View Full Version : Should we just accept our lot as a club?
This is not intended to be a thread about ambition. Every club and every manager should have an ambition to win the league. Whether they have the ability to do so is another matter.
There's plenty of debate about AW's pros and cons as a manager. My current view is that with no trophies fans could find fault in whatver manager we had. IMO the only manager who could pretty much guarantee a trophy with our squad is SAF. And he's a one off.
But most of the critcism of our players and manager seems to be based on the assumption that we should be winning the league, not also rans. I wonder whether its time to accept that our star has faded and that on the pure hard facts we will simply be making up the numbers for the foreseeable future.
Very few clubs stay on top forever. Who would have thought that Chelsea would be dethroned so quickly by an even richer owner. Liverpool looked like they were coming back under Benitez. Look how that ended. Blackburn are the first relegated premiership title holders. Villa, Newcastle, Leeds - all examples of clubs who had their time and gradually faded into obscurity. Manure have been on top for years - but are the biggest club in the world, with the best manager the country has seen. It may well be that even they have wilderness years once SAF retires.
We took a step up when Wenger arrived. Few would argue that Chelsea and City have been the main obstacles to our battle with Manure over the past few seasons.
Citeh have shown more clearly than ever before that money = titles. We are not paupers but only a fool would argue that we can compete with Citeh and Chelsea financially. In this changing climate does it not show welcome consistency to finish top 3 or 4 every year while balancing the books (and before anyone rages against our 'ambition' being solely to make money - this is not the point I am making. It is a fact that we have managed CL football every year while being the best example of a financially well run club that there is).
We are a still a destination club for good, if not the very best players. For the very best players we are a stepping stone, but can at least enjoy their services while they are young. We win far more games than we lose and are on TV every other week.
Is it time to accept what we have, and that we are not going to be title winners in this current cycle? And would it cause less angst to do so?
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 01:34 PM
This is not intended to be a thread about ambition. Every club and every manager should have an ambition to win the league. Whether they have the ability to do so is another matter.
There's plenty of debate about AW's pros and cons as a manager. My current view is that with no trophies fans could find fault in whatver manager we had. IMO the only manager who could pretty much guarantee a trophy with our squad is SAF. And he's a one off.
But most of the critcism of our players and manager seems to be based on the assumption that we should be winning the league, not also rans. I wonder whether its time to accept that our star has faded and that on the pure hard facts we will simply be making up the numbers for the foreseeable future.
Very few clubs stay on top forever. Who would have thought that Chelsea would be dethroned so quickly by an even richer owner. Liverpool looked like they were coming back under Benitez. Look how that ended. Blackburn are the first relegated premiership title holders. Villa, Newcastle, Leeds - all examples of clubs who had their time and gradually faded into obscurity. Manure have been on top for years - but are the biggest club in the world, with the best manager the country has seen. It may well be that even they have wilderness years once SAF retires.
We took a step up when Wenger arrived. Few would argue that Chelsea and City have been the main obstacles to our battle with Manure over the past few seasons.
Citeh have shown more clearly than ever before that money = titles. We are not paupers but only a fool would argue that we can compete with Citeh and Chelsea financially. In this changing climate does it not show welcome consistency to finish top 3 or 4 every year while balancing the books (and before anyone rages against our 'ambition' being solely to make money - this is not the point I am making. It is a fact that we have managed CL football every year while being the best example of a financially well run club that there is).
We are a still a destination club for good, if not the very best players. For the very best players we are a stepping stone, but can at least enjoy their services while they are young. We win far more games than we lose and are on TV every other week.
Is it time to accept what we have, and that we are not going to be title winners in this current cycle? And would it cause less angst to do so?
Yes, But we should still hope to win a trophy even if it is every few seasons.
Yes, But we should still hope to win a trophy even if it is every few seasons.
Problem is that non league trophies are a lottery. Yes you can aim to win them, but we are most likely still to come up against the top teams - and frankly you could often toss a coin to decide who goes through. Look at the CC and FA Cup finals this year for example. We haven't had the rub of the green in some cases - look at the CL final and the CC final for evidence - and we have been the authors of our misfortune in others. But I would say that realistically, in most cup comps all you can 'expect' is to be in the later stages. Winning is a fortuitous bonus.
too much emphasis is placed on the league, making this a very black and white argument.
