real Champions's League but it was just unfortunate . We were very very close . If only RVP could have put that chance away .... If only Arshavin had stayed and came on instead of Chamack or Park when we were running out of steam ....If only Wilshere or Diaby or Ramsey were fit to replace Chamberlain instead of Chamack or Park , we could be talking different story .I still stick with Wenger . He is the only one at the moment for me . The media plays a big part in people 's opinion . Had Arsenal been out of Europa league , we could have heard everything there is : End of Arsenal , Wenger has lost the plot . Tottenham has overtaken Arsenal ...etc.. . But both United and City have not only kicked out but outplayed and outmuscled by respectively a spanish middle table team and a portuguese team not really among the favorites in Europe . Money talks they say but not this time . Wenger proves again you don't need to invest heavily to have a great team .

Well they've certainly looked shite in Europe this year, but one of them will win the league and that is ultimatley where we want to be isn't it? Competing at the top for the title.

[Alpha]

Well they've certainly looked shite in Europe this year, but one of them will win the league and that is ultimatley where we want to be isn't it? Competing at the top for the title.
Well said ,Overmars . One of them will win the league . I bet you didn't say both of them will win it . So , one of them will be empty-handed like ourselves after investing so much . But what I reckon , we are not far away .We had the baddest start and yet we are just about to leapfrog Tottenham . What a remarquable come-back ? Yes we want to win the league . Our turn will definitely come . Chamberlain , Coquelin , Wilshere , Miyaichi , Sczesney ,will mature very soon . Add to that crop RVP , Koscielny , Vermalean , Song , Sagna ..and probably Podolski and Gotze ( who knows? ) the league will be our in a couple of years . What is sure ,the so called favorites are anot running away from us even with thier money .

[Marc Overmars]

Well said ,Overmars . One of them will win the league . I bet you didn't say both of them will win it . So , one of them will be empty-handed like ourselves after investing so much . But what I reckon , we are not far away .We had the baddest start and yet we are just about to leapfrog Tottenham . What a remarquable come-back ? Yes we want to win the league . Our turn will definitely come . Chamberlain , Coquelin , Wilshere , Miyaichi , Sczesney ,will mature very soon . Add to that crop RVP , Koscielny , Vermalean , Song , Sagna ..and probably Podolski and Gotze ( who knows? ) the league will be our in a couple of years . What is sure ,the so called favorites are anot running away from us even with thier money .

One of them will be left empty handed yes, but to harp back to my earlier point, it's not entirely down to trophies. If we were up there competing with them I'd be a lot more optimistic about our chances. We're 15 odd points or whatever behind them for a reason.

[Alpha]

One of them will be left empty handed yes, but to harp back to my earlier point, it's not entirely down to trophies. If we were up there competing with them I'd be a lot more optimistic about our chances. We're 15 odd points or whatever behind them for a reason.
I think we are up competing with them mate bar this season we didn't do ourselves any favor . That was down to the departure of key plays such as Cesc and Nasir and the unwillingness of Wenger to replace them on time . I dont City were close to win it last season . The odds are just an indication of what the media and some " experts " think about the outcome of the league . It is far from being a Gospel . They were saying we will finish out of the top 5 . I know there is still work to do to achieve something .But aien't we making them eat their words atm ? Aren't they trying to change their assessments to accomodate to the reality we have shown them black on white ?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

One of them will be left empty handed yes, but to harp back to my earlier point, it's not entirely down to trophies. If we were up there competing with them I'd be a lot more optimistic about our chances. We're 15 odd points or whatever behind them for a reason.

True and last season we were competing its only because we did not replace the key players we lost we fell short or we be right up there this season.

[Cripps_orig]

I may be one of the ones Cripps laughs at. .. I am very grateful for what Wenger has done and would say that he deserves to walk when he chooses but. . .there is a frustration inside me rhat wishes that he realises that time and does not choose the run the team/club into the ground like some Vegas addict who just thinks all he needs is one more roll of the dice.

Sure it may take a bit to achieve top four year in and year out, but SAF seems to do it with trophies to boot and we seem to do increasingly by the skin of our teeth. . , for me that is a sign that should be observed.

We may very well do it again this year and get third while we are at it. . .but is that Wengers doing. . .I hazard an answer and say of course in part but less in part than other years. I dont feel Wenger has the team where he wants them, more the team are stepping up, RvP has a fire that is roaring and the others around him are responding, maybe in an attempt to prove that they are the team he should consider sticking around with.

RvP too no doubt is thinking next year, and that more than every we need to build the squad, no doubt pleased with talk ofcearly arrivals, the fans do will be expecting that. There can be no excuse not to buy this summer, Jack coming back yes but plenty to replace. We cannot go into the new season with one striker and if we do, the signs of dissent were there, FY may get his wish of burning effergies and the like.

Am I saying does Wenger deserve another chance? Yes and no because he has done a lot for the club but those laurels have been rested on for too long now and what he seems to be doing now is more harm than good. If there is a chance he can change his stubborn ways then I will pass him the dice, buy now, buy quality and get rid of the dross, if he cant and doesnt see some of his ways are dated and have been sussed then it is time to move on.May be?

[Kano]

I think we are up competing with them mate bar this season we didn't do ourselves any favor . That was down to the departure of key plays such as Cesc and Nasir and the unwillingness of Wenger to replace them on time . I dont City were close to win it last season . The odds are just an indication of what the media and some " experts " think about the outcome of the league . It is far from being a Gospel . They were saying we will finish out of the top 5 . I know there is still work to do to achieve something .But aien't we making them eat their words atm ? Aren't they trying to change their assessments to accomodate to the reality we have shown them black on white ?

08/09 - 18 points
09/10 - 11 points
10/11 - 12 points
11/12 - 15 points (currently)

we are and haven't been any nowhere near competing for the title.

[Alpha]

08/09 - 18 points
09/10 - 11 points
10/11 - 12 points
11/12 - 15 points (currently)

we are and haven't been any nowhere near competing for the title.
Bar this season we always fucked up with 10 or 8 games remaining . that's competing I think .

[Marc Overmars]

Bar this season we always fucked up with 10 or 8 games remaining . that's competing I think .

If only a season was 28 games long we'd be sorted then!

[Kano]

Bar this season we always fucked up with 10 or 8 games remaining . that's competing I think .

and when it happens every year, in a cycle, then it's a problem.

and not one likely to be addressed by the manager

[Alpha]

and when it happens every year, in a cycle, then it's a problem.

and not one likely to be addressed by the manager

Well I think if Per , Arteta , Santos, even Benayoun to a lesser extent were brought in earlier and given enough time to bed and Wilshere was not injured that long and a striker of Podolski caliber were signed we could have been a different proposition . I believe something is being done to make change but sometimes Wenger's stubbornness gets the upper hand . Things will get better pretty soon .

[Alpha]

If only a season was 28 games long we'd be sorted then!
But we are much closer than those who get outrun from day one . At least we have some excuses and no one can count us out before April except this season .

[Syn]

If we finish 10 points above Chelsea or Tottenham from now, would we not say they were a threat for 3rd/4th place? In 08/09 many of us were bricking it when Villa were clear of us. We bought Arshavin and ended up finishing 10 points above them. Were they not challengers for 4th that season?

Come on, lets not take the self-loathing too far. Some seasons - like this one - we're obviously nowhere near being title challengers. But in 09-10, and 10-11, I think you could say we were challenging for the title but, typically, couldn't sustain it for the final stages.

[Kano]

But we are much closer than those who get outrun from day one . At least we have some excuses and no one can count us out before April except this season .

well they can because it repeats itself every year so you know what is coming next - total collapse.

everything is if, if, if.

if's don't matter anymore.

we need concrete changes, not to continue living on a wish

[Coney]

08/09 - 18 points
09/10 - 11 points
10/11 - 12 points
11/12 - 15 points (currently)

we are and haven't been any nowhere near competing for the title.


