So, how do WE win the league?

[Ernesto]

There is understandable envy directed towards Manchester City from Gooners. Understandable, in that we're winners, and it wasn't so long ago that we were celebrating a league success. While footballing personnel changes, the fans never do. Successes, as well as disappointments, stay fresh in the memory.

I put the question to you guys and gals- how do we as a club go on to win the league in the current climate? With an abundance of wealth at Manchester City, a monetary backlash expected at United and Chelsea, and a board who are, seemingly, happy with a 3rd/4th place finish, it now seems a million miles away. Seeing that clock tick down at the Etihad, from 44 years to the 0 years since they enjoyed a league victory, made me wonder. Just how long is it until we'll experience the same feeling again? And, more importantly, how will we get there? Stupid foreign investment? A new manager to tinker with the current squad? An influx of players who are inherently "fans" of the Arsenal?

From a personal perspective, it all seems rather bleak at the moment. :(

[GP]

You're mistaking envy for utter contempt and disgust.

Good thread, though.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Resist the temptation of taking their money, be more flexible and don't have a defence that concedes 20 goals more than the title winners did. All in that itself is no guarantee but it'd give us a better chance than otherwise.

And bleak? The euphoria of yesterday soon dies down.

[KSE Comedy Club]

:ilt:

[Niall_Quinn]

The team must accept Jesus as their saviour. They must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Then we will win.

[Power n Glory]

A new manager with fresh ideas. We lost silly games this year against teams we should be beating. Tally that all up and we'd have been in with a shout for the title. We need consistency and that winning mentality. That's key to a title winning side. Under Wenger, we won't get that.

[Flavs]

You're mistaking envy for utter contempt and disgust.

What he said

[Flavs]

We could instantly make 10 points by not making stupid, schoolboy defensive errors

(This will be helped by having a full pre-season together and putting some stirrups on Vermaelen)

We should have 2 fit full backs at all times, that should stop us losing all games in a month

We should clear out all the useless shit on the fringe of the squad and get some solid back ups in

Keep Arteta fit

Shoot from outside the box

I think we would be pushing 85 points with that lot, we wont be far away then will we.

[IBK]

1. Keep our key players fit. When we had the services of Arteta; Mertesacker and Walcott we didn't look anything like the flakey team that limped over the line. Hell - maybe we will even be able to enjoy the services of Wilshere, Diaby and a fit GK nextseason?

2. Buy a proper DM.

3. Get our transfer business done early; prepare properly for next season and make a good start.

4. Don't obsess about what the rich ****s are doing, just look to ourselves.

Come on you Gunners :scarf:

[Xhaka Can’t]

What he said

What they said.

[Marc Overmars]

Consistency is key and you need a good squad now. United and City don't go on silly runs of 1 win in 6 like we do.

Keep our best players and upgrade on the deadwood with some hungry players who want to prove a point and fight for their place. At the moment we have a decent first 11 but that's it, just 2-3 injuries and the whole system goes to pot and performances nosedive. It's an absolute miracle that RVP played every single game this year, I dread to think where our season would have gone had he missed even as little as say 5 games.

Of course we could also do without the ridiculous fuck ups at the back. Hopefully Bould will work to tighten up that area.

[Power n Glory]

The transfer windows system is unfair anyway. For things to be truly fair, they'd have to introduce some sort of wage structure and draft system similar to the American sports. Even without City, we still have the divide been clubs like ours and smaller clubs who have no chance of winning the league unless there is some sort of takeover.

I don't hold anything against City. The whole system in general needs a shake up.

[Joker]

We need a new manager with fresh ideas who's not so obsessed with the balance sheet and acting the accountant. Tactically Wenger's been found wanting a lot this season, which has no doubt cost us quite a few points. When we throw away leads late on in games, the manager has to take some responsibility for it because we are so utterly disorganised at times when defending a lead. Wenger's become too stubborn for his good, pursuing ideas and his way of thinking which has failed to deliver for a long time now.

However, changing the manager won't be enough because we need a board who are willing to invest in the team and aren't purely motivated by dividends. This may be controversial but I wouldn't mind a bigger role for Usmanov tbh. Yes, he's an Oligarch etc etc, but the way modern football is nowadays, we can't really turn down his money. Moreover, the current board are not made up of people who care about trophies and think of Arsenal FC as purely a private enterprise, existing to maximise value for shareholders. Perhaps an Oligarch's motives would inadvertently coincide with the fans, because they want the prestige and status that comes with owning a successful football club, so he'll be pushing for trophies even if it's not for altruistic reasons.

[Grebbo]

1. Spend £100m on some quality. Striker, left back, DM, AM.

2. Play 4-5-1 with TWO holding midfielders like City do. Our team defending is fucking shit and the only way to solve it (and the cheapest way) is to have a proper DM along side Song. I guess that's where M'vila comes in.

[Joker]

The transfer windows system is unfair anyway. For things to be truly fair, they'd have to introduce some sort of wage structure and draft system similar to the American sports. Even without City, we still have the divide been clubs like ours and smaller clubs who have no chance of winning the league unless there is some sort of takeover.

I don't hold anything against City. The whole system in general needs a shake up.

Exactly, I don't condone the way football is nowadays, which is why complaining about a symptom (Man City's wealth) doesn't do anything about the actual cause. If you look at Championship clubs, they complain about the change in regulations that has made it easier for top Premiership clubs to poach their younger players. Teams at the lower end of the Premiership complain about unfair TV deals and the Champions League cash-cow that simply perpetuates inequality. I'm all for changing the system to something that is both more meritocratic and egalitarian.

[Flavs]

oh oh also, i would replace some of our "passenger foriegners" with players from he teams who went down. Seriously look:

Chamakh - Steven Fletcher

Benayoun - Mark Davies

Vela/Ju - Hoilett/Jarvis

Flapiankski - Hennessey

Also who knew Yakubu was only 29??? Although i think that is in what we would call "Kanu years"

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think we need a change of Managers and more ambition from the Board. There is the capacity at this Club - even in this financially doped environment to challenge for the Title along with picking up the odd bit of Cup silverware.

We need to make full use of the resources the Club generates rather than banking them. And the money we do spend, needs to be done in a better way. We spend far too little in replenishing/refreshing the squad and far too much on wages. The wage structure cannot be changed overnight, but it needs to change. We spend enough to pay 3-4 marquee players and should do that, with lower wages elsewhere in the squad in line with what is paid out elsewhere. Make players earn the big money contracts rather than paying on the prospect of them earning them and trying to keep everyone, regardless of ability in such a narrow and expensive salary band.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We need a new manager with fresh ideas who's not so obsessed with the balance sheet and acting the accountant. Tactically Wenger's been found wanting a lot this season, which has no doubt cost us quite a few points. When we throw away leads late on in games, the manager has to take some responsibility for it because we are so utterly disorganised at times when defending a lead. Wenger's become too stubborn for his good, pursuing ideas and his way of thinking which has failed to deliver for a long time now.

However, changing the manager won't be enough because we need a board who are willing to invest in the team and aren't purely motivated by dividends. This may be controversial but I wouldn't mind a bigger role for Usmanov tbh. Yes, he's an Oligarch etc etc, but the way modern football is nowadays, we can't really turn down his money. Moreover, the current board are not made up of people who care about trophies and think of Arsenal FC as purely a private enterprise, existing to maximise value for shareholders. Perhaps an Oligarch's motives would inadvertently coincide with the fans, because they want the prestige and status that comes with owning a successful football club, so he'll be pushing for trophies even if it's not for altruistic reasons.

I agree with a lot there, but we don't need Usmanov's money, we just need to fully employ the resources the Club generates and do it in a more effective way.

[Letters]

I don't think we can win the league in the current climate. I do think we could and should be a lot closer though.
A change of manager won't change things as the board as as to blame, if not more, for the lack of investment as Wenger IMO.
In the circumstances we've done well to finish 3rd but we shouldn't be so far away.

[Cripps_orig]

New manager is the simplest solution

Also fixing our biggest problem would help, the injuries. Its ridiculous the likes of Wilshere is out for the whole season with an injury that was supposed to keep him out for a few weeks. Sagna breaks the same leg i think from just controlling a ball clearly proving it wasnt healed. Theres the Diaby situation. Fair enough hes a bit shit but that isnt the point.

Bringing in quality players instead of run of the mill Pub Team players/French Africans/youngsters with potential cos we havent got the time to wait for them to come good.

Get a killer instinct. We dont score enough goals for the chances we create.

Plan B. Wengeritis football rarely works.

Go back to 4-4-2. 4-3-3/4-5-1 has been a failure. 4-4-2 is what we won all the trophies under.

Better mentality. We crumble under the slightest of pressure and we all know how we are after a big defeat.

Bring in Usmanov. If you cant beat them, join them

[LDG]

We beat City at our gaff. No reason to suggest we can't compete with them. Like everyone says, it's about consistency.

We lack solid and reliable back-ups. And we miss another one or two with real quality. Game changers, when the chips are down.

Get rid of the deadwood, and employ some more experience, and let some of the gifted youth off the lead.

[Niall_Quinn]

WHICH new manager are you all talking about? Philip brown? Fat Sam? Pep is having a break, Jose is staying put, Kean isnt available. Who will it be?

[Niall_Quinn]

We beat City at our gaff. No reason to suggest we can't compete with them. Like everyone says, it's about consistency.

We lack solid and reliable back-ups. And we miss another one or two with real quality. Game changers, when the chips are down.

Get rid of the deadwood, and employ some more experience, and let some of the gifted youth off the lead.

Same as every other year then?

[KSE Comedy Club]

The team must accept Jesus as their saviour. They must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Then we will win.Im not sure Im entirely happy with that tbh.




Oh, Jesus, thats alright then.

[Joker]

The problem is, every season we talk about needing to replenish the squad with real quality, getting rid of the deadwood and completing our transfer business early, and Wenger/the board make the same mistakes over and over again.

The early signing of Podolski was positive though, and if we sign M'Vila soon as well that'll be encouraging and at least some evidence that we're changing our ways.

[Flavs]

No way will they get rid of Wenger now

[LDG]

I do get the feeling from Wenger's comments about "one day I'll write it all in a book", that he's actually telling the board, "put up, or shut up".

I think he wants a few quid to spend. I think he wanted business done earlier last season. And I think he'll get his wish this year.

That said, it remains to be seen whether he'll be clinical enough. If he's ruthless, and does what each and every one of us believe is right for the team (let's leave aside him resigning), then there's no reason to suggest we can't challenge.

I'm not sure he's good enough to win us the title anymore. That said, I've not seen him have a proper spending spree....ever...

[Kano]

WHICH new manager are you all talking about? Philip brown? Fat Sam? Pep is having a break, Jose is staying put, Kean isnt available. Who will it be?

not sure but who was wenger before he came here - it doesn't always have to be the obvious choice.

[Flavs]

Oh and also, if RvP starts pissing about with his contract sell him. God forbid we end up with a scenario like Nasri last year.

In fact give him a date and if he hasn't signed it by then get him on the transfer list.

[Kano]

Oh and also, if RvP starts pissing about with his contract sell him. God forbid we end up with a scenario like Nasri last year.

In fact give him a date and if he hasn't signed it by then get him on the transfer list.
if anything it sounds like wenger will hold him to the contract rather than the other way round.

[Cripps_orig]

Buy any players we are going to buy before pre season starts

And then anyone else we buy after that can be cover for the inevitable injuries we will get during pre season

[Flavs]

I'm not sure he's good enough to win us the title anymore. That said, I've not seen him have a proper spending spree....ever...

He spent £50mil in 2 days at the start of the season!

But yeah i take your point. The strange thing for me is he is quite cut-throat when it comes to getting rid of players most of the time yet the kids are still here, i do wonder if no-one wants to buy them.

If you think back to Ade, Hleb, Petit, Vieira and so on, when he decided they were gone there was no going back, Merson and Freddie as well.

[Flavs]

Buy any players we are going to buy before pre season starts

And then anyone else we buy after that can be cover for the inevitable injuries we will get during pre season

We risk them getting injured at the Euro's then though...

[AKBapologist]

Spend a billion pounds seems to be the way most clubs win leagues these days.

Personally, cups are a more realistic target, and even for those, we need a much bigger squad with +5 none injury prone players of significant quality.

[Coney]

We beat City at our gaff. No reason to suggest we can't compete with them. Like everyone says, it's about consistency.

We lack solid and reliable back-ups. And we miss another one or two with real quality. Game changers, when the chips are down.

Get rid of the deadwood, and employ some more experience, and let some of the gifted youth off the lead.

That, for me, is the most frustrating thing. We can usually hold our own and often get a result against these top teams. The frustration is the points we dropped against sides who, given our general table position, we should be pissing on.

To an extent I blame Wenger for being blind to that aspect of the PL. When we are playing top sides and the game is generally about footballing skill, we do well. What we need (and what the manus and chavs tend to have) is a few hard cases who can do the thug play that you need when playing the neandertals in the bottom of the league. Each side we play needs something a bit different and we need to flex our approach to deal with that. When we had people like Adams and Keown who knew how to 'deal' with certain people, we got those results that make the difference between being a winning side and an almost also-ran. I think those kind of players in the team also helps give the overall squad some backbone. It is not just experience, it is attitude. People like the Ox and Wilshere should be regulars simply because they don't lie down (till their legs are broken) and will fight as hard as it takes to make something happen.

If we can get the squad fit over the summer, we don't actually need to buy in that many players - lose the loser dross (Chamakh and the like) - another 2 experienced strikers (Podolski + 1) and most important is someone who can do the kind of DM work that we missed when Arteta was in the team so that we can cover when he is injured and also give him a rest now and then. A backup keeper, of course.

But overall, as has happened year after year - where I think Wenger is getting it wrong - is these easy matches. Look at the last few seasons and it is the draws and occasional defeats against the bottom teams that have cost us a chance of the title. Things like 8-2 at OT might be embarrassing but they are not the cause of our failure to win the title. Those are one-offs. The grind of the draws and worse against supposedly crap teams is what kills us every time.

[Niall_Quinn]

not sure but who was wenger before he came here - it doesn't always have to be the obvious choice.

Wenger was still Wenger before he came here. I know it doesn't have to be obvious but is Stan or one of the old buffers going to find a replacement that suits their needs? Because that's what it will be all about. If they had wanted trophies rather than 4th place finishes they would have invested. Not sure why people even mention Wenger, there's zero possibility of him leaving. He's the ideal man for our board, can't think of anoyone else who could do the job. Make them money AND finish in the CL spots.

[Marc Overmars]

But overall, as has happened year after year - where I think Wenger is getting it wrong - is these easy matches. Look at the last few seasons and it is the draws and occasional defeats against the bottom teams that have cost us a chance of the title. Things like 8-2 at OT might be embarrassing but they are not the cause of our failure to win the title. Those are one-offs. The grind of the draws and worse against supposedly crap teams is what kills us every time.

Yes. I think we lack a lot of match savvy and it's how lesser sides manage to trump us 1 too many times to be acceptable. Our defence is awful as a unit, they're often cut open within the opening 10 minutes of most matches. We've been saying it for years but we really need to get back to the basics and sharpen up.

[Power n Glory]

That, for me, is the most frustrating thing. We can usually hold our own and often get a result against these top teams. The frustration is the points we dropped against sides who, given our general table position, we should be pissing on.

