Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[IBK]

This occured to me after my debate with Falvs on the other thread.

There's been much (and some justified) criticism of Wenger, his methods, philosophy and motivation.

He's been accused of being stuck in his ways; unable to adapt and lacking ideas, and the feeling is that we're stagnating as a club and that our manager is stale.

But I wonder whether this is really the case? The tactical 'naivity' that we complain about; the focus on his team rather than the opposition; the stubborn adherence to his methods have always been his hallmarks - he hasn't changed. We talk about the rest of the league catching him up - and they have - but is this not more a case of other clubs making the most of the information and methods available than Wenger taking his eye off the ball.

I suppose that you could say that the reason we've fallen down the pecking order is nothing whatsoever to do with lack of ideas/motivation. Its the simple fact that more money=better players.

On the other hand - faced with a changing football landscape, we fans are suffering from shattered illusions; the humbling feeling of no longer being top dogs and the corrosive effect of transfer seasons made depressing because of want-away talent. And as fans, we are talking ourselves into a bleaker outlook that the situation merits.

Is it us that are getting stale rather than Wenger?

[Kano]

he has not done all at his disposal to end a drought which is having an effect on how long we can keep our best players.

ironically it took the end of last season where we confirmed third place to convince me we have seen the best of the great man.

things are stale and it is time to make the big step and try something new.

whether it improves or worsens things is worth finding out, rather than heading into another season expecting exactly the same pattern.

[Flavs]

One thing I have noticed that Wenger gets blamed/credited for things at the club I have never seen another manager criticised/credited with. It's truly astounding at times that he gets the blame/credit.

Stadium moves
Stadium sponsorship deals
Commercial enterprise
Marketing architecture
TV deals
Ticket prices
Being in charge of the board
Blocking Usmanov/Welcoming Kroenkeeeee
All club press releases
The colour of the seats in the stadium

and that's not to mention the tactics, purchases, wages, transfer fee's, kit colour, youth and recruitment policies and so on. He is either the busiest man on earth or many fans seem to be over doing it a little.

[Cripps_orig]

Add appointing his own boss in Gazidis to that list

[Grebbo]

No manager in the world could get the current Arsenal FC and it's business model to finish above the two Manchester clubs.

Finishing 3rd last season was an achievement.

It's important to remember that.

We'll have punched above our weight again if we finish 3rd this season seeing as Chelsea are spunking £100m this summer....again.

The only manager who'd give those ****s a run for their money is Brian Clough in his prime.

Wenger's good but he's not Clough.

Wenger :bow:

[Kano]

One thing I have noticed that Wenger gets blamed/credited for things at the club I have never seen another manager criticised/credited with. It's truly astounding at times that he gets the blame/credit.

Stadium moves
Stadium sponsorship deals
Commercial enterprise
Marketing architecture
TV deals
Ticket prices
Being in charge of the board
Blocking Usmanov/Welcoming Kroenkeeeee
All club press releases
The colour of the seats in the stadium

and that's not to mention the tactics, purchases, wages, transfer fee's, kit colour, youth and recruitment policies and so on. He is either the busiest man on earth or many fans seem to be over doing it a little.
it's easy to understand why, given the fact he openly discusses far more about the club than what happens on the pitch and with the players. he has a philosophy on how a club should operate and has without question been heavily involved with a lot of back room work, given the amount of leverage and respect given to him by the directors.

[Ronny M. Scanlon]

it took the end of last season where we confirmed third place to convince me we have seen the best of the great man.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Adding to what Terry said, one must note there is not one single thing in Flav's list about AFC that is going against AWs well publicised views about the way the world should spin. From the seat colours, to what's available in the canteen, to the bigger stadium (remember even Dein, the most powerful man in AFC's modern history couldn't get his way here), AW has gotten all the things he publicly expressed that a mere Fergie wouldn't even dream of uttering out loud.

The thing is we know so much about AWs opinions because he chooses to expresses so much to the world, so let's not pretend that a majority of these accusations are being fabricated; we know he hates Money City's model (which we are the exact opposite of), dislikes Chelsea's functional football (which we are the exact opposite off), professes a "belief" in a more egalitarian than meritocratic/competitive pay structure (the Denilsons must kiss his picture every night before they go to sleep), believes cup competitions barring the CL are pretty useless (now we fail to do well in any of them), believes the manager should be the all and all in the club footballingwise (always complains bitterly about any club who dares hire a TD), how unfair it is that goals don't equal points (we're always among topscorers), a managers success should be judged by far more "important" criteria than just mere results/ trophies.... and blah blah blah. Do people expect us to think it's a miracle that Arsenal FC in about a decade has not contravened any of his 1001 publicly expressed views?? AW is the only head of any public organisation that I know that has gotten everything from the organisation that he publicly asks for; the Pope, the Queen, Cameron, Assad and Simon Cowell must all be jealous.

It's like we all shared a dream happily together, one person took it over and now we're as powerless as anyone stuck in Elm street.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We need to be sincere when we have these sort of discussions, unless we'll keep repeating ourselves in 30 different topic titles. How we can ask if it's us that need to change and not AW is mind burgling, seeing as whether we puke/cry/stab/murder/rape/sing/ or whatever on this rollercoaster, it won't stop, until the ride has taken its course, then we can get off. This is AW's club/dream/vision/ride, you can jump off it in motion, but only then would you truly lose all rights to being called a fan.

[tpyo]

I agree with a lot of sentiment in this thread. The footballing world has made it difficult for Wenger and Arsenal's model to work well.

I think we can agree that in a world without the insane investment of clubs like citeh and chelski we'd all still be in love with Wenger so the question becomes how long football will last on this insane bender of unsustainable business models. Is it a bubble? After all, if the bubble pops then Arsenal are poised to clean up and begin a decade of dominance.

If it doesn't though then we'll almost always be a club hitting an average of 3rd/4th place.

[Power n Glory]

Teams are getting better and wiser. They know how to neutralise us but we still haven't quite worked out how to beat stubborn defensive teams.

There is little point in mentioning Chelsea and City because their success has very little to do our problems as a club. Wenger can't reproduce that championship winning form and it's there in the stats and you can see it as the season unfolds where we constantly buckle when top of the table.

To contend for the title and have a true chance of winning, you've got to be able to pick up between 80 - 90 points. Our last league title, we picked up 90 points. Title before that 87 points.

Here are our points break down over the past four seasons.

2011-12
70 points

2010 - 2011
68 points

2009 - 2010
75 points

2008 - 2009
72 points

We're not even close to reproducing Championship winning form. City won the league with 89 points last season, Man U 80 points, before that Chelsea with 86 points....we have dropped a level and there is no point in focussing on Chelsea and City. It's not as if they are getting an outrageous amount of points each season and teams have got to get 90 - 100 points to win the league like what's now happening in La Liga. Barca and Real are having to hit 100 points in the high 90s to win the league. 4/5 years ago, the numbers were similar to the Prem, 85 points could win you the league but that isn't the case any more. Barca and Real are two super teams and have pushed the threshold even higher and it's impossible for other teams to reach that. If that were happening over here with City, Chelsea and Man United, then I'd agree and say it's impossible for us to compete with that.

In Wenger's first season, he managed to win the league with 79 points, we can't even hit that number any more. The one season where we've hit over 80 points was the Eduardo leg break season and we had 83 points. We dropped some silly points and Man U won the league with 87 points. We need to focus on our own game because we're not even close to producing what we used to as a team. There is an argument to suggest that the lower teams are getting better, but I just think they've gotten better at playing against us because none of the other teams struggle as badly as we do and there hasn't been a single English team that has won the UEFA Europa Cup in recent history.

We're not producing great sides any more and it's combination of Wenger being stubborn, tactically weak, our youth and transfer policy and teams knowing what tactics to play against us. But the focus has to come away from teams like City and Chelsea. They're not the issue.

[AKBapologist]

That's a pretty dumb way of looking at it. Especially when you look at the start we had and the causes to it.

We were lucky to finish with 70pts tbh.

sent from a fone

[Joker]

You can't just discount the start of the season, especially as the causes were self inflicted (poor planning from Wenger/the board). And anyway, that is just last season, what about all the others where we've failed to reach the 80+ mark?

[Power n Glory]

That's a pretty dumb way of looking at it. Especially when you look at the start we had and the causes to it.

We were lucky to finish with 70pts tbh.

sent from a fone

Why in the world would you think I'm only talking one season? Also, the fact that we had a bad start to the season doesn't make a difference. The overall point is, we're failing to reproduce championship form and it has very little to do with Chelsea or City's spending policy.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why in the world would you think I'm only talking one season? Also, the fact that we had a bad start to the season doesn't make a difference. The overall point is, we're failing to reproduce championship form and it has very little to do with Chelsea or City's spending policy.

I don't agree with that - certainly not in the case of City. Nearly half our fucking first team is there and our star striker seems to want to be there or somewjere like it as well.

[Power n Glory]

If it's not City or Chelsea, it would be the biggest Spanish clubs in Barca and Real. Rich clubs have always been a problem for us and we've never been able to compete with the wages other clubs offer. Players are leaving even quicker now because of our policies and that's partly due to the Emirates move.

[Ollie the Optimist]

no its not us that have stale nor the manger. in the old days you used to sign for a club to fight hard for success and work hard, nowadays there is a easy way to do that, you jsut rock up, earn millions and win a billion trophies without doing much. if players want an easy life then we are fucked and actually so is football

[Cripps_orig]

Football has changed

Wenger isnt able to and is being left behind and is taking Arsenal with him

So id say Wenger

[Xhaka Can’t]

If it's not City or Chelsea, it would be the biggest Spanish clubs in Barca and Real. Rich clubs have always been a problem for us and we've never been able to compete with the wages other clubs offer. Players are leaving even quicker now because of our policies and that's partly due to the Emirates move.

