So what do we do to improve our prospects of mounting a challenge for the league and other competitions.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Another similarly titled thread as so many others has moved from it's original and interesting topic to the 'lets all whinge at why there is no point doing anything because Man City spend hundreds of millions of pounds' topic.

Even if you think we face an insurmountable object, surely there are things we as a Club can do to improve our lot, unless you think we have become as competitive as possible with no room for improving our:

-management
-coaching
-players
-tactics
-approach to investment
-utilisation of resources
-ownership structure
-competition prioritisation
-salary structure
-star player retention

Or any of another multitude of things we should be considering. Just whinging at other Clubs spending hundreds of millions will get us nowhere and has become drearily repetitive on far too many potentially good topics on this board.

[Letters]

Utilisation of resources is the main one IMO. The frustrating thing for me in the last few years is that Wenger has done brilliantly to keep us 'up there' but really poorly in terms of finishing the job or delivering trophies. Too many times we've had promising sides who didn't need £100m spent on them to push them to the next level, just some sensible investment and instead we've sold our best players and gone backwards or sideways. We're in the same position now. After last summer's car crash we got it together and finished strongly (well, we didn't finish that strongly but we got ourselves in a position where we could stumble over the line). Do the right things in the summer and while I don't think we can win the league next year we can at least push the top 2 harder and maybe challenge more strongly in the cups. The early signing of Podolski gives me some hope that maybe, just maybe, we're going to get it right this year. But we need to sign up RvP too and maybe the signings are as much for him as for the club, to show that we are trying to go somewhere. If Podolski is a replacement for RvP then we might as well all go home.

[Marc Overmars]

Look at the Chavs for example, the Old Boys may be on their last legs but you cannot deny there are some incredibly driven players in that squad.

We don't have enough players with the right "minerals" so to speak. The truth is, a lot of our squad has minimal experience of winning trophies and their naiveity always bites them in the arse when it's business time. As I mentioned in the other thread, we need to start getting some hungry players into the squad, ones with a point to prove. Podolski is most certainly a step in the right direction but we need more. Keeping our core players together would also be a good idea this time, Fabregas has stated many times since he joined Barca how hard it was to gain some continuity at Arsenal because everyone kept leaving around him.

Also, it would be nice if we stopped handing out hefty contracts to players who haven't achieved anything with the club - although I guess this is more a football problem than Arsenal specific.

Personally I think it's unrealistic to expect Arsenal under Wenger to challenge for the title again, and I mean really challenge, none of this fall away in March shit.

[Flavs]

Management

This would be a start, but will never happen. If we get someone in with fresh ideas and a fresh approach could they really improve on 3rd with our board? Better the devil you know seems to be our boards approach. Also how much of a shit do they give about trophies? We finished in the money for 15 years in a row while building a global brand and moving stadiums to increase the revenue even further, Wenger is a god to them without a trophy.


Coaching
They can only do so much, i take it from the staffs reaction on the sidelines that the players are not doing what they ought to, i think we have world class coaching and training and development facilities we just dont have the application or tactical prowess to utilise it properly.


Players Only 2 issues for me here,
1.get rid of the overpaid and underachieving shite in the squad and we free up over half a mil a week in wages
2. Sort the injuries out, its beyond a joke.


tactics Useless, absolutely useless. Pay no attention to the opposition, don't adapt and rely on individual talent to get us through, its always been this way.


utilisation of resources/Ownership structure/Salary structure Yes this needs its own thread tbh, where does all the money go?


Competition prioritisation 1. The league 2. The champs league. 3 The FA cup. 4. The league cup 5. The morality cup

In that order


Star player retention This isn't just us, this is a symptom of the sugar daddy era as a whole. The influence of agents and advisor's combined with the fucking Bosman rule have pretty much ruined football in that every time a player emerges as stand out from a team without a sugar daddy that player will be taken away by a team with one. Look at Man Citeh's team, they are about 80% full of these kinds of players. The divide between the rich teams (not the big teams) and the rest will just get bigger and bigger and the FA do nothing about it, the FFPR was a joke at best.

[Flavs]

Just on the star player retention thing, are there any players who have left who we should really have kept? Seems to me they (or at least their "people") had already decided they were going and they did all they could to engineer a move away.

Ade, Nasri, Clichy, Toure, Fabregas and so on all wanted out so i don't see it as a loss. If they are lured away with money there is nothing we can do but get rid.

[AKBapologist]

Oh yes, ooooh, ooooh, I know, lets just replace the manager...

What another pointless thread.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Are we allowed to have a laugh in this thread or is it only for very serious discussion that, in the grand scheme of things, we have absolutetly no control over what-so-ever?

[Kano]

Oh yes, ooooh, ooooh, I know, lets just replace the manager...

What another pointless thread.

yes, let’s just cry about the money being spent by the big bad boys and sit on our arse complaining why we never win anything and nothing can ever be done about it

dropping a manager that doesn’t give a shit about cups would at least increase our chances of winning something, or giving them a realistic shot

[Xhaka Can’t]

Oh yes, ooooh, ooooh, I know, lets just replace the manager...

What another pointless thread.

You didn't read it - the only thing pointless is you and your reply.

[Marc Overmars]

Oh yes, ooooh, ooooh, I know, lets just replace the manager...

What another pointless thread.

Fail.

[AKBapologist]

yes, let’s just cry about the money being spent by the big bad boys and sit on our arse complaining why we never win anything and nothing can ever be done about it

dropping a manager that doesn’t give a shit about cups would at least increase our chances of winning something, or giving them a realistic shot
I'm not the one crying about SAF not being our manager.

I wonder what chelsea supporters would say about there manager switch last season.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Are we allowed to have a laugh in this thread or is it only for very serious discussion that, in the grand scheme of things, we have absolutetly no control over what-so-ever?

Of course we have no control, but there is plenty of scope for discussion - there are many areas to look at. For instance I have strong views over our wage structure. People are of the opinion that we are very parsimonious in our approach to the transfer market - and they are right. But I feel that a major part of why we are like that is not because our Manager is afraid to spend money - he is spending shedloads of it - on player contracts. We have an awful wage structure that does little to award brilliance but throws an obscene amount of money at mediocrity without merit.