Bar this season we always fucked up with 10 or 8 games remaining . that's competing I think .

And that is not the case this year - we have not fucked up with 10 games remaining. We actually fucked up in August. If you consider how the team has been performing since then and look at the perfomance since August/September, had we been doing that from the start, then we would be challenging for the title. The resilience shown by the team recently, when in previous years we showed a total collapse, is a change for the better. If we can maintain this mentality - we'll know that over the next month or two - and can beef up with Podolski and a couple of others over the summer, then we are in with a decent shout next season and I would then be reluctant to see the end of Wenger this time round. (If we don't end up with Podolski and ditch some of the dross, then Wenger must really go as we then have definite stagnation. However, I am optimistic).

[Cripps_orig]

We also fucked up in January tbh

[latewinner]

To be honest if ever there has been a manager who lives off reputation alone, it has to be Arsene Wenger. When we looked a serious doubt for the top 4, I still even read and heard pundits saying we'd be stupid to get rid of him and only he can make us great again etc. There seems to be this mythical aura around him, he is not talked about in the same vein as other managers who can be instantly fighting for their jobs at the first sign of bad form (ie. AVB).

People say no one is bigger than the club but the problem for us is that whether we like it or not, Wenger actually is. It's why some of us can't help but cling on by annually repeating the 'one more year' line. It's like we're stuck in a loveless marriage.

My issues don't stem from the lack of trophies alone, although we probably should have picked up a cup or 2 in recent years, but it's from the belief that when his teams get within touching distance of success or greatness, I'd bet my bottom dollar they won't pull through.


You're right. Ferguson doesn't even have Wenger's untouchable status. Wenger's position is unique. Many Arsenal just doesn't have a big view of their club, Wenger's time was unimaginable for them and we owe him everything. And it grates on me when that attitude comes from the media and other fans as if we're so ungrateful to question his methods.

Last line is true Wenger's a winner but at the same time he's a loser, it's weird, he can't reach greatness which is ultimately winning the champions league, or just managing successive league titles , there's a mental problem with his teams that stops them going all the way.

[Alpha]

And that is not the case this year - we have not fucked up with 10 games remaining. We actually fucked up in August. If you consider how the team has been performing since then and look at the perfomance since August/September, had we been doing that from the start, then we would be challenging for the title. The resilience shown by the team recently, when in previous years we showed a total collapse, is a change for the better. If we can maintain this mentality - we'll know that over the next month or two - and can beef up with Podolski and a couple of others over the summer, then we are in with a decent shout next season and I would then be reluctant to see the end of Wenger this time round. (If we don't end up with Podolski and ditch some of the dross, then Wenger must really go as we then have definite stagnation. However, I am optimistic).
That's true . At least we should give wenger the benefit of doubt until his fuck his chance up . we were soft in previous seasons but this time we have shown some mental resilience to come back from behind and win tough games .I wouldn't rule out Wenger for an unknown and untested manager to take the job .

[Kano]

I wouldn't rule out Wenger for an unknown and untested manager to take the job .
why not now? what difference would it make if he left now or end of next season? at some point he has to leave anyway, so why not now.

[Marc Overmars]

That's true . At least we should give wenger the benefit of doubt until his fuck his chance up . we were soft in previous seasons but this time we have shown some mental resilience to come back from behind and win tough games .I wouldn't rule out Wenger for an unknown and untested manager to take the job .

Benefit of the doubt. :lol:

Come on, he's been given plenty of that in recent years.

[latewinner]

Yes, really. We had a period of dominating English football once before. In the 1930s! It had been 60 years since then and while we'd always had trophies here and there the title in '89 was the first in 18 years and while we repeated it 2 years later by the mid-90s we were a very mid-table side who had some good Cup runs but never seriously looked like title contenders. So yes, winning 3 titles in 7 years and 2 of those being Double seasons (yes, we'd done it before but not for nearly 40 years and gave no indication of being able to repeat it although we were close in '91) was exceptional for the club in modern times.

Wenger can't live off that period of success forever of course and every season which goes by without a trophy more fans lose patience with him but to act like that period of success wasn't exceptional for our club is...well, it's just plain wrong. It was the best period since the 30s and not even Coney remembers that.

But the perception is it was too good for Arsenal so 7..8..9 seasons of no trophies and the same mistakes still can't allow us to question him and not be criticised for it. His success was exceptional because of the football we played and watching players like Henry, Bergkamp, Pires....
Ferguson's success is exceptional but even he is more accountable than Wenger and his fans aren't in debt to him as much as people think we are to Wenger.

So yeh his success was outstanding but impossible for a club of our stature, don't agree, even when English football was highly competitive pre 92 we won trophies, reached fa cup finals, had potential which Wenger realised, but we can go higher,
Anyway I'm going to stop talking about it because he's not going

[Alpha]

why not now? what difference would it make if he left now or end of next season? at some point he has to leave anyway, so why not now.
Eventually he will leave one day as everything has an end . But can't you see it's too soon for that to happen ? I think so .

[Japan Shaking All Over]

May be?

Red or white sir?

Glass of rose, please. . .

[Kano]

If we finish 10 points above Chelsea or Tottenham from now, would we not say they were a threat for 3rd/4th place? In 08/09 many of us were bricking it when Villa were clear of us. We bought Arshavin and ended up finishing 10 points above them. Were they not challengers for 4th that season?

Come on, lets not take the self-loathing too far. Some seasons - like this one - we're obviously nowhere near being title challengers. But in 09-10, and 10-11, I think you could say we were challenging for the title but, typically, couldn't sustain it for the final stages.

no challenging for the title is being in the hunt with a few games remaining. looking at stats to flatter ourselves, only 4 points off the top or finishing 3rd etc does not disguise we have been miles away from being realistic challengers

[Japan Shaking All Over]

To be fair. . .that point is emphasised by the difference between us and second

[Alpha]

Benefit of the doubt. :lol:

Come on, he's been given plenty of that in recent years.
How many time the team ( or Wenger himself) have been let down by the Board for not giving the money to strengthen the squad ? What about the crown leaving the stadium before the last whistle simple because we are behind on the score ? Or simple not giving a damn to cheer up the team and giving more power and confidence to the opposite side ? Arsene is not the only one to blame . He has more responsibility but blame must be shared .

[Letters]

But the perception is it was too good for Arsenal so 7..8..9 seasons of no trophies and the same mistakes still can't allow us to question him and not be criticised for it. His success was exceptional because of the football we played and watching players like Henry, Bergkamp, Pires....
Ferguson's success is exceptional but even he is more accountable than Wenger and his fans aren't in debt to him as much as people think we are to Wenger.

So yeh his success was outstanding but impossible for a club of our stature, don't agree, even when English football was highly competitive pre 92 we won trophies, reached fa cup finals, had potential which Wenger realised, but we can go higher,
Anyway I'm going to stop talking about it because he's not going


I wouldn't say it was 'too good' but it was exceptional for even a club with as rich a history as ours. I grew up in an era where you couldn't say "Arsenal" without the words "Boring, Boring" preceeding it, in an era when the Double was spoken about in hushed voices as something which a club could only dream of acheiving. To have such a successful period and watching a team playing with such style. It's not something I ever thought I'd see.
Of course Wenger can't live off that forever. No-one is saying he shouldn't be questioned and we shouldn't expect a club at our level to be winning trophies - although it must be acknowledged that it was Wenger who raised our level and the expectations which go with it.

