Match Reaction v Aston Villa

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Handled that like a boss.

Giving then the short shrift their stupid questions deserved.

Pretty much. Don't see the big deal with Giroud going off with 2 mins to go after all he is "useless as they say on here" Just another thing to moan about eh.


He actually competed in the league last year, even if in the end he failed....and every year they are competitive even with far inferior teams to the opposition. Yes they went out at the group stages of the CL, but his record is far far better than Wenger's in the CL I'm afraid.

The press respect a manager who delivers success year on year, who wouldn't he's proven himself time and time again.

:haha: if you believe that. The press repect AW as much as they do Fergie, Its just easier to grill him for what he has not won in the last 7 years.

Even when he was winning they still gave Wenger a hard time its not just the last 7 years. But who gives a shit about the press anyways.

[Kano]

from what i've heard the press love wenger because he will always give them a direct answer. he is one of their favourites to quote, that's for sure.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

There is a reason Wenger makes the decisions he does.

They may not be good ones analysing them from home but over the course of a season are good enough to make top four, which is all that's important.

Fans need to be patient until FFP kicks in, if it does. If not we're fucked either way.

:gp:


Don't let the power go to your head now!

Just saying it's hard to keep a discussion confined to one section these days, especially when it's a reaction to an incident that has actually happened during the match. But do what you please.

I think GB is talking about the whole thread no just what was related to the incident. Its the same every match thread when we lose or draw not just this one.

[milla]

You clearly don't know much about either BVB, Football or the outside world; just wish I had known this a while earlier and if had, I wouldn't have even bothered.

For the sake of others reading our exchange, Dortmund is a regional power house at best- one of the biggest clubs in Germany but clearly no match for the national heavyweight that is Bayern. Since the 90's (when there resurgence started) I've always had a strong affiliation to them, they always had a lovely style of play and produced and had wonderful talents like Chapuisat, Moller and one of my favourite brazillians (because he could actually defend) Julio Cesar. I stopped following them by the early 2000s but still hold a soft spot for them and I'm happy they're relevant again.

Yes they currently have the highest average attendance in Europe but guess what- build a 90000 seater in Tyneside and Newcastle would fill it too. Any true Dortmund fan would not begrudge me comparing their team to Newcastle because of similarities in them being regional heavyweighters and their quite loyaly fanatic fans. Also their derbys with Schalke mirrors the Tyne v Wear clashes we have up here. But Dortmund is deservedly a far more prestigious team, but prestige does not equal size.

Anway despite all that, we are the bigger club in almost every important ramification. Nationally we have more Arsenal fans in the UK than they have Dortmund fans in Germany. Internationally it is no contest. In the 1930's we were already boasting of 70000 plus coming to see our matches while they were still struggling to get anyone interested in them. Revenue wise we are considerbaly bigger. In my own personal travels to every continent except South America and the ones full of Ice- I have seen Arsenal jersey's everywhere- I have never seen a Dortmund jersey out of Europe- except once or twice in Africa ages ago. And BTW anyone who has been to Brazil knows that Arsenal jerseys are littered in the big cities.

So again what is your point? Is it the stadium, because it only gets 80000 because it has standing capacity something a lot of gooners would welcome if we were allowed in this country. Oh, or is it the fact they have done better in Europe than us, yeah that makes sense. Forest and Villa must be titans world wide- infact I'm guessing Klopp would refuse Arsenal because he has the burning desire to be the man that wins the 3rd European title for Forest so they can equal Man U and still claim to be the second most successful side in the country- idiot.

Note:You were the one who responded to my fact that Dortmund is a smaller club than Arsenal, so put up or shut up.

LOL It is not a fact it is your evaluation. Using your evaluation, Arsenal is also regional power house as we won far too few compare to ManU. In fact less successful than Dortmund as we have no European titles to bragged about. At the end of the day it is the trophy counts not how much money you make (unless you are Wumger).

You are overrating english league by comparing Newcastle to Dortmund, what has Newcastle done to deserve such comparison?

I don't think we have more fan base in England than Dortmund in Germany. Looking at their away fans.., they definitely have more fans who actually would spend their money on their club.

Finally, they don't have our small club mentality, at least now. Why would Klopp sign for a club who wants to win 4th place?

Get your fact right, Arsenal is no better than Dortmund number wise, trophy wise.. Arsenal is only bigger at milking more money from fans. :coffee:

[Grebbo]

The Ox is a bit shit isn't he?

Waste of £12m

[GP]

Back on topic...

Anyone see the Grand Prix today? Thrilling finale.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Around the world, the proportion of people watching the Budesliga and Dortmund in particular is miniscule compared to those watching the EPL and Arsenal in particular.