[Letters]

yes, let’s just cry about the money being spent by the big bad boys and sit on our arse complaining why we never win anything and nothing can ever be done about it
Shall we instead sit on our arses complaining about other stuff which we can't do anything about?

[Kano]

I'm not the one crying about SAF not being our manager.

I wonder what chelsea supporters would say about there manager switch last season.

no you are crying that we can't do anything about the current situation, so why bother doing anything.

wenger could and should have achieved more than he has in the past 7 years instead of just firefighting season on season and the end to this season illustrates the loop will continue.

an amazing man that has done amazing things for our club but now is the time to change him to at least get back to trying to nick a cup or two.

[Flavs]

Some people seem to have misunderstood what a message board is for.

[Kano]

Shall we instead sit on our arses complaining about other stuff which we can't do anything about?
no you are doing a great job here.

[Letters]

no you are doing a great job here.
:woohoo:


I feel validated by that.

[AKBapologist]

no you are crying that we can't do anything about the current situation, so why bother doing anything.

wenger could and should have achieved more than he has in the past 7 years instead of just firefighting season on season and the end to this season illustrates the loop will continue.

an amazing man that has done amazing things for our club but now is the time to change him to at least get back to trying to nick a cup or two.
Would I say no no Guardiola? Of course not, but I doubt even he would be garenteed to win anything with this squad (which I think is poorer than most want to accept) and in this league.

But no, I'm satisfied with a manager that by all credible estimates, OUTPERFORMED given the starting conditions and the competition we had for this place this league. I'm satisfied with coming a place higher than last season, finishing the season with more points, with the development of many players and with the general atmosphere of the club.

At this point, it just seems like the same old babies whining about the same old shit even though the context has completely changed.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Of course we have no control, but there is plenty of scope for discussion - there are many areas to look at. For instance I have strong views over our wage structure. People are of the opinion that we are very parsimonious in our approach to the transfer market - and they are right. But I feel that a major part of why we are like that is not because our Manager is afraid to spend money - he is spending shedloads of it - on player contracts. We have an awful wage structure that does little to award brilliance but throws an obscene amount of money at mediocrity without merit.:lol: relax GB!

I was just being humerous thats all, you seem to have a stick up your arse and really grumpy since you stopped being a mod.

Just chill a little bit ;)

[Flavs]

I was just being humerous thats all

Fail

[KSE Comedy Club]

Would I say no no Guardiola? Of course not, but I doubt even he would be garenteed to win anything with this squad (which I think is poorer than most want to accept) and in this league.

But no, I'm satisfied with a manager that by all credible estimates, OUTPERFORMED given the starting conditions and the competition we had for this place this league. I'm satisfied with coming a place higher than last season, finishing the season with more points, with the development of many players and with the general atmosphere of the club.

At this point, it just seems like the same old babies whining about the same old shit even though the context has completely changed.Although you could add that the starting point was a position which was created by wenger for not strengthening the team a lot earlier in the summer.

[IBK]

Good thread and reasoning, GB

-
management

Personally, I don't think I have too much of a problem with this. AW fecked up in last Summer's transfer window, and was punished for it. It was the start of the season that killed us, not the end. Our team shape has looked flakey recently because of key injuries, not because we've been playing any different. Its easy to forget that we were all commenting mid-season on how nice it was to see players wanting to play for each other again, and Wenger turned things around in this respect this season. We might have been well off the pace, but 3rd is no mean achievement - and I don't think another manager could have retrieved things like Wenger did.


-tactics

We need to play the opposition more, IMO. Otherwise again, I think we are over critical of our team.


Players/approach to investment

The club is at acrossroads. We need 15% less caution in investing in proven players that we need. Arteta/Mertesaker is going inthe right direction, but we need at least one other player of the stature of Podolski to come in in DM - and we need to break the bank to keep RVP, if he will stay.

-
competition prioritisation

This is a difficult one. I don't think we threw the cups this year as we have done in previous years. You have to rotate these days. Our issue IMO is not wrong prioritisation, its carrying too many players who are just not good enough - see above.


-salary structure-

IMHO the biggest problem at our club is that we take too many 'punts' on players who aren't proven. And reward them to a degree that makes it difficult to move them on when they fail to shine. I think our salary structure needs to be looked at. We need to pay our best players what they are worth, and cut down on our £50/60M dross to fund it.


star player retention

As Flavs says, ain't a great deal we can do about this. With RVP, for example, provided that we offer him £150K pw, the club will have done everything it can realistically do to to keep him - automatic CL qualification plus genuinely offering as much as it can afford. He may well choose to go to a club with bigger resources than our, and short of going cap in hand to Usmanov, there is simply nothing we can do about this. Our club has been around for 126 years. If we think of it in these terms, depending on an oligarch/petro dollars is not IMO the way to roll.

[KSE Comedy Club]

FailSo's your face.

[Kano]

Would I say no no Guardiola? Of course not, but I doubt even he would be garenteed to win anything with this squad (which I think is poorer than most want to accept) and in this league.

But no, I'm satisfied with a manager that by all credible estimates, OUTPERFORMED given the starting conditions and the competition we had for this place this league. I'm satisfied with coming a place higher than last season, finishing the season with more points, with the development of many players and with the general atmosphere of the club.

At this point, it just seems like the same old babies whining about the same old shit even though the context has completely changed.
wenger has taken us as far as he can –things will not change but can only get worse under his leadership and i would gain no satisfaction sitting in the stadium watching his legacy completely fall to pieces.

Im proud the team turned things around and happy we finished third – however the same problems will continue and there is only so long you can firefight without ever putting out the flames before the house burns down and wenger is very close to burning completely.

I had faith in wenger until the poor end to the season. Reflecting back there is no excuse for not winning a cc or fa cup in 7 years and we need a man that can deliver that – of course those managers exist and of course that is what we should be aiming for as a minimum.

[AKBapologist]

Although you could add that the starting point was a position which was created by wenger for not strengthening the team a lot earlier in the summer.
Starting point being the rest of the top 6 massivily out spending us, us losing players to richer clubs whilst failing to get transfer targets because the elected to go to richer clubs?

