Gooners have been spoilt

[IBK]

No - not like that. I mean that a combination of petro dollars and 7 trophy less years seems to have turned many of us into bitter, perennially alienated fans.

This is no Wenger apologist thread, but it amazes me the comments I've seen on here and elsewhere about our team and club. The fact that we a written off after a single game where we failed to win against a team that will grind out many bore draws this season against decent opposition. Slagging off of players who have played a single competitive match together.

I asked recently whether it is Wenger who has become stale or whether it is us? The attitude that has been shown by many Gooners so far this season would suggest it is firmly the latter. Does slipping off your perch make every fan feel like this? I'd love to hear from some older Liverpool, Spurs or Villa fans, because it's difficult to imagine more of a negative outlook at the beginning of a season. Sure, we are unlikely to win the league, yes we have lost one player we admired, and another who IMO is Adebayor-lite. But Wenger seems to be trying to deliver something different at least.

Have we honestly forgotten to enjoy seeing a team develop? Do our new signings not deserve a little faith? Are we not even half excited about seeing perhaps a different style of football once new players bed in. Or have we become so jaded by our club's failure to spend petro-dollar style that we only watch Arsenal to see us fail?

[LDG]

We have been spoiled, though I don't know if I've moaned that much.

I get pissed off more with football in general than I do with club specifics (though many of those sickening things happening in football are prevelent at our club).

Still think Aw is a genius for delivering without spending anything, and I'm genuinely excited about the season ahead, and the new signings. I think we're a stronger side than we were last year.

If we didn't hear so much guff in the media, I'm pretty sure 50% of the disatisfied fans would be of the same opinion.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

i agree with LDG, generally speaking football has turned shit over the last 10 years or so. but this is the 1st season in the last 5 say that i am quite happy with the summer and looking forward to this team gelling in the near future. I am not that old but have seen the arsenal in a lot worse times then these so realise theres always ups n downs but we do have a top manager IMO and this year i truly believe will be a re emergence of arsenal as a force. but younger fans maybe do want instant success, maybe they have grown up not knowing what it was like pre-AW days and so all they have seen is success. I can wait if things are moving in the right direction. there is still plenty of time this summer for us to still fuck up big time tho! the hu ha after our 1st game was incredible! i mean, if we lost half this forum would be on suicide watch!

[Cripps_orig]

The reaction after the first game was justified.

It might have been the first game of the season but to us, it felt like just another game of the previous 3 seasons where nothing had been learned and we lacked any ideas on how to break teams down.

We bought in 3 players which of course raised the excitement level and rightly so cos Wenger buying 3 ready made players is literally unheard of these days but then we go and sell 2 of our star players so right back to square one.

Seeing the same shit, same mistakes same everything being made season in and season out can make anyone pull their hair out. 7 years we have not developed, what makes people think we will this season? We have not improved at all the last 7 years. Sure the first 2/3 years, we were content with top 4 as we settled in to the new stadium and a new era but then we expected the club to push on and once again become challengers for the main trophies cos as i said, if we keep challenging for the league then eventually we will win it but unfortunately the board and Wenger are quite content with settling for top 4 and the level we are at atm and takes no risk of trying to challenge. I thought he was taking a risk by bringing in players this summer but we have pretty much made back what we spent with the sales of RVP and Song so we havent moved on at all imo

Add the fact we play shit football, pay the most of any fans in the country to see this shit football and you can see why fans are the way they are.

Not much wrong with the fans, plenty wrong with the top brass at the club

[IBK]

We have been spoiled, though I don't know if I've moaned that much.

I get pissed off more with football in general than I do with club specifics (though many of those sickening things happening in football are prevelent at our club).

Still think Aw is a genius for delivering without spending anything, and I'm genuinely excited about the season ahead, and the new signings. I think we're a stronger side than we were last year.

If we didn't hear so much guff in the media, I'm pretty sure 50% of the disatisfied fans would be of the same opinion.

Mate not putting all in one basket - and I like your attitude. Not a WKB but nevertheless positive in your approach.

You are right about the media. But the same 'season written off' was present at the Emirates last Saturday too. IMHO this is why Chelsea and Citeh are most guilty. It's not a question of fact when it comes to clubs being richer than others - that has always been the case - its a question of degree, and the petrodollar clubs are guilty of making everyone not spanking 10s of millions like it was nothing feel aggrieved with their clubs. Gooners most of all.

[Power n Glory]

7 years and running and some fans patience have worn thin. First game, some fans went OT, but it's also OT for this sort of thread in response. It's too early to call anything. We're looking more active in the transfer window, yet we're still selling players. We've got a fresh team, but will Wenger work out a system that gets the very best out of each player? We don't know yet. But I wouldn't start turning the knife on fans considering the last few years we've had.

[IBK]

The reaction after the first game was justified.

It might have been the first game of the season but to us, it felt like just another game of the previous 3 seasons where nothing had been learned and we lacked any ideas on how to break teams down.

We bought in 3 players which of course raised the excitement level and rightly so cos Wenger buying 3 ready made players is literally unheard of these days but then we go and sell 2 of our star players so right back to square one.

Seeing the same shit, same mistakes same everything being made season in and season out can make anyone pull their hair out. 7 years we have not developed, what makes people think we will this season? We have not improved at all the last 7 years. Sure the first 2/3 years, we were content with top 4 as we settled in to the new stadium and a new era but then we expected the club to push on and once again become challengers for the main trophies cos as i said, if we keep challenging for the league then eventually we will win it but unfortunately the board and Wenger are quite content with settling for top 4 and the level we are at atm and takes no risk of trying to challenge. I thought he was taking a risk by bringing in players this summer but we have pretty much made back what we spent with the sales of RVP and Song so we havent moved on at all imo

Add the fact we play shit football, pay the most of any fans in the country to see this shit football and you can see why fans are the way they are.

Not much wrong with the fans, plenty wrong with the top brass at the club

I'm with you on the one step forwards two steps back - and the frustration that that causes - but firstly would that have been quite the case without Citeh and Chelsea's presence, secondly could the cub really have done anything about our terminal to leave players and their agents, and lastly, is it ally really fair to level the same accusation against the club this season, when it seems as though therre has been more of a fundamental change in our approach?

[IBK]

7 years and running and some fans patience have worn thin. First game, some fans went OT, but it's also OT for this sort of thread in response. It's too early to call anything. We're looking more active in the transfer window, yet we're still selling players. We've got a fresh team, but will Wenger work out a system that gets the very best out of each player? We don't know yet. But I wouldn't start turning the knife on fans considering the last few years we've had.

Didn't think the thread was OT, but your are entitled to your opinion mate. Seems to me that it's come to the point though that short of us a) risking the club's stability by joining the £200k pw club, or b) signing a super marquee player, there are Gooners who are now almost permanently disenchanted with their club.

[AKBapologist]

I feel quite optimistic...
Not sure what your all bitching about, nor what the OP is bitching about others bitching about.

1) Has more or less replaced quality with quality, for the first time in god knows how long.

2) There's even a small chance we may even spend more than we get from player sales, which has only happened a couple of times in the last 10 years.

3) Almost all the deadwood (everyone barring Chamakh) looks to be gone...

4) AW seems to have found his glasses again - Looks like the professor is back.


This is easily the best summer we've had in the last 7 years, and if we follow it up with 2-3 more signings before the end of next week I see no reason why we can't be competitive

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

you reap what you sow in this life - we pay one of the highest ticket prices in Europe, therefore we expect something back for our money like an actually serious attempt to address why we haven't won anything in so long.
The result of the Sunderland game was merely what was to be expected when you take your top goalscorer out of the side and expect two guys from foreign leagues neither of whom were able to feature in pre-season (one game aside) and throw them in at the deep end and ask for immediate results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

3) Almost all the deadwood (everyone barring Chamakh) looks to be gone...

Arshavin is still here, Park is still here, Bendtner is still here, Squillaci is still here, Djourou is still here

[AKBapologist]

3) Almost all the deadwood (everyone barring Chamakh) looks to be gone...

Arshavin is still here, Park is still here, Bendtner is still here, Squillaci is still here, Djourou is still here

Doubt all but Djourou will be here come the beginning of September, and tbf, DJ isn't bad for 4th choice CB.

[Power n Glory]

Didn't think the thread was OT, but your are entitled to your opinion mate. Seems to me that it's come to the point though that short of us a) risking the club's stability by joining the £200k pw club, or b) signing a super marquee player, there are Gooners who are now almost permanently disenchanted with their club.

That's not true for most Gooners and an exaggeration. It's too early for all this. One game in, the transfer window hasn't shut and we've still got a way to go. GW in general has been quiet and there hasn't been many people moaning about the players we've signed. The match thread hasn't exploded either. Way to early to call anything.

[Marc Overmars]

Looking forward to the season ahead because of the signings and I'll always live in hope, but I don't think we're good enough and never will be until things change at the top. I've been gradually worn down over the past 7 years, we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Anything we do now is normally met with "oh we're bound to fuck it up one way or another".

Prove me wrong, Arsenal.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

I feel quite optimistic...
Not sure what your all bitching about, nor what the OP is bitching about others bitching about.

1) Has more or less replaced quality with quality, for the first time in god knows how long.

2) There's even a small chance we may even spend more than we get from player sales, which has only happened a couple of times in the last 10 years.

3) Almost all the deadwood (everyone barring Chamakh) looks to be gone...

4) AW seems to have found his glasses again - Looks like the professor is back.


This is easily the best summer we've had in the last 7 years, and if we follow it up with 2-3 more signings before the end of next week I see no reason why we can't be competitive

exactly! seems more postive than most years, so far. 1 bad game doesnt mean lessons havent been learnt. if we are producing the same shit after 10 games say then fair enough, same shit different season. So far for its no panic yet IMO. but i am sure i will get gunned down for this.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

well i've no issue with the players we have signed, cazorla especially is for me an inspired bit of business and it's only a shame we weren't shelling out for finished products like him in the past.......but i can't help but feel we only bought him because of Malaga's dire financial circumstance......not that I care about feeding off the misery of other clubs i'm not a high minded moralist with football. But just think we are still not prepared to spend that 20m plus on a player even if we felt that would be the difference between us winning the title and not, and we know it's not cos we couldn't afford it.

[LDG]

I think many frustrations are built on the silence which comes out of the club.

The clubs inability to appease media-whores, but also the clubs inability to associate itself with the normal fan.

Arsenal have always conducted things privately, and rightly so, but in a world that is driven by gossip/pundits/24hr football if things aren't done now, the club has fucked up.

If we knew that the club were honestly planning in the right direction it would help....though, it doesn't bother me, as I think aspects of what we do on the pitch show we are moving in the right direction.

Fans just have to accept that we'll never know the full story, we'll never know why things are as they are. From pure football, to finance and business....we will never know. And that frustrates people who are so used to "knowing" everything the media chucks at them 24/7.

Fuck it. I could go on.

But I won't.

If we won the league, none of this would matter in the slightest.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The thing is I don't think the club does conduct it's business well....not any more...not since Dein and Edelman left

Gazidis is a complete cretin, only a moron would try and tap up a phone company for sponsorship negotiations without doing any research and then discovering to your horror that said company is owned by the man who owns almost 30% of the club and whom so far you have refused any sort of dialogue with.

Then there is the fact that Wenger desperately needs to be reigned in, he's performing far too many tasks for the club and in many cases he is performing those tasks badly......he has completely fucked the wage bill, he refuses any sort of advice or differing opinion as to how to go about things with the squad and has made a complete cock up of our transfer/contract negotiations.

He's a good manager i think still, but he's not a lawyer or litigator and he's not a businessman.....so he needs to take a big fucking step back and the fact that the club allow him to perform all these tasks and essentially employ his own boss....shows that things aren't being run well at all.

