Disappointment Knows No End

[Japan Shaking All Over]

(Not sure if this should go in another thread. . . But please feel free. ..)

Early man learnt (often the hard way) that in order to keep the family fed on mammoth steak thst he needed to surround himself with the best spear chuckers, club wielders his side of the glacier. . .
Caeser knew that only the best soldiers would guarantee new land for the empire and as with early man if one of his team were lost then a replacement needed to be found. . .

Success is founded on the ability to maintain quality and that quality needs to be produced by an able body of workers, lead by a motivational leader who has the skill to not only nurture and utilise talent but replace it when needed.

This thought process us applied by modern businesses worldwide, those that aspire to be pack leaders. It is also true for sports and activities that require a team to achieve its ultimate goal.

Arsenal (Plc) obviously falls into both the above brackets, evidence and the general consensus shows that we fall into the business category more than that of sports team.

We quite clearly put business success of thst of sports performance, how else would you explain the blarse attitude towards the loss of talent and the lack if urgency shown in replacing it.

Last year we lost Cesc and Nasri, no matter what your opinion may be of they, arguably two of our more talented players at the time. An 8:2 loss to Utd forced the club into action after it seemed Wenger snd co were willing to ride out the storm created by the departures till the end of the season. A call for Wengers head went out around the same time Arteta, Merts were brought in. Such clamour for Wenger to leave died down as an arguably more balanced Arsenal showed fight and finished third. The collective sigh of relief could be heard from all quarters as was the mutterings of 'Never again'.

And 'Never Again' it seemed, Wenger showed balls of steel by getting his hands on Pods, Giourd and later Cazorla. However RvP and Song went out the other door.
For me the losses were easy to bear as I had sumpreme confidence that replacements would be found and that overall the team had a chance to come out stronger.

Such confidence was further fuelled by the words of Wenger and his apparent appreciation that holes remained to be filled and that the first two results of the season exposed us as yet the finished article.

All of this was further supported by a certain amount of profit floating around from completed deals and posdible further cash from Bendtner's eventual departure.

Concrete rumours provided us with names to weigh up and we indeed looked to being spolit for choice.

So as the GW gang took days of work, or neglected their work in favour of remaining glued to transfer trackets we watched the day unfold. But unfold it did not, more like remain a crumpled piece of paper left at the bottom of the waste paper bin.

We have not addressed our needs for the season ahead, we do not go into the next 36 games plus cup runs with anything that resembles a strong enough squad. The modern game demands a squad that can rotate and cover without missing a heartbeat. I never imagine we can have a bench to rival the likes of Citeh, Utd and the Chavs, we dont have the resources but we do have the resources to see a purchase of Dempsey made perfect sense. A few on here dont rate him but he would gave been the kind if cover that inspired more confidence when coming on than the likes of Chamakh or Arshavin, two that are still left to stink up the bench.

We have also failed to replace those major departures, Giourd was not RvPs replacement more like he, Pods and Santi collectively are. But where is their back up, our failure to provide a decent back striker (Dempsey, even one of the younger names, Niang etc) will haunt us if we suffer a spate of injuries.
But for me, worst than that is Song. If he didnt want to stay then so be it, I dont want players that dont want to be at the club but the fact we didnt replace him, the fact that we are putting our faith in Diaby is a big mistake. Diaby, I have said can be immense but he is injury prone snd that by itself should be have been reason enough to pull in someone else. MVila could have been had for 10 mil or a little more, a steal compared to the price he was being shopped for during the Euros but no! The fact that we made no move to address this position makes the choice not to get Sahin more difficult to understand. Even the loan of Essien was dead before the newspapers ink had dried.

We did nothing. . .we go into the season at least to January with a bear minimum squad. A squad that will suffer come injury crisis time. And what is our salvation, January? Come January everything is beyond repair. Charlie said we probably will luck another 4th place.

He may be right. . .for those that know me, my optimism ranks with the like of Ollue and maybe Letters, I tend to dhy away from outing Wenger although I did at times express a lack of belief in whether he was leading us along the right path.


I will use this forum that even if we were to win all four cups, the club, board, Wenger played the back part of the summer wrong and for this my 'Disappointment Knows No End'.

[Penguin]

Good read, that.

[Dicks and chicks]

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/BydYgfCmekQ/hqdefault.jpg

[IBK]

I have defended the club over our departures, but our behaviour in refusing to reinvest the money made is bizarre and depressing. Most depressing of all is the evidence that Wenger has failed even now to learn past lessons. This has severely knocked my confidence in this season.

[Munchies]

In our starting eleven now, I doubt there are many people left who the other top teams would like to have.

Don't be shocked to see Vermaelen leave next season , why would he stay ?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't understand how a Manager that had tasted such success early in his Arsenal career could let and settle for things coming to this. I cannot think of any other 'top' Manager that would either let a squad deteriorate to such a rump of what preceded or acquiesce to a Board directing it without walking.

At the start of the decline, he could have walked and commanded a job anywhere in football. His stock was immense. Now he is widely regarded (often by idiots who've achieved little) as a figure of fun.

It is bizarre and incomprehensible. Either he isn't good enough, or he isn't ambitious enough and is prepared to do whatever a parsimonious Board wants all the while deceiving fans and insulting intelligence.

Either way, I want him to go.

[Power n Glory]

He's taking the absolute piss!

[Penguin]

In our starting eleven now, I doubt there are many people left who the other top teams would like to have.

Don't be shocked to see Vermaelen leave next season , why would he stay ?

I wouldn't be surprised if we sold Wilshere to spurs at this rate...

[Fats]

What surprises me is that every window is the same and some always say"he'll bring others in". He never does unless it's a panic buy.

Winger has gone, he went 4 seasons ago and should have been sacked end of. We ll know why he wasn't and indeed won't. Club is a shambles, a boys club that cares not for the fans that have made it. I'll always support the club but never the greedy ****s that run it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

In our starting eleven now, I doubt there are many people left who the other top teams would like to have.

Don't be shocked to see Vermaelen leave next season , why would he stay ?
You say that now and I agree with you. However,the pattern suggests that we will develop two or three that will be wanted by top teams and we will sell those players to them. Only to repeat the process again.

We are now in a seemingly perpetual cycle of developing individual players without developing an actual team.

[fakeyank]

I don't understand how a Manager that had tasted such success early in his Arsenal career could let and settle for things coming to this. I cannot think of any other 'top' Manager that would either let a squad deteriorate to such a rump of what preceded or acquiesce to a Board directing it without walking.

At the start of the decline, he could have walked and commanded a job anywhere in football. His stock was immense. Now he is widely regarded (often by idiots who've achieved little) as a figure of fun.

It is bizarre and incomprehensible. Either he isn't good enough, or he isn't ambitious enough and is prepared to do whatever a parsimonious Board wants all the while deceiving fans and insulting intelligence.

Either way, I want him to go.

:gp:

I cannot understand this either. This is a manager who went 49 games unbeaten and shat all over Ferguson in the early days and then the move to Emirates happened. His attitude and love for winning went out of the window and now he is just a business man! I'd respect him more if he just resigned and left the club!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't understand how a Manager that had tasted such success early in his Arsenal career could let and settle for things coming to this. I cannot think of any other 'top' Manager that would either let a squad deteriorate to such a rump of what preceded or acquiesce to a Board directing it without walking.

At the start of the decline, he could have walked and commanded a job anywhere in football. His stock was immense. Now he is widely regarded (often by idiots who've achieved little) as a figure of fun.

It is bizarre and incomprehensible. Either he isn't good enough, or he isn't ambitious enough and is prepared to do whatever a parsimonious Board wants all the while deceiving fans and insulting intelligence.

Either way, I want him to go.

Seeing GB angry like this, Shows me how far Wenger has gone and he must go. GB for someone who is cool and rationale around here to get mad shows the tide is turning. most fans are turning against Wenger and if i did a poll today not many would want him to stay accept a few silly folk.

JSAO, good 1st post buddy and i agree with it all 100%.

What everyone has said in here is 100% true. People knew i used to defend aw and be one of those give him one more seasons but not any more enough is enough as far as im concerned he can go and i don't care where. Wenger has no ambition he don't care about winning only cares about creating and we need knew blood. Respect to Png and FY and Zimm to saw this earlier.

But even if he goes stan will only find a wenger part 2 who will suck the boards dick as well so were fucked untill all this regime fuck all really.

Piss off the lot of you and give us OUR ARSENAL BACK COYG.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:gp:

I cannot understand this either. This is a manager who went 49 games unbeaten and shat all over Ferguson in the early days and then the move to Emirates happened. His attitude and love for winning went out of the window and now he is just a business man! I'd respect him more if he just resigned and left the club!

They pay him he bumlicks them its simple but sad. Shame for what once was a great man is now someones bitch.


'd respect him more if he just resigned and left the club!

Your not the only one, but i don't think he will be here this time next year, well our manager i think he'll go upstairs.

[Marc Overmars]

What exactly was the point in selling Song? Don't say he wanted to go because he had 3 years left and we could easily have kept him.

A nice little profit made though, which is what counts.

Fuck off, shitty little selling club.

[Letters]

Anyone who thinks Wenger is the only problem at the club is deluded.

The whole thing makes your head spin though. Every year we have a car crash of a summer and somehow Wenger manages to salvage the situation and we end up in the top 4. Wenger deserves some credit for that. And every year it looks like we've the makings of a decent side which just needs a few additions in order to push on and seriously challenge. And this summer it looked like we might actually be doing some proper business signing 3 decent players. But then we went and sold 2 first teamers, one of whom was the main reason we finished top 4. And, worse, we went and sold him to a team who finished above us last year and with whom we're supposed to be trying to compete.

So here we are again. Will Wenger be able to deliver a top 4 finish again. I wouldn't put it past him, he's done it so many times. Will we win a trophy? Not a chance. Is it all his fault? I don't think so. Would things get better if he left? Personally I doubt it. I have a feeling we'll fall out of the top 4 but maybe that is better than this endless stagnation.

Gaah. Balls to it all.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What exactly was the point in selling Song? Don't say he wanted to go because he had 3 years left and we could easily have kept him.

A nice little profit made though, which is what counts.

Fuck off, shitty little selling club.

Well exactly we did not have to sell him and where under no pressure and Song said himself how could i turn barca down. Song wanted more money we said no. Its not like we had to pander to him and its clear from there he wanted out and the rest is history.

[Cripps_orig]

Didnt read the opening thread

But can people be disappointed if what they expected happened?

We are a joke of a club with a joke of a manager. Top 4 is more or less gone this season and even if we did sneak in, its just scraping the barrel.

Just read that Wenger will prove his doubters wrong once again. When did he prove them wrong before? They say we will win f all, we have won f all. They say Wenger is a mong and guess what, Wenger is a mong. That to me is the doubters being proved right

[Marc Overmars]

Well exactly we did not have to sell him and where under no pressure and Song said himself how could i turn barca down. Song wanted more money we said no. Its not like we had to pander to him and its clear from there he wanted out and the rest is history.

He didn't want out in the same way RVC did, he could and should have been retained.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He didn't want out in the same way RVC did, he could and should have been retained.

No he did not want out in the way RVC did but once Barca came in his head was turned, yes we could have said no and probs should have but if he made his mind up to go then its better to sell then keep a player who had his head turned.

We were always going to sell 2 top players this summer only thought it would be theo instead of song. Well least next summer no one will want our players.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Didnt read the opening thread

But can people be disappointed if what they expected happened?

We are a joke of a club with a joke of a manager. Top 4 is more or less gone this season and even if we did sneak in, its just scraping the barrel.

Just read that Wenger will prove his doubters wrong once again. When did he prove them wrong before? They say we will win f all, we have won f all. They say Wenger is a mong and guess what, Wenger is a mong. That to me is the doubters being proved right
Who said that.

[Cripps_orig]

Who said that.Wenger

[Marc Overmars]

No he did not want out in the way RVC did but once Barca came in his head was turned, yes we could have said no and probs should have but if he made his mind up to go then its better to sell then keep a player who had his head turned.

We were always going to sell 2 top players this summer only thought it would be theo instead of song. Well least next summer no one will want our players.

Oh we'll sell next summer to fund any purchases, you can bank on that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger

link

[Niall_Quinn]

Guys, guys! All is well. Isn't this the year we can renegotiate some of the sponsorship deals that have a lot of room for improved terms? Also we have an easy CL draw so there's cash coming in from that. The wage bill is down, the squad lighter, we're only paying some of Nick's and Park's wages. The debt is being shifted and the share price continues to rise. Can't see where all the doom and gloom is coming from. The books are looking spectacularly good, no other team is anywhere near us. If this isn't a dynasty then tell me what is. We have been top where it really matters for years. Why are you all spoiling it by banging on about football? What's that got to do with anything?