Wenger can be blamed for a lot, but if all the other shit wasn't as heavily stacked against us, we'd be in a much more healthier state.

[Kano]

Starting point being the rest of the top 6 massivily out spending us, us losing players to richer clubs whilst failing to get transfer targets because the elected to go to richer clubs?

Wenger can be blamed for a lot, but if all the other shit wasn't as heavily stacked against us, we'd be in a much more healthier state.
wenger has had more than enough talent to win a cup competition over the past 7 years - the failings in that regard have nowt to do with anything off the pitch.

[Flavs]

Actually i am going to go on the record here and say that for the first time in a while I DON'T want Wenger sacked. I am more intrigued as to the effect the Bould/Banfield input will have as well as seeing how effective we are ion the transfer market both in and out this summer. I am also intrigued to see which of the kids is allowed to leave and if any make the first team squad next year.

In fact i am quite optimistic about this coming summer so far and am happy to be where we are.

But, should we get to xmas and shit all has changed then i will revert back to my sack Wenger opinion.

[Marc Overmars]

wenger has had more than enough talent to win a cup competition over the past 7 years - the failings in that regard have nowt to do with anything off the pitch.

Agreed. Things in the transfer market might be out of our control.

Needing to win 1 game at Wembley against an Alex McLeish side wasn't.

[Kano]

Agreed. Things in the transfer market might be out of our control.

Needing to win 1 game at Wembley against an Alex McLeish side wasn't.
i would absolutely love for things to change for the better for wenger and we all live happily ever after but it has gone too far now.

he is doing very good as a manager but we can do even better with the groundwork he has laid out for us.

try telling montpellier that it can't be done.

[AKBapologist]

Agreed. Things in the transfer market might be out of our control.

Needing to win 1 game at Wembley against an Alex McLeish side wasn't.
Maybe we should get Alex Mcleish as manager because being able to win one game at wembley is the most important thing right? I hear he's available.

[Kano]

Maybe we should get Alex Mcleish as manager? I hear he's available.
expertly avoided the question. well done.

[Marc Overmars]

Maybe we should get Alex Mcleish as manager because being able to win one game at wembley is the most important thing right? I hear he's available.

What?

I mentioned it because it is the most extreme example of why fans may place more importance and significance on internal matters, things we can control, rather than accepting the idea we'll never compete again because of the current climate.

If we had managed to pick up a cup or 2 during these barren years, I'm sure people would be a lot less jaded and disconcerting towards Wenger and his ability right now, I know I would be.

[Flavs]

Thing is are we actually trying to compete in the transfer market with Citeh/PSG/Malaga and so on?

The way i see it is that we have a pool of players we can shop from, teams in lower leagues , teams who aren't in Europe, teams who are in Europe but not with the prestige of us, players no-one has ever heard of, the whole of south america and so on.

The only players we cant buy IMO are the ones already at the rich clubs or at least the first teamer's and the ones who carry media prestige and have the pimpy agents, like Hazard, Ganso, and so on.

Where i think we need to alter our policy, and this seems to be happening, is that we need to balance the amount of young talent/potential with proven first team players. Less Denilson more Arteta if you see what I mean.

[AKBapologist]

expertly avoided the question. well done.
What, because AW hasn't won a final since 2005 we should get someone else who has?

Pointless thread.

It's not black and white. Some managers who are good on paper just might not be a good fit for a club, and for every pardew, there are hodgsons, AVB's etc etc. Essencially, changing AW for anyone else is far less likely to bring any cups than just spending a load of money on decent players transfers and wages.

[Joker]

Thing is are we actually trying to compete in the transfer market with Citeh/PSG/Malaga and so on?

The way i see it is that we have a pool of players we can shop from, teams in lower leagues , teams who aren't in Europe, teams who are in Europe but not with the prestige of us, players no-one has ever heard of, the whole of south america and so on.

The only players we cant buy IMO are the ones already at the rich clubs or at least the first teamer's and the ones who carry media prestige and have the pimpy agents, like Hazard, Ganso, and so on.

Where i think we need to alter our policy, and this seems to be happening, is that we need to balance the amount of young talent/potential with proven first team players. Less Denilson more Arteta if you see what I mean.

True, the problem is Wenger's got this snobbish attitude towards buying players from the Premier League. That's why we didn't go for Scott Parker. We don't need to be competing in the same market as City, there are always quality available if you look properly. We've signed players like Sagna, Vermaelen, Koscielny who've turned out to be good players, there's no reason why we can't look for more of the same.

[GP]

True, the problem is Wenger's got this snobbish attitude towards buying players from the Premier League. That's why we didn't go for Scott Parker. We don't need to be competing in the same market as City, there are always quality available if you look properly. We've signed players like Sagna, Vermaelen, Koscielny who've turned out to be good players, there's no reason why we can't look for more of the same.

To be fair, we didn't sign parker because he's shit.

Wenger got that one spot on.

[Kano]

What, because AW hasn't won a final since 2005 we should get someone else who has?

Pointless thread.

It's not black and white. Some managers who are good on paper just might not be a good fit for a club, and for every pardew, there are hodgsons, AVB's etc etc. Essencially, changing AW for anyone else is far less likely to bring any cups than just spending a load of money on decent players transfers and wages.
no, because wenger has failed to address the same problems in the team, issues very much under his control and influence that would of had a significant difference in how certain seasons developed.

that is why it is time to go.

you don’t need to spend crazy money to win a cup or two, or even make an effort to win one.

you are right, some managers may look good on paper but who the fuck was wenger before he came here? That is what we all asked. Are you saying no one could ever do the same again ever and that he is completely unique to footballing history? That a club the size of arsenal cannot source a manager capable of maintaining the current static situation and developing it further – which does not mean winning prem after prem but at least getting us to lift a trophy for a while or really challenge for one.

[Joker]

We do need a new manager IMO, Wenger doesn't seem to have the ability to win trophies anymore. There's no point whinging about City's wealth when we fail to beat a side like Birmingham (with vastly inferior resources) in the Carling Cup final. In fact look at our record in semi finals/finals since 2005 and it's been abysmal. Wenger's a safe pair of hands to keep us in the top 4, but he seems to have become so obsessed with treating this club like a business that some of that competitive desire in terms of winning trophies seems to have gone.