[Letters]

I didn't think the reaction was that excessive on Saturday. Heard a bit of booing but nothing more than a bit of frustration/disappointment.
And I don't think the mood is that downbeat in general.
The gereral mood seems to be that we've made good signings, accept they'll need some time to gel and that we have the makings of a pretty decent side.

We have been spoilt by Wenger's glory years but 7 years without a trophy is too long for a club our our stature (it has to be acknowledged that Wenger has made us a club of this stature, we were a 'big club' before Wenger came along but he has raised our level and expectations have raised accordingly)

It is harder to win trophies these days. The billionaire-fueled clubs are very difficult to compete with (and yes yes, Fergie manages it but he's probably the best manager of all time, Wenger's no bumbling idiot but he ain't Fergie). And the stadium move, while long term a good thing for the club has in the short term, combined with poor commercial deals, restricted us somewhat. Although we have, IMO, been too cautious and that has made our lives harder than it needed be. The benefits of that may yet to be seen.

Wenger has done brilliantly to keep us top 4 IMO in an era where so many clubs are throwing such silly money around. But we've been in a few positions in the last 7 years when we could and should have won trophies and we've failed to. That is where he has failed and any other club at our level would have sacked a manager after this long.

Fairly upbeat about this season. Don't think we'll win a trophy but at least we've signed some proper quality and while I don't think we'll win a trophy i fancy us for a top 4 finish again.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think we as fans were for a number of years content to see a team develop. But a team never develops. Two or three players may develop at any one time, but once they do, they're off. This has now become a perennial problem and I see no way out of this vicious circle. How many more transitions can we endure? How many more times can we compare squads three years apart only to note that the teams bear few resemblances?

It is not unrealistic now to look at what has gone on and come to the realisation that it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon or even in the intermediate term. If we don't prioritise any of the minor cups or if we dismiss them as we have been doing, we are not going to win anything this season and that simply will add to the clamour for anyone who does have a good season to be off or cashed in on.

[Letters]

I think we as fans were for a number of years content to see a team develop. But a team never develops. Two or three players may develop at any one time, but once they do, they're off. This has now become a perennial problem and I see no way out of this vicious circle. How many more transitions can we endure? How many more times can we compare squads three years apart only to note that the teams bear few resemblances?

It is not unrealistic now to look at what has gone on and come to the realisation that it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon or even in the intermediate term. If we don't prioritise any of the minor cups or if we dismiss them as we have been doing, we are not going to win anything this season and that simply will add to the clamour for anyone who does have a good season to be off or cashed in on.
Yes, I think that's the main frustration. The feeling of 'nearly, but not quite' being ready to challenge and that we just need one or two players to push us on...but instead we lose one or two key players and have to rebuild again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think we as fans were for a number of years content to see a team develop. But a team never develops. Two or three players may develop at any one time, but once they do, they're off. This has now become a perennial problem and I see no way out of this vicious circle. How many more transitions can we endure? How many more times can we compare squads three years apart only to note that the teams bear few resemblances?

It is not unrealistic now to look at what has gone on and come to the realisation that it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon or even in the intermediate term. If we don't prioritise any of the minor cups or if we dismiss them as we have been doing, we are not going to win anything this season and that simply will add to the clamour for anyone who does have a good season to be off or cashed in on.

Spot on GB, its that Frustation of Being the so close team.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We have been spoiled, though I don't know if I've moaned that much.

I get pissed off more with football in general than I do with club specifics (though many of those sickening things happening in football are prevelent at our club).

Still think Aw is a genius for delivering without spending anything, and I'm genuinely excited about the season ahead, and the new signings. I think we're a stronger side than we were last year.

If we didn't hear so much guff in the media, I'm pretty sure 50% of the disatisfied fans would be of the same opinion.

This i think because of the media and tauting from other fans makes our fans even more pissed off.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I didn't think the reaction was that excessive on Saturday. Heard a bit of booing but nothing more than a bit of frustration/disappointment.
And I don't think the mood is that downbeat in general.
The gereral mood seems to be that we've made good signings, accept they'll need some time to gel and that we have the makings of a pretty decent side.

We have been spoilt by Wenger's glory years but 7 years without a trophy is too long for a club our our stature (it has to be acknowledged that Wenger has made us a club of this stature, we were a 'big club' before Wenger came along but he has raised our level and expectations have raised accordingly)

It is harder to win trophies these days. The billionaire-fueled clubs are very difficult to compete with (and yes yes, Fergie manages it but he's probably the best manager of all time, Wenger's no bumbling idiot but he ain't Fergie). And the stadium move, while long term a good thing for the club has in the short term, combined with poor commercial deals, restricted us somewhat. Although we have, IMO, been too cautious and that has made our lives harder than it needed be. The benefits of that may yet to be seen.

Wenger has done brilliantly to keep us top 4 IMO in an era where so many clubs are throwing such silly money around. But we've been in a few positions in the last 7 years when we could and should have won trophies and we've failed to. That is where he has failed and any other club at our level would have sacked a manager after this long.

Fairly upbeat about this season. Don't think we'll win a trophy but at least we've signed some proper quality and while I don't think we'll win a trophy i fancy us for a top 4 finish again.

Top post Letters again.


The thing is I don't think the club does conduct it's business well....not any more...not since Dein and Edelman left

Gazidis is a complete cretin, only a moron would try and tap up a phone company for sponsorship negotiations without doing any research and then discovering to your horror that said company is owned by the man who owns almost 30% of the club and whom so far you have refused any sort of dialogue with.

Then there is the fact that Wenger desperately needs to be reigned in, he's performing far too many tasks for the club and in many cases he is performing those tasks badly......he has completely fucked the wage bill, he refuses any sort of advice or differing opinion as to how to go about things with the squad and has made a complete cock up of our transfer/contract negotiations.

He's a good manager i think still, but he's not a lawyer or litigator and he's not a businessman.....so he needs to take a big fucking step back and the fact that the club allow him to perform all these tasks and essentially employ his own boss....shows that things aren't being run well at all.

This.

The reaction after the first game was justified.

It might have been the first game of the season but to us, it felt like just another game of the previous 3 seasons where nothing had been learned and we lacked any ideas on how to break teams down.

We bought in 3 players which of course raised the excitement level and rightly so cos Wenger buying 3 ready made players is literally unheard of these days but then we go and sell 2 of our star players so right back to square one.

Seeing the same shit, same mistakes same everything being made season in and season out can make anyone pull their hair out. 7 years we have not developed, what makes people think we will this season? We have not improved at all the last 7 years. Sure the first 2/3 years, we were content with top 4 as we settled in to the new stadium and a new era but then we expected the club to push on and once again become challengers for the main trophies cos as i said, if we keep challenging for the league then eventually we will win it but unfortunately the board and Wenger are quite content with settling for top 4 and the level we are at atm and takes no risk of trying to challenge. I thought he was taking a risk by bringing in players this summer but we have pretty much made back what we spent with the sales of RVP and Song so we havent moved on at all imo

Add the fact we play shit football, pay the most of any fans in the country to see this shit football and you can see why fans are the way they are.

Not much wrong with the fans, plenty wrong with the top brass at the club

We played one game this season and it was hardly shit football unless your on about the last 7 years then id have to say our football had hardly been shit more entertaining.

you can see why fans are the way they are And how are the fans exactly. not alll are angry and upset ans you seem to suggest.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I think we as fans were for a number of years content to see a team develop. But a team never develops. Two or three players may develop at any one time, but once they do, they're off. This has now become a perennial problem and I see no way out of this vicious circle. How many more transitions can we endure? How many more times can we compare squads three years apart only to note that the teams bear few resemblances?

It is not unrealistic now to look at what has gone on and come to the realisation that it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon or even in the intermediate term. If we don't prioritise any of the minor cups or if we dismiss them as we have been doing, we are not going to win anything this season and that simply will add to the clamour for anyone who does have a good season to be off or cashed in on.

another top post.

[gooners]

Let's be clear here:

We are OWNED by TWO bilionaires - FOREIGN ones at that!

The difference between us city/chelsea is that their owners don't see the clubs as pure investment entities. It's their money, it's their choice.

It is also Kroenke's choice to run AFC like Tescos/Debenhams etc.


EDIT: forgot to add.......simples!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Let's be clear here:

We are OWNED by TWO bilionaires - FOREIGN ones at that!

The difference between us city/chelsea is that their owners don't see the clubs as pure investment entities. It's their money, it's their choice.

It is also Kroenke's choice to run AFC like Tescos/Debenhams etc.


EDIT: forgot to add.......simples!

None of then own the club unlike City or Chavs. But i agree our two biggest shareholders are in it for themselves.

It may be "Kroenke's choice to run AFC like Tescos/Debenhams etc." Just like its our fans Choice to keep Renewing Season tickets, going to games and letting our board get away with it.

[Cripps_orig]

Top post Letters again.

We played one game this season and it was hardly shit football unless your on about the last 7 years then id have to say our football had hardly been shit more entertaining.

you can see why fans are the way they are And how are the fans exactly. not alll are angry and upset ans you seem to suggest.

Anyone who watched the game and i watched it all as i was there and not on a stream which froze every few seconds would see we played shit football v Sunderland. We've had so many of these type of games over the years and yet we continue doing the same thing over and over again. Even when Giroud came on, we didnt cross the ball in. We are so easy to defend against most of the time.

Fans are frustrated. They know for a team that can finish top 4 season in and season out and getting all that CL money and yet still not doing all we can to win a trophy is bloody piss taking from the club

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Anyone who watched the game and i watched it all as i was there and not on a stream which froze every few seconds would see we played shit football v Sunderland. We've had so many of these type of games over the years and yet we continue doing the same thing over and over again. Even when Giroud came on, we didnt cross the ball in. We are so easy to defend against most of the time.

Fans are frustrated. They know for a team that can finish top 4 season in and season out and getting all that CL money and yet still not doing all we can to win a trophy is bloody piss taking from the club

Then Fans should not sit there and accept it simples. You either do something about it or STFU and support the team.

PS anyone expecting us to be world beaters and not as we were against Sunderland were deluding themselves.

We lost to of our big players from last season a day before the season started it was never going to be plain sailling or a good game.

problem being with Fans being frustated if its less then half the majoity the board/AW won't care.

[Cripps_orig]

What do you expect the fans to do?

Kidnap Wengers girlfriend and hold her hostage til he does whats right? :rolleyes:

I expected us to play like we gave a fuck v Sunderland be the result win, draw or loss

We didnt

[fakeyank]

None of then own the club unlike City or Chavs. But i agree our two biggest shareholders are in it for themselves.

It may be "Kroenke's choice to run AFC like Tescos/Debenhams etc." Just like its our fans Choice to keep Renewing Season tickets, going to games and letting our board get away with it.

Glazers are worse than Kroenke and Usmanov put together yet Utd seem to winning everything left right and center. Ever wonder why?

- First, coz Fergie has one job and one job only- Managing the football side of things. He is not appointing his boss, negotiating contracts, setting up the design of the dressing rooms etc
- Second, coz Fergie is not a mouthpiece of the board. I bet you that if even for one day Glazers tell him that he is not going to get necessary funds to strengthen the team, he will quit the job. He is a winner and wont be happy just collecting his 6 million quid pay check every year. Unfortunately our manager seems happy stuffing his pockets and running a good business.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What do you expect the fans to do?

Kidnap Wengers girlfriend and hold her hostage til he does whats right? :rolleyes:

I expected us to play like we gave a fuck v Sunderland be the result win, draw or loss

We didnt


Their is a lot fans can do like stop renwing season tickets, stop showing up for games etc. But our fans won't thats tthe proble we just sit there and take it, & fucking years of this shit and we just take it pathetic really.

Mean got rid of my red member ship told the club what i thought about them and how they run things, wish more fans would do this too.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Glazers are worse than Kroenke and Usmanov put together yet Utd seem to winning everything left right and center. Ever wonder why?