[Letters]

Top 4 is more or less gone this season and even if we did sneak in, its just scraping the barrel.That's what you said last year.

Top 4 isn't scraping the barrel, it's what his bosses set as his target and he hits it every year.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Anyone who thinks Wenger is the only problem at the club is deluded.

The whole thing makes your head spin though. Every year we have a car crash of a summer and somehow Wenger manages to salvage the situation and we end up in the top 4. Wenger deserves some credit for that. And every year it looks like we've the makings of a decent side which just needs a few additions in order to push on and seriously challenge. And this summer it looked like we might actually be doing some proper business signing 3 decent players. But then we went and sold 2 first teamers, one of whom was the main reason we finished top 4. And, worse, we went and sold him to a team who finished above us last year and with whom we're supposed to be trying to compete.

So here we are again. Will Wenger be able to deliver a top 4 finish again. I wouldn't put it past him, he's done it so many times. Will we win a trophy? Not a chance. Is it all his fault? I don't think so. Would things get better if he left? Personally I doubt it. I have a feeling we'll fall out of the top 4 but maybe that is better than this endless stagnation.

Gaah. Balls to it all.

Oh your not wrong but he is a big part of it. Why does he not show ambtion or care about winning. Is it he does but he is just not a good manager? or maybe he is taking the hit now so when he leaves the club will be in good condition for when the next manager takes over.

Just seems he is selling out and turning on the fans, but like i said above even if he goes nothing will change whilst the regime is still the same. Dnd those who think it will are deluding themselves.

The club is in a mess that it will take along time to fix even winning a trophy won't change the mess we are in.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's what you said last year.

Top 4 isn't scraping the barrel, it's what his bosses set as his target and he hits it every year.

Would we have been understanding if they had they guts to come out and tell us top 4 was the realistic limit of our ambitions, at least in the mid term, given what we are up against? Maybe. But lying about wanting to win stuff, that's probably what sticks in the throat. Then again, can a sporting outfit really announce beforehand the aim is not to win? Difficult one. We need to start thinking more along the lines of Stoke City than Manchester City. That's closer to our level now. The top flight is gone, at least until Stan sells to the Russian. Even then, who knows what that gangster has in store for the club? Could be even worse. The future is not bright whichever way you dish it. It's a mess. For me, it doesn't matter if Wenger goes or stays because we don't have a manager at this club in the traditional sense. We have a financial executive, that's the role the board wants filled. The disconnect with the fans and even the original purpose of the game is absolute.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

That's what you said last year.

Top 4 isn't scraping the barrel, it's what his bosses set as his target and he hits it every year.

Pretty much and he'll get it again, spurs are not that much stronger and with AVB that will be a disadvatage enough, neither are pool. We'll luck our way to 4th, Wenger will be told he is a genius again and nest summer well be the same Carzola being liked to city all summer.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Would we have been understanding if they had they guts to come out and tell us top 4 was the realistic limit of our ambitions, at least in the mid term, given what we are up against? Maybe. But lying about wanting to win stuff, that's probably what sticks in the throat. Then again, can a sporting outfit really announce beforehand the aim is not to win? Difficult one. We need to start thinking more along the lines of Stoke City than Manchester City. That's closer to our level now. The top flight is gone, at least until Stan sells to the Russian. Even then, who knows what that gangster has in store for the club? Could be even worse. The future is not bright whichever way you dish it. It's a mess. For me, The disconnect with the fans and even the original purpose of the game is absolute.

Like to see tat before season ticket renewal time.


it doesn't matter if Wenger goes or stays because we don't have a manager at this club in the traditional sense. We have a financial executive, that's the role the board wants filled.
Spot on.

[fakeyank]

Anyone who thinks Wenger is the only problem at the club is deluded.

The whole thing makes your head spin though. Every year we have a car crash of a summer and somehow Wenger manages to salvage the situation and we end up in the top 4. Wenger deserves some credit for that. And every year it looks like we've the makings of a decent side which just needs a few additions in order to push on and seriously challenge. And this summer it looked like we might actually be doing some proper business signing 3 decent players. But then we went and sold 2 first teamers, one of whom was the main reason we finished top 4. And, worse, we went and sold him to a team who finished above us last year and with whom we're supposed to be trying to compete.

So here we are again. Will Wenger be able to deliver a top 4 finish again. I wouldn't put it past him, he's done it so many times. Will we win a trophy? Not a chance. Is it all his fault? I don't think so. Would things get better if he left? Personally I doubt it. I have a feeling we'll fall out of the top 4 but maybe that is better than this endless stagnation.

Gaah. Balls to it all.

Wenger is THE problem IMO.. I am just saying, why not resign IF the board is not letting you run Arsenal as a football club? Why side with the devil? It makes him more of a culprit in my eyes than Stan, Gazidis and co.

[Cripps_orig]

link

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/09/01/3345780/wenger-out-to-prove-arsenal-doubters-wrong-once-again

[Cripps_orig]

That's what you said last year.

Top 4 isn't scraping the barrel, it's what his bosses set as his target and he hits it every year.

Then the fans should be told that

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is THE problem IMO.. I am just saying, why not resign IF the board is not letting you run Arsenal as a football club? Why side with the devil? It makes him more of a culprit in my eyes than Stan, Gazidis and co.

You wouldn't find something fundamentally wrong with a board that is preventing the manager being a manager? You'd place the blame for that on the manager?

Evidently they are all in it together. They admit as much. Obviously they are detached from the fans on every conceivable level. They way they get the hump when they are even mildly questioned is revealing. They are convinced they are correct in everything and have no interest what the fans think or believe.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger is THE problem IMO.. I am just saying, why not resign IF the board is not letting you run Arsenal as a football club? Why side with the devil? It makes him more of a culprit in my eyes than Stan, Gazidis and co.

Simple they pay him so he does what they tell him, If your telling me the boards target is to win the league in the last few years and wenger has failed why is he still there.

His target is top 4 he gets it they are happy he is happy. If you think he will leave and we will get a top manger more fool you my friend.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Then the fans should be told that

Why should they be told whats in his contact? or do you mean the fans should be told the aim is top 4 ?

[Power n Glory]

Still a few believers making excuses for him. :lol: The guy has no problem lying to the fans in every press conference and giving false hope. He's the face and rep that makes the con work. He has no integrity. Fuck him. It's truely pathetic to still see people making excuses for him too.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Still a few believers making excuses for him. :lol: The guy has no problem lying to the fans in every press conference and giving false hope. He's the face and rep that makes the con work. He has no integrity. Fuck him. It's truely pathetic to still see people making excuses for him too.

No one is making excuses no, the board pay him don't they so why would he not do what they say. don't we all do what our bosses tell us to do at work.

if you think a new manager will come in and the transfer situation will change good luck to ya.

[Cripps_orig]

Why should they be told whats in his contact? or do you mean the fans should be told the aim is top 4 ?

Latter

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Latter
Then i agree.

[Letters]

Pretty much and he'll get it again, spurs are not that much stronger and with AVB that will be a disadvatage enough, neither are pool. We'll luck our way to 4th, Wenger will be told he is a genius again and nest summer well be the same Carzola being liked to city all summer.
You don't finish top 4 every year by luck. IMO we're still better than 'the rest' and that's not by luck.
But the issue is we shouldn't be aiming for being better than the rest, we should be aiming for the top.
I'm not convinced we can actually get to the top while the clubs above us can spend far more than us but we can certainly do a lot more to get closer.

But hey, we made a profit in the transfer window again and we'll probably scrape top 4 again so who cares?
Well, the fans do but they keep filling the stadium and buying the shirts so :shrug:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You don't finish top 4 every year by luck. IMO we're still better than 'the rest' and that's not by luck.
But the issue is we shouldn't be aiming for being better than the rest, we should be aiming for the top.
I'm not convinced we can actually get to the top while the clubs above us can spend far more than us but we can certainly do a lot more to get closer.

But hey, we made a profit in the transfer window again and we'll probably scrape top 4 again so who cares?
Well, the fans do but they keep filling the stadium and buying the shirts so :shrug:

Exactly people like too many keyboard warriors who come on here Wenger out, Wenger out but fail to do anything when it matters then moan they have been made mugs or were lied too.

[Letters]

IMO Wenger Out wouldn't fix the problem.
If anyone thinks this board would employ anyone who would cause too much of a stir and demand to spend more money then good luck with that.

[gooners]

Still a few believers making excuses for him. :lol: The guy has no problem lying to the fans in every press conference and giving false hope. He's the face and rep that makes the con work. He has no integrity. Fuck him. It's truely pathetic to still see people making excuses for him too.

this!

AW CAN RESIGN AND GET A TOP JOB ANYWHERE. Why is he still here if he doesn't like what is happening?

look at Mancini and Mourihno or Rafa and their demands when they want something done about their squads; because they they are football men --- not self-annointed fnancial policy experts!

[Power n Glory]

Seeing GB angry like this, Shows me how far Wenger has gone and he must go. GB for someone who is cool and rationale around here to get mad shows the tide is turning. most fans are turning against Wenger and if i did a poll today not many would want him to stay accept a few silly folk.

JSAO, good 1st post buddy and i agree with it all 100%.

What everyone has said in here is 100% true. People knew i used to defend aw and be one of those give him one more seasons but not any more enough is enough as far as im concerned he can go and i don't care where. Wenger has no ambition he don't care about winning only cares about creating and we need knew blood. Respect to Png and FY and Zimm to saw this earlier.

But even if he goes stan will only find a wenger part 2 who will suck the boards dick as well so were fucked untill all this regime fuck all really.

Piss off the lot of you and give us OUR ARSENAL BACK COYG.

Charlie...what is wrong with you. You're mental and have no consistency. :lol:

[gooners]

IMO Wenger Out wouldn't fix the problem.
If anyone thinks this board would employ anyone who would cause too much of a stir and demand to spend more money then good luck with that.

yes it would!

any manager who wants to win but finds the board being greedy will walk!

that means we will keep appointing new managers until the board realise it is costing them more by not giving managers money to invest in the squad.

[Letters]

If you say so.

[Syn]

Call it wishful thinking but fans are actually voting with their feet. I know a couple of people who were not - at all - expecting to be offered a season ticket due to their positions on the waiting list. And they - along with many others, I guess - have declined on the basis of financial reasons and disillusionment with the club. But it's not easy to just 'give up' on the club and I can't imagine any of us who spend so much time discussing tactics and players and such will just be able to stop caring (despite NQ's best efforts). You don't need to stop caring, though. You just need to stop paying. Trying to maintain a big non-local fanbase, particularly abroad, is very tricky to do if Arsenal carry on playing poor football (quality and style) compared to the rest of the top teams.

We can't put any timescale on how long it takes until the club will stop taking the piss but one thing's for sure - it cannot continue forever. It just sucks for us to not know exactly when to expect any long-term change.

[Cripps_orig]

No one knows if Wenger leaving will fix the problem.

Its a risk

Time has come to take that risk

[gooners]

If you say so.


nice one :lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Charlie...what is wrong with you. You're mental and have no consistency. :lol:

And the Board is richer for this. Lets hope he (and his 'cousin') never changes.

[Letters]

No one knows if Wenger leaving will fix the problem.

Its a risk

Time has come to take that riskThat is a more sensible position. We've very little to lose - we could (IMO would) slip in to mid-table but I'm not sure it makes much difference any more. The only concern is a slip into mid-table could be a one way one but at some point Wenger's going to go. Not yet though, he keeps meeting the board's targets. Your boss doesn't sack you if you keep hitting their targets and, better yet, take a lot of the flak for the fans' frustration.

gooners - it's a silly 'yes it would'/'no it wouldn't' debate that there's no point in pursuing. None of us really know.

[Letters]

Call it wishful thinking but fans are actually voting with their feet. I know a couple of people who were not - at all - expecting to be offered a season ticket due to their positions on the waiting list. And they - along with many others, I guess - have declined on the basis of financial reasons and disillusionment with the club. But it's not easy to just 'give up' on the club and I can't imagine any of us who spend so much time discussing tactics and players and such will just be able to stop caring (despite NQ's best efforts). You don't need to stop caring, though. You just need to stop paying. Trying to maintain a big non-local fanbase, particularly abroad, is very tricky to do if Arsenal carry on playing poor football (quality and style) compared to the rest of the top teams.

