Change we need.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we replace the manager and continue with the model of making a profit on the back of transfers we are unlikely to obtain one of the calibre of Wenger. The reason being, that Managers of that calibre aren't likely to be willing to do that!


That isn't to say that there isn't anyone out there, because I reckon Moyes could do it - he kind of fulfils a similar role albeit on a smaller scale at Everton. But the strategy we employ is the constant selling off of our best players - this is why we've had teamsheets that are regularly unrecognisable from the teams that preceded them three years previous. This repeats itself all the time - which is why we see the on pitch problems repeat themselves time after time. We see the same thing EVERY season because we are always watching a team of players at the same stage of development in their careers each season. We never mature as a team, because players are either sold on at a profit if they develop or shipped out on loan if they don't.


We'd get the change we wanted to see - but only in the short term because the problem is (IMO) the over-riding strategy employed since the ownership change will lead to the same frustrations occurring.


The Board - and Wenger seem to point to what is going on as a prudent, sensible approach, but it is not - they will always be able to trade off the the goodwill of the vast majority of existing supporters, but long term, where are the new supporters going to come from? Continued in perpetuity, this is a strategy doomed to failure because failure on the pitch is eventually going to lead to failure on the balance sheet - but I bet my ass the Club will be sold on for a tidy profit before that occurs.


I'm sorry for the ramble, but the crux of my point is this: we may see an improvement with a change of Manager but we will not see a change that addresses the fundamental problems until the current ownership realises it is at the point of profit maximisation and sells off accordingly.

[GP]

New mods.

[Niall_Quinn]

but I bet my ass the Club will be sold on for a tidy profit before that occurs

That's the plan, the whole plan and nothing but the plan.

[Niall_Quinn]

With Usmanov's cash to raise the ship, IF, the yank hasn't punched too many holes in it by then.

[LDG]

The only real way to solve it, is to find a billion quid, and try and buy Kronke out.

Second to that, is to try and make it the most uncomfortable we possibly can for him. If everyone just stopped going, stopped buying the tat we see in the club shop....then the share price would drop like a stone....and that would be lovely to see. In fact, I think this is how the best protest can be sold to all fans.

Hate a billionaire owning the club, and want him out quick? Hit him right in the nuts and drive his share price down.

We can but dream.

[Kano]

If we replace the manager and continue with the model of making a profit on the back of transfers we are unlikely to obtain one of the calibre of Wenger. The reason being, that Managers of that calibre aren't likely to be willing to do that!


That isn't to say that there isn't anyone out there, because I reckon Moyes could do it - he kind of fulfils a similar role albeit on a smaller scale at Everton. But the strategy we employ is the constant selling off of our best players - this is why we've had teamsheets that are regularly unrecognisable from the teams that preceded them three years previous. This repeats itself all the time - which is why we see the on pitch problems repeat themselves time after time. We see the same thing EVERY season because we are always watching a team of players at the same stage of development in their careers each season. We never mature as a team, because players are either sold on at a profit if they develop or shipped out on loan if they don't.


We'd get the change we wanted to see - but only in the short term because the problem is (IMO) the over-riding strategy employed since the ownership change will lead to the same frustrations occurring.


The Board - and Wenger seem to point to what is going on as a prudent, sensible approach, but it is not - they will always be able to trade off the the goodwill of the vast majority of existing supporters, but long term, where are the new supporters going to come from? Continued in perpetuity, this is a strategy doomed to failure because failure on the pitch is eventually going to lead to failure on the balance sheet - but I bet my ass the Club will be sold on for a tidy profit before that occurs.


I'm sorry for the ramble, but the crux of my point is this: we may see an improvement with a change of Manager but we will not see a change that addresses the fundamental problems until the current ownership realises it is at the point of profit maximisation and sells off accordingly.

Jurgen Klopp or Marcelo Bielsa will do.

[Cripps_orig]

Getting in a new manager might or might not solve our problems on the pitch. Who knows? No one does. Its a risk but we have come to the point where that risk has to be taken cos one thing we do know is that if Wenger is in charge, we are going one way only and thats towards mid table

I agree the board are greedy ass fuckwits but ultimately Wenger is in charge of the footballing side. The defence, the formation, shite ass strikers, tactics, Arteta etc. Thats all down to Wenger and a new manager might right these horrific wrongs. It will take time. We will need a lot of patience. We can see it with Liverpool how Rodgers is trying to rebuild a side destroyed by Rafa, Woy and Kenny and it will take years for that to happen. Fortunately we are not at that level yet but we will be unless Wenger leaves asap.

January will be the biggest month of his career. Failure to sign quality players in the positions we need them should see him sacked, write the season off, bring a new manager in, give him til the end of the season to have a look at the current players, see which one he wants and which ones he doesnt, try out new stuff and then react accordingly in the summer

[LDG]

Must almost be time for the Wenger poll again. :popcorn:

[Marc Overmars]

2014 is the magical year we may see some change. FFP will be set in stone, new commercial deals can be sought and most importantly, Wenget's contract is up.

[Kano]

2014 is the magical year we may see some change. FFP will be set in stone, new commercial deals can be sought and most importantly, Wenget's contract is up.
share price will be at its optimum so it's sell, sell, sell!

[Niall_Quinn]

2014 is the magical year we may see some change. FFP will be set in stone, new commercial deals can be sought and most importantly, Wenget's contract is up.

Yep. Again the board has pretty much told us to lump it until that date. Then 2-3 more years until Kroenke cashes out so during 2014-17 if Wenger decides to go we will likely have Howard Brown as manager.

[Niall_Quinn]

share price will be at its optimum so it's sell, sell, sell!

No, I think we might even see a big signing at this point as a loss leader for three years of profit taking under a much more lucrative and robust financial model. 2017 is the likely date for Kroenke cash out.

[Alpha]

Let's not be so naive . We don't need to change the manager . We got one of the best and we may struggle to replace him once we let him go . We will know how good he is when he will turn his back on us .
In fact , what we need is a powerful centre back to complete Metersacker vision and intelligence . A strong and imposing defensive midfield to protect and drive the like of Carzola , Wishere and Arteta . A good winger who can cross and provide ammunition to Giroud to head the ball home . Another good striker to compete with Giroud . The rumor of Dzeko from City , if true , can be ideal .

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's not be so naive . We don't need to change the manager . We got one of the best and we may struggle to replace him once we let him go . We will know how good he is when he will turn his back on us .
In fact , what we need is a powerful centre back to complete Metersacker vision and intelligence . A strong and imposing defensive midfield to protect and drive the like of Carzola , Wishere and Arteta . A good winger who can cross and provide ammunition to Giroud to head the ball home . Another good striker to compete with Giroud . The rumor of Dzeko from City , if true , can be ideal .

Titus Bramble, Lee Cattermole and Stewart Downing.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't think we are building a side. I don't think we can under the current model. If we were building a side we would not be either selling our best players or shipping out the failures on loan to the extent we have almost completely different sides every three years. The same mistakes are perennially repeated because we always have a side that is building with the fate of never actually being built.

[Kano]

Let's not be so naive . We don't need to change the manager . We got one of the best and we may struggle to replace him once we let him go . We will know how good he is when he will turn his back on us .
In fact , what we need is a powerful centre back to complete Metersacker vision and intelligence . A strong and imposing defensive midfield to protect and drive the like of Carzola , Wishere and Arteta . A good winger who can cross and provide ammunition to Giroud to head the ball home . Another good striker to compete with Giroud . The rumor of Dzeko from City , if true , can be ideal .
it's always horrible to be the last one left inside the bubble whilst everyone else gets a head start. i don't wanna be rude because you only want the best for the club as do the rest of us but....that shit ain't gonna happen. it's a pipedream. wenger is no longer the best. maybe the best respected but that is something completely different.

it's time for change. i hope when you're ready for it the ship hasn't already sailed.

[Cripps_orig]

it's always horrible to be the last one left inside the bubble whilst everyone else gets a head start. i don't wanna be rude because you only want the best for the club as do the rest of us but....that shit ain't gonna happen. it's a pipedream. wenger is no longer the best. maybe the best respected but that is something completely different.

it's time for change. i hope when you're ready for it the ship hasn't already sailed.Harsh

Hes not alone in being optimistic. I too have optimism. Why, i even predicted a draw v Spuds to prove it

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think we are building a side. I don't think we can under the current model. If we were building a side we would not be either selling our best players or shipping out the failures on loan to the extent we have almost completely different sides every three years. The same mistakes are perennially repeated because we always have a side that is building with the fate of never actually being built.

No, we're feeding off what was already here. That was probably the main attraction fro Kroenke along with the slack in the merchandising and sponsorship deals. The Cavani rumour makes me laugh. Why would you spend £30mill and pay big wages to get a player who is already under a long term contract when we could have just paid the best in the business RvC? There are no big name strikers coming here in the next couple of years at least. Second tier strikers who can be shop-windowed into transfer pay days - maybe. That's likely what Giroud is and what Vhamakh and Park were beforehand. Financial gambles that didn't expose the club too badly and, should they have worked out, profit generators. In a sad way, the better Giroud does the less of an Arsenal player he becomes. That's one of the reasons it;s so hard to get behind this team now - many of them are passing through.

[Kano]

that's why we keep going in for 'young english talent' which holds by far the best sell on rate.

[Niall_Quinn]

that's why we keep going in for 'young english talent' which holds by far the best sell on rate.

I suppose we could take cynicism to the nth degree and find a motive for all the weirdness at the club. The worry is, they keep proving us right. Maybe we aren't cynical enough and they are one step ahead of us. It's hard to imagine any of this is being done in the interests of the club though.

[Alpha]

it's always horrible to be the last one left inside the bubble whilst everyone else gets a head start. i don't wanna be rude because you only want the best for the club as do the rest of us but....that shit ain't gonna happen. it's a pipedream. wenger is no longer the best. maybe the best respected but that is something completely different.

it's time for change. i hope when you're ready for it the ship hasn't already sailed.
I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

[Cripps_orig]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

Probably cos he doesnt get the win bonus

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

The thing is, when you sacrifice your pride for something you don't believe in then what does that make you?

[LDG]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

He looks hurt because his ego is having the shit kicked out of it.

Trouble is, his ego is the biggest thing at the club, and as such will take another 5 years dismantle....at least.

If we finish 15th (where he said he's walk). He'd find somewhere else to apportion the blame.

[Kano]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .
i'm not sure i can see his face when he ignores the obvious flaws season after season. why defenders don't jump for a ball from a corner. why players are kept out of position etc etc.

you have a while, the boat is still filling up.

[Niall_Quinn]

He looks hurt because his ego is having the shit kicked out of it.

Trouble is, his ego is the biggest thing at the club, and as such will take another 5 years dismantle....at least.

If we finish 15th (where he said he's walk). He'd find somewhere else to apportion the blame.

He's safe, we're finishing 16th.

[Alpha]

He looks hurt because his ego is having the shit kicked out of it.

Trouble is, his ego is the biggest thing at the club, and as such will take another 5 years dismantle....at least.

If we finish 15th (where he said he's walk). He'd find somewhere else to apportion the blame.

Everyone can have an ego but for a successful team you need a board , manager , players and fans to work and stick together . For Arsenal point of view , I don't think we all have the same vision .

[LDG]

Everyone can have an ego but for a successful team you need a board , manager , players and fans to work and stick together . For Arsenal point of view , I don't think we all have the same vision .

No. I don't think we do!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

Of the Club no - There all as bad as each other, none is blameless above the rest.

Of the team Yes he is, its his stubborn, deluded ways why we end up in situations where we are in. He gets his tactics wrong, he puts players on who should not be playing. He fucks himself over by not buying the quality cover needed. You can't blame the board for how toothless we have looked at times. Even with team, we should be beating Norwich and fulham and Sunderland at home.

Change is needed, the only way Wenger will change is if he gets an owner who basically won't take no BS or an owner who won't set his targets to 4th place. Maybe missing out on top 4 might prompt him to react better in the market next summer cause he'd want to get back into it.

End of the day the board ain't fecking off anytime soon, so Wenger has to go, not that anything will change much, well maybe on the pitch anyways.
What you can blame them for is not being ambtious money manking ****s. Who'd happily see our best players sold.

[Marc Overmars]

Let's not be so naive . We don't need to change the manager . We got one of the best and we may struggle to replace him once we let him go . We will know how good he is when he will turn his back on us .
In fact , what we need is a powerful centre back to complete Metersacker vision and intelligence . A strong and imposing defensive midfield to protect and drive the like of Carzola , Wishere and Arteta . A good winger who can cross and provide ammunition to Giroud to head the ball home . Another good striker to compete with Giroud . The rumor of Dzeko from City , if true , can be ideal .

How many times do we say things along this ilk though.

"Wenger is still the man for the job but he needs to do this that and the other to improve the team"

The fact we talk about it every year suggests nothing is actually being done. I can appreciate we don't have the same financial muscle as others but what I can't abide by is seeing our best players sold off every year. You have to wonder why a manager of Wengers supposed qualities and standing in the game gets stabbed in the back every year by guys who don't fancy playing for him anymore.

My feeling is that he's done. If the fans are frustrated by this never ending and predictable cycle of stagnation, then you have to assume the players also feel the same. The only difference is they can move on, we can't.

[LDG]

Everyone can have an ego but for a successful team you need a board , manager , players and fans to work and stick together . For Arsenal point of view , I don't think we all have the same vision .

Ah fuck this. I will elaborate.

What exactly do you believe that vision is?

And do you think Wenger's vision and the Boards vision are the same?

And then, do you think the vision of the fans is the same as that of the board and manager?

And why, the absolute fuck, should I buy in to that vision if I don't believe it?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Ah fuck this. I will elaborate.

What exactly do you believe that vision is?

And do you think Wenger's vision and the Boards vision are the same?

And then, do you think the vision of the fans is the same as that of the board and manager?

And why, the absolute fuck, should I buy in to that vision if I don't believe it?

Pretty much.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

much of the problems lately have moved from being board level and more towards the management of the team.

tactics are woeful, in fact we never have any
players played out of position
played being unmotivated
strange substitutions
wrong formation
a manager in denial

how can getting in a new manager not help? someone with half a brain would instantly see the on field problems and rectify them, which would correlate to an improvement in the side.

who would have thought it eh? playing players in their natural position and applying some tactics. takes a genius eh.

football is fucking simple. its the million talkshows, million supposed 'experts' branding their substandard views, and the rise of social media that has complicated it.

on top of that we have a manager who thinks he's mr brains when he's mr wanker.

do the honourable thing and fuck off wenger. you've turned this club into an embarrassment.

[Cripps_orig]

much of the problems lately have moved from being board level and more towards the management of the team.

tactics are woeful, in fact we never have any
players played out of position
played being unmotivated
strange substitutions
wrong formation
a manager in denial

how can getting in a new manager not help? someone with half a brain would instantly see the on field problems and rectify them, which would correlate to an improvement in the side.

who would have thought it eh? playing players in their natural position and applying some tactics. takes a genius eh.

football is fucking simple. its the million talkshows, million supposed 'experts' branding their substandard views, and the rise of social media that has complicated it.

on top of that we have a manager who thinks he's mr brains when he's mr wanker.

do the honourable thing and fuck off wenger. you've turned this club into an embarrassment.

This

Truth be told, i care very little in the financial aspects of the game. I care about what goes on on the pitch and that is down to Wenger and him alone.

Getting rid of him would be the first step on a long road of Gooners getting their Arsenal back

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This

Truth be told, i care very little in the financial aspects of the game. I care about what goes on on the pitch and that is down to Wenger and him alone.

Getting rid of him would be the first step on a long road of Gooners getting their Arsenal back

Well seen as the Board are not leaving anytime soon, Wenger has to go as one of them do. Not sure the man we will get in, but right now it can't be worse and i gets it depends where we are come the summer.

If were not in the top 4 then bringing in a Klopp or Martinez won't hurt us.

I don't even think AW will leave the club fully i think he will go upstairs.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well seen as the Board are not leaving anytime soon, Wenger has to go as one of them do. Not sure the man we will get in, but right now it can't be worse and i gets it depends where we are come the summer.

If were not in the top 4 then bringing in a Klopp or Martinez won't hurt us.

I don't even think AW will leave the club fully i think he will go upstairs.

Would be an interesting interview. The job description might put them off a bit. Hold the leaky tub together while we sell the hull from under you. And here's £7mill to keep your mouth shut.

[Cripps_orig]

Would be an interesting interview. The job description might put them off a bit. Hold the leaky tub together while we sell the hull from under you. And here's £7mill to keep your mouth shut.

Is that what you think the board is doing to Wenger?

Wenger is just as much to blame as the board if not more

[GP]

New mods.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Would be an interesting interview. The job description might put them off a bit. Hold the leaky tub together while we sell the hull from under you. And here's £7mill to keep your mouth shut.

Probs give it to Bould, won't have to spend much money and he'll probs do what they say.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Is that what you think the board is doing to Wenger?

Wenger is just as much to blame as the board if not more

Which is why he is saying the next manager will be the same.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

and this idea that the board restricts the manager is a bit OTT.

we make out that our club isn't a dream club for a manager to work at but it is

we have:

amazing academy
low debt
passionate fans
complete autonomy when it comes to tactics and players. no owner butting in.
time. we stuck with wenger through nearly a decade of shit. a new manager would get backing of fans and time to work his magic.
a somewhat promising young squad to work with
brand new stadium
a top pay package

on top of that the only way is up. we cant get much worse than what we are now.

so the base is good. but the manager we have is flawed.

any manager coming in has a good base to work with. we just need him to come.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:gp:

We have the best mods on the web.

Maybe if one comes along that is of super super quality, but otherwise, we don't want to kill Jimmy Valmer.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

and this idea that the board restricts the manager is a bit OTT.

we make out that our club isn't a dream club for a manager to work at but it is

we have:

amazing academy
low debt
passionate fans
complete autonomy when it comes to tactics and players. no owner butting in.
time. we stuck with wenger through nearly a decade of shit. a new manager would get backing of fans and time to work his magic.
a somewhat promising young squad to work with
brand new stadium
a top pay package

on top of that the only way is up. we cant get much worse than what we are now.

so the base is good. but the manager we have is flawed.

any manager coming in has a good base to work with. we just need him to come.

Don't recall anyone saying that. All people are saying is with this board a new manager will be a puppet just like the one we have now. Once you sell to someone with ambition, rather then someone who only cares about money then its a different issue.

I just can't see us getting anyone ambitious while Stan is around. I agree a new manager will change alot of things but will still be a puppet.

[Cripps_orig]

Depends on who the manager is.

If its someone who has an ounce of self respect then he wont stand for it

If its Wenger lite then we are fucked

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Depends on who the manager is.

If its someone who has an ounce of self respect then he wont stand for it

If its Wenger lite then we are fucked

Yep Yep Yep Yep

[Ollie the Optimist]

are we as fans impatient for success from Arsenal or from wenger?

what i mean is, would a new manager be given a chance. if in two years time after a new manager, we still havnt won anything, and that makes it ten years trophyless will you accept it if we have a new manager, or are we wanting success straight away with a new manager and not give him a chance to settle in?

obviously we all want success, but i can see the crowd turning quickly if after 18 months we still arent competing. i dont think a new manager will be given that much time by the fans

[selassie]

I don't think anyone with sense would say Wenger is the Achilles heel of our team . The Board are . Wenger is just an employee . He has sacrificed many things for this team , even his pride . You can read through his face how his hurt when the team loses a game . We need to see the bigger picture and not let our emotions overrule our senses .

Alpha, Wenger is the achilles heel of the team, he's the one that trains them, he's the one that picks the team, he's the one that relies on crocked players each year to make up the basis of our first team...let alone squad, he's the one that sanctions the purchases and sales.

I was reading an article earlier on today about Moyes at Everton, so fair enough they don't finish 4th every year but Moyes has been handicapped by spending for a good few years now yet always seem to build competitive and fairly technical teams on pretty much a shoestring budget. Funnily enough, he was given some funds to spend this year and bingo, they are now top 4 and look good value for it.

Wenger's methods are flawed, his ideology is flawed and ego too big.

He's done and IMHO he is the PROBLEM.

Look...I accept we can't financially compete with the Big 3 but can't accept seeing reoccurring issues with certain aspects of the team, he's had enough time to sort them out and has failed.

Why should he be given more time to indulge in his failed "vanity project", what are you seeing that makes you think he is the right man to move us forward?

[Xhaka Can’t]

are we as fans impatient for success from Arsenal or from wenger?

what i mean is, would a new manager be given a chance. if in two years time after a new manager, we still havnt won anything, and that makes it ten years trophyless will you accept it if we have a new manager, or are we wanting success straight away with a new manager and not give him a chance to settle in?

obviously we all want success, but i can see the crowd turning quickly if after 18 months we still arent competing. i dont think a new manager will be given that much time by the fans

I don't want success. It would just paper over all the cracks.

[GP]

We have the best mods on the web.

Maybe if one comes along that is of super super quality, but otherwise, we don't want to kill Jimmy Valmer.

Jimmy Valmer is Diaby.

Great promise, just never available.

[Cripps_orig]

are we as fans impatient for success from Arsenal or from wenger?

what i mean is, would a new manager be given a chance. if in two years time after a new manager, we still havnt won anything, and that makes it ten years trophyless will you accept it if we have a new manager, or are we wanting success straight away with a new manager and not give him a chance to settle in?

obviously we all want success, but i can see the crowd turning quickly if after 18 months we still arent competing. i dont think a new manager will be given that much time by the fans

I want success from Wenger now.

From a new manager, he can have time

[Olivier's xmas twist]

are we as fans impatient for success from Arsenal or from wenger?

what i mean is, would a new manager be given a chance. if in two years time after a new manager, we still havnt won anything, and that makes it ten years trophyless will you accept it if we have a new manager, or are we wanting success straight away with a new manager and not give him a chance to settle in?

obviously we all want success, but i can see the crowd turning quickly if after 18 months we still arent competing. i dont think a new manager will be given that much time by the fans

It depends if a new manager is still doing the same methods as Aw and the club is still run the same, then people will moan, If he does something different and its not effective in 2 years people will moan as you know they will but i think he'd be given time.

Though if you look at liverpool etc, they don't seem to give their new managers a chance if they don't do well with in a certain time they want them out.

Wenger for me can win the CC if he wants too. And for me him winning that would be the best way for him to go and a new man come in, will it fix things no but hey its a start.


i dont think a new manager will be given that much time by the fans

The board won't give him much time either.


are we as fans impatient for success from Arsenal or from wenger?


Of course we are, i can't wait for that day we lift our next trophy and to see this board filled with excitement. To see all on here happy and getting along.

End of the day, we have no right to win trophies. However its about giving yourself that chance to win them. The reason i have been pissed of with Aw and the board is because since we have moved to this stadium, we have been good enough to win the fa cup and the League cup. We should have aimed for those till we got where we wanted to be.

[Alpha]

Alpha, Wenger is the achilles heel of the team, he's the one that trains them, he's the one that picks the team, he's the one that relies on crocked players each year to make up the basis of our first team...let alone squad, he's the one that sanctions the purchases and sales.

I was reading an article earlier on today about Moyes at Everton, so fair enough they don't finish 4th every year but Moyes has been handicapped by spending for a good few years now yet always seem to build competitive and fairly technical teams on pretty much a shoestring budget. Funnily enough, he was given some funds to spend this year and bingo, they are now top 4 and look good value for it.



Wenger's methods are flawed, his ideology is flawed and ego too big.



He's done and IMHO he is the PROBLEM.

Look...I accept we can't financially compete with the Big 3 but can't accept seeing reoccurring issues with certain aspects of the team, he's had enough time to sort them out and has failed.

Why should he be given more time to indulge in his failed "vanity project", what are you seeing that makes you think he is the right man to move us forward?

Selassie ,Wenger is the one we can see and blame . He is a kind of scapegoat and he has no choice but to accept it as it is part of his " contract " . But , believe me , behind him they lots of guy who are more to blame but sadly are not accountable to the fans or the public if you want .
David Moyes is a great manager but he can't handle Arsenal. He is good for a mid-table team . I remember back in the days when we used to run the show in the Premiership . Everton reached the top four once to the expense of Liverpool . They went to the champions League and you know exactly what happened .

[Cripps_orig]

Piers Morgan spot on about this on TalkSport

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Piers Morgan spot on about this on TalkSport

What did he say.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Piers Morgan spot on about this on TalkSport

he called for harry redknapp to replace wenger. this invalidates his opinion forever on Arsenal. he cares about his ego and getting attention.


funny i know someone similar :coffee:

[GP]

he called for harry redknapp to replace wenger.

:haha:

You're kidding?

[Ollie the Optimist]

:haha:

You're kidding?

have no idea if he called for it today in that interview, but on his twitter account he did last week

[Maestro]

The thing is, when you sacrifice your pride for something you don't believe in then what does that make you?

A whore ....simples

[Xhaka Can’t]

:haha:

You're kidding?

Sheringham could be his No. 2!

[Maestro]

Denver Nuggetts - NBA

"The team joined the NBA in 1976 after the ABA-NBA merger and have some periods of success, making the playoffs for nine consecutive seasons in the 1980s and doing the same for the previous nine seasons. However, it has not made an appearance in a championship round since its last year in the ABA."

Denver Avalanche - NHL

"The Avalanche have won eight division titles and they qualified for the playoffs in each of their first ten seasons in Denver; the streak ended in 2007."

St Louis Rams - NFL

"1951 – Ed Thorp Memorial Trophy (NFL championship)
1979 – George Halas Trophy (NFC champion)
1999 – George Halas Trophy (NFC champion)
1999 – Vince Lombardi Trophy (Super Bowl XXXIV)
2001 – George Halas Trophy (NFC champion)"

Colarado Rapids - MSL

"Colorado won the MLS Cup for the first time in 2010. The Rapids reached the final once before, in 1997, which it lost to D.C. United; they also reached the final of the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup in 1999."

Colarado Mammoth - NLL

"In 2004 they became the league's attendance leader, closely beating the Toronto Rock. In 2006, they again came away with the league attendance record, again beating out the Toronto Rock. 2006 was the first year in the 20-year history of the NLL that the league had an attendance of more than one million fans in one season. The Colorado Mammoth had the honor of hosting fan number one million, an honor that commissioner Jim Jennings believed to be rightfully theirs, given the impact they had on the league's attendance that year.[2] In 2008, the Mammoth average attendance per game was highest among Pepsi Center's residents, including the Colorado Avalanche (NHL), and the Denver Nuggets (NBA)."

Colarado Arsenal -BPL

......insert profile here

This Kroenke guy has interesting targets ...next up record of investment into the Kroenke Sports Enterprises, of which we are now part of.

[Cripps_orig]

What did he say.Pretty much what's been said on here by all but the clueless. How Wenger isn't innocent in this and he has to go along with Gazidis whose only interest is to sell our best players

[Xhaka Can’t]

Denver Nuggetts - NBA

Denver Avalanche - NHL

"The Avalanche have won eight division titles and they qualified for the playoffs in each of their first ten seasons in Denver; the streak ended in 2007."



They are the Colorado Avalanche based in Denver and have never ever been referred to as the 'Denver Avalanche'. He only bought into them in 2000, when they were one of the elite teams in the NHL. They won the Stanley Cup the following season, but the team gradually declined under his ownership and now have one of the lowest payrolls in the NHL and are light years away from qualifying for the play-offs. And this in a league where 16 of the 30 clubs make the post season.

Under his ownership the Avs have regressed from being in the elite to becoming also-rans with some of the lowest levels of investment in the team despite high attendances.

Luckily, there are no parallels with what we are seeing here at Arsenal.

[Maestro]

They are the Colorado Avalanche based in Denver and have never ever been referred to as the 'Denver Avalanche'. He only bought into them in 2000, when they were one of the elite teams in the NHL. They won the Stanley Cup the following season, but the team gradually declined under his ownership and now have one of the lowest payrolls in the NHL and are light years away from qualifying for the play-offs. And this in a league where 16 of the 30 clubs make the post season.

Under his ownership the Avs have regressed from being in the elite to becoming also-rans with some of the lowest levels of investment in the team despite high attendances.

Luckily, there are no parallels with what we are seeing here at Arsenal.

...sorry my typo

I know hey, they tried to build a team on the cheap with young talent at the Nuggets but that failed

[Xhaka Can’t]

...sorry my typo

I know hey, they tried to build a team on the cheap with young talent at the Nuggets but that failed

Apologies for being anal.

[LDG]

Apologies for being anal.

Hey. This board may be racist. But we don't question sexual preference.

No need to apologise for being a raging bender.

[GP]

No woofters allowed.

[gooners]

that's why we keep going in for 'young english talent' which holds by far the best sell on rate.

I can vividly imagine wenger selling this concept to the board waaaay back! to him there was no point buying ready made -- because the market was distorted. Coming 4th and winning the league doesn't make that much of a difference financially. So why spend 20mil or 30mil on a player with huge wages without a guarentee you will win anything. The risk-reward ratio is ridiculous if a football club is looked at from a purely financial angle.

To the board, this was a brilliant idea -- so low risk, it virtually ensured that the new stadium was a fanatstic asset that will solely maintain if not enhance their share values; this ensured they were able to cash in handsomely by selling out to an avid sports franchise investor in kroenke.

You see, this was all wenger! in fact without him this doesn't work --- he is irreplaceable in this venture. The board wont even think of getting rid of him; he does not even contemplate leaving -- he is unsackable; he is the one that makes the bank of arsenal tick. Otherwise he would have walked when DD left.

[selassie]

No woofters allowed.

NWA

[Power n Glory]

I can vividly imagine wenger selling this concept to the board waaaay back! to him there was no point buying ready made -- because the market was distorted. Coming 4th and winning the league doesn't make that much of a difference financially. So why spend 20mil or 30mil on a player with huge wages without a guarentee you will win anything. The risk-reward ratio is ridiculous if a football club is looked at from a purely financial angle.

To the board, this was a brilliant idea -- so low risk, it virtually ensured that the new stadium was a fanatstic asset that will solely maintain if not enhance their share values; this ensured they were able to cash in handsomely by selling out to an avid sports franchise investor in kroenke.

You see, this was all wenger! in fact without him this doesn't work --- he is irreplaceable in this venture. The board wont even think of getting rid of him; he does not even contemplate leaving -- he is unsackable; he is the one that makes the bank of arsenal tick. Otherwise he would have walked when DD left.

:gp:

He has always admired the Ajax youth setup and had us all thinking about youth development from early. This has always been his vision for the club.

[Özim]

I can vividly imagine wenger selling this concept to the board waaaay back! to him there was no point buying ready made -- because the market was distorted. Coming 4th and winning the league doesn't make that much of a difference financially. So why spend 20mil or 30mil on a player with huge wages without a guarentee you will win anything. The risk-reward ratio is ridiculous if a football club is looked at from a purely financial angle.

To the board, this was a brilliant idea -- so low risk, it virtually ensured that the new stadium was a fanatstic asset that will solely maintain if not enhance their share values; this ensured they were able to cash in handsomely by selling out to an avid sports franchise investor in kroenke.

You see, this was all wenger! in fact without him this doesn't work --- he is irreplaceable in this venture. The board wont even think of getting rid of him; he does not even contemplate leaving -- he is unsackable; he is the one that makes the bank of arsenal tick. Otherwise he would have walked when DD left.
I can totally imagine this, he was after all a massive advocate of the stadium move, he didn't put his money in but was said to be the driving force (before this all came to fruition)

[Niall_Quinn]

I can totally imagine this, he was after all a massive advocate of the stadium move, he didn't put his money in but was said to be the driving force (before this all came to fruition)

Yet again, not so simple. Wenger may well have been the driving force but this does not automatically imply his agenda is what he sees around him today. A lot of other events have unfolded at Arsenal during those years. This comes back to who runs the club. Some say Wenger, and others correctly say the shareholders. Circumstances and opportunities can alter motives and agendas. What's said on public can mean the reverse in private, you just have to look at a government manifesto to confirm this fact.

[Power n Glory]

Yet again, not so simple. Wenger may well have been the driving force but this does not automatically imply his agenda is what he sees around him today. A lot of other events have unfolded at Arsenal during those years. This comes back to who runs the club. Some say Wenger, and others correctly say the shareholders. Circumstances and opportunities can alter motives and agendas. What's said on public can mean the reverse in private, you just have to look at a government manifesto to confirm this fact.


Wenger is full of shit. Go back to last year when fans were pissed about the ticket price hike and tried to control the outrage by saying the price hike would help us compete with the bigger clubs.

Who knows what is happening behind closed doors but when he makes that sort of statement and purposely misleads fans, getting people to believe that the price hike will benefit us on the field when it's most likely helped to pay off bonuses and the increase in Gazidis's wages, you know he can't be trusted for shit.

He's no victim and it's worth remembering that he's okay to sit back and watch the Board rummage through the fans pockets to fuel their wage increases and bonuses. He didn't have to jump to defend the ticket price hike but he chose to be the spokesperson to deflect criticism away from the board and get fans thinking it would benefit us on the pitch. He's a con man.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is full of shit. Go back to last year when fans were pissed about the ticket price hike and tried to control the outrage by saying the price hike would help us compete with the bigger clubs.

Who knows what is happening behind closed doors but when he makes that sort of statement and purposely misleads fans, getting people to believe that the price hike will benefit us on the field when it's most likely helped to pay off bonuses and the increase in Gazidis's wages, you know he can't be trusted for shit.

He's no victim and it's worth remembering that he's okay to sit back and watch the Board rummage through the fans pockets to fuel their wage increases and bonuses. He didn't have to jump to defend the ticket price hike but he chose to be the spokesperson to deflect criticism away from the board and get fans thinking it would benefit us on the pitch. He's a con man.

The thing is, I didn't say he was a victim. I said his actions can't be considered in isolation, they are connected to a bigger picture and that's what we need to look at when we judge his actions. Why is it such a surprise when the manager of a corporation peddles the company line? And to play devil's advocate, the ticket hike maybe did benefit us on the field. Without it they probably still would have had their pay rises and just sold off another player or two to make the difference up. Of course he's a con man. He's a manager at a major corporation. The next guy in will be a con man too. Part of the job description.

[Power n Glory]

The thing is, I didn't say he was a victim. I said his actions can't be considered in isolation, they are connected to a bigger picture and that's what we need to look at when we judge his actions. Why is it such a surprise when the manager of a corporation peddles the company line? And to play devil's advocate, the ticket hike maybe did benefit us on the field. Without it they probably still would have had their pay rises and just sold off another player or two to make the difference up. Of course he's a con man. He's a manager at a major corporation. The next guy in will be a con man too. Part of the job description.

Oh jeez! That's sad! Look at yourself!

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh jeez! That's sad! Look at yourself!

Which part? Which champion do you have in mind to ride in here and suddenly transform the place? Is that how it works?

[Power n Glory]

Which part? Which champion do you have in mind to ride in here and suddenly transform the place? Is that how it works?

It amazes me that you have such scorn for players like RVP, Song and Walcott but so understanding when it comes to the man that is actually helping to rob us. No talk of greed or moral bankruptcy, just all explained away by saying this is part of his job. Quite amazing!

[Niall_Quinn]

It amazes me that you have such scorn for players like RVP, Song and Walcott but so understanding when it comes to the man that is actually helping to rob us. No talk of greed or moral bankruptcy, just all explained away by saying this is part of his job. Quite amazing!

Why do you assume the only alternative to total and outright condemnation is fellatio? I'm not explaining anything away. I'm saying we may not be in possession of all the facts and therefore the often simple conclusions we reach on this forum should come with a margin of error at least. Then people start with, Wenger said this, Wenger said that, so that proves something. We're allowed to hear the public and unified statements from an otherwise secretive company. I've already said, as far as I can speculate Wenger has sided with the board against the fans and I don't see the two groups as being compatible. So I'm against what he's doing. But I also appreciate what he's done in the past and I don't feel there's a requirement to slaughter him at every opportunity. The RvC, Song, Walcott stuff I also explained earlier. The ****s have left the club, they can fuck themselves.

[Power n Glory]

There you go. The opening sentences and last few sentences should give you your answer. A long drawn out appeal to reason for a man that has been milking us along for a long time now. Plenty of quotes and facts to go with it compared to the speculation we here about players. If you're appeal to reason and to look for facts were true across the board in these sorts of discussions, I'd have no problem letting this one go. But as said before, there are huge contradictions in your stance.

[Niall_Quinn]

There you go. The opening sentences and last few sentences should give you your answer. A long drawn out appeal to reason for a man that has been milking us along for a long time now. Plenty of quotes and facts to go with it compared to the speculation we here about players. If you're appeal to reason and to look for facts were true across the board in these sorts of discussions, I'd have no problem letting this one go. But as said before, there are huge contradictions in your stance.

What are you on about? I'm not appealing to you for anything. You can take my view or leave it. Neither am I asking permission to have that view. You can let whatever you want go, it won't affect me either way. Failure to condemn Wenger on all accounts and in all instances is not a contradiction, unless you are engaged in an unyielding witch hunt.

[Power n Glory]

Like your witch hunt against the board and uncompromising stance against greed in the game? When it comes to Wenger, your approach changes and there are a few contridictions. I'm just calling it out and not asking you to do anything.

[Niall_Quinn]

Like your witch hunt against the board and uncompromising stance against greed in the game? When it comes to Wenger, your approach changes and there are a few contridictions. I'm just calling it out and not asking you to do anything.

You want me to compare what Kroenke has done for Arsenal with what Wenger has done for Arsenal? Greed in the game is from top to bottom and yes I'm against it. As I said elsewhere, we are not connected to any of them any more, they are in a different world. Even so, all you are calling out is my unwillingness to condemn Wenger outright. When he fucks up on the pitch I say so. When he fucks up in the transfer market I say so. But I will not criticise him on every point regardless of the circumstances. There's a danger here of the Wenger out at all costs lobby over-cooking things and ending up with the opposite outcome.

[fakeyank]

Why do you assume the only alternative to total and outright condemnation is fellatio?

You just lost me right there.. didnt read the rest.

:rolleyes:

[Power n Glory]

You want me to compare what Kroenke has done for Arsenal with what Wenger has done for Arsenal? Greed in the game is from top to bottom and yes I'm against it. As I said elsewhere, we are not connected to any of them any more, they are in a different world. Even so, all you are calling out is my unwillingness to condemn Wenger outright. When he fucks up on the pitch I say so. When he fucks up in the transfer market I say so. But I will not criticise him on every point regardless of the circumstances. There's a danger here of the Wenger out at all costs lobby over-cooking things and ending up with the opposite outcome.

We have been on a wane for ages now and it was before Kronke joined the Board. But yeah, maybe you are right, I am picking on the fact that you are taking it easy on Wenger because you hold nothing back when it comes to the players and Board members. Check these quotes out from Wenger.

On the ticket price hike.


Wenger accepts placing an extra burden on supporters in difficult financial times is far from ideal, but one of the avenues the club have to explore as they aim to stay competitive in an unbalanced market.
'We try in every single way to increase our income to fight with the other clubs, but the resources will always be down to three different incomes - media, sponsorship and gate receipts,' said Wenger, who is set to compromise the team's usual pre-season build-up by going on a lucrative overseas tour this summer.
'We tried to keep the [ticket] increase as low as possible, and we spoke about that at the board meeting. Unfortunately the expenses always go up.
'We do not master the expenses because the expenses are dictated by our opponents.
'That is why the [UEFA] financial fair play [rules] are so important because we are pushed into a situation that we do not master because if our opponents do not respect the financial fair play, our expenses will always go up and we can only reflect that as low as possible on the ticket prices.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1384371/Arsenal-board-Stan-Kroenke-Arsene-Wenger-defends-ticket-prices.html

There is no reason for him to come out and defend the ticket price hike when Gazidis was under fire from the fans. He didn't have go as far this and make excuses as to why it was necessary. Again, think about the bonuses and pay rises staff paid out this year.

On our resources.


Gazidis claimed there was more money to spend on transfers than Wenger has chosen to use in recent summers, but the manager said: “My job is to deliver a team with the resources we have, and I have never complained about that.

"I want a club to pay players from its own resources, there is no shame in that."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-arsene-wenger-hits-back-1399631

He's openly saying that he is proud and willing to stand by this model. Making out that he's being gagged and all will be revealed when he's gone is nonsense. Even if it was revealed that he wasn't getting full support, he's on record supporting the model that dupes the fans. Countless times he has backed them and he has this 'has the world gone mad' type attitude when questioned about the set up here. He speaks with conviction when questioned about our model. Far from a pawn or guy simply doing what he's told as you try to make out when explaining his actions.

And let's not forget Wenger's that jab from Wenger about 'patients being a sign of intelligent people' after the PHW 'silly people' shit storm.

I get what your saying about the dangers of what would happen if Wenger left, but that same sort of argument is presented when players leaves and you're hearing none of it. That's why I've got a problem with your defence of Wenger. He sanctions the sales of key players and backs dubious board policies openly. Thing won't get any better under his rein. Things could possibly get worse if he left, but there is a possibility that they could get better a under coach that knows how to sort a team out and has vision for this club.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Why do you assume the only alternative to total and outright condemnation is fellatio?



You just lost me right there.. didnt read the rest.

:rolleyes:
It means "blow job" in the US.

Try googling it if you get stuck.

[Kano]

men find it hard to multi task.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Want change, i vote for Obama :ninja:

[Fist of Lehmann]

men find it hard to multi task.

Sure, but he shouldn't need his keyboard finger.