I disagree with the statement that we can't compete with those wages. We fricken well can. We could have a spine of 3-4 superstars on pretty monstrous wages if we weren't paying ridiculous amounts to the likes of Bendtner, Denilson, et al - and the are ridiculous and unearned amounts which is why no one else in the entire world will take them off our hands with the contracts they are on.

Our problem is not our wage bill, it is how the wages within it are distibuted amongst the team.

[Mr. Lahey]

^^ yes this is very true. whoever signed these players to those ridiculous contracts should be fired on the spot. millions of pounds have been wasted on garbage over the years and we arent talking about 1 or 2 contracts we can come up with a laundry list of shite that the club has spent soo much money on. there is only one man who choses to sign these players and he needs to be held accountable for this.

[Xhaka Can’t]

^^ yes this is very true. whoever signed these players to those ridiculous contracts should be fired on the spot. millions of pounds have been wasted on garbage over the years and we arent talking about 1 or 2 contracts we can come up with a laundry list of shite that the club has spent soo much money on. there is only one man who choses to sign these players and he needs to be held accountable for this.

Thought you'd be at BMO Field right now.

edit: Mind you, that would be pointless seeing as it is at the Rogers Center.

[Mr. Lahey]

the arsenal fan in me does not allow me to go see liverpool even though we dont get too many high profile teams over here buddy. besides 11$ for a pint is criminal. my 3$ beer from my couch tastes so much better. i figured since Kronke came aboard we would see Arsenal around these parts. hopefully after we raid the far east of all the $$$ they can come here to rinse and repeat.

[Power n Glory]

I disagree with the statement that we can't compete with those wages. We fricken well can. We could have a spine of 3-4 superstars on pretty monstrous wages if we weren't paying ridiculous amounts to the likes of Bendtner, Denilson, et al - and the are ridiculous and unearned amounts which is why no one else in the entire world will take them off our hands with the contracts they are on.

Our problem is not our wage bill, it is how the wages within it are distibuted amongst the team.

Exactly and that's a result of our wage policy and structure. It has nothing to do with what Chelsea and City are doing and goes back to my original point. We've had players complaining about wages since the Vieira days, before these new money clubs and it's self imposed because we have a wage structure. We're seeing a mismanagement of funds at our club and it's all too easy to blame our drought on outside influences. We've got to look closer to home.

[tpyo]

Wait, sorry? We can compete with £190K per week? Are you serious?

It's all relative. You pay one star that much, the other stars want that much. We pay RVP 190K p.w. then what does Wilshere deserve in a year or two? Every star player we sign or becomes one from then on will demand that much. Nor can you have good morale at a club where a left back or even someone on the bench earns like a tenth of the star player. The wage structure exists primarily to ensure that wages are relative and not too biased in a particular direction. Shonky payment structures result in dressing room unrest.

[Globalgunner]

Wait, sorry? We can compete with £190K per week? Are you serious?

It's all relative. You pay one star that much, the other stars want that much. We pay RVP 190K p.w. then what does Wilshere deserve in a year or two? Every star player we sign or becomes one from then on will demand that much. Nor can you have good morale at a club where a left back or even someone on the bench earns like a tenth of the star player. The wage structure exists primarily to ensure that wages are relative and not too biased in a particular direction. Shonky payment structures result in dressing room unrest.

FAIL. This egalitarian structure you are proposing does nor exist in any other walk of life. Messi probably earns twice what Iniesta does at Barca, at RM the only player who earns close to what CR9 does is propably Cassilas. If you earned 80% of what your company MD does and he works twice as hard as you carrying home files to pore over each night, would YOU want to be the MD?. We have clearly seen that money motivates players, if you want to earn the same as RVP, then produce like RVP. What we have instead is Djourou on 50k and Denilson on the same and Rvp on 75k. That does not make for harmony , that causes stagnation, which is what we see at Arsenal. players better than denilson Djourou, Bendtner et al are earning 25k pw in other Prem clubs and thanking their bloody stars for it.

This is all part of the Wenger calamity. He wants to do things differently just for its own sake, and even when we all see that it doesnt work. He stubbornly refuses to change it. This is what Gazidis was supposedly supposed to change but instead he just does what Wenger wants.. Wilshire is not a star, yet he has done nothing to merit such accolades and he is just starting out in the game and is not a mercurial talent like Messi, Rooney or Ronaldo. He should be on 25k pw. If you pay him 75kpw now at 20 yrs what will he be on by the time he is 27 and maybe still has not progressed as a player like the aforementioned Djopoo and denilshyte.

[Power n Glory]

FAIL. This egalitarian structure you are proposing does nor exist in any other walk of life. Messi probably earns twice what Iniesta does at Barca, at RM the only player who earns close to what CR9 does is propably Cassilas. If you earned 80% of what your company MD does and he works twice as hard as you carrying home files to pore over each night, would YOU want to be the MD?. We have clearly seen that money motivates players, if you want to earn the same as RVP, then produce like RVP. What we have instead is Djourou on 50k and Denilson on the same and Rvp on 75k. That does not make for harmony , that causes stagnation, which is what we see at Arsenal. players better than denilson Djourou, Bendtner et al are earning 25k pw in other Prem clubs and thanking their bloody stars for it.

This is all part of the Wenger calamity. He wants to do things differently just for its own sake, and even when we all see that it doesnt work. He stubbornly refuses to change it. This is what Gazidis was supposedly supposed to change but instead he just does what Wenger wants.. Wilshire is not a star, yet he has done nothing to merit such accolades and he is just starting out in the game and is not a mercurial talent like Messi, Rooney or Ronaldo. He should be on 25k pw. If you pay him 75kpw now at 20 yrs what will he be on by the time he is 27 and maybe still has not progressed as a player like the aforementioned Djopoo and denilshyte.

And that's why this pay structure can't last and we will have to change things soon.

[Cripps_orig]

He wont be here when hes 27 tbh

He'll either be too shit cos he never fully recovered from his death and be playing for a Hull City, Reading or a team of that calibre or he will have come back and be awesome and be at City or Barca

Either way he wont be here

[Power n Glory]

The payment structure makes it almost impossible for young players to stay with us until that age. Even if they want to stay with us on the playing side, they won't be satisfied with their wages. It's like a glass ceiling with their earnings. The max we'll pay is around £130k right now. It can't stay that way and I suspect when we've paid down the debt and increased our revenue soon the average earnings will have to go up too. That's if we plan on revising the wage structure and making it so players can earn more. If we're talking about fairness and all, wouldn't that mean we'd have a situation where we'd have very average players earning £70k - £80k in the near future? This model is a burden and it's not smart at all.

[Özim]

Wait, sorry? We can compete with £190K per week? Are you serious?

It's all relative. You pay one star that much, the other stars want that much. We pay RVP 190K p.w. then what does Wilshere deserve in a year or two? Every star player we sign or becomes one from then on will demand that much. Nor can you have good morale at a club where a left back or even someone on the bench earns like a tenth of the star player. The wage structure exists primarily to ensure that wages are relative and not too biased in a particular direction. Shonky payment structures result in dressing room unrest.
You sound like Arsene Wenger.

Top players have never and will never get paid the same or even a little more than the more ordinary players and to suggest they should because the lesser players will be disatisfied is ludicrous.

If you're more talented and offer more you'll get paid more end of, the way we structure our salaries is a joke frankly, kids on megabucks from a young age when they've done nothing to deserve it, ordinary players earning 50-70k when they offer next to nothing....this is a total waste of resources and the reason our wage bill is out of control.

We attract lots of kids and the reason is we're happy to overpay them, noone else will offer those wages at their age...we're the Man City of youth football in a sense. What we should be doing is offering a reasonable wage and then letting the player decide if he wants to come and spending the money we save on buying and paying top players.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Wenger is beyond stale @ this point, he should do the honourable thing and pen his resignation.

If this clueless old bat had any semblance of a conscience, he'd never be able to sleep @ nights knowing he's one of the highest paid managers around (higher than SAF) and has not had a single success for the last 6 or 7 seasons.

Stacking up the team over-paid dross, which we can never be rid of and then unable to keep those worth keeping is more than an indictment on his stewardship.

Personally, I lost whatever little confidence I had in him when he made that Chamakh (or was it Arshavin? Doesn't make a difference really) substitution for Ox-Chamberlain last season. And from the look on RvP's face then, I can tell that's when he really made up his mind that he's leaving at the end of the season.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Wenger is beyond stale @ this point, he should do the honourable thing and pen his resignation.

If this clueless old bat had any semblance of a conscience, he'd never be able to sleep @ nights knowing he's one of the highest paid managers around (higher than SAF) and has not had a single success for the last 6 or 7 seasons.

Stacking up the team over-paid dross, which we can never be rid of and then unable to keep those worth keeping is more than an indictment on his stewardship.

Personally, I lost whatever little confidence I had in him when he made that Chamakh (or was it Arshavin? Doesn't make a difference really) substitution for Ox-Chamberlain last season. And from the look on RvP's face then, I can tell that's when he really made up his mind that he's leaving at the end of the season.

:haha: it's funny because he posted it!

[Özil's Panoramic View]

:haha: it's funny because he posted it!