You're right, he's almost certainly not going because he is delivering what the board expect. I'm not sure if Wenger can take us forward but I have seen some signs of hope recently which have made me reconsider my opinion from a couple of months back when I couldn't see we had much to lose by sacking him. Now I'm not so sure. We've had false dawns before and this might well be another one, I guess we'll see in the remaining 10 games.

[Kano]

How many time the team ( or Wenger himself) have been let down by the Board for not giving the money to strengthen the squad ? What about the crown leaving the stadium before the last whistle simple because we are behind on the score ? Or simple not giving a damn to cheer up the team and giving more power and confidence to the opposite side ? Arsene is not the only one to blame . He has more responsibility but blame must be shared .

how many time has PHW made a poor subsitution or tactical error, or failed to get the team to man up when needed?

but of course, lets concentrate on the crowd, it's clearly their fault.


Wenger: “The fact that we have come back before helped us. We feel now that we just have that complete and total commitment to give everything. It gets the crowd behind team.”

[Alpha]

I wouldn't say it was 'too good' but it was exceptional for even a club with as rich a history as ours. I grew up in an era where you couldn't say "Arsenal" without the words "Boring, Boring" preceeding it, in an era when the Double was spoken about in hushed voices as something which a club could only dream of acheiving. To have such a successful period and watching a team playing with such style. It's not something I ever thought I'd see.
Of course Wenger can't live off that forever. No-one is saying he shouldn't be questioned and we shouldn't expect a club at our level to be winning trophies - although it must be acknowledged that it was Wenger who raised our level and the expectations which go with it.

You're right, he's almost certainly not going because he is delivering what the board expect. I'm not sure if Wenger can take us forward but I have seen some signs of hope recently which have made me reconsider my opinion from a couple of months back when I couldn't see we had much to lose by sacking him. Now I'm not so sure. We've had false dawns before and this might well be another one, I guess we'll see in the remaining 10 games.


I said give him the benefit of doubt and some people questioned it . we are all frustrated by Wenger at certain stage but the light of hope is also shining from him . why not give him more time to perform the miracle we are all expecting : to get our famous Arsenal back ?

[Alpha]

how many time has PHW made a poor subsitution or tactical error, or failed to get the team to man up when needed?

but of course, lets concentrate on the crowd, it's clearly their fault.
All manager make mistakes . Any manager can get his tactic wrong . That's why even great teams lose some games .
Wenger is right the crown respond to the vibes coming from the team . Have you never seen fans loyal to their team even when there is no hope of winning anything ? They support their team for their history , their value ..etc.. Watch the league one or two you will see fans excited for their team even when they are losing . I was very impressed and touched by our away fans when Man U killed us 8-2 . I saw the love of the team and I nearly cried even though I was not happy at all with the result let alone the performance . That's what should be expected from us all .

[Kano]

you are said in your previous post it was the board and the crowd that have more of an affect than the manager. that is nonsense of course.

what happens on the pitch is a direct reflection of the management of the team and despite us having the talent at our disposal to do better, we repeatedly haven't.

as wenger says above, if the team put the effort in, the crowd will respond.

our stagnation has nothing to do with fans or the board but the manager.

[bignev]

Of course Wenger can't live off that forever. No-one is saying he shouldn't be questioned and we shouldn't expect a club at our level to be winning trophies - although it must be acknowledged that it was Wenger who raised our level and the expectations which go with it.

You're right, he's almost certainly not going because he is delivering what the board expect. I'm not sure if Wenger can take us forward but I have seen some signs of hope recently which have made me reconsider my opinion from a couple of months back when I couldn't see we had much to lose by sacking him. Now I'm not so sure. We've had false dawns before and this might well be another one, I guess we'll see in the remaining 10 games.

:gp:

[fakeyank]

True and last season we were competing its only because we did not replace the key players we lost we fell short or we be right up there this season.

We never compete beyond March mate.. April is our cut off date. Feb is the usual time frame when we crash out of everything but we do happen to push it out to March once in a while.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We never compete beyond March mate.. April is our cut off date. Feb is the usual time frame when we crash out of everything but we do happen to push it out to March once in a while.

True, although last season had we only won the CC it seemed like we win something else.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

why not now? what difference would it make if he left now or end of next season? at some point he has to leave anyway, so why not now.

No way do we need an unknown manager to replace him, we need someone we know can come in and turn this club around.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You're right, he's almost certainly not going because he is delivering what the board expect.
:gp:

[fakeyank]

True, although last season had we only won the CC it seemed like we win something else.

Had we, could have, If, possibly, may be....

Story of our last 6 seasons :crying:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Had we, could have, If, possibly, may be....

Story of our last 6 seasons :crying:

Very true Sir, very true.

[Alpha]

you are said in your previous post it was the board and the crowd that have more of an affect than the manager. that is nonsense of course.what happens on the pitch is a direct reflection of the management of the team and despite us having the talent at our disposal to do better, we repeatedly haven't.as wenger says above, if the team put the effort in, the crowd will respond.our stagnation has nothing to do with fans or the board but the manager. I never said what you rightly call nonsense. I even said Wenger has more responsibility for all that happen on the pitch . So you got everything wrong here . What I actually underline is everyone concerned must play their part and share the blame when things go wrong . The Board must release enough fund to buy new players when needed . The fans must cheer the team up . Players must give their best . That is my point . I don't like to make Wenger the sole scapegoat for our failure . We win together and we lose together .

[Super Ghel]

:lol: Gosh, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen polls like this being reincarnated in the last several years, with cries from the usual quarters calling for Wenger’s head to be served on a platter and here we are yet again, stuck in a loop with meaningless ultimatums and pointless deliberations of Wenger’s fate when we all know he’s not going anywhere anytime soon lol.

And judging by the sound bite from the club on the subject of CL qualification, I’ll even wager that if we don’t make top 4 at the end of May, Wenger will still remain in charge next season with the strong support and backing of the people who actually matters in the equation. I don’t know why it’s such a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but to me, it’s evidently clear that at the very core of these farcical merry go round re Wenger, are two very distinct paradigms and polar opposite views on the definition of success for the club. In one corner we have disgruntled fans who see the last 6-7 barren years as nothing but abject failure, while on the other, we have the leadership of the club (both old and new), who views this period as one of great success (whether they openly admit it or not is another story).

How so you ask? Well you say we’ve won fuck all for the last 7 years, but from the management’s perspective, the biggest trophy for the club is standing right there in front of your eyes, in the form of a prized asset called the Emirates. And with the help of their mercurial employee of the decade, the club has continued to qualify for the CL, despite odds of spending not just minimally but negatively. This in turn has allowed the club to pay off its debt at a record pace and thus set the club up nicely for FFP (whether this rule will actually help remains to be seen). And the icing on top for the old guard (thanks to this non fussy star performer), is that they get to execute their exit strategies according to plan and hustle the noob for maximum returns. And you call that a failure? :lol:

And what of the new guard? Do you think he’s paying this exorbitant price so he can bask in glory and twirl his moustache thin in anxious agony for some silverware at the end of the day? So then what’s perked his interest? I’ll say he sees value in the club’s approach to long term excellence and the management’s mantra of self sustainability which ties in with his personal investment philosophy; he see huge potential for growth and expansion, and desperately wants to sample a portion of that delicious serving called Buffet Warren (the French version that is). Do you honestly think he’s gonna let this proven money making machine slip away from his grasp that easily? Nah, he’s the key component unfortunately. The way I see it, as long as this chasm of expectation remains, I seriously doubt the club is going to let Wenger go anytime soon.