To an extent I blame Wenger for being blind to that aspect of the PL. When we are playing top sides and the game is generally about footballing skill, we do well. What we need (and what the manus and chavs tend to have) is a few hard cases who can do the thug play that you need when playing the neandertals in the bottom of the league. Each side we play needs something a bit different and we need to flex our approach to deal with that. When we had people like Adams and Keown who knew how to 'deal' with certain people, we got those results that make the difference between being a winning side and an almost also-ran. I think those kind of players in the team also helps give the overall squad some backbone. It is not just experience, it is attitude. People like the Ox and Wilshere should be regulars simply because they don't lie down (till their legs are broken) and will fight as hard as it takes to make something happen.

If we can get the squad fit over the summer, we don't actually need to buy in that many players - lose the loser dross (Chamakh and the like) - another 2 experienced strikers (Podolski + 1) and most important is someone who can do the kind of DM work that we missed when Arteta was in the team so that we can cover when he is injured and also give him a rest now and then. A backup keeper, of course.

But overall, as has happened year after year - where I think Wenger is getting it wrong - is these easy matches. Look at the last few seasons and it is the draws and occasional defeats against the bottom teams that have cost us a chance of the title. Things like 8-2 at OT might be embarrassing but they are not the cause of our failure to win the title. Those are one-offs. The grind of the draws and worse against supposedly crap teams is what kills us every time.

I agree with the need to change tactics and needing to be more flexible, but we haven't been bullied by teams this season, just played off the park. That's the sad thing about it all. We haven't been bullied and kicked off the field like we've seen before, teams haven't taken advantage of us during set plays this year, we've been pretty solid in that area. Teams have just outplayed us and we've been open to counter attacks and sloppy play all season. More than anything, I think we've been exposed tactically and we're out of ideas. The way we play has to change. It it wasn't for RVP, we'd be far down that table.

[jelgoon]

New manager to tinker with the squad. We wont win the league ever again with this manager

[Coney]

I agree with the need to change tactics and needing to be more flexible, but we haven't been bullied by teams this season, just played off the park. That's the sad thing about it all. We haven't been bullied and kicked off the field like we've seen before, teams haven't taken advantage of us during set plays this year, we've been pretty solid in that area. Teams have just outplayed us and we've been open to counter attacks and sloppy play all season. More than anything, I think we've been exposed tactically and we're out of ideas. The way we play has to change. It it wasn't for RVP, we'd be far down that table.

Fair comment. I think perhaps as an extension, we need a bullying forward of the Drogba mould - where some skill but also brute force gets the player past the defence (or winning a penalty) when the chips are down. I think that is how the manus and chavs do it against the 'park the bus' teams while we take pot shots that just bounce of a solid defence. Attacking (hence mostly top sides) come forward and thus make space. Defensive (mostly bottom sides) fill the last third so our tappy-tappy finds it hard to get by.

[Boss]

As a few have said, there is no chance of winning the league while we have Wenger as manager. He's just not good enough, unfortunately. I do think we can challenge for the league, perhaps even strongly next year depending on what we do in the transfer market, but there is no chance of winning it.

[Letters]

As a few have said, there is no chance of winning the league while we have Wenger as manager. He's just not good enough, unfortunately. I do think we can challenge for the league, perhaps even strongly next year depending on what we do in the transfer market, but there is no chance of winning it.
Do you think we could reasonably have expected to do better than 3rd this year though?
I agree we should have been closer to the top 2 but City...well, who can compete with City? Utd did well to hang onto their coattails but when you can spend that sort of money it's difficult to stay with them.

[fakeyank]

New manager is the simplest solution

Also fixing our biggest problem would help, the injuries. Its ridiculous the likes of Wilshere is out for the whole season with an injury that was supposed to keep him out for a few weeks. Sagna breaks the same leg i think from just controlling a ball clearly proving it wasnt healed. Theres the Diaby situation. Fair enough hes a bit shit but that isnt the point.

Bringing in quality players instead of run of the mill Pub Team players/French Africans/youngsters with potential cos we havent got the time to wait for them to come good.

Get a killer instinct. We dont score enough goals for the chances we create.

Plan B. Wengeritis football rarely works.

Go back to 4-4-2. 4-3-3/4-5-1 has been a failure. 4-4-2 is what we won all the trophies under.

Better mentality. We crumble under the slightest of pressure and we all know how we are after a big defeat.

Bring in Usmanov. If you cant beat them, join them

Agree with everything except the last part. I think Arsenal as a club has decent resources monetarily to challenge for the domestic title. The manager definitely needs to go and we need some fresh ideas.

[Letters]

Agree with everything except the last part. I think Arsenal as a club has decent resources monetarily to challenge for the domestic title.
You keep saying this but how can we compete financially with City, Chelsea (who have billionaire backers) or Utd (who don't but whose income is far bigger than ours?)

[Cripps_orig]

Agree with everything except the last part. I think Arsenal as a club has decent resources monetarily to challenge for the domestic title. The manager definitely needs to go and we need some fresh ideas.Well we need a new board for sure.

A board that wont bend over for Wengers ways

[Niall_Quinn]

Well we need a new board for sure.

A board that wont bend over for Wengers ways

This confusion again, the board hires Wenger - it's not the other way around.

[fakeyank]

You keep saying this but how can we compete financially with City, Chelsea (who have billionaire backers) or Utd (who don't but whose income is far bigger than ours?)

I am not saying go head to head with City or Chelsea monetarily. I am saying, use existing resources more efficiently like Utd. Utd's income is bigger but so is their debt. Our board seems inept but so are theirs. The difference is in the managers way of working. While I admit that SAF is in a completely different league, I think a manager who doesnt want to settle for 4th would be a good start. Something that we definitely CAN do is have a better tactical manager. It has nothing to do with money.

I am asking AW to spend whatever we get in transfers from player sales and may be 10-15 million quid on top of that (if needed). Surely a club our size can do that and if the board is coming in the way of AW spending 10-15 million a season or just the money we make off of transfers, he should quit. I just do not see any two ways in this case. AW is not an accountant at AFC.. he should be responsible in his spending but his primary worry should not be how player sales will affect pre-tax/post tax profits!

[Letters]

I am not saying go head to head with City or Chelsea monetarily. I am saying, use existing resources more efficiently like Utd. Utd's income is bigger but so is their debt. Our board seems inept but so are theirs. The difference is in the managers way of working. While I admit that SAF is in a completely different league, I think a manager who doesnt want to settle for 4th would be a good start. Something that we definitely CAN do is have a better tactical manager. It has nothing to do with money.

I am asking AW to spend whatever we get in transfers from player sales and may be 10-15 million quid on top of that (if needed). Surely a club our size can do that and if the board is coming in the way of AW spending 10-15 million a season or just the money we make off of transfers, he should quit. I just do not see any two ways in this case. AW is not an accountant at AFC.. he should be responsible in his spending but his primarily worry should not be how player sales will affect pre-tax/post tax profits!
Fair enough :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

I am not saying go head to head with City or Chelsea monetarily. I am saying, use existing resources more efficiently like Utd. Utd's income is bigger but so is their debt. Our board seems inept but so are theirs. The difference is in the managers way of working. While I admit that SAF is in a completely different league, I think a manager who doesnt want to settle for 4th would be a good start. Something that we definitely CAN do is have a better tactical manager. It has nothing to do with money.

I am asking AW to spend whatever we get in transfers from player sales and may be 10-15 million quid on top of that (if needed). Surely a club our size can do that and if the board is coming in the way of AW spending 10-15 million a season or just the money we make off of transfers, he should quit. I just do not see any two ways in this case. AW is not an accountant at AFC.. he should be responsible in his spending and not worry how player sales will affect pre-tax/post tax profits!

We should have been able to spend what we earned plus A FORTUNE on top but Stan had to service a swamp of greedy leeches when he arrived. They sucked all the cash out for themselves and allowed none of it back into the team. These fat sucking sacks of blood and shit are the reason there's no investment. And Wenger's role has obviously been to make a profit with transfers. For whom? He gets paid anyway, who stands to gain from sucking the blood out of the team and the fans? Been here a million (billion) times with this argument but if you watch where the money is flowing it tells the real story. Some even say there HAS been investment but it was blown on silly wages. That's not true either because Arsenal adds everything down to the Christmas bonus paid to the tea lady into those calculations. What we could do with is for Stan to burn the leeches off and then let us all know what his plans are. If he plans to bleed the club like the last lot he'll say nothing I suppose. If he plans to put the sport back into the equation one indicator might be a clear out of crusty old antiques. I suppose we have to wait and give him a chance but if we see the likes of Peter Hill ****StainVampire and Chips AnalFuckWadGiantSuckingTurd in the boardroom come August (you know, "their sort") it will mean more of the same old shit. Keep a steady course and pump the cash out.

[AKBapologist]

It's funny, people getting pissed off about results against *newly promoted teams* (none of which got relegated btw) and clubs like wigan or stoke who happy out played or out muscled our nearest rivals.

The quality gap between 17th and 3rd this season has been the smallest I've seen, hell, even the notion of city or united going unbeaten was wishful thinking at best even before winter. Teams who massively outspent us like the Chav's and Pool cling on to cups whilst ruefully wondering, what the fuck now? Where's stamford bridge telling us that our manager is holding us back today?

Sure, last summer was fucking unforgivable, and even the nearest hint of complacency with transfers and I don't think he'll have a prayer with the supporters next season - but there seams to be a certain myopic belief amongst that because Wenger isn't SAF, he's automatically shit. He's got strengths and weaknesses, despite what people think, beyond injuries and lack of spending, the squad doesn't suffer the same problems season after season (compare set piece goals conceded with last season for example) - So in the season where Man City have categorically, without a doubt, proven that money is the most important factor in winning *trophies* (In a game incidentally, that followed the same pattern as ours, with similar defensive mistakes against 10 man newly promoted, would be relegation fodder QPR!!!!) - I'm prepared to give AW and the club a little bit of slack, prepared to treat 3rd as a trophy and enjoy all the privileges and bragging rights that come with it, whilst feeling hopeful about the future.

[Cripps_orig]

It's funny, people getting pissed off about results against *newly promoted teams* (none of which got relegated btw) and clubs like wigan or stoke who happy out played or out muscled our nearest rivals. What about our record v the relegated teams?

Didnt do the double over any of them, lost once and drew twice

Add that to Wigan and QPR beating us likewise Swansea, didnt beat Norwich at home

[AKBapologist]

What about our record v the relegated teams?

Didnt do the double over any of them, lost once and drew twice

Add that to Wigan and QPR beating us likewise Swansea, didnt beat Norwich at home
Given that Wigan went on a winning streak beating Spuds and United, whilst we got the same number of points from Swansea as city did this season - I'm not sure what your point is.

We didn't thrash Blackburn (7-1) Wolves (0-3) or Bolton (3-0) more than once this season? Neither did many teams tbf.

[Cripps_orig]

Given that Wigan went on a winning streak beating Spuds and United, whilst we got the same number of points from Swansea as city did this season - I'm not sure what your point is.

We didn't thrash Blackburn (7-1) Wolves (0-3) or Bolton (3-0) more than once this season? Neither did many teams tbf.City won/bought the title...

Nontheless couldnt give a monkes what other teams did against these teams, we need to be beating these pub teams to challenge cos we are less likely than either Manc club to beat the top teams.

Swansea beating Man City was seen as a shock all over the country. Them beating us was expected. Thats the difference

[AKBapologist]

That's my point, we're further away from the Manchester clubs than ever before. Probably a Aguro, yaya Toure, zaboleta and Tevez away (£100m's) Worse still, because of how evenly money gets distributed, the gap between top and bottom is smaller than ever. So yeah, given all those points we dropped and the fact we don't stream roll teams all season, it's a minor miracle we are were we were are.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Ollie the Optimist]

i think we have to keep wenger for one more season, i think getting rid of him will do more harm them good and will set us back. he has built up a fantastic team spirit this year, a team that actually cares that they play for us and what that shirt means. written off all season and we finish third. thats fantastic given our start. if they got rid of wenger now, that owuld mean straight away rvp would go, think he will stay with wenger. theo also and others.
saw a stat today that we were the team to recover the most points from losing posistions away from home this season, when have we said that for a while? there is a fight in this team more then other years, this team can really build and go on from here. we have a world class striker already signed, sounds like m'vila will be signed and others. wenger seems to have learnt his lesson.

next year will be a good year, i have seen enough this year to really make me believe in this team. wenger simply has too stay, will do more good with him then anyone else

[Xhaka Can’t]

i think we have to keep wenger for one more season,



Every year you say the same thing.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Every year you say the same thing.

yeah i do but just look at the spirit he has created this year. it would do more harm then good. we finally have a team that digs deep to win, just look at the celebrations of some of the goals, the whole team go mad. its means everything to them and that comes from wenger and rice. how would they feel to lose both of them? imho would do a lot of harm getting rid of him and set us back a long way

[Power n Glory]

yeah i do but just look at the spirit he has created this year. it would do more harm then good. we finally have a team that digs deep to win, just look at the celebrations of some of the goals, the whole team go mad. its means everything to them and that comes from wenger and rice. how would they feel to lose both of them? imho would do a lot of harm getting rid of him and set us back a long way

They'd celebrate under a new manager. It's football and that sort of emotion after such results doesn't start or end with the manager.

[Niall_Quinn]

Are we seriously discussing getting rid of the manager having just finished 3rd behind two billionaire clubs? A manager who only has a year left on his contract anyway? How should it be done? Public humiliation? Maybe lock him out and throw shit at him from the upper windows?

[AKBapologist]

Are we seriously discussing getting rid of the manager having just finished 3rd behind two billionaire clubs? A manager who only has a year left on his contract anyway? How should it be done? Public humiliation? Maybe lock him out and throw shit at him from the upper windows?Hanging or Electric chair tbh. Only way to be sure.

[Cripps_orig]

Are we seriously discussing getting rid of the manager having just finished 3rd behind two billionaire clubs? A manager who only has a year left on his contract anyway? How should it be done? Public humiliation? Maybe lock him out and throw shit at him from the upper windows?Sounds good

[Power n Glory]

It's funny, people getting pissed off about results against *newly promoted teams* (none of which got relegated btw) and clubs like wigan or stoke who happy out played or out muscled our nearest rivals.

The quality gap between 17th and 3rd this season has been the smallest I've seen, hell, even the notion of city or united going unbeaten was wishful thinking at best even before winter. Teams who massively outspent us like the Chav's and Pool cling on to cups whilst ruefully wondering, what the fuck now? Where's stamford bridge telling us that our manager is holding us back today?

Sure, last summer was fucking unforgivable, and even the nearest hint of complacency with transfers and I don't think he'll have a prayer with the supporters next season - but there seams to be a certain myopic belief amongst that because Wenger isn't SAF, he's automatically shit. He's got strengths and weaknesses, despite what people think, beyond injuries and lack of spending, the squad doesn't suffer the same problems season after season (compare set piece goals conceded with last season for example) - So in the season where Man City have categorically, without a doubt, proven that money is the most important factor in winning *trophies* (In a game incidentally, that followed the same pattern as ours, with similar defensive mistakes against 10 man newly promoted, would be relegation fodder QPR!!!!) - I'm prepared to give AW and the club a little bit of slack, prepared to treat 3rd as a trophy and enjoy all the privileges and bragging rights that come with it, whilst feeling hopeful about the future.