:haha: odd enough, your mum also finds what I say funny

[fakeyank]

:haha: odd enough, your mum also finds what I say funny

:popcorn:

[GP]

:haha: odd enough, your mum also finds what I say funny

Everyone finds what you say funny.

Because you're mentally retarded.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Everyone finds what you say funny.

Because you're mentally retarded.

Really now, is that your best line? You and the rest of Wenger cock suckers have no place trying to label anyone as mentally retarded sir. :haha:

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think Wenget has done himself any favours but the landscape of football has certainly changed and I'd say it's the infrastructure of the sport itself that has gone stale.

[GP]

Herp derp herp derp herp derp herp derrrrrp:haha:

I guess

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I guess

You see, I noticed immediately after I joined this forum, just how most of you Wenger apologists try to patronize and berate people who know and are not afraid to say that Wenger needs to go.

Please note that your pathetic attempts at being condescending has zero effect on me sir.

Now, with that said, please f*** off. :fingers:

[GP]

You see, I noticed immediately after I joined this forum, just how most of you Wenger apologists try to patronize and berate people who know and are not afraid to say that Wenger needs to go.

Please note that your pathetic attempts at being condescending has zero effect on me sir.

Now, with that said, please f*** off. :fingers:

The problem is, your posts, much like Fakeyank's, don't make any sense. When you start making up shit or using hyperbole, it completely undermines anything you're trying to say.
So if you feel you're being patronised, it's not because you think Wenger should go, it's because you're a fucking idiot.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

The problem is, your posts, much like Fakeyank's, don't make any sense. When you start making up shit or using hyperbole, it completely undermines anything you're trying to say.
So if you feel you're being patronised, it's not because you think Wenger should go, it's because you're a fucking idiot.

:haha: What exactly have I made up? You are just an arrogant piece of shit who can't tolerate views that are not in line with yours.

Now once again, please fuck off sir.

[LDG]

Lol

[Master Splinter]

:haha:

The Internet :bow:.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is, your posts, much like Fakeyank's, don't make any sense. When you start making up shit or using hyperbole, it completely undermines anything you're trying to say.
So if you feel you're being patronised, it's not because you think Wenger should go, it's because you're a fucking idiot.

You're a funny dude. When was the last time you've actually tried debating a point without sarcasm, shit stirring, name calling or whatever else. Instead of attacking the point and trying to have a decent debate, you attack and insult the poster.
You can't be taken seriously either.

[GP]

You're a funny dude.

Thanks, that's nice of you to say.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Really now, is that your best line? You and the rest Wenger cock suckers have no place trying to label anyone as mentally retarded sir. :haha:

Really? Coming from someone who thinks a 'your mom' line is funny?

[Power n Glory]

You bastards keep hijacking good threads. Piss off if you can't play nicely!

[gunnerrrrr]

This occured to me after my debate with Falvs on the other thread.

There's been much (and some justified) criticism of Wenger, his methods, philosophy and motivation.

He's been accused of being stuck in his ways; unable to adapt and lacking ideas, and the feeling is that we're stagnating as a club and that our manager is stale.

But I wonder whether this is really the case? The tactical 'naivity' that we complain about; the focus on his team rather than the opposition; the stubborn adherence to his methods have always been his hallmarks - he hasn't changed. We talk about the rest of the league catching him up - and they have - but is this not more a case of other clubs making the most of the information and methods available than Wenger taking his eye off the ball.

I suppose that you could say that the reason we've fallen down the pecking order is nothing whatsoever to do with lack of ideas/motivation. Its the simple fact that more money=better players.

On the other hand - faced with a changing football landscape, we fans are suffering from shattered illusions; the humbling feeling of no longer being top dogs and the corrosive effect of transfer seasons made depressing because of want-away talent. And as fans, we are talking ourselves into a bleaker outlook that the situation merits.

Is it us that are getting stale rather than Wenger?

0 Trophies.
For those of us that actually attend games, we pay the most in the whole premiership. This alone is a joke.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why is 0 trophies the issue for you. I attend the matches and really, on match day, my biggest priority is to see a good fricken game for my 35-70 quid.

[Globalgunner]

Because 0 trophies IS an issue and is the cusp of this thread. There are a bunch of zealots like you on this forum who seem to think it is their sworn duty to attack anyone who criticises wenger with demented fury. Can you hear yourself no trophies, no problem. If you are happy Be happy, i did not realise this forum was intended only to appeal to the IWWT (In Wenger We trust) acolytes. If so you should change the furum name to Wengerbots only. so anyone with a different persusasion can give it a bye.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Because 0 trophies IS an issue and is the cusp of this thread. There are a bunch of zealots like you on this forum who seem to think it is their sworn duty to attack anyone who criticises wenger with demented fury. Can you hear yourself no trophies, no problem. If you are happy Be happy, i did not realise this forum was intended only to appeal to the IWWT (In Wenger We trust) acolytes. If so you should change the furum name to Wengerbots only. so anyone with a different persusasion can give it a bye.

I want him replaced - have stated so since August 2010 - because his time has passed - so get it right.

Not calling Wenger every name under the sun and cursing him as the worst thing ever to have happened to the Club equates to being a zealot. Look at the post I quoted, see my response, then look elsewhere in the thread for the demented fury.

My point is in response to a matchgoer and his perspective - I'm a matchgoer as well and on the day of the match, my primary concern is that I enjoy the game I've just forked out £35-£70 for. Yeah. Real demented fury that.

[Globalgunner]

If you do not agree with the criticism of Wenger, then why do you have to attcak anyone who criticises him. Is Wenger your dad? or are you the internet ethics police. Do you similarly defend anyone who abuses the Prime minister, or is it only Wengers honour you care about.

[Joker]

There are a few posters around who go around doing nothing but attack and castigate posters who make a point vaguely critical of Wenger. It's these people who hijack threads by posting irrelevant, sarcastic BS to try and belittle and misrepresent someone's viewpoint (for example, there's one poster who keeps trying to make it seem as if Wenger not drinking with other managers is used as a stick to beat him with, even though hardly any posters actually do that).

I don't think GB is one of them, but there are others who contribute very little to Arsenal debate except ganging up on those with a contrary viewpoint.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If you do not agree with the criticism of Wenger, then why do you have to attcak anyone who criticises him. Is Wenger your dad? or are you the internet ethics police. Do you similarly defend anyone who abuses the Prime minister, or is it only Wengers honour you care about.

Wrong, and demented.

[Xhaka Can’t]

There are a few posters around who go around doing nothing but attack and castigate posters who make a point vaguely critical of Wenger. It's these people who hijack threads by posting irrelevant, sarcastic BS to try and belittle and misrepresent someone's viewpoint (for example, there's one poster who keeps trying to make it seem as if Wenger not drinking with other managers is used as a stick to beat him with, even though hardly any posters actually do that).

I don't think GB is one of them, but there are others who contribute very little to Arsenal debate except ganging up on those with a contrary viewpoint.

The bulk of people here these days are critical - and rightly so. The tipping point for me, was not the fact that we hadn't won trophies or the fact that we can't outspend Clubs run as penile extensions, but at that point it became crystal clear that we were never going to make best use of the Club's resources in order to maximise our chances of winning trophies. I don't care if our maximum probability of winning a trophy is 5% - that is out of our hands. But when we don't even take the necessary steps utilising our resources, that I cannot accept.

Wenger is the poster boy for the approach we are adopting, maybe it is not entiely down to him and maybe things won't get better because this is the approach that the Board want, but by fuck I've had enough of it and I want change.

[Globalgunner]

Same as always. You can never counter an argument with an argument . All you and your ilk do is issue pithy snide crap that only show your immaturity. IF you agree with the poster but dont like his style, say so. Seems you just attack posters to make yourself feel like you are relevant. You say you want Wenger out but no trophies, no problem. Can you see the disconnect?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Same as always. You can never counter an argument with an argument . All you and your ilk do is issue pithy snide crap that only show your immaturity. IF you agree with the poster but dont like his style, say so. Seems you just attack posters to make yourself feel like you are relevant. You say you want Wenger out but no trophies, no problem. Can you see the disconnect?

What argument did you make worth discussing. Should we discuss whether he is my Dad? It was wrong and it sounded demented.

The bit about trophies is covered in my demented fury at post 54.

[Globalgunner]

My people have a sying that if you are caught arguing in public with a madman. Onlookers will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Good night.

[Xhaka Can’t]

My people have a sying that if you are caught arguing in public with a madman. Onlookers will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Good night.

You must hear that a lot.

[Ollie the Optimist]

0 Trophies.
For those of us that actually attend games, we pay the most in the whole premiership. This alone is a joke.


with season tickets, our game price per season ticket is not actually the most expensive. for all the games added into the ticket, spurs have a higher price per game for a season ticket

[Power n Glory]

My people have a sying that if you are caught arguing in public with a madman. Onlookers will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Good night.

:lol:

I was thinking of a similar saying. One of Jay Z's lines. But it is true.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:lol:

I was thinking of a similar saying. One of Jay Z's lines. But it is true.

It seems you don't mind the little digs afterall. :lol:

[Power n Glory]

It seems you don't mind the little digs afterall. :lol:

It's not a dig, just funny that he mentions a similar saying I was thinking of. There is no point in getting in responding to certain posters anymore if they can't contribute more than the standard smiley, insult and rather than tackle the point you've made, they go at you. It's a wise saying.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I'm not angry. :lol: Just sayin.