If we aimed for some cups, then that is an acceptable middle ground that would appease most people.
If we accept we can’t win the league and any cups, then it really is time to close the doors.
stoke we ain’t.
too much emphasis is placed on the league, making this a very black and white argument.
If we aimed for some cups, then that is an acceptable middle ground that would appease most people.
If we accept we can’t win the league and any cups, then it really is time to close the doors.
stoke we ain’t.
Don't we aim for the cups every year?
Don't we aim for the cups every year?
i don't think we do - wenger doesn't seem to care much for them at all.
it's prem, cl or nothing.
we've been in too many semi or final failures to group them all together as bad luck.
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Problem is that non league trophies are a lottery. Yes you can aim to win them, but we are most likely still to come up against the top teams - and frankly you could often toss a coin to decide who goes through. Look at the CC and FA Cup finals this year for example. We haven't had the rub of the green in some cases - look at the CL final and the CC final for evidence - and we have been the authors of our misfortune in others. But I would say that realistically, in most cup comps all you can 'expect' is to be in the later stages. Winning is a fortuitous bonus.
Fair enough.
I don't think no one on here will tell us they were upset because we never won the league in the last 7 years its more to do with not winning the things we should.
This is where AW and the board get it wrong or have. I know winning a cup is not easy because its who you draw etc and the luck you get but i think we should be given the best chance we have to win the cups.
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 01:55 PM
too much emphasis is placed on the league, making this a very black and white argument.
If we aimed for some cups, then that is an acceptable middle ground that would appease most people.
If we accept we can’t win the league and any cups, then it really is time to close the doors.
stoke we ain’t.
I'd hope the played believed they could win the league regardless what the fans think. and id like to think they show that spirit the invincible's had.
But i think We need that winning mentality before we worry about winning the league. The club not just the manager but everyone in it needs to show ambition and aim higher or get left behind.
Flavs
15-05-2012, 01:57 PM
3rd is our target people should just accept that
I don't think we should accept it, no.
Our star will shine again.
Flavs
15-05-2012, 02:04 PM
"Runner up just means you are the best loser"
Lombardi :bow:
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 02:07 PM
I don't think we should accept it, no.
Our star will shine again.
Yes it will but how long will that be?
Cripps_orig
15-05-2012, 02:08 PM
Stop making the same mistakes season in and season out
If we continue to be trophyless after that then fair enough, we should just accept it
Not atm though
Yes it will but how long will that be?
Hmm. Being a football fan, and a Gooner. Next season. Hopefully.
We'll see.
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 02:16 PM
Stop making the same mistakes season in and season out
If we continue to be trophyless after that then fair enough, we should just accept it
Not atm though
True. Do you think We need to win the league or A few cups would be ok for now.
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
15-05-2012, 07:30 PM
We expect to challenge for trophies, not just give it the poor man act whining about how much other teams spend and laud how sensibly our club is run, sensible enough for the likes of Bendtner, Almunia, Denilson, Vela, Chamakh, Arshavin, Park aand countless others to be attached to us like liver spots on a geriatric because of our insistence on paying them a "fair wage" i.e a wage that is far in excess of what they merit or are likely to get anywhere else.
We expect that considering we pay some of the highest ticket prices in Europe that we get some respectful answers from the club, not just them getting Hill-Wood out of his coffin once a year so he can waggle a finger at us and tell us Harold McMillan style that "we've never had it so good". What he means of course is that they've never had it so good because although the trophy cabinet is empty finishing third and fourth every season must look very good on the balance sheet. But this isn't the 1950s anymore that when a Toff remonstrates with us we doff our cap and say "yes guv, sorry guv!"
We expect the Manager to be scrutinised for failing to win a trophy for seven years, the longest silverware drought in thirty years....and to learn from his mistakes and not just try and dismiss us with pre-programmed bullshit about the "quality" of the team.
We expect not to spend every Summer asset stripping like a club in Administration because we have failed to give our more ambitious players assurance of any meaningful strengthening of a deficient squad.
We expect that if we do finish a season empty handed, that the team will have put every sinue of effort into winning every game not just passing the ball about maladroitly in anticipation of something happening.