That makes it worse . Wenger has the power to demand what he wants but goes along with them. He's holding us back not them. To me that's just cowardly he has the resources and position to compete but embraces the fact there is money but he doesn't use it.
I find this inspired BS revolving around the notion that it’s Wenger holding the club back and not the other way around quite ridiculous. He maybe the golden goose/mouthpiece/whatever but at the end of the day, he’s just an employee, nothing more. This kind of retarded logic just doesn’t stand up to the scrutiny of the simplest basic test of common sense. If you insist that Wenger is the source of the problem and not the board, then please tell me how do you reconcile the following inconsistencies?

1. Are you saying that it’s OK and acceptable for the employers/board to be Wengerites but it is not OK for the employee to be one? Is that not cringeworthy double standards of the highest degree?

2. If what you’re claiming is true and Wenger is leading the board by the nose and dragging the club down, then surely by not acting on it, the board is in breach of their duty of care to the club? Would this not automatically make them accountable and warrant them walking in the first place?

3. It’s already no big secret what the board thinks of the Wenger-out camp. Their stance on the subject is crystal clear and consistent. So if you think Wenger’s the problem and not the board; thereby making no counter claim to the board’s assertion that you’re mongs (either by abstinence or implied level of blame), are you implying there’s some validity to their claim? You can’t both be right at the same time so one of you must be wrong. So which is it? What is a neutral supposed to make of your argument?

See how farcical it becomes if you absolve the board of accountability or blame? Nah, to conclude that Wenger’s the master puppeteer and the source of the problem is just oxymoronic. If you want to accuse Wenger of anything, he is guilty of complicity, that much is certain. But then again, he’s the employee after all.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Mong Paradox™ :bow:

[Power n Glory]

Has it been that sort of debate? I think everyone can agree that the Board have the power to make the final decision on Wenger's career. That's not really the point of this thread. It's been an up and down season and Wenger took a real kicking in a similar poll some months ago and his popularity amongst fans was at an all time low. Given recent results on the pitch, we're now looking back opinions and whether the results have swayed opinion and faith in Wenger.

This isn't about the Board. If their content with 4th and raking in a profit...whatever. This self sustainability model seems short sighted anyway because we can't simply depend on sellling players each window to make a profit while our wage bill continue to rise. I also find it strange that someone can pour over the figures each quarter and fail to spot the huge figures we pay out to average players. It's strange that we'd be so strict on transfer fees and massive contracts yet allow our wage bill to rise over £120m or whatever the figure is. So generous in one department but strict in another. I've said it before, but this looks like a mismanagement of funds and someone needs to take Wenger to town on this. But I guess that will happen if we eventually drop out of the top four.

The Board may be content with a top four finish and stability but no manager should set that sort of limit for himself. Winning games and being rewarded with silverware at the end should be the ultimate for players and the manager. Wenger may be just doing what is required of him, the bare minimum. He may see eye to eye with the Board on this, but if so, he's lost his passion and we should feel pissed off about it. But I don't think he's lost the hunger to win, we don't go out each game with intentions of playing shit. I just think he's past it. The board may not agree with that opinion but they soon will if we have another disaster of a season and fall out of the Top 4. If they measure success by numbers, they'll soon see the problem when the wage bill keeps rising and we've got no more star players to sell to cover over the cracks.

But enough of the doom and gloom, I hope we finish this season on a high and continue to play how we're playing now.

[LDG]

Has it been that sort of debate? I think everyone can agree that the Board have the power to make the final decision on Wenger's career. That's not really the point of this thread. It's been an up and down season and Wenger took a real kicking in a similar poll some months ago and his popularity amongst fans was at an all time low. Given recent results on the pitch, we're now looking back opinions and whether the results have swayed opinion and faith in Wenger.

This isn't about the Board. If their content with 4th and raking in a profit...whatever. This self sustainability model seems short sighted anyway because we can't simply depend on sellling players each window to make a profit while our wage bill continue to rise. I also find it strange that someone can pour over the figures each quarter and fail to spot the huge figures we pay out to average players. It's strange that we'd be so strict on transfer fees and massive contracts yet allow our wage bill to rise over £120m or whatever the figure is. So generous in one department but strict in another. I've said it before, but this looks like a mismanagement of funds and someone needs to take Wenger to town on this. But I guess that will happen if we eventually drop out of the top four.

The Board may be content with a top four finish and stability but no manager should set that sort of limit for himself. Winning games and being rewarded with silverware at the end should be the ultimate for players and the manager. Wenger may be just doing what is required of him, the bare minimum. He may see eye to eye with the Board on this, but if so, he's lost his passion and we should feel pissed off about it. But I don't think he's lost the hunger to win, we don't go out each game with intentions of playing shit. I just think he's past it. The board may not agree with that opinion but they soon will if we have another disaster of a season and fall out of the Top 4. If they measure success by numbers, they'll soon see the problem when the wage bill keeps rising and we've got no more star players to sell to cover over the cracks.

But enough of the doom and gloom, I hope we finish this season on a high and continue to play how we're playing now.

Nicely put :good:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Has it been that sort of debate? I think everyone can agree that the Board have the power to make the final decision on Wenger's career. That's not really the point of this thread. It's been an up and down season and Wenger took a real kicking in a similar poll some months ago and his popularity amongst fans was at an all time low. Given recent results on the pitch, we're now looking back opinions and whether the results have swayed opinion and faith in Wenger.

This isn't about the Board. If their content with 4th and raking in a profit...whatever. This self sustainability model seems short sighted anyway because we can't simply depend on sellling players each window to make a profit while our wage bill continue to rise. I also find it strange that someone can pour over the figures each quarter and fail to spot the huge figures we pay out to average players. It's strange that we'd be so strict on transfer fees and massive contracts yet allow our wage bill to rise over £120m or whatever the figure is. So generous in one department but strict in another. I've said it before, but this looks like a mismanagement of funds and someone needs to take Wenger to town on this. But I guess that will happen if we eventually drop out of the top four.

The Board may be content with a top four finish and stability but no manager should set that sort of limit for himself. Winning games and being rewarded with silverware at the end should be the ultimate for players and the manager. Wenger may be just doing what is required of him, the bare minimum. He may see eye to eye with the Board on this, but if so, he's lost his passion and we should feel pissed off about it. But I don't think he's lost the hunger to win, we don't go out each game with intentions of playing shit. I just think he's past it. The board may not agree with that opinion but they soon will if we have another disaster of a season and fall out of the Top 4. If they measure success by numbers, they'll soon see the problem when the wage bill keeps rising and we've got no more star players to sell to cover over the cracks.

But enough of the doom and gloom, I hope we finish this season on a high and continue to play how we're playing now.

Top post Png one of the best in this thread.

[Globalgunner]

What is there to say that hasnt been said before. the salient fact is that we have won nothing in 7 years and do not look like winning anything in the near future if things remain the same. I find it incredulous that some fans still have steadfast belief in success around the corner, while our best players keep voting with their feet. say what you want about Nasri, Clichy and co but fabregas would not have left if we had been winning stuff and RVP would not leave or dawdle on a new contract if he had something to show for the last 6 years. You cannot keep your best players on a whim and a prayer, (only fans are that gullible, it seems). Wengers problem to me are his methods. He cannot create a winning culture and midset that can do truly great things. tactics and mentality, this is where he fails and at 62, wenger will not be changing anytime soon.

Ask yourself, truly, if Wenger and SAF were in reverse roles. Who do you think would have the more trophies?. We Lionise Wenger as the best manager we have ever had in our lifetimes, but is being second best the sum total of our dreams....really. Wenger is our own Ferguson, just like a souped up Ford is a poor mans Ferrari. We can do better, so much better, we should not be afraid to try. This club has not been relegated in over 80 years, no reason to think it will happen if this manager leaves, who knows? , we might even win something.