That doesn't seem right and a bit of a contradiction. It's not that simple. If money is the most important factor, how comes the smaller teams with a lot less than us can beat us? Liverpool spent way more than us but finished way below us and it's the same for Chelsea. Money is a factor but when you look down the table, Wenger is a better manager then all below him. He has won more titles and only Kenny Dalglish has ever won the English league out of all the mangers below him.

It takes a combination of money and a good manager. If we can't compete with City financially, we will need to look at the other option and bring in a top manager. It's not impossible. Dortmund have managed to win the league again. Real had their Galatico period and couldn't win the league for ages.

We've been poor for seven years now. Even though we've improved in some areas, the lack of consistency and the way we can let one bad result spiral out of control are still there. It's our trademark.

[AKBapologist]

That doesn't seem right and a bit of a contradiction. It's not that simple. If money is the most important factor, how comes the smaller teams with a lot less than us can beat us? Liverpool spent way more than us but finished way below us and it's the same for Chelsea.
FA cup, league cup, CL final. Money > Manager tbfh.




It takes a combination of money and a good manager. If we can't compete with City financially, we will need to look at the other option and bring in a top manager. It's not impossible. Dortmund have managed to win the league again. Real had their Galatico period and couldn't win the league for ages.
I hear Andre Villas Boas is available, worth a punt?


If you have a great manager and lots of money, you become united, or real, or barca. If you have just a good manager, it's a toss of a coin and a few dodgy ref decisions where you end up and what you get over the long run tbh.

[Ollie the Optimist]

also anothe way to challenge is for those ****s that they call referees to do their fucking job. we were bottom of the league in terms of wrong decisions against us. things like that dont help.

[Power n Glory]

Are we seriously discussing getting rid of the manager having just finished 3rd behind two billionaire clubs? A manager who only has a year left on his contract anyway? How should it be done? Public humiliation? Maybe lock him out and throw shit at him from the upper windows?

What else do you propose? Are you suggesting we get rid of the Board and bring in owners willing to spend money? Or hope Stan or/and Jabba start throwing money our way?

If that's your one hope, I don't see how you can shit on City so much with their recent victory. It's hypocritical. A change in management is the only way I see things improving if we don't hit the lottery. Wenger only has a year left and now should be the time to search for his successor IMO.

[Power n Glory]

FA cup, league cup, CL final. Money > Manager tbfh.



I hear Andre Villas Boas is available, worth a punt?


If you have a great manager and lots of money, you become united, or real, or barca. If you have just a good manager, it's a toss of a coin and a few dodgy ref decisions where you end up and what you get over the long run tbh.

I knew you'd mention the cups they've won. All I can say is...last year...Birmingham...Carling Cup final. I'm still pissed with the way we lost that.

[Letters]

That doesn't seem right and a bit of a contradiction. It's not that simple. If money is the most important factor, how comes the smaller teams with a lot less than us can beat us?
How come City lost away to Sunderland and Swansea? It's pretty simple. In one off games the best team doesn't always win. Over the course of a season though we finished above everyone bar the who Manchester sides who can both outspend us and one (arguably both) have better managers.


It takes a combination of money and a good manager
Agreed. Unfortunately City have both. But they only have a good manager because of their money of course.


We've been poor for seven years now.
I'm not sure finishing in the top 4 every single year is 'poor'. But there are glaring weaknesses which repeat year on year with wearying regularity and some of Wenger's decisions, it has to be said, are baffling. Given that Wenger has kept us up there the lack of trophies is damning. A new manager might do better but I don't think many managers could have lost their two best midfielders and still finished 3rd with more points than last season. And changing the manager won't change the board so I'm not sure how much would change apart from a potentially worse manager.

[Özim]

New manager is the simplest solution

Also fixing our biggest problem would help, the injuries. Its ridiculous the likes of Wilshere is out for the whole season with an injury that was supposed to keep him out for a few weeks. Sagna breaks the same leg i think from just controlling a ball clearly proving it wasnt healed. Theres the Diaby situation. Fair enough hes a bit shit but that isnt the point.

Bringing in quality players instead of run of the mill Pub Team players/French Africans/youngsters with potential cos we havent got the time to wait for them to come good.

Get a killer instinct. We dont score enough goals for the chances we create.

Plan B. Wengeritis football rarely works.

Go back to 4-4-2. 4-3-3/4-5-1 has been a failure. 4-4-2 is what we won all the trophies under.

Better mentality. We crumble under the slightest of pressure and we all know how we are after a big defeat.

Bring in Usmanov. If you cant beat them, join them
New manager is a must, I don't care what anyone says but we're winning nothing with that loser still in charge (not me being nasty just facing facts, he's won nothing in 7 years and seems happy with 3rd/4th that makes him a loser).

Injuries definitely, how long has this ridiculous mess being going on now, we need new methods and a new medical team...Wenger's methods clearly don't work, too many players get crocked.

Again quality is a must, no more cheap sh*t from abroad, if you want to compete buy some winners, players who can improve the team.

I'm hoping Podolski will help us get more goals, the killer instinct thing is again down to the overpassing sh*t Wenger insists on, everyone wants to pass nearly everyone is scared to shoot.

Usmanov may not be necessary as we have plenty of money, but I'm not against it if it mean getting rid of the likes of PHW and the only billionaire in football who won't spend a penny on the team.

[Power n Glory]

How come City lost away to Sunderland and Swansea? It's pretty simple. In one off games the best team doesn't always win. Over the course of a season though we finished above everyone bar the who Manchester sides who can both outspend us and one (arguably both) have better managers.


Agreed. Unfortunately City have both. But they only have a good manager because of their money of course.


I'm not sure finishing in the top 4 every single year is 'poor'. But there are glaring weaknesses which repeat year on year with wearying regularity and some of Wenger's decisions, it has to be said, are baffling. Given that Wenger has kept us up there the lack of trophies is damning. A new manager might do better but I don't think many managers could have lost their two best midfielders and still finished 3rd with more points than last season. And changing the manager won't change the board so I'm not sure how much would change apart from a potentially worse manager.

We've struggled for years against teams that play a certain way. It's not a one off.

Also, if we're saying next year could be Wenger's last, then why are you reluctant to see a change? It's going to happen soon enough and it's best we be prepared rather than getting caught out. It's also worth considering the fact that Wenger may have lost his edge. It can happen.

[Özim]

Every year you say the same thing.
Spot on, how often do we have to see the same thing happen before people finally clock on to the pattern that's developed?

[Letters]

Who do you think would have done better than 3rd, behind a team who bought the title and another who can also outspend us and have a better manager?

[Power n Glory]

Who do you think would have done better than 3rd, behind a team who bought the title and another who can also outspend us and have a better manager?

That question always pops up and nobody knew who Wenger was when we signed him.

I don't think anyone on here has watched enough different leagues and coaches over the years to come up with a realistic answer besides the obvious candidates.

[Özim]

Are we seriously discussing getting rid of the manager having just finished 3rd behind two billionaire clubs? A manager who only has a year left on his contract anyway? How should it be done? Public humiliation? Maybe lock him out and throw shit at him from the upper windows?
Hell yeah, this guy can't even pick up a tin pot trophy against mickey mouse outfits like Birmingham. He'll builds teams with no bottle who collapse at the mere site of a trophy, he shows blind faith in players who don't deserve it and discriminates against others, he constantly signs nobodies from France just because he wants to pay peanuts and he's tactically inept.

This guy is incapable of winning anymore, when all someone talks about is how great 3rd/4th place is you know you're onto a loser, he's done at this club, in fact he was done several years ago to be honest, if we'd got rid of him then we might actually have a chance of winning things by now.

[Letters]

Also, if we're saying next year could be Wenger's last, then why are you reluctant to see a change? It's going to happen soon enough and it's best we be prepared rather than getting caught out. It's also worth considering the fact that Wenger may have lost his edge. It can happen.
Wenger has failed in certain ways but while a top 4 finish shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions the sad reality these days is a top 4 finish, with the associated CL qualification, has become more important than a domestic trophy. Clubs below us have spent big year on year to try and unseat us and repeatedly failed. Did you think we'd finish 3rd this year? I bloody didn't. We lost our 2 best midfielders and had a car crash of a start to the season. Everyone wrote us off this year including most of our fans and yet here we are, Wenger's delivered again. We should be winning trophies too of course and that is where Wenger has failed. I do think things need to change at Arsenal but whether the thing is Wenger, or just Wenger, is debatable.

[Letters]

Hell yeah, this guy can't even pick up a tin pot trophy against mickey mouse outfits like Birmingham. He'll builds teams with no bottle who collapse at the mere site of a trophy, he shows blind faith in players who don't deserve it and discriminates against others, he constantly signs nobodies from France just because he wants to pay peanuts and he's tactically inept.

This guy is incapable of winning anymore, when all someone talks about is how great 3rd/4th place is you know you're onto a loser, he's done at this club, in fact he was done several years ago to be honest, if we'd got rid of him then we might actually have a chance of winning things by now.You really hate that we finished 3rd, don't you?

[Özim]

Wenger has failed in certain ways but while a top 4 finish shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions the sad reality these days is a top 4 finish, with the associated CL qualification, has become more important than a domestic trophy. Clubs below us have spent big year on year to try and unseat us and repeatedly failed. Did you think we'd finish 3rd this year? I bloody didn't. We lost our 2 best midfielders and had a car crash of a start to the season. Everyone wrote us off this year including most of our fans and yet here we are, Wenger's delivered again. We should be winning trophies too of course and that is where Wenger has failed. I do think things need to change at Arsenal but whether the thing is Wenger, or just Wenger, is debatable.
I do think Spurs have really bottled it this year, it seems to me the Redknapp and England job thing seem to really herald the start of their bad run....before that they were miles ahead.

The rest of the teams have been sh*t to be honest, Chelsea have improved but mainly in the cups, it seems they upped their game for those.

[Özim]

You really hate that we finished 3rd, don't you?
If I'm honest, yes.

I don't rate coming 3rd, it in reality pretty meaningless when it seems to be the sum of your ambitions every season (well 4th but we managed 3rd this year). We don't have winners and until some of these players get a taste of real success we'll never get anywhere, success breeds success and 3rd place isn't success.

I don't get any real joy from getting 3rd place, how can it compare to tasting glory in a final?

I still remember win the FA Cup and how amazing that was, the league was great too but one step at a time....as for the CL...it's but a dream for now, in reality Wenger should have won it by now with the amount of opportunities he's had.

One day, maybe one day under a different regime we might taste the glory of being Champions of Europe, that must be amazing to be honest.

[Letters]

League tables never lies :shrug:
We are where we are. We've finished behind a side who have bought the title and a side who can outspend us and have a better manager. The idea that a manager as bad as you suggest Wenger is could achieve that is laughable.

[Letters]

I don't get any real joy from getting 3rd place, how can it compare to tasting glory in a final?
Would you rather have had Liverpool's season then?

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Would you rather have had Liverpool's season then?
If he says yes, he's lying.

[Özim]

Would you rather have had Liverpool's season then?
I think Liverpool have been a car crash to be honest, but I'm not entirely sure.

Part of me wants to see the club pick up a trophy again, it also feels that although we qualify for the CL we have 2 hopes of winning it, Bob hope and no hope, there's something very predictable.

I know you can always get lucky, but I just don't feel we can, you need grit determination and qualities we completely lack to get lucky, a bit like Chelsea this year. They're not a great side but they have real fighters and players who have won trophies before, when they need to be they can be rock solid, remind me of Arsenal under Graham in a sense.

I'd take our season over there's I think, however they haven't set the bar very high.

[Globalgunner]

We cannot win the league or anything under Wenger. Ask yourself honestly. If Wenger had been managing either Manchester club, would either of them have won the league?. No

He no longer has what it takes and does not have the honesty of self appraisal to accept that he cannot do it. Start of next season you will hear the same claptrap out of him and by Xmas he will be telling us how coming 4th is a fantastic achievement. We are going nowhere, unfortunately as is Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger has failed in certain ways but while a top 4 finish shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions the sad reality these days is a top 4 finish, with the associated CL qualification, has become more important than a domestic trophy. Clubs below us have spent big year on year to try and unseat us and repeatedly failed. Did you think we'd finish 3rd this year? I bloody didn't. We lost our 2 best midfielders and had a car crash of a start to the season. Everyone wrote us off this year including most of our fans and yet here we are, Wenger's delivered again. We should be winning trophies too of course and that is where Wenger has failed. I do think things need to change at Arsenal but whether the thing is Wenger, or just Wenger, is debatable.

RVP delivered more like it. We haven't played well this season and I've never seen us so dependent on one player before. RVP can't do that again next season.

But that's besides the point. If we're approaching Wenger's final year, what's the harm in looking for a new manager now? In fact, it'a pretty sad to hear you just accept a champions league qualification as our lot.

[Joker]

It's possible to at least be competitive in the league without spending money like City. There are top quality players out there who can replenish the squad and City won't be after all of them. We only need to look at Newcastle and the gems they were able to pick out this season. We have been saying for years that the squad is not strong enough, and we don't need to sign players like Messi to augment the squad with quality. Given that we don't seem to spend much of our transfer fund that we make through player sales, surely enough has built up for us to actually build a strong enough squad that can go for the domestic cups and be challenging in the EPL? That doesn't need to cost $100M.

[Syn]

If he says yes, he's lying.

Not necessarily. Just depends on how much weight your preferences put on a 'trophy'. For me and seemingly yourself, it's not all or nothing. With others, it might be. We all know eachothers views about it and after such a chaotic ending to the season, it says it all about (remembers gary's thread) some gw'ers that we keep on having pages of the same word-for-word arguments. God forbid an interesting, original thought appeared on here. Tbf this topic was a goodun until this shit again.

[GP]

I dunno. If you actually support a team, invest your own time and money in them, then the journey becomes just as important as the destination.

IF you only look at the honours list, then a shiny trophy trumps all.

[Letters]

I think Liverpool have been a car crash to be honest, but I'm not entirely sure.
The reason I ask is that their season has been very similar to our "thoroughly enjoyable" 92/93 season. They even beat their derby rivals in the semi-final like we did in 92/93. The only difference being they lost the Cup Final. We won ours (although it was very close, that could have gone either way, it went to a replay of course which we won late on). Is that one game really the difference between a car crash of a season and a "thoroughly enjoyable" one? Really? Fine lines.

Of course I want us to be winning trophies and I doubt Wenger's ability to deliver them any more but the achievement of finishing in the top few every year should not be dismissed. The CL is where it's at these days and clubs are spending big to try and get in there. The top few shouldn't qualify for the CL but there you go, it is what it is and these days it's more important than a domestic trophy both financially and in terms of a club's stature.

We won't win the CL next year but I still enjoy being in there. The group was good this year, we didn't get a great draw and a lot of people on here doubted we'd progress. We won our group. We got our arses handed to us in Milan but even then the home leg was brilliant and we made a real fight of it. It was a fantastic night, one of the best at the new stadium. I think it's a competition worth being in for lots of reasons.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't see trophies as the be all and end alll, I'd rather win them that not of course but that feeling of joy subsides after a short while. I don't look back with any particular fondness of how we 'won' the FA Cup in 2005 for example.