Munchies
15-05-2012, 07:46 PM
I just hope we can have an open top bus to celebrate a trophy in the future, I remember missing the 04 one :/
Seeing City yesterday just made me wish that we could win it, been a long 8 years now.
I'm seeing hope that things will be better. But even if we do get max effort out of our players - can we match the consistency that money can buy. Half of us are speculating that we would be better off without our manager but for all his faults is AW over-achieving with the resources at his disposal. Are we thinking that we should be achieving Invincibles standard when the football world has moved on?
Niall_Quinn
15-05-2012, 10:18 PM
I just hope we can have an open top bus to celebrate a trophy in the future, I remember missing the 04 one :/
Seeing City yesterday just made me wish that we could win it, been a long 8 years now.
Is there a written rule that says you have to win a trophy before you can have an open top bus parade?
jelgoon
15-05-2012, 11:23 PM
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
Olivier's xmas twist
15-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
This is not a shock is it though we all know they are money grabbing ****s.
we can do better and i feel this season we will see some major changes.
cricketsi
16-05-2012, 06:59 AM
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
Liverpool had a far worse season than me in my opinion, plus Dalglish pissed away tens of millions of pounds whilst moving backwards. Dalglish is not a fraction of the manager Wenger is, so it's not a very good comparison really.
Back on topic, I think a lot of disenchanted fans don't give enough credit to the job Wenger does do because of the perception that he's holding us back. I found a lot to enjoy in the season and finishing third in the end did bring a moment of joy, albeit a small one compared with winning the league, though I think others saw only negatives. It seems though that the people who are most annoyed with finishing third are the same people who predicted we'd have a terrible season and will never improve under Wenger and so on, i.e. those with the lowest expectations. You might think the lower your expectations the more easily pleased you should be, but it isn't so. So, either posters haven't really lowered their expectations as they say, or accepting lower standards still won't bring satisfaction. I think that although 7 years seems a long time, success is still too recent in our memories and we can't, as you say accept our lot.
Flavs
16-05-2012, 07:38 AM
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
They has spent £60mil on British "talent" though
Plus Kenny hasn't won 3 Prems and 4 FA cups and got his team into the champs league 15 years in a row while overseeing the rejuvenation and establishing of a world class business.
Just saying.
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
Srs?
If Liverpool had the season we've just had, Kenny would probably be getting a new contract.
McNamara That Ghost...
16-05-2012, 08:42 AM
Interesting the way Dalglish gets summoned to the US and given a hard time apparently, despite a season where he wins one cup and gets to another cup final - all in his first full season. Contrast that with the way our board behaves towards Wenger - not putting him under pressure at all. They have no ambition for success.
Well that makes no sense. Like GP alludes to it surely shows winning a cup and doing well in another doesn't matter a jot if you don't also do well in the league, as they know, that's how they will get their money back and be more beneficial for the club generally.
Olivier's xmas twist
16-05-2012, 08:53 AM
Srs?
If Liverpool had the season we've just had, Kenny would probably be getting a new contract.
Pretty much this is what happened when you let these Billionaires take over you have less time to get it right as they want quick results it has nothing to do with ambition.
Liverpool had a far worse season than me in my opinion, plus Dalglish pissed away tens of millions of pounds whilst moving backwards. Dalglish is not a fraction of the manager Wenger is, so it's not a very good comparison really.
Back on topic, I think a lot of disenchanted fans don't give enough credit to the job Wenger does do because of the perception that he's holding us back. I found a lot to enjoy in the season and finishing third in the end did bring a moment of joy, albeit a small one compared with winning the league, though I think others saw only negatives. It seems though that the people who are most annoyed with finishing third are the same people who predicted we'd have a terrible season and will never improve under Wenger and so on, i.e. those with the lowest expectations. You might think the lower your expectations the more easily pleased you should be, but it isn't so. So, either posters haven't really lowered their expectations as they say, or accepting lower standards still won't bring satisfaction. I think that although 7 years seems a long time, success is still too recent in our memories and we can't, as you say accept our lot.
You see its this perception that is the whole issue here. Look, I see the argument that says its defeatist to accept less than we achieved in Wenger's early years, that the manager has gone stale and that he has made mistakes. But when you look at what has happened to football since 2005, and look at trends rather than at individual events such as last Summer's debacle, it is very, very difficult to argue that its our manager's failings rather than increased competition from much clubs with much richer resources than our's that has seen us decline from top 2 to top 4.