The worldwide fanbases of Arsenal and Dortmund are not even worth comparing.

[Master Splinter]

Back on topic...

Anyone see the Grand Prix today? Thrilling finale.

Did Ralph win?

[GP]

Did Ralph win?

They choo choo chose him.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

If Wenger really is in charge and the board is subordinate to his decision making, then Wenger won't be leaving unless he chooses to right? That's simple logic to follow. So end of debate right there, nothing else to be said.

On the other hand, if we rely on reality and suggest the board makes the decisions then only they can get rid of Wenger. Again very simple logic.

We've been through an analysis of the board's agenda many times, so let's not go over it again. But every single declaration from the board indicates they are 100% behind Wenger. So I'm wondering what the Wenger out movement is hoping to achieve by badgering the manager and ignoring the people who can actually influence any of this. But say the board decides to get rid of him. What do you expect to change then? Some say a better tactician will get the team playing better and achieve better results. Perhaps. So what happens when the new guy gets the team to where he wants it and the top players are sold? Or is the idea supposed to be a new manager will change the direction of the board as well? Kroenke will suddenly become a football fan who decides to pump his money in for love? Is that the hope? That's what people are prepared to swap the trashing of our most successful manager for?

I realise some are attempting to bypass all logic by suggesting Wenger wanted to sell his top players and would rather be 4th than 1st. But if we stick with what is sane, what's the plan once Wenger is (somehow, though nobody has explained how) hounded out? Fans can climb in the sewer with the media and throw all sorts of shit at the manager in an attempt to drive him out. Say they succeed. What's next? What do we scream for next?

I don't get you NQ- it's like you see the problem (at least you have for like a year now on every match thread) but you just don't want to admit it.

We all agree that the board's main concern is themselves and growing their wealth- or as they would like us to believe Arsenal's wealth. No one argues or disputes that. The board/club sell our best players in order to balance the books- at least thats the excuse they give us every year- but we know this model has resulted in them not having to spend a penny on Arsenal by making us self-sustaining while conversely increasing their wealth. Anyway the link is the board can really only make gains from Arsenal by growing Arsenal's worth- as they still can't consume our profits directly. So the key thing here is increasing revenue, revenue and revenue- while trying their best to control relative costs that everyone faces.

The simple point is this, we have been selling our best players to cover the fact that our direct footballing revenue (matchday revenue) isn't really getting the bump that we had expected because of us never going the whole hog in Europe or any of the cups. Our merchandise doesn't sell that well because no Chinese guy wants to spend his hard earned money on a perennial loosers when "Chessy" just wont the European cup. Our tv revenue is dependant on how far we go and how much we appeal to the outside world so we have had to deal with Chelsea and now Man City slicing out of our percentage of TV money as we aren't as fashionable as Man U have remained. In short we are selling our best players because Wenger is trying to cover the black hole his footballing failures keep costing this club.

It has been proven over and over again by Man U, Real Madrid and now Barcelona- that making your brand attractive (and winning is the best way to do that) is the fastest way of creating revenue in this entertainment business we are in. Barcelona was far behind us 7 years ago in their worth but now have caught up. Man U has drastically increased the gap and so has Real. Whether those dinosours in the board room like it or not, they have created less wealth for themselves by jettisoning performance based sales for cashing in on assets. Ihe easiset way to make yourself richer, as the Glazers have proved is to make sure your team is still winning, the brand is still premium, and the worth of your asset (the club) will more than compensate for an intial spike in costs. The board and wenger have treated this club like a sort of small time supermarket, and thus our growth and their wealth has been limted by this approach.

The truth is they are being conservative with their tried and tested formulae, since it still works but it's clear they are reaching a point where they are running out of premium assets to sell (players) and what we do have now is being undervalued becuase everyone knows we are a feeder club (Fabregas). Lets not forget that liverpool got 50 million for toress because they made the deal look impossible, while fergie got 80 million for Ronaldo creating the same approach. IF we add Viera +henry+ fabregas+ nasri+ RVP- we just about get our 80 million. And i haven't even added his Tevez sale.

In short, we compensate for our stagnant income by selling our players and making the fans pay an arm and a leg- the more successfull we are as a club on the footbal field, the sooner we are able to return our brand to a premium brand- the more the board will make money. I'm sure practically all their financial advisers would be at least as qualified as me and I'm sure they know this.

Anyway a winning manager will not need to sell unless stupid money is thrown at him- like the Ronaldo case. As everyone points out, no top team in Europe keeps selling their best talent the way Arsenal do, and they keep increasing their worth at a faster rate than we do.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I once saw a Dortmund top in Calgary.