That's without mentioning the fact that tactically, I think he's been extremely mediocre for a good while now. This doesn't mean we want Alex McCleish or Steve Kean to take over, but there are clearly many managers out there who have a better understanding of tactics and how to put together a team that complements each other than Wenger. You only need to look at difficulty keeping hold of leads to see that Wenger is clueless when it comes to that side of the game.

[AKBapologist]

You don't have do much to win a cup tbh, thats the entire fucking point. Mostly, luck, ref decisions, injuries have way more greater influence than what ever wenger did or didn't say to koscienly on that fateful day.

[Kano]

You don't have do much to win a cup tbh, thats the entire fucking point. Mostly, luck, ref decisions, injuries have way more greater influence than what ever wenger did or didn't say to koscienly on that fateful day.
oh fuck off - so it's everyone else's fault but wengers? have a word with yourself.

[AKBapologist]

Also, you can't have it both ways, either the squad was good enough (which you should give credit to the manager for doing) or it hasn't been. So many times you've twisted that argument to suit what ever point your trying to make.

[Joker]

You don't have do much to win a cup tbh, thats the entire fucking point. Mostly, luck, ref decisions, injuries have way more greater influence than what ever wenger did or didn't say to koscienly on that fateful day.

We've screwed up consistently in cup semis/finals for a while now, just look at:
Chelsea in the Carling Cup Final 06-07
Spurs in the Carling Cup Semi-final 07-08
Man Utd in the Champions League Semi-final 08-09
Chelsea in the FA Cup Semi-Final 08-09
Birmingham in the Carling Cup Final 10-11

You can't just put all that down to random chance. It takes a certain mentality to be able to come through these types of games, and it's clear the manager hasn't been able to instill that sort of mentality into the players. If you say, well that's because the players aren't capable of coping in big games, well then the manager bought these players, so the buck stops with him.

[AKBapologist]

oh fuck off - so it's everyone else's fault but wengers? have a word with yourself.
No, I just don't have the same idiotic belief that changing the manager solves won't replace one set of problems with another. Too many clubs over the last season have tried and failed to do exactly what your suggesting, so much so that most outside of here have begun to get a hint.

[Kano]

No, I just don't have the same idiotic belief that changing the manager solves won't replace one set of problems with another. Too many clubs over the last season have tried and failed to do exactly what your suggesting, so much so that most outside of here have begun to get a hint.
so we stick with wenger forever is what you are saying?

[Joker]

There's always a risk with changing a manager, but we can't be so conservative that just because it could end up leaving us in a worse position we won't change the manager. We're stagnating as a club, and while changing the manager won't be a panacea it is needed as a first step IMO.

[Kano]

Also, you can't have it both ways, either the squad was good enough (which you should give credit to the manager for doing) or it hasn't been. So many times you've twisted that argument to suit what ever point your trying to make.
the squad has been good enough - which is down to wenger.

but the organisation of said squad has not been - which is also down to wenger.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No, I just don't have the same idiotic belief that changing the manager solves won't replace one set of problems with another. Too many clubs over the last season have tried and failed to do exactly what your suggesting, so much so that most outside of here have begun to get a hint.

Nobody believes that changing the manager is going to solve all the problems. But it could be a component along with a whole host of factors in improving the competitiveness of a team that has gone stale.

[LDG]

the squad has been good enough - which is down to wenger.

but the organisation of said squad has not been - which is also down to wenger.

:faint:

Reality.

When it hits home.

It's like.

Woooooaaaaah Dude!!

:faint:

[Kano]

sadly my eureka moment happened on a football forum

[AKBapologist]

the squad has been good enough - which is down to wenger.

but the organisation of said squad has not been - which is also down to wenger.
Show me a manager who has done more, with less, consistently been in more cup finals and finished above us on less resources, show me that, with actual stats, that the problems we had last season are indeed the same we had this season, and I'll happy submit to your world view that wenger doesn't know how to organise a team.

Other wise, fuck off.

[AKBapologist]

Nobody believes that changing the manager is going to solve all the problems. But it could be a component along with a whole host of factors in improving the competitiveness of a team that has gone stale.

Another question. Do you think that Wenger, if he took over Man City tomorrow, would have more or less success than Mancini did this season?

[Kano]

Show me a manager who has done more, with less, consistently been in more cup finals and finished above us on less resources, show me that, with actual stats, that the problems we had last season are indeed the same we had this season, and I'll happy submit to your world view that wenger doesn't know how to organise a team.

Other wise, fuck off.
oh you want a stat wank off on the internet?

luv-a-duck you knobhead.

while you are there, can you highlight the part where i said wenger cannot organise a team?

basically, benitez, some tottenham ****, avram grant etc have all managed to win a cup - why hasn't wenger?

oh yes of course, it is those big bad refewees that do it.

seriously, the wenger dream is over, so make steps to get over it.

he'll always be a legend and a hero for the club but he did not change his coaching approach post invincibles and has paid the price.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Another question. Do you think that Wenger, if he took over Man City tomorrow, would have more or less success than Mancini did this season?

My opinion is nothing to do with Mancini, but I'll go with this anyway. I think he would do at least as well as Mancini has done. I think Wenger is a better manager than he is perceived to be, but we do need a change and I think he does as well. Things have been stale at our Club for a long time.

[AKBapologist]

oh you want a stat wank off on the internet?

love-a-duck you knobhead.

while you are there, can you highlight the part where i said wenger cannot organise a team?

basically, benitez, some tottenham ****, avram grant etc have all managed to win a cup - why hasn't wenger?
IF all those managers, none who still have there jobs at those clubs, have won cups, what does that say about the cups?

It's like you've been brain washed by typical pundit bullshit and can't even realise that your infact diminishing your own point.

[Kano]

you still haven't pointed out where i have said he can't organise a team? please do so.

right, so the cups mean nothing then? so the fans that would've gone nuts at home and at wembley against birmingham would've been making mugs of themselves and arsenal are far and above winning such low tin pots?

i have been a ticket season holder for 20 years, defending wenger all the way until we went round on a loop again this season. it wasn't even the start or middle that got to me but the stumble towards the finish. the realisation isn't a nice one that wenger will not change, the problems with the team will not change until he leaves.

so you are saying wenger forever and ever then?