[selassie]

Has it been that sort of debate? I think everyone can agree that the Board have the power to make the final decision on Wenger's career. That's not really the point of this thread. It's been an up and down season and Wenger took a real kicking in a similar poll some months ago and his popularity amongst fans was at an all time low. Given recent results on the pitch, we're now looking back opinions and whether the results have swayed opinion and faith in Wenger.

This isn't about the Board. If their content with 4th and raking in a profit...whatever. This self sustainability model seems short sighted anyway because we can't simply depend on sellling players each window to make a profit while our wage bill continue to rise. I also find it strange that someone can pour over the figures each quarter and fail to spot the huge figures we pay out to average players. It's strange that we'd be so strict on transfer fees and massive contracts yet allow our wage bill to rise over £120m or whatever the figure is. So generous in one department but strict in another. I've said it before, but this looks like a mismanagement of funds and someone needs to take Wenger to town on this. But I guess that will happen if we eventually drop out of the top four.

The Board may be content with a top four finish and stability but no manager should set that sort of limit for himself. Winning games and being rewarded with silverware at the end should be the ultimate for players and the manager. Wenger may be just doing what is required of him, the bare minimum. He may see eye to eye with the Board on this, but if so, he's lost his passion and we should feel pissed off about it. But I don't think he's lost the hunger to win, we don't go out each game with intentions of playing shit. I just think he's past it. The board may not agree with that opinion but they soon will if we have another disaster of a season and fall out of the Top 4. If they measure success by numbers, they'll soon see the problem when the wage bill keeps rising and we've got no more star players to sell to cover over the cracks.

But enough of the doom and gloom, I hope we finish this season on a high and continue to play how we're playing now.

Top Post P'n'G

I agree with your points on the mismanagement of the squad, Saying that I do get the impression Arsene is trying to get rid of some of his 'expensive mistakes', the problem I think he is facing and will face is finding takers for some of the 'dead wood'. If they stay it will impact us improving the squad. We have a lot of average players on very healthy wages, it's a big problem IMHO.

My general feeling is that Arsene needs to deliver the bare minimum this season which for me and I suspect the board is a top 4 finish. Arsene's summer is going to be crucial this year, a repeat of last season and he should be shown the door before we kick off the season. He absolutely has to retain the core of the squad and bring in REAL quality to supplement it. I'm not talking about spending 50million on a single player, but the likes of signing Podolski, Vertoghen & some of the other established players we've been linked with would be a massive step in the right direction.

[Niall_Quinn]

If their content with 4th and raking in a profit...whatever.

You said "their" instead of "they're" :haha:

[fakeyank]

Good read..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4233357/Kastro-column-Arsene-Wenger-loses-the-argument.html

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Good read..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4233357/Kastro-column-Arsene-Wenger-loses-the-argument.html

the man has become the laughing stock of club football

[Cripps_orig]

Good read..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4233357/Kastro-column-Arsene-Wenger-loses-the-argument.htmlIts from The Sun so bound to be BS

Someone was going to say it tbh so might as well get it out the way.

The fact its actually spot on and shows Wenger up as the fool he is wont come in to it

Wenger lovers on here will hide behind the "its the sun" line.

[Flavs]

One thing i don't understand and never had is why we bought these young players and paid them so much, was the intention to sell them on as we did with Nasri, Hleb, Ade etc. or was it to keep them and develop them into a winning side? Regardless of the fact it hasn't worked is what would have happened if we had won stuff? Would they have asked for huge pay rises?

If a player like Denilson is on £35k a week and we win things and he gets into the Brazil team we essentially face a choice, pay him more to stay or sell him for big money to a "bigger" club, is this our business model? Who thought this would ever work? I am not singling out this player intentionally he is just the best example. Also if these players are such a millstone why not just offer them on free transfers? I am sure there are teams out there would take players with the ability of Vela, Bendtner, the Squid and so on for free. (I also wonder if its the management of these players rather than their individual attitudes and abilities that is the problem but that's a whole other thread)

Wenger says we cant compete with the likes of Man Citeh and Chavski in the transfer market hence we sign young and unknown players and develop them (I presume to then sell) but that's nonsense, every year we see players come into the prem and make a mark, of course that doesn't mean they could have done it for us but come on, why are we paying huge wages to unknown "talent" when there are players in the prem, with prem experience, internationals for the most part, who would be honoured to come and play for us?

I look around the premier league and see players like Siggurdson who is on loan at Swansea and is a game changing player, an international, piss poor wages by our standards and a cheap transfer fee, why aren't we getting players like this? Would someone like Clint Dempsey have cost more than Gervinho? A player of top premier league calibre, 13 goals this season for Fulham, again an international who would have virtually no bedding-in time (Again another thread), yet we have to wait for Megamind to get used to "the pace of the premiership"

We either have some very odd decision making in our finance department or we are waiting for the re-birth of the magic hat. Either way our transfer policy has to change for both in and out.

[Flavs]

Good read..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4233357/Kastro-column-Arsene-Wenger-loses-the-argument.html

what an utter load of bollocks, what lost us the tie against Milan was the bizarre tactics we played in the first leg it and that's it. If we lacked any personalities we wouldnt have beaten them so easily in the second leg.

[Letters]

the man has become the laughing stock of club football

Nonsense. The opposition fans I talk to are bewildered at the slagging off Wenger gets from Arsenal fans.

[Joker]

But they haven't been following our club as closely as we have over the past 6 years, where season after season we've been committing the same errors and mistakes and show the same mental fragility and a lack of squad depth that has resulted in disappointment after disappointment. The board deserve a lot of blame for being unreconstructed capitalists, but the manager is responsible for organising the squad, for selecting the players and ensuring they are well prepared for any challenge, and he has failed to do that, for which he should be sacked.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Will you choose, wenger in?
wenger out?
in, out
in, out
shake it all about!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

what an utter load of bollocks, what lost us the tie against Milan was the bizarre tactics we played in the first leg it and that's it. If we lacked any personalities we wouldnt have beaten them so easily in the second leg.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

But they haven't been following our club as closely as we have over the past 6 years, where season after season we've been committing the same errors and mistakes and show the same mental fragility and a lack of squad depth that has resulted in disappointment after disappointment. The board deserve a lot of blame for being unreconstructed capitalists, but the manager is responsible for organising the squad, for selecting the players and ensuring they are well prepared for any challenge, and he has failed to do that, for which he should be sacked.

But he has not failed in his targets his employes set for him thats why he won't be sacked and in their eyes should not be sacked.

What the fans think becomes irrelvant.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Is their sarcasm that poor?

[Coney]

Is there sarcasm that poor?

As poor as your use of English.

[Niall_Quinn]

As poor as your use of English.

But not as bad as your face.

[Özim]

But he has not failed in his targets his employes set for him thats why he won't be sacked and in their eyes should not be sacked.

What the fans think becomes irrelvant.
When what the customer thinks no longer matters you end up with an inferior product which costs a fortune.

What the fans think is very relevant, do you really think they'd not change things if people stopped turning up? The problem we have is the fans turn up regardless of what happens and this allows the club to basically write it's own cheques and do whatever it likes.

The money comes from the fans and money talks, sadly the cllub knows that they can say and do almost anything they want without repercussions.

[Letters]

The money comes from the fans and money talks, sadly the cllub knows that they can say and do almost anything they want without repercussions.

Well, not anything. If we'd descended to mid-table or worse or started playing boring football (I know you think we have, clearly lots of others disagree) then people would have stopped going - already this season the numbers dropped off noticeably when we were on poor runs.