If Wenger is stale, then its a pretty good type of stale that has continued to give us CL football, and retain our reputation (amongst other players/targets and pundits) for playing a good brand of football throughout the seismic shifts that have occured both at our own club and elsewhere all these years.
Fans (myself included), tend to see change of manager or players as the answer. But there are a hell of a lot more examples of these changes not resulting in success than otherwise. I just can't help thinking that if we make the mental leap of accepting that while we should aspire to be one, the truth is that we are no longer a championship winning team, we might judge our manager less harshly; find it easier to accept that our best talent will probably move on and appreciate that we are not in such a bad place, really.
Letters
16-05-2012, 08:59 AM
we've been in too many semi or final failures to group them all together as bad luck.
Don't you think the fact we've got to the semi-finals and finals shows that we're not indifferent to the cup competitions?
Clearly our priority is a top 4 finish and CL qualification. In this day and age that, unfortunately, has to be our priority. But we're not dismissing the cup competitions, we've regularly got to the latter stages but just finished the job. The issue has been mental resolve, not lack of interest IMO.
Don't you think the fact we've got to the semi-finals and finals shows that we're not indifferent to the cup competitions?
Clearly our priority is a top 4 finish and CL qualification. In this day and age that, unfortunately, has to be our priority. But we're not dismissing the cup competitions, we've regularly got to the latter stages but just finished the job. The issue has been mental resolve, not lack of interest IMO.
when they have been carling semi/finals in the main when the strongest possible team has not been picked, or the infamous semi against chelsea then we can see that they have not been taken seriously enough.
patting young players on the back for getting arsenal to that stage has backfired, instead of putting out the strongest team possible to finish the job. the bigger picture is arsenal and not personal rewards for the players. part of being in a larger squad is having to sacrifice for the greater cause at times.
either way, the reason we haven't at least nicked a cup or two is down to the manger and if avram grant, benitez, ramos can lift a trophy, then we should've been able to.
AKBapologist
16-05-2012, 09:22 AM
either way, the reason we haven't at least nicked a cup or two is down to the manger and if avram grant, benitez, ramos can lift a trophy, then we should've been able to.
:haha:
The way you've contradicted yourself without realising in this sentence is amazing. I bet you voted for Coyle in Jokers shocker of a thread?
you really are upset that arsenal fans might disagree with your view from the internet aren't you? poor lad.
Flavs
16-05-2012, 09:33 AM
Aside from last season Wenger has always treated the CC as a pain that he wants to do without.
When he first got here he loved the FA cup and we tried every year to go for it more recently its been seen more as the CC has.
Our whole approach to the CC final with Brum was a disgrace and one of my lowest points as a Goonah. However on the flip side the CC provided one of my top 3 experiences ever as a footie fan when we went to Anfield and destroyed them
Batista :bow:
AKBapologist
16-05-2012, 09:45 AM
you really are upset that arsenal fans might disagree with your view from the internet aren't you? poor lad.
Upset? More baffled that anyone capable of switching on a computer has such a muddled up thought process. I've seen members of the BNP use better logic to explain there prejudices.
bless, your attention is quite flattering
The Cup issue is a difficult one, Terry.
I think we are all agreed that Wenger has placed very little importance in the CC. I think that the team's approach to the CC Final was shocking - and one of the most high profile examples of the complacency that AW's teams tend to show in certain matches and usually get punished for it.
The FA Cup I'm not so sure. If we have under-performed over the past 7 years, save for that hideous game against United, I'm not sure its because we deliberately spurned the Cup. Wenger has made some curious decisions, for sure - not least leaving Arshavin out of the game against Chelsea, but as Letters says - our performance in teh competition does not suggest a non-priority. There is more room for pure luck in cup comps as againsty the league which tends to even these things up - and those 'lesser' managers you refer to as having won cup comps while we haven't will have done so by luck as much as good judgment. maybe we have suffered a bit in the cups from being on the back foot in the leaguemost of the time, but that's another matter.
The Cup issue is a difficult one, Terry.
I think we are all agreed that Wenger has placed very little importance in the CC. I think that the team's approach to the CC Final was shocking - and one of the most high profile examples of the complacency that AW's teams tend to show in certain matches and usually get punished for it.