- First, coz Fergie has one job and one job only- Managing the football side of things. He is not appointing his boss, negotiating contracts, setting up the design of the dressing rooms etc
- Second, coz Fergie is not a mouthpiece of the board. I bet you that if even for one day Glazers tell him that he is not going to get necessary funds to strengthen the team, he will quit the job. He is a winner and wont be happy just collecting his 6 million quid pay check every year. Unfortunately our manager seems happy stuffing his pockets and running a good business.

Don't disagree, never mentiond the glazers or said they were not worse :confused:

[Letters]

We are OWNED by TWO bilionaires - FOREIGN ones at that!

The difference between us city/chelsea is that their owners don't see the clubs as pure investment entities.
No. They see the clubs as very expensive play-things. They pump enough money in to rack up a few trophies, which everyone knows the club would never have achieved otherwise, and then they brag to all their billionaire friends about their 'achievements'. Hurrah.

Screw that. I want Arsenal to be a success but not like that. It completely taints any trophies we may 'win' and if the billionaires in question get bored and decide to call in their debts...good luck with that.

[fakeyank]

Don't disagree, never mentiond the glazers or said they were not worse :confused:

What I wanted to say was that you only mention City and Chelsea as having owners who are just pumping money while you show Kroenke/Usmanov as money making leeches. Though it seems true, it is the same case with Utd as well. Difference is the manager and that is why we are fighting for 4th place and why Utd are champions. You can only hide that much long under the shadow of 'our owners are fucking us'... owners are businessmen and are money minded by nature. We unfortunately have a manager who agrees and is a mouthpiece of the board.

[Kano]

Didn't think the thread was OT, but your are entitled to your opinion mate. Seems to me that it's come to the point though that short of us a) risking the club's stability by joining the £200k pw club, or b) signing a super marquee player, there are Gooners who are now almost permanently disenchanted with their club.

that also stems from the frustration of not seeing the club give its all to build upon any potential in the team, where we have seen too many chances in the cup competitions wasted. if we weren't constantly rebuilding the team and giving the cups parity like other clubs have done in recent years and still not moving on, then at least things would become a lot clearer. with all the murkiness off the field with our ownership, fan favourites moving on every season and the sense of wasted opportunities, it is hard to see a change when the current pattern seems so familiar.

us football fans are very basic with our desires in the game and even during the darkest of times it is hope that keeps you coming back, as you never know what might change....

and so what is so damaging at the moment is because of all the reasons i mentioned above, any hope of realistically winning the title or even a cup - which really should be achievable every season for a club our size - are very faint. starting the season pretty much knowing you are going to finish 3/4/5 is ok but a bit of a flatline for fans of a big club to get excited about. if it was for a season or two, then fine but if feels like this is it for the foreseeable future. i don't think that is being particularly spoilt because everyone follows a club with an expectation of what they want back from giving their support. our belief that we are a big club that should be giving its all for honours is built not only on what we see during our time supporting but also the history books.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What I wanted to say was that you only mention City and Chelsea as having owners who are just pumping money while you show Kroenke/Usmanov as money making leeches. Though it seems true, it is the same case with Utd as well. Difference is the manager and that is why we are fighting for 4th place and why Utd are champions. You can only hide that much long under the shadow of 'our owners are fucking us'... owners are businessmen and are money minded by nature. We unfortunately have a manager who agrees and is a mouthpiece of the board.

Never said that, i said they Own their clubs were as ours don't we don't have an Owner was the point i was making. While it seems Wenger is a yes man for the board only he can really tell us why he does the things he does maybe its because they pay him that would be my guess.

Again im agree with you, my views on Wenger have changed since i left the board.

[gooners]

No. They see the clubs as very expensive play-things. They pump enough money in to rack up a few trophies, which everyone knows the club would never have achieved otherwise, and then they brag to all their billionaire friends about their 'achievements'. Hurrah.

Screw that. I want Arsenal to be a success but not like that. It completely taints any trophies we may 'win' and if the billionaires in question get bored and decide to call in their debts...good luck with that.

Once again we are owned by billionaires not a charity.

It used to be 'we don't want that, will destroy the tradition of the club'. Now it is whether or not "They see the clubs as very expensive play-things" or run the club like Sainsburys. :rolleyes:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Once again we are owned by billionaires not a charity.

It used to be 'we don't want that, will destroy the tradition of the club'. Now it is whether or not "They see the clubs as very expensive play-things" or run the club like Sainsburys. :rolleyes:

as said before, you cant operate a fucking buisness when you spend 117% of your entire annual turnover on fucking wages. from when the arab owners took over city, they ahve spent close to a billion if not more including entire costs etc in about 4/5 years to win the league. A FUCKING BILLION QUID TO BUY THE LEAGUE. thats not sport, thats look at me i have a bigger penis extension then you

[Letters]

Once again we are owned by billionaires not a charity.
Yes, but we're not reliant on them.

[LDG]

Once again we are owned by billionaires not a charity.

It used to be 'we don't want that, will destroy the tradition of the club'. Now it is whether or not "They see the clubs as very expensive play-things" or run the club like Sainsburys. :rolleyes:

I can't fucking wait for one of these fucking petro-clubs to go bang.

I'm gonna laugh my fucking cock off.

[GP]

Anyone who's actually advocating the way Chelsea and City are run is an utter, utter cocktard.

[LDG]

Anyone who's actually advocating the way Chelsea and City are run is an utter, utter cocktard.

Oh I think you'll find that everyone finds it "wrong". But we should still spend beyond our means anyway, because *stomps feet*

Yes, there are people who will say that our board are milking this, that or the other. But they clearly have no fuckin idea. The money which they will earn out of the club is based on share sale, not the profit on transfers. NOBODY could really avoid the slightly hostile takeover by Kronke...purely because everyone, Arsenal fans included, sold the **** their shares. Same goes for that russian mob (thanks David, you ****). In fact, we don't operate as a massive profit making organisation. Simple maths can tell you that we don't earn billions out of selling shirts and seats and pies.

What we do have in surplus cash (to an extent) is reinvested. But it has to be done sensibly, because you don't know what is round the corner, and the assumptions of what cash we actually have to spend is also dependent on many other variables, and fixed outgoings. Despite which, people have to remember that profit doesn't equate to cash.

The problem we have as a club has been the way we have been run, to an extent. It's the way in which we have negotiated our sponsorship deals etc, and the way we market ourselves. We clearly fucked up with the wages we pay (though I can see the logic behind it).

The people that claim we should be spending to keep up with City et al, are completely deluded. Yet they are the same people who say we should be sacking Wenger, when it's pretty obvious he's kept us in the top four clubs in England without spending.

Yes, we can spend a bit more, and hopefully we will. But these fuckin numpties who roll eyes and act all billy big spuds are utter fucktards.

Just focus on the football, because most people, me included, haven't got the foggiest how we run ourselves as a business. But one thing is for sure, in the most part, we're run so that we're not indebted to some tosser who can fuck off whenever he feels like it. If Kronke goes, the clubs still survives as normal. If dirty arab **** goes from city (without leaving massive presents) they're fucked.

I should say, however, that I'm sure we have enough cash to be investing a bit more. And that is the frustrating part...waiting for Arsene to deal is like pulling your teeth out.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

If Malaga isn't a warning against it, I'm not sure what is.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Anyone who's actually advocating the way Chelsea and City are run is an utter, utter cocktard.
This.

Once again we are owned by billionaires not a charity.

It used to be 'we don't want that, will destroy the tradition of the club'. Now it is whether or not "They see the clubs as very expensive play-things" or run the club like Sainsburys. :rolleyes:

No we are not, not sure why you keep saying this, none of those guys OWN the club.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

as said before, you cant operate a fucking buisness when you spend 117% of your entire annual turnover on fucking wages. from when the arab owners took over city, they ahve spent close to a billion if not more including entire costs etc in about 4/5 years to win the league. A FUCKING BILLION QUID TO BUY THE LEAGUE. thats not sport, thats look at me i have a bigger penis extension then you

i think you make an excellent point.

it's not sport anymore, it's all about money. our beautiful game has disintegrated beneath our very own eyes.

[LDG]

No we are not, not sure why you keep saying this, none of those guys OWN the club.

*whispers* yes they do, Charlie.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

*whispers* yes they do, Charlie.

When i say Own i mean in a Roman way, as he Owns the club, where as i see ours as the 2 biggest shareholders. If One bought out all the shares then id say he owned the club etc.

[Power n Glory]

I think most people realise that there is a clear mismanagement of funds at Arsenal. Nobody is suggesting we compete with the oil money clubs. But most people by now understand that we pay far too much to average players and not enough to our first team key players. It's possible to pay a few star playere massive wages, just trim the wages of guys like Djourou and Chamakh and stop hiking up the wages for kids based on potential.

[Joker]

I think most people realise that there is a clear mismanagement of funds at Arsenal. Nobody is suggesting we compete with the oil money clubs. But most people by now understand that we pay far too much to average players and not enough to our first team key players. It's possible to pay a few star playere massive wages, just trim the wages of guys like Djourou and Chamakh and stop hiking up the wages for kids based on potential.

Yes, it's about making fuller use of our resources. How about not making a profit in every transfer window, and actually spend more than we earn through sales just once? That way, we can replenish the squad rather than purely replacing departing players, and we may give ourselves a decent chance of lifting some silverware. That could galvanise the club in a very positive way.

But no, as we have seen with the Sahin non signing, we are so obsessed with the business side of things, and on minimising costs, and are willing to damage our chances of silverware just to save a few million pounds.

I do think if Kroenke was actually an Arab, he'd get a lot more stick tbh. You see how often the ethnicity of Man City's owners are brought up, which suggests there is some prejudice there as well.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, it's about making fuller use of our resources. How about not making a profit in every transfer window, and actually spend more than we earn through sales just once? That way, we can replenish the squad rather than purely replacing departing players, and we may give ourselves a decent chance of lifting some silverware. That could galvanise the club in a very positive way.

But no, as we have seen with the Sahin non signing, we are so obsessed with the business side of things, and on minimising costs, and are willing to damage our chances of silverware just to save a few million pounds.

I do think if Kroenke was actually an Arab, he'd get a lot more stick tbh. You see how often the ethnicity of Man City's owners are brought up, which suggests there is some prejudice there as well.

Rubbis Tony Fernadez is not white he does not get much stick, not sure what Colour has to do with anything.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour are not of the same ethnicity.

[Joker]

Rubbis Tony Fernadez is not white he does not get much stick, not sure what Colour has to do with anything.

Then why do we see "Arab" being used if it's a pejorative? And I didn't say this had anything to do with "White vs Black", just that there is IMO a lot of latent prejudice against Arabs in particular which explains the hatred directed towards their owners. I mean, some people act as if they're evil, even though all they've done is buy a football club and tried to make them successful through legal means.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Then why do we see "Arab" being used if it's a pejorative? And I didn't say this had anything to do with "White vs Black", just that there is IMO a lot of latent prejudice against Arabs in particular which explains the hatred directed towards their owners. I mean, some people act as if they're evil, even though all they've done is buy a football club and tried to make them successful through legal means.

Because thats what they are Arabs. Never said you said it had anything to do with black and white, but racism or prejudice is more then just Black vs White.

[Joker]

Because thats what they are Arabs. Never said you said it had anything to do with black and white, but racism or prejudice is more then just Black vs White.

Yes, but when sentiment like "fucking Arabs" is expressed, are you saying Arabs is used simply as a descriptive term? I doubt it somehow.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, but when sentiment like "fucking Arabs" is expressed, are you saying Arabs is used simply as a descriptive term? I doubt it somehow.

Not saying it is but i don;t think it is used to abuse the City Owners either.

[gooners]

Yes, but we're not reliant on them.

Yes we are. If they decide they dont want anything to do with football anymore and decide to flog their share to whomever wants to buy --- we will also be fucked. Kroenke owes it to no one but himself to recoup recoup whatever money he can if desperation calls for it. We are not owned by a trust!

