Reality

[LDG]

Ok. City. Now chelsea. Buy buy. Aw still shit for STILL getting us champions league? This is the ultimate conclusion to a sad sad sad story of money winning over everything. Come on the arsenal. Let's fucking do it next year.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Football died tonight when Chelsea won that cup tbh. The game we knew and love is officially over. Football is now just a business. With the owner who invests more winning the thing.

[Letters]

Football :rose:

It used to be a sport, you know.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Russian petro dollars this year, Arab petro dollars next year.

Football is wonderful.

[LDG]

Ruined. The whole fucking game.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Dearly beloved we are gathered here today to mourn the passing of he beautiful game. Was a good sport once and we all enjoyed it and the games were a joy to watch even the CL.

We'll remember it dearly and miss it a lot

Football :rose: RIP

[LDG]

Sure zimm has some reasons why it's all wengers fault though. We'll skip round corruption for now and listen. Attentively. ARSENAL ARSENAL ARSENAL ARSENAL!!!!!!!

[AKBapologist]

Chelsea, losing until the 88th minute. City, losing against 10 man QPR until the 90th minute.

Maybe money buys you luck too.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Football. :lol:

Awful sport.

Come on Euro 2012. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

Wenget needs to sign Satan before his price goes up after the Euros.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Chelsea, losing until the 88th minute. City, losing against 10 man QPR until the 90th minute.

Maybe money buys you luck too.

Yes and Bayern Missing the pen was Chavs Mental Strength tbh. Nothing to do with how lucky they were.

[cricketsi]

Chelsea, losing until the 88th minute. City, losing against 10 man QPR until the 90th minute.

Maybe money buys you luck too.
Indeed, it's not even like with their ridiculous resources these teams were running away with things or annihilating the competition. They're ultimately lucky fuckers too!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Indeed, it's not even like with their ridiculous resources these teams were running away with things or annihilating the competition. They're ultimately lucky fuckers too!

Messi misses a pen in the Semi final against them

Robben misses a pen in the final against them if them winning it is not luck then football is really shit.

[Marc Overmars]

Biggest fluke in CL history.

Can't believe it. They're the 6th best team in this country FFS. As funny as it is to see Spurs miss out, I do actually feel for them. A little.

Might cut myself later. FML.

[Tipsychubbs]

They're the 6th best team in this country FFS.

Winning the CL is not about being the best team in your country, ever since it changed from winners only qualifying. It's just a big European cup competition, and like all cup comps luck plays its part too, however distastefully.

[Syn]

I know it hurts now. But - and I know it's hard to imagine right now - one day, we're going to look back on this, and we're going to cut ourselves. Think it might be tomorrow.

[Tipsychubbs]

People are also going a bit over board with the money thing as well. Bayern are a well run club that have used money earned from success, yet they almost beat Chelsea, messed it up for themselves and were edged out on penalties, which are always a lottery.

It's not money that's the simple factor here, lets face it Chavs have a mean defence, not quite as good as mourinho's but still well organized and decent, I knew just like Barca that if Bayern didn't take their chances there would always be a spammy goal/win for the Chavs after parking the bus.

[Master Splinter]

You should all man up and watch Nadal v Djokovic tomorrow to see pure, competitive, scum-free sport of the highest order.

Tennis :bow:.

Football :haha:.

As a great woman once said, it will change your life.

[gunnerrrrr]

Football died tonight when Chelsea won that cup tbh. The game we knew and love is officially over. Football is now just a business. With the owner who invests more winning the thing.
Its always been like that

[Letters]

Its always been like thatNo it hasn't.

[AKBapologist]

But lets face it, Chav's would be no where without the russian.

It's not that where bitching about how money directly contributed to this result, but overall, it's just sickening to see the richest clubs get rewarded with nigh garrenteed success.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Its always been like that

Nah it has not tbh. CL games none the less CL finals have never been this boring they used to mean something.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You should all man up and watch Nadal v Djokovic tomorrow to see pure, competitive, scum-free sport of the highest order.

Tennis :bow:.

Football :haha:.

As a great woman once said, it will change your life.

Pretty much Tennis shits all over Money Ball formally knows as football.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I know it hurts now. But - and I know it's hard to imagine right now - one day, we're going to look back on this, and we're going to cut ourselves. Think it might be tomorrow.

You've given me my first proper laugh tonight.

[Tipsychubbs]

No it hasn't.

When Man U were paying a 30m quid world record fee for a defender for Rio Ferdinand didn't people also complain about buying the title?

Whats the difference if a chairman has 80 million or 800 million. A zero. Who cares. Deal with it people and stop crying.

Porto won the CL not too long ago with a decent team, a top class manager, luck and balls. They were even playing a hardly flush Monaco in the final, who had beaten Chelsea in the semis. They weren't crying about money.

Montpellier if they don't bottle it are about to win the French League despite PSG's millions/billions. United took City to the last game of the season. People should stop whinging and realize that even though difficult, you can achieve stuff and win things without extreme amounts of money.

They've only just scraped through on pens after parking the bus for the whole game and getting a 34 year old cup final specialist to salvage an equaliser for them. that wasn't money, just the luck of the cup/balls whatever you want to call it.

[Syn]

You've given me my first proper laugh tonight. After all my Muller jokes, I'm taking that as an insult.

[AKBapologist]

When Man U were paying 30m quid for Rio Ferdinand didn't people also complain about buying the title?

Whats the difference if a chairman has 80 million or 850 million. A zero. Who cares. Deal with it people and stop crying.

Porto won the CL not too long ago with a decent team, a top class manager, luck and balls. They weren't crying about money.

Montpellier if they don't bottle it are about to win the French League despite PSG's millions/billions. United took City to the last game of the season. People should stop whinging and realize that even though difficult, you can achieve stuff and win things without extreme amounts of money.

They've only just scraped through on pens after parking the bus for the whole game and getting a 34 year old cup final specialist to salvage an equaliser for them. that wasn't money, just the luck of the cup/balls whatever you want to call it.

If Montpellier win it, watch as there best players, and manager get ripped apart from the club by the richer, bigger clubs. Happened to porto, happened to us, will continue to happen tbh. You don't need to be rich, or even good to get the odd cup win. But it almost certainly garentees you getting sustained success and the ability to hold on to your stars.

[Letters]

When Man U were paying a 30m quid world record fee for a defender for Rio Ferdinand didn't people also complain about buying the title? I can't remember, but football is more than 20 years old you know. That's just the Premier League. Sky promised us a whole new ballgame and boy did they deliver. They neglected to mention it would be so shit and soul-less.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

When Man U were paying a 30m quid world record fee for a defender for Rio Ferdinand didn't people also complain about buying the title?

Whats the difference if a chairman has 80 million or 800 million. A zero. Who cares. Deal with it people and stop crying.

Porto won the CL not too long ago with a decent team, a top class manager, luck and balls. They were even playing a hardly flush Monaco in the final, who had beaten Chelsea in the semis. They weren't crying about money.

Montpellier if they don't bottle it are about to win the French League despite PSG's millions/billions. United took City to the last game of the season. People should stop whinging and realize that even though difficult, you can achieve stuff and win things without extreme amounts of money.

They've only just scraped through on pens after parking the bus for the whole game and getting a 34 year old cup final specialist to salvage an equaliser for them. that wasn't money, just the luck of the cup/balls whatever you want to call it.

Utd Earn't that money through winning things not just had it given to them thats the difference. They spent through what they made.

And yes Chavs were lucky tonight really lucky.