The FA Cup I'm not so sure. If we have under-performed over the past 7 years, save for that hideous game against United, I'm not sure its because we deliberately spurned the Cup. Wenger has made some curious decisions, for sure - not least leaving Arshavin out of the game against Chelsea, but as Letters says - our performance in teh competition does not suggest a non-priority. There is more room for pure luck in cup comps as againsty the league which tends to even these things up - and those 'lesser' managers you refer to as having won cup comps while we haven't will have done so by luck as much as good judgment. maybe we have suffered a bit in the cups from being on the back foot in the leaguemost of the time, but that's another matter.
I would compare it to pre-youth project, where we were regulars in the final, winning it four times of course. Chelsea and United have both been regulars in the final over the past decade, as they have not taken the competition so lightly. so i do take on board the idea of luck and ‘rub of the green’ etc but the comparison with the ‘old’ arsenal and Utd and Chelsea shows how putting in the extra mile would pay dividends, at least once or twice.
06 Bolton – that was definitely a weak side
07 Blackburn – again a weakened side
08 Man Utd – Well we know what happened there and it is relevant to your point about being on the back foot in the league – you would have expected us to make the most of our league form and push forward in the cup but we gave that game away
09 Chelsea – Again, crazy decisions for the starting line up left us struggling before we even started
10 Stoke – A very weak team that got the deserved result
it wasn’t until this season ended that i’ve grouped together these ideas and the belief that wenger will not change his ways and do anything different going forward. Once or twice is fine but i can’t believe we were in such a bad position in the league that the cup had to be sacrificed every season.
Olivier's xmas twist
16-05-2012, 03:14 PM
it wasn’t until this season ended that i’ve grouped together these ideas and the belief that wenger will not change his ways and do anything different going forward. Once or twice is fine but i can’t believe we were in such a bad position in the league that the cup had to be sacrificed every season.
Its called following the money thats the name of the game. End of the day the cups don't bring us or any club much money as getting in the CL does.
This is where the tossers at the top of the game(fifa/Uefa/fa) need to blamed for ruining the game imo. All these lot are interested in is making money not better in the game. Maybe if it was only top 2 in the CL or the fa cup winners gets in the CL the cups would be taken more seriously.
You can't say Wenger was happy we lost to brum in the final of the CC because we got top 4.
wenger called the shots for the team selections for the continued cup oversights, so i'm not sure i agree money has much to do with it - winning one of them could've had a magic effect on the squads belief in pushing on in the league.
Olivier's xmas twist
16-05-2012, 03:26 PM
wenger called the shots for the team selections for the continued cup oversights, so i'm not sure i agree money has much to do with it - winning one of them could've had a magic effect on the squads belief in pushing on in the league.
Money has lots to do with it when thats what the board are after Even Arry fucked over the Europa league his team could win just to get in the Cl and get the CL money.
no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.
Olivier's xmas twist
16-05-2012, 03:38 PM
no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.
Oh yeah deffo there is no excuse why we have no lifted a cup and Wenger and the Board and all those that run this club have to take the blame for club, well and the players too.
That team we put out VS Brum should have beat them easy. Had Kos and Ches not messed up we probs would have won it. But i agree other Selections made by Wenger have been Stupid and have cost us the cups.
But If It was the Winners of the league who got in the CL i'd say TPTB would have done alot more to make sure we got in it.
no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.
Agree - but don't forget that we have also suffered astonishing injuries; done the hard part of the stadium project and had constantly to rebuild as well. I'm not sure we've juggled so badly.
Agree - but don't forget that we have also suffered astonishing injuries; done the hard part of the stadium project and had constantly to rebuild as well. I'm not sure we've juggled so badly.
please don't get me wrong, i haven't been an avid fan of wenger out or manically critical of arsenal over the past few years. we have managed to maintain our position in the top bracket against all odds at times and a season or two ago i probably would've argued that we have done all we could've.
it's more on reflection of the season gone, in particular the crawl to the finish line that has made me readdress some of the actions of wenger over the years.
please don't get me wrong, i haven't been an avid fan of wenger out or manically critical of arsenal over the past few years. we have managed to maintain our position in the top bracket against all odds at times and a season or two ago i probably would've argued that we have done all we could've.
it's more on reflection of the season gone, in particular the crawl to the finish line that has made me readdress some of the actions of wenger over the years.