And as for chelsea/city, let me repeat NO ONE will buy those clubs should the owners attach any money ALL the money pumped into the clubs as debts. They know that. They are not stupid. It is their own money --- it is afc that is operating on loans.

Do i give a fuck that a rich owner of a club is putting their own money into their club? No. If they are not breaking any rules. Do i give a fuck that phw and co conveniently increased their share values and then flogged it off to make a tidy sum? Yes i fucking do.

We dont want their sorts. Is that fucking rigjht?

[Letters]

Yes we are.
No we're not.


If they decide they dont want anything to do with football anymore and decide to flog their share to whomever wants to buy --- we will also be fucked
Why would we be? They haven't loaned us hundreds of millions of pounds which we couldn't begin to repay if they decided to call in the debt.


Do i give a fuck that a rich owner of a club is putting their own money into their club? No. If they are not breaking any rules.
They are if financial fair play has any bite (which, sad to say, I doubt it will). If you want to see a club succeed by throwing enough money around until you blunder your way to the top then go support City. You'd have to be pretty thick to not be able to see the difference between their success and genuine achievement, but then most football fans are pretty thick.

[Kano]

You'd have to be pretty thick to not be able to see the difference between their success and genuine achievement, but then most football fans are pretty thick.
and most players would disagree with that

[LDG]

and most players would disagree with that

:lol:

[Cripps_orig]

I'm with you on the one step forwards two steps back - and the frustration that that causes - but firstly would that have been quite the case without Citeh and Chelsea's presence, secondly could the cub really have done anything about our terminal to leave players and their agents, and lastly, is it ally really fair to level the same accusation against the club this season, when it seems as though therre has been more of a fundamental change in our approach?

Yes it would have been frustrating even without City or Chelseas presence cos they arent the ones who have cost us trophies over the years. Its our own ineptness. Surely we should have managed a trophy or 2. If the likes of Spuds, Pompey, Liverpool and of course Birmingham can win a trophy or 2 since the time we last won one then there really is no excuse.

Players come and players go. Part and parcel of football. What we have failed to do is not replace quality with quality. We replaced quality with youth project and it fucked up big time

I dont see any change. I thought i did with the 3 signing but it was too good to be true and we have got rid of 2 star players since and the Sunderland horror show didnt show a change in footballing style either.

[Boss]

These kinds of threads are silly as people always start debating extremes, assuming that people who want us to spend want us to spend like Citeh or Chelsea do. Don't think any apart from one or two want that, most people want us to start actually investing in the team, adding to it instead of replacing.

This summer so far we've seen Van Persie and Song leave and Cazorla, Podolski and Giroud come in. After that you can stay we're roughly the same in terms of quality, given that the new three will take some time to bed in and VP was a far better striker than either of the players we brought in. Our transfer spending has so far seen roughly 41M come in (22M VP, 15M Song, 4M Vela) and 39M go out (11M Podolski, 13M Giroud, 15M Cazorla). For once we'd like the club to invest a reasonable amount in players, say 15M or so, something we haven't done since 2007-08 (coincidentally our strongest league challenge in the last few years) and 2003-04 (Invincibles). It has been a neutral summer so far but we need to add players if we want to actually win something, and I don't think people asking for that really want us to splurge in the Citeh mould and shouldn't be slated for asking for more.

[Power n Glory]

These kinds of threads are silly as people always start debating extremes, assuming that people who want us to spend want us to spend like Citeh or Chelsea do. Don't think any apart from one or two want that, most people want us to start actually investing in the team, adding to it instead of replacing.

This summer so far we've seen Van Persie and Song leave and Cazorla, Podolski and Giroud come in. After that you can stay we're roughly the same in terms of quality, given that the new three will take some time to bed in and VP was a far better striker than either of the players we brought in. Our transfer spending has so far seen roughly 41M come in (22M VP, 15M Song, 4M Vela) and 39M go out (11M Podolski, 13M Giroud, 15M Cazorla). For once we'd like the club to invest a reasonable amount in players, say 15M or so, something we haven't done since 2007-08 (coincidentally our strongest league challenge in the last few years) and 2003-04 (Invincibles). It has been a neutral summer so far but we need to add players if we want to actually win something, and I don't think people asking for that really want us to splurge in the Citeh mould and shouldn't be slated for asking for more.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

No we're not.


Why would we be? They haven't loaned us hundreds of millions of pounds which we couldn't begin to repay if they decided to call in the debt.


They are if financial fair play has any bite (which, sad to say, I doubt it will). If you want to see a club succeed by throwing enough money around until you blunder your way to the top then go support City. You'd have to be pretty thick to not be able to see the difference between their success and genuine achievement, but then most football fans are pretty thick.

Most of those fans have spent years paying for season tickets and have never seen their team lift a major trophy. They're allowed a little joy. They know the money has bought success, I don't think they're deluded and I think you're off the mark to of a 'genuine achievement' when talking about football. Speaking of thick fans, I think it's thick to continue pouring money into a club season after season while two billionaire owners sit on the Board and won't even put their own money into the club.

[gooners]

No. Being thick would be saying that a british olympian should feel less proud about their gold because their ugandan counterpart did not have the same training resources to enable them to gain similar competitive proficiency. You will have a point if the former was caught doping though.

[Letters]

and most players would disagree with that
Yes, they're noted for their brains aren't they?

[Kano]

they are definitely noted for having a far better clue than any of us when it comes to winning a trophy and what that involves.

but you say its tainted from your seat in the stand, so it must be true.

[Letters]

No. Being thick would be saying that a british olympian should feel less proud about their gold because their ugandan counterpart did not have the same training resources to enable them to gain similar competitive proficiency.That's a shit comparison and you know it.

Bolt and Blake aren't the fastest because they have the best facilities. Clearly in some sports that helps but TeamGB can't, however much money they spend on training, make someone faster than those two. If TeamGB could 'buy' them for 100m each then should we then crow and be proud of our 'achievement' of a gold medal? It's not an achievement, we just bought the best people around to guarantee us of success.

Football isn't exactly the same of course but the billionaires have cherry picked the best players from around the world to make their teams and squads stronger than anyone else's. Players that their clubs couldn't afford otherwise. No surprise that those teams achieve success. They can get all the best players and, more disturbingly, they can buy players they don't really need and stick them on their bench or loan them out to other clubs who aren't their direct rivals to stop competitors getting closer to them.

[Letters]

but you say its tainted from your seat in the stand, so it must be true.If we spent half a billion quid and won the league then, for me, that 'achievement' would be tainted. So yes, for me it's true.

If you're too stupid to see the difference between winning it that way and winning by building a team from young players, supplemented by the odd more established player bought from our own income then fair enough.

[Kano]

same applies i guess. if you are thick enough to believe that players running hundreds of miles every season, working their nuts off to win games, would look at their trophy as tainted, then you really and truly have not got a clue.

[Niall_Quinn]

No - not like that. I mean that a combination of petro dollars and 7 trophy less years seems to have turned many of us into bitter, perennially alienated fans.

This is no Wenger apologist thread, but it amazes me the comments I've seen on here and elsewhere about our team and club. The fact that we a written off after a single game where we failed to win against a team that will grind out many bore draws this season against decent opposition. Slagging off of players who have played a single competitive match together.

I asked recently whether it is Wenger who has become stale or whether it is us? The attitude that has been shown by many Gooners so far this season would suggest it is firmly the latter. Does slipping off your perch make every fan feel like this? I'd love to hear from some older Liverpool, Spurs or Villa fans, because it's difficult to imagine more of a negative outlook at the beginning of a season. Sure, we are unlikely to win the league, yes we have lost one player we admired, and another who IMO is Adebayor-lite. But Wenger seems to be trying to deliver something different at least.

Have we honestly forgotten to enjoy seeing a team develop? Do our new signings not deserve a little faith? Are we not even half excited about seeing perhaps a different style of football once new players bed in. Or have we become so jaded by our club's failure to spend petro-dollar style that we only watch Arsenal to see us fail?

It's because the club is being run by rapists. And whores are wearing the shirt. There's nothing left to connect to. It has nothing to do with whether we win trophies or not, at least not for me. Went many years without a trophy and loved it all. But now the football is crushingly boring, it's not worth the money being asked - it's not worth anything at all. Because the owners and the players are here to milk the club dry it seems stupid to be mindlessly loyal - fuck them, I'm not a total mug. The club is dead. Whether it can be resuscitated once the horrible ****s that infest the game have stripped everything bare and left the carcass to rot, I don't know. I hope so.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, I think that's the main frustration. The feeling of 'nearly, but not quite' being ready to challenge and that we just need one or two players to push us on...but instead we lose one or two key players and have to rebuild again.

Not for me. The main frustration is not being able to watch decent football. I can't bear to watch them any more because I know before kick off the type of abject shit that will be on display. Enough already. Not just Arsenal of course, almost every team plays total shit these days. No pace in the game, no direct play (skilful direct play, not Stoke hoof-a-ball). Horrible stuff. Not worth watching.

[Niall_Quinn]

What do you expect the fans to do?

Kidnap Wengers girlfriend and hold her hostage til he does whats right? :rolleyes:

I expected us to play like we gave a fuck v Sunderland be the result win, draw or loss

We didnt

You've identified one of the main problem - the players don't give a fuck. No incentive. Life's way too easy. Money for old rope, week in, week out. You can see it in the way they play. Apart from Koscielny, for some reason that poor sap seems to give a shit. Maybe he's afflicted with personal integrity. The rest are all mouth and no action. Their main game is on Twitter, they're a fucking embarrassment on the pitch.

[AKBapologist]

gooners has a point tbh.

At any moment, Kronke could sell out, shortly after draining however much he wanted from the clubs coffers.


And they all talk a load of bullshit re: we can't pay down debt early. Any idiot knows that interest in savings is many times less than the interest on debt regardless of what retarded penalty clauses or inflation adjustments to sign up to.

[LDG]

Ah fuck off the lotta ya!!

Come on The Arsenal! :scarf:

[gooners]

same applies i guess. if you are thick enough to believe that players running hundreds of miles every season, working their nuts off to win games, would look at their trophy as tainted, then you really and truly have not got a clue.

:gp:

[Letters]

same applies i guess. if you are thick enough to believe that players running hundreds of miles every season, working their nuts off to win games, would look at their trophy as tainted, then you really and truly have not got a clue.Why would I care how the players feel? I'm not one.
I'm telling you how I feel. :good:

[Kano]

no shit sherlock, i thought it was someone else.

i've seen you write the same elsewhere, something about rvp being smart enough to realise that winning trophies at somewhere like city would be tainted.

see. you do care after all.

[GP]

If we spent half a billion quid and won the league then, for me, that 'achievement' would be tainted. So yes, for me it's true.

If you're too stupid to see the difference between winning it that way and winning by building a team from young players, supplemented by the odd more established player bought from our own income then fair enough.

:gp:

100% correct.

[Letters]

i've seen you write the same elsewhere, something about rvp being smart enough to realise that winning trophies at somewhere like city would be tainted.
Yes. And he didn't go there.

Most players aren't anywhere near that bright.

[GP]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m67l5tzO591rq0t39.gif

[Kano]

Yes. And he didn't go there.

Most players aren't anywhere near that bright.

in your earlier reply you were trying to distinguish between your perspective as a fan, saying why should you care about a players perception of the game. the example i pulled up, shows that you do in fact care.

intelligence has nothing to do with it. if you think that, then you are a complete snob.

the basic ideal is, for your hardwork, you get a reward. that's how players feel. that's how we all should feel in general. players and fans see quite a few things differently and more fans need to wake up to that. those at chelsea and man city are not wrong or stupid to believe that collecting their end of season trophy hasn't been cheapened, after grafting for it.

they are still massive, horrible ****s of course but they deserve what they earn.