[Tipsychubbs]

But lets face it, Chav's would be no where without the russian.

It's not that where bitching about how money directly contributed to this result, but overall, it's just sickening to see the richest clubs get rewarded with nigh garrenteed success.

Its not always guaranteed, even though eventually they'll probably get success. As far as I see it, a rich businessman invests in a business and expects certain results/success from that business. Even if he gets that, it doesn't make all other similar businesses meaningless. Many still carve out niches for themselves and achieve their own sucesses, in spite of the gargantuan wealth of the big businessman.

They don't use it as an excuse that all business is now dead and pointless because of those big businesses.

Arsenal are hardly poor. With the stadium meant to propel us into the big league, 6 years later, maximising our resources should enable us to compete and hold our own. Not every player can be bought, you can only have a 25 man squad, I'm sure we can buy decent players and carve out our own successes, there are enough decent players to go around, instead of getting complacent and complaining about other people's money directly hindering us. There may be indirect ways, such as tapping up, but we're still largely in charge of our own affairs. Money has always been around, it shouldn't be an excuse.

[Munchies]

Barca have been splashing out atleast £70 million each year along with getting rid of dead wood without letting them accumulate.

Buy Zlatan for an extortionate amount, use him for a season, get David Villa for £35 mill .

We would be right up there if we had sold the Denilsons/Diabys/Rosickys that have plagued the squad for the past 8 years and each year topped up on world class talent.

[AKBapologist]

Its not always guaranteed, even though eventually they'll probably get success. As far as I see it, a rich businessman invests in a business and expects certain results/success from that business. Even if he gets that, it doesn't make all other similar businesses meaningless. Many still carve out niches for themselves and achieve their own sucesses, in spite of the gargantuan wealth of the big businessman.

They don't use it as an excuse that all business is now dead and pointless because of those big businesses.

Arsenal are hardly poor. With the stadium meant to propel us into the big league, 6 years later, maximising our resources should enable us to compete and hold our own. Not every player can be bought, you can only have a 25 man squad, I'm sure we can buy decent players and carve out our own successes, there are enough decent players to go around, instead of getting complacent and complaining about other people's money directly hindering us. There may be indirect ways, such as tapping up, but we're still largely in charge of our own affairs. Money has always been around, it shouldn't be an excuse.
It's not about carving out a niche, it's about prioritising, and luck - for clubs like us. Money changes the dynamic, the expectations. You get a larger squad, a more stable set of stars, and a no bullshit attitude when things fuck up. It's laughable that season after season of selling our stars for profit, you still think we're largely in charge of our own affairs. The only reason why we have resources to maximise is because we've been a selling club for almost a decade now.

[Grebbo]

Spurs

:haha:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Barca have been splashing out atleast £70 million each year along with getting rid of dead wood without letting them accumulate.

Buy Zlatan for an extortionate amount, use him for a season, get David Villa for £35 mill .

We would be right up there if we had sold the Denilsons/Diabys/Rosickys that have plagued the squad for the past 8 years and each year topped up on world class talent.

And again There money has come through what they have made not by some guy who dumped money on their laps.

[jelgoon]

i agree. You cant criticize Man Utd at all. Ferguson won the title numerous times with players he brought through the ranks. No comparison at all with Man City or Chelski who bought their titles. Its all about squads - Chelsea's squads under Moronhio included top level cover in every position. Man City are the same. Thats what wins things.
Utd Earn't that money through winning things not just had it given to them thats the difference. They spent through what they made.

And yes Chavs were lucky tonight really lucky.

[Niall_Quinn]

Biggest fluke in CL history.

Can't believe it. They're the 6th best team in this country FFS. As funny as it is to see Spurs miss out, I do actually feel for them. A little.

Might cut myself later. FML.

Agreed, that's all it was, a fluke of epic proportions. But not the chav's fault, Bayern's fault for fucking up the 101 chances they made to win that at a stroll. You can't really blame the chavs for Bayern throwing it down the drain. Absolutely shit performance from Robben and Gomez. Even Nik Bendtner could have bagged himself a hat-trick tonight. You don't take your chances and you don't win matches. Drogba certainly knows how to take his chances.

[Tipsychubbs]

If Montpellier win it, watch as there best players, and manager get ripped apart from the club by the richer, bigger clubs. Happened to porto, happened to us, will continue to happen tbh. You don't need to be rich, or even good to get the odd cup win. But it almost certainly garentees you getting sustained success and the ability to hold on to your stars.

That may also be due to other external factors such as the status of your club and league as well. In that case, yes, money will always tempt the best players/coaches away if you're one of those clubs. I suppose you just have to keep building and keeping your profile up, can't do much about it. It's like a food chain. We're bigger than Koln, likely have more money for them, so we'll be a bigger draw for Podolski. unfortunately Barca/Real even Manu are bigger fish than us, so the cycle can go on.


I can't remember, but football is more than 20 years old you know. That's just the Premier League. Sky promised us a whole new ballgame and boy did they deliver. They neglected to mention it would be so shit and soul-less.

I think this is where FIFA/UEFA can have more control. If they want to ensure an even playing field, then share the wealth out evenly like the SKY deal promised and introduce some sort of salary/wage/transfer capping just like in some major US sports. Until then, the businessmen with the most cheques will always be exerting their power, just like in other professions.


Utd Earn't that money through winning things not just had it given to them thats the difference. They spent through what they made.

It's more admirable but as has been said business is business. Chelsea and Man City fans won't care, job has been done, they'll accept it. We just have to live with it because no rules have been broken, if it seems soulless, then let it be soulless. A win is a win in the history books.

What I don't like is the attitude that even as a well run club we can't complete against behemoth mega-raich owners. That's just not true, reasonably wealthy/well run clubs win stuff usually as well, not just the super rich. We shouldn't have a defeatist attitude. The team we have now, with a few judicious acquisitions can win the CL, if we had a tactically astute manager and a motivator. It's difficult but not impossible. It is a cup compo after all.

The league, well you need strength in depth to prove you're the best over 38 games, so maybe a bit more spending. Nothing obscene though. Chelsea have had their worst season in years, so have we. We've finished 3rd and they've finished 6th won 2 cups. They probably have more quality players and a bit more strength in depth, but they're not MILES AND MILES ahead of us.

We just need a new approach/manager and a more pro-active board. I refuse to believe we can't do it!

[jelgoon]

I agree about Robben. Absolutely shocking performance.


Agreed, that's all it was, a fluke of epic proportions. But not the chav's fault, Bayern's fault for fucking up the 101 chances they made to win that at a stroll. You can't really blame the chavs for Bayern throwing it down the drain. Absolutely shit performance from Robben and Gomez. Even Nik Bendtner could have bagged himself a hat-trick tonight. You don't take your chances and you don't win matches. Drogba certainly knows how to take his chances.

[Tipsychubbs]

It's not about carving out a niche, it's about prioritising, and luck - for clubs like us. Money changes the dynamic, the expectations. You get a larger squad, a more stable set of stars, and a no bullshit attitude when things fuck up. It's laughable that season after season of selling our stars for profit, you still think we're largely in charge of our own affairs. The only reason why we have resources to maximise is because we've been a selling club for almost a decade now.


Barca have been splashing out atleast £70 million each year along with getting rid of dead wood without letting them accumulate.

Buy Zlatan for an extortionate amount, use him for a season, get David Villa for £35 mill .

We would be right up there if we had sold the Denilsons/Diabys/Rosickys that have plagued the squad for the past 8 years and each year topped up on world class talent.