I've enjoyed this thread. Bit of moderation. I reckon what you are saying is that everything considered if Wenger was the equal of SAF 10 years ago, and he is not now, results wise, he could have done better than he has. I think I agree with that - but with the proviso that he has over-achieved with a club of our resources. I think Wenger has declined. I guess the question is do we think he will change? Last Summer I did not think so. Now - with our finish despite the rollercoaster season, I think I would rather have Wenger than someone new, and I am hoping (new assistant; better camraderie; no key departures???) that he will show us that he can adapt and find the energy to push on again.
Coney
17-05-2012, 07:59 AM
I've enjoyed this thread. Bit of moderation. I reckon what you are saying is that everything considered if Wenger was the equal of SAF 10 years ago, and he is not now, results wise, he could have done better than he has. I think I agree with that - but with the proviso that he has over-achieved with a club of our resources. I think Wenger has declined. I guess the question is do we think he will change? Last Summer I did not think so. Now - with our finish despite the rollercoaster season, I think I would rather have Wenger than someone new, and I am hoping (new assistant; better camraderie; no key departures???) that he will show us that he can adapt and find the energy to push on again.
I'll go with that. :good:
I am still not sure to what extent keeping the money under control was necessary for the stadium rebuild which we did need and could have given the club serious financial issues. I share the frustration of those who say that maybe with a small spend on a couple of key players, we maybe could have won some silverware over the last few years - maybe even sneaked a title - and now that the basic stadium costs are sorted, bar a modest annual payment we can comfortably afford, I would have hoped we could have splashed out on players a bit sooner.
There are signs that we might change - whether it is Wenger actually changing his outlook or whether it is because he and/or the board now feel we can relax a bit on the buying front - it looks as if there is a serious intent to make some changes this summer. He has been quieter, not commenting much on the transfer front and has moved early for Podolski. He has also dropped very heavy hints of clearing out some dross. We'll (as usual) get a better idea over the next couple of months when we see who he buys and sells.
While a different manager with a different attitude from the board might have done better in getting results/trophies last year, I am not convinced any manager - operating on what is seen as the general financial constraints at the Arsenal - would have done better overall. We might have had someone who won us an FA Cup but in the same season saw us drop to 15th. While 'getting 4th' is not the be all and end all, not being in the top few for a couple of seasons could have a seriously bad effect on the club.
The project - getting a new stadium without getting into crippling debt - seems to have succeeded and it is time to move on. Wenger now has to do this or go. If he keeps RvP (a must, I think, even if only for one season) and in that time strengthens the squad and has a convincing year - maybe a bit of silver - then we can lose RvP next season on a free should he want to leave. In any case, I think we need to see a positive effort from the club to keep him now and to build the team around him that I think RvP is probably pressing for.
Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.
Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.
:wave:
Shame. The rest of your post was spot on.
I'll go with that. :good:
I am still not sure to what extent keeping the money under control was necessary for the stadium rebuild which we did need and could have given the club serious financial issues. I share the frustration of those who say that maybe with a small spend on a couple of key players, we maybe could have won some silverware over the last few years - maybe even sneaked a title - and now that the basic stadium costs are sorted, bar a modest annual payment we can comfortably afford, I would have hoped we could have splashed out on players a bit sooner.
There are signs that we might change - whether it is Wenger actually changing his outlook or whether it is because he and/or the board now feel we can relax a bit on the buying front - it looks as if there is a serious intent to make some changes this summer. He has been quieter, not commenting much on the transfer front and has moved early for Podolski. He has also dropped very heavy hints of clearing out some dross. We'll (as usual) get a better idea over the next couple of months when we see who he buys and sells.
While a different manager with a different attitude from the board might have done better in getting results/trophies last year, I am not convinced any manager - operating on what is seen as the general financial constraints at the Arsenal - would have done better overall. We might have had someone who won us an FA Cup but in the same season saw us drop to 15th. While 'getting 4th' is not the be all and end all, not being in the top few for a couple of seasons could have a seriously bad effect on the club.