[Letters]

The players work hard for their trophies and I can see they'd get a sense of satisfaction from the achievement.
The PL is a bloody hard league to win.
And I do understand that fans so starved of success - especially City who have had to spend the last 20 years watching Utd sweep all before them - would take delight in not only winning the big prize but doing so at the expense of their rivals.

But the money does taint their achievements. I do know Chelsea fans who fully recognise that they wouldn't be where they are were it not for Abramovic's money and it does affect the way they view the club's recent success. If we took the same approach then, for me, it would taint our achievements.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Ah fuck off the lotta ya!!

Come on The Arsenal! :scarf:

:gp: best post in here tbh.

[Power n Glory]

The players work hard for their trophies and I can see they'd get a sense of satisfaction from the achievement.
The PL is a bloody hard league to win.
And I do understand that fans so starved of success - especially City who have had to spend the last 20 years watching Utd sweep all before them - would take delight in not only winning the big prize but doing so at the expense of their rivals.

But the money does taint their achievements. I do know Chelsea fans who fully recognise that they wouldn't be where they are were it not for Abramovic's money and it does affect the way they view the club's recent success. If we took the same approach then, for me, it would taint our achievements.

All this talk of rival clubs and their riches is a distraction. We have a serious test away against Stoke today. Our lack of success has very little to do with the oil baron clubs, it's to do with these sort of games.

[Letters]

All this talk of rival clubs and their riches is a distraction. We have a serious test away against Stoke today. Our lack of success has very little to do with the oil baron clubs, it's to do with these sort of games.
The uber-rich clubs has definitely been a factor but I'd agree it's not the only one.
We could certainly have done a lot more to be more competitive and pushed them harder.

[Kano]

But the money does taint their achievements. I do know Chelsea fans who fully recognise that they wouldn't be where they are were it not for Abramovic's money and it does affect the way they view the club's recent success. If we took the same approach then, for me, it would taint our achievements.
exactly. from a fans perspective. what we and players think differ and they would say you are in the wrong.

[Joker]

gooners has a point tbh.

At any moment, Kronke could sell out, shortly after draining however much he wanted from the clubs coffers.


And they all talk a load of bullshit re: we can't pay down debt early. Any idiot knows that interest in savings is many times less than the interest on debt regardless of what retarded penalty clauses or inflation adjustments to sign up to.

Don't often agree with you but :gp:

[AKBapologist]

This club are a Fucking disgrace. Why can spurs replace modric in 5 minutes but it takes us 2 years to replace fabregas.

I was hopeful but now I'm convinced were run by Muppets.

sent from a fone

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This club are a Fucking disgrace. Why can spurs replace modric in 5 minutes but it takes us 2 years to replace fabregas.

I was hopeful but now I'm convinced were run by Muppets.

sent from a fone

Would not say they have replaced Modric but i see what you mean.

[Marc Overmars]

This club are a Fucking disgrace. Why can spurs replace modric in 5 minutes but it takes us 2 years to replace fabregas.

I was hopeful but now I'm convinced were run by Muppets.

sent from a fone

Ashley Cole was right all those years ago...

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Ashley Cole was right all those years ago...

Might have been right but he still a **** lol.

[Marc Overmars]

ofcourseofcourse.

[GP]

Ashley Cole was a dick all those years ago...

He suuuuure was

[Kano]

This club are a Fucking disgrace. Why can spurs replace modric in 5 minutes but it takes us 2 years to replace fabregas.

I was hopeful but now I'm convinced were run by Muppets.

sent from a fone

well wilshere was supposed to be the one to step through

and that went tits up.

[IBK]

Oh I think you'll find that everyone finds it "wrong". But we should still spend beyond our means anyway, because *stomps feet*

Yes, there are people who will say that our board are milking this, that or the other. But they clearly have no fuckin idea. The money which they will earn out of the club is based on share sale, not the profit on transfers. NOBODY could really avoid the slightly hostile takeover by Kronke...purely because everyone, Arsenal fans included, sold the **** their shares. Same goes for that russian mob (thanks David, you ****). In fact, we don't operate as a massive profit making organisation. Simple maths can tell you that we don't earn billions out of selling shirts and seats and pies.

What we do have in surplus cash (to an extent) is reinvested. But it has to be done sensibly, because you don't know what is round the corner, and the assumptions of what cash we actually have to spend is also dependent on many other variables, and fixed outgoings. Despite which, people have to remember that profit doesn't equate to cash.

The problem we have as a club has been the way we have been run, to an extent. It's the way in which we have negotiated our sponsorship deals etc, and the way we market ourselves. We clearly fucked up with the wages we pay (though I can see the logic behind it).

The people that claim we should be spending to keep up with City et al, are completely deluded. Yet they are the same people who say we should be sacking Wenger, when it's pretty obvious he's kept us in the top four clubs in England without spending.

Yes, we can spend a bit more, and hopefully we will. But these fuckin numpties who roll eyes and act all billy big spuds are utter fucktards.

Just focus on the football, because most people, me included, haven't got the foggiest how we run ourselves as a business. But one thing is for sure, in the most part, we're run so that we're not indebted to some tosser who can fuck off whenever he feels like it. If Kronke goes, the clubs still survives as normal. If dirty arab **** goes from city (without leaving massive presents) they're fucked.

I should say, however, that I'm sure we have enough cash to be investing a bit more. And that is the frustrating part...waiting for Arsene to deal is like pulling your teeth out.

Common sense. :bow:

IMHO the only things the club can be seriously criticised for are:

- Being a bit too conservative. I feel we are - but its a hell of a lot better than too many risks and going pop. A lot of people don't understand that we simply don't have the marketing clout to borrow/raise money like Manure do - and even with Manure their levels of debt are uncomfortably high. They have prospered because they have a better manager than us. But AFC can't be criticised for that. SAF's don't grow on trees. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the Chavs and Citeh - the only other clubs above us in the EPL.

- Giving Wenger too much power. A difficult one this, because its been an evolving situation and is so closely tied in with the stadium project as to be indistinguishable. The project has benefitted the club less than was anticipated, but it has undoubtedly been a benefit for the club. Remember the Chavs; Liverpool; Spurs still need to revedelop stadia to progress. We have already done so. And we simply could not have done it without Wenger.

- Becoming an developmental side. I agree wholeheartedly that the balance between tried and tested and overpaid unproven players has become horribly skewed and harmed our chances. But its easy to criticise in hindsight - at the time it was a) a necessary evil of the stadium project and our reduced capacity for sponsorship deals, and b) an alternative to the financial doping route. yes it didn;t work, but IMO its harsh to blame the club for trying.

Noone is trying to deny that not winning anything, and enduring groundhog day in terms of our best players leaving hurts - but I maintain that there is/was little, if anything that the club could have done to prevent Cesc; Na$ri; RVP and Song walking out of the door. We are not as rich or successful as the competition. Its a fact and we have to deal with it. Blaming the club for not being as rich/successful as others is trite.

[Syn]

^ I would add another 'serious' criticism of the club in that list, IBK:

- Demolishing club pride. We've sold our captain to Man Utd. You just don't do shit like that. You hold on to him and if he leaves next year, at least you tried. You can't just take the best option financially all the time. The long-term future of the club is obviously very important. But for Wenger's Arsenal - a club that prides itself on principles and tradition, you just don't hand over your captain to Man Utd. Liverpool would never do that.

[IBK]

It's because the club is being run by rapists. And whores are wearing the shirt. There's nothing left to connect to. It has nothing to do with whether we win trophies or not, at least not for me. Went many years without a trophy and loved it all. But now the football is crushingly boring, it's not worth the money being asked - it's not worth anything at all. Because the owners and the players are here to milk the club dry it seems stupid to be mindlessly loyal - fuck them, I'm not a total mug. The club is dead. Whether it can be resuscitated once the horrible ****s that infest the game have stripped everything bare and left the carcass to rot, I don't know. I hope so.

Few things to deal with here.

Is our football boring? Could be. I'd agree that we are indirect and obsessed with tippy tap possession play. But we were boring under GG. Chelsea were boring under Mourinho. City were boring and negative until the last third of last season. We might not like the way that Wenger has chosen to play, but is that a reason to criticise the club?

Is the game being bled dry? Hell yes. I despise the greedy players; the agents; the billionaires in their pissing contests; the press raking over every sensationalist detail...and yes, for this reason my passion for the game is much diminished. Part of the boredom comes from the fact that the arrival of the petro dollars has taken the spontenaity and the unpredictability out of the game, its not just because of our playing style. But this is an accusation to level at the game, and perhaps even at society itself. Not the club.

Is football value for money? Well the market seems to say so, because our club and others still have full stadia notwithstanding the high prices charged. Its sad, but the reality is that if AFC halved its ticket prices, and then announced that it was not longer seriously in the market for silverware, because it did not have sufficient matchday revenue, but it had now based its policy on simply 'entertaining' as wide a cross section of live fans as possible - I guarantee that there would be even more criticism than now.

[IBK]

^ I would add another 'serious' criticism of the club in that list, IBK:

- Demolishing club pride. We've sold our captain to Man Utd. You just don't do shit like that. You hold on to him and if he leaves next year, at least you tried. You can't just take the best option financially all the time. The long-term future of the club is obviously very important. But for Wenger's Arsenal - a club that prides itself on principles and tradition, you just don't hand over your captain to Man Utd. Liverpool would never do that.

I'll buy that. But IMO it has to be tempered by some pragmatism. We want our club to be hard-nosed when it comes to commercial deals, but being hard nosed about getting the best financial deal for a want away player then comes in for criticism. I still feel, in the real world where football is governed by money, as everything else, that the club had little choice but to do the Manure deal. Personally, I'm disappointed that RVP's gone to Citeh, as I was disappointed when that scrote went to Citeh - because it makes us as fans feel small. But the real crime, IMO, is in not being bolder in re-investing our transfer funds. If we had brought in just one more real quality player the Manure factor would not hurt nearly as much - after all, its hardly a revelation that they are a bigger and better team than we are. I can understand AW not wanting to make a snap decision - after all, Carrol was bought partly to offset psychologically the loss of Torres at Liverpool :lol: but we have a perfect storm of losing our best player and then fumbling in the transfer market like we haven't, and that I will admit is frustrating.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

^ I would add another 'serious' criticism of the club in that list, IBK:

- Demolishing club pride. We've sold our captain to Man Utd. You just don't do shit like that. You hold on to him and if he leaves next year, at least you tried. You can't just take the best option financially all the time. The long-term future of the club is obviously very important. But for Wenger's Arsenal - a club that prides itself on principles and tradition, you just don't hand over your captain to Man Utd. Liverpool would never do that.

Whilst you are right and it shows a lack of ambition selling our captain to our rivals. But if he says he only wanted to go there which he said.,as fergie said. I'd not have believed hat if it came from our camp. Then there is not much we could do, its clear he did not want to be with us.

so what do we do put him in the reserves for a few months or the year. Well we still won't have him in the team and when we do he won't be fully commited.

Its easier said then done to say you hold on to him but football is diffrent once a players head its turned the club have no control really. And If he really wanted to go to man utd then we'd have no choice but to sell him to them as long as a good offer is in.

The problem is getting into that situation where we backed ourself into a corner.

[Kano]

Noone is trying to deny that not winning anything, and enduring groundhog day in terms of our best players leaving hurts - but I maintain that there is/was little, if anything that the club could have done to prevent Cesc; Na$ri; RVP and Song walking out of the door. We are not as rich or successful as the competition. Its a fact and we have to deal with it. Blaming the club for not being as rich/successful as others is trite.
In the case of Nasri, RVP and Song it should have been handled and more importantly pre planned so we did not fall into those situations. The club has to accept criticism for that, particularly for RVP and Song - when it becomes clear that a player who has two years left on their contract is delaying then moves have to be made to ship them on. Not only does offer more security for the club but of course it ensures that other players, clubs and agents get the message that we are not there to be fucked around.