Thats the problem with Canadians, always trying to be different :p

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

LOL It is not a fact it is your evaluation. Using your evaluation, Arsenal is also regional power house as we won far too few compare to ManU. In fact less successful than Dortmund as we have no European titles to bragged about. At the end of the day it is the trophy counts not how much money you make (unless you are Wumger).

You are overrating english league by comparing Newcastle to Dortmund, what has Newcastle done to deserve such comparison?

I don't think we have more fan base in England than Dortmund in Germany. Looking at their away fans.., they definitely have more fans who actually would spend their money on their club.

Finally, they don't have our small club mentality, at least now. Why would Klopp sign for a club who wants to win 4th place?

Get your fact right, Arsenal is no better than Dortmund number wise, trophy wise.. Arsenal is only bigger at milking more money from fans. :coffee:

Everything you pointed out has already been dealt with in all my replies- but ok, you win; Dortmund is bigger than Arsenal but slightly smaller than Forest :good: What you sipping BTW??

[Özim]

So a 4 year old article has to do with?
Nothing has changed in 7 years, so I'd say it's still very relevant today.

[Alpha]

My first ever time to agree with all comments . I was speechless during and after the game . I can't find words to describe such as " sinful" performance . Wenger has to throw the towel and accept he got everything wrong . He aien't got a clue about what he is doing now . His youth project if there was one is total shambles . He don't know how to beat any team . He has completely destroyed his own legacy .
The joke of the game was Metersacker , a central defender looked like a central midfielder . He received more balls than Arteta , Ramsey and Carzola combined . You couldn't tell which position Giroud was playing . He was a midfielder and a winger at the same time , vacating his striking position to Koscieny who should be our new striker when Chamack decides enough is enough for his bench warming and fuck off back to France . Wenger:dance:Squillaci:dance:Djourou:dance: Chamack:dance:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

My first ever time to agree with all comments . I was speechless during and after the game . I can't find words to describe such as " sinful" performance . Wenger has to throw the towel and accept he got everything wrong . He aien't got a clue about what he is doing now . His youth project if there was one is total shambles . He don't know how to beat any team . He has completely destroyed his own legacy .
The joke of the game was Metersacker , a central defender looked like a central midfielder . He received more balls than Arteta , Ramsey and Carzola combined . You couldn't tell which position Giroud was playing . He was a midfielder and a winger at the same time , vacating his striking position to Koscieny who should be our new striker when Chamack decides enough is enough for his bench warming and fuck off back to France . Wenger:dance:Squillaci:dance:Djourou:dance: Chamack:dance:

He's not french and has never played in france :coffee:

[Xhaka Can’t]

He's not french and has never played in france :coffee:

Yeah, he needs to go back to Sibernicaragua.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yeah, he needs to go back to Sibernicaragua.

:gp:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Around the world, the proportion of people watching the Budesliga and Dortmund in particular is miniscule compared to those watching the EPL and Arsenal in particular.

The worldwide fanbases of Arsenal and Dortmund are not even worth comparing.

can we count that as a trophy?

[Niall_Quinn]

You ask what next, but do you really think we'll be able to change the Board with a few frosty chants? It's not going to happen and unless Wenger sorts his act out, things will continue to get ugly and he won't be exempt from the blame either. He backs the board and they back him. There is no quick solution to all this but Wenger would make things a lot easier on himself he were able to motivate the team, select the right players on match day and make sensible subs.

We're not changing the board regardless. Kroenke is here for money and he's not going to piss off just because fans get the hump. The conversation started because a few people seem to think it is legitimate to abuse Wenger and have started to revel in the difficulties he's having. They seem to want him gone at any expense, even if it's a humiliating sacking or a trial and execution by, of all the filthy rotten ****s, the British press. Most of us agreed a while back it's time for Wenger to go for the reasons we also seem to agree on, team selection, tactics, etc.

But others seem to think Wenger is on a mission to destroy Arsenal. They think he runs the whole club from top top bottom. They refuse to account in any way for the pressures he's under. They ignore the role of the board or at best give it, yeah, yeah, the board are bad too. Before plunging into more bullshit about Wenger getting rid of our players, refusing to spend money and the rest. And now we've even had the respect for PHW campaign, as if Wenger had anything to do with the bullshit going on in the boardroom over the last few years that has seen a complete footballing Philistine take control of the club while the rest bail taking the proceeds of the financial plan that has caused the rest of us so much pain. That's what's really fucked us. That's why there is no ambition. The plan is to survive using the fewest possible resources until a few rotten ****s get their cash. Not sure what's stopping certain people seeing the obvious but heaping the entire blame on Wenger is way off.