The project - getting a new stadium without getting into crippling debt - seems to have succeeded and it is time to move on. Wenger now has to do this or go. If he keeps RvP (a must, I think, even if only for one season) and in that time strengthens the squad and has a convincing year - maybe a bit of silver - then we can lose RvP next season on a free should he want to leave. In any case, I think we need to see a positive effort from the club to keep him now and to build the team around him that I think RvP is probably pressing for.
Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.
:gp:
I reckon its a case of be careful what you wish for. No manager (not even SAF) is infallible. Only a fool would not have had serious questions about AW at the beginning of the season, bnut strip everything away, and he has once again out performed 17 Premiership managers, and been beaten only by the best manager the Country has ever seen and the richest manager the country has ever seen. Add the kind of football that we have produced at times this season, and there is much less of a question mark for me now over whether Wenger should be given the opportunity to push on and maybe change things a little bit to achieve this.
Alan B'stard
18-05-2012, 11:38 AM
This is not intended to be a thread about ambition. Every club and every manager should have an ambition to win the league. Whether they have the ability to do so is another matter.
There's plenty of debate about AW's pros and cons as a manager. My current view is that with no trophies fans could find fault in whatver manager we had. IMO the only manager who could pretty much guarantee a trophy with our squad is SAF. And he's a one off.
But most of the critcism of our players and manager seems to be based on the assumption that we should be winning the league, not also rans. I wonder whether its time to accept that our star has faded and that on the pure hard facts we will simply be making up the numbers for the foreseeable future.
Very few clubs stay on top forever. Who would have thought that Chelsea would be dethroned so quickly by an even richer owner. Liverpool looked like they were coming back under Benitez. Look how that ended. Blackburn are the first relegated premiership title holders. Villa, Newcastle, Leeds - all examples of clubs who had their time and gradually faded into obscurity. Manure have been on top for years - but are the biggest club in the world, with the best manager the country has seen. It may well be that even they have wilderness years once SAF retires.
We took a step up when Wenger arrived. Few would argue that Chelsea and City have been the main obstacles to our battle with Manure over the past few seasons.
Citeh have shown more clearly than ever before that money = titles. We are not paupers but only a fool would argue that we can compete with Citeh and Chelsea financially. In this changing climate does it not show welcome consistency to finish top 3 or 4 every year while balancing the books (and before anyone rages against our 'ambition' being solely to make money - this is not the point I am making. It is a fact that we have managed CL football every year while being the best example of a financially well run club that there is).
We are a still a destination club for good, if not the very best players. For the very best players we are a stepping stone, but can at least enjoy their services while they are young. We win far more games than we lose and are on TV every other week.
Is it time to accept what we have, and that we are not going to be title winners in this current cycle? And would it cause less angst to do so?
United and City spent huge. There is no catching those two for the forseeablee. We should be making more of a fist of things in the cups but beyond that shoring up 3rd place more comfortably is about as good as it will get for us.
And anyone giving it - 'fuck 3rd, id rather win the carling cup and finish 8th' needs to take a look at Liverpool.
United and City spent huge. There is no catching those two for the forseeablee. We should be making more of a fist of things in the cups but beyond that shoring up 3rd place more comfortably is about as good as it will get for us.
And anyone giving it - 'fuck 3rd, id rather win the carling cup and finish 8th' needs to take a look at Liverpool.
The way I'm reading things, if we win any cup next year while finishing 3rd we will have met fans' realistic expectations.
Marc Overmars
18-05-2012, 09:23 PM
The way I'm reading things, if we win any cup next year while finishing 3rd we will have met fans' realistic expectations.
I think many of us understand trophies aren't the be all and end all, and that it's probably better now to finish 3rd/4th than win a cup in isolation, but at the same time it's very frustrating to see us fall short in the cups when just a couple of them in the past 7 years would at least put aside the lingering fears about our mentality when it's time to deliver.
For me there is no other feeling like seeing your team win a trophy and it's something I'd love to experience again, because as good an achievement as 3rd is, it presents no real buzz to me as a fan.
Olivier's xmas twist
18-05-2012, 09:38 PM
United and City spent huge. There is no catching those two for the forseeablee. We should be making more of a fist of things in the cups but beyond that shoring up 3rd place more comfortably is about as good as it will get for us.
And anyone giving it - 'fuck 3rd, id rather win the carling cup and finish 8th' needs to take a look at Liverpool.
:gp:
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