[AKBapologist]

My opinion is nothing to do with Mancini, but I'll go with this anyway. I think he would do at least as well as Mancini has done. I think Wenger is a better manager than he is perceived to be, but we do need a change and I think he does as well. Things have been stale at our Club for a long time.
But if he's physically incapable of winning a trophy how could this be possible?

[Xhaka Can’t]

But if he's physically incapable of winning a trophy how could this be possible?

I don't think he will win another trophy with us. It has gone stale, we need a fresh start, so does Wenger.

[AKBapologist]

you still haven't pointed out where i have said he can't organise a team? please do so.

right, so the cups mean nothing then? so the fans that would've gone nuts at home and at wembley against birmingham would've been making mugs of themselves and arsenal are far and above winning such low tin pots?

i have been a ticket season holder for 20 years, defending wenger all the way until we went round on a loop again this season. it wasn't even the start or middle that got to me but the stumble towards the finish. the realisation isn't a nice one that wenger will not change, the problems with the team will not change until he leaves.

so you are saying wenger forever and ever then?
Ideally, give him a billion pounds and the pressure to spend it. It's much more likely to get us instant success than replacing him with anyone available.

[Flavs]

Where has the other thread gone :unsure:

[Cripps_orig]

Where has the other thread gone :unsure:This one?

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1451

[Kano]

Ideally, give him a billion pounds and the pressure to spend it. It's much more likely to get us instant success than replacing him with anyone available.
no, don't cop out again.

you started giving it the big 'un, so answer the points.

are we bigger than the cups now?

are the fans stupid for wanting to win one of them?

as no one is good enough in the whole world, what do we do when wenger dies, shut up shop?

[AKBapologist]

no, don't cop out again.

you started giving it the big 'un, so answer the points.

are we bigger than the cups now?

are the fans stupid for wanting to win one of them?

as no one is good enough in the whole world, what do we do when wenger dies, shut up shop?
Yeah, you've stopped making sense now. (well, you did a while ago but *shrugs*)

[GP]

:lol:

What a shit thread.

I mean, it started out well, but quickly descended into a cripple fight.

[Kano]

Yeah, you've stopped making sense now. (well, you did a while ago but *shrugs*)
let me spoon fed you again:
IF all those managers, none who still have there jobs at those clubs, have won cups, what does that say about the cups?
are we bigger than the cups now?

IF all those managers, none who still have there jobs at those clubs, have won cups, what does that say about the cups?

Ideally, give him a billion pounds and the pressure to spend it. It's much more likely to get us instant success than replacing him with anyone available.
as no one is good enough in the whole world, what do we do when wenger dies, shut up shop?

surely even you, the master of avoiding answering a question directly can figure that out?

[Kano]

:lol:

What a shit thread.

I mean, it started out well, but quickly descended into a cripple fight.
yes lets talk about sand coons and avoid giving any sort of valid comment about arsenal.

thats what the forum is for right?

[Cripps_orig]

I take full responsibility for the thread turning to shit.

I get blamed for everything else tbh

[Joker]

yes lets talk about sand coons, thats what the forum is for right?

Well said, that's another reason why more people don't join this forum, when so many threads are full of racist references to Arabs. Those who make these comments will say, "Oh we're only joking", but what does it look like to a guest to the forum?

[Cripps_orig]

Well said, that's another reason why more people don't join this forum, when so many threads are full of racist references to Arabs. Those who make these comments will say, "Oh we're only joking", but what does it look like to a guest to the forum?Harsh

Mods* are doing a fine job of modding this forum**




* By Mods i dont mean Maccy

** Note the sarcasm

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Me. :bow:

[Syn]

We've been good for at least a couple of trophies in the long, long, painful, disastrous seven years. The margin between success and what-some-consider-to-be failure is very small and a bit of luck would've seen us pick up a league or FA Cup or something. It's not just luck, there have been some mental issues that have been responsible too, but you don't have to be a perfect team to win. As I say, little things going for us here and there and we'd have had some 'success'. I don't worry too much about that. We could win another trophy with Wenger in charge. I know the whole point of a messageboard is to share opinions but the bullish "this will never happen", 'that can't happen', 'we can't finish above Tottenham now' stuff, I take with a pinch of salt.

Obviously the issue is more whether Wenger our best chance to progress; not just picking up a domestic cup trophy but getting us to compete for the title. Maybe the manager should remain less reactionary than the fans - many of us might've lost patience with Van Persie and sold him for his injury troubles, but I think a manager should be more proactive. The tactics and lack of direction on the pitch this season has been awful management. Wenger's best chance of getting success is filling a squad with talented players and hoping they sort it out themselves. Have a strong leader (which I think Van Persie is) and a few fighters in midfield. I think we've badly missed Wilshere but losing all 3 (Nasri, Fabregas and Wilshere) was a massive handicap. Having just one of them available would've made a massive difference because we don't seem to have any creative midfielders right now. That's something that needs to be sorted out for next season.

But rather than Wenger's tactical failings (I think it's natural for fans to over-analyse that. It really does happen at every club that fans think "why the fuck is he playing? What was X doing for the goal conceded? etc), it's more that I don't believe he will demand what it takes to become the best. I think he wants to win. But I think he is too optimistic and is looking for too many 'maybes' like Diaby or Wilshere to turn into a 'yes' like for Van Persie this season.

[Marc Overmars]

I believe it's Dune Coons...

[Joker]

Harsh

Mods* are doing a fine job of modding this forum**




* By Mods i dont mean Maccy

** Note the sarcasm

I'm not calling for "PC gone mad" Stalinist dictatorship at all, but I do think some ground rules need to be in place when it comes to racism, homophobia, etc. On other forums they delete posts that contravene these rules. However, that doesn't stop freedom of speech or people swearing or having heated debates. Maybe some of these "sand coons" comments are jokes, but like I said only regulars to the forum will realise that.

[AKBapologist]

let me spoon fed you again:
IF all those managers, none who still have there jobs at those clubs, have won cups, what does that say about the cups?
are we bigger than the cups now?