You answered this for me.

What about the money being spent on the likes of Vela, Bendtner, Almunia, Squillaci, Djourou, Denilson, Diaby, Chamkah, Park and more. Years and years of wasting millions, keeping them, not being able to sell them effectively because no one is fool enough to take them on at those wages. All this to promote pay equality in the squad for players that are not of the quality of those wages, compared to other clubs.

Those resources are being squandered on lightweights, overblown youth that shouldn't have been on those wages and deadwood. Think of the players we could have bought in instead, experienced pros like Mertesacker, Arteta, that wouldn't have been too expensive, as well as a few top quality signings. More of those and we'd be stronger, more likely to win stuff and convince out best players to stay, at least for a bit longer.

Where would we be now if that was the case? In a better position I'm sure. We used to do that, but we don't anymore. 6 years after the stadium and with regular CL footy that we've been told is essential and with manageable debt repayments, and super high ticket prices, we shouldn't have any excuses. Unless we're being conned.

[Niall_Quinn]

Chelsea and Man City fans won't care, job has been done, they'll accept it.

That's true, but it doesn't follow that opposing fans should sing the same tune. There should be continuous resistance to the ways these clubs do business. Otherwise it will become the norm and the natural conclusion of that will be far fewer clubs. That's what the mega rich owners want to see and we should need to be vociferous in our opposition to that if we want to retain even a fragment of the things we appreciate about football.

Funnily enough though, I don't think money played a huge role in the one-off game tonight because the chavs were embarrassingly thrashed in everything bar the score. For all their money they simply couldn't live with Bayern. And yet Bayern contrived to even things up. Their manager made a crucial mistake changing things when they were in the lead with a few minutes to go and utterly on top of the game. He was negative and he reaped a negative outcome.

[Tipsychubbs]

I personally didn't want Chelsea to win due to not liking Abramovich's Real Madrid-esque policy of ruthlessly sacking managers without giving them more chances, (even if they've had a relatively poor season, time is needed to build etc.) so I was hugely dissapointed that he's finally got what he wanted after all these years, 100 managers later!

But the money thing? I've long since grown used to it, no rules are being broken, nothing can be done about it. It makes things harder to compete against bottomless pockets, but not impossible since we are not the paupers we portray ourselves as. Sink or swim stuff.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i agree. You cant criticize Man Utd at all. Ferguson won the title numerous times with players he brought through the ranks. No comparison at all with Man City or Chelski who bought their titles. Its all about squads - Chelsea's squads under Moronhio included top level cover in every position. Man City are the same. Thats what wins things.

Pretty much. Its not about the money that is spent. Its about where the money comes from and most don't seem to grasp that.

[cricketsi]

That's true, but it doesn't follow that opposing fans should sing the same tune. There should be continuous resistance to the ways these clubs do business. Otherwise it will become the norm and the natural conclusion of that will be far fewer clubs. That's what the mega rich owners want to see and we should need to be vociferous in our opposition to that if we want to retain even a fragment of the things we appreciate about football.

Funnily enough though, I don't think money played a huge role in the one-off game tonight because the chavs were embarrassingly thrashed in everything bar the score. For all their money they simply couldn't live with Bayern. And yet Bayern contrived to even things up. Their manager made a crucial mistake changing things when they were in the lead with a few minutes to go and utterly on top of the game. He was negative and he reaped a negative outcome.
:gp: NQ tells it like it is, with or without the whisky.

[AKBapologist]

I personally didn't want Chelsea to win due to not liking Abramovich's Real Madrid-esque policy of ruthlessly sacking managers without giving them more chances, (even if they've had a relatively poor season, time is needed to build etc.) so I was hugely dissapointed that he's finally got what he wanted after all these years, 100 managers later!

But the money thing? I've long since grown used to it, no rules are being broken, nothing can be done about it. It makes things harder to compete against bottomless pockets, but not impossible since we are not the paupers we portray ourselves as. Sink or swim stuff.

Let's see if your singing the same tune when RVP goes to Madrid and Hazard to chavs or City.

Hell, a part of me will shed a tear when spuds "best team in over 50 years" gets ripped to pieces this summer.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Xhaka Can’t]

Let's see if your signing the same tune when RVP goes to Madrid and Hazard to chavs or City.

Hell, a part of me will shed a tear when spuds "best team in over 50 years" gets ripped to pieces this summer.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

How do you sign a tune?

[Cripps_orig]

Speak to Simon Cowell? :unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How do you sign a tune?

Abramovich will know.

[Tipsychubbs]

Let's see if your signing the same tune when RVP goes to Madrid and Hazard to chavs or City.

Doesn't bother me. I'm fed up with the direction of the club and I'm a fan. So what about the players, and I mean the 'winners' who are not just picking up their pay cheques but their hearts are in the game. After years of wasted potential and seeing other top players jump ship, I wouldn't blame a 29 year old who has carried the team for a season, for going for that last big move. Injuries have been unfortunate over the years, curtailing his seasons but you can't say he never tried. He always went on scoring runs before getting injured. This type of season would have been the norm if it wasn't for those injuries. He's also in a powerful position right now. I'd be surprised if he stayed.

Hazard? Well at least it shows they're not complacent, strengthening after winning stuff, that's a good thing and I don't care about the money. As I said no rules are being broken so what are we complaining about? Dignity? Honour? Respect? Tell that to our board who have their snouts stuck in the trough, conning us into a stadium move and making us pay super high prices for a sub-standard team and resources that are not being used to their potential.

My tune will stay the same until I see some serious change at the direction of this club.

[Niall_Quinn]

Doesn't bother me. I'm fed up with the direction of the club and I'm a fan. So what about the players, and I mean the 'winners' who are not just picking up their pay cheques but their hearts are in the game. After years of wasted potential and seeing other top players jump ship, I wouldn't blame a 29 year old who has carried the team for a season, for going for that last big move. Injuries have been unfortunate over the years, curtailing his seasons but you can't say he never tried. He always went on scoring runs before getting injured. This type of season would have been the norm if it wasn't for those injuries. He's also in a powerful position right now. I'd be surprised if he stayed.

Hazard? Well at least it shows they're not complacent, strengthening after winning stuff, that's a good thing and I don't care about the money. As I said no rules are being broken so what are we complaining about? Dignity? Honour? Respect? Tell that to our board who have their snouts stuck in the trough, conning us into a stadium move and making us pay super high prices for a sub-standard team and resources that is not being used to its potential.

My tune will stay the same until I see some serious change at the direction of this club.

Let's not just assume it's RvP who wants to go. Let's not overlook the possibility a board that has consistently held the cash tight and written themselves huge pay-offs won't be engineering exactly the same shit again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Let's not just assume it's RvP who wants to go. Let's not overlook the possibility a board that has consistently held the cash tight and written themselves huge pay-offs won't be engineering exactly the same shit again.

:gp:

The board seem to be getting away scott free in all this.

[forsberg2110]

The only way to save football is to put in a salary cap...Whats the point of of arsenal or even the other 18 teams to even play in the leauge if ManCity will just continue to buy every good player out there.. Why not just give the trophy to Mancity right at the start of the season. The purpose of sports is to win and if there is no fair possible way to win because ur team doesnt have the money, then whats the point of playing.