[Kano]

The problem we have is the fans turn up regardless of what happens and this allows the club to basically write it's own cheques and do whatever it likes.
this is the much larger point you turn into a 'problem'.

fans turn up every week hopeful. hoping for a win. an escape from work and domestic duties to try and live out their fantasies on the pitch.

at every club the same thing would happen, because no matter what happens fans want to believe - otherwise there is no point following the sport, let alone a club.

and there is nothing wrong with hoping things will change for the better. it doesn't mean fans are blinded to the issues with their team. far from it actually, if you recall the booing at our place earlier in the season.

fans know what the real problems are but that has nothing to do with hoping for a win over the weekend and that the larger problems will be resolved.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

As poor as your use of English.

well if it ain't Wenger's b!@tch

[Olivier's xmas twist]

When what the customer thinks no longer matters you end up with an inferior product which costs a fortune.

What the fans think is very relevant, do you really think they'd not change things if people stopped turning up? The problem we have is the fans turn up regardless of what happens and this allows the club to basically write it's own cheques and do whatever it likes.

The money comes from the fans and money talks, sadly the cllub knows that they can say and do almost anything they want without repercussions.

The fans are irrelveant in what they think, because Wenger won't get sacked because fans post Wenger out after everygame. He is not a failure because the fans say he is. he is only a failure when his employers say he is that the diffrence. they make the decsions not us.

You can go into the harrods and think the Sales Assocoiate was useless and should not be in the job but if he is meeting his employers targets they won't sack him reagrdless of what people say unless it effects the the business.

Yes fans pay the money but thats their choice no one puts a gun to their head and forced them too.

You say were in a patten of same old after the last 4 years and i agree, if a fan belives this season is going to be the same and pays for a new season ticket them more fool them.

But if they pay hoping for a change then thats the diffrence.

To many gooners talk the talk. "We need to protest" "Lets put up banners" etc. but in end nothing gets done.

Its easy posting on a forum but why not take some of that energy and put it into something that may force the club to change its ways.

[Coney]

well if it ain't Wenger's b!@tch

Much better. Needs a comma, though. :good:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Much better. Needs a comma, though. :good:

lol.....cool boss

[Cripps_orig]

The fans are irrelveant in what they think, because Wenger won't get sacked because fans post Wenger out after everygame. He is not a failure because the fans say he is. he is only a failure when his employers say he is that the diffrence. they make the decsions not us.

You can go into the harrods and think the Sales Assocoiate was useless and should not be in the job but if he is meeting his employers targets they won't sack him reagrdless of what people say unless it effects the the business.

Yes fans pay the money but thats their choice no one puts a gun to their head and forced them too.

You say were in a patten of same old after the last 4 years and i agree, if a fan belives this season is going to be the same and pays for a new season ticket them more fool them.

But if they pay hoping for a change then thats the diffrence.

To many gooners talk the talk. "We need to protest" "Lets put up banners" etc. but in end nothing gets done.

Its easy posting on a forum but why not take some of that energy and put it into something that may force the club to change its ways.

Didnt Gazidis or one of the other miney grabbers on the board say its the fans who will decide if they get rid of Wenger or not?

[Cripps_orig]

The fans are irrelveant in what they think, because Wenger won't get sacked because fans post Wenger out after everygame. He is not a failure because the fans say he is. he is only a failure when his employers say he is that the diffrence. they make the decsions not us.

You can go into the harrods and think the Sales Assocoiate was useless and should not be in the job but if he is meeting his employers targets they won't sack him reagrdless of what people say unless it effects the the business.

Yes fans pay the money but thats their choice no one puts a gun to their head and forced them too.

You say were in a patten of same old after the last 4 years and i agree, if a fan belives this season is going to be the same and pays for a new season ticket them more fool them.

But if they pay hoping for a change then thats the diffrence.

To many gooners talk the talk. "We need to protest" "Lets put up banners" etc. but in end nothing gets done.

Its easy posting on a forum but why not take some of that energy and put it into something that may force the club to change its ways.

Didnt Gazidis or one of the other money grabbers on the board say its the fans who will decide if they get rid of Wenger or not?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Didnt Gazidis or one of the other money grabbers on the board say its the fans who will decide if they get rid of Wenger or not?

And yet AW is still in the job shows how much the club feel about fan opionion tbh. Even with all Wenger out on this and other forums and on phone in's etc he is still in the job, it seems the owner board have not take much notice of that.

But i think Ivan only said it because he thought it was what the fans wanted to hear anyway.

[Cripps_orig]

tptb?

[Letters]

And yet AW is still in the job shows how much the club feel about fan opionion tbh.

At the last game there were "One Arsene Wenger" chants :shrug:
The people who go to games are, in general, nowhere near as down on him as the opinions I've seen on here.
There have been some "spend some ***ing money" chants directed at him at times but overall there's not that much discontent in the ground right now. The moment it could have got really ugly was when we were 2-0 down to the Spuds. We were on a bad run and had we lost that one there would have been an...interesting reaction. But we turned it round and went on a good run and the mood lifted.

If we're seen as customers by the club (and we are) then why should they care what people who don't go to games (and thus aren't spending much on the club) think.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

At the last game there were "One Arsene Wenger" chants :shrug:
The people who go to games are, in general, nowhere near as down on him as the opinions I've seen on here.
There have been some "spend some ***ing money" chants directed at him at times but overall there's not that much discontent in the ground right now. The moment it could have got really ugly was when we were 2-0 down to the Spuds. We were on a bad run and had we lost that one there would have been an...interesting reaction. But we turned it round and went on a good run and the mood lifted.

If we're seen as customers by the club (and we are) then why should they care what people who don't go to games (and thus aren't spending much on the club) think.

Very true this is what i was trying to say.

[Kano]

If we're seen as customers by the club (and we are) then why should they care what people who don't go to games (and thus aren't spending much on the club) think.
it's rarely different at any club, as if a fan pays to go to the stadium then he comes with hope - no point turning up other wise. calls for fans not to turn up is so far off the mark as it is an action that nearly all fans would not do - even the blackburn fans earlier this season demonstrated but still walked through the turnstile. and all clubs know this; asking someone to stop loving at the drop of a hat is near on impossible.

[selassie]

He's won back quite a lot of trust from me in the way he's turned around our season. I'll be clear and maybe to some harsh, Arsene had us in a REAL hole early season, his disastrous dealings in the market almost cost us big time.

Sure he panic bought at the tail end of the Window but things had got that bad.

Strangely enough I like some of his signings, I think Arteta has done a real good job for us this season and has cemented his place in the starting XI, I don't think Arteta is a champion but he's a very good PL player. Santos has looked pretty decent at times and seems Prem Ready, Merte has been hit and miss though is a very good option to have as 3rd choice, OX is a MAJOR talent and Park has been his "annual screw up from the foreign market". Park didn't cost much and I think Arsene panicked big time because he had nobody outside of RVP who could do anything for us this season.

We have the makings of a very strong first XI and a half decent squad, we all know what needs to happen this summer and assuming we finish top 4 which is looking likely, Arsene will be judged on what he does in the market this summer for me. I'm very 50/50 on him now, I'll happily admit I've wanted him gone for a few seasons now but the way he's turned around what was developing into a "disastrous" season deserves praise. Even if we finish top 4, he has achieved what I believe is his objective this season so he's by no means overachieved. You could argue that he's overachieved in the sense the squad is in poor shape in general and the overall level of the team is probably not as strong as recent teams he's built.

He absolutely has to get it RIGHT this summer, if it means bending the rules (in his world), then he needs to pay whatever it takes to keep RVP & Theo at the club. There is a caveat to this, I would only retain them on the basis that they are genuinely happy to stay and want to play for the SHIRT. No more promises of "one more season then you will get your dream move". If they don't want to stick around then they must be sold and replaced PROPERLY with players of equal status. If it means breaking wage structures to either retain or replace the player then so be it.

