Anyone happy to finish outside top 4, if it brings about real change?

[Joker]

I know the manager and the board view 4th place as the holy grail of football, the be all and end all when it comes to sporting achievement. However, for the fans, this sort of narrow financial determinism is depressing, and I know many people who have said they'd prefer to drop out of the top 4, if it meant having to rebuild from bottom up, as it may lead to a loss of many established players (who have failed to step up to the plate over the last 5 years), the manager leaving and perhaps even change in the boardroom, especially if Stan feels a club without the Champions League revenues is not worth "investing" in. I think this is the only way we'll succeed in the long run tbh.

However, there are others who think that such an upheaval will see us languish in mid-table for a long time, and that continuity is the way forward, and that once FIFA's financial fair play regulations are put in place, it will create a level playing field allowing our "prudent" business style to reap dividends.

What do you think?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No, I can't do it. It possibly means actively wanting us to drop points for some supposed greater good that might never actually arrive and there's no way I can bring myself to want that.

[Marc Overmars]

Ultimatley it's better for the club long term to be in the CL.

As a fan does merely getting 3rd/4th every year satisfy me? No, not by a long shot because I think we're more than capable of doing better. The club needs to change but it has to be measured and calculated. Missing out on the CL gravy train for the sake of maybe seeing change won't cut it. Look at the state of Liverpools squad now 3 years on from their last CL outing. Once we're out of it will be hard to come back.

[LDG]

I think there is change afoot anyway. The noises leaking out of the camp over the last few months are encouraging.

No, I want us to go for 3rd, and then regroup in the summer.

[Marc Overmars]

Also, it's well documented that a large chunk of the profit the club makes is from player sales. And that's WITH the added CL revenue. So fuck knows how many we'd flog if we didn't have that added cash boost.

[Özim]

I think there is change afoot anyway. The noises leaking out of the camp over the last few months are encouraging.

No, I want us to go for 3rd, and then regroup in the summer.
No offence but IMO you're kidding yourself, I think little will change in the summer and that's despite a poor season overall for us.

[Letters]

No offence but IMO you're kidding yourself, I think little will change in the summer and that's despite a poor season overall for us.

You may be right. I've seen a few signs recently which give me hope and I'm not going to over-react to one poor result, every team gets those from time to time. If we go on our 3rd poor run of the season then it will be fatal to our chances of a top 4 finish and show that the recent excellent run has been yet another false dawn. If we finish strongly, get a top 4 finish, sign Podolski nice and early, get RvP signed up and do some more decent business in the transfer market then maybe things will change for the better.

We'll see.

[LDG]

No offence but IMO you're kidding yourself, I think little will change in the summer and that's despite a poor season overall for us.

I'm a football fan. I start every season optimistic.

This time round, it seems like we're trying to get business done early.

The fact that Champachs, Park etc are not getting games, it a usual sign that Wenger is gonna get rid.

So if we're actively looking to clears some space in the squad, and apparently getting players signed up already. It's a cause for optimism, IMO.

Also, we've played pretty well recently, with a supposed shit team. Add Wilshere back into that midfield, and a couple of quality siginings, I don't see why we won't be challenging next year.

We have been challenging over the last few years, this season being different for all kinds of reasons, but ironically, quite enjoyable.

I see more in this current side which leads me to believe they won't fall apart under pressure if we're going for a trophy.

But if I'm optimistic, it doesn't make me stupid.

I knew we'd get beat on Saturday. It was predictable after such a good run of form and luck. It happens to every team.

[Flavs]

We are the 3rd/4th best team in Britain despite being really shit? Seems great to me. Could be a lot worse, look at Liverpool for instance

[Flavs]

Also the two choices in the poll are just ridiculous, a lot like your face.

[Grebbo]

No

[Coney]

What is the point of this thread? We've had this discussion already. Oh - I know, we lost one game after a run of 7 wins so it is time to come out of the woodword and attack.