[-Xs-]

Salary caps may help but I dont think they work, clubs with money can just find more inventive reward systems for which to entice players

[Xhaka Can’t]

The only way to save football is to put in a salary cap...Whats the point of of arsenal or even the other 18 teams to even play in the leauge if ManCity will just continue to buy every good player out there.. Why not just give the trophy to Mancity right at the start of the season. The purpose of sports is to win and if there is no fair possible way to win because ur team doesnt have the money, then whats the point of playing.

Peter, did Stan put you up to this?

ps - I hope you know wtf I'm talking about.

[Tipsychubbs]

Pretty much. Its not about the money that is spent. Its about where the money comes from and most don't seem to grasp that.

But why do we need to grasp it? Do you get brownie points for one instead of the other? In history, a title counts as a title, no matter where the money came from, unless it was proven to be illegal, or unless there were other illegal dealings going on such as the Serie A match-fixing scandal which stripped Juve of 2 titles and relegated them.

So far, however distasteful, both Man City and Chelsea's title wins have been just as legal as Man U's, whether one chairman had 800 million to spend or 80 million. I've long since got used to it and I'm not really that bothered by it. It is what it is, and while its legally allowed by FIFA/UEFA, whinging about it makes us look bitter and envious, even though we may not be.

[hobson's choice]

The only way to save football is to put in a salary cap...Whats the point of of arsenal or even the other 18 teams to even play in the leauge if ManCity will just continue to buy every good player out there.. Why not just give the trophy to Mancity right at the start of the season. The purpose of sports is to win and if there is no fair possible way to win because ur team doesnt have the money, then whats the point of playing.

See i don't get this, we act like a different team was winning the League every season before The Arabs came to City.

The same thing some of you are saying about City, other smaller clubs fans have been saying about Us, United, and all the so-called big teams for years.

[Cripps_orig]

Cant remember when we or Man Utd have ever spent hundreds of millions of someone elses money to buy the league

[jelgoon]

Are you saying that the fair play rules wont change things? I think they will. Clubs cant make losses like before. And Man City are gonna make huge losses if they pay half their team £10million a year.


Cant remember when we or Man Utd have ever spent hundreds of millions of someone elses money to buy the league

[forsberg2110]

Are you saying that the fair play rules wont change things? I think they will. Clubs cant make losses like before. And Man City are gonna make huge losses if they pay half their team £10million a year.

Fair Play wont fix anything.. Because my understanding fair play means you cant spend more then you earn. So the big clubs earn more money then small teams like Wolves, So there is always going to be a divide. I rather see teams like Stoke, Everton etc battling for the title then knowing before the season starts who is most likely going to win. Whats the point of playing if you know you will never win the championship..

I really think its retarded when teams are content with finishing 4th last. In north America if you finish 4th last its a embarrassment , but in English football if you finish 4th last you have a celebration... Football is really fucked beyond repair

[hobson's choice]

FFP is great rule for the big clubs, it essentially prevents whats happened with PSG, Chelsea, Malaga and City

[hobson's choice]

Cant remember when we or Man Utd have ever spent hundreds of millions of someone elses money to buy the league

Yes we never had rich sugar daddies, but we where and still are more well off than other teams. And if we didn't have the money, we wouldn't have won anything.

Maybe i'm from a different planet or something, but in my life of watching football, i've never known of this time when money didn't at least guarantee a good chance of success.

The thing I ask anyone who goes on about this "buying the title". Is, what is the alternative in this day and age for clubs who are not part of the elite, who want to be part of the elite. Because rising up organically ain't happening today.
When the gap between the elites and the non elites is so big. And it's almost a curse for a non elite team to have a successful season or two, cause you know eventually, you are going to lose your team.

[forsberg2110]

Sheikh Mansour,Owner of Mancity is worth 15 billion pounds (this is him alone not including all his family worth)

Roman Abramovich worth 7.5 billion

Alisher Usmanov worth 11.5 billion



We should be able to play with the big spenders

[fakeyank]

Reality is that Spurs do not have Champions league football next season :haha:

[Ernesto]

i agree. You cant criticize Man Utd at all. Ferguson won the title numerous times with players he brought through the ranks. No comparison at all with Man City or Chelski who bought their titles. Its all about squads - Chelsea's squads under Moronhio included top level cover in every position. Man City are the same. Thats what wins things.

I think we've got to stop sucking the hairy balls of United on this subject. Their successes do not equate to the millions they spent on players. If that was the case, Blackburn could have strengthened accordingly in 1995 and not gotten relegated in 1999 (yes, you can say it was a succession of managerial cock-ups at Ewood that led to their demise, but the very limited transfer accumen they had is what I'm trying to highlight)

Fact is, United were spending big BEFORE they every won their first EPL title. However, because this was 'before football began' and before the inception of Sky Sports, the breakaway FA Barclaycard Premiership and the like, it's never heard of. It's conveniently swept under the carpet. We're all made to believe Man Utd did it the 'natural' way, which is untrue.

[Ernesto]

What really irks me is the fact that we always point to this mental fragility that we have. It's plain as day, it's clear for all to see. Why do we suffer from this? It's not like we're getting mugged (literally) or violated and struggle to leave the house. We're on a football pitch, FFS. We're meant to be spurred on by defeat.

Yesterday, Chelsea, after offering next to nothing all game, equalised in the 89th minute having gone behind in the 82nd minute. Remarkable. It got me thinking, we haven't done anything of the like since Sampdoria in 1995. Going 3-1 down with barely a minute left in extra time and staring into the wilderness. Schwarz steps up and scores a free-kick and we go on to win the tie on penalties. From despair to joy within the short space of 10 minutes.

Who were we playing under on this great night of European football? Stewart Houston as caretaker boss. Has a comeback like yesterday's, or at Sampdoria in '95 ever happened under Wenger? I honestly can't remember one. Meaningless EPL games come to mind (equalising at Sunderland in injury time a few years back having gone a goal down in the 89th min)

We seem to be incapable of anything 'special' now. We have our excuses at the ready. The last 3 times an English team has won the Champions League against foreign opposition, they've either scored a late winner/equaliser (or both!) or come back from a massive deficit in 90 minutes of play. I honestly don't think we can do that....:(

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fair Play wont fix anything.. Because my understanding fair play means you cant spend more then you earn. So the big clubs earn more money then small teams like Wolves, So there is always going to be a divide. I rather see teams like Stoke, Everton etc battling for the title then knowing before the season starts who is most likely going to win. Whats the point of playing if you know you will never win the championship..

I really think its retarded when teams are content with finishing 4th last. In north America if you finish 4th last its a embarrassment , but in English football if you finish 4th last you have a celebration... Football is really fucked beyond repair

I agree with what you are saying but the point needs to be tempered with the fact that finishing bottom of the table in the professional leagues won't see you relegated from the league. This is why you see teams like the Oilers deliberately tanking towards the end of the season to get a better draft pick. That sucks too, but is easily fixed.

[Power n Glory]

A huge oversight in this thread. Chelsea were looking terrible some months back under AVB. The players wouldn't play for him and he couldn't control his players or get a performance out of them. Roberto di Matteo came in and turned it around without spending a penny. The same crop of players but they play differently. If money was the key factor AVB would have been celebrating with the Chelsea players on the pitch tonight.

I agree with Tipsychubbs and Ernesto on this one. Money has always been used to win titles and this is nothing new. My opinion, the billionaire owners have only raised the profile of mid table teams and bought them Champions League/ Elite club status. They're new money teams and have come up fast. Paid for admission but it doesn't guarantee a great performance. As seen yesterday. Two different managers, same team, different performance. Of course, Matteo would never be able to pull this off with West Brom and he's not a better manager than Wenger all of a sudden, you need a good team to win.