We can't put any timescale on how long it takes until the club will stop taking the piss but one thing's for sure - it cannot continue forever. It just sucks for us to not know exactly when to expect any long-term change.
:good: I think this will be my last season as a season ticket holder.
It's not just Arsenal, it's football in general I'm disillusioned with. I don't really care which billionare's play thing beats which other billionaire's plaything. It's long since stopped being a sport.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger is responsible for contract negotiations.....he is the one who has burdened our wage bill....so without Wenger we would have a manager who wouldn't be taking responsibility for things that are outside his remit......

[Power n Glory]

And the Board is richer for this. Lets hope he (and his 'cousin') never changes.

You talking the GW board or crooks raking in the money at the Emirates?

[Japan Shaking All Over]

That's what you said last year.

Top 4 isn't scraping the barrel, it's what his bosses set as his target and he hits it every year.

That maybe so. . .and I accepted that last year as we went about things in such a desperate manner after Old Trafford we couldnt really ask for much more but. . .and its a big 'BUT'. . .this year we had a chance to push it a bit more. . .to not come across as satisfued with the bare minimum!

Sure we lost another two vital players but we had time to replace them, in fact with regards to RvP we could agrue that we had already but the last straw has to be Song and the way we just banked that money, used it not only balance the books or even make a loss a little easier to bear. . .we made a fucking profit

If the way that we concluded summer business was part of the scraling the barrel for fourth strategy. . .I dont want part of it.

I dont only blame Wenger but where I come from when someone sets a standard ie the board with Wenger, then they expect me to surpass it not just achieve it. . .

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Charlie...what is wrong with you. You're mental and have no consistency. :lol:

Oh im not saying your wrong i agree with you 100% i was just saying the board pay this guy and he bumlicks them sad but true.

On the field i blame him and him only no one else you can't blame the board fot that and if the new manager came in on the field we would be better for it.

Do you really thing if he left Stan would change his approach if you really do then then fine.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

And the Board is richer for this. Lets hope he (and his 'cousin') never changes.

Not really i don't pay to go to games never will till Wenger and the board leave either

No one knows if Wenger leaving will fix the problem.

Its a risk

Time has come to take that risk

Spot on i agree with this.

[gooners]

That is a more sensible position. We've very little to lose - we could (IMO would) slip in to mid-table but I'm not sure it makes much difference any more. The only concern is a slip into mid-table could be a one way one but at some point Wenger's going to go. Not yet though, he keeps meeting the board's targets. Your boss doesn't sack you if you keep hitting their targets and, better yet, take a lot of the flak for the fans' frustration.

gooners - it's a silly 'yes it would'/'no it wouldn't' debate that there's no point in pursuing. None of us really know.

no, it is not.

you say wenger is doing what he is told to do! History however suggests wenger has been a stubborn man for years and years an genuinly believes in what heis doing. Nothing has ever pointed to the fact that his hand has been forced by anyone - ever! I don't recall if it was fizmann or whomever that said wenger told thm in o uncertain terms that if they gave him a 100mil to spend he will give it back -- because 'i don't want to bankrupt your club!'

So there is evidence that AW is doing exactly what he wants, which means the board have no reason to upset a steady ship!

Hence if Mourinho/Rafa/Mancini etc or any manager who is expected to achieve top 4 finish is not given enoug funds to invest in his squad, they will walk!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Call it wishful thinking but fans are actually voting with their feet. I know a couple of people who were not - at all - expecting to be offered a season ticket due to their positions on the waiting list. And they - along with many others, I guess - have declined on the basis of financial reasons and disillusionment with the club. But it's not easy to just 'give up' on the club and I can't imagine any of us who spend so much time discussing tactics and players and such will just be able to stop caring (despite NQ's best efforts). You don't need to stop caring, though. You just need to stop paying. Trying to maintain a big non-local fanbase, particularly abroad, is very tricky to do if Arsenal carry on playing poor football (quality and style) compared to the rest of the top teams.

We can't put any timescale on how long it takes until the club will stop taking the piss but one thing's for sure - it cannot continue forever. It just sucks for us to not know exactly when to expect any long-term change.

Lets hope so fans need to stop being mugs stand up to this business and hit them where it hurts.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Hence if Mourinho/Rafa/Mancini etc or any manager who is expected to achieve top 4 finish is not given enoug funds to invest in his squad, they will walk!

Jose if you think about it never gets attached to a club so its easy for him to walk away if he thinks he is bing wronged, same with the other too. Where as AW is too attached to Arsenal and he can't just walk away and thats the problem. Is he money hungry or is it he is a power freak and wants to control everything ?

We may slate the Pedro dolla clubs but at least their owners are here where is ours back in the states so really Your right Wenger and gazidas more or less run this ship while stan stays silent which suits all party's.

This is why Wenger needs to go now cause its silly to think the board will or sell to the russian guy.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

http://m.firstpost.com/sports/why-didnt-arsenal-sign-anyone-on-epl-transfer-deadline-day-439514.html

Just picked this out. . .I really dont know how well off we will be when the FFP rules kick in and whether in fact we are actually doing things right. . .but as I said we could have a great season and I still will remain mystified about why we didnt bolster the squad yesterday. . .especially after all the comments we heard abd I think thats what makes us so disappointed. . .that the manager actually seems to know we need something and then does nothing.

But maybe its like the article says it isnt that easy. . .

[Olivier's xmas twist]

So, why didn't Arsenal buy a player on deadline day? For one, it's harder than you think to sign players. Convincing them takes a lot and Arsenal have nothing to show in the last six years to attract players.

And to still be able to sign their targets is a huge achievement for Wenger.

Secondly, Wenger will sign players only if he is sure of them. He won't splash the cash needlessly. The player he wanted may not be available at all... or the club may have priced him out. Take for example the 25 million pound signing of David Luiz. How did that work out? Defenders are absolutely mint in Europe and Arsenal don't have that spending policy. Actually, they never have.

Arsenal will not be successful by just buying a very expensive player, and Wenger knows that, and that's why he didn't sign anyone.


http://m.firstpost.com/sports/why-didnt-arsenal-sign-anyoneepl-transfer-deadline-day-439514.html?page=2

Got this from that article some interesting points.

Maybe this is a point, maybe players did not want to come to us, i mean why would they when they see star players leaving and not sure where the club is going.

How can you convince a top player to join this debarcle. Wenger and co won't pay them top dollar and as for winning stuff well people will look at this sqaud and think feck that.

[gooners]

and why the fuck does the guy who wrote that thinks we havnt won anything the past 6 yrs?

[Marc Overmars]

I agree 1 player won't change everything.

However doing fuck all certainly won't either.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

and why the fuck does the guy who wrote that thinks we havnt won anything the past 6 yrs?

tbf we did win the emirates cup that year.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Anyone who thinks Wenger is the only problem at the club is deluded.

The whole thing makes your head spin though. Every year we have a car crash of a summer and somehow Wenger manages to salvage the situation and we end up in the top 4. Wenger deserves some credit for that. And every year it looks like we've the makings of a decent side which just needs a few additions in order to push on and seriously challenge. And this summer it looked like we might actually be doing some proper business signing 3 decent players. But then we went and sold 2 first teamers, one of whom was the main reason we finished top 4. And, worse, we went and sold him to a team who finished above us last year and with whom we're supposed to be trying to compete.

So here we are again. Will Wenger be able to deliver a top 4 finish again. I wouldn't put it past him, he's done it so many times. Will we win a trophy? Not a chance. Is it all his fault? I don't think so. Would things get better if he left? Personally I doubt it. I have a feeling we'll fall out of the top 4 but maybe that is better than this endless stagnation.

Gaah. Balls to it all.

thats quite ironic isn't it. you calling those that question wenger deluded but you blindly defending him from a majority of the responsibility. it's your stance that seems deluded. i refuse to believe the board would not sanction transfer dealings for our longest and most successful manager ever. fergie gets every tom dick and harry at his club even though they're up to their eye-balls in debt, but wenger - who himself approved some of those working above him in the interview process - is being defiantly told he cannot spend any money. that seems quite unrealistic. i know man united are winning trophies so sanctioning transfers may be easier for them but they aren't in the financial situation we find ourselves in. so you could argue that offsets the trophies argument. was it not wenger who said we will 'certainly' sign a defensive midfielder if song leaves? why did we not sign one? if you believe those close to the club he went as far as personally calling sahin and ticking all the boxes only to back out last minute. why would wenger go so far, only to back out last minute? is it because of the board, and if so, why were they happy to sanction benayouns loan last year when we found ourselves short in midfield yet were so against sanctioning sahin this year, when we are in the same situation? maybe the answer is wenger conformed to his usual ideologies i.e. the sudden news of jack coming back triggered a change of heart. if so, it stinks of another summer of wenger stubborness. the reports coming out of the club this morning were of wenger defending his transfer policies once again, he says the same stuff as before, "We have bought already - Lukas Podolski, Santi Cazorla, Olivier Giroud. But when you listen to people, you always have to buy more". Then he goes onto say "What is important is that we believe in the players we have and get our long-term injuries back, like Jack Wilshere". that tells me he's happy with the squad we have and he thinks we are capable of winning something. you yourself say that's not the case but wenger is disagreeing. he's willing to take the same risks, rely on the same crocked players and stick to the same ideologies, but you still don't question his transfer dealings and devoid him of the majority of responsiblity. at the same time, you're happy to blame the board even though they've proven they will back wenger when he has asked for an incoming player. what does wenger have to do for you to question his transfer dealings even though we have actual quotes attributing his decisions to his actions? and more importantly, why would wenger work with handcuffs on when he himself said he will leave if he does not have total control of transfers?

you're happy to give wenger the benefit of the doubt but your stance on the board is the complete opposite. i find that laughable.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I agree 1 player won't change everything.

However doing fuck all certainly won't either.

This.
And is all for very well setting up for FFP but if you are starting miles behind the rest it doesnt really matter

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This.
And is all for very well setting up for FFP but if you are starting miles behind the rest it doesnt really matter

Sad thing is we only needed to buy Dempsey and Tiote and that would have been enough even if its till Jan and that would cost less the £30 Mill.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger and the board are 2 peas in a pod.

[Jimmy Valmer]

What exactly was the point in selling Song? Don't say he wanted to go because he had 3 years left and we could easily have kept him.

A nice little profit made though, which is what counts.

Fuck off, shitty little selling club.

:good:

and to not replace him as well...

[Marc Overmars]

:good:

and to not replace him as well...

Diaby is like a new signing.

[Jimmy Valmer]

who has started the season very impressively IMO :blink:

[Marc Overmars]

All I see when watching him now is someone trying to run through mud.

[Jimmy Valmer]

All I see when watching him now is someone trying to run through mud.

I know its a bit silly to player analyse now and Diaby of all players but he isn't as 'dynamic' as he was before injury so he's kinda had to modify his game.

There is a player in him that can be a stalwart for our first 11 but you know he'll be injured soon anyway, making our decision not to replace Song even shocking then it currently is.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I agree 1 player won't change everything.

However doing fuck all certainly won't either.

This, not even sure if finishing outside the top for would be better or worse for us this season.

[Kano]

Everyone knows that football has changed in the last 16 years. But when Arsène Wenger has been recast as a conservative, a hold-out, the last man playing the old game, you know how far we have come.

When Wenger came to John Major's England in 1996, he was a relentless progressive, trying to drag British football out of its long dark ages and into the new millennium. "Wannabe" had just been released, the Labour landslide was still eight months away and Wenger brought with him the idea that 10 pints of lager and a mixed kebab might not be the best preparation for team sport.

It might not sound much now, but at the time people were taken aback. Seeing the game differently from everyone else, Wenger went on to win the Double in his first full season in charge.

But now, 16 years on, English football is a different place. And Wenger, so avant garde for so long, is sat on the other side of history.

Arsenal used to keep their best players. The great Wenger sides were full of players coveted by richer teams, but Thierry Henry, Robert Pires, Patrick Vieira, Dennis Bergkamp and Sol Campbell were all persuaded to stay in north London.

Not any more. With other teams willing to outspend Arsenal, Wenger tries despairingly to rely on the loyalty of his players to his club. And over the last year he has been let down again and again.

After all those defeats, Wenger knows that Theo Walcott could let him down too. He knows that loyalty is not what it used to be. And he wishes that science could provide a solution. "We still have not found a machine which can measure the intensity of love," Wenger sighed this week. "We would all buy it."