Anyway, what about post 54 - any thoughts on that?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

You're a funny dude. When was the last time you've actually tried debating a point without sarcasm, shit stirring, name calling or whatever else. Instead of attacking the point and trying to have a decent debate, you attack and insult the poster.
You can't be taken seriously either.
:gp:

In a dark dingy cave somewhere, a blushing Pullis wipes the tears of pride of his Ipad :)

[Power n Glory]

I'm not angry. :lol: Just sayin.

Anyway, what about post 54 - any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I know your not one of those guys. In most cases we can a good debate agreeing or disagreeing on whatever the issue is.

Regarding post 54, yeah, I agree with that and it's what frustrates me the most about our club. That's I'm tired of looking at what other clubs are doing because it's clear that we're really not pushing the boat out to chane things at our club. We're already seeing a repeat of last summer. I'm not even that pissed off about it. Jut fed up. I expect shit like this from our club now.

[cricketsi]

Same as always. You can never counter an argument with an argument . All you and your ilk do is issue pithy snide crap that only show your immaturity. IF you agree with the poster but dont like his style, say so. Seems you just attack posters to make yourself feel like you are relevant. You say you want Wenger out but no trophies, no problem. Can you see the disconnect?

Oops, you appear to have lost the plot in your feuding with GB here. From what I read he was making good and sensible points, not attacking other posters, which ironically could not be said of your contribution. I can understand the sentiment that in attending any single given game I want to primarily see a good match and enjoy that day out for my money. Yes, we all want to win trophies as well, but as that cannot be guaranteed, if it is the only criteria by which you define your satisfaction in attending matches you are likely to be dissatisfied. This is not contradictory to wanting the club and manager to do more to improve our chances of competing more successfully for trophies.

[cricketsi]

There are a few posters around who go around doing nothing but attack and castigate posters who make a point vaguely critical of Wenger. It's these people who hijack threads by posting irrelevant, sarcastic BS to try and belittle and misrepresent someone's viewpoint (for example, there's one poster who keeps trying to make it seem as if Wenger not drinking with other managers is used as a stick to beat him with, even though hardly any posters actually do that).

I don't think GB is one of them, but there are others who contribute very little to Arsenal debate except ganging up on those with a contrary viewpoint.

Just as there may be there are also posters who go around constantly making this point and portraying themselves as the oppressed enlightened minority. It also works the other way round and some posters get rounded on and criticised if they say anything in defence of Wenger in some threads. It's all tit for tat and trying to claim moral high ground from it is probably laughable.

It's probably a sign that it is indeed GW that is stale.

[IBK]

OK so the consensus appears to be that Wenger has gone stale for the following reasons.

1. No silverware for 7 years.

As someone has observed, if we'd won a couple of league titles in the interim, we'd be blissfully happy with Wenger. But is our lack of silverware really because AW has gone stale - or is it really because he's been hampered by the stadium project while confronted by the almost unlimited resources of other clubs?

I'd agree that had we shown more committment to the FA/Carling Cups we might have something to show for it. But Wenger would say that his principal focus is finishing high enough up the league to get CL football. Do people really value cup silverware above Tues/Weds night football?

2. Failing to use his available resources wisely.

Again, I'd agree that we seem to pay too much money to under-performing players - while our inability to pay our best players more creates a continual talent drain. AW appears to place too much faith in certain players who don't reward it.

But on analysis is this going stale? My difficulty with this over-rewarding criticism is that noone - least of all Wenger - will pay more than they have to for players - either in transfer fees or in wages. The reason why Bendtner; Diaby; Denilson; Vela; Ramsey are paid what they are paid is that there was demand for them when they signed. You might even argue that because we've slipped from the top, we need to make it more attractive for players to join our club.

Wenger's talent has always been on the developmental side. Is it fair to criticise him for choosing to continue with this - especially at a time when its become simply impossible to compete using the alternative model?

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

[Flavs]

given the amount of leverage and respect given to him by the directors.

Yeah it's funny how 3 premiership titles, 4 FA cups and the greatest team this country has seen in recent times will do that

[Flavs]

Our problem is not our wage bill, it is how the wages within it are distibuted amongst the team.

Kind off, the problem is that we adopted this business model of buying in promising kids on non-poachable monies the idea then being they would win us stuff or we could sell them for silly monies like Fabregas, Anelka and so on.

This hasn't worked and we have now ended up with some utter pap being made big money and no-one is willing to buy them because ...they are on big wages. Well Jo whaddayouknow.

Not really wanting to defend Wenger but i would point out that at 17/18 its really hard to gauge who between Denilson and Song was going to be the better star is going to be. Likewise Ade and Bendtner.

Sadly we cant have it both ways. If it was me? I would give them all free transfers just to shift them off the wage bill.

[IBK]

Kind off, the problem is that we adopted this business model of buying in promising kids on non-poachable monies the idea then being they would win us stuff or we could sell them for silly monies like Fabregas, Anelka and so on.

This hasn't worked and we have now ended up with some utter pap being made big money and no-one is willing to buy them because ...they are on big wages. Well Jo whaddayouknow.

Not really wanting to defend Wenger but i would point out that at 17/18 its really hard to gauge who between Denilson and Song was going to be the better star is going to be. Likewise Ade and Bendtner.

Sadly we cant have it both ways. If it was me? I would give them all free transfers just to shift them off the wage bill.

:gp: Insightful porst.

[Kano]

Yeah it's funny how 3 premiership titles, 4 FA cups and the greatest team this country has seen in recent times will do that

well of course but it doesn't distract from the point does it?

don't get my point misconstrued as some sort of veiled attack on wenger. you suggested he is associated with far more aspects of the club than anyone else and that is because of the respect afforded to him and his strong ideas on how to run a club.

[Kano]

OK so the consensus appears to be that Wenger has gone stale for the following reasons.

1. No silverware for 7 years.

As someone has observed, if we'd won a couple of league titles in the interim, we'd be blissfully happy with Wenger. But is our lack of silverware really because AW has gone stale - or is it really because he's been hampered by the stadium project while confronted by the almost unlimited resources of other clubs?

I'd agree that had we shown more committment to the FA/Carling Cups we might have something to show for it. But Wenger would say that his principal focus is finishing high enough up the league to get CL football. Do people really value cup silverware above Tues/Weds night football?

2. Failing to use his available resources wisely.

Again, I'd agree that we seem to pay too much money to under-performing players - while our inability to pay our best players more creates a continual talent drain. AW appears to place too much faith in certain players who don't reward it.

But on analysis is this going stale? My difficulty with this over-rewarding criticism is that noone - least of all Wenger - will pay more than they have to for players - either in transfer fees or in wages. The reason why Bendtner; Diaby; Denilson; Vela; Ramsey are paid what they are paid is that there was demand for them when they signed. You might even argue that because we've slipped from the top, we need to make it more attractive for players to join our club.

Wenger's talent has always been on the developmental side. Is it fair to criticise him for choosing to continue with this - especially at a time when its become simply impossible to compete using the alternative model?

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?
And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

It indicates a new buying approach but reinvigorating yourself and shaking off the cobwebs takes more than one change in direction. The most telling factor is how the team perform and whether or not there is a marked changed in how the team react to his leadership on the field – and sadly, once again last season, the same old limp ending oh so nearly cost us dearly.

[Flavs]

well of course but it doesn't distract from the point does it?

don't get my point misconstrued as some sort of veiled attack on wenger. you suggested he is associated with far more aspects of the club than anyone else and that is because of the respect afforded to him and his strong ideas on how to run a club.

It wasnt so much a reference to yourself my friend as to the muppets who think Wenger has never done fuck all and is too blame for all the issues at the club.

He is overly involved of course but that's the boards call and is based upon how successful he has been, people use this as a stick to beat him with but contrary to popular belief our board aren't morons they see a golden ticket when they get one. It's just easier to continue the way we are than rip it up and start again now.

[IBK]

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

It indicates a new buying approach but reinvigorating yourself and shaking off the cobwebs takes more than one change in direction. The most telling factor is how the team perform and whether or not there is a marked changed in how the team react to his leadership on the field – and sadly, once again last season, the same old limp ending oh so nearly cost us dearly.

Not sure I'd agree with you there. I think there was a marked change in attitude/resiliance last season. After our horrendous start, we did well to haul ourselves back into the mix - and we showed more heart and togetherness as a team.

Liverpool toiled, and Spurs had an Arsenal-like implosion. We were different.

Now there's no doubt that mediocrity seems to be tolerated by our manager more than others, and that in the past, the team has lacked the mental strength to perform consistently. But I wonder whether both these attributes are down to over-committment to developmental players rather than some fundamental training flaw emanating from the manager. After all, going a whole season unbeaten takes mental strength and fortitude, and we had the same manager then.

[Flavs]

I always think we struggle as we don't really have a comparable team in the prem. Not frame of reference always means its hard to draw conclusions.

[Kano]

Not sure I'd agree with you there. I think there was a marked change in attitude/resiliance last season. After our horrendous start, we did well to haul ourselves back into the mix - and we showed more heart and togetherness as a team.

Liverpool toiled, and Spurs had an Arsenal-like implosion. We were different.

Now there's no doubt that mediocrity seems to be tolerated by our manager more than others, and that in the past, the team has lacked the mental strength to perform consistently. But I wonder whether both these attributes are down to over-committment to developmental players rather than some fundamental training flaw emanating from the manager. After all, going a whole season unbeaten takes mental strength and fortitude, and we had the same manager then.

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

[IBK]

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

Again, I think that is an overly critical approach.