Arsene has to buy "REAL" quality this summer, players who can comfortably challenge for a starting place, the "Podolski's", "M'Villa's" & "Vertonghen's" of this world, I'm not interested in "Projects" or "Vanity Buys From The Foreign Market", I absolutely want him to send out a message to our rivals and our First XI/Squad that he means business next season, the confidence & momentum is there, now is the time to make a statement. For all that I've said I don't for one minute expect or want us to spend like Citeh or Chelsea, but I do want us to genuinely strengthen the squad with the best quality player we can possibly afford be it transfer fee & wages.

He has other work too, he needs to remove the deadwood, if it means making losses then so be it, we have a whole heap of sh*t in the squad that needs moving on.

Arsene should be judged in the summer; if the squad is not improved or he has a summer similar to last then he should be shown the door before the season starts.

If he makes the respective moves to strengthen the squad then I think he should stay on as I do believe we have the core foundations of a first XI/team that can respectably challenge for the title, certainly a side that is capable of winning a domestic cup.

The Squad needs major work though, outside of 13 or 14 we have no credible options.

[Underhill and over Grove]

Hard to disagree with any of those points Selassie. Two issues though:-

When was the last time Wenger had a real proper clearout of the squad. I am a Barnet fan (and Arsenal supporter too) and at the end of the season, we are often left with very few, if any of the players, due to the short term nature of the contracts, loan signings and the fact frankly that the vast majority of our squad just is not that good! The main difference however is that most of the players who leave have no transfer value. As you say, if Wenger is going to make the changes needed he will have to write off quite a few transfer fees in the process, the question however is whether he will be able to do this, or if we will see the likes of Chamakh, Arshavin and Djourou riding the bench yet again. As it stands they are injuy cover, not squad options and are taking the places of promising young professionals.

The second issue is whether players like Chamakh, Arshavin, Djourou and Park are as rubbish as is being suggested and therefore not to be trusted to come on, or are they victims of Wenger not picking them and therefore being given no chance to show what they can do. At some point over their arsenal careers (Park ecepted!) these players have shown the potential to be good enough, but this season they appear to have taken a number of steps back, with no clear reason why. Is it a confidence/form thing, or are they simply not good enough?

As it stands, I would rather see the likes of Miguel, Henderson and Afobe showing what they can do, than be disappointed by our so called senior professionals who pick up £60k upwards per week for not being very good.

[Marc Overmars]

Welcome to GW...

[Underhill and over Grove]

Thanks MO, I had a brief stint on the board as Gunner Bee but lost my login details so thought it easier to start again....

[GP]

Thanks MO, I had a brief stint on the board as Joker but lost my login details so thought it easier to start again....

Welcome back.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Welcome back.

:lol:

[selassie]

Hard to disagree with any of those points Selassie. Two issues though:-

When was the last time Wenger had a real proper clearout of the squad. I am a Barnet fan (and Arsenal supporter too) and at the end of the season, we are often left with very few, if any of the players, due to the short term nature of the contracts, loan signings and the fact frankly that the vast majority of our squad just is not that good! The main difference however is that most of the players who leave have no transfer value. As you say, if Wenger is going to make the changes needed he will have to write off quite a few transfer fees in the process, the question however is whether he will be able to do this, or if we will see the likes of Chamakh, Arshavin and Djourou riding the bench yet again. As it stands they are injuy cover, not squad options and are taking the places of promising young professionals.

The second issue is whether players like Chamakh, Arshavin, Djourou and Park are as rubbish as is being suggested and therefore not to be trusted to come on, or are they victims of Wenger not picking them and therefore being given no chance to show what they can do. At some point over their arsenal careers (Park ecepted!) these players have shown the potential to be good enough, but this season they appear to have taken a number of steps back, with no clear reason why. Is it a confidence/form thing, or are they simply not good enough?

As it stands, I would rather see the likes of Miguel, Henderson and Afobe showing what they can do, than be disappointed by our so called senior professionals who pick up £60k upwards per week for not being very good.

Welcome Underhill.

I personally don't think Arsene has a choice anymore, especially with the likes of Chamakh, Arshavin, Squillaci, Denilson & Almunia, add Bendtner to the list, all of them are on healthy wages & are effectively screwing up our 25 man squad quota, most/if not all of them have to go IMHO.

Out of that list we could maybe get adequate squad service out of Arshavin & Bendtner, the rest are totally surplus IMHO, they offer the team nothing, are wasting up valuable squad space & are taking home large wages. Too many "cons" to keep them around. Arshavin is pretty much surplus already, especially if Podolski comes in.

Moreover If we are going to play the "pauper" then we need to rid the squad of "high earning underachievers".

I honestly can't remember the last time Arsene had a cull and I agree that it's not in his make up to do "BIG Changes" but what choice does he have?

Edited to add: Outside of the "garbage" list we still IMHO have pretty big question marks over the likes of Djourou, Park & Diaby, that's a helluva lot of players in the squad who are effectively "surplus" or "on trial".

[-Xs-]

Wafa cup beckons...did someone say..Wenger out? :run:

[Cripps_orig]

People who said no probably want to change it now

[Olivier's xmas twist]

People who said no probably want to change it now

If they said no they said it for a reason so i doubt they want it change now makes no diffrence.

If you ask Ollie and Dog Toffe two of Aw biggest fans on here i doubt they'd change their minds.

[Özim]

If they said no they said it for a reason so i doubt they want it change now makes no diffrence.
Is blind faith a valid reason?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Is blind faith a valid reason?

Thats their Opinion and if they stick to it good on them. why should they change it because a few on here are not happy.

Like i said of they said not they said it for a reason, and it depends on what that reason if. and unless AW has done something they think is really against their views then i don't see why they'd change their opinion.

[fakeyank]

He should leave.. this should be a rhetorical question right now tbh

[selassie]

If we fail to qualify for CL then I don't think there is any other option but for him to leave but I know the board don't see it this way.

Arsene is the one who is solely responsible for the mess we're in so ultimately he should face the music.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If we fail to qualify for CL then I don't think there is any other option but for him to leave but I know the board don't see it this way.

Arsene is the one who is solely responsible for the mess we're in so ultimately he should face the music.

no him and the board are responsible. Lets not put all the blame on him, the board should be made accountable for their share of this mess where in.

But i agree we don't finish in the cl then he should walk.

[selassie]

no him and the board are responsible. Lets not put all the blame on him, the board should be made accountable for their share of this mess where in.

But i agree we don't finish in the cl then he should walk.

Well Arsene is the one who makes the technical decisions, he buys & sells the players so it's his squad. I accept that the board are not blameless and play a big part in this but I simply don't understand what happened last summer and for that alone he (Arsene) should walk.

We were so badly prepared for the start of this season that we might aswell have been managerless.

[jelgoon]

As he is so obssessed with the CL maybe he will walk if we dont qualify for it(was that a pig that just flew by my window)


no him and the board are responsible. Lets not put all the blame on him, the board should be made accountable for their share of this mess where in.

But i agree we don't finish in the cl then he should walk.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Well Arsene is the one who makes the technical decisions, he buys & sells the players so it's his squad. I accept that the board are not blameless and play a big part in this but I simply don't understand what happened last summer and for that alone he (Arsene) should walk.

We were so badly prepared for the start of this season that we might aswell have been managerless.

Aw does not do the transfers any more, which seems to be the case Ivan does so not sure what went wrong last summer and we'd never really know im guess.

But AW must take most the blame i agree but so do the board, the players as well.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

As he is so obssessed with the CL maybe he will walk if we dont qualify for it(was that a pig that just flew by my window)

Do you think he manage us in the EL cause i can't pitcure that.

[jelgoon]

You may be right, he may walk. On the other hand he is quite arrogant and people like him dont like to hold their hands up and concede defeat. May make him more determined to stay to get us back into the CL


Do you think he manage us in the EL cause i can't pitcure that.