It would certainly be of use at Arsenal. Maybe it could be Wenger's next project. If he is ever moved upstairs he could focus instead on this, some great man-scanner to reveal the future intentions of his players. With hard work and luck, it could be ready by the time Barcelona are trying to take Jon Toral and Hector Bellerin back to Catalonia. Or Manchester City's move for Chuba Akpom.

But for now, Wenger is still in charge, still trying to operate in the pre-billionaires era, hoping that decency, stability and a tight wage structure will be enough to keep his favourites.

The players are not the only ones who have left Wenger stranded in the past. The Arsenal manager used to rely on a degree of patience and deliberation from supporters and observers. Now he sees modern hysteria and can only shake his head, bemoaning "modern emotional society.

"There are instant reactions on every single media," Wenger said. "Our society has moved from a bit of distance with events to a highly emotional society, because there is a straight-away reaction from the whole society on every single event that happens. We have moved from a thinking society to an emotional society and we have to live with that."

His critique makes sense. Having arrived when he did, in the emotional austerity of the pre-Blair era, Wenger came to a very different England, where instant reaction meant Sports Report on the radio or the pink paper in a newsagent.

There were things he could count on: the commitment of his players, the tightness of his defence, the patience of fans, the knowledge that no foreign billionaire would tower over Arsenal. With those securities in place, Wenger could embark on his great progressive mission of fitness and science, pioneering Arsenal into the future.

But Wenger finds himself now with the situation reversed. The old pillars have been eroded. The era of foreign money has almost rendered Arsenal's self-sustenance irrelevant. Players can no longer be counted on to stay at the club. Fans retweet rage before the ball has even crossed the line.

And Wenger, the old futurist, is reduced to bemoaning collapse of values, raging against the pace of change, wishing things back the way they were, and praying for the creation of his impossible love machine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-last-word-the-times-are-achanging-for-arsne-wenger-whose-sad-cries-of-loyalty-are-from-a-bygone-era-8099961.html

good piece from the independent.

football remains influx every season, an ever increasing circle of overpaid ****s moving from club to club, packing out squads with 'quality' as clubs try to keep up and sky tell us that 'they are going to need new bodies in there to freshen things up'.

i admire wenger for what he believes in, even though it is out of date with current expectations of fans and the modern game. that is why it is time for him to leave. but i'm sure there might be many fans to follow him out of the game too.

[gooners]

nobody has asked wenger to follow the steps of city and chelsea.
but if wenger was truly as intelligent as he is made out to be, he'd already know that.

Sometimes being smart is just being able to adapt. His ancestors did; otherwise he wouldn't be here.

Was fergie stupid to have offered rooney 200k+ a week (to keep him)? Maybe/Maybe not --- but then somtimes needs must.

[Kano]

i think everyone reaches a point where they no longer adapt and stay content as they are. for some people that happens in their teens, so wenger had a good run at it until his 50's.

the articles isn't suggesting he spends like those two, rather that he believes in building stable squads built on astute spending - a time now dead in football.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I know its a bit silly to player analyse now and Diaby of all players but he isn't as 'dynamic' as he was before injury so he's kinda had to modify his game.

There is a player in him that can be a stalwart for our first 11 but you know he'll be injured soon anyway, making our decision not to replace Song even shocking then it currently is.

I agree about Diaby, dont think he is as shit as some make out, in fact he can be extremely effetive, just we havent seen hom plan a handful of consecutive games. . ,maybe from now that may happen
Its just I see him more a back up than a starter, we are going to just have to wait and see

[Özim]

They played it cleverly this summer, I'll give them that. They signed 3 players which looked like a great bit of business....got people signing up for season tickets again....then once they'd conned people they sold 2 first teamers and got more than their money back.....making the fans look like mugs once again.

A job well done by Wenger and co.

[Niall_Quinn]

thats quite ironic isn't it. you calling those that question wenger deluded but you blindly defending him from a majority of the responsibility. it's your stance that seems deluded. i refuse to believe the board would not sanction transfer dealings for our longest and most successful manager ever. fergie gets every tom dick and harry at his club even though they're up to their eye-balls in debt, but wenger - who himself approved some of those working above him in the interview process - is being defiantly told he cannot spend any money. that seems quite unrealistic. i know man united are winning trophies so sanctioning transfers may be easier for them but they aren't in the financial situation we find ourselves in. so you could argue that offsets the trophies argument. was it not wenger who said we will 'certainly' sign a defensive midfielder if song leaves? why did we not sign one? if you believe those close to the club he went as far as personally calling sahin and ticking all the boxes only to back out last minute. why would wenger go so far, only to back out last minute? is it because of the board, and if so, why were they happy to sanction benayouns loan last year when we found ourselves short in midfield yet were so against sanctioning sahin this year, when we are in the same situation? maybe the answer is wenger conformed to his usual ideologies i.e. the sudden news of jack coming back triggered a change of heart. if so, it stinks of another summer of wenger stubborness. the reports coming out of the club this morning were of wenger defending his transfer policies once again, he says the same stuff as before, "We have bought already - Lukas Podolski, Santi Cazorla, Olivier Giroud. But when you listen to people, you always have to buy more". Then he goes onto say "What is important is that we believe in the players we have and get our long-term injuries back, like Jack Wilshere". that tells me he's happy with the squad we have and he thinks we are capable of winning something. you yourself say that's not the case but wenger is disagreeing. he's willing to take the same risks, rely on the same crocked players and stick to the same ideologies, but you still don't question his transfer dealings and devoid him of the majority of responsiblity. at the same time, you're happy to blame the board even though they've proven they will back wenger when he has asked for an incoming player. what does wenger have to do for you to question his transfer dealings even though we have actual quotes attributing his decisions to his actions? and more importantly, why would wenger work with handcuffs on when he himself said he will leave if he does not have total control of transfers?

you're happy to give wenger the benefit of the doubt but your stance on the board is the complete opposite. i find that laughable.

Stan Kroenke runs this club and calls all the shots. There's not even a minuscule possibility this isn't the case. Men like Kroenke don't spend £500mill to then hand control to football managers, that's just not the way business works. Nobody who is smart enough to have built wealth would then be dumb enough to risk it in such a cavalier manner. Kroenke is absolutely ruthless when it comes to money. You can see this from the way he muscled in and is now dismantling the team even more efficiently than the dirty turncoats who went before him. He's arrogant, arrogant enough to prevent a 30% shareholder having any say in how the club is run. But.

That doesn't mean Wenger isn't 100% happy with the direction Kroenke is taking. Seems he is. It appears their motives are different but their interests coincide. Wenger appears to be on some sort of mental breakdown crusade that's underpinned with all the best intentions but operating in the heart of a fantasy land. Winning in the honourable way (as he sees it), in a game without honour packed with people of zero character. Wenger's absolute conviction is just as damaging and arrogant as Kroenke's mechanical desire to rape the club. Wenger doesn't need the money, he needs to be proved right, to prevail. This is how he can love the club and destroy it at the same time. Kroenke shows no sign of lusting for anything beyond money. He is a vampire that exists to suck blood and can only exist by sucking blood. A creature right out of a horror movie, thriving in a world perfectly suited to his methods. Everything has been corrupted so it is inevitable his type rises to supremacy. Survival of the weakest, the most destructive and most foul. The fact Wenger's Disneyland agenda delivers money by the bucketload is a match made in (anti)-heaven. The football is long gone. Personal agendas are what we have left now. It's doubtful they even consider the needs of the fans. They probably believe the fans are too dumb to comprehend the "big picture", as they see it. The real delusions lie with the owners and the manager. They think their selfish ends can justify the means.

[gooners]

i think everyone reaches a point where they no longer adapt and stay content as they are. for some people that happens in their teens, so wenger had a good run at it until his 50's.

the articles isn't suggesting he spends like those two, rather that he believes in building stable squads built on astute spending - a time now dead in football.

fair enough.

but then why did he go and loan benayoun from one of those clubs who's mode of operation - the modern way -- he so morally opposes? Was that not him being a beneficiary of the system he castigates?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i think everyone reaches a point where they no longer adapt and stay content as they are. for some people that happens in their teens, so wenger had a good run at it until his 50's.

the articles isn't suggesting he spends like those two, rather that he believes in building stable squads built on astute spending - a time now dead in football.

:gp:

[gooners]

That doesn't mean Wenger isn't 100% happy with the direction Kroenke is taking. Seems he is. It appears their motives are different but their interests coincide. Wenger appears to be on some sort of mental breakdown crusade that's underpinned with all the best intentions but operating in the heart of a fantasy land. Winning in the honourable way (as he sees it), in a game without honour packed with people of zero character. Wenger's absolute conviction is just as damaging and arrogant as Kroenke's mechanical desire to rape the club. Wenger doesn't need the money, he needs to be proved right, to prevail. This is how he can love the club and destroy it at the same time. Kroenke shows no sign of lusting for anything beyond money. He is a vampire that exists to suck blood and can only exist by sucking blood. A creature right out of a horror movie, thriving in a world perfectly suited to his methods. Everything has been corrupted so it is inevitable his type rises to supremacy. Survival of the weakest, the most destructive and most foul. The fact Wenger's Disneyland agenda delivers money by the bucketload is a match made in (anti)-heaven. The football is long gone. Personal agendas are what we have left now. It's doubtful they even consider the needs of the fans. They probably believe the fans are too dumb to comprehend the "big picture", as they see it. The real delusions lie with the owners and the manager. They think their selfish ends can justify the means.

Finally!

someone sums up AW's role perfectly. He knows what he is doing alright!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

fair enough.

but then why did he go and loan benayoun from one of those clubs who's mode of operation - the modern way -- he so morally opposes? Was that not him being a beneficiary of the system he castigates?

Why did he sell to those clubs he heavly and morally opposes? Fulham made a point of not selling dempsey to pool so why could Wenger and co not do that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

They played it cleverly this summer, I'll give them that. They signed 3 players which looked like a great bit of business....got people signing up for season tickets again....then once they'd conned people they sold 2 first teamers and got more than their money back.....making the fans look like mugs once again.

A job well done by Wenger and co.

Spot on, But like Terry said Fans are stupid and they fall for it everytime. Maybe its because they love the club and always will, we find it hard to be less attached but once your interest in football waines maybe we will someday.

I hate the game and not just because od us but the way the who sport has turned out.

[Power n Glory]

thats quite ironic isn't it. you calling those that question wenger deluded but you blindly defending him from a majority of the responsibility. it's your stance that seems deluded. i refuse to believe the board would not sanction transfer dealings for our longest and most successful manager ever. fergie gets every tom dick and harry at his club even though they're up to their eye-balls in debt, but wenger - who himself approved some of those working above him in the interview process - is being defiantly told he cannot spend any money. that seems quite unrealistic. i know man united are winning trophies so sanctioning transfers may be easier for them but they aren't in the financial situation we find ourselves in. so you could argue that offsets the trophies argument. was it not wenger who said we will 'certainly' sign a defensive midfielder if song leaves? why did we not sign one? if you believe those close to the club he went as far as personally calling sahin and ticking all the boxes only to back out last minute. why would wenger go so far, only to back out last minute? is it because of the board, and if so, why were they happy to sanction benayouns loan last year when we found ourselves short in midfield yet were so against sanctioning sahin this year, when we are in the same situation? maybe the answer is wenger conformed to his usual ideologies i.e. the sudden news of jack coming back triggered a change of heart. if so, it stinks of another summer of wenger stubborness. the reports coming out of the club this morning were of wenger defending his transfer policies once again, he says the same stuff as before, "We have bought already - Lukas Podolski, Santi Cazorla, Olivier Giroud. But when you listen to people, you always have to buy more". Then he goes onto say "What is important is that we believe in the players we have and get our long-term injuries back, like Jack Wilshere". that tells me he's happy with the squad we have and he thinks we are capable of winning something. you yourself say that's not the case but wenger is disagreeing. he's willing to take the same risks, rely on the same crocked players and stick to the same ideologies, but you still don't question his transfer dealings and devoid him of the majority of responsiblity. at the same time, you're happy to blame the board even though they've proven they will back wenger when he has asked for an incoming player. what does wenger have to do for you to question his transfer dealings even though we have actual quotes attributing his decisions to his actions? and more importantly, why would wenger work with handcuffs on when he himself said he will leave if he does not have total control of transfers?

you're happy to give wenger the benefit of the doubt but your stance on the board is the complete opposite. i find that laughable.