[IBK]

In the case of Nasri, RVP and Song it should have been handled and more importantly pre planned so we did not fall into those situations. The club has to accept criticism for that, particularly for RVP and Song - when it becomes clear that a player who has two years left on their contract is delaying then moves have to be made to ship them on. Not only does offer more security for the club but of course it ensures that other players, clubs and agents get the message that we are not there to be fucked around.

I agree with you re Nasri and Fabregas - although IMO the blame has to be laid at Wenger's door. He clearly believed he could keep both players, ignoring the smoke, and miscalculated.

With RVP and Song, I disagree. Last season was RVP's standout season. Before that there were serious question marks over whether he could keep fir for half a season. Would it have made sense to offer him a big contract beyond 30 with his injury record? Very very questionable, and in my view just as much of a risk as offering stupidly good contracts to unproven players - which the manager is now quite rightly being criticised for. It is quite clear that AFC were not prepared in Summer 2011 to offer £130+ for RVP and in my view, that decision was justified.

And in any event, would it really have made a difference? Song was contracted to 2014, but by all accounts agitated away. Again, I can't really see how the club were at fault. When he showed some signes of improvement, the player was happy to sign up to an improved 5 year contract in 2009. He has his best season and wants out, despite being offered better terms.

As for shipping them on - would you have preferred to do without RVP's last season? Song's last season? - For us to have sold both fopr peanuts and arguably not playing CL? Bottom line is that players leave us because we are not able to offer the terms they are given elsewhere, and/or are not as successful as clubs elsewhere. Not really sure what the club is supposed to do when players almost automatically want out once they have been seasoned at our club.

[Kano]

I agree with you re Nasri and Fabregas - although IMO the blame has to be laid at Wenger's door. He clearly believed he could keep both players, ignoring the smoke, and miscalculated.

With RVP and Song, I disagree. Last season was RVP's standout season. Before that there were serious question marks over whether he could keep fir for half a season. Would it have made sense to offer him a big contract beyond 30 with his injury record? Very very questionable, and in my view just as much of a risk as offering stupidly good contracts to unproven players - which the manager is now quite rightly being criticised for. It is quite clear that AFC were not prepared in Summer 2011 to offer £130+ for RVP and in my view, that decision was justified.

And in any event, would it really have made a difference? Song was contracted to 2014, but by all accounts agitated away. Again, I can't really see how the club were at fault. When he showed some signes of improvement, the player was happy to sign up to an improved 5 year contract in 2009. He has his best season and wants out, despite being offered better terms.

As for shipping them on - would you have preferred to do without RVP's last season? Song's last season? - For us to have sold both fopr peanuts and arguably not playing CL? Bottom line is that players leave us because we are not able to offer the terms they are given elsewhere, and/or are not as successful as clubs elsewhere. Not really sure what the club is supposed to do when players almost automatically want out once they have been seasoned at our club.
if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

[LDG]

if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

Top point, tbf.

And another question that needs to be asked of the club.

But no fucker ever seems to ask them. Even the AST don't want to rock the boat. Madness.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

:gp:

[Joker]

@ Ice Berg, you say the petro dollars have made things predictable and boring but last season was one of the most unpredictable and exciting Premier League seasons in recent years, especially near the end. IMO "petro dollars" has actually stimulated and revitalised competition. Without petro dollars, there is no way for a team outside the "top 4" to break into the oligopoly. With sponsorship, TV deals, Champions League revenue there was already enormous inequality between the "haves" and the "have nots". At least through these billionaire owners, there is an opportunity for other clubs to break the status quo, which should at least give the established clubs an incentive to break out of their comfort zone (although that doesn't seem to be happening with our owners).

[Olivier's xmas twist]

@ Ice Berg, you say the petro dollars have made things predictable and boring but last season was one of the most unpredictable and exciting Premier League seasons in recent years, especially near the end. IMO "petro dollars" has actually stimulated and revitalised competition. Without petro dollars, there is no way for a team outside the "top 4" to break into the oligopoly. With sponsorship, TV deals, Champions League revenue there was already enormous inequality between the "haves" and the "have nots". At least through these billionaire owners, there is an opportunity for other clubs to break the status quo, which should at least give the established clubs an incentive to break out of their comfort zone (although that doesn't seem to be happening with our owners).

So what your saying is without the money City would never have won the league. It might have made the league exciting for city and utd fans but others not so much.

Your right with out money clubs like Everton/Villa etc will never break into that top 4 and thats the problem not every club has a fancy owner like city.

[Niall_Quinn]

@ Ice Berg, you say the petro dollars have made things predictable and boring but last season was one of the most unpredictable and exciting Premier League seasons in recent years, especially near the end. IMO "petro dollars" has actually stimulated and revitalised competition. Without petro dollars, there is no way for a team outside the "top 4" to break into the oligopoly. With sponsorship, TV deals, Champions League revenue there was already enormous inequality between the "haves" and the "have nots". At least through these billionaire owners, there is an opportunity for other clubs to break the status quo, which should at least give the established clubs an incentive to break out of their comfort zone (although that doesn't seem to be happening with our owners).

This is like saying the effects of cancer can be mitigated by giving everyone cancer. It's a more level playing field if everyone is fucked, right? You don't solve a problem by inflating it. City and Chelsea have been horribly damaging to the game. They have destroyed the already diminishing bonds between the clubs and the fans and now you can see what we have. A closed shop where billionaire owners horsetrade with millionaire players with the focus being money rather than football. How anyone can view that as favourable is astounding. And it can only get worse because there may well be more teams at the top now but the gap between themselves and the rest is wider than it has ever been and now looks impossible to close unless more and more teams start employing the Chelsea model. Stupidly rich owner, dump tons of cash in, buy the trophies, suck the fans dry and a spending race to the finish line.

What should have happened is fairer deals with TV rights, fairer deals with European competitions. Extreme penalties for clubs who strayed outside their means. And this all goes without talking about the nature of those "petro" dollars and how many human beings had to die or suffer extreme poverty of disenfranchisement so fat fucking Frank Lampard could literally rob the food out of their mouths to stick petrol in his wide boy Ferrari. The price of everything, the value of nothing. Plus all the other average ****s who would have never made it if football was run on a merit system.

But I know - that's just the way the world works and as sentient beings and the most advanced species ever to walk the earth there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. It's "normal"

[GP]

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

[Niall_Quinn]

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

Neither is an ignorant and complacent electorate. What is the definition of an "expert" today? Somebody who stands to gain at your expense if he can convince you to fuck yourself. Anyway, it was a lake, not a pond.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

This is the definition of an expert today.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49513000/jpg/_49513745_lawro.jpg

What a fucked up world.

[Power n Glory]

if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

Yep, that is a top point. We really need to keep a hold of our top players. We paid Chamakh, Park and Squallaci to sit on the bench for a whole season so I don't see the harm in giving Walcott the wages. Once he has a new deal we have more security and we can sell him if things don't go according to plan. It makes no sense to dig our heels in over this. What also pisses me off is the fact that we're now prepared to keep Walcott for the season and risk losing him on a free transfer. Why wasn't the same approach taken for RVP? Because RVP had a massive offer on the table for his services and I suspect we haven't had an outrageous bid come in for Theo. Money is the priority with this club and it gets on my nerves when I hear fans getting sucked into the same talk of value when we should be focused on retaining our best players and getting better on the pitch.

[selassie]

if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

:gp:

Top post

[IBK]

if it did not make sense to offer them contracts then surely putting them out onto the market would've been the alternative solution. i mean sure, with hindsight we can wonder what we would have done without those 30 goals last season but the dynamics of the situation within the team and club would've been completely different if he had been shopped then.

This constant cloud hanging over the club every season, selling on key players or being forced into tight corners in the last year of their contracts, media hype everywhere, affecting potential new signings and those currently at the club only adds to the negative feeling surrounding the club for some time now.

The apparent 'issue' with walcott at the moment is again, very similar. now a few people are applauding the club for not going above a certain limit but you have to wonder why. we have been happy to pay park god knows how much for two games, so what is the difference in giving theo the money? we cannot talk about principles when too many young players have been overpaid for so long.

Again. 2 different issues, I think.

I don't think it's seriously doubted that Wenger's gamble with a development team has not really worked out (albeit that this is a relative concept - given that it has at least kept us in CL football, unlike some of our bigger spending peers). It seems self-evident that in hindsight we have overpaid players who have failed to deliver, and this has hurt us by leaving them difficult to shift, and using up our cash resources.

But I'm not so sure the answer is as simple as many on here seem to think. Bottom line is that the only world class players we have had for 5 years have been development players. Unknowns or kids that the manager has seen potential in and developed. Players that in many cases we have had to reward relatively richly to come to us rather than our more illustrious competitors. We might all agree that we have gone too top heavy on prospects rather than the so-called proven talent, but it seems to me ironic that on the one hand some lament the departures of players like Hleb; Adebayor; Toure; Cesc; Na$ri; RVP and Song, but on the other forget that all of these players were completely, or relatively unknown when they arrived.

And lets fact it - we cannot afford an Aguero; a Silva; a Torres or a Mata with the competition there is out there - and couldnlt do so even if we did not have, say, 4 or 5 of the players whom we now can't shift. Sure, you can buy the likes of Arteta - but he is a very good player, not a world class one. Some of the players we have developed have been world class - and its basically the only way we can have world class players in our team these days. It seems churlish to criticise completely the system that has resulted in this.

Next - I'm not sure our want away problem is to do with planning/timing. What do people want the club to do? Reward players who become want away before they have proven themselves; or cut off their noses to spite their faces by 'getting in first' to flog them before they make Van Persie type announcements. We would like to keep Walcott, sure, but has he really done sufficient to justify a large price tag? Should he be keeping Oxlade on the bench? What should the club do? The fact is that football is player and agent led these days. You either have deep enough pockets to buy loyalty, or you do your best to keep your best assets, but are basically beholden to them - more so once they start performing.

A catch 22 IMO.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's true, Wenger has developed a lot of talent. And then that talent has been sold on. So we get the top 4 finish (CL money), the club gets the sell on fee. Rinse and repeat. But you don't build a team doing it that way. If you want to build a team you don't set yourself up as a selling club as we have done. Every problem stems from that policy and has a cumulative effect. Other clubs know we will sell, the players know we will sell, the fans are only too aware we'll sell. So we are a waypoint for talented players, a shop window. The fans get cheated and the board cashes out. Wenger makes it all tick, either willingly (which realistically you have to say is the case) or resignedly but without the actual resignation. And the con got played off the back of a time when we did have a team, stuffed with talent. The sting run by the last batch of shareholders was built on inertia, the hangover period where the past fuelled the hope of the future. But as we have seen, it was a giant scam operated for the benefit of the few. All this bullshit about financial prudence, developing teams and infrastructure for the future. Now if the previous shareholders were still in this with us and their investment was on the line, maybe you could believe their bullshit. But their pay day tells the real story. And what about this Kroenke guy. From his own mouth - nothing will change. The objective is not success on the pitch, at least not beyond the level required to keep the financial agenda producing. This is why we look at the direction of the club and wonder WTF? We want one thing, the board wants something entirely different.

[LDG]

It's true, Wenger has developed a lot of talent. And then that talent has been sold on. So we get the top 4 finish (CL money), the club gets the sell on fee. Rinse and repeat. But you don't build a team doing it that way. If you want to build a team you don't set yourself up as a selling club as we have done. Every problem stems from that policy and has a cumulative effect. Other clubs know we will sell, the players know we will sell, the fans are only too aware we'll sell. So we are a waypoint for talented players, a shop window. The fans get cheated and the board cashes out. Wenger makes it all tick, either willingly (which realistically you have to say is the case) or resignedly but without the actual resignation. And the con got played off the back of a time when we did have a team, stuffed with talent. The sting run by the last batch of shareholders was built on inertia, the hangover period where the past fuelled the hope of the future. But as we have seen, it was a giant scam operated for the benefit of the few. All this bullshit about financial prudence, developing teams and infrastructure for the future. Now if the previous shareholders were still in this with us and their investment was on the line, maybe you could believe their bullshit. But their pay day tells the real story. And what about this Kroenke guy. From his own mouth - nothing will change. The objective is not success on the pitch, at least not beyond the level required to keep the financial agenda producing. This is why we look at the direction of the club and wonder WTF? We want one thing, the board wants something entirely different.