[selassie]

Aw does not do the transfers any more, which seems to be the case Ivan does so not sure what went wrong last summer and we'd never really know im guess.

But AW must take most the blame i agree but so do the board, the players as well.

Charlie, Arsene identifies the players and has a budget to work with, he's always making comments about being in total control of the technical side of the club so therefore it's his responsibility. If we have people at the club like Ivan who are unable to complete transfer negotiations then they should be fired. He's paid a whole lot of money to do a job, he should be doing it properly and Arsene should be complaining to the board that the powers of be who are in charge of the negotiations aren't doing their jobs properly.

I do think that everybody has a part to blame but I still hold Arsene more responsible than anybody else, it's his team.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Charlie, Arsene identifies the players and has a budget to work with, he's always making comments about being in total control of the technical side of the club so therefore it's his responsibility. If we have people at the club like Ivan who are unable to complete transfer negotiations then they should be fired. He's paid a whole lot of money to do a job, he should be doing it properly and Arsene should be complaining to the board that the powers of be who are in charge of the negotiations aren't doing their jobs properly.

I do think that everybody has a part to blame but I still hold Arsene more responsible than anybody else, it's his team.

Fair enough don't disagree one bit. but u think its some guy called dick law who deals with our negoations. AW should only be indentifing who he wants and leave it to his team to do the rest.

[Power n Glory]

Charlie, Arsene identifies the players and has a budget to work with, he's always making comments about being in total control of the technical side of the club so therefore it's his responsibility. If we have people at the club like Ivan who are unable to complete transfer negotiations then they should be fired. He's paid a whole lot of money to do a job, he should be doing it properly and Arsene should be complaining to the board that the powers of be who are in charge of the negotiations aren't doing their jobs properly.

I do think that everybody has a part to blame but I still hold Arsene more responsible than anybody else, it's his team.

Our problems go beyond transfers and budgets now. It's almost irrelevant now. We have dropped points against all the newly promoted teams and relegation candidates this season. It's a continuation of what we saw in the League Cup final. It shouldn't take an extra £100m to beat these teams. It's a coaching and philosophy problem.

I place most or the blame on Wenger as well because it's his team and has the power to change things. The Board can go out get him players but he still has to coach them. Chamakh and Gervinho's confidence have hit rock bottom so quickly and he's incapable of getting anything good out of them. Arshavin started off well, was one of our most expensive buys and look what happens to him. Vermaelen is one of best players but he has some serious flaws in his game. Same for Song, but Wenger isn't able to coach the bad habits out his players and players that really struggle here end up hitting rock bottom. It's his way of coaching and it's why we struggle to teams like Wigan, QPR, Swansea, Blackburn, Norwich..etc. It's not about the money or quality of players anymore. It's the quality of the manager and my question to the board is how long will they tolerate this?

[topgun]

Our problems go beyond transfers and budgets now. It's almost irrelevant now. We have dropped points against all the newly promoted teams and relegation candidates this season. It's a continuation of what we saw in the League Cup final. It shouldn't take an extra £100m to beat these teams. It's a coaching and philosophy problem.

I place most or the blame on Wenger as well because it's his team and has the power to change things. The Board can go out get him players but he still has to coach them. Chamakh and Gervinho's confidence have hit rock bottom so quickly and he's incapable of getting anything good out of them. Arshavin started off well, was one of our most expensive buys and look what happens to him. Vermaelen is one of best players but he has some serious flaws in his game. Same for Song, but Wenger isn't able to coach the bad habits out his players and players that really struggle here end up hitting rock bottom. It's his way of coaching and it's why we struggle to teams like Wigan, QPR, Swansea, Blackburn, Norwich..etc. It's not about the money or quality of players anymore. It's the quality of the manager and my question to the board is how long will they tolerate this?

Totally agree and the sad thing is I think we will be here next season having the same discussion,Our manager is tacticly inept,only knows 1 way to play and in order for that system to work you need a team of world class players which we dont have anymore.Just spending money is not going to cure this major flaw.:oldboy:

[Tipsychubbs]

Our problems go beyond transfers and budgets now. It's almost irrelevant now. We have dropped points against all the newly promoted teams and relegation candidates this season. It's a continuation of what we saw in the League Cup final. It shouldn't take an extra £100m to beat these teams. It's a coaching and philosophy problem.

I place most or the blame on Wenger as well because it's his team and has the power to change things. The Board can go out get him players but he still has to coach them. Chamakh and Gervinho's confidence have hit rock bottom so quickly and he's incapable of getting anything good out of them. Arshavin started off well, was one of our most expensive buys and look what happens to him. Vermaelen is one of best players but he has some serious flaws in his game. Same for Song, but Wenger isn't able to coach the bad habits out his players and players that really struggle here end up hitting rock bottom. It's his way of coaching and it's why we struggle to teams like Wigan, QPR, Swansea, Blackburn, Norwich..etc. It's not about the money or quality of players anymore. It's the quality of the manager and my question to the board is how long will they tolerate this?

Agree with that. Transfers will only get you so far when the basics such as tactics, organisation and motivation aren't there. I don't fall for the same thing that gets said every year, 'next summer is the biggest one', 'we have to do something this summer' etc. because I don't trust the manager with the team. Signings will have a limited effect.

[selassie]

Our problems go beyond transfers and budgets now. It's almost irrelevant now. We have dropped points against all the newly promoted teams and relegation candidates this season. It's a continuation of what we saw in the League Cup final. It shouldn't take an extra £100m to beat these teams. It's a coaching and philosophy problem.

I place most or the blame on Wenger as well because it's his team and has the power to change things. The Board can go out get him players but he still has to coach them. Chamakh and Gervinho's confidence have hit rock bottom so quickly and he's incapable of getting anything good out of them. Arshavin started off well, was one of our most expensive buys and look what happens to him. Vermaelen is one of best players but he has some serious flaws in his game. Same for Song, but Wenger isn't able to coach the bad habits out his players and players that really struggle here end up hitting rock bottom. It's his way of coaching and it's why we struggle to teams like Wigan, QPR, Swansea, Blackburn, Norwich..etc. It's not about the money or quality of players anymore. It's the quality of the manager and my question to the board is how long will they tolerate this?

I fully agree P'n'G.

Tactics and motivation plays a massive part in the make up a successful team/squad. We lack both and Arsene is fully responsible for our lack of it.

[WilshereourGHEL]

Wenger is fine to stay so long as his new number 2 is not a yes man. Someone like tony adams would be perfect he would teach the players of what it means to play for "The Arsenal"

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger is fine to stay so long as his new number 2 is not a yes man. Someone like tony adams would be perfect he would teach the players of what it means to play for "The Arsenal"

:gp:

[GP]

Wenger is fine to stay so long as his new number 2 is not a yes man. Someone like tony adams would be perfect he would teach the players of what it means to play for "The Arsenal"

Except that Adams has proven that he is a massively shit coach.

[GP]

Actually, Adams applied for the job but was turned down.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Actually, Adams applied for the job but was turned down.

Steve Bould tbh.

[Marc Overmars]

Adams is shit. A dire Wenger wannabe.

No thanks.

[WilshereourGHEL]

Someone like adams is a legend at this club him as number 2 would be nothing but good yes he didn't do too well at his first stint in management but he has to learn he was fast tracked and failed a couple years with wenger and he would be perfect steve bould is a big no no for me seems like a wenger yes man to me and we don't need another one of those

[Dennis Bendtner]

Steve Bould is the strongest shout for assistant. Supposedly the reserve team coach is being given a first team role too. So that's both yoof posts vacant. Might be more appropriate for others to apply for. Bring back Bergkamp, in all fairness.

[Özim]

We don't need a new number 2 we need a new number one, the current one is a loser.