IF all those managers, none who still have there jobs at those clubs, have won cups, what does that say about the cups?

Ideally, give him a billion pounds and the pressure to spend it. It's much more likely to get us instant success than replacing him with anyone available.
as no one is good enough in the whole world, what do we do when wenger dies, shut up shop?

surely even you, the master of avoiding answering a question directly can figure that out?

Even though none of your questions have nothing to do with anything.
I would rather be where we are RIGHT NOW, and have the manager we have right now, than any other club in the league, and any other manager beyond SAF. Given cups are practically the luck of the draw, (I honestly think we would have beaten birmingham if RVP wasn't injured in the second half) basing the performance of the manager on them alone is a stupid thing to do.

There are "better managers" on paper sure, some might be a great fit for the club, the management, the ethos, and the squad, most won't, and most of the managers who could do better are otherwise pre-occupied at bigger or richer clubs. Instead of conceeding the point that changing manager is more likely to do more harm than good, given the evidence (looking at the EPL over the last 5 years) - your suggesting it's the best way. It isn't. Giving AW loads of money is, given the evidence.

Why that is so difficult to swallow for you lot has more to do with you than anything else tbh.

[Joker]

Even though none of your questions have nothing to do with anything.
I would rather be where we are RIGHT NOW, and have the manager we have right now, than any other club in the league, and any other manager beyond SAF. Given cups are practically the luck of the draw, (I honestly think we would have beaten birmingham if RVP wasn't injured in the second half) basing the performance of the manager on them alone is a stupid thing to do.

There are "better managers" on paper sure, some might be a great fit for the club, the management, the ethos, and the squad, most won't, and most of the managers who could do better are otherwise pre-occupied at bigger or richer clubs. Instead of conceeding the point that changing manager is more likely to do more harm than good, given the evidence (looking at the EPL over the last 5 years) - your suggesting it's the best way. It isn't. Giving AW loads of money is, given the evidence.

Why that is so difficult to swallow for you lot has more to do with you than anything else tbh.

Well we've had some extremely easy runs in cups and still haven't ended up with a trophy. Our run to the final of the CC wasn't the most taxing, and we managed to avoid Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool etc. The same when we went to the semi final against Chelsea, we only faced one top division club in that run (Hull in the previous round).

So even if your argument about the luck of the draw is true, we've benefited from that at times and still haven't capitalised, falling at the first "serious" challenge we face.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not calling for "PC gone mad" Stalinist dictatorship at all, but I do think some ground rules need to be in place when it comes to racism, homophobia, etc. On other forums they delete posts that contravene these rules. However, that doesn't stop freedom of speech or people swearing or having heated debates. Maybe some of these "sand coons" comments are jokes, but like I said only regulars to the forum will realise that.

To be fair, your own comments recently have been the most extreme I have seen on here.

[Joker]

To be fair, your own comments recently have been the most extreme I have seen on here.

Which comments are those then? If you're talking about the "vermin" stuff yes that was OTT and I apologise. However, it doesn't detract from my overall point though.

[Kano]

Even though none of your questions have nothing to do with anything.
I would rather be where we are RIGHT NOW, and have the manager we have right now, than any other club in the league, and any other manager beyond SAF. Given cups are practically the luck of the draw, (I honestly think we would have beaten birmingham if RVP wasn't injured in the second half) basing the performance of the manager on them alone is a stupid thing to do.

There are "better managers" on paper sure, some might be a great fit for the club, the management, the ethos, and the squad, most won't, and most of the managers who could do better are otherwise pre-occupied at bigger or richer clubs. Instead of conceeding the point that changing manager is more likely to do more harm than good, given the evidence (looking at the EPL over the last 5 years) - your suggesting it's the best way. It isn't. Giving AW loads of money is, given the evidence.

Why that is so difficult to swallow for you lot has more to do with you than anything else tbh.
again, questions avoided.

yes it's nice and fluffy where we are right now but football is ever evolving and you die unless you move forward - how long can we keep scraping into the top 4, juggling too much before we drop all the balls? i would rather be proactive than reactive.

basing the performance of a team over 7 years is more than a fair assessment. Sure a season or two is not enough but repeated patterns only lead to one thing – which is the staleness we face now. If i and many others didn’t believe we could not have achieved more during that time without breaking the bank, then the noise against the manager would not be growing but it is because we have all see the same things manifest again and again.

how can i conceded a point that we would lose more by changing the manager when that is based on nothing. do you think montpellier should give the title to psg this season? Or Dortmund give it to Bayern, before apologising for beating them twice?

money is not the answer here. getting the maximum out of the resources available to you is the key here and something wenger has not done for a while now, despite still doing a good job.

[Joker]

Still can't see how you can say cups are simply "luck of the draw" either. That's only one element of it. If you look at the history of both the FA and Carling Cups, it's teams that are generally successful that win those trophies (although you get anomalies like Portsmouth winning it). The fact that our performances in the cups has been so poor can be criticised.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which comments are those then? If you're talking about the "vermin" stuff yes that was OTT and I apologise. However, it doesn't detract from my overall point though.

Well it does a bit, because guests coming on here might have thought - wow! And the mods didn't do a damn thing about it - which is 100% correct because grown ups from days gone past knew very well that sticks and stones broke bones, not words.

[Flavs]

But I think he is too optimistic and is looking for too many 'maybes' like Diaby or Wilshere to turn into a 'yes' like for Van Persie this season.

This is where our transfer policy has come from until last summer as well IMO, early doors Wenger's magic hat was legendary, the board then saw this as a sur fire way to make shit loads of money with very little expenditure (Anelka £750k in £27mil out) and we formed a sketchy business model around that, out went the older higher paid guys and in came the young no names like Bendtner and Senderos.

Sadly its not worked and until last summer, when we were forced to change, we used that as our model to success, which didn't work.

Hopefully we have realigned to a more realistic approach now.