[Kano]

What is the point of this thread? We've had this discussion already. Oh - I know, we lost one game after a run of 7 wins so it is time to come out of the woodword and attack.

well of course, just look at the arsehole starting the thread.

still not quite as ridiculous as his last rvp thread but for such a massive rim goblin, he gives it his best shot.

[Flavs]

well of course, just look at the arsehole starting the thread.

still not quite as ridiculous as his last rvp thread but for such a massive rim goblin, he gives it his best shot.


Oh you bitch you

[GP]

I'm surprised he hasn't logged on with one of his other accounts yet so he can agree with himself.

[Letters]

I'm surprised he hasn't logged on with one of his other accounts yet so he can agree with himself.

I agree



:ninja:

[Joker]

No surprise that Terry Tuffnutz comes on and abuses me for trying to get a discussion going. If you hadn't noticed, in my original post I did put the other side's viewpoint across as well (that radical change could be damaging)

I don't understand how the pro-Wenger brigade are allowed to abuse those mildly critical of the way things are going, calling us "rim goblins" and "arseholes" and yet none of the moderators even have a quiet word with them to get them to stop. Yet if any of the so called "pessimists" respond I bet they'd get a stern warning.

Seriously, unless the moderators tell certain posters to stop with the childish abuse, you're going to end up with a forum of about 5 posters constantly posting about how everything is rosy in the Arsenal garden.

And it's a bit rich of GP to be talking about multiple accounts, when he created another account on the old GW to abuse Zim.

[Flavs]

calling us "rim goblins"


:haha:

[Flavs]

I know the manager and the board view 4th place as the holy grail of football, the be all and end all when it comes to sporting achievement. However, for the fans, this sort of narrow financial determinism is depressing, and I know many people who have said they'd prefer to drop out of the top 4, if it meant having to rebuild from bottom up, as it may lead to a loss of many established players (who have failed to step up to the plate over the last 5 years), the manager leaving and perhaps even change in the boardroom, especially if Stan feels a club without the Champions League revenues is not worth "investing" in. I think this is the only way we'll succeed in the long run tbh.

However, there are others who think that such an upheaval will see us languish in mid-table for a long time, and that continuity is the way forward, and that once FIFA's financial fair play regulations are put in place, it will create a level playing field allowing our "prudent" business style to reap dividends.

What do you think?

it should be somewhere in the middle, the manager needs replacing i think most would agree with that but if a tactical noob like Wenger can get this lot into 3rd while using about a 3rd of the team then i don't see why a more tactically aware manager or even a man motivator couldn't take them higher. Its all fine lines in football, most of which we have been on the wrong side of recently, maybe a new manager would help push us the other way.

No way should we rip everything up and start again though, that would be death for a club like us. I definitely want to see what a different manager could do with these players, even the dead ducks but i wouldn't want us to lose our status for that. The concern i do have is that Wenger will move upstairs and we will get some monkey in to dance to his organ, that would be worse than him staying.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

What is the point of this thread? We've had this discussion already. Oh - I know, we lost one game after a run of 7 wins so it is time to come out of the woodword and attack.

I agree, we lose one game and the some people with posts hailing our shitness, how we are the worst team in the country even though we stand thitd in the league on the same points as a team who were not so long ago being touted as a serious threat to Manchester and playing the most entertaining football in the country.

Now I do not claim that this season has been a success, we have still lost games to teams we shouldnt ie lat Saturday but come on we all know the team is still a project and a lot needs to be done.
Nor am I Wengers biggest fan. . .I will not make him walk the plank but I wont be sad if a new direction means saying goodbye to him.

[GP]

Also, people need to stop talking about the 'Pro-Wenger brigade'

It does not exist.

[Letters]

Also, people need to stop talking about the 'Pro-Wenger brigade'

It does not exist.

there are clearly a variety of opinions about Wenger but I've not seen anyone on here opine that Wenger is a genius whose decisions should not be questioned. Pretty much everyone on here has said at one time or another that he Wenger should have been sacked over the last few years. Some people go too far in their vilification of him however, descending into personal abuse aimed at him or ridiculous hyperbole. We're in 3rd ffs, it's not as if he's taken us to the brink of relegation.