:gp: and as Gooner said, history shows that Wenger has been stubborn for years, just look back at his days in Monaco. Without Wenger, this con wouldn't work. He's the confidence man and face for the Arsenal Board members. He chooses to con the fans and lashes out us for our 'impatience' when we're displeased. In this day and age where information is king and so many media outlets are around to get a story across, I'm surprised he hasn't used a 'source' to leak a story to the fans to suggest he's just as pissed off with the current regime. This summer, I've seen how sly the club have been, using the PR machine to pump out stories about RVP and Song. He has friends in the press and if he was being unfairly portrayed, why hasn't he fought back? Today, he's fired right back at the fans and his critics with nonsense statement and there is no need.

RVP was right to leave the club and he wasn't bullshitting when he said he wasn't please with that meeting he had with Wenger and Gazidis. Just look at the final results. They're a bunch of liars. Poldoski was lined up months ago to replace RVP and Giroud was in line to come over as soon as RVP made his intentions clear about his future. The placed a gag on him and then spewed some garbage about it being all about money and us having no choice to sell to our rivals. Bollocks. They saw the money and started to drool. Remember, RVP was in ameeting with both Gazidis and Wenger, so what the heck was said? Seems bloody obvious now. We have no ambition and no intention of strengthening the squad.

Will getting rid of Wenger solve the problem...who knows but I know this stratgey isn't possible without him. He's philosophy of nurturing young talent has infected the club and it wasn't always like this. I hope, there are no Wenger disciples out there and who ever we appoint next as manager can slap some sense into the Board members about how to be successful on the pitch.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:gp: and as Gooner said, history shows that Wenger has been stubborn for years, just look back at his days in Monaco. Without Wenger, this con wouldn't work. He's the confidence man and face for the Arsenal Board members. He chooses to con the fans and lashes out us for our 'impatience' when we're displeased. In this day and age where information is king and so many media outlets are around to get a story across, I'm surprised he hasn't used a 'source' to leak a story to the fans to suggest he's just as pissed off with the current regime. This summer, I've seen how sly the club have been, using the PR machine to pump out stories about RVP and Song. He has friends in the press and if he was being unfairly portrayed, why hasn't he fought back? Today, he's fired right back at the fans and his critics with nonsense statement and there is no need.

RVP was right to leave the club and he wasn't bullshitting when he said he wasn't please with that meeting he had with Wenger and Gazidis. Just look at the final results. They're a bunch of liars. Poldoski was lined up months ago to replace RVP and Giroud was in line to come over as soon as RVP made his intentions clear about his future. The placed a gag on him and then spewed some garbage about it being all about money and us having no choice to sell to our rivals. Bollocks. They saw the money and started to drool. Remember, RVP was in ameeting with both Gazidis and Wenger, so what the heck was said? Seems bloody obvious now. We have no ambition and no intention of strengthening the squad.

Will getting rid of Wenger solve the problem...who knows but I know this stratgey isn't possible without him. He's philosophy of nurturing young talent has infected the club and it wasn't always like this. I hope, there are no Wenger disciples out there and who ever we appoint next as manager can slap some sense into the Board members about how to be successful on the pitch.

Top post Png top post.

[Kano]

fair enough.

but then why did he go and loan benayoun from one of those clubs who's mode of operation - the modern way -- he so morally opposes? Was that not him being a beneficiary of the system he castigates?

i can't answer that - i guess everyone does things that move against their beliefs at times, that would be my guess. i've no clearer idea than you on who he really is, i just felt that article summed up what seems to have happened.

[Power n Glory]

Stan Kroenke runs this club and calls all the shots. There's not even a minuscule possibility this isn't the case. Men like Kroenke don't spend £500mill to then hand control to football managers, that's just not the way business works. Nobody who is smart enough to have built wealth would then be dumb enough to risk it in such a cavalier manner. Kroenke is absolutely ruthless when it comes to money. You can see this from the way he muscled in and is now dismantling the team even more efficiently than the dirty turncoats who went before him. He's arrogant, arrogant enough to prevent a 30% shareholder having any say in how the club is run. But.

That doesn't mean Wenger isn't 100% happy with the direction Kroenke is taking. Seems he is. It appears their motives are different but their interests coincide. Wenger appears to be on some sort of mental breakdown crusade that's underpinned with all the best intentions but operating in the heart of a fantasy land. Winning in the honourable way (as he sees it), in a game without honour packed with people of zero character. Wenger's absolute conviction is just as damaging and arrogant as Kroenke's mechanical desire to rape the club. Wenger doesn't need the money, he needs to be proved right, to prevail. This is how he can love the club and destroy it at the same time. Kroenke shows no sign of lusting for anything beyond money. He is a vampire that exists to suck blood and can only exist by sucking blood. A creature right out of a horror movie, thriving in a world perfectly suited to his methods. Everything has been corrupted so it is inevitable his type rises to supremacy. Survival of the weakest, the most destructive and most foul. The fact Wenger's Disneyland agenda delivers money by the bucketload is a match made in (anti)-heaven. The football is long gone. Personal agendas are what we have left now. It's doubtful they even consider the needs of the fans. They probably believe the fans are too dumb to comprehend the "big picture", as they see it. The real delusions lie with the owners and the manager. They think their selfish ends can justify the means.

This is what I don't get....Stan was brought in by David Dein orinially and we know Dein thinks we need outside investment to compete. Stan must have been all for that when he first hooked up with Dein. Since being invited in to the Board, he's become the opposite of what Dein intended. So what has happend? He's also supposed to be a massive fan of Wenger's philsophy now and it seems as if he's been indoctrinated with the Wenger bullshit since joining the Board. Any American's on here have a clue at what's happend with his other clubs like the Denver Nuggets, Rams, and Rapids?

[Marc Overmars]

He's a spent force I don't see how him being here is giving us the best possible chance of success. He's an extension of the board now and I don't know how anyone can back him and genuinely believe it.

Stick a fork in him, he's done.

[gooners]

i can't answer that - i guess everyone does things that move against their beliefs at times, that would be my guess. i've no clearer idea than you on who he really is, i just felt that article summed up what seems to have happened.

no worries; I was just ranting at these articles that seem to paint wenger as some incorruptible ideologist -- when in fact he is just as self-involved as anyone else in the game

[RomfordPele]

He's the arshavin of football managers.

[Niall_Quinn]

Spot on, But like Terry said Fans are stupid and they fall for it everytime. Maybe its because they love the club and always will, we find it hard to be less attached but once your interest in football waines maybe we will someday.

I hate the game and not just because od us but the way the who sport has turned out.

Can you separate the reasons you hate the game from the fact the club you support is in a self-imposed slump? Would you hate the game if Arsenal were winning titles? I'm not having a go, I ask myself the same question. Do City fans hate the game or even care how they achieve their success? I doubt it. I don't think fans are stupid, I think many are dishonest with themselves. In this respect there's little difference between the owners and the fans, self-interest trumps all. The owners have more balls to go out and grab what they want though. That's why I go on about shit like politics and economics and link it to the game. That's why I hate what the game is now, because it is like all those other corrupted things. In answering myself honestly, it would be easier to kid myself if we were winning - no doubt about that. But it wouldn't be possible to gloss over all the shit. I know people yawn when I start going on, but that's the reason I do it because I see the connection. To be fair to him, Joker asks the same questions. Some prefer to limit it to just the football and that's their right. But I don't think you can fully explain what;s going on here if you restrict yourself in that way.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is what I don't get....Stan was brought in by David Dein orinially and we know Dein thinks we need outside investment to compete. Stan must have been all for that when he first hooked up with Dein. Since being invited in to the Board, he's become the opposite of what Dein intended. So what has happend? He's also supposed to be a massive fan of Wenger's philsophy now and it seems as if he's been indoctrinated with the Wenger bullshit since joining the Board. Any American's on here have a clue at what's happend with his other clubs like the Denver Nuggets, Rams, and Rapids?

Maybe Dein isn't half as smart as he thinks he is and ended up being a light snack for Kroenke. Dein's behaviour doesn't suggest he places Arsenal above all else and it would kind of unrealistic to presume that anyway. He has plenty of money now but he has ended up being kicked out of football's power structure just when he was on the way up. I think he fucked up. He played a dangerous game and lost, then ran away to find reinforcements and lost that one too.

[Kano]

no worries; I was just ranting at these articles that seem to paint wenger as some incorruptible ideologist -- when in fact he is just as self-involved as anyone else in the game
i think it is a mixture of both; rarely are things simply black and white. the 'father figure' stories we've heard over the years are probably very true and remain so for the young players in the team. i think he firmly believes in the way we have been operating for years.

he is the final stretch of his life, probably more than happy to take home a lovely salary for his generations to follow. taking the money probably means more than losing his integrity now.

[Kano]

Can you separate the reasons you hate the game from the fact the club you support is in a self-imposed slump? Would you hate the game if Arsenal were winning titles? I'm not having a go, I ask myself the same question. Do City fans hate the game or even care how they achieve their success? I doubt it. I don't think fans are stupid, I think many are dishonest with themselves. In this respect there's little difference between the owners and the fans, self-interest trumps all. The owners have more balls to go out and grab what they want though. That's why I go on about shit like politics and economics and link it to the game. That's why I hate what the game is now, because it is like all those other corrupted things. In answering myself honestly, it would be easier to kid myself if we were winning - no doubt about that. But it wouldn't be possible to gloss over all the shit. I know people yawn when I start going on, but that's the reason I do it because I see the connection. To be fair to him, Joker asks the same questions. Some prefer to limit it to just the football and that's their right. But I don't think you can fully explain what;s going on here if you restrict yourself in that way.
i think that is a good question and one i've asked myself recently. i don't think the arsenal situation helps the current malaise but there are other factors continuing to wake people up to the lack of connection with what they are watching. you've pointed towards those yourself in other posts - changes in society over the past few years have refocused many fans sucked into the money machine in life and on a football pitch.

fans are stupid. people are stupid. we're all fucking stupid at times. we all place our trust and many other things into elements we have no control over during our lifetime. you just have to hope that if things go wrong, you are ready to learn the lesson for next time.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Can you separate the reasons you hate the game from the fact the club you support is in a self-imposed slump? Would you hate the game if Arsenal were winning titles? I'm not having a go, I ask myself the same question. Do City fans hate the game or even care how they achieve their success? I doubt it. I don't think fans are stupid, I think many are dishonest with themselves. In this respect there's little difference between the owners and the fans, self-interest trumps all. The owners have more balls to go out and grab what they want though. That's why I go on about shit like politics and economics and link it to the game. That's why I hate what the game is now, because it is like all those other corrupted things. In answering myself honestly, it would be easier to kid myself if we were winning - no doubt about that. But it wouldn't be possible to gloss over all the shit. I know people yawn when I start going on, but that's the reason I do it because I see the connection. To be fair to him, Joker asks the same questions. Some prefer to limit it to just the football and that's their right. But I don't think you can fully explain what;s going on here if you restrict yourself in that way.

Of course id be happy even we were winning titles but id still hate the way the game is going. Im sure city fans are loving life right now because lets be honset most never dreamed they'd be here.

But like you say the game has become souless unless you go to the lower leagues where the atmosphere is much better. For me Sepp and Plantini have runied the game and whils they stay there it will only get worse. These are the people who have allowed the game to become a business etc.

With Arsenal i'll always love the team and ill always back the players whilst in the shirt because you have to et behind them whist they play for you, but those who run it ill never back until i know they have clubs interest at heart.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He's a spent force I don't see how him being here is giving us the best possible chance of success. He's an extension of the board now and I don't know how anyone can back him and genuinely believe it.

Stick a fork in him, he's done.

He's not a bad manager and in another league could do very well if he went to an udinese/Athletico where he can get away with playing the way he does.

But with Arsenal i think he is finished and he knows this but desguises this with trying to be the club Villian. Wenger is not some fool who does not know what he is doing he does.

Don't think he has played it clever at all though. I mean a clever man would have said "i know let me give the fans a few cups like the cc or fa just to shut them up" Not this guy Why is that?

[Niall_Quinn]

I think I'll love the memories, but I can't back the players any more because I don't trust any of them as far as I could throw them. I can't name one that I genuinely feel is an Arsenal man. Jack's loud, but let's see what happens when his crunch moment comes. Hope he proves me wrong. Don't really care that much if he proves me right. He's just a kid. I'm and adult. I don't need to run around worshipping him just because he wears a certain colour shirt. All I need to do is expect a return for the huge amounts he extracts from myself and all the other fans and (am I being crazy here) a thank you in the form of loyalty within reason. Not undying loyalty, not blood on the pitch. But if he's offered a silly amount of money to stay at the club that helped him bring his talent to the world, and by silly I mean half of what City offer which is still very, very silly - if he decides to place zero value on everything bar the money then he will deserve to be condemned. It would be right to condemn him. Just like it is 100% correct to condemn van Purse. I don't care if their careers are short, that's why they get paid 100x the normal wage every week. We work 50 years, they get paid 1,000 years equivalent and can then have a second career. Same cant be said of the pros that went before, who did know the meaning of loyalty (comparatively). So that bullshit is a red herring. They use a huge bonus aspect of their profession and pretend it can be an excuse for their behaviour. It's not.

I'm picking on Jack because his move will be as bad as van Purse's, because he's off to Utd too. We are incubating him, that's all. How can you get behind any of that and support it? The only way I can think of is if you just say, fuck it, and enjoy the football. One tiny flaw in that plan, our football is not enjoyable. It used to be. But not now. It's boring. Technical, clever, boring shit. Would be more interesting watching an engine in an Audi. Great engineering, clever, boring. And it doesn't break down every time. There's something horrible and sinister about our football. Robotic, alien to the original intention and with inferior parts so it can't achieve the despicable purpose for which it is designed.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think I'll love the memories, but I can't back the players any more because I don't trust any of them as far as I could throw them. I can't name one that I genuinely feel is an Arsenal man. Jack's loud, but let's see what happens when his crunch moment comes. Hope he proves me wrong. Don't really care that much if he proves me right. He's just a kid. I'm and adult. I don't need to run around worshipping him just because he wears a certain colour shirt. All I need to do is expect a return for the huge amounts he extracts from myself and all the other fans and (am I being crazy here) a thank you in the form of loyalty within reason. Not undying loyalty, not blood on the pitch. But if he's offered a silly amount of money to stay at the club that helped him bring his talent to the world, and by silly I mean half of what City offer which is still very, very silly - if he decides to place zero value on everything bar the money then he will deserve to be condemned. It would be right to condemn him. Just like it is 100% correct to condemn van Purse. I don't care if their careers are short, that's why they get paid 100x the normal wage every week. We work 50 years, they get paid 1,000 years equivalent and can then have a second career. Same cant be said of the pros that went before, who did know the meaning of loyalty (comparatively). So that bullshit is a red herring. They use a huge bonus aspect of their profession and pretend it can be an excuse for their behaviour. It's not.

I'm picking on Jack because his move will be as bad as van Purse's, because he's off to Utd too. We are incubating him, that's all. How can you get behind any of that and support it? The only way I can think of is if you just say, fuck it, and enjoy the football. One tiny flaw in that plan, our football is not enjoyable. It used to be. But not now. It's boring. Technical, clever, boring shit. Would be more interesting watching an engine in an Audi. Great engineering, clever, boring. And it doesn't break down every time. There's something horrible and sinister about our football. Robotic, alien to the original intention and with inferior parts so it can't achieve the despicable purpose for which it is designed.

Maybe have players like Ibramhimovic is good, better the devil you know then the angel you don't. With someone like him you know he will leave so it will not be a dissapointment. Thats the thing with world class players these days they are not loyal so when they leave it does not hurt.

With us we have breeded young players and sold them whilst thinking because they owe a debt to us they must stat and be loyal when players have not been loyal for about 20 years or evn longer now lets stop prentending they are cause as gooners we make asses of ourselves prentding they do.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not buying that story about RVP being greedy. This club just showed their ass and the way Arsene bullshits people and then calls for patience and faith the next...RVP was probably being fed that garbage for years on end. He'd have been a whore to accept the contract on offer from Arsenal knowing full well that we had no intention of going for silverware and strenthening in the summer. Why the heck would you stay 'loyal' to this theiving corporation?

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not buying that story about RVP being greedy. This club just showed their ass and the way Arsene bullshits people and then calls for patience and faith the next...RVP was probably being fed that garbage for years on end. He'd have been a whore to accept the contract on offer from Arsenal knowing full well that we had no intention of going for silverware and strenthening in the summer. Why the heck would you stay 'loyal' to this theiving corporation?

Yes, it's a fair point. Virtue has to exist somewhere before you can pin anything to it. There's zero virtue in the game so it's not surprising players behave as they do. But the ambition thing annoys me. Real ambition is to spite the fuckers like Kroenke and succeed anyway and I really think that if a few players who have since left had rolled their sleeves up and dug in we maybe could have moved on. That said, wouldn't surprise me if Gazidis threatened them with what would happen to their families if they didn't leave. Who knows? Maggots negotiating with maggots over piles of shit, bound to be a stinky outcome no matter. Certainly van Purse gets no credit for abandoning ship. We can understand why he did it, but surely we don't applaud it?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, it's a fair point. Virtue has to exist somewhere before you can pin anything to it. There's zero virtue in the game so it's not surprising players behave as they do. But the ambition thing annoys me. Real ambition is to spite the fuckers like Kroenke and succeed anyway and I really think that if a few players who have since left had rolled their sleeves up and dug in we maybe could have moved on. That said, wouldn't surprise me if Gazidis threatened them with what would happen to their families if they didn't leave. Who knows? Maggots negotiating with maggots over piles of shit, bound to be a stinky outcome no matter. Certainly van Purse gets no credit for abandoning ship. We can understand why he did it, but surely we don't applaud it?

:gp:


Certainly van Purse gets no credit for abandoning ship. We can understand why he did it, but surely we don't applaud it?

This, did not blame him for going but there was no need for his Billy big Bollox stuff.

Why don't all these players who leave come out and slate AW how comes not 1 if i can remember has.

[Power n Glory]

Yes, it's a fair point. Virtue has to exist somewhere before you can pin anything to it. There's zero virtue in the game so it's not surprising players behave as they do. But the ambition thing annoys me. Real ambition is to spite the fuckers like Kroenke and succeed anyway and I really think that if a few players who have since left had rolled their sleeves up and dug in we maybe could have moved on. That said, wouldn't surprise me if Gazidis threatened them with what would happen to their families if they didn't leave. Who knows? Maggots negotiating with maggots over piles of shit, bound to be a stinky outcome no matter. Certainly van Purse gets no credit for abandoning ship. We can understand why he did it, but surely we don't applaud it?

I really can't blame him for jumping ship because he sat and spoke with Wenger and Gazidis and they fed him the same garbage he heard the last time he had contract talks. He was talking about sporting ambition then, signed on again and saw us sell Clichy, Cesc and Nasri in one window after getting dumped out of the Carling Cup to Birmingham. From our long term stratgey to the tactics on the pitch...it stinks and why continue on after 8 years in vain and knowing that Wenger will happily lie to your face, begging you to take the pay cut, be loyal and accept that we can't win trophies when he himself is one the higest paid managers in the league, has already won silverware with Arsenal, has his legacy cemenated with the Emirates Stadium and can still manage for another 15 years if he wanted to! It's easy for Wenger to preach compromise when you're in his position.

The real piss take on RVP's part is actually joining Man Utd. But after the stupid comments I heard from fans about the situation, the sheep mentality and plain blindness to what was really happening...sending abusive tweets, wishing him harm and his family harm....I'd have done the same. Football fans are stupid and hypocrits. Before the summer saga we said the club lacked ambition and when RVP said the same people were baffled as if he was talking rubbish and started pointing to Giroud and Poldoski as if they weren't his replacements, failing to connect the dots as usual. Fuck em all in that case. Loyal to you people....never!

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Stan Kroenke runs this club and calls all the shots. There's not even a minuscule possibility this isn't the case. Men like Kroenke don't spend £500mill to then hand control to football managers, that's just not the way business works. Nobody who is smart enough to have built wealth would then be dumb enough to risk it in such a cavalier manner. Kroenke is absolutely ruthless when it comes to money. You can see this from the way he muscled in and is now dismantling the team even more efficiently than the dirty turncoats who went before him. He's arrogant, arrogant enough to prevent a 30% shareholder having any say in how the club is run. But.

That doesn't mean Wenger isn't 100% happy with the direction Kroenke is taking. Seems he is. It appears their motives are different but their interests coincide. Wenger appears to be on some sort of mental breakdown crusade that's underpinned with all the best intentions but operating in the heart of a fantasy land. Winning in the honourable way (as he sees it), in a game without honour packed with people of zero character. Wenger's absolute conviction is just as damaging and arrogant as Kroenke's mechanical desire to rape the club. Wenger doesn't need the money, he needs to be proved right, to prevail. This is how he can love the club and destroy it at the same time. Kroenke shows no sign of lusting for anything beyond money. He is a vampire that exists to suck blood and can only exist by sucking blood. A creature right out of a horror movie, thriving in a world perfectly suited to his methods. Everything has been corrupted so it is inevitable his type rises to supremacy. Survival of the weakest, the most destructive and most foul. The fact Wenger's Disneyland agenda delivers money by the bucketload is a match made in (anti)-heaven. The football is long gone. Personal agendas are what we have left now. It's doubtful they even consider the needs of the fans. They probably believe the fans are too dumb to comprehend the "big picture", as they see it. The real delusions lie with the owners and the manager. They think their selfish ends can justify the means.

but to the level we are penny pinching? i cant accept that. i completely get the idea that stan wants to maximise his investment and arsenal was the perfect investment for him, but this idea that stan calls every shot all the way from his base in columbia is a rather simplistic view of the model. we know stan's in it for money and he wants to maximise profit, but we also know that these american entrepreneurs know very little about english soccer. if you're suggesting that stan came in and he's calling all the shots then id say that's far fetched as he's entering a new country and league he knows little about. that would jeopardise his investment more than putting money in for a transfer spree. and this is where gazidis, dennis law, hill-wood & wenger come in. these are people that stan trusts so he gives them authority to make decisions on his behalf, which ultimately reverts to my earlier point- i refuse to believe the board would not sanction transfer dealings for our longest and most successful manager ever. stan has invested £500m into a club in a league he knows little about, so for him to come in and overrule a manager who has been here for 15+ years and delivered countless trophies, seems far off the mark and unrealistic. wenger has taken it to a different level. not replacing alex song gets more ludicrous by the hour. do you really think stan told gazidis and co to stand firm against wenger if arsene wanted to sign players? i highly doubt that as i think wenger would be off. he's said it himself. but it seems to be the view of some of our fans. there's this sense of denial when it comes to wengers in the transfer market since we moved to the emirates- this idea that wenger was so successful previously that he can't be at fault for our shambolic teams, so it must be some outside influence (e.g. the board) that are calling all the shots because our beloved wenger is too intelligent to see the major deficiencies in our squad. well what you'll often find is that success does that to you, it breeds stubborness. he's already torn our wage structure into pieces and taken us through a failed youth project. the man put together a team that went a whole season unbeaten and it appears it has made him so entrenched in his own ideologies that anyone who puts forth a view is automatically branded a sceptic. he thinks he can be successful again with the same values he had 10 years ago. unfortunately that's not the case and he's been left behind. the best managers adapt and he hasn't, that's the simple truth. almost like a man stepping foot outside a prison cell for the first time in 20 years, he finds himself out of touch with modern reality. he does not deserve another chance to put together another team. for some of us thats unacceptable.

[Power n Glory]

but to the level we are penny pinching? i cant accept that. i completely get the idea that stan wants to maximise his investment and arsenal was the perfect investment for him, but this idea that stan calls every shot all the way from his base in columbia is a rather simplistic view of the model. we know stan's in it for money and he wants to maximise profit, but we also know that these american entrepreneurs know very little about english soccer. if you're suggesting that stan came in and he's calling all the shots then id say that's far fetched as he's entering a new country and league he knows little about. that would jeopardise his investment more than putting money in for a transfer spree. and this is where gazidis, dennis law, hill-wood & wenger come in. these are people that stan trusts so he gives them authority to make decisions on his behalf, which ultimately reverts to my earlier point- i refuse to believe the board would not sanction transfer dealings for our longest and most successful manager ever. stan has invested £500m into a club in a league he knows little about, so for him to come in and overrule a manager who has been here for 15+ years and delivered countless trophies, seems far off the mark and unrealistic. wenger has taken it to a different level. not replacing alex song gets more ludicrous by the hour. do you really think stan told gazidis and co to stand firm against wenger if arsene wanted to sign players? i highly doubt that as i think wenger would be off. he's said it himself. but it seems to be the view of some of our fans. there's this sense of denial when it comes to wengers in the transfer market since we moved to the emirates- this idea that wenger was so successful previously that he can't be at fault for our shambolic teams, so it must be some outside influence (e.g. the board) that are calling all the shots because our beloved wenger is too intelligent to see the major deficiencies in our squad. well what you'll often find is that success does that to you, it breeds stubborness. he's already torn our wage structure into pieces and taken us through a failed youth project. the man put together a team that went a whole season unbeaten and it appears it has made him so entrenched in his own ideologies that anyone who puts forth a view is automatically branded a sceptic. he thinks he can be successful again with the same values he had 10 years ago. unfortunately that's not the case and he's been left behind. the best managers adapt and he hasn't, that's the simple truth. almost like a man stepping foot outside a prison cell for the first time in 20 years, he finds himself out of touch with modern reality. he does not deserve another chance to put together another team. for some of us thats unacceptable.

:gp:

A great post and that's my view on the Board and Wenger. It goes back to that statement Wenger made about offering a player massive wages when he's reached his peak and on the decline. Wenger loves his stats and looks into all that stuff. Stats on endurance and when it's likely a player will start to tire, stats on how many times a player will shoot on their weaker foot, decide to cross, or go for the short pass...I remember ages ago, a player spoke about why he decided to join Arsenal, (I think it was Theo) and he spoke about how impressed he was with Wenger because he knew so much about him before joining Arsenal. The scouts gather loads of information about a player and it all goes back to Wenger. You'll hear players say they're impressed when they get a personal phone call or visit from Wenger to tie up a deal. There is no way Kronke, a man whose still learning about football, could tell Wenger who and who not to sign. Stan is on board because he loves Wenger's philosophy and compares him to Billy Beane. People should really watch Moneyball. Stan would be an absolute fool to try and dictate to Wenger. He knows he can't and I agree with you. He's trusting Wenger and co to make the decisions because they are the experts.

[jelgoon]

Well i agree with you but how many on this board do. The general consensus on here is that the board are stopping Wenger from buying players and that his only crime is refusing to challenge those instructions and carrying on in his job whilst making the board millions. I disagree with that view - I genuinely feel that Wenger believes somehow that this squad will win something major. He has never bought really big - mainly because he likes to be praised for developing relatively cheap players into top top players like he did for the first five years of his reign.
What surprises me is that every window is the same and some always say"he'll bring others in". He never does unless it's a panic buy.

Winger has gone, he went 4 seasons ago and should have been sacked end of. We ll know why he wasn't and indeed won't. Club is a shambles, a boys club that cares not for the fans that have made it. I'll always support the club but never the greedy ****s that run it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

This is what I don't get....Stan was brought in by David Dein orinially and we know Dein thinks we need outside investment to compete. Stan must have been all for that when he first hooked up with Dein. Since being invited in to the Board, he's become the opposite of what Dein intended. So what has happend? He's also supposed to be a massive fan of Wenger's philsophy now and it seems as if he's been indoctrinated with the Wenger bullshit since joining the Board. Any American's on here have a clue at what's happend with his other clubs like the Denver Nuggets, Rams, and Rapids?

I'm a hockey nut and his team play in the same division as the team I follow. The Colorado Avalanche (NHL) were at the turn of the Century were one of the highest spenders in the League's pre-cap era. This resulted in them being one of the League's premier clubs winning the Stanley Cup in the mid 90s and in 2001. Keonke bought them in 2000 so you could argue that the 2nd and final win had little to do with his influence. Between the last win and the lock out where an entire League season was lost they continued to have high league placings and progressed well into the latter rounds of the play-offs which is no mean feat.

However after the lockout (the league locked the players out because no collective bargaining agreement could be reached) where the whole 2004/5 season was cancelled, the team have stunk and now have one of the lowest payrolls in the League. The current CBA which expires this month contains an agreed Salary Cap and a Salary floor. The Avs are spending very near the floor and have gone from a premier team in the League in 2004 to steady decline and are now League fodder.

There certainly are parallels here on the level of investment in players between the Avs and Arsenal from 2004 to now and this has resulted in a sharp decline in the quality of both teams.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

:gp:

A great post and that's my view on the Board and Wenger. It goes back to that statement Wenger made about offering a player massive wages when he's reached his peak and on the decline. Wenger loves his stats and looks into all that stuff. Stats on endurance and when it's likely a player will start to tire, stats on how many times a player will shoot on their weaker foot, decide to cross, or go for the short pass...I remember ages ago, a player spoke about why he decided to join Arsenal, (I think it was Theo) and he spoke about how impressed he was with Wenger because he knew so much about him before joining Arsenal. The scouts gather loads of information about a player and it all goes back to Wenger. You'll hear players say they're impressed when they get a personal phone call or visit from Wenger to tie up a deal. There is no way Kronke, a man whose still learning about football, could tell Wenger who and who not to sign. Stan is on board because he loves Wenger's philosophy and compares him to Billy Beane. People should really watch Moneyball. Stan would be an absolute fool to try and dictate to Wenger. He knows he can't and I agree with you. He's trusting Wenger and co to make the decisions because they are the experts.

it gets tiresome. this ignorant belief in wenger as if he's faultless when it comes to signings is foolish. he single handedly destroyed our wage structure and put forth the idea to go for a youth project which he exhausted before even he realised was completely flawed for trophies. that alone shows the level of stubborness he persists at. the facts, quotes and evidence points towards wenger in another shambolic summer of events but it's not enough for some people- it must be the board. it must be stan who sits 4000 miles away in his rocking chair calling all the shots. it must be gazidis providing resistance to a man who has been here for 15 years. and for that i thank him, believe me; he was a great manager and had great success but with great success comes great responsibility. managers continue innovating, they change their ways to find untapped avenue's when the level of competition steps up. the fact of the matter is wenger hasn't been doing that but he is still given chance after chance by our board - who may i add are no angels themselves but take less blame for an embarrassing summer - and is allowed to build another team whilst we sit here and pay the highest ticket prices in the country. the club has gone stale; our passing, movement, tactics have all become predictable. a new manager may not bring instant success but it gives us hope. we are in a good financial situation and if wenger does not want to spend the money then a new manager should be given a chance to spend. enough is enough.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

it gets tiresome. this ignorant belief in wenger as if he's faultless when it comes to signings is foolish. he single handedly destroyed our wage structure and put forth the idea to go for a youth project which he exhausted before even he realised was completely flawed for trophies. that alone shows the level of stubborness he persists at. the facts, quotes and evidence points towards wenger in another shambolic summer of events but it's not enough for some people- it must be the board. it must be stan who sits 4000 miles away in his rocking chair calling all the shots. it must be gazidis providing resistance to a man who has been here for 15 years. and for that i thank him, believe me; he was a great manager and had great success but with great success comes great responsibility. managers continue innovating, they change their ways to find untapped avenue's when the level of competition steps up. the fact of the matter is wenger hasn't been doing that but he is still given chance after chance by our board - who may i add are no angels themselves but take less blame for an embarrassing summer - and is allowed to build another team whilst we sit here and pay the highest ticket prices in the country. the club has gone stale; our passing, movement, tactics have all become predictable. a new manager may not bring instant success but it gives us hope. we are in a good financial situation and if wenger does not want to spend the money then a new manager should be given a chance to spend. enough is enough.

So what do we do about it, easy posting on a message board and saying this but what action needs to be taken. We know stan won't sack wenger like she should so what next ?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/09/01/3345780/wenger-out-to-prove-arsenal-doubters-wrong-once-again

Seen lol, haha Wenger supporters on there are funny.

[IBK]

who has started the season very impressively IMO :blink:


Stan Kroenke runs this club and calls all the shots. There's not even a minuscule possibility this isn't the case. Men like Kroenke don't spend £500mill to then hand control to football managers, that's just not the way business works. Nobody who is smart enough to have built wealth would then be dumb enough to risk it in such a cavalier manner. Kroenke is absolutely ruthless when it comes to money. You can see this from the way he muscled in and is now dismantling the team even more efficiently than the dirty turncoats who went before him. He's arrogant, arrogant enough to prevent a 30% shareholder having any say in how the club is run. But.

That doesn't mean Wenger isn't 100% happy with the direction Kroenke is taking. Seems he is. It appears their motives are different but their interests coincide. Wenger appears to be on some sort of mental breakdown crusade that's underpinned with all the best intentions but operating in the heart of a fantasy land. Winning in the honourable way (as he sees it), in a game without honour packed with people of zero character. Wenger's absolute conviction is just as damaging and arrogant as Kroenke's mechanical desire to rape the club. Wenger doesn't need the money, he needs to be proved right, to prevail. This is how he can love the club and destroy it at the same time. Kroenke shows no sign of lusting for anything beyond money. He is a vampire that exists to suck blood and can only exist by sucking blood. A creature right out of a horror movie, thriving in a world perfectly suited to his methods. Everything has been corrupted so it is inevitable his type rises to supremacy. Survival of the weakest, the most destructive and most foul. The fact Wenger's Disneyland agenda delivers money by the bucketload is a match made in (anti)-heaven. The football is long gone. Personal agendas are what we have left now. It's doubtful they even consider the needs of the fans. They probably believe the fans are too dumb to comprehend the "big picture", as they see it. The real delusions lie with the owners and the manager. They think their selfish ends can justify the means.

I think differently. I think Wenger was an important reason why Kroenke bought the club because he spotted a manager who can achieve top 4 and still turn a profit, and I think with that track record Kroenke with no knowledge of 'soccer' gives AW free reign. IMHO what we are seeing is a messianic manager being indulged. He believes that what he is doing is morally right, and he refuses to accept that his judgments can be challenged. In all his project players he sees superstars and regards it as almost an admission of defeat to bring in players to challenge then. Problem is that players don't believe in him any more. I fear our manager is becoming an anachronism - his values, as admirable as they may be, don't apply in the modern game.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-last-word-the-times-are-achanging-for-arsne-wenger-whose-sad-cries-of-loyalty-are-from-a-bygone-era-8099961.html

good piece from the independent.

football remains influx every season, an ever increasing circle of overpaid ****s moving from club to club, packing out squads with 'quality' as clubs try to keep up and sky tell us that 'they are going to need new bodies in there to freshen things up'.

i admire wenger for what he believes in, even though it is out of date with current expectations of fans and the modern game. that is why it is time for him to leave. but i'm sure there might be many fans to follow him out of the game too.

Good read.
Sad but true. And it is even sadder that the game is leaving behind one of its great managers without a second glance. Football is an unforgiving beast and Wenger is learning that to his detriment. The game is being run by people who have money to burn and is being played by people wanting that burning cash. We on the other hand are being managed by a moralist who is directed by a bunch of money grabbing scumbags.

Wenger is being the model employee and doing what he is told and at the sametime thinking that at some point everyone is going to have to come round to his way of thinking, rather thanthe other way round. I cant see that FFP is can to chsnge the playing suface too much and by the looks of it we are going to be too far behind to catch up quickly in any case.

The idealists amongst us all pray that Wenger has got it right and that this is all part of a masterplan but there is no gain without a little pain which makes our closing of business with profit a little frustrating for the fans, a group that dont always consider the bigger picture their responsibility to keep in mind.

Football is a business where those involved no longer put emphasis on the love of the game or the fans, especially at the top end. SAF I believes loves the game but has woken up to its cruelty long ago, everything about Citeh stinks, Di Matteo may love the game but is like a kid in a sweet shop now, the lower you go down it may get better but its such a sad group as they have not the slightest hope in hell. . .the likes of MON, Clarke, Moyes, Lambert et all and then there is Wenger, our very own Arsene, allowing himself to be controlled by a different breed of money vulture, not the kind we see circling over the Eitihad or Stamford the kind that eats the money and then shits it out all over the place for others to get their mouths around but the kind that eats the stuff and purs a plug in their hole so that not one penny can squeeze it way out.

Whether Wenger is parley to all of this is not always easy to gauge, for me anyway but he is sure as heck not doing much to change things, scrapping for fiurth and feeling a job has been done well is no way a team like ours should be functioning but it does and those that say well if the guys up top say thats enough then Wenger is devoid of blame are equally as unambitious as the club itself.

We all probably dont want to see the club go down the same road
as Citeh or Chelsea but silly money is the order of the day and there are waves of it around, Wenger may see himself as the rock that those waves break themselves on but the opposite is true, it is the waves that are breaking the rock and there isnt much he can do.

The sad thing is that it probably wouldnt have taken a sack load, its pointless going through the names but the likes of Dempsey cost next to nothing, Dembele would have been affordable and Felliani nothing more than what clubs have bought our players for. Its a joke we are not willing to pay what we receive (but that was a thought I just had and can be another point. . .)

[gooners]

errm..this so-called moralist/idealist went and loaned a player last season from one of the clubs he abhors for destroying the game.

it is akin to me going to borrow money from a firend whom i continually castigate for being a bank robber.

[moviefan84]

I think differently. I think Wenger was an important reason why Kroenke bought the club because he spotted a manager who can achieve top 4 and still turn a profit, and I think with that track record Kroenke with no knowledge of 'soccer' gives AW free reign. IMHO what we are seeing is a messianic manager being indulged. He believes that what he is doing is morally right, and he refuses to accept that his judgments can be challenged. In all his project players he sees superstars and regards it as almost an admission of defeat to bring in players to challenge then. Problem is that players don't believe in him any more. I fear our manager is becoming an anachronism - his values, as admirable as they may be, don't apply in the modern game.

Its sad but true, the system that allowed WEGNER to play a moneyball type of system is no longer in service. Every league correctly values their players and that, diamond in the rough, so to speak, that unearthed the likes of Viera, Henry and others, no longer applies to modern football.

If you want top talent, expect to pay through the nose for it.

That's something WEGNER no longer realises.

[Cripps_orig]

At first i thought it was a simple mistake but you keep doing it

Whats with the Wegner?

[Power n Glory]

errm..this so-called moralist/idealist went and loaned a player last season from one of the clubs he abhors for destroying the game.

it is akin to me going to borrow money from a firend whom i continually castigate for being a bank robber.

He also has no problems using the 'financially doped' clubs to inflate the transfer fees of our own players when up for sale. Moralist and idealist my ass. It's only when it suits him and he's just as bad as the sharks sitting in the boardroom. I'm not on board with this idea that he's some sort of lone ranger. It may appear that way with his constant preaching but his actions are inconsistent. We court the attention of the oil baron clubs to achieve our own financial goals. We'd have never been able to sell Ade for that fee to another club that wasn't 'doped', never been able to sell Nasri for that fee with a year left on his contract and we've also gotten very good money for the sales of Clichy and Toure. With RVP, we happily courted City's attention in order to coax Man Utd into action and up their transfer fee. He's happy to inflate the price of our own players if it means we achieve profit but then chastise the 'doped' clubs for inflating fees. It makes business sense to do this but he's no moralist. It's only when it suits him. After selling RVP, he said he'd have preferred to sell to a foreign club like PSG. Come on now, PSG! Why not Juve? Because they weren't able to offer an inflated price. We'd never pay over the odds for a player with a year left on his contract!

I don't like this idea that he's being used as a pawn either. He's an intelligent guy and knows what he's doing and saying. Just check his comments today about us living in an 'emotional society' and that we should all 'think before we speak'. It's an utter piss take as if we haven't thought about this for the past 7 years. Fuck him! That's a message to the fans. That's what he chooses to say to the press knowing that the fans are upset with our transfer dealings this summer.

He makes it easy for the board. In footballing terms, he's able legitamise and justify their tight fisted ways and balancing act. The 30 plus contract rule and his recent comments about players on the decline earning massive wages; the board must love that shit. It's a seal of approval and makes sense financially for them but Wenger rubber stamps it with his football logic. One of the suits would never be able to stand before the fans and justify this wage structure and relate it back to the fans so it makes sense in footballing terms. They'd never be able to justify the 30 plus contract rule without Wenger. They'd only be able to point to a balance sheet and explain how we save money. Wenger has data and experience on when players start to decline and when performance starts to suffer on the pitch. That's gold to them. They can hide behind that. They don't have that sort of knowledge. Wenger has no problem volunteering this sort of information to the press and fans. He knows his opinion is highly regarded; he's aware of his influence and what is said about him in the press. His recent comments take the absolute piss.

He's happy to dupe the fans. I heard at an AGM meeting when Gazidis and PHW were getting jeered by the crowd, he jumped in front of the bullets and protected them. He jumped in and started speaking about the club and our vision and that tamed the crowd. He had instant respect and it was if Yoda had just spoken during a heated Jedi council debate. It was reported on Arseblog and Le Grove some months back. Why would he do that if he's getting screwed over and doing simply what he's told? He agrees with this. When the club announced they were raising ticket prices, he said that it was necessary in order to compete with clubs like Chelsea and City. That's utter bollocks but he said it anyway and knew if he related such a financially motivated ploy back to the football pitch, we'd all understand. Forget painting Wenger as a moralist. He's the con man. Without him, the con doesn't work. People trust him and it's how the club gets away with it.

[fakeyank]

He's the con man. Without him, the con doesn't work. People trust him and it's how the club gets away with it.

Couldnt have put it better.

JSAO: "Wenger is being the model employee and doing what he is told and at the sametime thinking that at some point everyone is going to have to come round to his way of thinking, rather thanthe other way round. I cant see that FFP is can to chsnge the playing suface too much and by the looks of it we are going to be too far behind to catch up quickly in any case."

I couldnt disagree more. How can you call him a model employee?! What he is doing by 'doing what the employer asks' him is killing our club! Its like saying "I killed the child because my employer told me to do so.. I am a model employee!" Where is the freaking conscience?! What happened to all that winning mentality?! I can understand people with normal jobs sucking their boss's dick just so that they can earn enough money to make ends meet. Whats Wenger's excuse? Old geezer is rich beyond what we all could ever earn... all he needs to do is the right thing and quit. Unfortunately like PnG said, he is the main culprit- the con man!

[Letters]

thats quite ironic isn't it. you calling those that question wenger deluded but you blindly defending him from a majority of the responsibility.
You've completely misrepresented or misunderstood my views.
You're arguing against something I haven't said.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Couldnt have put it better.

JSAO: "Wenger is being the model employee and doing what he is told and at the sametime thinking that at some point everyone is going to have to come round to his way of thinking, rather thanthe other way round. I cant see that FFP is can to chsnge the playing suface too much and by the looks of it we are going to be too far behind to catch up quickly in any case."

I couldnt disagree more. How can you call him a model employee?! What he is doing by 'doing what the employer asks' him is killing our club! Its like saying "I killed the child because my employer told me to do so.. I am a model employee!" Where is the freaking conscience?! What happened to all that winning mentality?! I can understand people with normal jobs sucking their boss's dick just so that they can earn enough money to make ends meet. Whats Wenger's excuse? Old geezer is rich beyond what we all could ever earn... all he needs to do is the right thing and quit. Unfortunately like PnG said, he is the main culprit- the con man!

FY I use the term model employee more out of exasperation than anything else!

There are those that say that fourth is being laid down as a goal for the season as it secures a certain financial gain on the year, and that when achieved the job is done and that by securing us CL football every year Wenger isnt doing too bad especially with the restrictions our debt, player exodus causes!

Well for a few years I let things go, I wasnt so involved with forums or Arsenal websires, last year saw a desperate mess made palatable through a respectful level of hard work and apparent team cohesion but with that experience should have come high level of learning/appreciation that we could never go into a new season in the same fashion.

It seemed we werent going to either, I agree in the past few seasons we have been mismanaged and I hoped we wouldnt be any more, I am sad to say I was wrong. I do not think we did everything we could to maximism optimism for this season.

I do not blame one entity in this, both the board and Wenger must accept they did not, still dont perform their roles to the best of their ability. We had a chance to really catch up, we missed it in my opinion. I hear but dont buy that there wssnt nothing out there.


As I said we missed the chance, created a bog to be bogged down by, we will be arpind the top and I will be hoping for a win every game but it will be hard. And as I have said even if we are to win the lot this year I still think things should have been done differently.

Wenger out? God knows! Letters often says it may not be any better with a new guy in place, that may be so but we will never know until it happens.

Anyway. . .

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

He makes it easy for the board. In footballing terms, he's able legitamise and justify their tight fisted ways and balancing act. The 30 plus contract rule and his recent comments about players on the decline earning massive wages; the board must love that shit. It's a seal of approval and makes sense financially for them but Wenger rubber stamps it with his football logic. One of the suits would never be able to stand before the fans and justify this wage structure and relate it back to the fans so it makes sense in footballing terms. They'd never be able to justify the 30 plus contract rule without Wenger. They'd only be able to point to a balance sheet and explain how we save money. Wenger has data and experience on when players start to decline and when performance starts to suffer on the pitch. That's gold to them. They can hide behind that. They don't have that sort of knowledge. Wenger has no problem volunteering this sort of information to the press and fans. He knows his opinion is highly regarded; he's aware of his influence and what is said about him in the press. His recent comments take the absolute piss.

He's happy to dupe the fans. I heard at an AGM meeting when Gazidis and PHW were getting jeered by the crowd, he jumped in front of the bullets and protected them. He jumped in and started speaking about the club and our vision and that tamed the crowd. He had instant respect and it was if Yoda had just spoken during a heated Jedi council debate. It was reported on Arseblog and Le Grove some months back. Why would he do that if he's getting screwed over and doing simply what he's told? He agrees with this. When the club announced they were raising ticket prices, he said that it was necessary in order to compete with clubs like Chelsea and City. That's utter bollocks but he said it anyway and knew if he related such a financially motivated ploy back to the football pitch, we'd all understand. Forget painting Wenger as a moralist. He's the con man. Without him, the con doesn't work. People trust him and it's how the club gets away with it.

spot on. its all about his vision- he can sell it. he's a salesman by nature and for the past 7 years he's been selling us a future, constantly telling us 'our time will come' and the team will nurture into something special. only now the problem is many are waking up to the stark reality that this isn't actually the case and that's why i said fans aren't stupid- we can see it. we didn't want to believe it so our eyes became blind to what we thought was the impossible. we didn't want to believe that wenger has lost his touch and we didn't want to believe that he simply isn't capable of putting together another title challenging team. we used to sit back and hope that our beloved wenger would string magic together and get us where we want to be. for the board, fourth is enough but for fans it isn't. we sit here and see our rivals win trophies and overtake us year on year, yet the board and manager seem accepting, almost defeatist in their attitude. if they're defeatist towards winning trophies, why should we avoid being defeatist towards wenger and the current regime? fans aren't willing to see the same mistakes being made, the same players leaving and the same squad neglect taking place. wenger used to be able to cover all this up by talking and selling his vision but everytime he now talks people bite. without wenger we wouldn't be where we are but in recognition of that, what are we supposed to do? sit and watch him erode our club and devoid us of any winning mentality? do we sit back and give him free reign to play with us like we're his personalised christmas toy when there's other avenue's available that may instill us back to winning ways? every year that passes we become less accustomed to winning trophies and that becomes a problem. the problem becomes deep rooted - although id argue it already has - and the wound cuts deeper. never bite the hand that feeds you, but its sad to see that in this case, wenger bit his own hand.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

You've completely misrepresented or misunderstood my views.
You're arguing against something I haven't said.

:lol: i could have bet id get a response like that from you.

crawl back into your cave.

[Penguin]

spot on. its all about his vision- he can sell it. he's a salesman by nature and for the past 7 years he's been selling us a future, constantly telling us 'our time will come' and the team will nurture into something special. only now the problem is many are waking up to the stark reality that this isn't actually the case and that's why i said fans aren't stupid- we can see it. we didn't want to believe it so our eyes became blind to what we thought was the impossible. we didn't want to believe that wenger has lost his touch and we didn't want to believe that he simply isn't capable of putting together another title challenging team. we used to sit back and hope that our beloved wenger would string magic together and get us where we want to be. for the board, fourth is enough but for fans it isn't. we sit here and see our rivals win trophies and overtake us year on year, yet the board and manager seem accepting, almost defeatist in their attitude. if they're defeatist towards winning trophies, why should we avoid being defeatist towards wenger and the current regime? fans aren't willing to see the same mistakes being made, the same players leaving and the same squad neglect taking place. wenger used to be able to cover all this up by talking and selling his vision but everytime he now talks people bite. without wenger we wouldn't be where we are but in recognition of that, what are we supposed to do? sit and watch him erode our club and devoid us of any winning mentality? do we sit back and give him free reign to play with us like we're his personalised christmas toy when there's other avenue's available that may instill us back to winning ways? every year that passes we become less accustomed to winning trophies and that becomes a problem. the problem becomes deep rooted - although id argue it already has - and the wound cuts deeper. never bite the hand that feeds you, but its sad to see that in this case, wenger bit his own hand.

Good post mate but you should paragraph - it's tough on the eye's to read a block like that ;)

[cricketsi]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but just managed to get on the internet for the first time since transfer deadline day and was amazed to see no new transfers in for us. I still can't figure out why we sold Song. That's one of many transfers I would like to know the full story on because it's so bizarre. If we'd kept him at least we'd have a competitive team and squad. Without him, we look fucked.