[AKBapologist]

again, questions avoided.

yes it's nice and fluffy where we are right now but football is ever evolving and you die unless you move forward - how long can we keep scraping into the top 4, juggling too much before we drop all the balls? i would rather be proactive than reactive.

basing the performance of a team over 7 years is more than a fair assessment. Sure a season or two is not enough but repeated patterns only lead to one thing – which is the staleness we face now. If i and many others didn’t believe we could not have achieved more during that time without breaking the bank, then the noise against the manager would not be growing but it is because we have all see the same things manifest again and again.

how can i conceded a point that we would lose more by changing the manager when that is based on nothing. do you think montpellier should give the title to psg this season? Or Dortmund give it to Bayern, before apologising for beating them twice?

money is not the answer here. getting the maximum out of the resources available to you is the key here and something wenger has not done for a while now, despite still doing a good job.
PSG will eventually buy the title after chopping and changing managers enough to finally find the right one. The other teams have at least had several seasons to build squads without there star players being poached every season form richer clubs within there league.

Within the EPL, there is virtually no evidence of a manager coming to a team and instantly producing sustained consistant success, Pardew comes close, but I'll give him a season or too before saying he's the second coming of SAF.

In most cases, by almost a factor of 5, the opposite happens. Which I think your completely unable to accept via ignorance or petulance.

[Kano]

PSG will eventually buy the title after chopping and changing managers enough to finally find the right one. The other teams have at least had several seasons to build squads without there star players being poached every season form richer clubs within there league.

Within the EPL, there is virtually no evidence of a manager coming to a team and instantly producing sustained consistant success, Pardew comes close, but I'll give him a season or too before saying he's the second coming of SAF.

In most cases, by almost a factor of 5, the opposite happens. Which I think your completely unable to accept via ignorance or petulance.
says the man who said, show me the stats or fuck off. just deal with the tone you created.

the point of dortmund and mont is that success is achievable in and amongst the money being spent by other teams.

you keep using the word 'instant' yet i'm pretty sure i haven't mentioned that at all in any post. me thinks its a cliched argument you are used to using against fickle fans demanding trophies now. the thing is, if you read actually read my posts, you would see that is not the case here, so try to adapt a little and evolve your position, as it is now looking dated.

it appears you are still clinging onto wenger eventually turning it all around and brining us the title, completely deluded to what is happening on the pitch.

[AKBapologist]

says the man who said, show me the stats or fuck off. just deal with the tone you created.

the point of dortmund and mont is that success is achievable in and amongst the money being spent by other teams.

you keep using the word 'instant' yet i'm pretty sure i haven't mentioned that at all in any post. me thinks its a cliched argument you are used to using against fickle fans demanding trophies now. the thing is, if you read actually read my posts, you would see that is not the case here, so try to adapt a little and evolve your position, as it is now looking dated.

it appears you are still clinging onto wenger eventually turning it all around and brining us the title, completely deluded to what is happening on the pitch.
I'm deluded?

You've (ironically) cherry picked one or two examples of clubs doing exactly what Wenger did with us at the start of his career, whilst completely ignoring what has been going on over the last few years in our league. I even threw you a bone with Pardew but then someone else would look at how newcastle got there in the first place. Add to that wolves or blackburn have got relegated, chelsea or liverpool and a few others and you can see that just changing the manager alone will garentee you fuck all on any timescale.

No, Wenger isn't the best manager in the world, he has many faults, but I look where we are, look at the positives as well as the negatives and form a balanced view that we're not too bad off with everything considered, that no, another manager wouldn't, by virtue of some naive ideal, inherit everything good from the last, and wouldn't need significant time to adapt over which, things could get significantly worse before better.

[Kano]

I'm deluded?

You've (ironically) cherry picked one or two examples of clubs doing exactly what Wenger did with us at the start of his career, whilst completely ignoring what has been going on over the last few years in our league. I even threw you a bone with Pardew but then someone else would look at how newcastle got there in the first place. Add to that wolves or blackburn have got relegated, chelsea or liverpool and a few others and you can see that just changing the manager alone will garentee you fuck all on any timescale.

No, Wenger isn't the best manager in the world, he has many faults, but I look where we are, look at the positives as well as the negatives and form a balanced view that we're not too bad off with everything considered, that no, another manager wouldn't, by virtue of some naive ideal, inherit everything good from the last, and wouldn't need significant time to adapt over which, things could get significantly worse before better.
i offered examples of clubs achieving success in the modern environment of money completely swamping the game - it was no where near this level when wenger arrived and was successful. two clear examples in two prominent european leagues proving that you can nick success here and there - very much in keeping with our tradition. yet according to you and some others, we would never be able to do the same - all of which is out of wengers control.

you have mentioned wenger has faults - what are they in your eyes exactly, because bar that headline statement you have not made any attempt to solidify what they are.

using your logic, wenger needs to stay forever as no one will ever be able to do the same for us and once he either dies or cryogenics doesn't work, our club is doomed.

you have this view that everything will get worse once he leaves - why so negative? why take the lazy easy approach and believe that things can't actually get even better than they currently are - it takes a lot more faith to do that than clinging onto false hope and a past now fading. this isn't about guarantees, as they do not exist in any sport but this is about having the balls to move on and grow - you can sit on your hands, play safe and protect your little world or take calculated risks and make something out of yourself, those are the options for arsenal. it seems you fall into the former category.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Utilisation of resources is the main one IMO. The frustrating thing for me in the last few years is that Wenger has done brilliantly to keep us 'up there' but really poorly in terms of finishing the job or delivering trophies. Too many times we've had promising sides who didn't need £100m spent on them to push them to the next level, just some sensible investment and instead we've sold our best players and gone backwards or sideways. We're in the same position now. After last summer's car crash we got it together and finished strongly (well, we didn't finish that strongly but we got ourselves in a position where we could stumble over the line). Do the right things in the summer and while I don't think we can win the league next year we can at least push the top 2 harder and maybe challenge more strongly in the cups. The early signing of Podolski gives me some hope that maybe, just maybe, we're going to get it right this year. But we need to sign up RvP too and maybe the signings are as much for him as for the club, to show that we are trying to go somewhere. If Podolski is a replacement for RvP then we might as well all go home.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Another similarly titled thread as so many others has moved from it's original and interesting topic to the 'lets all whinge at why there is no point doing anything because Man City spend hundreds of millions of pounds' topic.