[Niall_Quinn]

Rigged and stupid poll. Where's the option that says let's build on what we have because in all honesty and leaving all the bullshit aside, 3rd is a pretty damn spectacular result for this squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm surprised he hasn't logged on with one of his other accounts yet so he can agree with himself.

I have, you just weren't paying attention.

[Kano]

Also, people need to stop talking about the 'Pro-Wenger brigade'

It does not exist.

well it's just gay really.

'pro wenger' 'pessimists'

oh grow a fucking pair for gods sake.

[GP]

well it's just gay really.

'pro wenger' 'pessimists'

oh grow a fucking pair for gods sake.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No offence but IMO you're kidding yourself, I think little will change in the summer and that's despite a poor season overall for us.

How is he kidding himself just because you don't have faith in the club don't mean anyone else does not. no one knows what will happen in the summer unless you have a crystal ball.

So what the past have been the same no way to know if this will or not.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Also, people need to stop talking about the 'Pro-Wenger brigade'

It does not exist.

Just some nonsese Joker made up to make himself feel better. Another Stupid thread by this guy.

[GP]

Just some nonsese Joker made up to make himself feel better. Another Stupid thread by this guy.

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

This whole pro-wenger or pessimist thing is just +1 fodder for the faceless WUMs that we really are.

In real life if I'm talking to someone about Arsenal and they hold a different view to me, I don't bait them or try and mock their opinion. On here we're all guilty of poking fun at each other in an effort to, err, I dunno, win the internet?

When we do well Letters people feel the need to open their match reaction posts laughing at those who doubted the team. When we fuck up Zim people come out of the woodwork and try to say I told you so.

[Özim]

How is he kidding himself just because you don't have faith in the club don't mean anyone else does not. no one knows what will happen in the summer unless you have a crystal ball.

So what the past have been the same no way to know if this will or not.
I like to look at patterns that might exist, in this case 6 years of the same cr*p, that's enough to convince me nothing will change. It's the same every year to be honest, people thinking this and that has finally changed, when has it actually happened?

A Leopard doesn't change it's spots, especially if they've been superglued on.

[Özim]

You may be right. I've seen a few signs recently which give me hope and I'm not going to over-react to one poor result, every team gets those from time to time. If we go on our 3rd poor run of the season then it will be fatal to our chances of a top 4 finish and show that the recent excellent run has been yet another false dawn. If we finish strongly, get a top 4 finish, sign Podolski nice and early, get RvP signed up and do some more decent business in the transfer market then maybe things will change for the better.

We'll see.
Do you know how many games we've lost in the league so far?

9 in all, that's not a good record, despite a few decent games recently, we've also had some mighty embarrassing results this season. The end of season runs we sometimes put together when we're out of competitions don't really convince me, we've done it before and all it's led to is Wenger harping on about them and using them as a reason to change very little. Effectively in Wenger's head everything before February has been erased, it's happened before.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I like to look at patterns that might exist, in this case 6 years of the same cr*p, that's enough to convince me nothing will change. It's the same every year to be honest, people thinking this and that has finally changed, when has it actually happened?

A Leopard doesn't change it's spots, especially if they've been superglued on.

Thats up to you and if you feel that way thats your business but don't make the rest of the fans fools or mean they have to be kidding themselves because they want to believe in thier team.

You can't change the past but you can the future. A new season for me is a new start and i will get behind the team in august instead of slagging them off at every opprotunity or wait for them to loose so i can gloat.

What happend in the past is the past none os us can change it but the club can change the way the club is run in the future.