However at the same time, I don't particularly want the feeling of being stuck in a limbo.

[Power n Glory]

Not necessarily. Just depends on how much weight your preferences put on a 'trophy'. For me and seemingly yourself, it's not all or nothing. With others, it might be. We all know eachothers views about it and after such a chaotic ending to the season, it says it all about (remembers gary's thread) some gw'ers that we keep on having pages of the same word-for-word arguments. God forbid an interesting, original thought appeared on here. Tbf this topic was a goodun until this shit again.

I tell you what, Wenger would have probably moved on or retired by now if he had the season Rafa had when Liverpool won the Champs League.

[Letters]

RVP delivered more like it.
And who bought him and stuck with him despite all his injury problems and people (I was one of them) thought we should cut our losses. You can't disassociate the players from the manager who signed them all.
But yes, we have been way too reliant on him this year and I hope Podolski is an addition, not a replacement.

[Marc Overmars]

However at the same time, I don't particularly want the feeling of being stuck in a limbo.

This is the crux of the problem really, Arsenal are in a comfort zone. For the club it's great, for the fans it's frustrating because no one knows whether we should stick or twist. Personally I've seen enough and would like a change, I've become so jaded with the belief of knowing exactly how every season is going to pan out, it makes the relative successes (top 4 every year with a low net spend) seem obsolete.

[Power n Glory]

And who bought him and stuck with him despite all his injury problems and people (I was one of them) thought we should cut our losses. You can't disassociate the players from the manager who signed them all.
But yes, we have been way too reliant on him this year and I hope Podolski is an addition, not a replacement.

Stop taking one part of my post to comment on and ignoring the rest because that's not the main issue. Yes, Wenger signed Van Perise but he could be gone next season and even if he stays, I can't imagine him repeating that performance. But that's not the issue. Wenger may very well be on the wane and he's into his last year of his contract. Why not accept the fact that change must happen for us to move on? If he's unable to win titles or cups and is approaching the end of his career, what's the point in us standing still?

[Letters]

Stop taking one part of my post to comment on and ignoring the rest because that's not the main issue. Yes, Wenger signed Van Perise but he could be gone next season and even if he stays, I can't imagine him repeating that performance. But that's not the issue. Wenger may very well be on the wane and he's into his last year of his contract. Why not accept the fact that change must happen for us to move on? If he's unable to win titles or cups and is approaching the end of his career, what's the point in us standing still?
At some point we need to move on and I agree with Maccy's post about us being in limbo. It does feel like that. Just generally though my feeling is we'll get worse post-Wenger than better. I might be wrong, one day we'll find out.

I think a manager who is managing a club at our level and who hasn't won a trophy for 7 years should be sacked.
But I also think it would be mad to sack a manager who can manage a club to 3rd place given the resources of the teams who finished above us and the spending of the teams below us in their attempts to dislodge us.

:shrug:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Hanging or Electric chair tbh. Only way to be sure.
Guillotine.

[Power n Glory]

At some point we need to move on and I agree with Maccy's post about us being in limbo. It does feel like that. Just generally though my feeling is we'll get worse post-Wenger than better. I might be wrong, one day we'll find out.

I think a manager who is managing a club at our level and who hasn't won a trophy for 7 years should be sacked.
But I also think it would be mad to sack a manager who can manage a club to 3rd place given the resources of the teams who finished above us and the spending of the teams below us in their attempts to dislodge us.

:shrug:

I think people want him gone in general. Also, luck has been on his side. Liverpool have once again appointed a complete idiot to takeover their squad, Roman does what he does best and Spurs just couldn't help themselves. But we can't stand still for ever because those teams will find some sort of stability in the near future and we need to be ready. If those teams weren't going through so many changes internally, we wouldn't be able to hold them off and that's my worry.

[Niall_Quinn]

What else do you propose? Are you suggesting we get rid of the Board and bring in owners willing to spend money? Or hope Stan or/and Jabba start throwing money our way?

If that's your one hope, I don't see how you can shit on City so much with their recent victory. It's hypocritical. A change in management is the only way I see things improving if we don't hit the lottery. Wenger only has a year left and now should be the time to search for his successor IMO.

What? You've just set out a position and assigned it to me and then chastised me for being a hypocrite! Fair enough, but I feel a bit left out of this debate. No, I suggest we get Jack back, bring Ox on as fast as possible, make sure RvP signs, get Podolski settled quickly and bring in 2-3 decent players for maybe £60-70million (incl. wages) which the board can well afford after all those years of raking in the proceeds. That would be roughly how much they have clawed out in investment that should have gone into the team over the last 5 years I'd guess. If you count Arshavin as a premium signing then one a year is fair enough for a club of our stature, especially in light of the names heading out the door.

I'm at a loss to explain this determination to have only two possibilities, zero investment or Man City levels of investment. The latter is an oddity, the exception rather than the rule. Aside from the artificial teams such as City and Chelsea, you can look back and see fairly sensible levels of investment in football. This has been skewed recently due to the activities of those artificial teams as others have sought to keep pace but I'd be happy with a quality signing each year to move things forward. In fact I'd say we've been a quality signing short of getting rid of this trophy blight on several occasions.

[AKBapologist]

Guillotine.
Burnt at the stake?

[Niall_Quinn]

It's possible to at least be competitive in the league without spending money like City. There are top quality players out there who can replenish the squad and City won't be after all of them. We only need to look at Newcastle and the gems they were able to pick out this season. We have been saying for years that the squad is not strong enough, and we don't need to sign players like Messi to augment the squad with quality. Given that we don't seem to spend much of our transfer fund that we make through player sales, surely enough has built up for us to actually build a strong enough squad that can go for the domestic cups and be challenging in the EPL? That doesn't need to cost $100M.

Racist

[Ollie the Optimist]

RVP delivered more like it. We haven't played well this season and I've never seen us so dependent on one player before. RVP can't do that again next season.

But that's besides the point. If we're approaching Wenger's final year, what's the harm in looking for a new manager now? In fact, it'a pretty sad to hear you just accept a champions league qualification as our lot.


what a load of absoulte horseshit. that is so untrue. yes rvp scored but where the fuck would his goals come from without theo, without song etc. what would his goals mean with chesneys saves etc?

[Power n Glory]

What? You've just set out a position and assigned it to me and then chastised me for being a hypocrite! Fair enough, but I feel a bit left out of this debate. No, I suggest we get Jack back, bring Ox on as fast as possible, make sure RvP signs, get Podolski settled quickly and bring in 2-3 decent players for maybe £60-70million (incl. wages) which the board can well afford after all those years of raking in the proceeds. That would be roughly how much they have clawed out in investment that should have gone into the team over the last 5 years I'd guess. If you count Arshavin as a premium signing then one a year is fair enough for a club of our stature, especially in light of the names heading out the door.

I'm at a loss to explain this determination to have only two possibilities, zero investment or Man City levels of investment. The latter is an oddity, the exception rather than the rule. Aside from the artificial teams such as City and Chelsea, you can look back and see fairly sensible levels of investment in football. This has been skewed recently due to the activities of those artificial teams as others have sought to keep pace but I'd be happy with a quality signing each year to move things forward. In fact I'd say we've been a quality signing short of getting rid of this trophy blight on several occasions.

There isn't a sensible level of investment in football. What's the difference between spending £60m each year to spending £160 in one season to bring you from a mid table team to a Champions League team? One team has spent to get to our level and we're talking about spending to win the league. If there is nothing wrong with us spending there is nothing wrong with City spending to win the league. Every team does it but City have done it in a shorter amount of time. Was speaking to my work colleage whose a Spurs fan and he had the cheek to say they've bought the league when they've spent millions just to get into the top four. There is no moral high ground for this and it's funny how people are outraged by it.

You're thinking along the same lines as all the city fans, owners, people in general that see big investments as a way to win trophies. When we swipe Southampton's best players for millions, not a word is said, but I'm sure their fans are pissed at the way the big clubs can just swoop in and take their most talented after years spent developing them. But this is football.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't think we can win the league in the current climate. I do think we could and should be a lot closer though.
A change of manager won't change things as the board as as to blame, if not more, for the lack of investment as Wenger IMO.
In the circumstances we've done well to finish 3rd but we shouldn't be so far away.

Pretty much we won't win the league while city continue to spend regardless of Wenger being here or not.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

There isn't a sensible level of investment in football. What's the difference between spending £60m each year to spending £160 in one season to bring you from a mid table team to a Champions League team? One team has spent to get to our level and we're talking about spending to win the league. If there is nothing wrong with us spending there is nothing wrong with City spending to win the league. Every team does it but City have done it in a shorter amount of time. Was speaking to my work colleage whose a Spurs fan and he had the cheek to say they've bought the league when they've spent millions just to get into the top four. There is no moral high ground for this and it's funny how people are outraged by it.

You're thinking along the same lines as all the city fans, owners, people in general that see big investments as a way to win trophies. When we swipe Southampton's best players for millions, not a word is said, but I'm sure their fans are pissed at the way the big clubs can just swoop in and take their most talented after years spent developing them. But this is football.

Well this is just it - you say 'but this is football' as a way of saying 'but this is business' but the way Citeh operates is not sound in a business sense, it's at the whim of one man. It's falsely propped up.

That's the distinction.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

As a few have said, there is no chance of winning the league while we have Wenger as manager. He's just not good enough, unfortunately. I do think we can challenge for the league, perhaps even strongly next year depending on what we do in the transfer market, but there is no chance of winning it.

We have no chance of winning the league if Wenger goes either its that simple. I agree a new manager should come in, Wenger going changes nothing.

Anyone who think a new manager will be given more money etc.. by this board are deluding themselves.

City will pump another billion to retain their title and may do the same for another 2 years. We can't compete with us unless this board go or we get taken over by a billionaire its simples.

The days of us being a dominant force for now are over.

[Niall_Quinn]

There isn't a sensible level of investment in football. What's the difference between spending £60m each year to spending £160 in one season to bring you from a mid table team to a Champions League team? One team has spent to get to our level and we're talking about spending to win the league. If there is nothing wrong with us spending there is nothing wrong with City spending to win the league. Every team does it but City have done it in a shorter amount of time. Was speaking to my work colleage whose a Spurs fan and he had the cheek to say they've bought the league when they've spent millions just to get into the top four. There is no moral high ground for this and it's funny how people are outraged by it.

You're thinking along the same lines as all the city fans, owners, people in general that see big investments as a way to win trophies. When we swipe Southampton's best players for millions, not a word is said, but I'm sure their fans are pissed at the way the big clubs can just swoop in and take their most talented after years spent developing them. But this is football.

WTF? What EXACTLY is your argument? Wenger out because Arsenal have spent just as much money in the last 100 years as city spent this season and I'm a hypocrite so Wenger definitely out in favour of an unknown manager that nobody knows about? That's what I'm picking up from you at the moment, have I got it wrong?

My ACTUAL point was leave Wenger in place, he's just finished 3rd, has a year to go on his contract and we have that year to find a replacement. Meanwhile build up the team with a few signings we have owed to us after all the money we EARNED FROM FOOTBALL ACTIVITIES was pinched by the board. Time to give it back. Arsenal are almost the exact opposite of City.

[Power n Glory]

Well this is just it - you say 'but this is football' as a way of saying 'but this is business' but the way Citeh operates is not sound in a business sense, it's at the whim of one man. It's falsely propped up.

That's the distinction.

Does it matter? The whole system is unfair.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

WTF? What EXACTLY is your argument? Wenger out because Arsenal have spent just as much money in the last 100 years as city spent this season and I'm a hypocrite so Wenger definitely out in favour of an unknown manager that nobody knows about? That's what I'm picking up from you at the moment, have I got it wrong?

My ACTUAL point was leave Wenger in place, he's just finished 3rd, has a year to go on his contract and we have that year to find a replacement. Meanwhile build up the team with a few signings we have owed to us after all the money we EARNED FROM FOOTBALL ACTIVITIES was pinched by the board. Time to give it back. Arsenal are almost the exact opposite of City.

Brillaint post good to see Sense is still on this board.

But Wenger is not going anyway.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Does it matter? The whole system is unfair.

Well none of 'this' really should matter. Not talking about Arsenal, Citeh or anybody else but we do, because we talk about football. And so to us, yes it does matter. Tell Rangers fans money doesn't matter after not needing to care about it when they won the league nine seasons in a row.

[Power n Glory]

What? You've just set out a position and assigned it to me and then chastised me for being a hypocrite! Fair enough, but I feel a bit left out of this debate. No, I suggest we get Jack back, bring Ox on as fast as possible, make sure RvP signs, get Podolski settled quickly and bring in 2-3 decent players for maybe £60-70million (incl. wages) which the board can well afford after all those years of raking in the proceeds. That would be roughly how much they have clawed out in investment that should have gone into the team over the last 5 years I'd guess. If you count Arshavin as a premium signing then one a year is fair enough for a club of our stature, especially in light of the names heading out the door.

I'm at a loss to explain this determination to have only two possibilities, zero investment or Man City levels of investment. The latter is an oddity, the exception rather than the rule. Aside from the artificial teams such as City and Chelsea, you can look back and see fairly sensible levels of investment in football. This has been skewed recently due to the activities of those artificial teams as others have sought to keep pace but I'd be happy with a quality signing each year to move things forward. In fact I'd say we've been a quality signing short of getting rid of this trophy blight on several occasions.


WTF? What EXACTLY is your argument? Wenger out because Arsenal have spent just as much money in the last 100 years as city spent this season and I'm a hypocrite so Wenger definitely out in favour of an unknown manager that nobody knows about? That's what I'm picking up from you at the moment, have I got it wrong?

My ACTUAL point was leave Wenger in place, he's just finished 3rd, has a year to go on his contract and we have that year to find a replacement. Meanwhile build up the team with a few signings we have owed to us after all the money we EARNED FROM FOOTBALL ACTIVITIES was pinched by the board. Time to give it back. Arsenal are almost the exact opposite of City.

This all links to a wider argument and discussions we've had in the past about City, our owners and we get back our to winning trophies. Plus there has been a lot of talk of trophies being bought and City lacking class...etc. Some views just aren't consistent.

[Letters]

Does it matter? The whole system is unfair.
Well yes it is, but when a club has the infinite money cheat on the rest of us might as well give up and go home.
Utd and Arsenal have money because of previous success which has generated a large fan base and thus lots of money. At least when Utd throw money around it is their own money.
City were in mid-table, they get taken over by someone who just decides to throw money at them till they win the league just 'cos he can. It's not just they can buy any player they want, they can buy players to stop their rivals getting stronger. I still think that we would have signed SWP back when Chelsea had the infinite money cheat on but no, they doubled the price, bought him and stuck him on the bench. Cos they could. Their squad gets stronger still, they prevent us from getting stronger.

The level of money, and the uneven distribution of it, has been increasing exponentially for a while now - pretty much since the PL started. Chelsea and now City have taken it to increasingly obscene levels though. I want Arsenal to be winning trophies but not like that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Does it matter? The whole system is unfair.

Of course is matters think of the Everton's and Villa's etc who will never see their clubs win the league unless they get taken over by some rich guy.

Yes Utd and us in the past Spent money to win the league but that was done with money earned no because some guy chucked his chequebook at us and say go win me the league.