:gp:

Fuckin A post mate.

[IBK]

It's true, Wenger has developed a lot of talent. And then that talent has been sold on. So we get the top 4 finish (CL money), the club gets the sell on fee. Rinse and repeat. But you don't build a team doing it that way. If you want to build a team you don't set yourself up as a selling club as we have done. Every problem stems from that policy and has a cumulative effect. Other clubs know we will sell, the players know we will sell, the fans are only too aware we'll sell. So we are a waypoint for talented players, a shop window. The fans get cheated and the board cashes out. Wenger makes it all tick, either willingly (which realistically you have to say is the case) or resignedly but without the actual resignation. And the con got played off the back of a time when we did have a team, stuffed with talent. The sting run by the last batch of shareholders was built on inertia, the hangover period where the past fuelled the hope of the future. But as we have seen, it was a giant scam operated for the benefit of the few. All this bullshit about financial prudence, developing teams and infrastructure for the future. Now if the previous shareholders were still in this with us and their investment was on the line, maybe you could believe their bullshit. But their pay day tells the real story. And what about this Kroenke guy. From his own mouth - nothing will change. The objective is not success on the pitch, at least not beyond the level required to keep the financial agenda producing. This is why we look at the direction of the club and wonder WTF? We want one thing, the board wants something entirely different.

I'm hearing ya - but I'm still not sure it all adds up.

If you are saying that you want the owners to put their hands in their pockets to fund player purchases, or to match the transfer fees/wages available elsewhere then that's one thing - and at least I follow an argument that people are up in arms because while the Chavs and Citeh have "altruistic" billionaires who will supplement/provide their clubs' incomes and we don't, then our billionaires are wankers.

If not, then I don't understand what we could do to avoid being a selling club. We are not as rich as the 3 clubs above us. Fact. We have not been as successful as they have over the past 7/8 years. Fact. What can we do to stop our players wanting to leave for them; or AC Milan; or Real Madrid, or Barca? We either settle for players who aren't good enough to be wanted by them, and do worse than we are now, or we accept that the bigger boys will always steal our pocket money.

Your approach suggests that the board/owners are hoovering up any profit that the club makes. I don't follow this. There is a potential profit to be made via a share increase, yes, and board members in the past have sold out to Kroenke and Usmanov. But currently, no dividend is paid. How are profits reaching the owners' pockets, exactly?

And if this is the model, how is it to be sustained. You don't increase the value of a company merely by ploughing modest profits into its cash reserves. OK if football clubs are commodities, it may be that with more money coming into the game the value of a solvent club like Arsenal will increase without any input - but the best way to achieve this is by upping the club's profile and support base. And the best way to do that is to win things.

Second - I simply don't think that AW wants to sell the players he has developed, out of choice. And I smply don't believe that his best players are being sold under him - he could walk into a place like PSG and be paid just as much as he is now. The only thing that makes logical sense to me is that he knows, and the board knows that there are more tempting destinations out there for mercernary players and that once a player and his agent have decided that they are going, there is very little AFC cn do about it.

Might it just be that the board see AW as the best way to achieve success - and are prepared to give him more time to do this while being careful to keep the club solvent? This would make more sense to me - even if even I feel that manager and therefore board are being over cautious in their approach.

The idea of us being a selling club by design just doesn't add up, to me.

[LDG]

Sub, we're a profit making machine. It makes the club a valuable commodity, and a tempting business aquisition for the next person who wants to bleed it dry.

If we operated the club buy splurging on players, it would create a loss making club, and a not-so-tempting business opportunity.

[IBK]

Sub, we're a profit making machine. It makes the club a valuable commodity, and a tempting business aquisition for the next person who wants to bleed it dry.

If we operated the club buy splurging on players, it would create a loss making club, and a not-so-tempting business opportunity.

We are a profitable club, yes. But how certain are we that these profits are not being re-invested on the playing side? Does anybody, anyware, have any proof of this? Yes, we have cash reserves. But we also have a hell of a wage bill.

[Kano]

Again. 2 different issues, I think.

I don't think it's seriously doubted that Wenger's gamble with a development team has not really worked out (albeit that this is a relative concept - given that it has at least kept us in CL football, unlike some of our bigger spending peers). It seems self-evident that in hindsight we have overpaid players who have failed to deliver, and this has hurt us by leaving them difficult to shift, and using up our cash resources.

But I'm not so sure the answer is as simple as many on here seem to think. Bottom line is that the only world class players we have had for 5 years have been development players. Unknowns or kids that the manager has seen potential in and developed. Players that in many cases we have had to reward relatively richly to come to us rather than our more illustrious competitors. We might all agree that we have gone too top heavy on prospects rather than the so-called proven talent, but it seems to me ironic that on the one hand some lament the departures of players like Hleb; Adebayor; Toure; Cesc; Na$ri; RVP and Song, but on the other forget that all of these players were completely, or relatively unknown when they arrived.

And lets fact it - we cannot afford an Aguero; a Silva; a Torres or a Mata with the competition there is out there - and couldnlt do so even if we did not have, say, 4 or 5 of the players whom we now can't shift. Sure, you can buy the likes of Arteta - but he is a very good player, not a world class one. Some of the players we have developed have been world class - and its basically the only way we can have world class players in our team these days. It seems churlish to criticise completely the system that has resulted in this.

Next - I'm not sure our want away problem is to do with planning/timing. What do people want the club to do? Reward players who become want away before they have proven themselves; or cut off their noses to spite their faces by 'getting in first' to flog them before they make Van Persie type announcements. We would like to keep Walcott, sure, but has he really done sufficient to justify a large price tag? Should he be keeping Oxlade on the bench? What should the club do? The fact is that football is player and agent led these days. You either have deep enough pockets to buy loyalty, or you do your best to keep your best assets, but are basically beholden to them - more so once they start performing.

A catch 22 IMO.
When you put your eggs into one basket and it does not work out, then this is how things turn out in most instances. Man Utd won the league with kids from their academy built around some experience, which is something we decided not to do and eventually put us into this corner. So what then happens is you may develop some stars as we have and the talent ratio across the team becomes disproportionate, so regardless of how they were developed they eventually stand head and shoulders over the rest of a squad that has not been supplemented correctly. That is bad planning of a myopic vision.

The system we have of buying players from the ‘middle’ tier is fine, but again players like Cham and Park for example are not being used, so what is the point of using them? Surely if we are in danger of losing yet another key player to the team it would make sense to pay the going rate to maintain some sort of status quo, instead of this constant feeling of being in transition.

Justifying a price tag no longer counts I believe. No one, not one player – including Messi – can justify the wages they take home every month. If the club can find a way to justify paying for players like Denilson, Park, Cham, Bendtner etc for so long, then arguing against Walcotts rumoured demands seems pointless. Just pay the money. What does it matter anymore? None of them really earn their rate, none of them have any loyalty and it well serve to provide much needed stability in the squad – surely that counts for more than paying for Arshavin to keep his British visa or Park to escape military duty?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's true, Wenger has developed a lot of talent. And then that talent has been sold on. So we get the top 4 finish (CL money), the club gets the sell on fee. Rinse and repeat. But you don't build a team doing it that way. If you want to build a team you don't set yourself up as a selling club as we have done. Every problem stems from that policy and has a cumulative effect. Other clubs know we will sell, the players know we will sell, the fans are only too aware we'll sell. So we are a waypoint for talented players, a shop window. The fans get cheated and the board cashes out. Wenger makes it all tick, either willingly (which realistically you have to say is the case) or resignedly but without the actual resignation. And the con got played off the back of a time when we did have a team, stuffed with talent. The sting run by the last batch of shareholders was built on inertia, the hangover period where the past fuelled the hope of the future. But as we have seen, it was a giant scam operated for the benefit of the few. All this bullshit about financial prudence, developing teams and infrastructure for the future. Now if the previous shareholders were still in this with us and their investment was on the line, maybe you could believe their bullshit. But their pay day tells the real story. And what about this Kroenke guy. From his own mouth - nothing will change. The objective is not success on the pitch, at least not beyond the level required to keep the financial agenda producing. This is why we look at the direction of the club and wonder WTF? We want one thing, the board wants something entirely different.

Spot on.

[LDG]

We are a profitable club, yes. But how certain are we that these profits are not being re-invested on the playing side? Does anybody, anyware, have any proof of this? Yes, we have cash reserves. But we also have a hell of a wage bill.

I think a fair chunk of it does :shrug:

Problem with the football side (as N_Q is saying) is that if you keep selling, and never having a settled team, you won't win things...hence the football side is so frustrating....especially when you know we have a manager who is capable of developing a team.

But now we can't even keep them if we wanted to, as the players have now sniffed out the way to use the club. And the club are happy for them to do so (behind the scenes).

And the bigger players won't come to us in return, because we can't compete with the wages the big clubs are offering.

It's nowt to do with re-investing in the squad. We do reinvest, but the quality is slowing draining away.

Not sure who we'll be selling next summer....

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm hearing ya - but I'm still not sure it all adds up.

If you are saying that you want the owners to put their hands in their pockets to fund player purchases, or to match the transfer fees/wages available elsewhere then that's one thing - and at least I follow an argument that people are up in arms because while the Chavs and Citeh have "altruistic" billionaires who will supplement/provide their clubs' incomes and we don't, then our billionaires are wankers.

If not, then I don't understand what we could do to avoid being a selling club. We are not as rich as the 3 clubs above us. Fact. We have not been as successful as they have over the past 7/8 years. Fact. What can we do to stop our players wanting to leave for them; or AC Milan; or Real Madrid, or Barca? We either settle for players who aren't good enough to be wanted by them, and do worse than we are now, or we accept that the bigger boys will always steal our pocket money.

Your approach suggests that the board/owners are hoovering up any profit that the club makes. I don't follow this. There is a potential profit to be made via a share increase, yes, and board members in the past have sold out to Kroenke and Usmanov. But currently, no dividend is paid. How are profits reaching the owners' pockets, exactly?

And if this is the model, how is it to be sustained. You don't increase the value of a company merely by ploughing modest profits into its cash reserves. OK if football clubs are commodities, it may be that with more money coming into the game the value of a solvent club like Arsenal will increase without any input - but the best way to achieve this is by upping the club's profile and support base. And the best way to do that is to win things.

Second - I simply don't think that AW wants to sell the players he has developed, out of choice. And I smply don't believe that his best players are being sold under him - he could walk into a place like PSG and be paid just as much as he is now. The only thing that makes logical sense to me is that he knows, and the board knows that there are more tempting destinations out there for mercernary players and that once a player and his agent have decided that they are going, there is very little AFC cn do about it.

Might it just be that the board see AW as the best way to achieve success - and are prepared to give him more time to do this while being careful to keep the club solvent? This would make more sense to me - even if even I feel that manager and therefore board are being over cautious in their approach.

The idea of us being a selling club by design just doesn't add up, to me.

The last thing Kroenke wants to do is put money in anyone's pocket right now. It's all about building the value of the asset, he's not a football fan so why would he want to do that? For the cash out. What are the key attributes of a sound investment - at least for an acquisition you want to work with over the mide to long term rather than fire sale? It needs to be a going concern (tick) and have healthy prospects for growth (tick, tick, tick and keep ticking). Arsenal is the ultimate football investment, undervalued all over the shop. But a picture paints it better.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/charts/charts.asp?ticker=AFC:PZ

Do the 5 years chart and tick off the major financial landmarks. See how that chart is the inverse of our strength on the pitch? There's the evidence right there. In fact we have been winning the league, year after year, just not the league the fans want to win.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also, what's Usmanov REALLY pissed about? The lack of trophies? Or the rising share price? After all, it'll be coming out of his pocket when Stan is finished. The team becomes the metaphorical football to kick around, Stan is the bad guy (for doing what the shareholders before him did and what Usmanov can't wait to do), Alisher is our mate because he says he'll buy all the big star names and the fans can be bought easily that way. Anyone really buy that though? Or is this a parade of sharks looking to get rich and gutting our football team to do it?