Not saying mega changes will be made but i can always hope they will and have that belief they will.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I know the manager and the board view 4th place as the holy grail of football, the be all and end all when it comes to sporting achievement. However, for the fans, this sort of narrow financial determinism is depressing, and I know many people who have said they'd prefer to drop out of the top 4, if it meant having to rebuild from bottom up, as it may lead to a loss of many established players (who have failed to step up to the plate over the last 5 years), the manager leaving and perhaps even change in the boardroom, especially if Stan feels a club without the Champions League revenues is not worth "investing" in. I think this is the only way we'll succeed in the long run tbh.

However, there are others who think that such an upheaval will see us languish in mid-table for a long time, and that continuity is the way forward, and that once FIFA's financial fair play regulations are put in place, it will create a level playing field allowing our "prudent" business style to reap dividends.

What do you think?

Finishing outside the top 4 will not bring any change it makes not diffrence. PHW has said even if we finish 5th we'd be ok, Wenger won't be sacked so nothing will change that much.

We get out the top 4 now we have big trouble getting back into it.

[LDG]

Do you know how many games we've lost in the league so far?

9 in all, that's not a good record, despite a few decent games recently, we've also had some mighty embarrassing results this season. The end of season runs we sometimes put together when we're out of competitions don't really convince me, we've done it before and all it's led to is Wenger harping on about them and using them as a reason to change very little. Effectively in Wenger's head everything before February has been erased, it's happened before.

I think that's a bit unfair even from you. I don't think AW has forgotten those defeats at all. In fact, you listen to him after the game on Saturday, you'll know he said it wasn't good enough, and that we can't be complacent.

I don't think anyone is under any illusion that things need changing at the club, but as things clearly did change after the defeats to Milan and Sunderland, there is room for a little optimism that we might actually be trying to lay to waste the problems we've had for some time now.

We've all been over the old ground of collapses etc Espcially the last few years, where we really should have been winning something. I don't think it was the quality of the players we had, but very much about the same mistakes, the mentality and the poor attitude.

That's why most fans were up in arms with Wenger, me included, to sort it out.

Whilst I don't think we have the quality we did (hence the 9 defeats), I do see a better attitude...and for now, I'm happy to see a team playing to win, playing for the shirt, and battling. We just need to supliment that attitude with some quality in the summer.

It doesn't excuse Saturday, but I don't hold the opinion that we should win every single game until the end of the season....as it just ain't EVER gonna happen. For anyone....

[Cripps_orig]

I dont want us to finish out of the top 4 in that i dont want us to lose or drop points in any way.

However if we did finish 5th or more likely 6th then would i be as upset about it as i would have been before Wenger turned shite? Probably not.

If its for the greater good then so be it

[Niall_Quinn]

This whole pro-wenger or pessimist thing is just +1 fodder for the faceless WUMs that we really are.

In real life if I'm talking to someone about Arsenal and they hold a different view to me, I don't bait them or try and mock their opinion. On here we're all guilty of poking fun at each other in an effort to, err, I dunno, win the internet?

When we do well Letters people feel the need to open their match reaction posts laughing at those who doubted the team. When we fuck up Zim people come out of the woodwork and try to say I told you so.

I told everyone you'd write a post like that! :sulk:

[Niall_Quinn]

Who voted in this shitty poll? Own up!

[fakeyank]

IF it means that Arsene Wenger will be moved on or we have major changes in the footballing aspects of the game, I am all for us dropping out of the top 4. I am sick of us making the 2nd round, QF's of CL's knowing that unless we get the greatest draw in CL, we will be defeated the moment we face a half decent team.

However it is highly unlikely or should I say impossible that AW will be sacked or that he will walk, so I say that I want us in the top 4.

[Niall_Quinn]

IF it means that Arsene Wenger will be moved on or we have major changes in the footballing aspects of the game, I am all for us dropping out of the top 4. I am sick of us making the 2nd round, QF's of CL's knowing that unless we get the greatest draw in CL, we will be defeated the moment we face a half decent team.

However it is highly unlikely or should I say impossible that AW will be sacked or that he will walk, so I say that I want us in the top 4.

The spuds want us to lose and drop out of the top 4 too. Which is funny because they'll be the ones dropping out.