Its not fair to imply that the Invincibles' season was down to the individual players rather than AW, but that he's responsible for the team's demise since. Yes, there was more experience and leadership within the Invincibles team, but for the past few years, I think the manager has faced a Catch 22 situation. He has been forced, first through the stadium project and then through the change of footballing landscape, to try to compete by trying a developmental approach - and has tried to build a team using exceptional young talent/homegrown players rather than good, but unexceptional seasoned players. Exceptional experience is now out of our financial league.

The problem with young talent - particularly to the degree that AW has relied upon it - is that it lacks the experience and often the resiliance to compete with those teams who can afford the best tried and tested players. We can blame Wenger for risking too much on youth, for sure - but IMO its over-simplifying it to criticise him for the inevitable issues that come with inexperience - as though there was an obvious alternative way for him to achieve success. Yes, he could have bought more Arteta or Benayoun-type players - but this level of player is not sufficient to compete with Citeh and the Chavs. The Koscielny's; Oxlade's; Szezesny's; Wishere's of this world are talented enough to compete - but cannot be relied upon consistently in terms of experience or mental strength while they are developing. On the other hand, once they have made the transition they become exceptional players for us.

I'm not sure that not getting the balance quite right over the past few years is down to Wenger getting stale. Its a very difficult thing to do - and the manager is up against teams with infinitely deeper pockets than we are.

Lastly, I don't really think its fair to point to how close we were to finishing 4th last season as a criticism of the team's mental strength. It was the opposite, really. We started off very badly and clawed our way up to 4th, rather than starting off well and fading towards the end like Spurs and Newcastle did. That is the sign of mental strength, IMO.

If you follow your line of argument than Citeh should be criticised because they were a hair's breadth away from finishing second.

[Kano]

fair enough. i take your points however i do still disagree and this is an age old argument that i have little heart to really delve into.

[Power n Glory]

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

I'd agree with that point. We hit rock bottom after the Man United result but it was the final day of the transfer window that lifted us. I heard experienced players like Merts, Arteta and Yossi were influential on the dressing room and showed leadership.

What annoys me about this fact is that we see it all the time. We know that buying new players lifts the teams spirits and adds that extra layer of depth to our team but when we're going for glory we never ever buy. It's only when there is a crisis. If we didn't get smashed to Man Utd, we wouldn't have bought so many players.

[Xhaka Can’t]

On the mental strength issue - I'm still undecided on how strong/weak we are but think we are heading in the right direction. It can certainly be argued that we showed great character to put ourselves back into contention for the CL places after the awful start to the season - where some people - not myself actually started talking about the potential of being uncomfortably involved in a relegation battle.

However, once we had hauled ourselves into the situation where we were in control of our own destiny in relation to the automatic CL spot, the wheels completely fell of the wagon once again. We were out of sight as far as Chelsea was concerned and had chance after chance to leave Tottenham almost as far back - and in every occasion, we blew it. We eventually secured 3rd, not through any degree of brilliance, but as a direct result of one of the worst (if not the worst) goalkeeping displays I have ever witnessed.

This team has shown it can demonstrate resilience, togetherness and the fortitude to go on a good run - a run that without any catastrophic hiccoughs can result in a challenge (an ultimately unsuccessful challenge) but when the wheels fall off and we face adversity when still having control of our destiny, we show the same frailities that we have grown accustomed to over the years. The only constans during that period were Wenger and Rice. I hope that Bould can bring about enough influence to bear on the team when the inevitable challenges to our mental stregth arise next season.

[IBK]

On the mental strength issue - I'm still undecided on how strong/weak we are but think we are heading in the right direction. It can certainly be argued that we showed great character to put ourselves back into contention for the CL places after the awful start to the season - where some people - not myself actually started talking about the potential of being uncomfortably involved in a relegation battle.

However, once we had hauled ourselves into the situation where we were in control of our own destiny in relation to the automatic CL spot, the wheels completely fell of the wagon once again. We were out of sight as far as Chelsea was concerned and had chance after chance to leave Tottenham almost as far back - and in every occasion, we blew it. We eventually secured 3rd, not through any degree of brilliance, but as a direct result of one of the worst (if not the worst) goalkeeping displays I have ever witnessed.

This team has shown it can demonstrate resilience, togetherness and the fortitude to go on a good run - a run that without any catastrophic hiccoughs can result in a challenge (an ultimately unsuccessful challenge) but when the wheels fall off and we face adversity when still having control of our destiny, we show the same frailities that we have grown accustomed to over the years. The only constans during that period were Wenger and Rice. I hope that Bould can bring about enough influence to bear on the team when the inevitable challenges to our mental stregth arise next season.

Yes, I've thought about that too (ie the apparent mini slump at the end). Given the preceeding season that we had had, I think I'm inclined to give AW the benefit of the doubt in terms of the mental capability of his team - and acknowledge that the end of the season was more down to the fatigue of twice hauling ourselves back into contention; certain players - RVP in particular - running on empty; the absence of other players (Arteta/Mertesacker) key to the balance of our team...

[Marc Overmars]

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

[IBK]

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Yes, I've thought about that too (ie the apparent mini slump at the end). Given the preceeding season that we had had, I think I'm inclined to give AW the benefit of the doubt in terms of the mental capability of his team - and acknowledge that the end of the season was more down to the fatigue of twice hauling ourselves back into contention; certain players - RVP in particular - running on empty; the absence of other players (Arteta/Mertesacker) key to the balance of our team...

I think the absence of Arteta was key. When he was out towards the end of the season, our defence seemed to cop a lot of flack for the ease with which pretty mediocre teams were able to score against us but I reckon the problem was in MF. I couldn't believe my eyes at home against Norwich - we were completely overrun in MF as if we had no one there. This resulted in the defence being under constant pressure the entire match.

[IBK]

I think the absence of Arteta was key. When he was out towards the end of the season, our defence seemed to cop a lot of flack for the ease with which pretty mediocre teams were able to score against us but I reckon the problem was in MF. I couldn't believe my eyes at home against Norwich - we were completely overrun in MF as if we had no one there. This resulted in the defence being under constant pressure the entire match.

Agreed - it was shocking how a limited team like Norwich ran through us like there was noone there...If you remember RVP missed a few sitters too - a sure sign of fatigue.

[Power n Glory]

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

[IBK]

By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

[Marc Overmars]

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

[IBK]

Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

Fatigue/injuries do have to be coped with, but for season after season we seem to have it a lot worse in terms of lengthof lay off and injuries to key players than anyone else. United might have been without Vidic - but we had how many defenders missing at various times? Remember that United, Citeh; Spurs; Newcastle all fecked up in their own ways at the sharp end of the season. Not just us.

[Flavs]

I think the absence of Arteta was key. .


This, his presence in this team just cannot be underestimated

[Flavs]

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

[Power n Glory]

Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

[IBK]

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

It will be really interesting to see how many he scores when he is not in an attacking team set up solely for him and his style of play. Lets remember that Adebayor scored 30+ and look what happened to him. I think RVP is quality, but he may well have been flattered by playing with us. I hope so, anyway.

[Flavs]

It will be really interesting to see how many he scores when he is not in an attacking team set up solely for him and his style of play. Lets remember that Adebayor scored 30+ and look what happened to him. I think RVP is quality, but he may well have been flattered by playing with us. I hope so, anyway.

Also be interesting to see how Pod and Giroud score when we get rid of RvP

[IBK]

'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

[Power n Glory]

Sour grapes. It's nuts to talk about Arteta and his influence but at the same time to downplay RVP's massive contribution to the team and his influence as captain. Yeah, he's being a dick, but let's not delude ourselves especially when we can see the value of having a guy like Arteta in the team.

[Power n Glory]

We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

Be objective at least. You don't have to sing his praises but to talk as if he won't be missed is silly. Cesc and Nasri were missed last season and if we had them in the squad, we'd have been much stronger. There is no denying that. Them leaving didn't balance us at all. We've never had a season where Cesc and RVP are in great form all season. We've never had a season where we've got workers in the middle, as well as creative flair players, plus pacy wingers on the flanks and strong defenders, plus wingbacks and a good keeper.

If we'd have kept them, we'd have had a strong and balanced team where we'd have cover and balance in all areas for once!

[Joker]

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

[Power n Glory]

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

:gp:

At least be consistent in your views an suddenly revise them because you're pissed off with him.

[Flavs]

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

Well no, you said he was a lot like Andy Johnson which is the kind of dumb-witted nonsense that most WUM like creatures spout upon us on a daily basis.

However he is over rated and any international level striker who plays a lot in our team will score goals. Jesus even Chamakh scored 7 when he was starting regularly.

[jelgoon]

Who is he overrated by exactly? Not by players of other teams or the press who voted him Player of the Year. And not by our fans up to the end of last season. Its so childish to make out that our want-away players were never much good anyway. On current form he is one of the best three strikers in the world. In contrast, Giroud couldnt even get into the crap French team. I know who I would want in out team
UOTE=Joker;166608]I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.[/QUOTE]

[IBK]

Be objective at least. You don't have to sing his praises but to talk as if he won't be missed is silly. Cesc and Nasri were missed last season and if we had them in the squad, we'd have been much stronger. There is no denying that. Them leaving didn't balance us at all. We've never had a season where Cesc and RVP are in great form all season. We've never had a season where we've got workers in the middle, as well as creative flair players, plus pacy wingers on the flanks and strong defenders, plus wingbacks and a good keeper.

If we'd have kept them, we'd have had a strong and balanced team where we'd have cover and balance in all areas for once!