Its not City's fault but Fifa/Uefa who let this happen and are spoiling the game.

[Power n Glory]

Well none of 'this' really should matter. Not talking about Arsenal, Citeh or anybody else but we do, because we talk about football. And so to us, yes it does matter. Tell Rangers fans money doesn't matter after not needing to care about it when they won the league nine seasons in a row.

I'm not saying money doesn't matter. I'm saying there is too much of an emphasis on money in football. It was always going to end up going this way. Clubs are forgetting about basic coaching and development. The answer is always to buy and some clubs just don't have that option and it leads to these sort of problems.

[Kano]

We have no chance of winning the league if Wenger goes either its that simple. I agree a new manager should come in, Wenger going changes nothing.

Anyone who think a new manager will be given more money etc.. by this board are deluding themselves.

City will pump another billion to retain their title and may do the same for another 2 years. We can't compete with us unless this board go or we get taken over by a billionaire its simples.

The days of us being a dominant force for now are over.
when you say dominant force, do you mean like a man utd winning a regularly or at the level we were, before the youth project?

i ask because i think our 'status' as a top team in the uk and the world has remained in place, thanks in the main to the cl saving our blushes. we have never been a team to win the league, even every other season, let alone back-to-back.

now of course the club want to grow into a super club, as we've seen with the stadium move and rebranding of arsenal and the only way it can step into the exclusive man u/barca/madrid type bracket and stay there is to win a stack of trophies alongside the marketing machine.

what we can and should be able to do is at least be nicking the odd trophy here and there, whether it be a cup or the occasional league title and with the players we have had over the past 7 years, that should have been achievable. we all know it has not happened and there are other managers out there that can at least deliver some silverware or at least realistically challenge.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'm not saying money doesn't matter. I'm saying there is too much of an emphasis on money in football. It was always going to end up going this way. Clubs are forgetting about basic coaching and development. The answer is always to buy and some clubs just don't have that option and it leads to these sort of problems.

I can accept that football will always have those that earn more money and thus can spend more money but I can't accept a club being run like a Ponzi scheme, regardless of how inevitable a conclusion it may have been.

[Power n Glory]

Well yes it is, but when a club has the infinite money cheat on the rest of us might as well give up and go home.
Utd and Arsenal have money because of previous success which has generated a large fan base and thus lots of money. At least when Utd throw money around it is their own money.
City were in mid-table, they get taken over by someone who just decides to throw money at them till they win the league just 'cos he can. It's not just they can buy any player they want, they can buy players to stop their rivals getting stronger. I still think that we would have signed SWP back when Chelsea had the infinite money cheat on but no, they doubled the price, bought him and stuck him on the bench. Cos they could. Their squad gets stronger still, they prevent us from getting stronger.

The level of money, and the uneven distribution of it, has been increasing exponentially for a while now - pretty much since the PL started. Chelsea and now City have taken it to increasingly obscene levels though. I want Arsenal to be winning trophies but not like that.

And we can't compete with City financially. Nobody can. This is why there has to be focus on training, devlopment and tactics. I admire and agree with the youth development system we have here, but I don't agree with the way our players are coached and think we're breeding players with bad habits and a weak mentality.

Plus, I'm not 100% sold on clubs being built purely on success on the field.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

when you say dominant force, do you mean like a man utd winning a regularly or at the level we were, before the youth project?

i ask because i think our 'status' as a top team in the uk and the world has remained in place, thanks in the main to the cl saving our blushes. we have never been a team to win the league, even every other season, let alone back-to-back.

now of course the club want to grow into a super club, as we've seen with the stadium move and rebranding of arsenal and the only way it can step into the exclusive man u/barca/madrid type bracket and stay there is to win a stack of trophies alongside the marketing machine.

what we can and should be able to do is at least be nicking the odd trophy here and there, whether it be a cup or the occasional league title and with the players we have had over the past 7 years, that should have been achievable. we all know it has not happened and there are other managers out there that can at least deliver some silverware or at least realistically challenge.

Yes at a manc level
Some people on here think that With AW gone we will go on and Win the league a few times in a row etc.. Had chavs not got into money and the Invincibles been younger we'd have had an era of dominance i believe.

But it was not too be. Now i just can't see us doing that well not under Wenger or anew manager any time soon.



what we can and should be able to do is at least be nicking the odd trophy here and there, whether it be a cup or the occasional league title and with the players we have had over the past 7 years, that should have been achievable. we all know it has not happened and there are other managers out there that can at least deliver some silverware or at least realistically challenge.

I agree and this is why i believe Wenger and the board, (both to blame for this) to leave the club they have failed and no amout of excuses can cover this up.

I just can't see us wining the league soon and im fine with that as long as we pick up a few cup and challenge for the league. Till we can get ourselves in a place where we can challenge City at the top.

[Marc Overmars]

Yes at a manc level
Some people on here think that With AW gone we will go on and Win the league a few times in a row etc.

No one thinks that.

[Power n Glory]

I can accept that football will always have those that earn more money and thus can spend more money but I can't accept a club being run like a Ponzi scheme, regardless of how inevitable a conclusion it may have been.

That's you're choice but as soon as football became a business, this was on the cards.

But I'm still in favour of good management and devlopment. In fact, I still think a skilled manager can topple a super rich club.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

That's you're choice but as soon as football became a business, this was on the cards.

But I'm still in favour of good management and devlopment. In fact, I still think a skilled manager can topple a super rich club.

Yep Sir Alex Showed that didn't he?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That's you're choice but as soon as football became a business, this was on the cards.

But I'm still in favour of good management and devlopment. In fact, I still think a skilled manager can topple a super rich club.

Well if Fergie can't do it, then there is little hope.

And again, you're saying as though this is a business. It isn't, not when they'd collapse if one person's assets were frozen.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No one thinks that.

Ok so not on the level i said but near enough.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Well if Fergie can't do it, then there is little hope.

And again, you're saying as though this is a business. It isn't, not when they'd collapse if one person's assets were frozen.

Pretty much, id not even think Jose could do it without spending a little.

[Kano]

Yes at a manc level
Some people on here think that With AW gone we will go on and Win the league a few times in a row etc.. Had chavs not got into money and the Invincibles been younger we'd have had an era of dominance i believe.

But it was not too be. Now i just can't see us doing that well not under Wenger or anew manager any time soon.




I agree and this is why i believe Wenger and the board, (both to blame for this) to leave the club they have failed and no amout of excuses can cover this up.

I just can't see us wining the league soon and im fine with that as long as we pick up a few cup and challenge for the league. Till we can get ourselves in a place where we can challenge City at the top.
the board have become complacent since they found a gem like wenger, a unique manager that can hone some cheap quality players into very good teams.

we have had some some fantastic players over the past 7 years, enough talent to achieve better than we have in that time and it has taken the stumble toward third this season to make me realise that changing the manager could improve things even further. now, the very fact that this group of players had a target of 3rd to achieve and actually done so as a group, could prove to be a key catalyst for their development and self belief. it's no trophy of course but they looked pretty bloody happy at doing it. yet i still think that would not be enough for us to make a significant change to our recent similar patterns.

i didn't expect us to keep on that winning streak where we ran past spurs but i didn't expect us to let go of the reigns so quickly and leave it until we had 35 minutes of the season left. we've done well to finish in 3rd and secure next seasons cl bounty but with the astonishing groundwork laid out by wenger during his time here, the platform is there for someone to get us back to winning some cups or just missing out on prems.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

the board have become complacent since they found a gem like wenger, a unique manager that can hone some cheap quality players into very good teams.

we have had some some fantastic players over the past 7 years, enough talent to achieve better than we have in that time and it has taken the stumble toward third this season to make me realise that changing the manager could improve things even further. now, the very fact that this group of players had a target of 3rd to achieve and actually done so as a group, could prove to be a key catalyst for their development and self belief. it's no trophy of course but they looked pretty bloody happy at doing it. yet i still think that would not be enough for us to make a significant change to our recent similar patterns.

i didn't expect us to keep on that winning streak where we ran past spurs but i didn't expect us to let go of the reigns so quickly and leave it until we had 35 minutes of the season left. we've done well to finish in 3rd and secure next seasons cl bounty but with the astonishing groundwork laid out by wenger during his time here, the platform is there for someone to get us back to winning some cups or just missing out on prems.

Agree. Not one gooner fan should be happy with 3rd again we need to aim higher now. In honesty id have like AW to have gone last summer a new man brought in and he could have planned from there.

But like you say we have a good crop of players and now a new man can take these lot forward.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not saying money doesn't matter. I'm saying there is too much of an emphasis on money in football. It was always going to end up going this way. Clubs are forgetting about basic coaching and development. The answer is always to buy and some clubs just don't have that option and it leads to these sort of problems.

Yep, I don't disagree with you there, the culture of football is deteriorating. But doesn't that coincide with the rise of the mercenary footballer? Bosman wanted the entirely lop-sided privileges afforded to the professional footballer (in comparison to the average joe) and at the same time wanted the average joe's contract conditions (or at least to cherry pick the useful bits). You think of Scholes, Giggs, Adams, don't you need those types of players to build a meaningful club culture and history? Where are they now? Who are the equivalents?

We'll see what happens at Barca now, will they stick with the academy approach or will they tip it in favour of writing even bigger cheques? Should Ajax consign themselves to feeder club status now and be happy with it? What about this Euro league that's being formed bit by bit? Utd ditching the FA Cup so they could go on money spinning tours. Money is stripping football of everything that matters to the fan. Chelsea turbocharged the decline, city have fitted a rocket engine. None of it is any good and even when we talk about trophies, how much do they really matter any more in the scheme of things? City have just "won" their first in 44 years, give it 3 more seasons and it'll be routine.

It's not even about the money, it's about greed. Greedy players, greedy agents, greedy TV companies, greedy authorities (look at those corrupt shits at FIFA and UEFA). They're all sucking the life out of the game and praying for sensationalism like Sunday to disguise the rats nest.

Meanwhile you have Wenger saying it's crazy and coming 3rd anyway. Is he really the "loser"?

[Power n Glory]

Well if Fergie can't do it, then there is little hope.

And again, you're saying as though this is a business. It isn't, not when they'd collapse if one person's assets were frozen.

Fergie was close and that wasn't a strong United team. Also, they won the league last year and complacency and sometimes kick in. They lost on goal difference and City didn't run away with the league.

As for the business part...countries are on the verge of bankruptcy becaue of a few greedy individuals. Business isn't really the word. Money and greed is probably more accurate. It was always going to spiral out of control if left unregulated and that's what we're seeing now.

[Niall_Quinn]

No one thinks that.

You do.

[Ollie the Optimist]

we win the league by buidling on what we have now, keeping the squad and the spirit the same and adding in quality players. not by getting rid of everyone on the backroom team

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fergie was close and that wasn't a strong United team. Also, they won the league last year and complacency and sometimes kick in. They lost on goal difference and City didn't run away with the league.

As for the business part...countries are on the verge of bankruptcy becaue of a few greedy individuals. Business isn't really the word. Money and greed is probably more accurate. It was always going to spiral out of control if left unregulated and that's what we're seeing now.

Sure but this summer Citeh can throw more darts at the wall except this time, knowing what team they can play, as their default option, much like Chelsea. They now know, it works. Like you say about countries, the only way it's really going to fail is through self-implosion but I don't think they'll make the same mistakes Chelsea did.

It's going to be incredibly difficult to overturn them now. Man Utd have got through this season through sheer force of will but even at 89 points that wasn't enough.

[Power n Glory]

Yep, I don't disagree with you there, the culture of football is deteriorating. But doesn't that coincide with the rise of the mercenary footballer? Bosman wanted the entirely lop-sided privileges afforded to the professional footballer (in comparison to the average joe) and at the same time wanted the average joe's contract conditions (or at least to cherry pick the useful bits). You think of Scholes, Giggs, Adams, don't you need those types of players to build a meaningful club culture and history? Where are they now? Who are the equivalents?

We'll see what happens at Barca now, will they stick with the academy approach or will they tip it in favour of writing even bigger cheques? Should Ajax consign themselves to feeder club status now and be happy with it? What about this Euro league that's being formed bit by bit? Utd ditching the FA Cup so they could go on money spinning tours. Money is stripping football of everything that matters to the fan. Chelsea turbocharged the decline, city have fitted a rocket engine. None of it is any good and even when we talk about trophies, how much do they really matter any more in the scheme of things? City have just "won" their first in 44 years, give it 3 more seasons and it'll be routine.

It's not even about the money, it's about greed. Greedy players, greedy agents, greedy TV companies, greedy authorities (look at those corrupt shits at FIFA and UEFA). They're all sucking the life out of the game and praying for sensationalism like Sunday to disguise the rats nest.

Meanwhile you have Wenger saying it's crazy and coming 3rd anyway. Is he really the "loser"?

I agree with Wenger's philosophy. But I think he's a bad coach. Plus, it's a little misguided to pay kids over inflated wages and spending over the odds for young players. But overall, I like the idea of having a club that has a strong youth set up. We just need someone that actually pull it off. Having the vision is one thing, I but i don't think he has the character or skill to do it.

[Power n Glory]

Sure but this summer Citeh can throw more darts at the wall except this time, knowing what team they can play, as their default option, much like Chelsea. They now know, it works. Like you say about countries, the only way it's really going to fail is through self-implosion but I don't think they'll make the same mistakes Chelsea did.

It's going to be incredibly difficult to overturn them now. Man Utd have got through this season through sheer force of will but even at 89 points that wasn't enough.

With the amount of egos Mandini has to manage and keep in check...it won't last. They won't dominate every year. They'll be a strong side but complacency will kick in, jealousy, competition for places...that will take it's toll on them and they won't be at their best. Soon enough, they will have to rebuild their squad and that's where the most together and stable clubs step in to take advantage. That's where we have screwed up. Two or three seasons ago, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea were all unstable because they had major players leaving and new managers settling in. We never took advantage of that period even though our squad was the most stable.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

With the amount of egos Mandini has to manage and keep in check...it won't last. They won't dominate every year. They'll be a strong side but complacency will kick in, jealousy, competition for places...that will take it's toll on them and they won't be at their best. Soon enough, they will have to rebuild their squad and that's where the most together and stable clubs step in to take advantage. That's where we have screwed up. Two or three seasons ago, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea were all unstable because they had major players leaving and new managers settling in. We never took advantage of that period even though our squad was the most stable.

Maldini?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Dein on SSN yesterday morning said some interesting things.

[AKBapologist]

Dein on SSN yesterday morning said some interesting things.

Like what?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Xhaka Can’t]

This thread as so many others has moved from it's original and interesting topic to the 'lets all whinge at why there is no point doing anything because Man City spend hundreds of millions of pounds' topic.

Even if you think we face an insurmountable object, surely there are things we as a Club can do to improve our lot, unless you think we have become as competitive as possible with no room for improving our:

-management
-coaching
-players
-tactics
-approach to investment
-utilisation of resources
-ownership structure
-competition prioritisation
-salary structure
-star player retention

Or any of another multitude of things we should be considering. Just whinging at other Clubs spending hundreds of millions will get us nowhere and has become drearily repetitive on far too many potentially good topics on this board.

[Letters]

The topic title is "So, how do WE win the league?"