[Coney]

The Joker want us to lose and drop out of the top 4 too. Which is funny because they'll be the ones dropping out.

Fixed it for you.

[Özim]

I don't want us to drop out of the top 4, however when I watch the CL every season I'm left wondering why the hell everyone harps on about this shite competition, the group stages are largely a bore and in reality only the knockout stages bring any real excitement (at which point we always get knocked out disappointingly).

This competition would be much better as a straight knockout tournament like in the old days, that's when you would get to see some shock results.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't want us to drop out of the top 4, however when I watch the CL every season I'm left wondering why the hell everyone harps on about this shite competition, the group stages are largely a bore and in reality only the knockout stages bring any real excitement (at which point we always get knocked out disappointingly).

This competition would be much better as a straight knockout tournament like in the old days, that's when you would get to see some shock results.

Usually one decent game crops up. This year it was Milan, last was Barca. We lose but we usually go down fighting (and being cheated out of it by some **** ref)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't want us to drop out of the top 4, however when I watch the CL every season I'm left wondering why the hell everyone harps on about this shite competition, the group stages are largely a bore and in reality only the knockout stages bring any real excitement (at which point we always get knocked out disappointingly).

This competition would be much better as a straight knockout tournament like in the old days, that's when you would get to see some shock results.

If it was still two legged, then no you probably wouldn't see many shock results.

[Kano]

valencia, bayer leverkusen, arsenal, porto and monaco all been in the final over the past ten years

def no surprises in the comp anymore

[Özim]

If it was still two legged, then no you probably wouldn't see many shock results.
I disagree, the away goals rule means big clubs are more likely to lose, particularly in the early stages when some teams are unknown quantities. The group stages really give you several chances to get it right.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I disagree, the away goals rule means big clubs are more likely to lose, particularly in the early stages when some teams are unknown quantities. The group stages really give you several chances to get it right.

It gives the bigger teams another chance to put it right anyway. In any case, you complained about Schalke being in the semi-finals last year given how limp a challenge they posed to Man Utd but theoretically for you your revamp of the competitions would have teams of that quality progressing further on a more regular basis. Doesn't really make any sense.

More often than not they'll make it through the early rounds and I can't see how UEFA would allow it to be a open draw from the beginning given the huge TV rights that are available now (that weren't in its previous iteration).

[Kano]

apart from the forest and villa wins, from 1972 to 92, there were no real shock winners.

as i listed above, the 'smaller' teams have had chances to win in the final but haven't taken it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

IF it means that Arsene Wenger will be moved on or we have major changes in the footballing aspects of the game, I am all for us dropping out of the top 4. I am sick of us making the 2nd round, QF's of CL's knowing that unless we get the greatest draw in CL, we will be defeated the moment we face a half decent team.

However it is highly unlikely or should I say impossible that AW will be sacked or that he will walk, so I say that I want us in the top 4.


I dont want us to finish out of the top 4 in that i dont want us to lose or drop points in any way.

However if we did finish 5th or more likely 6th then would i be as upset about it as i would have been before Wenger turned shite? Probably not.

If its for the greater good then so be it

Agree with both idealy id want us to be in top 4 but if we finished 5th id not be too upset like i would have been in preivous seasons.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't want us to drop out of the top 4, however when I watch the CL every season I'm left wondering why the hell everyone harps on about this shite competition, the group stages are largely a bore and in reality only the knockout stages bring any real excitement (at which point we always get knocked out disappointingly).

This competition would be much better as a straight knockout tournament like in the old days, that's when you would get to see some shock results.

Your right Zimm and i feel the same way the CL has become a biore competition but the group stages of the Europa league would be far worse lol.

Like you say they need to change the CL format to make it interesting again.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

This whole pro-wenger or pessimist thing is just +1 fodder for the faceless WUMs that we really are.

In real life if I'm talking to someone about Arsenal and they hold a different view to me, I don't bait them or try and mock their opinion. On here we're all guilty of poking fun at each other in an effort to, err, I dunno, win the internet?