We have no business complaining about success being bought. For starters, we've beaten Chelsea and Man City this season but if we somehow managed to make it to the CL final, we'd lose. We've been in the Champions League for 15 years running and even at our best with the Invincble team we had a chance to get to the final and only had to beat Chelsea, a team we had already beaten 3 teams in previous meetings that season but we choked. We also choked against Barca in the final but that's no disgrace and we also fluffed our lines for a semi when threw it all away against Liverpool when Theo had that amazing assist. 15 years of competing and Wenger can't win it. It's not money. We compete in that competition every year and have seen our best players compete year after year but they choke. We've seen our best players choke in the UEFA Cup final even. Furthermore, we've lost the Carlng Cup final against Birmigham.

People can't keep pointing to money as an excuse. It covers over Wenger's weakness as a manager. It's a factor in football but it's not our problem. We compete, lead the league with only a couple of months to go then go on terrible runs to blow all our progress. Teams that should be moaning are the teams that have no chance of seeing Champions League football without a sugar daddy. We compete every year and choke against big teams, small teams the lot.

[-Xs-]

Don't know really

That's chelsea team have been playing together for years, the core at least. AVB's mistake was in trying to change their formula. I doubt RDM did much other than to tell them to play how they know. A lot of money has gone into that team over the years, one could argue that they should have won it way before yesterday.

Maybe AW does build fragile teams, personally, I don't think there are enough 'winners' in our team, but maybe that is our own fault for wasting money on shit and not breaking the bank to keep and add to our core team.

[Niall_Quinn]

You assume di Matteo manages the team. If he does he must be a Mourinho acolyte (to a tee) or else he's just a front man while Lumpard and Big Man get on with things now their nemesis (the non-placeholder) AVB is out of the way. Terry and Lampard exposed themselves as anti-professionals this year.

[Power n Glory]

Don't know really

That's chelsea team have been playing together for years, the core at least. AVB's mistake was in trying to change their formula. I doubt RDM did much other than to tell them to play how they know. A lot of money has gone into that team over the years, one could argue that they should have won it way before yesterday.

Maybe AW does build fragile teams, personally, I don't think there are enough 'winners' in our team, but maybe that is our own fault for wasting money on shit and not breaking the bank to keep and add to our core team.

And what about Wenger's title winning teams? One of his teams should have won a CL trophy after all these years.

[Letters]

A huge oversight in this thread. Chelsea were looking terrible some months back under AVB. The players wouldn't play for him and he couldn't control his players or get a performance out of them. Roberto di Matteo came in and turned it around without spending a penny. The same crop of players but they play differently. If money was the key factor AVB would have been celebrating with the Chelsea players on the pitch tonight.

Chelsea's starting lineup, and how much they cost:

Cech £7m (and that was quite a while back when that was a LOT for a 'keeper)
Cole £5m (+ Gallas, they bid £16m)
David Luiz £26m
Bosingwa £16.2m
Cahill £7m
Bertrand - bought young
Lampard £11m
Mikel £16m
Mata 23.5m
Drogba £24m
Kalou £8m

£143.7m - 4 players in their starting 11 cost more than Arsenal's record transfer fee.

And while we're at it, Chelsea's bench last night:

22 Turnbull - Free
19 Ferreira - 13.2m
05 Essien - £24.4m
06 Romeu - £4.3m
15 Malouda - £13.5m
09 Torres - £50m
23 Sturridge - £4m

£109m. Sat on the bench. 2 players on their bench cost more than Arsenal's record transfer fee.

Yes, yes,, you need a good manager to get all that talent to play well as a team, instil team spirit. Fine. Although top managers generally cost a lot of money too so ultimately it does all come back to that. I agree with a lot of your post but it comes down to this: would Chelsea have won the CL without Abramovic? Would they have won their titles without Abramovic? Would City be champions without their billionaire backers? Would they balls.

To an extent clubs have always bought success of course but never so overtly as in the modern era and never by spending such obscene amounts of money.

[Power n Glory]

Chelsea's starting lineup, and how much they cost:

Cech £7m (and that was quite a while back when that was a LOT for a 'keeper)
Cole £5m (+ Gallas, they bid £16m)
David Luiz £26m
Bosingwa £16.2m
Cahill £7m
Bertrand - bought young
Lampard £11m
Mikel £16m
Mata 23.5m
Drogba £24m
Kalou £8m

£143.7m - 4 players in their starting 11 cost more than Arsenal's record transfer fee.

And while we're at it, Chelsea's bench last night:

22 Turnbull - Free
19 Ferreira - 13.2m
05 Essien - £24.4m
06 Romeu - £4.3m
15 Malouda - £13.5m
09 Torres - £50m
23 Sturridge - £4m

£109m. Sat on the bench. 2 players on their bench cost more than Arsenal's record transfer fee.

Yes, yes,, you need a good manager to get all that talent to play well as a team, instil team spirit. Fine. Although top managers generally cost a lot of money too so ultimately it does all come back to that. I agree with a lot of your post but it comes down to this: would Chelsea have won the CL without Abramovic? Would they have won their titles without Abramovic? Would City be champions without their billionaire backers? Would they balls.

To an extent clubs have always bought success of course but never so overtly as in the modern era and never by spending such obscene amounts of money.

That's not even the argument and only deals with the first paragraph. I agree they'd never be able to win it without Abramovich's millions because they wouldn't be in the competition full stop. But because they have managed to win it that way, it shouldn't distract us of the fact that Wenger has played in this competition for 15 seasons and never won it. Plus, that argument about top managers costing money is rubbish because Wenger is one of the higest paid managers in the league. Mourinho had no rep real European rep when he won with Porto, Pep was promoted from the reserve team, Rafa won with Liverpool in his first season, di Matteo is bloody caretaker manager. How much the manager earns is a mute point. When Wenger had the double winning sides and the Invincibles playing, he should have won the competition. He couldn't even win a UEFA Cup final.

[fakeyank]

A huge oversight in this thread. Chelsea were looking terrible some months back under AVB. The players wouldn't play for him and he couldn't control his players or get a performance out of them. Roberto di Matteo came in and turned it around without spending a penny. The same crop of players but they play differently. If money was the key factor AVB would have been celebrating with the Chelsea players on the pitch tonight.

I agree with Tipsychubbs and Ernesto on this one. Money has always been used to win titles and this is nothing new. My opinion, the billionaire owners have only raised the profile of mid table teams and bought them Champions League/ Elite club status. They're new money teams and have come up fast. Paid for admission but it doesn't guarantee a great performance. As seen yesterday. Two different managers, same team, different performance. Of course, Matteo would never be able to pull this off with West Brom and he's not a better manager than Wenger all of a sudden, you need a good team to win.

We have no business complaining about success being bought. For starters, we've beaten Chelsea and Man City this season but if we somehow managed to make it to the CL final, we'd lose. We've been in the Champions League for 15 years running and even at our best with the Invincble team we had a chance to get to the final and only had to beat Chelsea, a team we had already beaten 3 teams in previous meetings that season but we choked. We also choked against Barca in the final but that's no disgrace and we also fluffed our lines for a semi when threw it all away against Liverpool when Theo had that amazing assist. 15 years of competing and Wenger can't win it. It's not money. We compete in that competition every year and have seen our best players compete year after year but they choke. We've seen our best players choke in the UEFA Cup final even. Furthermore, we've lost the Carlng Cup final against Birmigham.