Even if you think we face an insurmountable object, surely there are things we as a Club can do to improve our lot, unless you think we have become as competitive as possible with no room for improving our:

-management
-coaching
-players
-tactics
-approach to investment
-utilisation of resources
-ownership structure
-competition prioritisation
-salary structure
-star player retention

Or any of another multitude of things we should be considering. Just whinging at other Clubs spending hundreds of millions will get us nowhere and has become drearily repetitive on far too many potentially good topics on this board.

Bring in a man that is willing to give us money to win us the league. Bring in a manager that can cope with that.

Like you say we need to use the Resources we have and make sure we use them to the best.

IMO forget the league and focus on the cups for the next few couple of seasons anyway. So the lads can get used to winning then once we have ourselves in a place where we feel we can compete with the top 2 then worry about the league.


IMO its down to RVP if he goes then this thread becomes Irrelvant anyway.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Just read the thread from Start to finish.

Wow just Wow.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We do need a new manager IMO, Wenger doesn't seem to have the ability to win trophies anymore. There's no point whinging about City's wealth when we fail to beat a side like Birmingham (with vastly inferior resources) in the Carling Cup final. In fact look at our record in semi finals/finals since 2005 and it's been abysmal. Wenger's a safe pair of hands to keep us in the top 4, but he seems to have become so obsessed with treating this club like a business that some of that competitive desire in terms of winning trophies seems to have gone.

That's without mentioning the fact that tactically, I think he's been extremely mediocre for a good while now. This doesn't mean we want Alex McCleish or Steve Kean to take over, but there are clearly many managers out there who have a better understanding of tactics and how to put together a team that complements each other than Wenger. You only need to look at difficulty keeping hold of leads to see that Wenger is clueless when it comes to that side of the game.

Funny how Daivid Dein said he does and he knows him better then anyone else. Of course he has the abilty thats a silly coment to make its his stubboness stopping him doing it.

Yes we should have won the CC and Wenger does get his tactics wrong. But if the pressure was on Wenger to win something he clearly would. He could go to one of the top teams in france and win them the tophies as he'd get players who are suited to it.

I agree he needs to stop pandering to the board and more to the fans and this again is where he is failing.

IMO Wenger needs a change as much as we do.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Just read the thread from Start to finish.

Wow just Wow.

This. I love the way Joker keeps popping up between TT and AKB's posts. . .whats that about racism towards Arabs?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This. I love the way Joker keeps popping up between TT and AKB's posts. . .whats that about racism towards Arabs?

Joker thinks NQ is a Racist because, NQ hates the way City Operate.
He says NQ hates them because their foreign.
Joker seems to think NQ would prefer our board to city's cause their english.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

That post gave me a headache

Your face gives me a headache.

[Letters]

Me. :bow:
:lol:

:p

I created you. I can destroy you :ninja: *


* - probably not true as in any mod-fight Jof would be on your side.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Well said, that's another reason why more people don't join this forum, when so many threads are full of racist references to Arabs. Those who make these comments will say, "Oh we're only joking", but what does it look like to a guest to the forum?

Who has mention'd Arabs in a racist way, more then anyone Nationality?

[GP]

Your face gives me a headache.

:haha:

Charlie :bow:

[Flavs]

Who has mention Arabs in a racist way, more then anyone Nationality?

He talk good Engerlund ye-yey

[fakeyank]

Racist jokes are ok when they are Arab..

However Yossi Benayoun 'background' jokes are not

:ninja:

Just putting it out there..

:getcoat:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Your face is a joke.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Racist jokes are ok when they are Arab..

However Yossi Benayoun 'background' jokes are not

:ninja:

Just putting it out there..

:getcoat:

But its just banter is it not?

[Cripps_orig]

But its just banter is it not?To most, yes

To GWs RR? No

[GP]

Your face is a joke.

It's funny cos he's Sri Lankan.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

To most, yes

To GWs RR? No

RR?

[LDG]

RR?

Reading and Righting.

[GP]

Religiously Raping

[LDG]

Religiously Raping

Letters :bow:

[Letters]

Religiously Raping
Thou asketh for it.

[fakeyank]

But its just banter is it not?

Not Jewish jokes. Thats sensitive shit right there! Muslim, Indian, gay, arab jokes are banter though.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not Jewish jokes. Thats sensitive shit right there! Muslim, Indian, gay, arab jokes are banter though.

Unless your Tony Racistino :ninja:

[Power n Glory]

Not Jewish jokes. Thats sensitive shit right there! Muslim, Indian, gay, arab jokes are banter though.

'Sand coon' is like saying 'sand ni**er'. It's the net and I know some people are joking but there has to be a line. That should have been deleted.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is difficult, as people are pushing the envelope, but I believe the context is humorous. That said, what you are referring to is not something I would post myself.

[milla]

Racist jokes are ok when they are Arab..

However Yossi Benayoun 'background' jokes are not

:ninja:

Just putting it out there..

:getcoat:

Nothing wrong with calling him lesbo jew. He is what he is, albeit an ugly one. :coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

'Sand coon' is like saying 'sand ni**er'. It's the net and I know some people are joking but there has to be a line. That should have been deleted.

You do realise Star Wars is FICTION, right?

[selassie]

To challenge or win domestic trophies I think the squad needs a fair bit of surgery, I also don't believe Wenger is capable of delivering a trophy anymore.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

:bow: selaisse

Bringing us back to point

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Well we've had some extremely easy runs in cups and still haven't ended up with a trophy. Our run to the final of the CC wasn't the most taxing, and we managed to avoid Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool etc. The same when we went to the semi final against Chelsea, we only faced one top division club in that run (Hull in the previous round).

So even if your argument about the luck of the draw is true, we've benefited from that at times and still haven't capitalised, falling at the first "serious" challenge we face.

Sssssshhhhhh........... it makes more sense to blame 28 consecutive failed chances to win a trophy on the boogeyman.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

BTW, great thread before John the Baptist spoilt it.

[Power n Glory]

Sssssshhhhhh........... it makes more sense to blame 28 consecutive failed chances to win a trophy on the boogeyman.

Or maybe Wenger broke a mirror. The hex should be over now.

[Alan B'stard]

this wont change until a fan vaults the hoardings and manages to piss on all four corners of the pitch