Sorry - but I see nothing revisionist about a) wondereing whether RVP will be as prolific once he leaves us, and b) questioning whether he was a committed a captain as we thought, given recent history. I used to be a RVP fan. I'm not anymore - but I have never attempted to suggest that he is other than a very good player.

[Letters]

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

He's now an 'ex' and thus not to be praised like he was when he was one of us. People are fickle like that. That doesn't mean anyone subscribes to the views you were expressing about him all last season when he was scoring for fun and single handedly keeping us in contention of a top 4 finish when without him we'd have been languishing in mid-table.

[Joker]

Well no, you said he was a lot like Andy Johnson which is the kind of dumb-witted nonsense that most WUM like creatures spout upon us on a daily basis.

However he is over rated and any international level striker who plays a lot in our team will score goals. Jesus even Chamakh scored 7 when he was starting regularly.

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

[Cripps_orig]

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

Welcome to GW

[Power n Glory]

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

Damn right. It's a double standard and people need to be called on bullshit.

[cricketsi]

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

I think you're mistaken if you think you suddenly have a lot of backing for some of the idiocy you spouted about RVP the past couple of seasons. People are frustrated/angry with him, but some of your analyses, e.g. most of his goals are meaningless +1s against weak sides, are still blatant bullshit (He earned Arsenal 27 points last season, based on his goals and assists - the most of any player in the league).

[Xhaka Can’t]

I hate what he is doing and how he is doing it, but he was fucking spectacular over his last 18 months with us and pretty much whenever he had a decent run in the team.

There isn't a team in the world that would absorb the loss of the quality of Van Persie without noticing it.

[Power n Glory]

I think you're mistaken if you think you suddenly have a lot of backing for some of the idiocy you spouted about RVP the past couple of seasons. People are frustrated/angry with him, but some of your analyses, e.g. most of his goals are meaningless +1s against weak sides, are still blatant bullshit (He earned Arsenal 27 points last season, based on his goals and assists - the most of any player in the league).

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=851

Pretty funny when looking back on when that thread was started and how opinions have changed. He said straight off the bat that we need someone more reliable and well rounded last year. Now look what's being said in this thread and towards the end of that RVP thread. I disagree with Joker's opinion on RVP as a player, but I wouldn't call it idiocy. It's an opinion. I've got more a problem with people now changing their tune because he doesn't want to play for us, even though we knew this day was coming and people were saying they'd understand why he'd want to leave.

[Letters]

"This idiot should realise he's part of the reason we've done so shit in the league this season."

is idiocy when RvP was the only reason we didn't finish 7th.

[gooners]

Sorry - but I see nothing revisionist about a) wondereing whether RVP will be as prolific once he leaves us, and b) questioning whether he was a committed a captain as we thought, given recent history. I used to be a RVP fan. I'm not anymore - but I have never attempted to suggest that he is other than a very good player.

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

[fakeyank]

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

:gp:

[IBK]

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

[Power n Glory]

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

:gp:

Good first post! It's déjà vu. It bothers me that the board and manager keep making the same mistakes each season but it also really annoys me to hear fans follow the same pattern of thought each time a player wants to leave.

[LDG]

If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

Sub :bow:

[Globalgunner]

If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

Why are people always so irascible on on internet boards?. Its as if any contrary opinion is a challenge to ones manhood or maybe womanhood (dont want to appear sexist). Contrary opinions that do not make personal insults should not be answered by SCUD missile barrages. It gets all so tedious at times. The man made a reasonable post with no belittling content. This is the reason why the world is in such a mess. Cant we fight with pillows instead of sledgehammers..... can we.

Ok I re-read the post so maybe there was some inferred sarcasm but still, this stuff cant be good for anyone`s B.P

[IBK]

Why are people always so irascible on on internet boards?. Its as if any contrary opinion is a challenge to ones manhood or maybe womanhood (dont want to appear sexist). Contrary opinions that do not make personal insults should not be answered by SCUD missile barrages. It gets all so tedious at times. The man made a reasonable post with no belittling content. This is the reason why the world is in such a mess. Cant we fight with pillows instead of sledgehammers..... can we.

Ok I re-read the post so maybe there was some inferred sarcasm but still, this stuff cant be good for anyone`s B.P

It wasn't a particularly aggressive post, mate. This was more aggressive...Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at :unsure:

[gooners]

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:

1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:

1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

:gp: A breath of fresh air- please post more :good:

[cricketsi]

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

While I agree with your assessment that RVP's importance last season shouldn't be downplayed I don't think that this is a fact - I don't believe Adebayor is good enough for Man City at the level they want to be at and that is the main reason for him not being retained. If he had Aguero or Tevez's ability they'd accommodate his attitude and ego problems. The fact is he can only score goals when they're laid on a plate for him - 100% of his goals came from clear cut chances and even his conversion rate of those isn't great. See link:

http://www.eplindex.com/14273/best-premier-league-striker-opta-stats-analysis.html

[IBK]

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:


1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

I have no issue with this statement at all - as I have never argued that RVP is not a quality player.


2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

I don't follow your argument. The fact that we were not top scorers does not mean that we are not set up as an attacking team. We are undoubtedly an attacking, as opposed to a counter-attacking team. I don't think you can ignore the fact that RVP was a) played as the sole focal point of our attack, and b) was our captain and the player that all the others looked to when assessing his performance.

You have made a mistake in assuming that because I have questioned whether, like Adebayor, he will be quite as prolific away from Arsenal, this means that his scoring record for us is not remarkable. Of course it is, and I have never suggested otherwise. This is the problem with the way views become polarised on a MB like this. Pose a question in relation to a favourite player and you are being laughably critical. Point out that a 'pariah' player may have some redeeming features and you are an idiot.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but not having seem RVP perform away from Arsenal, I fail to see how you can be so categorical in your opinion that he will replicate his form of last season, or so dismissive of any suggestion that he might not.


3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

This is a curious argument. I pointed out that Adebayor was not as prolific as he was at Arsenal in his standout season when he left. I made no comment as to why he left Citeh. It is uncontrovertible fact that he was nowhere near as prolific at either Citeh; Real Madris or Spurs than he was in his penultimate season with us. And any fall out with Mancini was because he did not perform like a £180K pw striker. Do you think that if he had been scoring for fun, Mancini would have let him go? Well Tevez returned to the fold after a far higher profile falling out, didn't he? I have already provided evidence that Adebayor was over-valued and overpaid.

Whether Adebayor scored more than our second, third, fourth choice strikers is completely irrelevant to any point that I have made.


4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

Again, we are arguing at cross purposes. I have not been debating what the cause of our best players leaving is. I would have thought that point is obvious - the club is not prepared to spend enough money to keep them. The question I asked is whether RVP was as committed, and therefore as indispensible a captain as some might suggest. And that is an entirely fair question in its own right, looking forwards.

I cannot see how you can be both a committed captain of AFC and presume to have fundamental differences with the club about the way it is run. The fact that you, and others might sympathise with the views that RVP expresses does not, for me, mean that he was right to express them. At the end of the day, RVP is a football player, not a club owner, or manager. The fact that he is the latest in a long line of players to try to manipulate a club's situation to his own ends in order to force a move away is hardly a reason to support that player, IMO.


What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

I agree. What more could he have done to put himself in the shop window?

[Power n Glory]

Ice, way back last year, you said you'd understand why RVP would want to leave the club. How else did you expect this scenerio to play out?

[IBK]

Ice, way back last year, you said you'd understand why RVP would want to leave the club. How else did you expect this scenerio to play out?

I do understand why he would want to leave the club. I'll be interested to see whether he does as well elsewhere, and I resent the way in which he has engineered his departure, but of course I understand why a player would wish to leave to a) earn more money, and b) have a better chance of winning something. The extent to which a) trumps b) with these players is always open for debate. It disappoints, rather than surprises me that RVP wants away - particularly when we look like being more proactive in the transfer market this Summer.

I also have concerns about the intentions and motivation of the club's owners.

But what I cannot do, as an Arsenal fan, is support what RVP; Fabregas; Nasri etc do. Understanding a player's motivation is not the same, IMO, as condoning it.

[Power n Glory]

Sounds to me as if you've chained your tune slightly because before you said you'd find it hard to criticise the guy. Now it seems your convinced his move away is based on money when back during the season your early comments were based on what we were seeing on the pitch.

[LDG]

I think the senario last year was different anyway. EVERYONE could understand if RVP left on the basis of last summer's debacle. He was also conducting himself extremely well, as captain and on the outside (at least), as a genuine footballer who cared about the club.

However, I think the team showed much more over the campaign after the woeful start. RVP should have been proud of the club for what it achieved, considering where we came from. If he wanted proof we were moving somewhere, he need ony look at how we pulled our socks up, and the way in which we appear to be conducting our summer business thus far.

If. IF, we bring in a few more quality additions, we'll be looking pretty strong for a side who can't compete with the megabucks.

What RVP and his agents did was poor brinkmanship, which to my mind has blown up in his face. And for that, he deservedly needs taking down a peg or two.

So yes. I hope he fails miserably if he goes. If he becomes the bigger person and goes back on what his statement said, works hard and signs a new deal, brilliant. Because he's a brilliant footballer. Taking back his comments would go a long way to proving he is above the money.

But I fear he's made that impossible for himself now. Stupid, stupid statement IMO.

[IBK]

Sounds to me as if you've chained your tune slightly because before you said you'd find it hard to criticise the guy. Now it seems your convinced his move away is based on money when back during the season your early comments were based on what we were seeing on the pitch.