The answer is we can't because of the way City can throw obscene amounts of money around. Even Utd who have the best manager around failed to do so although they came commendably close.

Of course there are things we can do to get closer though.

[Xhaka Can’t]

The topic title is "So, how do WE win the league?"

The answer is we can't because of the way City can throw obscene amounts of money around. Even Utd who have the best manager around failed to do so although they came commendably close.

Of course there are things we can do to get closer though.

What is the point?

The discussion should be about what things we can do to improve, challenge, etc. If the simple answer and course of discussion is nope, let's just feel sorry for ourselves, there is no point in having this thread because all that is happening is that the same points are being repeated that have been discussed ad nauseum almost everywhere else.

[Letters]

What is the point of answering the topic title? :unsure:
What is the point of saying what you said, if you're going to go down that road.
None of us can do anything about what's going on in the club or football in general so what's the point about talking about anything?
:shrug:

People are just saying what they think which is what a messageboard is about.

EDIT: Not all the posts are about City's money anyway, quite a few are about things we should be doing different.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No, the thread has turned to utter shit with the same old drivel.

The 'WE' in the title was emphasised indicating it should be about what WE do. If the answer is whinge, well, we're already fucking world class at that.

[Letters]

Alright, stroppy socks. I've replied to your other thread.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What is the point?

The discussion should be about what things we can do to improve, challenge, etc. If the simple answer and course of discussion is nope, let's just feel sorry for ourselves, there is no point in having this thread because all that is happening is that the same points are being repeated that have been discussed ad nauseum almost everywhere else.

No the thread was about how do we actually win it, not neccesarily how we challenge (although they go hand-in-hand). Ernesto already mentioned things for him, look bleak, that suggests that even if we do all the things we can possibly do to improve, there is still a huge roadblock stopping us, somewhere. In fact he posed the question in the context of Manchester City (amongst other clubs) in the first place. To then complain people are also talking about that just seems odd.

[Power n Glory]

This thread as so many others has moved from it's original and interesting topic to the 'lets all whinge at why there is no point doing anything because Man City spend hundreds of millions of pounds' topic.

Even if you think we face an insurmountable object, surely there are things we as a Club can do to improve our lot, unless you think we have become as competitive as possible with no room for improving our:

-management
-coaching
-players
-tactics
-approach to investment
-utilisation of resources
-ownership structure
-competition prioritisation
-salary structure
-star player retention

Or any of another multitude of things we should be considering. Just whinging at other Clubs spending hundreds of millions will get us nowhere and has become drearily repetitive on far too many potentially good topics on this board.

:gp:

There are other ways we can compete but it hardly ever gets discussed. Th one thing that has been made pretty clear over the past couple of seasons is that there is room for improvement on the tactical side of things and coaching. Pointing to the bigger clubs with more money is a distraction and papers over Wenger's flaws as a coach.

[Özim]

The topic title is "So, how do WE win the league?"

The answer is we can't because of the way City can throw obscene amounts of money around. Even Utd who have the best manager around failed to do so although they came commendably close.

Of course there are things we can do to get closer though.
I disagree, we can win the league as we could still attract top players, the trick is to have a group of players that complement each other you don't have to have the most money to do that.

As for Man U, they had it won before they inexplicably collapsed, never seen that before under Ferguson but I don't think the group of players they have is avergae these days, a few years back they'd have won this title hands down, but they had better players in those days.

This defeatist atttidue pretty much goes through the whole club, all we hear is excuses about how other clubs have got more monet etc etc, if you believe you've lost before the game has started you have. It's as if we don't think we can win so we don't even really try, all we do is do enough for getting 3rd/4th.

[LDG]

Of course we can win the league.

We were in pretty much pole position at Christmas in 3 out of the last 6 seasons, and should, given the talent we had on display, have won the title.

And we still can.

We beat City at our gaff. Beat Liverpool at Anfield. Drubbed spurs and milan at home, Chelsea away...

We're short of numbers that can keep that kind of form going consistently, and we require more quality, thus more investment is needed. That is it.

We have a manager who COULD do that for us. Whether he will or not, remains to be seen this summer. I don't hold out much hope....but hope remains all the same.

[Letters]

We can certainly get closer. Whether we could win the thing...I dunno. You look at City's squad and it's miles ahead of ours. We certainly have the resources to narrow the gap, I'm not sure if we can close it completely.

[IBK]

It's funny, people getting pissed off about results against *newly promoted teams* (none of which got relegated btw) and clubs like wigan or stoke who happy out played or out muscled our nearest rivals.

The quality gap between 17th and 3rd this season has been the smallest I've seen, hell, even the notion of city or united going unbeaten was wishful thinking at best even before winter. Teams who massively outspent us like the Chav's and Pool cling on to cups whilst ruefully wondering, what the fuck now? Where's stamford bridge telling us that our manager is holding us back today?

Sure, last summer was fucking unforgivable, and even the nearest hint of complacency with transfers and I don't think he'll have a prayer with the supporters next season - but there seams to be a certain myopic belief amongst that because Wenger isn't SAF, he's automatically shit. He's got strengths and weaknesses, despite what people think, beyond injuries and lack of spending, the squad doesn't suffer the same problems season after season (compare set piece goals conceded with last season for example) - So in the season where Man City have categorically, without a doubt, proven that money is the most important factor in winning *trophies* (In a game incidentally, that followed the same pattern as ours, with similar defensive mistakes against 10 man newly promoted, would be relegation fodder QPR!!!!) - I'm prepared to give AW and the club a little bit of slack, prepared to treat 3rd as a trophy and enjoy all the privileges and bragging rights that come with it, whilst feeling hopeful about the future.

I like this post - and I made the same point re our/Citeh's performances in another thread.

There's 2 sides to this issue, really. First, it was our early season that did for us in terms of the massive gap between us and Manure. Sort that this time (and keep RVP), and we'll be much nearer next time. Our stuttering performances towards the end were more to do with playing under pressure against teams with no pressure on them at all, and key injuries, rather than anything else.

BUT - and its a big but. If anyone thinks that Citeh will now be beaten to the league in the forseeable future, they are on crack. They will strengthen even further this Summer, and noone - not even SAF - will be able to compete consistently with them. To that extent we will be competeing for second place, and we might as well get used to it.

[LDG]

We can certainly get closer. Whether we could win the thing...I dunno. You look at City's squad and it's miles ahead of ours. We certainly have the resources to narrow the gap, I'm not sure if we can close it completely.

Bollocks.

There are players that are unplayable. See Messi and Ronaldo. But people get so in awe of other players, and worry about other teams and money etc.

They're all human. And there are plenty of decent players to go around. one club can't have all of them.

We beat them. And should have beaten them on two other occasions this year, but for a bit of luck.

They don't scare me one bit in there current form / shape.

It amazes me how the media can spin it. YES, they can buy players, and YES, they have (to a degree) bought the title. But are they aren't unplayable. And if we sorted our own mess out a bit, and built on what we have this season, there is no reason we can't go and win it.

Utd got as many points as them. And they were fuckin awful this year, IMO.

[Letters]

They're not unplayable in one off games but over the long grind of a season we don't have the squad depth to be at the level we need to be week in week out. That can be improved but not to City's level. That's where over the course of a season they're likely to do better. If we get close enough though then it could come down to a few games here and there though so I guess we'd have a chance as Utd showed this year.

[AKBapologist]

Bollocks.

There are players that are unplayable. See Messi and Ronaldo. But people get so in awe of other players, and worry about other teams and money etc.

They're all human. And there are plenty of decent players to go around. one club can't have all of them.

We beat them. And should have beaten them on two other occasions this year, but for a bit of luck.

They don't scare me one bit in there current form / shape.

It amazes me how the media can spin it. YES, they can buy players, and YES, they have (to a degree) bought the title. But are they aren't unplayable. And if we sorted our own mess out a bit, and built on what we have this season, there is no reason we can't go and win it.

Utd got as many points as them. And they were fuckin awful this year, IMO.
TBHF, we only beat them when they where without Yaya and Silva.

Squad wise, there miles ahead, with almost 11 players on +100k a week wages whilst we don't have anyone on that much at AFC. That's what matters tbhf.

[LDG]

They're not unplayable in one off games but over the long grind of a season we don't have the squad depth to be at the level we need to be week in week out. That can be improved but not to City's level. That's where over the course of a season they're likely to do better. If we get close enough though then it could come down to a few games here and there though so I guess we'd have a chance as Utd showed this year.

Utd bottled it. They were 8 points clear. They didn't "hang onto City's coat tails" as you said yesterday.

City are beatable, and can be challenged quite easily next year. It just means our manager has to sort his shit out.

Or course, if we piss about again, sell OUR best players AGAIN, we will never have a hope. It's down to our board and our manager to make that call.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fans of all clubs need to do their part too. Boo those title buying ****s for 90 minutes every game, sheer hostility home and away without respite all season long. Show those ****s that money can't buy respect and lets have less of this ****ish love-in some fuckers seem to have for anything in sky blue. Treat the fucking enemy like the fucking enemy, we don't understand them, we don't appreciate them, we don't accept them, we just fucking hate them and were going to make that hatred tangible so it becomes the twelfth man on every pitch those classless gypos step on, kicking them in the bollocks all day long.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Fans of all clubs need to do their part too. Boo those title buying ****s for 90 minutes every game, sheer hostility home and away without respite all season long. Show those ****s that money can't buy respect and lets have less of this ****ish love-in some fuckers seem to have for anything in sky blue. Treat the fucking enemy like the fucking enemy, we don't understand them, we don't appreciate them, we don't accept them, we just fucking hate them and were going to make that hatred tangible so it becomes the twelfth man on every pitch those classless gypos step on, kicking them in the bollocks all day long.:scarf:

[IBK]

Fans of all clubs need to do their part too. Boo those title buying ****s for 90 minutes every game, sheer hostility home and away without respite all season long. Show those ****s that money can't buy respect and lets have less of this ****ish love-in some fuckers seem to have for anything in sky blue. Treat the fucking enemy like the fucking enemy, we don't understand them, we don't appreciate them, we don't accept them, we just fucking hate them and were going to make that hatred tangible so it becomes the twelfth man on every pitch those classless gypos step on, kicking them in the bollocks all day long.

I wish it would happen, but it won't. Among the meadia wank fest, little if anything has been mentioned about how much Citeh have spend, and how they have won the league on a playing field now more vertical than level. Citeh will be adored because they have the world most glamorous players. End of.

[Flavs]

The mods should just merge these two threads, its fuckin annoying constantly having to switch.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fans of all clubs need to do their part too. Boo those title buying ****s for 90 minutes every game, sheer hostility home and away without respite all season long. Show those ****s that money can't buy respect and lets have less of this ****ish love-in some fuckers seem to have for anything in sky blue. Treat the fucking enemy like the fucking enemy, we don't understand them, we don't appreciate them, we don't accept them, we just fucking hate them and were going to make that hatred tangible so it becomes the twelfth man on every pitch those classless gypos step on, kicking them in the bollocks all day long.

You sound like a Stoke season ticket holder.

[Niall_Quinn]

You sound like a Stoke season ticket holder.

You don't like me and I don't care, you just don't like it up you tbh

[Xhaka Can’t]

You don't like me and I don't care, you just don't like it up you tbh

You don't know me at all.

[Boss]

The mods should just merge these two threads, its fuckin annoying constantly having to switch.

Best post in either thread, this.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This thread as so many others has moved from it's original and interesting topic to the 'lets all whinge at why there is no point doing anything because Man City spend hundreds of millions of pounds' topic.

Even if you think we face an insurmountable object, surely there are things we as a Club can do to improve our lot, unless you think we have become as competitive as possible with no room for improving our:

-management
-coaching
-players
-tactics
-approach to investment
-utilisation of resources
-ownership structure
-competition prioritisation
-salary structure
-star player retention

Or any of another multitude of things we should be considering. Just whinging at other Clubs spending hundreds of millions will get us nowhere and has become drearily repetitive on far too many potentially good topics on this board.

Title says how do we win the league, Man city spending billions will stop us simple as that. We won't win the league until things become fair. But we won't even challenge for the league till wenger and the board buck up the ideas its a simple as.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I disagree, we can win the league as we could still attract top players, the trick is to have a group of players that complement each other you don't have to have the most money to do that.

As for Man U, they had it won before they inexplicably collapsed, never seen that before under Ferguson but I don't think the group of players they have is avergae these days, a few years back they'd have won this title hands down, but they had better players in those days.

This defeatist atttidue pretty much goes through the whole club, all we hear is excuses about how other clubs have got more monet etc etc, if you believe you've lost before the game has started you have. It's as if we don't think we can win so we don't even really try, all we do is do enough for getting 3rd/4th.

your right and you make good points. Thing is City will spend more money to retain the league we all know this, we can do that like they can. If we want the good players you have to play 30-50 mill these days. that will only get us 2 untill we can afford to buy loads like city can.

I think we can buy players to challenge for the league but not the ones to win it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

They're not unplayable in one off games but over the long grind of a season we don't have the squad depth to be at the level we need to be week in week out. That can be improved but not to City's level. That's where over the course of a season they're likely to do better. If we get close enough though then it could come down to a few games here and there though so I guess we'd have a chance as Utd showed this year.

Pretty much.

And UTD know how to win titles and that is essential, we don't so they will always be there and about's anyway.

[Ernesto]

There are some excellent points here. My personal view is that we CAN actually compete and win the league WITHOUT spending obscene amounts of cash. My reasoning isn't unfounded- we beat off stiff financial competition from Man Utd, Newcastle and Liverpool to win the league in '98. It is possible, and money isn't everything. Case in point, I didn't ever think Chelsea would finish as low as 6th in the league under Roman Abramovich's ownership.

Now, the problem we have is certainly the way we play. Tactically inept. Defenders who aren't taught to 'defend', the way we were so accustomed to. Midfielders who will HARDLY ever win an aerial challenge. Set-pieces that always come to NOTHING.

Mentality is also key. I don't think we're capable of doing anything "special" under Wenger to win a league title (yes, I say that very brazenly, given our success in 03/04) What I mean to say is, are we capable of scoring 2 goals in injury time to win the league? Is it in our reach to beat Barcelona, or to dwell on stupid refereeing mistakes? Can we go on a 10-game winning streak, like in the late 90s, and actually beat teams that we're meant to beat on paper? Can we bounce back after a demoralising defeat and batter the team we next play?

I don't know. These are 'Wenger traits' as I like to call them. There isn't much we can deduce until we under new managership. It's time to stick or twist, although 'twisting' may present one of our worst seasons in decades (I'm talking Alex McLeish proportions)

[Tipsychubbs]

Title says how do we win the league, Man city spending billions will stop us simple as that. We won't win the league until things become fair. But we won't even challenge for the league till wenger and the board buck up the ideas its a simple as.

You sound like Wenger, making excuses because of City's money. Chelsea were in this position a few years ago, Man U still won the league, with money they generated not from billionaires.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from utilizing the resources he's got in a most effective way. All those expensive player contracts we have on young players/deadweight players who are not worth it, that money can be spent on strengthening the team.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from not blending youth with more experience so he wouldn't 'kill' the likes of denilson and diaby.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from being a good tactician on the pitch, with disciplined players that know their roles, a recognition of an opposing team's strengths and weaknesses which you can take advantage of etc.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from motivating the team to have a never say die attitude, and a professional attitude towards seemingly 'easy' opponents.