People can't keep pointing to money as an excuse. It covers over Wenger's weakness as a manager. It's a factor in football but it's not our problem. We compete, lead the league with only a couple of months to go then go on terrible runs to blow all our progress. Teams that should be moaning are the teams that have no chance of seeing Champions League football without a sugar daddy. We compete every year and choke against big teams, small teams the lot.

:gp:

You cant buy tactics and winning mentality.

[Letters]

@P_n_G I said I agreed with a lot of your post, and I do. But your first paragraph seemed to imply that Chelsea's win wasn't about the money. Yes. It. Was.

[Boss]

@P_n_G I said I agreed with a lot of your post, and I do. But your first paragraph seemed to imply that Chelsea's win wasn't about the money. Yes. It. Was.

Money has led to more competition, innit.

10 years ago we had 2 teams challenging for the league, now we have 5-6 that at the start of the season should be able to do so.

Not sure what people are complaining about, yesterday's game was pure entertainment and money may have gotten Chelsea into the position they were in but money had nothing to do with Messi or Robben missing penalties, Man U choking to drop 8 points in three games and so on. People spout garbage like wanting small teams like Stoke etc to challenge for the league and then when a small team like Man City are put into the position to do so they whine.

[Power n Glory]

@P_n_G I said I agreed with a lot of your post, and I do. But your first paragraph seemed to imply that Chelsea's win wasn't about the money. Yes. It. Was.

No it wasn't. For starters, your valuation of players is out of date and that team is an old team. Lampard, Essien, Malouda, Mikel, Drogba...they're not worth that now. Chelsea player against a club that have recently spend millions on building their team as well. Neuter, Boateng, Gomez, Robben, Ribery... they didn't come cheap.

Plus, again...this valuation comparison is bullshit because you wouldn't bring that argument upon when talking about our loses in the final against Birmingham or the Uefa Cup loss against Galatasaray.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Money has led to more competition, innit.

10 years ago we had 2 teams challenging for the league, now we have 5-6 that at the start of the season should be able to do so.

Not sure what people are complaining about, yesterday's game was pure entertainment and money may have gotten Chelsea into the position they were in but money had nothing to do with Messi or Robben missing penalties, Man U choking to drop 8 points in three games and so on. People spout garbage like wanting small teams like Stoke etc to challenge for the league and then when a small team like Man City are put into the position to do so they whine.

No it was not it was bloody shite.

[Joker]

Chelsea played garbage football for a lot of the Champions League and I don't think they deserve to win it at all, but we really need to get over Chelsea (and other club's) wealth. It makes us look extremely bitter and envious. It would be understandable if the people moaning wanted a sort of socialist system in football, with salary caps, redistribution of wealth towards struggling clubs, fan ownership etc, but I don't think that's what many of the people complaining about Chelsea, City etc want. The argument seems to be that they're not running "proper" businesses, with healthy wages:turnover ratio, paying off debt, healthy balance sheets, etc. The complaint seems to be that they've "distorted" the free market. Well, in that case it seems that the same people are satisfied with how our club has been run by the Old Etonians, who do "respect" the market and seem to think the only thing the club should care about is the return to shareholders, like any other private enterprise. If this is what you want football to be like, fine, but if given the choice between a Milton Friedman-inspired football world of perfect free market competition with shareholder value maximisation the only objective, or a world where Russian/Arab oligarch's upset the applecart, and focus on actually winning trophies rather than running a steady ship (because of the reflected glory and status that they get) I'd prefer the latter (although it's not ideal).

And people need to stop feeling so sorry for ourselves. Yes, there is inequality between us and City, but what about the inequality between us and most of the teams in the bottom half of the EPL, and going further down the Championship? They probably feel the same way about us and Spurs as we feel about City and Chelsea. We are a very rich club indeed with affluent owners (unfortunately they don't seem to care about the welfare of the club, only filling their own pockets with gold), and with the Champions League cash-cow have been able to increase the gap between us and other clubs. Moreover, we've taken advantage of rules that make it easy for us to bring in young talent from lower Premiership clubs and the Championship (like Ramsey and Oxlade-Chamberlain). So let's not act as if we don't have privileges in our favour as well.

Complaining about Sky is all well and good, but don't forget that our owners were part of the group that were encouraging the Premier League to break away from the football league. So if you want to complain about money taking over football, football losing it's soul etc, then again you have to point the finger at least partially at our owners who (along with clubs like Liverpool, Man Utd, Everton, etc) set the gravy train in motion.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Are you saying that the fair play rules wont change things? I think they will. Clubs cant make losses like before. And Man City are gonna make huge losses if they pay half their team £10million a year.

No, Ach is saying Yes we spent money to win the league mancs too, but it was not money that some rich fool gave to us it was money we earned through winning cups or through shirt sales etc. Compared to city and Chavs who with out the money would not be where they are today.


But why do we need to grasp it? Do you get brownie points for one instead of the other? In history, a title counts as a title, no matter where the money came from, unless it was proven to be illegal, or unless there were other illegal dealings going on such as the Serie A match-fixing scandal which stripped Juve of 2 titles and relegated them.

So far, however distasteful, both Man City and Chelsea's title wins have been just as legal as Man U's, whether one chairman had 800 million to spend or 80 million. I've long since got used to it and I'm not really that bothered by it. It is what it is, and while its legally allowed by FIFA/UEFA, whinging about it makes us look bitter and envious, even though we may not be.

Your still missing the point. As i said above Without the Money City and chavs would not have won these things its that simple. Chavs and City were not rich before their owners came and they did not have the money to win the league or CL its that simple.

Yes Chavs were lucky but with a shite team do you think they would have won that game. If City had the squad they had 5 years ago this season would they have won the league.


Yes UTD spent money to win the league i get that and you have too. They did it though money they earned not with money they got from some rich fool who don't give a shit about the club really.

[Joker]

Money has led to more competition, innit.

People spout garbage like wanting small teams like Stoke etc to challenge for the league and then when a small team like Man City are put into the position to do so they whine.

That's a good point, before the gap between us/Man Utd/Chelsea and City was enormous and there was no way they could challenge for the league. After the takeover, the gap has turned in favour of City but it is NOT insurmountable compared to the gap that existed in our favour before the takeover. I think some of the complaints about City are the typical complaints when a Monopolist/Oligopolist's position is upset by an new entrant into the "market". They complain about the young upstart, whinging about market distortions even though it is market distortions that have maintained the top clubs' privileged positions at the top of the tree.

[Joker]

No, Ach is saying Yes we spent money to win the league mancs too, but it was not money that some rich fool gave to us it was money we earned through winning cups or through shirt sales etc. Compared to city and Chavs who with out the money would not be where they are today.



Your still missing the point. As i said above Without the Money City and chavs would not have won these things its that simple. Chavs and City were not rich before their owners came and they did not have the money to win the league or CL its that simple.

Yes Chavs were lucky but with a shite team do you think they would have won that game. If City had the squad they had 5 years ago this season would they have won the league.


Yes UTD spent money to win the league i get that and you have too. They did it though money they earned not with money they got from some rich fool who don't give a shit about the club really.

Us and Utd still have rich owners which allow us (if we wanted) to spend much more relative to most clubs in the Premiership. You're acting as if us and Utd are run as workers cooperatives, while Chelsea and City are run by evil capitalist businessmen. The reality is that all our clubs are run by affluent businessmen, so we can't assume the moral high-ground.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Us and Utd still have rich owners which allow us (if we wanted) to spend much more relative to most clubs in the Premiership. You're acting as if us and Utd are run as workers cooperatives, while Chelsea and City are run by evil capitalist businessmen. The reality is that all our clubs are run by affluent businessmen, so we can't assume the moral high-ground.