Not really. As LDG says - the debacle that was last Summer's transfer season and the subsequent appalling start to the season meant that it would be difficult to blame a top class player (which RVP undoubtedby is) for leaving. But times change. We finished 3rd last season; have CL football again, and RVP had, to all intents and purposes, become captain of a united Arsenal team that had shown that it could compete on the pitch against the top teams. What's more, with the signings of Podolski and Giroud, the club has shown an ambition that appeared to be lacking last season.

Given the change around, it would not have been unreasonable to hope that RVP would wish to remain top dog at a club where he was adored.

Instead, not only was he unwilling to sign a new contract, but he showed that he was willing to damage the club in order to avoid having to play out the final year of his contract. IMO this is a clear indication that this move is about money more than about winning trophies.

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of the questions that I have been criticised for asking - namely whether he will reach the heaights that he has elsewhere, and whether he was the committed captain we all thought he was.

[gooners]

I have no issue with this statement at all - as I have never argued that RVP is not a quality player.



I don't follow your argument. The fact that we were not top scorers does not mean that we are not set up as an attacking team. We are undoubtedly an attacking, as opposed to a counter-attacking team. I don't think you can ignore the fact that RVP was a) played as the sole focal point of our attack, and b) was our captain and the player that all the others looked to when assessing his performance.

You have made a mistake in assuming that because I have questioned whether, like Adebayor, he will be quite as prolific away from Arsenal, this means that his scoring record for us is not remarkable. Of course it is, and I have never suggested otherwise. This is the problem with the way views become polarised on a MB like this. Pose a question in relation to a favourite player and you are being laughably critical. Point out that a 'pariah' player may have some redeeming features and you are an idiot.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but not having seem RVP perform away from Arsenal, I fail to see how you can be so categorical in your opinion that he will replicate his form of last season, or so dismissive of any suggestion that he might not.



This is a curious argument. I pointed out that Adebayor was not as prolific as he was at Arsenal in his standout season when he left. I made no comment as to why he left Citeh. It is uncontrovertible fact that he was nowhere near as prolific at either Citeh; Real Madris or Spurs than he was in his penultimate season with us. And any fall out with Mancini was because he did not perform like a £180K pw striker. Do you think that if he had been scoring for fun, Mancini would have let him go? Well Tevez returned to the fold after a far higher profile falling out, didn't he? I have already provided evidence that Adebayor was over-valued and overpaid.

Whether Adebayor scored more than our second, third, fourth choice strikers is completely irrelevant to any point that I have made.



Again, we are arguing at cross purposes. I have not been debating what the cause of our best players leaving is. I would have thought that point is obvious - the club is not prepared to spend enough money to keep them. The question I asked is whether RVP was as committed, and therefore as indispensible a captain as some might suggest. And that is an entirely fair question in its own right, looking forwards.

I cannot see how you can be both a committed captain of AFC and presume to have fundamental differences with the club about the way it is run. The fact that you, and others might sympathise with the views that RVP expresses does not, for me, mean that he was right to express them. At the end of the day, RVP is a football player, not a club owner, or manager. The fact that he is the latest in a long line of players to try to manipulate a club's situation to his own ends in order to force a move away is hardly a reason to support that player, IMO.



I agree. What more could he have done to put himself in the shop window?


Again, Rvp is a quality player. Whether or not he will score the same number of goals elsewhere is irrelevant and does not even merit discussion. You could say the same for every other key player in any team.

Also, adebayor was not the main striker at spurs or even city. And my point is he has acquitted himself well. But what does it matter, because unless he scores the same number of goals he did in his best season with us, you will claim arsenal was the reason for that tally - which is ridiculous because a quality player is a quality player.

And ade's situation is completely different from tevez's. Granted he hasn't the same profile as tevez, but my point is he did not fit in mancini's plans. Mancini like any new manager came to the club with his own ideas. That is not an indictment on ade's turnover as a striker. Why dont you look up his tally last season.

Finally it is utterly absurd to suggest that rvps performance last season was to advertise his services. I have never understood this ridiculous and spurious assertion that is regularly made on this board. What is that based on? He wants to leave after reveiwing his options at the close of the season? Did he not leave all talk about his contract till the seasons end? What is odd about that? Wenger has always done that.

[LDG]

4.

[The Ogg Monster]

Cant see how we lack ambition now Podolski and Cazorla have arrived.

[Xhaka Can’t]

4.

This, and it is the only point worth making in reply - because a well though out and articulate post seems to regularly miss the mark here.

IBK and yourself have effectively summed up my thoughts on the topic of discussion.

[Power n Glory]

Not really. As LDG says - the debacle that was last Summer's transfer season and the subsequent appalling start to the season meant that it would be difficult to blame a top class player (which RVP undoubtedby is) for leaving. But times change. We finished 3rd last season; have CL football again, and RVP had, to all intents and purposes, become captain of a united Arsenal team that had shown that it could compete on the pitch against the top teams. What's more, with the signings of Podolski and Giroud, the club has shown an ambition that appeared to be lacking last season.

Given the change around, it would not have been unreasonable to hope that RVP would wish to remain top dog at a club where he was adored.

Instead, not only was he unwilling to sign a new contract, but he showed that he was willing to damage the club in order to avoid having to play out the final year of his contract. IMO this is a clear indication that this move is about money more than about winning trophies.

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of the questions that I have been criticised for asking - namely whether he will reach the heaights that he has elsewhere, and whether he was the committed captain we all thought he was.

We finished 3rd but really looked toothless towards the end of the season. We struggled to pick up points in our last 5 games. Also, RVP had talks with Wenger and Gazidis about the future of the club and didn't like what he was told. Is that so hard to believe considering what we've heard Wenger say other the past month about needing to sell before we buy, having cover in the middle, applauding our self-sufficiency model again. The players we're signing maybe mere replacements instead of additions. We hope that's not the case. Also, is it far fetched to assume that the RVP fallout has sparked the club into action regarding our summer activity?

But this is a tiresome conversation and fans continue to follow the same train of thought each year when one of our star players wants to leave. Even when all season we've voiced the same concerns. This whole thread is about Wenger and questioning his managerial ability. If we're having such an open debate about this, why wouldn't the players feel the same when more is at stake for their careers?

[IBK]

I'll give it one last try...


Again, Rvp is a quality player. Whether or not he will score the same number of goals elsewhere is irrelevant and does not even merit discussion. You could say the same for every other key player in any team.

Its not irrelevant - given that this was precisely the point that you chose to pick me up on when we got into this. I have never claimed that RVP was other than a quality player.


Also, adebayor was not the main striker at spurs or even city.

I wonder whether you realise what you have said here, in the context of our discussion? If Adebayor could have a 30+ season with us because he was our main striker, but his scoring record declined elsewhere because he wasn't, why should RVP not follow a similar pattern.


And my point is he has acquitted himself well.

That might be your point - but its not the point we were debating - which was whether his goal tally diminished, which it has.


But what does it matter, because unless he scores the same number of goals he did in his best season with us, you will claim arsenal was the reason for that tally - which is ridiculous because a quality player is a quality player.

So at the same time as implying that Adebayor's stand out season was because because he was our main striker, you lampoon me for suggesting that Arsenal was the reason for his high goal tally. Curiouser and curiouser!


And ade's situation is completely different from tevez's. Granted he hasn't the same profile as tevez, but my point is he did not fit in mancini's plans. Mancini like any new manager came to the club with his own ideas. That is not an indictment on ade's turnover as a striker. Why dont you look up his tally last season.

It is an indictment. If Adebayor's strike rate was what it was in his penultimate season for us, do you think Mancini would have got rid? Would Mourinho have got rid? Clearly Spurs is his level, and Spurs are a level below us. Adebayor is an object lesson in a player thinking he is better than us, and events not reflecting this. I am not saying that RVP will follow the same trajectory, but its hardly laughable for me to ask whether he might not be as prolific once he leaves us.


Finally it is utterly absurd to suggest that rvps performance last season was to advertise his services. I have never understood this ridiculous and spurious assertion that is regularly made on this board. What is that based on? He wants to leave after reveiwing his options at the close of the season? Did he not leave all talk about his contract till the seasons end? What is odd about that? Wenger has always done that.

Your intemperate language, when all your arguments are so open to challenge does you no favours. What is your alternative view based on? If you look past your inclination to side with player rather than a board you clearly blame, than you will remember that AFC appraoched RVP after the 2010/11 season to open contcat negotiations, but the player was not interested in talking to the club. What does this say to you? That he was not committed to the club.

If you are disenchanted with your job, and think that you might receive offers elsewhere, would you not wish to perform to the best of your abilities so as to make a move more likely? Why would that be different for a player. And why would you think that RVP's motivation in his stand out season was not principally to further his own interests? THAT is what my comment was based on.

[IBK]

We finished 3rd but really looked toothless towards the end of the season. We struggled to pick up points in our last 5 games. Also, RVP had talks with Wenger and Gazidis about the future of the club and didn't like what he was told. Is that so hard to believe considering what we've heard Wenger say other the past month about needing to sell before we buy, having cover in the middle, applauding our self-sufficiency model again. The players we're signing maybe mere replacements instead of additions. We hope that's not the case. Also, is it far fetched to assume that the RVP fallout has sparked the club into action regarding our summer activity?

But this is a tiresome conversation and fans continue to follow the same train of thought each year when one of our star players wants to leave. Even when all season we've voiced the same concerns. This whole thread is about Wenger and questioning his managerial ability. If we're having such an open debate about this, why wouldn't the players feel the same when more is at stake for their careers?

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

[GP]

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

Good post.