We didn't need a billion to win the league in 2004 and we don't need to now. With wise and sensible acquisitions without overspending and sound management we'd be up there challenging too.

We were conned into the idea of a new stadium that would allow us to compete with the top clubs, more than 6 years later, we should be generating a decent amount of income (with manageable and sustainable debt payments that should not be impacting too hard on the pitch) to do reasonably well, from money we have generated without a sugar daddy, like Manchester United. I use the word conned because our ticket prices are some of the highest in the league. Man U took them to the last game of the season, why can't we if the right decisions were made? I'm not trivialising the issue, it isn't easy to remain competitive against bottomless pockets, but impossible? Nah.

[Niall_Quinn]

We were conned into the idea of a new stadium that would allow us to compete with the top clubs

Very much so, when all it really did (in conjunction with other activity) was bloat the share price and make it ripe for a pay day for the scummy shareholders. No other manager in the world could have met the expectations of that board so precisely. But you have to give Wenger credit for keeping us near the top of the table too because there are plenty who would have got us relegated under the operating conditions of the last five years. It's all down to one man now, Stan. If he's in this for the money AND the sport we are in a position to kick on (certainly thanks in part at least to Wenger, e.g. Koscielny, Jack, Ox, persisting with Theo, shifting RvP), but if he's in it just for the MONEY then expect another 5 years of gloom and Wenger to leave next year to be replaced by possibly a 100% business focused manager. Fact is our fate rests in the hands of an American who knows nothing about and seems to care nothing for the game.

[Özim]

Very much so, when all it really did (in conjunction with other activity) was bloat the share price and make it ripe for a pay day for the scummy shareholders. No other manager in the world could have met the expectations of that board so precisely. But you have to give Wenger credit for keeping us near the top of the table too because there are plenty who would have got us relegated under the operating conditions of the last five years. It's all down to one man now, Stan. If he's in this for the money AND the sport we are in a position to kick on (certainly thanks in part at least to Wenger, e.g. Koscielny, Jack, Ox, persisting with Theo, shifting RvP), but if he's in it just for the MONEY then expect another 5 years of gloom and Wenger to leave next year to be replaced by possibly a 100% business focused manager. Fact is our fate rests in the hands of an American who knows nothing about and seems to care nothing for the game.
You make Wenger sound like some kind of victim, the guy gets 7 odd million a year to do this, he's just as big a part of this problem as the board. A manager interested in winning wouldn't have sold out like he has, noone has forced him to stay and if he wasn't happy and really is the victim as you seem to suggest then why wouldn't he leave.

As for no other manager meeting their expectations, you're probably right because other than someone greedy they'd have probably not been happy with settling for 3rd/4th and would have demanded more from the board and maybe left by now.

Any manager with any real pride and a hunger for success would never have lasted 7 years being happy with a top 4 place.

[Niall_Quinn]

You make Wenger sound like some kind of victim, the guy gets 7 odd million a year to do this, he's just as big a part of this problem as the board. A manager interested in winning wouldn't have sold out like he has, noone has forced him to stay and if he wasn't happy and really is the victim as you seem to suggest then why wouldn't he leave.

As for no other manager meeting their expectations, you're probably right because other than someone greedy they'd have probably not been happy with settling for 3rd/4th and would have demanded more from the board and maybe left by now.

Any manager with any real pride and a hunger for success would never have lasted 7 years being happy with a top 4 place.

How do I make him sound like a victim? It's got nothing to do with greed OBVIOUSLY. He could have been on twice the cash at Madrid. It's to do with the fact Wenger and the board see eye to eye. But added to the finances (which have been made paramount) Wenger has also been able to keep the team near the top of the table, that's just a fact.

[Özim]

How do I make him sound like a victim? It's got nothing to do with greed OBVIOUSLY. He could have been on twice the cash at Madrid. It's to do with the fact Wenger and the board see eye to eye. But added to the finances (which have been made paramount) Wenger has also been able to keep the team near the top of the table, that's just a fact.
He has yes, but it's shameful that as a supposed top manager he settles for this year on year and seems smug about it as if it's some major trophy. He picks up his 7 million pound cheque every year and as he's said before he makes the club money so that's all that matters.

Does he deserve credit for doing what he has, debatable after all it's the fact that he's happy with winning nothing nd getting top 4 every season that leaves us where we are, yes he talks about titles and the CL, but with the way he goes about his business that's an impossible task moreover a trophy he use to once upon a time hail as great is now but an annoying distraction.

IMO you make him sound like a victim by saying he's done a very good job under the conditions, but he's the one that accepts them and never challenges himself.

[Ollie the Optimist]

He has yes, but it's shameful that as a supposed top manager he settles for this year on year and seems smug about it as if it's some major trophy. He picks up his 7 million pound cheque every year and as he's said before he makes the club money so that's all that matters.

Does he deserve credit for doing what he has, debatable after all it's the fact that he's happy with winning nothing nd getting top 4 every season that leaves us where we are, yes he talks about titles and the CL, but with the way he goes about his business that's an impossible task moreover a trophy he use to once upon a time hail as great is now but an annoying distraction.

IMO you make him sound like a victim by saying he's done a very good job under the conditions, but he's the one that accepts them and never challenges himself.

yes of course he is happy, he never gets angry or anything on the touchline when we fuck up when challenging, he just sits there. he doesnt show emotion etc. my god you talk utter bullshit at times

[Niall_Quinn]

he makes the club money so that's all that matters

That's the job he has been asked to do. That's the job the shareholders would have asked any manager to do. Legally it was their club and they decided to milk it for all the cash they could get. Wenger had two options, do they job they instructed him to do or resign. But if you get a new manager doesn't he get faced with the same simple choice? Do what the shareholders want or fuck off. After that it comes down to who can at least stop the looting having a dramatic effect on our league position.

[Özim]

yes of course he is happy, he never gets angry or anything on the touchline when we fuck up when challenging, he just sits there. he doesnt show emotion etc. my god you talk utter bullshit at times
A bit of frustration that he soon forgets, all of which is eventually followed by the smug proud moment when he can finally talk about achieving a top 4 place. In reality his actions on the touchline are very hollow. A winner tries to change things and improve, someone that truly hurts and wants desperately to win would do more than sit on the touchline whispering a few angry words and wave his arms a few times.

[Niall_Quinn]

A bit of frustration that he soon forgets, all of which is eventually followed by the smug proud moment when he can finally talk about achieving a top 4 place. In reality his actions on the touchline are very hollow.

He gets banned for his hollow protests.

[Özim]

That's the job he has been asked to do. That's the job the shareholders would have asked any manager to do. Legally it was their club and they decided to milk it for all the cash they could get. Wenger had two options, do they job they instructed him to do or resign. But if you get a new manager doesn't he get faced with the same simple choice? Do what the shareholders want or fuck off. After that it comes down to who can at least stop the looting having a dramatic effect on our league position.
A manager can challenge a board though, Wenger has al ot of respect from the board and if he went to them and told them we needed to do a bit more and needed to succeed I'm pretty sure they would back him.

A new manager would surely only accept the job if he was given adequate funds and with the intention of bringing success back, something Wenger seems to have little interest in doing.

[Özim]

He gets banned for his hollow protests.
Maybe so, but what exactly does he do to try and change things? Very little from what we've seen, it's like being an athlete but not training that much but getting very annoyed when you don't win the race, it's hollow as you haven't worked hard enough to win in the 1st place.....sucess doesn't land on your lap, you have to work for it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Maybe so, but what exactly does he do to try and change things? Very little from what we've seen, it's like being an athlete but not training that much but getting very annoyed when you don't win the race, it's hollow as you haven't worked hard enough to win in the 1st place.....sucess doesn't land on your lap, you have to work for it.

He signed players like Merts and Arteta, the experience we all wanted and while they were fit it was working. He dropped Chamakh, got rid of Nik, shipped out Eboue, dropped Almunia and gave Ches the top spot, moved RvP into the striker role, he changed quite a lot but it can't all be done in one season. Let's see where we go this summer, Podolski already here and M'Vila maybe on the way. It's not all doom and gloom.

[Master Splinter]

It's not all doom and gloom.

The Mindless Optimism Clique(TM) Needs to be STOPPED! tbh

[Niall_Quinn]

A manager can challenge a board though, Wenger has al ot of respect from the board and if he went to them and told them we needed to do a bit more and needed to succeed I'm pretty sure they would back him.

A new manager would surely only accept the job if he was given adequate funds and with the intention of bringing success back, something Wenger seems to have little interest in doing.

Not the board - the shareholders! The ones who stood to make all the cash and when you stand back and take a look it certainly appears the last few seasons have been all about setting the club up for sale. That seems to have been the #1 priority. Can Wenger dictate on something like that? I doubt it. £500mill and even PHW can grow a set. There was more to the Fabregas/ Nasri thing than has been made public, enough slipped out to suggest Wenger may not have been fully on board. But as is the way with any company hierarchy, the shareholders will trump the manager every time if they insist. Maybe it's true that a prospective replacement for Wenger would demand investment, our lot would probably settle for no manager at all then.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Mindless Optimism Clique(TM) Needs to be STOPPED! tbh

And I would have stopped it if it wasn't for those pesky kids.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You sound like Wenger, making excuses because of City's money. Chelsea were in this position a few years ago, Man U still won the league, with money they generated not from billionaires.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from utilizing the resources he's got in a most effective way. All those expensive player contracts we have on young players/deadweight players who are not worth it, that money can be spent on strengthening the team.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from not blending youth with more experience so he wouldn't 'kill' the likes of denilson and diaby.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from being a good tactician on the pitch, with disciplined players that know their roles, a recognition of an opposing team's strengths and weaknesses which you can take advantage of etc.

Man City's/Chelsea's spending doesn't excuse a manager from motivating the team to have a never say die attitude, and a professional attitude towards seemingly 'easy' opponents.

We didn't need a billion to win the league in 2004 and we don't need to now. With wise and sensible acquisitions without overspending and sound management we'd be up there challenging too.

We were conned into the idea of a new stadium that would allow us to compete with the top clubs, more than 6 years later, we should be generating a decent amount of income (with manageable and sustainable debt payments that should not be impacting too hard on the pitch) to do reasonably well, from money we have generated without a sugar daddy, like Manchester United. I use the word conned because our ticket prices are some of the highest in the league. Man U took them to the last game of the season, why can't we if the right decisions were made? I'm not trivialising the issue, it isn't easy to remain competitive against bottomless pockets, but impossible? Nah.

:lol:

Yes we don't need to spend Billions to win the league. But City will spend loads to retain it.

Which means we'd have to spend say 150 mill just to challenge for the thing. we could not win it buy just spending 50 mill and hoping we get some decent bargins.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

A manager can challenge a board though, Wenger has al ot of respect from the board and if he went to them and told them we needed to do a bit more and needed to succeed I'm pretty sure they would back him.

A new manager would surely only accept the job if he was given adequate funds and with the intention of bringing success back, something Wenger seems to have little interest in doing.

If he wants to get sacked he would. No manager in his right mind would challenge the board just to make a few fans happy.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Interestingly, I don't know if anyone heard or picked up on it today, but on SSN one of city's directors said that they would not be making wholesale changes to the squad this summer. They may add 1 or 2 players but they want to retain the core nucleus of players.

Maybe they won't be splashing out in the way every thinks in future?

[Niall_Quinn]

Interestingly, I don't know if anyone heard or picked up on it today, but on SSN one of city's directors said that they would not be making wholesale changes to the squad this summer. They may add 1 or 2 players but they want to retain the core nucleus of players.

Maybe they won't be splashing out in the way every thinks in future?

On the other hand it wouldn't be smart even for them to enter a transfer window shouting Loadsa Money!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not the board - the shareholders! The ones who stood to make all the cash and when you stand back and take a look it certainly appears the last few seasons have been all about setting the club up for sale. That seems to have been the #1 priority. Can Wenger dictate on something like that? I doubt it. £500mill and even PHW can grow a set. There was more to the Fabregas/ Nasri thing than has been made public, enough slipped out to suggest Wenger may not have been fully on board. But as is the way with any company hierarchy, the shareholders will trump the manager every time if they insist. Maybe it's true that a prospective replacement for Wenger would demand investment, our lot would probably settle for no manager at all then.


Pretty much. AW obviously knows alot and the board know if they let him go now. he will expose more then they want right now. So backing him is their way of keeping him quiet etc.

[Alan B'stard]

There is understandable envy directed towards Manchester City from Gooners. Understandable, in that we're winners, and it wasn't so long ago that we were celebrating a league success. While footballing personnel changes, the fans never do. Successes, as well as disappointments, stay fresh in the memory.

I put the question to you guys and gals- how do we as a club go on to win the league in the current climate? With an abundance of wealth at Manchester City, a monetary backlash expected at United and Chelsea, and a board who are, seemingly, happy with a 3rd/4th place finish, it now seems a million miles away. Seeing that clock tick down at the Etihad, from 44 years to the 0 years since they enjoyed a league victory, made me wonder. Just how long is it until we'll experience the same feeling again? And, more importantly, how will we get there? Stupid foreign investment? A new manager to tinker with the current squad? An influx of players who are inherently "fans" of the Arsenal?

From a personal perspective, it all seems rather bleak at the moment. :(

we wont win the league until (say) usmanov pays kronke whatever his price is (im guessing 20 grand a share) and then spluffs whatever it costs to buy the league by then. I suspect anyone with any sense will long have been bored shitless by Mcfootball / gone off to support whatever FC united style protest club has sprung up.

[LDG]

we wont win the league until (say) usmanov pays kronke whatever his price is (im guessing 20 grand a share) and then spluffs whatever it costs to buy the league by then. I suspect anyone with any sense will long have been bored shitless by Mcfootball / gone off to support whatever FC united style protest club has sprung up.

Nice to see you back on the board :tiphat:

Cheer the fuck up though! :lol:

[Alan B'stard]

Nice to see you back on the board :tiphat:

Cheer the fuck up though! :lol:

I was trying to put a positive spin on it too :)
:tiphat:

[Ernesto]

I think also that you can't overestimate the importance of a good start in the Premiership. The last time we finished in the top two, we won our first two league games. I don't think that's a coincidence. Compare that with our stale, end-of-season feel game at St James' to start our campaign this season. It wasn't purposeful- it was pathetic.

I'd also like to add that maybe being a little more adventurous in the January transfer window may aid us in our run-in. The big money signings of Reyes and Arshavin have helped in the very seasons that they were signed to help us push on. It gives us a feel-good factor that rubs off on the rest of the team, at least for a short time. In doing so, I think we'll see the end of our Charlton Athletic-esque collapse at the end of every season.

[Daniele]

People calling AW a loser, an inept etc. THAT'S UTTERLY LUDICROUS. He's the most successful manager in Arsenal history. He won the league 3 times. Before that it took Arsenal how long to win three league in the last 40 years? 71, 89, 91..that's 20 years and he's won it in 6....When have Arsenal reached the CL final before him? Never, was not even in sight. When have we achieved such widespread renown for our style, our football? Never we were shite before him, even even George Bung Graham.

You people don't deserve AW, don't deserve the great football on show, not even the trophies he won before this barren run. You can criticise him of course but that's just lack of respect.