When we do well Letters people feel the need to open their match reaction posts laughing at those who doubted the team. When we fuck up Zim people come out of the woodwork and try to say I told you so.

Another top post mate and if you don't mind I'll extrapolate it to the "Good" v "Evil" theme, which i think is what has really always played out on here and how some posters justify their "acceptable" animosity to certain posters views.

For one second lets imagine both parties now get what they now claim they all want- AW moves upstairs and a manager touted by the anti brigade gets appointed. Let's say he starts off well, the Zimmites become the "I told you so" good guys and the Letterites try not to react to the provacation and generally be happy. But then after a great start things start going wrong for the new manager and the club in general, which camp would you think would be likely to soliloquise about the good old days under AW and how we may have been to hasty to push him upstairs (effectively undermining the new manager and the club)? Role reversal I hear

It's funny and as you pointed out totally ridiculous as even though we all claim to be saying the same thing ATM this msg board is still totally fractured- I just hope it stays on the internet and doesn't pour out to the stands one day. Again MO, a great sensiblle post.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

And back on Topic- I really don't care whether we are in the CL or not, in fact I believe I'm begining to detest the competition.

For example I derived no joy when we outlasted the mancs in it or even earlier when we made it through the qualifiers. The last time I really looked forward to a season of European football was the year after our Barca final mainly because I felt we were robbed and was looking forward to a real chance of us righting the wrong and winning it. Once Henry left at the end of that season and with Wengers philosophy on overdrive then, I knew we stood no chance of ever being crowned Kings of Europe and ending the 50 something year wait. Something prolly died in me ATM.

So really, there is little difference to me in finishing 2nd or 14th under this manager- all I take for granted is we be above relegation and above the spuds.

If finishing 14th will bring a new dawn, then I'm all for it, as this merry-go-round is getting truly nauseating.

[Power n Glory]

Another top post mate and if you don't mind I'll extrapolate it to the "Good" v "Evil" theme, which i think is what has really always played out on here and how some posters justify their "acceptable" animosity to certain posters views.

For one second lets imagine both parties now get what they now claim they all want- AW moves upstairs and a manager touted by the anti brigade gets appointed. Let's say he starts off well, the Zimmites become the "I told you so" good guys and the Letterites try not to react to the provacation and generally be happy. But then after a great start things start going wrong for the new manager and the club in general, which camp would you think would be likely to soliloquise about the good old days under AW and how we may have been to hasty to push him upstairs (effectively undermining the new manager and the club)? Role reversal I hear

It's funny and as you pointed out totally ridiculous as even though we all claim to be saying the same thing ATM this msg board is still totally fractured- I just hope it stays on the internet and doesn't pour out to the stands one day. Again MO, a great sensiblle post.

Good posts but it's gone beyond that. Joker posts up a legitimate question to spark a debate and then Terry and Coney jump straight in with insults and aggression. I'm pretty gobsmacked because it isn't neccessary and nothing offensive prior to that was posted. We've had simailar threads before and hasn't sparked such reactions. It's getting to the point where certain posters views are being instantly dismissed even if they make a valid point.

[Kano]

i'm sure we can all stop the crying for a minute, sip down some good ole man up juice and get on with typing meaningless fodder on an internet forum where no real person can ever really be hurt

can they?

[Cripps_orig]

i'm sure we can all stop the crying for a minute, sip down some good ole man up juice and get on with typing meaningless fodder on an internet forum where no real person can ever really be hurt

can they?http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2982819/Facebook-bully-victims-suicide.html

[Kano]

yeah but facebook is for losers. doesn't count

[GP]

Anyone who allows themselves to be bullied on the internet deserves to die anyway.

[Letters]

Letterites :lol:

I always wanted to start a religion.

Me :bow:

[GP]

The Leader! :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Letterites :lol:

I always wanted to start a religion.

Me :bow:

I'd have called them Letterheads, personally.

[Coney]

I'd have called them Letterheads, personally.

They've all gone postal.