[Power n Glory]

Does it even matter whether or not he's prolific when he leave us? We still suffer as a team with his departure and our image takes another blow.

Regarding RVP playing himself into the shop window....you don't believe that do you? He was in fine form form when he returned from injury in the 2010/2011 season. He's always been a player that gives a 100% on the pitch. Everything he did last season is being looked upon with sheer cynicism now. Why would he not play at his best to improve the teams chances of winning the league/FA Cup/CL?

[Power n Glory]

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

Bollocks to that man. Can't even believe after all the discussions we've had about how we need to change as club to move forward that you're even going to pull that card. The discussion can end here.

[IBK]

Bollocks to that man. Can't even believe after all the discussions we've had about how we need to change as club to move forward that you're even going to pull that card. The discussion can end here.

I don't think you have understood my context, PNG. I have as many concerns as you do about the changes that need to be made to our club. But I am drawing a distinction between every fan's right to question what their club is doing, and support for players who basically fuck us over. They are two different things.

Secondly, while there are many things that the club does that are open to question, we do need to realise that these questions are in the context of a club that has fallen from 1/2nd place in the league to 3/4th. We have never been out of the CL places under AW - but the feeling sometimes is that we are relegation material. I don't think its unreasonable to look at ourselves and wonder whether the depth of our disenchantment is because we have grown a bit stale.

First and foremost, whatever our criticism of the board/owners, we are Gooners. To me that means that I naturally hate players that are dislooyal to us. Being a football fan is an emotional business. If my girlfriend dumps me for a millionaire male model, I might resent my low paid job, but that is eclipsed by hatred of her. My first reaction sure as hell ain;t going to be - 'well I can hardly blame her'!

[IBK]

Does it even matter whether or not he's prolific when he leave us? We still suffer as a team with his departure and our image takes another blow.

Regarding RVP playing himself into the shop window....you don't believe that do you? He was in fine form form when he returned from injury in the 2010/2011 season. He's always been a player that gives a 100% on the pitch. Everything he did last season is being looked upon with sheer cynicism now. Why would he not play at his best to improve the teams chances of winning the league/FA Cup/CL?

It matters, because that was the innocuous question that I was pulled up on. I agree 100% that we are weaker in many ways without him.

And everything he did last season is quite rightly being regarded with cynicism, because he can hardly have behaved more cynically towards the club. If his interests lay with the team he would a) not have made his statement, and b) have been prepared to negotiate a new contract with us.

[Joker]

Yes, there's not a contradiction between fans who love the club to show strong antipathy against the owners. The owners are not Arsenal FC, they are primarily businessmen who know the price of everything but the value of nothing. Some owners are better than others, but at our club it has become manifest that our owners are totally out of touch with the fans, which explains the season ticket price hikes in recent seasons, the patronising BS written by PHW in the Daily Star, and the continuous blind adherence to our "self sustainable" model which relies on treating fans as consumers to be exploited rather than people without whom no football club would exist.

You could argue some of the former shareholders have a long history with Arsenal FC, which is fine, but their recent actions (especially by cashing out having put little in the way of investment into the club) suggests they see Arsenal as purely a financial investment vehicle.

RE: whether the views of the players should be taken on board, yes I think it should be. Otherwise we have a situation where the separation between the fans and the owners simply grows bigger and bigger, with the fans caring about what happens on the pitch and the owners looking at the balance sheet. Of course you could say players are mercenaries, so their views don't align perfectly with the fans either, but I'd argue their views are closer to the average fans' than the owners' are.

Worker representation on the boards has actually worked well in other industries (for example, in Germany you have union/workers representation on every board), and their businesses run much better than the "short-term obsessed" UK businesses. I know the analogy is not perfect, but I still believe it could work well in football as well.

[selassie]

At least Arsene is active in the market this summer and it appears he's going for established/semi-established quality too. Forget about all the 25m+ players City & Chelski are going for, the 15mill+ players that we seem to be in the market for are probably as best as we can attract and to be honest we should have been doing this a long time ago.

[LDG]

For me there is a distinction to be made between how and what we discuss on this message board, what fan groups think, what The AST thinks, what the pure football fan thinks and what the "media fan" thinks. We all have our right to express our view of course, and no one fan is better than another (apart from NBN of course, who is the bestest Arsenal fan ever).

We on here, do take things to a different level than someone who just follows the media transfer merry-go-round, but at the same time,we don't always look at it from a pure footballing perspective. It sometimes comes accross as pretty snooty, it must be said. Because regardless of what anyone says, we are proven to be the 3rd best team in the country right now. It says so in black and white.

Wenger has his critics, no doubt. To me, that can be broken down into many aspects. But if you look at the one that really matters, it's what happens on the football pitch, and I don't think there are many fans now who don't have concerns that he has made made mistakes, and that we really have had enough quality and opportunity to be more successful that we have been. We all know we should have won the league at least once in the four seasons preceeding the last one. It was ours for the taking....THAT is Wenger's fault, and what we should be calling him out on.

We really don't know what is going on at board level, and we can only has at a guess as to what is happenning. My guess is that it is far more about politics and money and power than it is about football. But I do not for one second think that our manager has much influence over that wrangling, other than to threaten his resignation if he doesn't get what he wants. To that degree, I think he has a massive say, but maybe he has some misguided morals / ideals that don't necessarily come to fruition on the football pitch, and in the current football economic climate.

To me, it seems as though something is being freed up. Football does seem to be being pushed toward the forefront again. And if that happens we'll have a lot more fans on side....and it is ultimately what will keep the fans happy.

It's all about football. Fuck the politics. And fuck RVP.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

:gp:

[Flavs]

I want to know whose job it is to sell all the players we don't want and why it is taking so long? I would happily accept free transfers for the lot of them. Wanting 5-8mil for Chamakh is ridiculous considering his last season.

Vela, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner, Squid, Flaps, Park, all command good wages (especially Arshavin) and clubs would want them so just get rid. Why do we keep loaning Denilson out? Just release him FFS

[Flavs]

I want to know whose job it is to sell all the players we don't want and why it is taking so long? I would happily accept free transfers for the lot of them. Wanting 5-8mil for Chamakh is ridiculous considering his last season.

Vela, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner, Squid, Flaps, Park, all command good wages (especially Arshavin) and clubs would want them so just get rid. Why do we keep loaning Denilson out? Just release him FFS

Just adding to this the players i mention there what kind of wages must hey be on?

Vela/Flaps 15-20k pw
Arshavin 50-60k pm
Chamakh/Bendtner - 40-50k pw
Squid is apparently on near to 50 a week :lol:

That's what, £10mil a season in wages ffs

[Syn]

I want to know whose job it is to sell all the players we don't want and why it is taking so long? I would happily accept free transfers for the lot of them. Wanting 5-8mil for Chamakh is ridiculous considering his last season.

Vela, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner, Squid, Flaps, Park, all command good wages (especially Arshavin) and clubs would want them so just get rid. Why do we keep loaning Denilson out? Just release him FFS

We're willing to accept very low transfer fees. We're talking about selling Vela for something like 4m euros. The problem is we've committed to paying relatively high wages to guys like Chamakh, Bendtner and others. No clubs want to touch them for exactly reason.

So I guess the question isn't so much who handles our outgoing transfers, but who hands out the generous contracts to unproven players.

[Globalgunner]

A contract should have terms that protect both sides. I doubt we can simply terminate a players contract w/o incurring some penalties or having to face the courts. Not knowing the finer details of whats written in Bendtner, Denilson Arshavin et al contracts but I am sure we cannot simply release them without having to pay some sort of severance parachute for loss of income. The mismangement is giving these players such inflated rates ab initio. These chaps are being paid way beyond their market value, sither because they were never as good as they seemed to be (Denilson Bentdner) or have stagnated under our care.....(Arshavin). Ergo! no one wants to take them off our hands.

The thing that pisses me off with the Arsenal business model is that we like to claim poverty, but throw money like confetti on bog standard players, failing to reward adequately the players who deserve it. There is nothing wrong with one player earning 5 times what others do in the same team IF it is merited. We further compound this idiocy by pegging an artificial transfer fee ceiling of 17mGBP, when this cannot pay for the top echelon targets we claim to be after. FURTHER, we now want the fans to subsidise this nonsense with ever increasing prices at the ticket counter for poor reward in trophies.

[Dennis Bendtner]

They aren't going to be chucked out for free (or with the severance packages and what not). Project yoof is there to make Arsenal money. They invested a lot in the 'development' of the likes of Vela, Denilson, Dennis Bendtner and so on. Important to at least make up some of the wasted wages that have been paid to them by getting some transfer fee. Even then, with this particular generation of deadwood, we're going to take a fair few hits. Denilson was £3.4m as an 18-year old. Fucker is serving us no use going on loan deals probably until the end of his contract. As well you know it's important to be more careful in these deals in the future.

[Kano]

I want to know whose job it is to sell all the players we don't want and why it is taking so long? I would happily accept free transfers for the lot of them. Wanting 5-8mil for Chamakh is ridiculous considering his last season.

Vela, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner, Squid, Flaps, Park, all command good wages (especially Arshavin) and clubs would want them so just get rid. Why do we keep loaning Denilson out? Just release him FFS
at the end of the day though they have to maximise their assets (the players). on the other side the buying clubs know they can also sit tight and play the waiting game. the window will kick off once the season starts, in its last two weeks and we'll shift some but not all the unwanted. i mean, tottenham played bentley in their pre season game - even though west ham had him on loan, there have been no fast moves to make him a perm hammer - he still has two years left.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Bentley. :haha: