Was Man United a watershed?

[IBK]

I've seen it said that Saturday's 2-1 defeat was as bad as last year's 8-2, and while this stretches a point I can see the argument. Last year we caught them when we were in turmoil, transfer wise, and they were irrepressible. This year we were utterley dominated by a Manure team who barely got out of second gear. So 14 months on, and this time with transfer business concluded a long time ago, did this game underline in a revealing way why our manager's time is up?

Team selection? Clueless; incompetent and stubborn. Perservering with Santos at LB and Ramsey at RM was folly, and everyone in football apart from Wenger could see it. Arguably, even the selection of Vermaelen, who is woefully out of form, incapable of providing leadership, and gifting a goal a game these days was a mistake. Not to mention his failure to start Walcott, or to consider Oxlade Chamberlain. Wenger has always stated that he does not consider the opposition when setting up his team. It would seem now that he isn't able objectively to consider the performance of his own team.

Player positioning? Podolski on the left is clearly not working. Giroud up front with no service is pointless. Arteta at DM is too easy to mark out of the game. Theo - the best finisher we have, but Wenger would rather play Gervinho up front than Theo. We are a much better team on paper than we are on the pitch - and this team is increasingly looking like Wenger's vanity project more than anything else. It doesn't matter that he is bringling in more seasoned, experienced players. The advantage is being lost, because the manager simply refuses to play to their strengths. Saturday was a prime example of several players looking like they were playing a game utterly unnatural to them.

Team set up. This is a team and formation that can only be explained by the idea that it is set up around having a Diaby in MF. Wake up Wenger. We will never have a Diaby in MF for more than the odd game. Our style of football increasingly seems not to have really evolved since the Fabregas project. Only now, we have inferior players to play it. Wenger's brand of foolball looks not only stale - but almost as though it is the easiest type of football to play against - both in attack and in defence. All the opposition needs to do is to wait for the inevitable mistake. Norwich found it easly; Reading first half midweek...followed by a Manure team that looked almost bored by the lack of challenge on Saturday. Very difficult not to conclude that Wenger has run out of ideas and direction.

Motivation. Ferguson described this fixture pre-match as a 'hard-ish' game. I mean that comment alone would have been all the motivation that any team in the league needed to put in a display. Arsenal looked like they didn't care. Not about the veiled insult. Not about the fact that they looked a division lower than our old arch rivals, and even about making life difficult for Manure - still less about winning the game. Instead, we see that buffoon Santos swapping shirts with the captain that turned his back on us and who had scored against us for Manure, at half time. Second half against Reading aside, we look like a broken team. No belief, no spirit, no drive, no fight. It is the manager who is responsible for this. Rio Ferdinand spoke about how Ferguson buys personalities as well as players. Wenger represses personality - all he wants is characterless drones who do exactly what he wants them to do because his ego can't stand a challenge. So there is nothing shown on the pitch, and Wenger has clearly lost the ability to inspire off it. If he cannot get himself and his team up to play his oldest rival, in a fixture that resulted in such total humiliation last year than I would say that the writing is on the wall.

Regard for the club. Lets get this straight. I think the manager loves the club. But I think that we now need to ask what does this mean. I think that Wenger loves the club in the same way that you might love a faithful Labrador. A pet that exists to do his bidding. Re the team selection and other issues above, I think it is becoming unacceptable that the manager demonstrates such arrogance in perservering with policies, choices and risks that are almost doomed to fail - when the reality is that half of his tenure has now been trophyless.


This might be a bit of a ramble, and I know that all of the points made have been made before, but to see where we have come to against Wenger's oldest and fiercest rival, having been given a year to show that he has moved on since the nadir of last year seems like a watershed to me. I have always wanted to be convinced that Wenger still has it, but finally now I accept that there is no bounce back. I think the sooner his tenure ends now, the better.

[LDG]

It was a waterbungalow. And if the problem isn't arrested, it will become a waterblock of flats by the end of the season.

The man is a lunatic.

[Marc Overmars]

Good read.

I think we all understand the financial climate in football that has handicapped us, but the real problems for us lie on the pitch and Wenger's inability to keep his team fresh and up for the challenge. Lesser teams than us have given United a run for their money this season and will continue to do so, there are just no excuses for these stale and lifeless performances we're churning out.

It's not Gazidis who thinks Ramsey can operate as a winger that's for sure.

[Marc Overmars]

Also, the complete lack of urgency is summed up by players never busting a gut to get in the penalty box to follow in crosses and anticipate rebounds. Pires and Freddie did that in their sleep, yet not one player is prepared to do it now, probably because they've all been told to hold their positions with this bogus style of play.

[GP]

I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.

[LDG]

I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.

Because the loony is either too stubborn, or too far gone to change things up when we're not performing.

i) Before the match, in order to play the best team

and

ii) During the match to change something that ain't working

I am not a football manager at all. But I could see Rooney was marking Arteta out of the game. It was simple shit from Fergie. He just took out pivot out of the game, and it meant we couldn't control the midfield past the half way line.

It's basic stuff. Just like defending is basic stuff, but Wenger absolutely refuses to sort these fundmental issues out, and chucks his belief, 100% in a failed idea.

Lunatic.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I've seen it said that Saturday's 2-1 defeat was as bad as last year's 8-2, and while this stretches a point I can see the argument. Last year we caught them when we were in turmoil, transfer wise, and they were irrepressible. This year we were utterley dominated by a Manure team who barely got out of second gear. So 14 months on, and this time with transfer business concluded a long time ago, did this game underline in a revealing way why our manager's time is up?

Team selection? Clueless; incompetent and stubborn. Perservering with Santos at LB and Ramsey at RM was folly, and everyone in football apart from Wenger could see it. Arguably, even the selection of Vermaelen, who is woefully out of form, incapable of providing leadership, and gifting a goal a game these days was a mistake. Not to mention his failure to start Walcott, or to consider Oxlade Chamberlain. Wenger has always stated that he does not consider the opposition when setting up his team. It would seem now that he isn't able objectively to consider the performance of his own team.

Player positioning? Podolski on the left is clearly not working. Giroud up front with no service is pointless. Arteta at DM is too easy to mark out of the game. Theo - the best finisher we have, but Wenger would rather play Gervinho up front than Theo. We are a much better team on paper than we are on the pitch - and this team is increasingly looking like Wenger's vanity project more than anything else. It doesn't matter that he is bringling in more seasoned, experienced players. The advantage is being lost, because the manager simply refuses to play to their strengths. Saturday was a prime example of several players looking like they were playing a game utterly unnatural to them.

Team set up. This is a team and formation that can only be explained by the idea that it is set up around having a Diaby in MF. Wake up Wenger. We will never have a Diaby in MF for more than the odd game. Our style of football increasingly seems not to have really evolved since the Fabregas project. Only now, we have inferior players to play it. Wenger's brand of foolball looks not only stale - but almost as though it is the easiest type of football to play against - both in attack and in defence. All the opposition needs to do is to wait for the inevitable mistake. Norwich found it easly; Reading first half midweek...followed by a Manure team that looked almost bored by the lack of challenge on Saturday. Very difficult not to conclude that Wenger has run out of ideas and direction.

Motivation. Ferguson described this fixture pre-match as a 'hard-ish' game. I mean that comment alone would have been all the motivation that any team in the league needed to put in a display. Arsenal looked like they didn't care. Not about the veiled insult. Not about the fact that they looked a division lower than our old arch rivals, and even about making life difficult for Manure - still less about winning the game. Instead, we see that buffoon Santos swapping shirts with the captain that turned his back on us and who had scored against us for Manure, at half time. Second half against Reading aside, we look like a broken team. No belief, no spirit, no drive, no fight. It is the manager who is responsible for this. Rio Ferdinand spoke about how Ferguson buys personalities as well as players. Wenger represses personality - all he wants is characterless drones who do exactly what he wants them to do because his ego can't stand a challenge. So there is nothing shown on the pitch, and Wenger has clearly lost the ability to inspire off it. If he cannot get himself and his team up to play his oldest rival, in a fixture that resulted in such total humiliation last year than I would say that the writing is on the wall.

Regard for the club. Lets get this straight. I think the manager loves the club. But I think that we now need to ask what does this mean. I think that Wenger loves the club in the same way that you might love a faithful Labrador. A pet that exists to do his bidding. Re the team selection and other issues above, I think it is becoming unacceptable that the manager demonstrates such arrogance in perservering with policies, choices and risks that are almost doomed to fail - when the reality is that half of his tenure has now been trophyless.


This might be a bit of a ramble, and I know that all of the points made have been made before, but to see where we have come to against Wenger's oldest and fiercest rival, having been given a year to show that he has moved on since the nadir of last year seems like a watershed to me. I have always wanted to be convinced that Wenger still has it, but finally now I accept that there is no bounce back. I think the sooner his tenure ends now, the better.

:gp:

[Kano]

time for Bielsa or Klopp please

[Joker]

Agree with that, questions have to be asked about Wenger's decision making in terms of team selection, tactics, motivation etc. I don't think we can say he's a good manager anymore.

[Power n Glory]

Was reading Arseblog and this part struck me.


As expected Arsene spoke about his decision to leave Jack Wilshere on, citing lack of options for the reason:

"We were in a position where we had to attack and I had no offensive central midfielders on the bench as well".

Which I understood yesterday, especially when we are light in midfield. But, having thought about it, couldn’t he have put on Coquelin in the more defensive role and moved Arteta forward? The Spaniard was shackled by Rooney most of the game, I’m sure Coquelin could have got stuck in there and allowed Arteta to move into an area of the pitch he’s more than comfortable in.

Sometimes Wenger’s rigidity is confusing. On the one hand he seems tactically inflexible and unwilling to make changes when it’s obvious things aren’t working, on the other he’ll play Gervinho at centre-forward, Ramsey on the right of a front three, last season Benayoun in a similar way. I’ve seen calls for changes in formation, a return to 4-4-2, perhaps, something which seemed to serve us well against Reading.


As LDG said also, we could see Arteta was getting marked out of the game but he did nothing for entire match. I don't particularly rate Arteta as a DM because he's not mobile enough or comfortable enough to drop deep, turn and pass the ball off quickly to mount an attack. He's not strong enough to hold his man off either. I've always rated Song for being able to do this with ease when playing as a DM and it really helped players like Cesc to just roam forward and find space. Fergie was in the stands and looked at where to target and he made sure all the attacks came down Santos' side and stuck Rooney on Arteta and kept a tight leash on Cazorla.

Wenger has lost it. He's stale, stubborn and we can all see it. Now the question is, how can things change? He won't listen to his players. People may disagree with RVP telling Wenger who to sign, but the captain should be able to speak to his coach about these things especially if you are asking him to commit his final years to this club. Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again. So what are the options if he won't listen to his players, ex players, critics and pundits and seems blind to the results we see week in week out?

A boycott of games would be fantastic but failing that, the fans just need to kick up a right stink at the Emirates so the message is loud and clear. It seems like the only way now.

[IBK]

Was reading Arseblog and this part struck me.



As LDG said also, we could see Arteta was getting marked out of the game but he did nothing for entire match. I don't particularly rate Arteta as a DM because he's not mobile enough or comfortable enough to drop deep, turn and pass the ball off quickly to mount an attack. He's not strong enough to hold his man off either. I've always rated Song for being able to do this with ease when playing as a DM and it really helped players like Cesc to just roam forward and find space. Fergie was in the stands and looked at where to target and he made sure all the attacks came down Santos' side and stuck Rooney on Arteta and kept a tight leash on Cazorla.

Wenger has lost it. He's stale, stubborn and we can all see it. Now the question is, how can things change? He won't listen to his players. People may disagree with RVP telling Wenger who to sign, but the captain should be able to speak to his coach about these things especially if you are asking him to commit his final years to this club. Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again. So what are the options if he won't listen to his players, ex players, critics and pundits and seems blind to the results we see week in week out?

A boycott of games would be fantastic but failing that, the fans just need to kick up a right stink at the Emirates so the message is loud and clear. It seems like the only way now.

Personally, I think that this season's performances might do it. I think we could well finish mid-table. Its only likely to be the lack of CL football next season that causes any movement. AW seems able only to take decisive action when his own position is challenged - which is why we see RVP, Song sold, but mediocre, unchallenging players played on and on. I think his folly in thinking he can rely on the likes of Diably, Rosicky - hell, even Gibbs is going to be exposed this season, and I think he will run Cazorla into the ground, and Wishere will be played more than he should be played, coming back from injury. I think Giroud/Podolski will lose heart, Walcott will be sold, and Sagna might be the latest player to decide enough's enough.

Its sad - but I can see no direction but down, ATM. Match days appear to be holding up, so its going to take the harsh evidence that manager and team aren't capable of qualifying for CL football - when this is what is repeatedly relied upon by the club these days to justify its existance - to convince the manager to go.

[Kano]

Was reading Arseblog and this part struck me.



As LDG said also, we could see Arteta was getting marked out of the game but he did nothing for entire match. I don't particularly rate Arteta as a DM because he's not mobile enough or comfortable enough to drop deep, turn and pass the ball off quickly to mount an attack. He's not strong enough to hold his man off either. I've always rated Song for being able to do this with ease when playing as a DM and it really helped players like Cesc to just roam forward and find space. Fergie was in the stands and looked at where to target and he made sure all the attacks came down Santos' side and stuck Rooney on Arteta and kept a tight leash on Cazorla.

Wenger has lost it. He's stale, stubborn and we can all see it. Now the question is, how can things change? He won't listen to his players. People may disagree with RVP telling Wenger who to sign, but the captain should be able to speak to his coach about these things especially if you are asking him to commit his final years to this club. Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again. So what are the options if he won't listen to his players, ex players, critics and pundits and seems blind to the results we see week in week out?

A boycott of games would be fantastic but failing that, the fans just need to kick up a right stink at the Emirates so the message is loud and clear. It seems like the only way now.
i'd like to think that when we finish fifth this season it will change things but no, it won't.

only when he leaves will we at least see our teams problems at least attempted to be resolved.

[Power n Glory]

Finishing outside of the top four won't harm his position with the Board. When people started to really question our chances of qualifying we were fed a load of tosh about it not being a disaster to finish outside of the top four, we'd survive financially..blah, blah, blah. With the new TV money coming in next year, that will soften the blow for them even more. Fan reaction is the only thing that can push the agenda and I'm afraid it's looking like Wenger will have to be harrassed out of the club by the supporters. His ego will have to be thoroughly bruised so he walks. It's like the man is a tyrant gone mad and it totally stinks to think it would have to come down to that because it's bloody damaging to our image as a club and us fans. It really sucks and I can see things getting ugly because he's accountable to no one.

[IBK]

Finishing outside of the top four won't harm his position with the Board. When people started to really question our chances of qualifying we were fed a load of tosh about it not being a disaster to finish outside of the top four, we'd survive financially..blah, blah, blah. With the new TV money coming in next year, that will soften the blow for them even more. Fan reaction is the only thing that can push the agenda and I'm afraid it's looking like Wenger will have to be harrassed out of the club by the supporters. His ego will have to be thoroughly bruised so he walks. It's like the man is a tyrant gone mad and it totally stinks to think it would have to come down to that because it's bloody damaging to our image as a club and us fans. It really sucks and I can see things getting ugly because he's accountable to no one.

I kind of agree with you - for me, its a question of whether Wenger decides himself to leave. I mean you can hide behind the stadium project all you like, but there has to come a time at which you see how far your footballing legacy has come crashing down. For me, footballing wise AW continues to pat himself on the back (and in fairness, with some justification) for delivering CL football. When he no longer does so - and his stock has fallen so low that he cannot even draw the project players he wants to - I can see him walking...and I am probably one of the only people who doesn;t want him to move upstairs either, because his power and ego will end up screwing over whoever we get in.

Its going to be messy any which way you look at it.

The other point I'd make is that for all the virtues of having a long serving manager, the default position is that they will get stale. SAF has bucked the trend, but that is because he has always shared the burden by having a number 2 who can challenge him. Wenger has done the opposite - even, it would seem, with Steve Bould who clearly has no autonomy, because I simply don't believe that Bould would tolerate Santos, or Vermaelen's form.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.

There are no willing runners. Gaps don't just appear by themselves, they're created by off the ball movement and at the moment we have none of that going on. It's just pass pass pass while the other team easily keeps their shape because they don't have anyone running in behind them to worry about.

[Power n Glory]

I kind of agree with you - for me, its a question of whether Wenger decides himself to leave. I mean you can hide behind the stadium project all you like, but there has to come a time at which you see how far your footballing legacy has come crashing down. For me, footballing wise AW continues to pat himself on the back (and in fairness, with some justification) for delivering CL football. When he no longer does so - and his stock has fallen so low that he cannot even draw the project players he wants to - I can see him walking...and I am probably one of the only people who doesn;t want him to move upstairs either, because his power and ego will end up screwing over whoever we get in.

Its going to be messy any which way you look at it.

The other point I'd make is that for all the virtues of having a long serving manager, the default position is that they will get stale. SAF has bucked the trend, but that is because he has always shared the burden by having a number 2 who can challenge him. Wenger has done the opposite - even, it would seem, with Steve Bould who clearly has no autonomy, because I simply don't believe that Bould would tolerate Santos, or Vermaelen's form.

I don't think Bould would persist with this zonal marking plan either. I doubt anyone would want Wenger on the Board or involved with the club after he has gone. But he will and will probably be able to appoint his replacement.

[Kano]

zonal marking is nothing new. brian clough used it for christs sake.

everyone does it in open play. it seems to have become the new buzz word, like 'contact' fed to us by sky.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.



I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.


Not sure anyone does.


Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

Cause instead of using the brains, they need to be told what to do, just cause someone says pass pass, don''t mean if you find another way don't do it.


With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

zonal marking is nothing new. brian clough used it for christs sake.

everyone does it in open play. it seems to have become the new buzz word, like 'contact' fed to us by sky.

For set pieces and regardless who used it in the past, we're no good it and need to man mark players for corners and set pieces.

[Kano]

man marking still concedes goals and no-one criticises that. it's no magic fix.

have all the systems you want in place but if players switch, as ours regularly do, it won't make a difference.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I kind of agree with you - for me, its a question of whether Wenger decides himself to leave. I mean you can hide behind the stadium project all you like, but there has to come a time at which you see how far your footballing legacy has come crashing down. For me, footballing wise AW continues to pat himself on the back (and in fairness, with some justification) for delivering CL football. When he no longer does so - and his stock has fallen so low that he cannot even draw the project players he wants to - I can see him walking...and I am probably one of the only people who doesn;t want him to move upstairs either, because his power and ego will end up screwing over whoever we get in.



Its going to be messy any which way you look at it.

The other point I'd make is that for all the virtues of having a long serving manager, the default position is that they will get stale. SAF has bucked the trend, but that is because he has always shared the burden by having a number 2 who can challenge him. Wenger has done the opposite - even, it would seem, with Steve Bould who clearly has no autonomy, because I simply don't believe that Bould would tolerate Santos, or Vermaelen's form.


Not really the board have said they would never sack him, so he will walk when he is ready not before. If he is about money, now then i don't think he'd be bothered about his reputation. His problem is he likes to stick to his principles. Which is fine sometimes though, you need to be less stubborn and admit when your wrong. He knows Project youth failed, henced why he has changed it up, but he will never say it failed.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

For set pieces and regardless who used it in the past, we're no good it and need to man mark players for corners and set pieces.

What does it matter when you have defenders like Dojo in your team, shit is shit no matter what marking you use lol.

[server too busy!]

We need proper wingers, having Podolski on the left just basically means we're a man down. He isn't a winger and can't take people on so he ends up passing back and we just play through the middle. Its so easy to defend.

When Arshavin came on you could see an immediate change. Same goes for Ramsey. We need proper wingers, Podolski and Giroud can take it in turns up front depending on the opposition. As soon as we get more width we will become more a threat and Giroud can be utilised properly.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Was reading Arseblog and this part struck me.



As LDG said also, we could see Arteta was getting marked out of the game but he did nothing for entire match. I don't particularly rate Arteta as a DM because he's not mobile enough or comfortable enough to drop deep, turn and pass the ball off quickly to mount an attack. He's not strong enough to hold his man off either. I've always rated Song for being able to do this with ease when playing as a DM and it really helped players like Cesc to just roam forward and find space. Fergie was in the stands and looked at where to target and he made sure all the attacks came down Santos' side and stuck Rooney on Arteta and kept a tight leash on Cazorla.

Wenger has lost it. He's stale, stubborn and we can all see it. Now the question is, how can things change? He won't listen to his players. People may disagree with RVP telling Wenger who to sign, but the captain should be able to speak to his coach about these things especially if you are asking him to commit his final years to this club. Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again. So what are the options if he won't listen to his players, ex players, critics and pundits and seems blind to the results we see week in week out?

A boycott of games would be fantastic but failing that, the fans just need to kick up a right stink at the Emirates so the message is loud and clear. It seems like the only way now.

It would be, but it won't happen, fans say this every year and we see a little protest and they go back for more.


Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again

Henry wanted to win the CL and he knew he could never do that with us, whether he was lied to is a different issue. Henry would not have stayed anyways. RVP was different.

The question we need to ask ourselves is why the board have let Wenger get away with so much. Like you have always said, he has so much authority at the club its stupid.

Its clear he needs a figure like Dein to give him a nudge, he clearly listened to Dein, no one can deny that. I mean we don't know the board could have given him lots of warnings, but i doubt they have.

They should never have let him and Ivan have the run of the club. Its simple.

"Arsene your job is to manage the team", I've always hated the idea managers being involved in transfers. Do it the barca way, where they have people to do it for them and let the manager focus on the team.

"Ivan your job Sort out the deals"

Ambition starts from the bottom to the top. If Roman does not have ambition, he don't employ a manager who does.

[Power n Glory]

man marking still concedes goals and no-one criticises that. it's no magic fix.

have all the systems you want in place but if players switch, as ours regularly do, it won't make a difference.

Of course it's not a magic fix but it makes very little sense in playing a system that puts the players at a disadvantage. It's all well and good talking about Brian Clough, but this is Wenger. Why persist with a system that makes us vulnerable? We conceded less from set pieces last season and looked more comfortable dealing with them.

[Syn]

About defending set-pieces, I think we're ok. Not perfect but who is. We have looked weaker than last season and I think a lot of that is down to not having a dominant Szczesny. Plucking balls out of the air is Szczesny's main strength and was solid throughout last season. Need him back and on form and we'll look less vulnerable. But, again, how many league goals have we conceded from set-pieces this season? Statistically we have to compare quite well. For all the focus on defending (even Wenger said we lost the game because of a defensive error), it's creating chances that's the biggest problem atm. No easy out-ball out wide is killing us.

[Kano]

Of course it's not a magic fix but it makes very little sense in playing a system that puts the players at a disadvantage. It's all well and good talking about Brian Clough, but this is Wenger. Why persist with a system that makes us vulnerable? We conceded less from set pieces last season and looked more comfortable dealing with them.
the point is, this system is nothing new and its being banded about as some sort of new fangled conception that is ruining defending.

playing zonal, man or dick marking it won't make a slight bit of difference. if we were man marking, would it then be better for us to switch to zonal? because exactly the same things would be happening.

every team zonal marks in open play and mostly when defending - its just more 'tactical' nonsense thrown out there without much thought.

[LDG]

About defending set-pieces, I think we're ok. Not perfect but who is. We have looked weaker than last season and I think a lot of that is down to not having a dominant Szczesny. Plucking balls out of the air is Szczesny's main strength and was solid throughout last season. Need him back and on form and we'll look less vulnerable. But, again, how many league goals have we conceded from set-pieces this season? Statistically we have to compare quite well. For all the focus on defending (even Wenger said we lost the game because of a defensive error), it's creating chances that's the biggest problem atm. No easy out-ball out wide is killing us.

Pretty much.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

About defending set-pieces, I think we're ok. Not perfect but who is. We have looked weaker than last season and I think a lot of that is down to not having a dominant Szczesny. Plucking balls out of the air is Szczesny's main strength and was solid throughout last season. Need him back and on form and we'll look less vulnerable. But, again, how many league goals have we conceded from set-pieces this season? Statistically we have to compare quite well. For all the focus on defending (even Wenger said we lost the game because of a defensive error), it's creating chances that's the biggest problem atm. No easy out-ball out wide is killing us.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't think Bould would persist with this zonal marking plan either. I doubt anyone would want Wenger on the Board or involved with the club after he has gone. But he will and will probably be able to appoint his replacement.

Thats not what they say. PHW and CO i mean. End of the day even if Wenger is upstairs and a new manager comes in he has no control of the team, which is where he is failing.

[Niall_Quinn]

the point is, this system is nothing new and its being banded about as some sort of new fangled conception that is ruining defending.

playing zonal, man or dick marking it won't make a slight bit of difference. if we were man marking, would it then be better for us to switch to zonal? because exactly the same things would be happening.

every team zonal marks in open play and mostly when defending - its just more 'tactical' nonsense thrown out there without much thought.

I think N5 is too big a zone tbh. Players like Santos and Vermaelen need to get a little tighter.

[Power n Glory]

the point is, this system is nothing new and its being banded about as some sort of new fangled conception that is ruining defending.

playing zonal, man or dick marking it won't make a slight bit of difference. if we were man marking, would it then be better for us to switch to zonal? because exactly the same things would be happening.

every team zonal marks in open play and mostly when defending - its just more 'tactical' nonsense thrown out there without much thought.

In an already chaotic and undisciplined defence, that seems to lose concentration, zonal marking makes it too easy for attacking players to get an unchallenged header on goal because our boys have failed to spot the danger or can't get enough spring in their jump to clear the ball.

Also, going back to the original point, is this something Bould has insisted on or this the way Wenger wants us to defend?

[Kano]

Some horrible stats:


Arsenal have still got the best defence in the league, conceding eight goals. But take out the Southampton game & we've scored 9 in 9 games


For the second PL away game in a row, Arsenal didn't muster a shot on target until injury time at the end of the match.


Since the start of last season, Arsenal have made 18 individual errors leading to a goal – more than any other side in the Premier League.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

time for Bielsa or Klopp please

Gurdiola tbh. Which i think will happen at the end of the season.

[Kano]

I think N5 is too big a zone tbh. Players like Santos and Vermaelen need to get a little tighter.
zone two should cover it

[IBK]

Not really the board have said they would never sack him, so he will walk when he is ready not before. If he is about money, now then i don't think he'd be bothered about his reputation. His problem is he likes to stick to his principles. Which is fine sometimes though, you need to be less stubborn and admit when your wrong. He knows Project youth failed, henced why he has changed it up, but he will never say it failed.

er, so...its a question of whether Wenger decides himself to leave?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

er, so...its a question of whether Wenger decides himself to leave?

Id say its a question of when he decides to leave, but its clear he has the say when he leaves.

[selassie]

I've seen it said that Saturday's 2-1 defeat was as bad as last year's 8-2, and while this stretches a point I can see the argument. Last year we caught them when we were in turmoil, transfer wise, and they were irrepressible. This year we were utterley dominated by a Manure team who barely got out of second gear. So 14 months on, and this time with transfer business concluded a long time ago, did this game underline in a revealing way why our manager's time is up?

Team selection? Clueless; incompetent and stubborn. Perservering with Santos at LB and Ramsey at RM was folly, and everyone in football apart from Wenger could see it. Arguably, even the selection of Vermaelen, who is woefully out of form, incapable of providing leadership, and gifting a goal a game these days was a mistake. Not to mention his failure to start Walcott, or to consider Oxlade Chamberlain. Wenger has always stated that he does not consider the opposition when setting up his team. It would seem now that he isn't able objectively to consider the performance of his own team.

Player positioning? Podolski on the left is clearly not working. Giroud up front with no service is pointless. Arteta at DM is too easy to mark out of the game. Theo - the best finisher we have, but Wenger would rather play Gervinho up front than Theo. We are a much better team on paper than we are on the pitch - and this team is increasingly looking like Wenger's vanity project more than anything else. It doesn't matter that he is bringling in more seasoned, experienced players. The advantage is being lost, because the manager simply refuses to play to their strengths. Saturday was a prime example of several players looking like they were playing a game utterly unnatural to them.

Team set up. This is a team and formation that can only be explained by the idea that it is set up around having a Diaby in MF. Wake up Wenger. We will never have a Diaby in MF for more than the odd game. Our style of football increasingly seems not to have really evolved since the Fabregas project. Only now, we have inferior players to play it. Wenger's brand of foolball looks not only stale - but almost as though it is the easiest type of football to play against - both in attack and in defence. All the opposition needs to do is to wait for the inevitable mistake. Norwich found it easly; Reading first half midweek...followed by a Manure team that looked almost bored by the lack of challenge on Saturday. Very difficult not to conclude that Wenger has run out of ideas and direction.

Motivation. Ferguson described this fixture pre-match as a 'hard-ish' game. I mean that comment alone would have been all the motivation that any team in the league needed to put in a display. Arsenal looked like they didn't care. Not about the veiled insult. Not about the fact that they looked a division lower than our old arch rivals, and even about making life difficult for Manure - still less about winning the game. Instead, we see that buffoon Santos swapping shirts with the captain that turned his back on us and who had scored against us for Manure, at half time. Second half against Reading aside, we look like a broken team. No belief, no spirit, no drive, no fight. It is the manager who is responsible for this. Rio Ferdinand spoke about how Ferguson buys personalities as well as players. Wenger represses personality - all he wants is characterless drones who do exactly what he wants them to do because his ego can't stand a challenge. So there is nothing shown on the pitch, and Wenger has clearly lost the ability to inspire off it. If he cannot get himself and his team up to play his oldest rival, in a fixture that resulted in such total humiliation last year than I would say that the writing is on the wall.

Regard for the club. Lets get this straight. I think the manager loves the club. But I think that we now need to ask what does this mean. I think that Wenger loves the club in the same way that you might love a faithful Labrador. A pet that exists to do his bidding. Re the team selection and other issues above, I think it is becoming unacceptable that the manager demonstrates such arrogance in perservering with policies, choices and risks that are almost doomed to fail - when the reality is that half of his tenure has now been trophyless.


This might be a bit of a ramble, and I know that all of the points made have been made before, but to see where we have come to against Wenger's oldest and fiercest rival, having been given a year to show that he has moved on since the nadir of last year seems like a watershed to me. I have always wanted to be convinced that Wenger still has it, but finally now I accept that there is no bounce back. I think the sooner his tenure ends now, the better.

Excellent post Sub. Like many others I'm starting to feel numb about this season, we've had a really poor start and our latest slump has really brought home what this team is or isn't about.

For all my cries of "Wenger" out and I've wanted him out for a good few seasons now I do believe that putting aside the financial debate, Wenger really isn't a great tactical manager, I would go as far as to say he's not even one of the best managers out there now, there are a few in Europe and domestically who I comfortably rate above him as a Football Manager. Wenger is too inflexible and rigid in his approach to the get the best out of this team and it's to the detriment of the team.

Wenger is like a relic, a piece of history. In Football terms he's only reveered for what he has done, not what he is currently doing.

We here these arguments regularly "Arsenal fans are mad for wanting Wenger out, look at what he has DONE for the club", done being the key word here.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I just don't get what we're doing because we aren't aping Barcelona; as technical as they are - they still always have at least two players with pace and have about a gabillion willing runners. Having said all that, this isn't the first time we've played at Old Trafford and been beaten easily.

[LDG]

I just don't get what we're doing because we aren't aping Barcelona; as technical as they are - they still always have at least two players with pace and have about a gabillion willing runners. Having said all that, this isn't the first time we've played at Old Trafford and been beaten easily.

That is what is so frustrating.

We know it's one of the toughest games of the season, yet our manager persists with the most predictable line-up and set of tactics, since Sam Allardyce first told a player to "give it some welly".

If we wanted anything out of this game, we needed to test them out in their weak areas. Show their team some respect by trying to nullify their threats.

But even more basic than that. We needed to iron out a few of our own problems, which were even more obvious. But we did absolutely nothing.

Then we get into the game, we have no talking, no encouragement, no adaptation, NOTHING.

It's embarrassing.

[Özim]

man marking still concedes goals and no-one criticises that. it's no magic fix.

have all the systems you want in place but if players switch, as ours regularly do, it won't make a difference.
With total buffoons at the back zonal marking will never work, for it to work you need intelligent players who can react and work together.

At least with man marking they have one person they can see to follow around, although sometimes you wonder whether that would be too much for them as well, Wenger will probably put the smallest player in our team against the tallest in the oppositions.

[Kano]

sure, ok.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

With total buffoons at the back zonal marking will never work, for it to work you need intelligent players who can react and work together.

At least with man marking they have one person they can see to follow around, although sometimes you wonder whether that would be too much for them as well, Wenger will probably put the smallest player in our team against the tallest in the oppositions.

Problem is with our fullbacks and Captain always bombing forward for some reason, their minds will never be on marking, unless you mean from set pieces.

[IBK]

Excellent post Sub. Like many others I'm starting to feel numb about this season, we've had a really poor start and our latest slump has really brought home what this team is or isn't about.

For all my cries of "Wenger" out and I've wanted him out for a good few seasons now I do believe that putting aside the financial debate, Wenger really isn't a great tactical manager, I would go as far as to say he's not even one of the best managers out there now, there are a few in Europe and domestically who I comfortably rate above him as a Football Manager. Wenger is too inflexible and rigid in his approach to the get the best out of this team and it's to the detriment of the team.

Wenger is like a relic, a piece of history. In Football terms he's only reveered for what he has done, not what he is currently doing.

We here these arguments regularly "Arsenal fans are mad for wanting Wenger out, look at what he has DONE for the club", done being the key word here.

Thanks. For me, there have of course been concerns with the manager for a while. However, I have defended him against the vastly superior spending power of the top 3, backed him when he has got rid of want away players that I think the club has been generally powerless to keep, and been prepared to see what he can do with a new policy of purchasing established stars rather than youngsters.

But it has become clear to me that he has lost the insight into the game, and particularly the objectivity as to the effectiveness of his methods, that he once had. Lets face it, Wenger has never been a tactician. He has relied on his vision as to how the game should be played, his willingness to give players the freedom to express themselves on the pitch, and a sharp eye for talent. All three are now being shown up.

His vision as to how the game should be played is both out of step with the talent at his disposal, and ill suited for the English game, where counter attacking is king. We are a dream for any counter-attacking team to play - whether it is those teams such as Manure and Citeh, and lately Chelsea who do so by design, or those teams (the majority of the bottom half of the league) who primarily want to defend and then nick a sucker punch while they can. Yet Wenger cannot see this. His obsession with possession play leaves us far too high up the pitch and without fluidity and movement in the final third. There is no consistent end product, and finding the available openings requires his MF's to be on the level of Cazorla, and his strikers to be on the level of RVP. The manager does not seem to realise that the vast majority of his attacking players are either not being played to their strengths, or are simply not good enough. And the overall quality falls year on year.

Hand in hand with this is the scant attention he places on, or his inability to equip his players to play the opposition. It might be fine to ask a Henry; Vieira; Pires; Ljungberg; Nasri; Fabregas or Van Persie to express yourselves. They all had the quality to read the game and to do so. Carzorla and Arshavin aside (and Wenger has killed the latter) none of our current crop can thrive in this environment. It almost seems ridiculous that you should not try to make it as easy as possible for your players by telling them what to do; playing them where they are most effective, and exposing the weaknesses of the opposition. The lowliest Championship manager will try to do this, and the likes of SAF do there straightforward things very well. Without the talent and the independence of thought that is needed on the pitch for Wenger's approach to work, he might as well be sending his players out with their arms tied behind their backs.

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

Then we look at his eye for talent. I do not want to be revisionist, and clearly Wenger has unearthed some real talent over the years, but since the youth project his ability appears to be diminishing. I put this down to 2 things. First he seems to be motivated by an obsession to find something different in players even where they are tried and tested - hence either he plays them out of position or he assumes that they will work in his system, when they are not suited to do so. Again, it seems almost as though there is a blueprint that every player has to confirm to. Secondly, he seems obsessed with showing the world that he can unearth hidden talent. But for every Jenkinson, we have a Santos; a Chamakh; a Denilson; a Ramsey...

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; too myopic to see his mistakes, and too set in his ways to change them.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Thanks. For me, there have of course been concerns with the manager for a while. However, I have defended him against the vastly superior spending power of the top 3, backed him when he has got rid of want away players that I think the club has been generally powerless to keep, and been prepared to see what he can do with a new policy of purchasing established stars rather than youngsters.

But it has become clear to me that he has lost the insight into the game, and particularly the objectivity as to the effectiveness of his methods, that he once had. Lets face it, Wenger has never been a tactician. He has relied on his vision as to how the game should be played, his willingness to give players the freedom to express themselves on the pitch, and a sharp eye for talent. All three are now being shown up.

His vision as to how the game should be played is both out of step with the talent at his disposal, and ill suited for the English game, where counter attacking is king. We are a dream for any counter-attacking team to play - whether it is those teams such as Manure and Citeh, and lately Chelsea who do so by design, or those teams (the majority of the bottom half of the league) who primarily want to defend and then nick a sucker punch while they can. Yet Wenger cannot see this. His obsession with possession play leaves us far too high up the pitch and without fluidity and movement in the final third. There is no consistent end product, and finding the available openings requires his MF's to be on the level of Cazorla, and his strikers to be on the level of RVP. The manager does not seem to realise that the vast majority of his attacking players are either not being played to their strengths, or are simply not good enough. And the overall quality falls year on year.

Hand in hand with this is the scant attention he places on, or his inability to equip his players to play the opposition. It might be fine to ask a Henry; Vieira; Pires; Ljungberg; Nasri; Fabregas or Van Persie to express yourselves. They all had the quality to read the game and to do so. Carzorla and Arshavin aside (and Wenger has killed the latter) none of our current crop can thrive in this environment. It almost seems ridiculous that you should not try to make it as easy as possible for your players by telling them what to do; playing them where they are most effective, and exposing the weaknesses of the opposition. The lowliest Championship manager will try to do this, and the likes of SAF do there straightforward things very well. Without the talent and the independence of thought that is needed on the pitch for Wenger's approach to work, he might as well be sending his players out with their arms tied behind their backs.

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

Then we look at his eye for talent. I do not want to be revisionist, and clearly Wenger has unearthed some real talent over the years, but since the youth project his ability appears to be diminishing. I put this down to 2 things. First he seems to be motivated by an obsession to find something different in players even where they are tried and tested - hence either he plays them out of position or he assumes that they will work in his system, when they are not suited to do so. Again, it seems almost as though there is a blueprint that every player has to confirm to. Secondly, he seems obsessed with showing the world that he can unearth hidden talent. But for every Jenkinson, we have a Santos; a Chamakh; a Denilson; a Ramsey...

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; to myopic to see his mistakes, and to set in his ways to change them.

:gp:

You can tell he is cracking up too, The Utd game, where he had that rant, showed the pressure is getting to him.


And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; to myopic to see his mistakes, and to set in his ways to change them

And whats funny about this, is he is hurting himself, putting more pressure on himself, if he is not careful he could end up really ill.

[Niall_Quinn]

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

That's the only explanation. We play percentages based on statistical analysis of each individual and (I'd guess) in total isolation of corresponding analysis of the other team. If we can be 66.38 efficient over 51.27 games then our final league position will be 3.84, or rounded to 4th place trophy spot. This is the only explanation that fits the evidence. GPS vests, carefully regimented substitutions, playing out of position perhaps but maybe he's looking at distance covered in total, distance covered over the first second, average interceptions, some set of stats that should theoretically give us an edge but don't hold up on a chaotic football pitch. Or maybe they do, 15 seasons in the CL says they might. But how frustrating when we end up throwing away 5.92 games to inferior opposition who we could have beaten easily with just a touch of ingenuity (or even common sense).

This is like setting up a metronome beside the bed before you have a fuck and then counting down to pre-planned orgasm regardless of what the bird is up to. She could have headed off and made coffee for all you care because it's the counting that's important. Timing that cum shot just right. You're the world's greatest lover because the stats don't lie.

[LDG]

:haha:

[Letters]

We've not been very good recently but I think it's a little early to pull the trigger just yet.

We've had 10 games so far in the league, 6 away and 4 at home. Two of the away games have been the two Manchester clubs, the one we lost at home was Chelsea. We've only got one point from those 3 games but I think most on here accept they're all better sides than us. A point away at City was a good result, it's more than most teams will get this year. I didn't see the Chelsea game for various reasons but understand we were pretty unlucky to lose. Yesterday we were poor though and we've not looked good recently. The gap yesterday was depressing but early season we looked pretty decent. I'm not sure where it's gone wrong but we didn't look like such a bad side.

If we can recapture that form then we'll finish 4th comfortably, if not then it'll be a struggle but the other candidates for 4th are all looking pretty poor too so it's there for the taking for whoever gets their act together.

We've got 2 home games next, Fulham and Spurs. Both sides who are close to us in the table.
Win those and we'll be fairly comfortably 4th and things will feel better.

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

:haha:

:gp: :haha:

letters :haha:

[LDG]

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

Well, clearly that is a worry....but shouldn't we be concerned with the whole thing?

Yet another individual error cost is the first goal. I'm sorry, but if your captain isn't switched on, two minutes into the game, agains the best striker in the league, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the game.

This is about us being utter turd all over the pitch at the moment. I can't think of one player who has played well just recently.

Actually, I can. Jenkinson. And he was dropped.

[Syn]

Gibbs was of super quality performance level 9/10 before his death too.

[Kano]

We've not been very good recently but I think it's a little early to pull the trigger just yet.

We've had 10 games so far in the league, 6 away and 4 at home. Two of the away games have been the two Manchester clubs, the one we lost at home was Chelsea. We've only got one point from those 3 games but I think most on here accept they're all better sides than us. A point away at City was a good result, it's more than most teams will get this year. I didn't see the Chelsea game for various reasons but understand we were pretty unlucky to lose. Yesterday we were poor though and we've not looked good recently. The gap yesterday was depressing but early season we looked pretty decent. I'm not sure where it's gone wrong but we didn't look like such a bad side.

If we can recapture that form then we'll finish 4th comfortably, if not then it'll be a struggle but the other candidates for 4th are all looking pretty poor too so it's there for the taking for whoever gets their act together.

We've got 2 home games next, Fulham and Spurs. Both sides who are close to us in the table.
Win those and we'll be fairly comfortably 4th and things will feel better.

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

even when we lost pace in recent years, we usually had a creative output somewhere. the last time things were this bad was post xmas when we signed arshavin; we went something like a dozen league games unbeaten with most of them goalless draws.

with no obvious goal scorer leading the line and no big player to stand up and take that initiative this is the most worried i've felt about our team under wenger.

take away that goal fest against the worst defence ever in the prem (southampton) and it's 9 goals in 9 games.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Uhm....

:haha:

[Letters]

The whole thing is a worry but there were times last season when we looked very poor. Other times we looked pretty good.

We had RvP to bail us out last year and Song played him in quite frequently but with Carzola, Giroud and Podolski we should have enough in theory to score goals.

There is something going badly wrong at the moment but we're not suddenly a terrible team.

[fakeyank]

This is like setting up a metronome beside the bed before you have a fuck and then counting down to pre-planned orgasm regardless of what the bird is up to. She could have headed off and made coffee for all you care because it's the counting that's important. Timing that cum shot just right. You're the world's greatest lover because the stats don't lie.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Power n Glory]

The whole thing is a worry but there were times last season when we looked very poor. Other times we looked pretty good.

We had RvP to bail us out last year and Song played him in quite frequently but with Carzola, Giroud and Podolski we should have enough in theory to score goals.

There is something going badly wrong at the moment but we're not suddenly a terrible team.

It's worrying that you keep saying the same thing each year.

[Letters]

It's worrying that you keep saying the same thing each year.
I say the same thing because the same thing happens each year :shrug:

[Marc Overmars]

If you don't have willing runners you can't expect to create many chances. Woolchild and Catzola carry the ball well but they become pointless if they can't pick gaps to slide a ball through. Giroud is clearly a player who needs service but what can he expect to recieve from Podolski and Ramsey, 2 players who are asked to operate on the wing despite having no pace or trickery. There's just nothing industrious about what we're doing, I couldn't believe when Ramsey managed to dart into the box the other day, IIRC not a single player was in the box sniffing out any potential chance, so that just left him with no choice but to drill the ball at the keeper and hope for the best.

I don't know what our style of play is now, it's neither here nor there.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If you don't have willing runners you can't expect to create many chances. Woolchild and Catzola carry the ball well but they become pointless if they can't pick gaps to slide a ball through. Giroud is clearly a player who needs service but what can he expect to recieve from Podolski and Ramsey, 2 players who are asked to operate on the wing despite having no pace or trickery. There's just nothing industrious about what we're doing, I couldn't believe when Ramsey managed to dart into the box the other day, IIRC not a single player was in the box sniffing out any potential chance, so that just left him with no choice but to drill the ball at the keeper and hope for the best.

I don't know what our style of play is now, it's neither here nor there.

Should have got Isco tbh.

[selassie]

Thanks. For me, there have of course been concerns with the manager for a while. However, I have defended him against the vastly superior spending power of the top 3, backed him when he has got rid of want away players that I think the club has been generally powerless to keep, and been prepared to see what he can do with a new policy of purchasing established stars rather than youngsters.

But it has become clear to me that he has lost the insight into the game, and particularly the objectivity as to the effectiveness of his methods, that he once had. Lets face it, Wenger has never been a tactician. He has relied on his vision as to how the game should be played, his willingness to give players the freedom to express themselves on the pitch, and a sharp eye for talent. All three are now being shown up.

His vision as to how the game should be played is both out of step with the talent at his disposal, and ill suited for the English game, where counter attacking is king. We are a dream for any counter-attacking team to play - whether it is those teams such as Manure and Citeh, and lately Chelsea who do so by design, or those teams (the majority of the bottom half of the league) who primarily want to defend and then nick a sucker punch while they can. Yet Wenger cannot see this. His obsession with possession play leaves us far too high up the pitch and without fluidity and movement in the final third. There is no consistent end product, and finding the available openings requires his MF's to be on the level of Cazorla, and his strikers to be on the level of RVP. The manager does not seem to realise that the vast majority of his attacking players are either not being played to their strengths, or are simply not good enough. And the overall quality falls year on year.

Hand in hand with this is the scant attention he places on, or his inability to equip his players to play the opposition. It might be fine to ask a Henry; Vieira; Pires; Ljungberg; Nasri; Fabregas or Van Persie to express yourselves. They all had the quality to read the game and to do so. Carzorla and Arshavin aside (and Wenger has killed the latter) none of our current crop can thrive in this environment. It almost seems ridiculous that you should not try to make it as easy as possible for your players by telling them what to do; playing them where they are most effective, and exposing the weaknesses of the opposition. The lowliest Championship manager will try to do this, and the likes of SAF do there straightforward things very well. Without the talent and the independence of thought that is needed on the pitch for Wenger's approach to work, he might as well be sending his players out with their arms tied behind their backs.

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

Then we look at his eye for talent. I do not want to be revisionist, and clearly Wenger has unearthed some real talent over the years, but since the youth project his ability appears to be diminishing. I put this down to 2 things. First he seems to be motivated by an obsession to find something different in players even where they are tried and tested - hence either he plays them out of position or he assumes that they will work in his system, when they are not suited to do so. Again, it seems almost as though there is a blueprint that every player has to confirm to. Secondly, he seems obsessed with showing the world that he can unearth hidden talent. But for every Jenkinson, we have a Santos; a Chamakh; a Denilson; a Ramsey...

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; too myopic to see his mistakes, and too set in his ways to change them.

:gp:

[IBK]

This is like setting up a metronome beside the bed before you have a fuck and then counting down to pre-planned orgasm regardless of what the bird is up to. She could have headed off and made coffee for all you care because it's the counting that's important. Timing that cum shot just right. You're the world's greatest lover because the stats don't lie.

:lol: Priceless!

[IBK]

We've not been very good recently but I think it's a little early to pull the trigger just yet.

We've had 10 games so far in the league, 6 away and 4 at home. Two of the away games have been the two Manchester clubs, the one we lost at home was Chelsea. We've only got one point from those 3 games but I think most on here accept they're all better sides than us. A point away at City was a good result, it's more than most teams will get this year. I didn't see the Chelsea game for various reasons but understand we were pretty unlucky to lose. Yesterday we were poor though and we've not looked good recently. The gap yesterday was depressing but early season we looked pretty decent. I'm not sure where it's gone wrong but we didn't look like such a bad side.

If we can recapture that form then we'll finish 4th comfortably, if not then it'll be a struggle but the other candidates for 4th are all looking pretty poor too so it's there for the taking for whoever gets their act together.

We've got 2 home games next, Fulham and Spurs. Both sides who are close to us in the table.
Win those and we'll be fairly comfortably 4th and things will feel better.

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

I see where you are coming from, Letters, I really do - and I would have been inclined to raise some of the issues that you do until now - but as I've said, I see the Manure game as something of a Rubicon. Looking at this fixture, the overall quaestion for me is whether we have made any progress at all since Wenger decided to change tack at the beginning of last season and recruit experience. I'm afraid that the answer for me is that we simply haven't, and the common factor is Wenger. I see no plan; I see no characters (maybe apart from Wilshere), either individually or as a team; I think that the manager's methods have become outdated and too easy to play against - but most important at all, I see a manager who cannot raise his team - even for a match against the team who were our bitterest rivals a decade ago, who humiliated us last year, and who took our captain and best player. If this fixture does not raise our players to show what they are made of, then I'm afraid that I see no hope for this, or for any other of Wenger's teams. I agree that we do not have a bad team on paper - but right now we are toss on the pitch, and fundamentally flawed. And while we might put a little run together - and I'd agree that the teams around us are pretty shite as well - I'm afraid that I just don;t see us making progress. We are a quarter of the way through the season, and we are looking like our team at the beginning of last season - with fewer excuses for being shit.

[Fist of Lehmann]

We've sold our top scorer, our top assister and, for contractual reasons, frozen out the one remaining productive player in our team from last year.

It's a massive creative and goal-scoring burden to place on 3 EPL virgins, irregardless of their pedigree.

We have the 4th highest wage bill in the EPL and in general that means the smart money is on 4th. But we're talking probability only, and in any given season, there are many factors. You can still fuck up - look at Chelsea last year.

In 2 years we have systematically dismantled the most fundamental cogs of our team, that there are teething troubles now is entirely predictable. Last year was see-saw, this year quite possibly the same, so for now I can see it getting better, before it gets worse.

And then better again. And then possibly worse.

Year-on-year progress requires money, both for buying players and for retaining them, over and above the ridiculous rate of football inflation. What we're doing feels like running to stand still. Sooner or later, unless you're superhuman, you gonna slip up.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We've sold our top scorer, our top assister and, for contractual reasons, frozen out the one remaining productive player in our team from last year.

It's a massive creative and goal-scoring burden to place on 3 EPL virgins, irregardless of their pedigree.

We have the 4th highest wage bill in the EPL and in general that means the smart money is on 4th. But we're talking probability only, and in any given season, there are many factors. You can still fuck up - look at Chelsea last year.

In 2 years we have systematically dismantled the most fundamental cogs of our team, that there are teething troubles now is entirely predictable. Last year was see-saw, this year quite possibly the same, so for now I can see it getting better, before it gets worse.

And then better again. And then possibly worse.

Year-on-year progress requires money, both for buying players and for retaining them, over and above the ridiculous rate of football inflation. What we're doing feels like running to stand still. Sooner or later, unless you're superhuman, you gonna slip up.

:gp:

[Letters]

I see where you are coming from, Letters, I really do - and I would have been inclined to raise some of the issues that you do until now - but as I've said, I see the Manure game as something of a Rubicon. Looking at this fixture, the overall quaestion for me is whether we have made any progress at all since Wenger decided to change tack at the beginning of last season and recruit experience. I'm afraid that the answer for me is that we simply haven't, and the common factor is Wenger. I see no plan; I see no characters (maybe apart from Wilshere), either individually or as a team; I think that the manager's methods have become outdated and too easy to play against - but most important at all, I see a manager who cannot raise his team - even for a match against the team who were our bitterest rivals a decade ago, who humiliated us last year, and who took our captain and best player. If this fixture does not raise our players to show what they are made of, then I'm afraid that I see no hope for this, or for any other of Wenger's teams. I agree that we do not have a bad team on paper - but right now we are toss on the pitch, and fundamentally flawed. And while we might put a little run together - and I'd agree that the teams around us are pretty shite as well - I'm afraid that I just don;t see us making progress. We are a quarter of the way through the season, and we are looking like our team at the beginning of last season - with fewer excuses for being shit.Can't argue with any of that :(

[jelgoon]

I really disagree with Letters on this. I think he is being much too optimistic. I dont think the team is very good; sure, Jack will make a difference if hes fit and keeps calm but people forget how many times RVP rescued us last season and he's not around. Also I saw the Chelsea game and I dont think we were unlucky to lose at all - they were quite a bit better than us. More worrying though were the Norwich defeat and the poor performance against QPR who we were lucky to beat. We no longer have the belief to think we will beat the shit teams whilst we are almost certain to lose to the top ones.

[Kano]

I really disagree with Letters on this. I think he is being much too optimistic. I dont think the team is very good; sure, Jack will make a difference if hes fit and keeps calm but people forget how many times RVP rescued us last season and he's not around. Also I saw the Chelsea game and I dont think we were unlucky to lose at all - they were quite a bit better than us. More worrying though were the Norwich defeat and the poor performance against QPR who we were lucky to beat. We no longer have the belief to think we will beat the shit teams whilst we are almost certain to lose to the top ones.
i think he (and others) are right to say that yes, on paper we have some players good enough to at least maintain the status quo of fourth - but as we know this isn't Football Manager. it sort of disproves the theory that all you need to succeed is money, as that will allow you to buy the best talent and you'll walk it. by that reckoning, our talent pool should be enough to keep us in the top four. but man managing a team, ensuring the focus is there game after game, juggling the squad through injury, rotating through form, keeping the forwards sharp and mid/def as a tight unit...none of that comes easy. wenger has shown that over the past 7 years through a failed youth project and selling off our best whilst trying to replace with more experience yet that gelling process does not just click into place.

it was there from the very first game against sunderland as we struggled to find any sort of rhythm with so many new partnerships across the team, particularly in the front 5/6. too many changes in a short period has left us looking like a bunch of strangers happy to give the simple pass but not reading or having the confidence in each other to do something more risky. the problem with that is our style of play depends on a certain closeness and bond between the players to really get it ticking, otherwise it becomes very easy to defend against. the most worrying sign is the lack of goals so far and no matter what the previous issues with old wenger sides, there was always goals in them. we probably do here too but they are either out of position, on the bench or starting life in a new league.

[Letters]

I can't comment on the Chelsea game as I haven't seen any of it, just going on what I heard.
I did see the 2nd half of our game at City though and I thought we were good. We certainly deserved a point and not many clubs are going to get anything there this season. The early season form looked pretty good and while I've certainly not forgotten how many times RvP rescued us last year I thought early season we were looking like a side who would push the top 3 a bit harder.

The recent form has been worrying - Norwich could be dismissed as a 'bad day at the office', all teams have them, but the QPR performance was awful and we showed no fight on Saturday at all. I guess we'll only really know come May where we are. I don't think we're that good, but I don't think we're that bad either.

[Kano]

I can't comment on the Chelsea game as I haven't seen any of it, just going on what I heard.
I did see the 2nd half of our game at City though and I thought we were good. We certainly deserved a point and not many clubs are going to get anything there this season. The early season form looked pretty good and while I've certainly not forgotten how many times RvP rescued us last year I thought early season we were looking like a side who would push the top 3 a bit harder.

The recent form has been worrying - Norwich could be dismissed as a 'bad day at the office', all teams have them, but the QPR performance was awful and we showed no fight on Saturday at all. I guess we'll only really know come May where we are. I don't think we're that good, but I don't think we're that bad either.
we're not that bad really, in the context of this country. we're good (not right now but we will improve from this but just not enough to stay as we were) but is that good enough?

wenger is still a good manager, good enough for a top six finish but there is a tendency to call anyone outside the top 3/4 as shit. i'm not sure if people mean literally shit or they mean he isn't good enough for the expectations a club like ours generates - if the former then i can't even take that seriously but if the latter then yes, I think we're 'shit'; our standards should be and can be attainable with the resources we have.

[Özim]

we're not that bad really, in the context of this country. wenger is still a good manager, good enough for a top six finish but there is a tendency to call anyone outside the top 3/4 as shit. i'm not sure if people mean literally shit or they mean he isn't good enough for the expectations a club like ours generates - if the former then i can't even take that seriously but if the latter then yes, I think we're 'shit'; our standards should be and can be attainable with the resources we have.
It's all relative, I think most people mean in terms of our stature......we could be a lot better than we are, we're a very big club historically and ultimately moved to the new stadium to compete with the biggest clubs.

People talk about billionaires etc, but the stadium was supposed to have been built to compete with the best, that includes Barca and Real who have always spent loads and spent loads before we built our stadium.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

we're not that bad really, in the context of this country. we're good (not right now but we will improve from this but just not enough to stay as we were) but is that good enough?

wenger is still a good manager, good enough for a top six finish but there is a tendency to call anyone outside the top 3/4 as shit. i'm not sure if people mean literally shit or they mean he isn't good enough for the expectations a club like ours generates - if the former then i can't even take that seriously but if the latter then yes, I think we're 'shit'; our standards should be and can be attainable with the resources we have.

Spot on.

[Kano]

It's all relative, I think most people mean in terms of our stature......we could be a lot better than we are, we're a very big club historically and ultimately moved to the new stadium to compete with the biggest clubs.
yeah then i'd go with that myself. calling us 'shit' always sounds so harsh, given that being any sort of manager in the game is a massive ball ache. for a club of our standing and history as you say, we should and could be doing better than the road we've fallen on.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

People talk about billionaires etc, but the stadium was supposed to have been built to compete with the best, that includes Barca and Real who have always spent loads and spent loads before we built our stadium.

Yes in a way your right, the stadium i deal was thought of way way before the billionaires came into the game. It was around the times Dein wanted to move to Wembley.

So i guess at that time, i guess the idea we could compete would have been right. No one could have known the clubs would be sold to these rich dudes.

[Özim]

Yes in a way your right, the stadium i deal was thought of way way before the billionaires came into the game. It was around the times Dein wanted to move to Wembley.

So i guess at that time, i guess the idea we could compete would have been right. No one could have known the clubs would be sold to these rich dudes.
Real and Barca were around then though and spent large amounts even then, so I'm not sure how competing with them has changed.

[Kano]

Yes in a way your right, the stadium i deal was thought of way way before the billionaires came into the game. It was around the times Dein wanted to move to Wembley.

So i guess at that time, i guess the idea we could compete would have been right. No one could have known the clubs would be sold to these rich dudes.
ultimately the point was to grow us into a 'superclub' to sit alongside the other giants in europe. that is a different competitive world to the 'old' arsenal usually competing, having our little periods of success and remaining a stable club. walking into the world of the big boys, they should not really complain about others trying to muscle in using different methods. if you wanna be big it means ruthlessness on and off the pitch as the others already holding that status do not want to share and are always looking to get one over you.

the model is working, there is money available but internal politics - inclusive of wenger - means we are stuck in limbo trying to be the 'old' arsenal financially under the pretence we are heading for the big time.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Real and Barca were around then though and spent large amounts even then, so I'm not sure how competing with them has changed.

My point was at the time, it looked like the move would help us compete with them, Thats what the likes of Fizman, Dein and Co saw.

They never saw this as a money making scheme. The hope was we be successful by now. Obviously Its not gone that way for obvious reason.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Rubbish! We are god awful, heading in the wrong direction and the sooner this is realised and acted upon, the sooner we might make an about turn and start heading in the right direction.

The quality of the EPL is nowhere close to what it used to be, most of the teams are utter shit. Yet we are struggling to show some semblance of being a half decent team.

Luckily for us last season, Spuds faltered in the latter stages, allowing us to limp across the line in 3rd place. This season, 3rd place is definitely off the cards. I'll give Wenger enough credit and say he recognizes that much, so his aim will be 4th place. It is pretty much achievable but I get the feeling that towards the end of the season, our fate will be dependent on some other team bottling their shot at CL footie, gifting us that much coveted CL spot.

[Özim]

My point was at the time, it looked like the move would help us compete with them, Thats what the likes of Fizman, Dein and Co saw.

They never saw this as a money making scheme. The hope was we be successful by now. Obviously Its not gone that way for obvious reason.
Maybe, but in order to be successful you do have to invest in the team....we only invest some of the money we make from players sales.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

ultimately the point was to grow us into a 'superclub' to sit alongside the other giants in europe. that is a different competitive world to the 'old' arsenal usually competing, having our little periods of success and remaining a stable club. walking into the world of the big boys, they should not really complain about others trying to muscle in using different methods. if you wanna be big it means ruthlessness on and off the pitch as the others already holding that status do not want to share and are always looking to get one over you.

the model is working, there is money available but internal politics - inclusive of wenger - means we are stuck in limbo trying to be the 'old' arsenal financially under the pretence we are heading for the big time.

True.

Though my point was the Vision of Dein and Co back then would have been diffrent to whats happening now. Like This was in the pipeline ages ago. So they would not have been thinking about Billionaires.

I would not even say project youth was the plan when this was decided.

[Cripps_orig]

Rubbish! We are god awful, heading in the wrong direction and the sooner this is realised and acted upon, the sooner we might make an about turn and start heading in the right direction.

The quality of the EPL is nowhere close to what it used to be, most of the teams are utter shit. Yet we are struggling to show some semblance of being a half decent team.

Luckily for us last season, Spuds faltered in the latter stages, allowing us to limp across the line in 3rd place. This season, 3rd place is definitely off the cards. I'll give Wenger enough credit and say he recognizes that much, so his aim will be 4th place. It is pretty much achievable but I get the feeling that towards the end of the season, our fate will be dependent on some other team bottling their shot at CL footie, gifting us that much coveted CL spot.

4th place in a way is out of our hands.

We all know how our season will go. It will be stop start through out, littered with shite performances, couple of decent wins etc etc The usual shit

However if Spuds dont bottle it this time as they did last time then they will get 4th piss easy. Whether or not we finish 4th is down to if they bottle it again

[Özil's Panoramic View]

4th place in a way is out of our hands.

We all know how our season will go. It will be stop start through out, littered with shite performances, couple of decent wins etc etc The usual shit

However if Spuds dont bottle it this time as they did last time then they will get 4th piss easy. Whether or not we finish 4th is down to if they bottle it again

100% agreed. Pretty much what I said in the last sentence only that I didn't single out Spuds as the team that will bottle it. So far, Everton and WBA are looking like they're willing to put up a fight. Whether they'll still be in 4th place contention towards the end of the season remains to be seen.

[Boss]

I think these sorts of threads pop up every season around this time, usually after we've lost to a big rival with a disappointing performance. I'm not saying that they're knee jerk, but on the whole I think we should learn to expect this from Arsenal sides till 2014 when hopefully things will change.

I used to be heavily against Wenger, for the reasons mentioned in this thread and a few others but to be honest if you look at the expected top three there's not really much we can do to compete. A team with the best manager in the world, miles ahead of his equivalents in this league, and two others with a combined net spend of around 110M, adding to squads that were already stronger than ours. Our team looks good on paper, I still believe that - give it a couple months and we'll play well, perhaps having a decent cup run with a chance of winning one of them. I don't think that the board believes we can win the league or the CL in football's current climate so we have decided not to go for either until things change - whether they do is another matter.

We're not the only team to have started poorly this season - everyone seems a bit off the pace, probably due to the Euros. Citeh were dire against West Ham, Chelsea average against Swansea and Tottenham dominated by Wigan at home. Due to the lack of serious competition we'll finish fourth yet again which is the maximum we can expect. I will slaughter Wenger if he does not treat the cups with the respect they should get, but expect this to continue in the league.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think we can really use the "top 3 have more resources than us" excuse for how dire the performances have been over the past 6 weeks. It's not their fault we play Ramsey and Podolski as wingers, our captian is an accident waiting to happen or our LB is a clown and so on. These are managment issues and that's what Wenger is rightly being hammered for.

There is a level of understanding I think towards the financial aspect because it's obvious we can't throw around the sort of money the top 3 can, but when problems reguarly manifest on-field you've got to look closer to home.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

I don't think we can really use the "top 3 have more resources than us" excuse for how dire the performances have been over the past 6 weeks. It's not their fault we play Ramsey and Podolski as wingers, our captian is an accident waiting to happen or our LB is a clown. These are managment issues and that's what Wenger is rightly being hammered for.

Especially when you lose to Norwich and only manage 1 shot on target, a team with far far less resources than us and they have grant fucking holt.

[LDG]

Grant FUCKING HOLT!!!

Still can't believe it :angry:

[Letters]

Especially when you lose to Norwich and only manage 1 shot on target, a team with far far less resources than us and they have grant fucking holt.You will always get one off results like that. All teams have off days.
This isn't just one off day though, I accept. We've had a fairly extended run of poor form but I do believe that we're better than recent form suggests.

[Power n Glory]

You will always get one off results like that. All teams have off days.
This isn't just one off day though, I accept. We've had a fairly extended run of poor form but I do believe that we're better than recent form suggests.

Not convinced by this team at all. Wenger will have to make a lot if changes to the first team before I'm convinced.

[Letters]

Not convinced by this team at all. Wenger will have to make a lot if changes to the first team before I'm convinced.
I'm not convinced by the way they're playing at the moment. The way we were early season looked pretty good.
I don't know what's gone wrong recently but I don't believe we've suddenly become a poor side. Hopefully we can sort it out.

[IBK]

I take the valid points people are making that we are not 'shit' relative to the whole of the league, and yes, other teams may well bottle it.

But like Wenger, I prefer to look at our own team. And I have come to the conclusion that we are underperforming badly given the players and the resources at our disposal. We have the top scorer for the best team in France last season, and a very experience German international up front - yet they are misfiring badly. We have the best RB in the league; a prodigy from Spain as our creative MF; the fastest winger (and one of the best finishers) in the league. We have (in Arteta) one of the most reliable MF's around....and we are looking like a dog's dinner.

Its not the relative strengths of our players on paper, or the below par performances of other teams that concerns me - its the fact that we are clearly not playing to our players' strengths, have no real game plan, adn most importantly, no character, no life, no heart in this team of ours. Lets face it - when did we last go on a proper run when we played with proper fluency, and consistently prevailed against the opposition. We might have a scinitillating game, go on a little run of victories, but ultimately, it all comes back to performances like Norwich, like Manure. This seems somehow to be the default setting of Wenger's current teams - and there is something fundamentally wrong with this. The exception seems to be where you have utter prodigies like RVP or Fabregas - but for me this is a stupid way to set up your teams. The building blocks should be a system that gets the whole team playing to its strengths - with individual creativity/talent as the icing on the cake. We seem to do the opposite. I think that AW's whole style of play, while it might be suited to a team with Barca-like talent, is ill suited for the players that we are willing to attract to the club, and ill-suited for the EPL. That the manager persists regardless is stubborn and myopic.

And yes - be careful what you wish for etc. But there has to come a time where enough's enough. If this were the early years of transition - fair enough. But really, how many times over the past 7/8 years have we been where we are now? And every transfer season, its groundhog day. Clearly, the players can smell where we are going - and when you feature the talent that we lose every year, its hard to escape the conclusion that we are not just stagnating, we are in sharp decline.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I think these sorts of threads pop up every season around this time, usually after we've lost to a big rival with a disappointing performance. I'm not saying that they're knee jerk, but on the whole I think we should learn to expect this from Arsenal sides till 2014 when hopefully things will change.

I used to be heavily against Wenger, for the reasons mentioned in this thread and a few others but to be honest if you look at the expected top three there's not really much we can do to compete. A team with the best manager in the world, miles ahead of his equivalents in this league, and two others with a combined net spend of around 110M, adding to squads that were already stronger than ours. Our team looks good on paper, I still believe that - give it a couple months and we'll play well, perhaps having a decent cup run with a chance of winning one of them. I don't think that the board believes we can win the league or the CL in football's current climate so we have decided not to go for either until things change - whether they do is another matter.

We're not the only team to have started poorly this season - everyone seems a bit off the pace, probably due to the Euros. Citeh were dire against West Ham, Chelsea average against Swansea and Tottenham dominated by Wigan at home. Due to the lack of serious competition we'll finish fourth yet again which is the maximum we can expect. I will slaughter Wenger if he does not treat the cups with the respect they should get, but expect this to continue in the league.

:gp:

GP mentioned earlier that Giroud is a 30 goal striker being starved of service and I agree he is a goal getter but we are playing him in a system that suited RvP or at least he showed he could handle.

I dont get why Wenger persists with this formation when it is clear that it doesnt play to the guys strengths, I mean how many times did we hear that Giroud wasnt brought in to replace RvP! ?

I really do believe we should be playing two up top, if Giroud is the focal tghen Theo or Pods to play off him.
What I cant work out is what to do with the midfield. . .Cazorla, Arteta and Jack will be fighting for the centre and we cant ignore the need for a bit of steel there.

wings to be occuppied by who doesnt play up front. . .although it is starting to look like Pods is not best suited to wide left and Theo doesnt want to play wide. , .in Theos case I think we need to try him up front before giving him what he wants or fecks off

The defence, I suppose stays as it is? But we have to shoot Santos, the guy treats every game like a kick around in the park, awful player. . .stick Sagna left and bring back Ghelkinson.

But what about that midfield?

I agree Boss, Wenger needs to and should always have been serious about the cups

[LDG]

I take the valid points people are making that we are not 'shit' relative to the whole of the league, and yes, other teams may well bottle it.

But like Wenger, I prefer to look at our own team. And I have come to the conclusion that we are underperforming badly given the players and the resources at our disposal. We have the top scorer for the best team in France last season, and a very experience German international up front - yet they are misfiring badly. We have the best RB in the league; a prodigy from Spain as our creative MF; the fastest winger (and one of the best finishers) in the league. We have (in Arteta) one of the most reliable MF's around....and we are looking like a dog's dinner.

Its not the relative strengths of our players on paper, or the below par performances of other teams that concerns me - its the fact that we are clearly not playing to our players' strengths, have no real game plan, adn most importantly, no character, no life, no heart in this team of ours. Lets face it - when did we last go on a proper run when we played with proper fluency, and consistently prevailed against the opposition. We might have a scinitillating game, go on a little run of victories, but ultimately, it all comes back to performances like Norwich, like Manure. This seems somehow to be the default setting of Wenger's current teams - and there is something fundamentally wrong with this. The exception seems to be where you have utter prodigies like RVP or Fabregas - but for me this is a stupid way to set up your teams. The building blocks should be a system that gets the whole team playing to its strengths - with individual creativity/talent as the icing on the cake. We seem to do the opposite. I think that AW's whole style of play, while it might be suited to a team with Barca-like talent, is ill suited for the players that we are willing to attract to the club, and ill-suited for the EPL. That the manager persists regardless is stubborn and myopic.

And yes - be careful what you wish for etc. But there has to come a time where enough's enough. If this were the early years of transition - fair enough. But really, how many times over the past 7/8 years have we been where we are now? And every transfer season, its groundhog day. Clearly, the players can smell where we are going - and when you feature the talent that we lose every year, its hard to escape the conclusion that we are not just stagnating, we are in sharp decline.

Completely agree. Enough is enough now.

Szczesny, Sagna, Mertesecker, Vermaelen, Gibbs, Arteta, Cazorla, Wilshere, Walcott, Podolski, Giroud, Arshavin, Diaby, Kocielney, Rosicky etc etc

A clever, creative, experienced, fast, clinical, international, technical, powerful, goalscoring, quality squad.

Unfortunately, most of the time, they are: Lazy, inconsistent, head-turned, slow, wasteful, mistake-ridden, injured, arrogant, unfocused and poor.

Backed up by a second string who are just not good enough.

With a manager who won't spend, won't adapt, doesn't rate tactics, prioritises posession over everything else, doesn't shout, does nothing on the touchline, is more interested in business and politics.

Muddle that all together, and you have a complete and utter mess.

[Kano]

and that focus comes from the management.

if you have a group of guys you manage anywhere, you'll have some who you can leave to their own devices fully aware they'll knuckle down and always work hard but in the main, you leave a group unmanaged and they will find distractions and lose a lot of productivity.

it was always said that wenger had something of a 'hands off' approach to managing his teams, often not explaining decisions to them as he believed they should be smart enough to figure it out. which was fine when we had your pires', henrys', vieira's etc but when the personnel changes every season, you can't expect the old approach to keep working. it just isn't.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Completely agree. Enough is enough now.

Szczesny, Sagna, Mertesecker, Vermaelen, Gibbs, Arteta, Cazorla, Wilshere, Walcott, Podolski, Giroud, Arshavin, Diaby, Kocielney, Rosicky etc etc

A clever, creative, experienced, fast, clinical, international, technical, powerful, goalscoring, quality squad.

Unfortunately, most of the time, they are: Lazy, inconsistent, head-turned, slow, wasteful, mistake-ridden, injured, arrogant, unfocused and poor.

Backed up by a second string who are just not good enough.

With a manager who won't spend, won't adapt, doesn't rate tactics, prioritises posession over everything else, doesn't shout, does nothing on the touchline, is more interested in business and politics.

Muddle that all together, and you have a complete and utter mess.

TBF LDG mate, I think our second string would have put up a better fight!

[Power n Glory]

I'm not convinced by the way they're playing at the moment. The way we were early season looked pretty good.
I don't know what's gone wrong recently but I don't believe we've suddenly become a poor side. Hopefully we can sort it out.

We really haven't. We have only won 4 games. Liverpool was an open game against a new squad with a new coach that's adapting. Southampton are a newly promoted team. In our opening two games we struggled to create anything and it's been the same pattern in the majority of our games. We scraped a win against West Ham and QPR. We haven't looked good at all this season.

[Letters]

We really haven't. We have only won 4 games. Liverpool was an open game against a new squad with a new coach that's adapting. Southampton are a newly promoted team. In our opening two games we struggled to create anything and it's been the same pattern in the majority of our games. We scraped a win against West Ham and QPR. We haven't looked good at all this season.
I go to games. Early season we were looking good, plenty of people on here were saying so. It wasn't just me.

[Power n Glory]

I go to games. Early season we were looking good, plenty of people on here were saying so. It wasn't just me.

Early season optimism. We failed to create much against Sunderland and Stoke but we looked more solid in defence. Now that the new boys have settled in a bit more, that hungry has gone, we are still having the same creative problems but now the defence has lost the plot too. We weren't playing free flowing football.

[Letters]

There was no early season optimism. Before the season started after the RvP and Song sales everyone on here was :ilt:
Show me a thread (apart from the mindless one) indicating much optimism?
The optimism early season was because of the results and performances.

[LDG]

Early season optimism. We failed to create much against Sunderland and Stoke but we looked more solid in defence. Now that the new boys have settled in a bit more, that hungry has gone, we are still having the same creative problems but now the defence has lost the plot too. We weren't playing free flowing football.

Got to agree.

Fans can't be blamed for being optimistic. Hell, I was too. You have to have hope. Sadly, for me, it is being dashed with every pitiful performance.

Reading was great, purely because it's not often that we'll see games like that, or have the euphoria of pegging back a four goal deficit. But ultimately, the first half was an embarrassment.

We have been poor this season, and most of it is down to the manager, his wierd political gambles, and his unbelievable knack for humiliating the fans.

Are people seriously telling me that Szczesny has taken all this time to recover from an ankle injury, sustained in a match where he played the full second half, after he was injured?

Are we meant to believe that Walcott is really fifth in line to the starting line up, and that Ramsey is a right winger?

[Syn]

I think we'll start playing free-flowing football very soon when Jack gets fully up to speed. It's going to be Wilshere FC this season in our race for 4th.

[Kano]

Are people seriously telling me that Szczesny has taken all this time to recover from an ankle injury, sustained in a match where he played the full second half, after he was injured?

Are we meant to believe that Walcott is really fifth in line to the starting line up, and that Ramsey is a right winger?
yes, a little bit.

[selassie]

I think we'll start playing free-flowing football very soon when Jack gets fully up to speed. It's going to be Wilshere FC this season in our race for 4th.

And then Wilshere will be sold to Citeh or one of the others in the summer.

[Niall_Quinn]

And then Wilshere will be sold to Citeh or one of the others in the summer.

That won't happen. He's going to Utd.

[Letters]

That won't happen. He's going to Utd.
He's going to whoever gives us the most money
:dance:


:ilt:

[Marc Overmars]

Angry LDG scares me.

[Niall_Quinn]

Angry LDG scares me.

Scared MO arouses me.

[Power n Glory]

There was no early season optimism. Before the season started after the RvP and Song sales everyone on here was :ilt:
Show me a thread (apart from the mindless one) indicating much optimism?
The optimism early season was because of the results and performances.

People were optimistic about Cazorla and the defence looking better. We were all curious about how the new boys would fit in and when things weren't clicking, common sense said it's the opening two games and the team need time to gel.

We played well against Liverpool, but Brendan Rogere likes to play possession football as well which makes it easier on us. He's having to adapt to coaching a new team, which plays to our advantage and he wasn't going to sit back and try to counter attack or park the bus like most teams do either. Southampton are a newly promoted side and we tore them to shreds and after those two games, there was hope that we may actually be in with a good chance of winning something this year. But as Ice said, we soon reverted back to default mode and it's clear to see that this team struggles against certain tactics and the balance in the squad isn't right.

Out of our 4 wins in the league, two have looked convincing. That is pretty significant in my book. We haven't been shocking all season but we haven't looked good and had sustained run of good form as you suggest. We're yet to step into gear and we have probably had more toothless performances than good.

For example, the problem with Pod out wide has always been there. He's always had quiet games and never been a menace to wingbacks compared to how we see Theo, Arshavin or even Gervinho on a good day. In games where he has scored, he's been quiet on attack but worked hard on the flanks. Now he isn't working as hard on defence and I suspect that is a tactical decision by Wenger. Check out his recent comments on Theo, when he said the role of the winger is changing and they need to focus more on attack instead of defence. Podolski hasn't really found his stride in the team yet and it was noticable from early on. But, I thought it was more of case of him needing to adapt but now it seems like he is hit not suited out wide.

Our striker situation hasn't changed either. Giroud is still struggling and Wenger has no idea who his main striker is for the year. We're finding it hard to get him involved in games and it is probably why he's played Gervinho up front but he can be just as bad or worse because he is wasteful.

Our attack hasn't hit that free flowing football gear yet. We're not even in tippy tappy mode. At times it looks disjointed. The only way I can see things changing is if we start to get certain players back. Losing Diaby was a massive but predictable blow. If he were to get fit or if Wenger swallowed his pride and played Theo and Arshavin, I'd have more hope for our season. We shall see what he does tonight for the Schalke game.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ramsey in a bed with wheels on, on the wing. Giroud buried 6 feet under in the penalty box. Santos asleep in the centre circle. Mannone chasing butterflies around the touchline. TV leaping into a burning building to save orphans. Santi trying to preserve his dignity under a pile of sweaty Schalke bodies. Arteta handcuffed to the goal post. Wenger sitting on Walcott in the dugout. Arshavin eating cakes. Sagna talking to his agent. Pods trying to wake Santos up. Jack running around calling everyone a ****. It's on!

[Gervinho's Forehead]

Ramsey in a bed with wheels on, on the wing. Giroud buried 6 feet under in the penalty box. Santos asleep in the centre circle. Mannone chasing butterflies around the touchline. TV leaping into a burning building to save orphans. Santi trying to preserve his dignity under a pile of sweaty Schalke bodies. Arteta handcuffed to the goal post. Wenger sitting on Walcott in the dugout. Arshavin eating cakes. Sagna talking to his agent. Pods trying to wake Santos up. Jack running around calling everyone a ****. It's on!

Is he back tonight then?

[Niall_Quinn]

Is he back tonight then?

Walcott will be in the stands.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Brazilian left-back was slammed by supporters and boss Arsene Wenger for taking RVP’s shirt at half-time of Saturday’s 2-1 defeat to Manchester United.
Santos declared: “I’d like to apologise to supporters who felt aggrieved by it.
"Did I think it would cause such a commotion? Of course I didn’t, otherwise I would have told Robin to exchange the shirts away from public view.”


Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4629030/Andre-Santos-broke-his-silence-on-the-Robin-van-Persie-shirt-storm-to-say-SORRY-to-Arsenal-fans.html#ixzz2BRgSe583

It was the fact you wanted his shirt at all, Andre :doh:

[Letters]

People were optimistic about Cazorla and the defence looking better. We were all curious about how the new boys would fit in and when things weren't clicking, common sense said it's the opening two games and the team need time to gel.

We played well against Liverpool, but Brendan Rogere likes to play possession football as well which makes it easier on us. He's having to adapt to coaching a new team, which plays to our advantage and he wasn't going to sit back and try to counter attack or park the bus like most teams do either. Southampton are a newly promoted side and we tore them to shreds and after those two games, there was hope that we may actually be in with a good chance of winning something this year. But as Ice said, we soon reverted back to default mode and it's clear to see that this team struggles against certain tactics and the balance in the squad isn't right.

Out of our 4 wins in the league, two have looked convincing. That is pretty significant in my book. We haven't been shocking all season but we haven't looked good and had sustained run of good form as you suggest. We're yet to step into gear and we have probably had more toothless performances than good.

For example, the problem with Pod out wide has always been there. He's always had quiet games and never been a menace to wingbacks compared to how we see Theo, Arshavin or even Gervinho on a good day. In games where he has scored, he's been quiet on attack but worked hard on the flanks. Now he isn't working as hard on defence and I suspect that is a tactical decision by Wenger. Check out his recent comments on Theo, when he said the role of the winger is changing and they need to focus more on attack instead of defence. Podolski hasn't really found his stride in the team yet and it was noticable from early on. But, I thought it was more of case of him needing to adapt but now it seems like he is hit not suited out wide.

Our striker situation hasn't changed either. Giroud is still struggling and Wenger has no idea who his main striker is for the year. We're finding it hard to get him involved in games and it is probably why he's played Gervinho up front but he can be just as bad or worse because he is wasteful.

Our attack hasn't hit that free flowing football gear yet. We're not even in tippy tappy mode. At times it looks disjointed. The only way I can see things changing is if we start to get certain players back. Losing Diaby was a massive but predictable blow. If he were to get fit or if Wenger swallowed his pride and played Theo and Arshavin, I'd have more hope for our season. We shall see what he does tonight for the Schalke game.
I wouldn't argue with any of that but I certainly felt better a few games in. The performances seemed good, Carzola impressed immediately, Podolski was scoring freely, everything was looking pretty good. I didn't think we were champions elect but I thought we'd push the top 3 a bit harder.

Recently we've looked very mediocre. I hope we'll snap of it because on paper we've got a pretty decent side.

[Marc Overmars]

Our on paper team is almost as good as Spurs.

[LDG]

:crying:

[Syn]

On Paper football is way better than real football.

Awesome Spanish midget midfield. German efficiency well supported by the future of England. Superhero mavericks like Vermaelen, Szcznesny and Sagna at the back.

Amazing team.

[GP]

http://i2.imageban.ru/out/2012/11/06/e20b285e7894f4e7d3b2263196eb7fc1.jpg

[Xhaka Can’t]

I go to games. Early season we were looking good, plenty of people on here were saying so. It wasn't just me.

Yeah, but you always look good.