[IBK]

I think a fair chunk of it does :shrug:

Problem with the football side (as N_Q is saying) is that if you keep selling, and never having a settled team, you won't win things...hence the football side is so frustrating....especially when you know we have a manager who is capable of developing a team.

But now we can't even keep them if we wanted to, as the players have now sniffed out the way to use the club. And the club are happy for them to do so (behind the scenes).

And the bigger players won't come to us in return, because we can't compete with the wages the big clubs are offering.

It's nowt to do with re-investing in the squad. We do reinvest, but the quality is slowing draining away.

Not sure who we'll be selling next summer....

Precisely (the bit in bold).

Where I differ from you is that IMO this is not a situation AFC is to blame for creating. Had the club sustained the Invincibles miomentum, yes it would be different - but remember that the club became a developmental team principally because of the stadium project. It was an attempt to remaion competetive without having to pay huge transfer fees. By the time we had come out of the other end, the rot had already set in as we were no longer perceived as a winning club.

I really, really don't think anyone at the club is happy that we are doomed to lose our best assets - but I think manager and board are convinced that this is inevitable for the forseeable future, and have decided that if there is nothing that they can do about it, which there isn't, we may as well at least get value for our assets. Not really sure what people think we can do as an alternative :unsure:

[Niall_Quinn]

Had the club sustained the Invincibles miomentum, yes it would be different - but remember that the club became a developmental team principally because of the stadium project.

If that's where you stop the analysis you might be right. But what if that was only the public face of the agenda? The means to an end (again very much asset focused) and an ideal way to placate the fans over the long term? Even if not, it certainly had an "accidentally" very useful outcome for certain individuals. I just don't accept that businessmen who engineer their way to the top "luck in" to their pay days. I think they plan and execute very carefully. We don't know, all we can do is look at things and ask the question - who won, who lost. Inevitably the answer is always the same.

[IBK]

If that's where you stop the analysis you might be right. But what if that was only the public face of the agenda? The means to an end (again very much asset focused) and an ideal way to placate the fans over the long term? Even if not, it certainly had an "accidentally" very useful outcome for certain individuals. I just don't accept that businessmen who engineer their way to the top "luck in" to their pay days. I think they plan and execute very carefully. We don't know, all we can do is look at things and ask the question - who won, who lost. Inevitably the answer is always the same.

I don't follow the conspiracy theory. It is common knowledge that the club decided that it would be able to compete with the very best if it increased its stadium capacity, and decided to indulge in property development to boost the coffers further. It is common sense that in having to borrow the money to achieve this, the club had to be cautious on the transfer/playing side while retaining CL football. By the time things started off, Abramovich had come along. The decision was taken to use AW's stregths to develop a winning side. The principal reasons why this failed were a) the manager discovered that you can have as much talent as you want, but to win a league takes balls and experience, b) Citeh took up what the Chavs had started and vastly inflated the market, making it much more difficult for AFC to compete via the more traditional route of buying talent, and c) the property crash meant that the property development that was supposed to elevate the club to super status didn't work out.

I am not saying that Kroenke and Usmanov have not been opportunist in grabbing their assets. I am not saying that in hindsight, committing so heavily to a doomed development project was folly. But I am saying that the way the club started off down this route was fully justified, even laudable, and its not fair to castigate the club entirely for the fact that times have changed, and we are now in this seemingly unending situation of treading water.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't follow the conspiracy theory. It is common knowledge that the club decided that it would be able to compete with the very best if it increased its stadium capacity, and decided to indulge in property development to boost the coffers further. It is common sense that in having to borrow the money to achieve this, the club had to be cautious on the transfer/playing side while retaining CL football. By the time things started off, Abramovich had come along. The decision was taken to use AW's stregths to develop a winning side. The principal reasons why this failed were a) the manager discovered that you can have as much talent as you want, but to win a league takes balls and experience, b) Citeh took up what the Chavs had started and vastly inflated the market, making it much more difficult for AFC to compete via the more traditional route of buying talent, and c) the property crash meant that the property development that was supposed to elevate the club to super status didn't work out.

I am not saying that Kroenke and Usmanov have not been opportunist in grabbing their assets. I am not saying that in hindsight, committing so heavily to a doomed development project was folly. But I am saying that the way the club started off down this route was fully justified, even laudable, and its not fair to castigate the club entirely for the fact that times have changed, and we are now in this seemingly unending situation of treading water.

Yep, two possibilities. Profit by accident, profit through planning. You are less cynical than I am. I am more realistic than you are.

[IBK]

Yep, two possibilities. Profit by accident, profit through planning. You are less cynical than I am. I am more realistic than you are.

I'd like to think I'm logical, but like I say I understand where you are coming from. :good:

[Xhaka Can’t]

I'd like to think I'm logical, but like I say I understand where you are coming from. :good:

I don't always agree with you.

But when I do, I think you're logical.

[gooners]

Yep, two possibilities. Profit by accident, profit through planning. You are less cynical than I am. I am more realistic than you are.

:good:


Phw & co. cashed in for a big payday because it was in the interest of the club --- selling to kronke. Eh, i buy that.
Phw & co. decided it was financially prudent to to invest little in the playing side but invest in a shiny new stadium -- the latter being the safest way to ensure the value of their shares remain intact. Surely, that is very cynical!
Phw & co. decided a self-sustainable model is in the best interest of the club -- literally, not breaking the bank no matter what but accrue profit was/is in the best interest of a FOOTBALL club. Surely, no selfish motives there!

Gotta laugh :lol:

EDIT: Wenger's delusion was a breath of fresh air to them shareholders. I recall wenger once retorting to a disenchanted shareholder at an AGM that 'your share value has gone up' --- so basically they shouldn't complain!

[gooners]

This is the definition of an expert today.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49513000/jpg/_49513745_lawro.jpg

What a fucked up world.

imagine an expert of his calibre performing an open heart surgery on you or a loved one! :wave:

[gooners]

When you put your eggs into one basket and it does not work out, then this is how things turn out in most instances. Man Utd won the league with kids from their academy built around some experience, which is something we decided not to do and eventually put us into this corner. So what then happens is you may develop some stars as we have and the talent ratio across the team becomes disproportionate, so regardless of how they were developed they eventually stand head and shoulders over the rest of a squad that has not been supplemented correctly. That is bad planning of a myopic vision.

The system we have of buying players from the ‘middle’ tier is fine, but again players like Cham and Park for example are not being used, so what is the point of using them? Surely if we are in danger of losing yet another key player to the team it would make sense to pay the going rate to maintain some sort of status quo, instead of this constant feeling of being in transition.

Justifying a price tag no longer counts I believe. No one, not one player – including Messi – can justify the wages they take home every month. If the club can find a way to justify paying for players like Denilson, Park, Cham, Bendtner etc for so long, then arguing against Walcotts rumoured demands seems pointless. Just pay the money. What does it matter anymore? None of them really earn their rate, none of them have any loyalty and it well serve to provide much needed stability in the squad – surely that counts for more than paying for Arshavin to keep his British visa or Park to escape military duty?

:gp:

[gooners]

This is like saying the effects of cancer can be mitigated by giving everyone cancer. It's a more level playing field if everyone is fucked, right? You don't solve a problem by inflating it. City and Chelsea have been horribly damaging to the game. They have destroyed the already diminishing bonds between the clubs and the fans and now you can see what we have. A closed shop where billionaire owners horsetrade with millionaire players with the focus being money rather than football. How anyone can view that as favourable is astounding. And it can only get worse because there may well be more teams at the top now but the gap between themselves and the rest is wider than it has ever been and now looks impossible to close unless more and more teams start employing the Chelsea model. Stupidly rich owner, dump tons of cash in, buy the trophies, suck the fans dry and a spending race to the finish line.

What should have happened is fairer deals with TV rights, fairer deals with European competitions. Extreme penalties for clubs who strayed outside their means. And this all goes without talking about the nature of those "petro" dollars and how many human beings had to die or suffer extreme poverty of disenfranchisement so fat fucking Frank Lampard could literally rob the food out of their mouths to stick petrol in his wide boy Ferrari. The price of everything, the value of nothing. Plus all the other average ****s who would have never made it if football was run on a merit system.

But I know - that's just the way the world works and as sentient beings and the most advanced species ever to walk the earth there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. It's "normal"

This is a slippery slope. Ethics in business is virtually non-existent. Not sure going around moralizing and making insinuations about how someone made their billions is fair. You are free to, of course. But then that debate will boil down to scales ethical dubiousness.

Jokers point is a fair one; trickle down of 'petro-dollars' has increased the competitiveness of much lesser teams. That is not to say the point about tv money distribution is not a valid one --- but spilled milk and all that.

[Xhaka Can’t]

This is a slippery slope.

That's what I said to the Missus last night.

[gooners]

with delight or as a complaint? :o

[Niall_Quinn]

This is a slippery slope. Ethics in business is virtually non-existent. Not sure going around moralizing and making insinuations about how someone made their billions is fair. You are free to, of course. But then that debate will boil down to scales ethical dubiousness.

Jokers point is a fair one; trickle down of 'petro-dollars' has increased the competitiveness of much lesser teams. That is not to say the point about tv money distribution is not a valid one --- but spilled milk and all that.

Not saying what has been done can be undone, not even demanding businessmen introduce ethics into their fucked up world. Sad little saps, 80 years of life and they spend it chasing paper. All I'm saying is, let's not praise them for it and let's not close our minds to imagining a better way. Eventually the better way will arrive because something that is rotten and infested with maggots inevitably consumes itself. When that happens, let's hope we have a few thinkers around who suggest we don't just start the whole insane cycle again because there's no alternative. Acceptance of this shit is dangerous, you tolerate it maybe but condoning it is another matter.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's what I said to the Missus last night.

Coincidence, that's what I told her too.

[Kano]

Jokers point is a fair one; trickle down of 'petro-dollars' has increased the competitiveness of much lesser teams.
i think the illusion is that it has created more competition for the title but in reality there is only ever two teams in with a shout of winning the league after a certain point, never a third running it close to the end of the season. man city have just replaced chelsea's league position and if chelsea manage to come back in the league, it will be man u who flatter to deceive for a distant third.

there could be an argument that the tv money has tightened the gaps between teams fighting for 4-7. wenger has been criticised for calling fourth place a 'trophy' of sorts, but he is far from alone in that assessment - The Race For Fourth (and its pot of gold) is now an annual title created by and for the media to keep fans hooked. mediocrity is acceptable as long as everyone is paid, it seems.

[moviefan84]

i think the illusion is that it has created more competition for the title but in reality there is only ever two teams in with a shout of winning the league after a certain point, never a third running it close to the end of the season. man city have just replaced chelsea's league position and if chelsea manage to come back in the league, it will be man u who flatter to deceive for a distant third.

there could be an argument that the tv money has tightened the gaps between teams fighting for 4-7. wenger has been criticised for calling fourth place a 'trophy' of sorts, but he is far from alone in that assessment - The Race For Fourth (and its pot of gold) is now an annual title created by and for the media to keep fans hooked. mediocrity is acceptable as long as everyone is paid, it seems.

That's one way to look at it, but if you see the quantity of players who could have been brought in in past, say 5 years, players wo went public and expressed their desire to join this squad, its quite impossible to see us in the current state that we're in. If you don't roll the dice and gamble in sports or in anything in life, there is no chance for a great reward.