Rubbish, We have only Recently got Rich Owners Same with the mancs and even before we got them we were able to win the league through what we earned, City and Chavs were not its that simple.

[Power n Glory]

Good points made.

I've heard people say the Spanish league is boring and uncompetitive because or the riches of Barca and Madrid, there is a massive gap between the quality there and most teams can only dream of winning the league. It would take a sugar daddy for them to be able to compete. And compete is the key word here not win.

Also, the smaller clubs in Spain that can't compete still manage to win Copa del Rey's or UEFA Cups. Look Atheltico Madrid, Sevilla and Valencia. We haven't been able to win anything in 7 years so money is no excuse.

[Coney]

Are you saying that the fair play rules wont change things? I think they will. Clubs cant make losses like before. And Man City are gonna make huge losses if they pay half their team £10million a year.

If - BIG IF - the fair play rules are used as intended and attempts to fudge or find loopholes are dealt with firmly, then yes, it will be great for clubs like ours. However, I will believe it when I see it. Having seen the wonderful 'caring about the sport' shit from FIFA and UEFA when it just remains as a few at the top lining their pockets - like Blatter and his followers - concentrating on irrelevancies instead of the important issues, I will only be convinced when teams running an insane deficit like Citeh really are banned from the CL. And would the FA have the balls to apply it to the PL? No chance.

It would be a nice dream - it is a nice dream - but I can't see it happening. For instance, since it is imminent, where is the warning from UEFA to Citeh that they will need to make changes in the next year to be ready? Or are they going to just chop them at the time the rule comes into place with no further warning. I doubt it.

[Joker]

We're complaining about football being boring because it's obvious who's going to win, but it's only been the first season that City have won the league, and at the end of the day it was on goal difference. If we had owners who cared about trophies and a more tactically astute manager, I think we could be challenging for the league, along with Man Utd, Chelsea, maybe Liverpool as well. The takeovers have increased competition in the Premier League, and that's got to be a good thing.

What do you think other teams were thinking from the the mid 90s until 2005, when it was only us or Utd winning the league? They probably felt football was becoming boring, with only two teams with a chance of winning the league.

[Cripps_orig]

What do you think other teams were thinking from the the mid 90s until 2005, when it was only us or Utd winning the league? They probably felt football was becoming boring, with only two teams with a chance of winning the league.Neither of us bought the league though. Everything was down to team building and how good the managers were

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What do you think other teams were thinking from the the mid 90s until 2005, when it was only us or Utd winning the league? They probably felt football was becoming boring, with only two teams with a chance of winning the league.

Yes because teams still don't think this now. I mean there is so much Chance for Villa And Everton and Barcodes and Fulham to go and win the league no competition at all.

Are fans of these clubs Jealous moaners too.

[Power n Glory]

Neither of us bought the league though. Everything was down to team building and how good the managers were

Wenger had to introduce foreign players to win the league.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger had to introduce foreign players to win the league.

Yes because Cantona, Kanchelskis were all English.

[Cripps_orig]

Wenger had to introduce foreign players to win the league.With money we as a club earned

[Coney]

We're complaining about football being boring because it's obvious who's going to win, but it's only been the first season that City have won the league, and at the end of the day it was on goal difference. If we had owners who cared about trophies and a more tactically astute manager, I think we could be challenging for the league, along with Man Utd, Chelsea, maybe Liverpool as well. The takeovers have increased competition in the Premier League, and that's got to be a good thing.

What do you think other teams were thinking from the the mid 90s until 2005, when it was only us or Utd winning the league? They probably felt football was becoming boring, with only two teams with a chance of winning the league.

Sure, but that was because the other teams were not up to it. Some of them could have competed had they chosen to make the effort. Clubs like Liverpool and Newcastle, for instance, have a massive fan base and should have been able to compete on the financial side at the time (before the sugar daddy shit started) - but they did not invest wisely in getting good managers who could last over time.

I have said before that football was better when I started watching in the early 1970s where there were half a dozen teams who, at the start of the season, could have felt they had a realistic chance of making a title challenge, so when you won it, there was a big sense of achievement. At any one time there might be a couple of teams that are the more likely candidates but they used to come and go more often. Before the PL started up, only Liverpool dominated for a long period but at lease that was not based on cash. It was based on having Shankly and then Paisley build up a team and a mentality over a long period.

A lot of the failing clubs who should have been competing in recent years might take a look at how often they change their manager and have to pretty well start again, then wonder why they never win anything.

[Joker]

Rubbish, We have only Recently got Rich Owners Same with the mancs and even before we got them we were able to win the league through what we earned, City and Chavs were not its that simple.

So you're saying the Bracewell-Smith family, the Hill-Wood family, Danny Fizman, Richard Carr etc were not rich individuals?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Sure, but that was because the other teams were not up to it. Some of them could have competed had they chosen to make the effort. Clubs like Liverpool and Newcastle, for instance, have a massive fan base and should have been able to compete on the financial side at the time (before the sugar daddy shit started) - but they did not invest wisely in getting good managers who could last over time.

I have said before that football was better when I started watching in the early 1970s where there were half a dozen teams who, at the start of the season, could have felt they had a realistic chance of making a title challenge, so when you won it, there was a big sense of achievement. At any one time there might be a couple of teams that are the more likely candidates but they used to come and go more often. Before the PL started up, only Liverpool dominated for a long period but at lease that was not based on cash. It was based on having Shankly and then Paisley build up a team and a mentality over a long period.

A lot of the failing clubs who should have been competing in recent years might take a look at how often they change their manager and have to pretty well start again, then wonder why they never win anything.

Yeah i think the majority of people in the country/world would feel the same way. Guessing those days there was no pussy footing around just men playing the game they love and enjoying it.

I started watching footie in the late 80s But even that was not as bad as it is today. I Just have Faith in the game or the twats that run the sport and until Blatter and Platini Step down this sport will always be a shambles tbh.

[Coney]

Wenger had to introduce foreign players to win the league.

PL teams have played with foreign players for years. When we won the double in 1971, we had Pat Rice, Frank McLintoch, George Graham and Eddie Kelly. Chavs were the first club to play a team of all foreigners. (Well, if you discount Cardiff in the 1930s who had a team of Welshmen).

Even Manu, with their record, had to buy a foreign manager and then bring in lots of foreigners. Ditto the big Liverpool period - Paisley build on what a scot had build, with a Welsh captain and welsh/scots to get his results.

[Coney]

So you're saying the Bracewell-Smith family, the Hill-Wood family, Danny Fizman, Richard Carr etc were not rich individuals?

Yes, but while they owned the club, they were not pumping their own money into it - they made it pay it's way by spending only what it earned.

[Joker]

Why is Russian/Arab petro money more morally offensive than the inherited wealth of the Eton elite who have owned the majority of our shares until recently?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

So you're saying the Bracewell-Smith family, the Hill-Wood family, Danny Fizman, Richard Carr etc were not rich individuals?

They were as rich as most people on Boards of most teams tbh. Im sure they were as rich as the people at West ham.

And these people were not our Owners they were on a board. Not 1 person called the shots or had overall control. They are not as Rich as Roman or the Guy at city Hence why they sold their shares.