[fakeyank]

There is understandable envy directed towards Manchester City from Gooners. Understandable, in that we're winners, and it wasn't so long ago that we were celebrating a league success. While footballing personnel changes, the fans never do. Successes, as well as disappointments, stay fresh in the memory.

I put the question to you guys and gals- how do we as a club go on to win the league in the current climate? With an abundance of wealth at Manchester City, a monetary backlash expected at United and Chelsea, and a board who are, seemingly, happy with a 3rd/4th place finish, it now seems a million miles away. Seeing that clock tick down at the Etihad, from 44 years to the 0 years since they enjoyed a league victory, made me wonder. Just how long is it until we'll experience the same feeling again? And, more importantly, how will we get there? Stupid foreign investment? A new manager to tinker with the current squad? An influx of players who are inherently "fans" of the Arsenal?

From a personal perspective, it all seems rather bleak at the moment. :(

Sack the manager and get someone who wants to win. Someone who is not a mere mouthpiece of the board.

[Xhaka Can’t]

People calling AW a loser, an inept etc. THAT'S UTTERLY LUDICROUS. He's the most successful manager in Arsenal history. He won the league 3 times. Before that it took Arsenal how long to win three league in the last 40 years? 71, 89, 91..that's 20 years and he's won it in 6....When have Arsenal reached the CL final before him? Never, was not even in sight. When have we achieved such widespread renown for our style, our football? Never we were shite before him, even even George Bung Graham.

You people don't deserve AW, don't deserve the great football on show, not even the trophies he won before this barren run. You can criticise him of course but that's just lack of respect.

You can be complementary of Wenger without being so disparaging of George Graham. Graham gave so much to and care so much for the Club both as a player and a Manager. Many of the attributes we love about this Club were formed and developed by Graham. It is why he was and forever will be amongst this Club's greatest ever legends and you'd do well to make yourself aware of and remember that.

[Power n Glory]

Not the board - the shareholders! The ones who stood to make all the cash and when you stand back and take a look it certainly appears the last few seasons have been all about setting the club up for sale. That seems to have been the #1 priority. Can Wenger dictate on something like that? I doubt it. £500mill and even PHW can grow a set. There was more to the Fabregas/ Nasri thing than has been made public, enough slipped out to suggest Wenger may not have been fully on board. But as is the way with any company hierarchy, the shareholders will trump the manager every time if they insist. Maybe it's true that a prospective replacement for Wenger would demand investment, our lot would probably settle for no manager at all then.

If any of that were true we'd have sold Cesc when Barca wanted him a season before. It was football related and we had players unhappy with the club and wanting to leave. If we sell RVP this season, you can't say he was forced out of the door, the bottom line is, he's grown frustrated with the cycle we see each season.

Also, the shareholders can't dictate what we do as club at that sort of level. Not in regards to us selling players and what happens on the pitch. Advising the manager to sell his best players when he's reluctant to do so is suicidal. Actually believing that this has been happening for a number of years is crazy as well. Wenger's structure and policies have lead them here and shares have grown because of his management style and structure. Are we now saying he's being lead by the Shareholders? People that know nothing about football. And we've seen the AGM outburst a few seasons ago when he had that outburst as if shareholders have no business questioning his managerial decisions. He just wouldn't have it. He's not the sort of guy that allows people to tell him how to do his job.

[Daniele]

You can be complementary of Wenger without being so disparaging of George Graham. Graham gave so much to and care so much for the Club both as a player and a Manager. Many of the attributes we love about this Club were formed and developed by Graham. It is why he was and forever will be amongst this Club's greatest ever legends and you'd do well to make yourself aware of and remember that.

he was sacked for a bung scandal then went on to manage Spurs. Let us not forget it.

[Alan B'stard]

Interestingly, I don't know if anyone heard or picked up on it today, but on SSN one of city's directors said that they would not be making wholesale changes to the squad this summer. They may add 1 or 2 players but they want to retain the core nucleus of players.

Maybe they won't be splashing out in the way every thinks in future?

They don't need to. They have established critical mass now and only need the odd marquee
Signing going forward. Plus let's not forget city always had a decent academy (unlike Chelsea)

[Coney]

Sack the manager and get someone who wants to win. Someone who is not a mere mouthpiece of the board.

The fact that the board would choose the next manager is not relevant then?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The fact that the board would choose the next manager is not relevant then?

Excatly but most on here are too Stupid or too desperate to blame everything on AW to Grasp that.

[AKBapologist]

he was sacked for a bung scandal then went on to manage Spurs. Let us not forget it.
:gp:

[Özim]

Excatly but most on here are too Stupid or too desperate to blame everything on AW to Grasp that.
Oh the irony. :lol:

[Özim]

he was sacked for a bung scandal then went on to manage Spurs. Let us not forget it.
Doesn't really change anything, he still was very successful and did a lot for the club, if not for him Wenger would probably not have won those titles after all Adams and co were the foundation of his winning side.

As for the bung, well yes he made a mistake, sometimes people do, I'm sure he wasn't on 7 million a year though.

[Kano]

Doesn't really change anything, he still was very successful and did a lot for the club, if not for him Wenger would probably not have won those titles after all Adams and co were the foundation of his winning side.

As for the bung, well yes he made a mistake, sometimes people do, I'm sure he wasn't on 7 million a year though.
sounds like you are being a lot more lenient for that illegal charade than you are about a non dividend collecting chairman who has said a couple of silly things in the paper. i don't think there is really a case at to defend graham for that bung saga.

great player, great mangaer but he fucked up his legacy doing that - he's still a legend at the club but he tarnished himself.

[Özim]

sounds like you are being a lot more lenient for that illegal charade than you are about a non dividend collecting chairman who has said a couple of silly things in the paper. i don't think there is really a case at to defend graham for that bung saga.

great player, great mangaer but he fucked up his legacy doing that - he's still a legend at the club but he tarnished himself.
I acknowledged he made a mistake by taking that money and probably had to lose his job because of it, doesn't change the fact he brought success to the club.

The board on the other hand aren't too interested in that, they seem to be primarily interested in the finances, if success was on their agenda the money issue wouldn't be a problem, it's more the fact they expect to charge sky high prices, are happy to deluver no success (that's not a criteria for them) and then seem put out when anyone dares question their methods.

[Kano]

it was the 'old school' board over graham back then too don't forget. too many have seen a cash cow now but they have not always been a dodgy old bunch supposedly only looking out for themselves.

[Özim]

Yes it was, and they were stingy then as well I remember it, we signed Wright for 2.5 million but generally we barely spent a penny. The difference is that Graham's sides to that point always had something about them, they could always upset the odds, this kept the heat off the board.

When you don't win and don't spend it's a different scenario.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Oh the irony. :lol:

How so please explain ? and don't give me crap about defending Wenger cause i don't.

Im not as stupid as you to think with Wenger gone this board with get Jose or any top coach.

[Özim]

How so please explain ? and don't give me crap about defending Wenger cause i don't.

Im not as stupid as you to think with Wenger gone this board with get Jose or any top coach.
You call others stupid when you quite often post comments that make no sense and end up having to backtrack.

Maybe you should be careful what you say before you criticise others.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You call others stupid when you quite often post comments that make no sense and end up having to backtrack.

Maybe you should be careful what you say before you criticise others.

Fair play.

[fakeyank]

The fact that the board would choose the next manager is not relevant then?

Board will select a manager and give him resources. Same as Arsene Wenger or SAF or any other top manager. SAF uses those resources to get 200% out of his football team and not worry about player sales profit, pre-tax profits etc.

Most importantly, getting a new manager will answer the biggest question at AFC- is it the board holding resources back or AW choosing to be a butt buddy of the board by maximizing as much profits as possible. I firmly believe its the later..

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Board will select a manager and give him resources. Same as Arsene Wenger or SAF or any other top manager. SAF uses those resources to get 200% out of his football team and not worry about player sales profit, pre-tax profits etc.

Most importantly, getting a new manager will answer the biggest question at AFC- is it the board holding resources back or AW choosing to be a butt buddy of the board by maximizing as much profits as possible. I firmly believe its the later..

Good point we'd find out the truth one way or another. But Coney is right this baord would only go and appoint a yes man tbh.

[fakeyank]

Good point we'd find out the truth one way or another. But Coney is right this baord would only go and appoint a yes man tbh.

If they do and we have the same cycle again, we know whose at fault. You peeps in London, get on a strike, make t-shirts (:lol:) and get those greedy fuckers out! Having said that, if the board are to blame, I do not think the 'middle class- I wont do a thing' mentality of majority of Arsenal fans will do a thing. There will be plenty of 'keyboard warriors' though!

[Xhaka Can’t]

If they do and we have the same cycle again, we know whose at fault. You peeps in London, get on a strike, make t-shirts (:lol:) and get those greedy fuckers out! Having said that, if the board are to blame, I do not think the 'middle class- I wont do a thing' mentality of majority of Arsenal fans will do a thing. There will be plenty of 'keyboard warriors' though!

Instead of talking about what everyone else should do, do your bit, don't feed the pigs by subscribing to premium channels to watch football until your demands are met.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Instead of talking about what everyone else should do, do your bit, don't feed the pigs by subscribing to premium channels to watch football until your demands are met.

:lol:

Feck sky tbh.

[fakeyank]

Instead of talking about what everyone else should do, do your bit, don't feed the pigs by subscribing to premium channels to watch football until your demands are met.

Fine, I'll watch my games on Chinese sopcast channels instead of the paid channels. Thats my part done from here in the US. Now, what are you guys going to do? Stop subscribing to Sky? Or actually do something that'll make a difference?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fine, I'll watch my games on Chinese sopcast channels instead of the paid channels. Thats my part done from here in the US. Now, what are you guys going to do? Stop subscribing to Sky? Or actually do something that'll make a difference?

Already done quite a lot. That and read you moaning about what other people should do.

[fakeyank]

Already done quite a lot. That and read you moaning about what other people should do.

Bravo!

:clap:

[Letters]

Most importantly, getting a new manager will answer the biggest question at AFC- is it the board holding resources back or AW choosing to be a butt buddy of the board by maximizing as much profits as possible. I firmly believe its the later..
I think there's a bit of that too but I believe if so then he's looking longer term and trying to clear the stadium debt as soon as possible and keep us reasonably competitive in the meantime. He gets his salary either way, why else would he care what profits we make?

[Özim]

I think there's a bit of that too but I believe if so then he's looking longer term and trying to clear the stadium debt as soon as possible and keep us reasonably competitive in the meantime. He gets his salary either way, why else would he care what profits we make?
Don't think it's the profits, if he spends more and fails to achieve success then there's a greater risk he could lose his job. By spending little and delivering profits his job is pretty safe, if he spent lots he'd be risking that.

[Coney]

I don't think Wenger is motivated to just save money for the board and just keep the club's head above water. There is no doubt in my mind that he wants to win games and he wants to win titles - any suggestion that he does not is ridiculous. However, I'm open to the idea that he is overcautious with the money and that sometimes his substitutions seem a bit off the wall.

[Özim]

I don't think Wenger is motivated to just save money for the board and just keep the club's head above water. There is no doubt in my mind that he wants to win games and he wants to win titles - any suggestion that he does not is ridiculous. However, I'm open to the idea that he is overcautious with the money and that sometimes his substitutions seem a bit off the wall.
I don't doubt he wants to win, but I also believe he's conscious of the finances in the sense that he's aware that if he spends more expectations will be higher.

The fact he talks about the fact he makes the club profit in the 1st place is a sign of the above, what other manager talks about money when referrring to their performance.

[Niall_Quinn]

We need to bribe more refs. We have been shit at this in comparison to the clubs around us over the last few years.

[-Xs-]

I don't think Wenger is motivated to just save money for the board and just keep the club's head above water. There is no doubt in my mind that he wants to win games and he wants to win titles - any suggestion that he does not is ridiculous. However, I'm open to the idea that he is overcautious with the money and that sometimes his substitutions seem a bit off the wall.

And his signings, I mean Park, come on now. Wtf was that about?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

And his signings, I mean Park, come on now. Wtf was that about?

To sell shirts.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It worked too.

My wife got me the away shirt for my birthday.

[Fist of Lehmann]

We need to bribe more refs. We have been shit at this in comparison to the clubs around us over the last few years.We also need more divers in the team.

Look at Ashley Young or Gareth Bale, these are some of the finest divers in the league.

No home pels awarded all season tells us that we could learn much from these despicable, cheating teabaggers.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That was Chakma's one role he could've carried on from last season but he cocked it up. It definitely needs to be GHEL 'clever play' though like you suggest, we can't rely on those cheating Carlos Kickaballs to win us one.

We have Theo, who said he dived when he actually didn't. What a berk.

[Niall_Quinn]

That was Chakma's one role he could've carried on from last season but he cocked it up. It definitely needs to be GHEL 'clever play' though like you suggest, we can't rely on those cheating Carlos Kickaballs to win us one.

We have Theo, who said he dived when he actually didn't. What a berk.

I think we also need to make more genuine efforts to get the ball, no matter who gets maimed for life.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think we also need to make more genuine efforts to get the ball, no matter who gets maimed for life.

Few more cynical fouls tbh. And scrapp the pretty stuff lets play the pub team way seems to be effective tbf.

[Niall_Quinn]

Few more cynical fouls tbh. And scrapp the pretty stuff lets play the pup team way seems to be effective tbf.

Pup team? Thought we already played that way on our wobbly little legs, with our half open eyes and mewing like kittens for half the season before maturing into one hell of an ugly bitch.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Pup team? Thought we already played that way on our wobbly little legs, with our half open eyes and mewing like kittens for half the season before maturing into one hell of an ugly bitch.

pub team.

[Niall_Quinn]

pub team.

Last edited by Charlie's Cousin the Gooner; Today at 02:31 PM.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Last edited by Charlie's Cousin the Gooner; Today at 02:31 PM.


Your face will be Edited by my Cousin.

[Niall_Quinn]

Your face will be Edited by my Cousin.

He can come and have a go if he thinks he exists enough!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He can come and have a go if he thinks he exists enough!

Ah Shut ya face. lol.

[Syn]

:haha:

[Syn]

Your face will be Edited by my Cousin.
He can come and have a go if he thinks he exists enough!

Probably the best exchange in GW history.

[Fist of Lehmann]

That was Chakma's one role he could've carried on from last season but he cocked it up. It definitely needs to be GHEL 'clever play' though like you suggest, we can't rely on those cheating Carlos Kickaballs to win us one.

We have Theo, who said he dived when he actually didn't. What a berk.Chakra was actually pretty good at making things look natural, that and his unknown quantityness meant he started with a clean slate with refs and the media.

Young's frankly outrageous propensity to go horizontal at the slightest opportunity would have got more attention in the media were he a dirty foreigner playing for us rather than an Honest English Lad for a Good Honest English Team like Utd or Sperz.

Also, we don't moan at the ref enough. Arteta is the only one, and he was trained well at underdogs of war, Everton. There is a distanct lack of cynicism, gamesmanship and dickery in our side, other sides don't shy away from it. 5 straight seasons as Moral Integrity Cup winners is enough already.

[Niall_Quinn]

5 straight seasons as Moral Integrity Cup winners is enough already.

Just tell the lads they're on the verge of an unprecedented 6th win and they'll bottle it and start punching in all directions.