[Cripps_orig]

Why is Russian/Arab petro money more morally offensive than the inherited wealth of the Eton elite who have owned the majority of our shares until recently?I dont recall the Eton elite spending £400m in a couple of seasons

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Why is Russian/Arab petro money more morally offensive than the inherited wealth of the Eton elite who have owned the majority of our shares until recently?

Lets just say these people did not get their money from being nice. The russian got his money from corruption and everyone in Russia will tell you that. Same for the Arab i guess Oil money but i doubt he worked hard to get that money tbh.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I dont recall the Eton elite spending £400m in a couple of seasons

Pretty much.

[Coney]

I dont recall the Eton elite spending £400m in a couple of seasons

Well, not on the Arsenal, anyway.

[Cripps_orig]

Well, not on the Arsenal, anyway.On prostitutes and drugs then?

Impressive

[Olivier's xmas twist]

On prostitutes and drugs then?

Impressive

Does PHW look like some who'd be saying:

"Id Wish these Hoes would back up off me"

[Cripps_orig]

Does PHW look like some who'd be saying:

"Id Wish these Hoes would back up off me"Never discount the old dudes. Biggest pervs around.

Just look at Coney. Old enough to be PHWs grandad and here he is perving on Pippas ass

[Coney]

Red blood still passes through my veins. Not necessarily everywhere, but it does flow. And to the important bits. Brain and dick. :good:

[Dennis Bendtner]

My first thoughts weren't about money yesterday. It was a flukey bunch of bus-parking ****s jamming their way to the big trophy. Reality is horrendous.

[Coney]

My first thoughts weren't about money yesterday. It was a flukey bunch of bus-parking ****s jamming their way to the big trophy. Reality is horrendous.

At the time of the match, my thoughts were just on making sure that my burger was grilled right at the house-warming barbie I was at. We just glanced at the telly now and again to see what the score was. This had nothing to do with hanging around outside where all the cleavage was.

[Power n Glory]

PL teams have played with foreign players for years. When we won the double in 1971, we had Pat Rice, Frank McLintoch, George Graham and Eddie Kelly. Chavs were the first club to play a team of all foreigners. (Well, if you discount Cardiff in the 1930s who had a team of Welshmen).

Even Manu, with their record, had to buy a foreign manager and then bring in lots of foreigners. Ditto the big Liverpool period - Paisley build on what a scot had build, with a Welsh captain and welsh/scots to get his results.

Of course it's nothing new. But it a took a team of foreign internationals for us to win the league and break Man Utd's strong hold. We haven't grown from within and developed players. It's a mute point because we're still able to compete with Chelsea and Man City on the pitch. It's not as if we get thrashed each time we meet them. We just can't compete with the transfers. Under Wenger, I doubt we'd even be in contention for half of the players Chelsea and City sign. He doesn't sign players that are under the spotlight and involved in bidding wars. He can accuse clubs of inflating the market but only a fool would sell Wenger a good player for peanuts. We've bought undervalued players and sold them on for massive profits. That's no secret and clubs have taken note. He can't take advantage of the market in that way anymore so as much as he'd like to accuse clubs like City and Chelsea of inflating prices a lot of it has to do with his reputation. Now he has to rely on development and skills and coaching.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

My first thoughts weren't about money yesterday. It was a flukey bunch of bus-parking ****s jamming their way to the big trophy. Reality is horrendous.

Same here. Chelsea Could have done better to win the thing thats why im not splaffing at their win.

[latewinner]

What really irks me is the fact that we always point to this mental fragility that we have. It's plain as day, it's clear for all to see. Why do we suffer from this? It's not like we're getting mugged (literally) or violated and struggle to leave the house. We're on a football pitch, FFS. We're meant to be spurred on by defeat.

Yesterday, Chelsea, after offering next to nothing all game, equalised in the 89th minute having gone behind in the 82nd minute. Remarkable. It got me thinking, we haven't done anything of the like since Sampdoria in 1995. Going 3-1 down with barely a minute left in extra time and staring into the wilderness. Schwarz steps up and scores a free-kick and we go on to win the tie on penalties. From despair to joy within the short space of 10 minutes.

Who were we playing under on this great night of European football? Stewart Houston as caretaker boss. Has a comeback like yesterday's, or at Sampdoria in '95 ever happened under Wenger? I honestly can't remember one. Meaningless EPL games come to mind (equalising at Sunderland in injury time a few years back having gone a goal down in the 89th min)

We seem to be incapable of anything 'special' now. We have our excuses at the ready. The last 3 times an English team has won the Champions League against foreign opposition, they've either scored a late winner/equaliser (or both!) or come back from a massive deficit in 90 minutes of play. I honestly don't think we can do that....:(

What a night that was.

[Cripps_orig]

Look on the brightside

Spuds are out of the CL and Barca didnt win the CL. The latter happening would have been much worse for football

That is the reality

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Look on the brightside

Spuds are out of the CL and Barca didnt win the CL. The latter happening would have been much worse for football

That is the reality

Meh its not the worst thing in the world to happen tbh. Least this means the old boys will be fecking off soon. I guess it also means Chavs to Spend another Billion in the summer.

[Coney]

I've heard people say the Spanish league is boring and uncompetitive because or the riches of Barca and Madrid, there is a massive gap between the quality there and most teams can only dream of winning the league.


Spain have provided the most champions, with thirteen wins from two clubs. Italy have produced twelve winners from three clubs and England have produced twelve winners from five clubs

Guess which 2 Spanish clubs? ;)

[Power n Glory]

Guess which 2 Spanish clubs? ;)

That's not up for dispute but the lower sides that can't compete with the league still win the Copa del Rey and UEFA Cup. Money is a factor but you can't use that excuse to coat over our 7 trophyless years. Wenger isn't a good tactician and web he first came here he was able to take advantage of the transfer market and win the league but he was never able to win the Champions League because he's poor at adapting to over teams and he didn't have an advantage on the player side. Now he's struggling because most clubs have invested in their scouting networks and it's no secret of who the next big star is in this age.

[latewinner]

The reality is we will never win the champions league with Wenger. We didn't with the two most talented teams in the 2000's, didn't make a impact at all ,so there is no chance with this team or any future team of Wenger's. As ernesto said its a mentality thing Wenger's teams aren't capable of taking the final step to greatness. I cant think of a great comeback either great sides usually have one united had plenty in 99, barcelona needed one in 09. In the biggest moments when it look lost they've never produced like chelsea have. Most of their luck they had was because of their belief do you think barcelona would miss all those chances against us nah they would bury most of them because Chelsea are a far more intimidating team to play against as well as basically much more organised. The table may say we're 3rd and their 6th but I still think they're a much better team than us.

Maybe Henry, bergkamp, pires etc were not as tough as drogba, lampard and co or scholes, rooney and others but I think its a combination of their mentalty and Wengers as well as his tactical and motivational ability.
We need change. Its been said before, but Chelsea winning the champions league (while wenger and team celebrated 3rd like it it was the first time ever) really hits home what a waste these years have been. Wenger is not going to change Chelsea winning the champions league wont bother him he'll excuse it to money he couldn't possibly compete but Tottenham could win it too and it would not bother him. When you see him agonizing on the touchline you think maybe he's had enough sees its not working. But then the next interview championing his time, listing all the excuses praising mental strength, crushing our hopes of a decent transfer comes as well his smug press conferences.
At the end of the day the man is working against us and is in it for himself and is a hypocrite. I don't think he loves the club or respects the fans that much. We have a board who are happy to do the bare mininum and charge the highest tickets in the world. The least we could have is a manger who fights to have the best available for his team