Certain fans can scream all they want but Kroenke is here to stay, Wenger is here to stay until his latest contract is up at least and the board are 100% behind him. Even if he left nothing would change. So the fans will just have to wait it out and try to refrain from destroying the guy who may have dropped the ball but prior to that gave us the very expectations we are now using to hang him.

A pack mentality can be very destructive and can lead people to do things they may very much regret later when thr victim's body is pulped at their feet. I sense a rolling bandwagon that may well get very nasty. A few posters here want no part of it and that's their choice and a choice that should be respected too.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just allow the conversation to flow. Our results are predictable along with the peformances. This is the match reaction.

Agreed. We have just witnessed a performance that was so unbelievably dire it begs all sorts of questions and reactions. After all, there was no football worth talking about. So if we're limited to that the thread should really be empty bar the kick off time and final result.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't get you NQ- it's like you see the problem (at least you have for like a year now on every match thread) but you just don't want to admit it.

We all agree that the board's main concern is themselves and growing their wealth- or as they would like us to believe Arsenal's wealth. No one argues or disputes that. The board/club sell our best players in order to balance the books- at least thats the excuse they give us every year- but we know this model has resulted in them not having to spend a penny on Arsenal by making us self-sustaining while conversely increasing their wealth. Anyway the link is the board can really only make gains from Arsenal by growing Arsenal's worth- as they still can't consume our profits directly. So the key thing here is increasing revenue, revenue and revenue- while trying their best to control relative costs that everyone faces.

The simple point is this, we have been selling our best players to cover the fact that our direct footballing revenue (matchday revenue) isn't really getting the bump that we had expected because of us never going the whole hog in Europe or any of the cups. Our merchandise doesn't sell that well because no Chinese guy wants to spend his hard earned money on a perennial loosers when "Chessy" just wont the European cup. Our tv revenue is dependant on how far we go and how much we appeal to the outside world so we have had to deal with Chelsea and now Man City slicing out of our percentage of TV money as we aren't as fashionable as Man U have remained. In short we are selling our best players because Wenger is trying to cover the black hole his footballing failures keep costing this club.

It has been proven over and over again by Man U, Real Madrid and now Barcelona- that making your brand attractive (and winning is the best way to do that) is the fastest way of creating revenue in this entertainment business we are in. Barcelona was far behind us 7 years ago in their worth but now have caught up. Man U has drastically increased the gap and so has Real. Whether those dinosours in the board room like it or not, they have created less wealth for themselves by jettisoning performance based sales for cashing in on assets. Ihe easiset way to make yourself richer, as the Glazers have proved is to make sure your team is still winning, the brand is still premium, and the worth of your asset (the club) will more than compensate for an intial spike in costs. The board and wenger have treated this club like a sort of small time supermarket, and thus our growth and their wealth has been limted by this approach.

The truth is they are being conservative with their tried and tested formulae, since it still works but it's clear they are reaching a point where they are running out of premium assets to sell (players) and what we do have now is being undervalued becuase everyone knows we are a feeder club (Fabregas). Lets not forget that liverpool got 50 million for toress because they made the deal look impossible, while fergie got 80 million for Ronaldo creating the same approach. IF we add Viera +henry+ fabregas+ nasri+ RVP- we just about get our 80 million. And i haven't even added his Tevez sale.

In short, we compensate for our stagnant income by selling our players and making the fans pay an arm and a leg- the more successfull we are as a club on the footbal field, the sooner we are able to return our brand to a premium brand- the more the board will make money. I'm sure practically all their financial advisers would be at least as qualified as me and I'm sure they know this.

Anyway a winning manager will not need to sell unless stupid money is thrown at him- like the Ronaldo case. As everyone points out, no top team in Europe keeps selling their best talent the way Arsenal do, and they keep increasing their worth at a faster rate than we do.

Much of what you are saying there is plausible, I don't dispute it. Especially the comments on our feeder club status which for me demonstrates the primary shareholder has a relatively short term plan in place which isn't hugely connected to the football on the pitch or even the assets on the pitch. Simplified I would say the ex-shareholders (some of them) saw a way to cash out for a ridiculously huge return on their investment and the new guy saw extensive short term profit opportunities with sponsorships and merchandising. And the whole business of Usmanov having his cash tied up in the club but with zero say is highly suspicious. Why would he bother with such an arrangement if he thought Kroenke would be around for the next 20 years? Wenger's job through all of this has been to keep us relatively competitive on a minimal spend. He's achieved that and nobody can deny it because the facts are there to see. We don't like it, we hate the way the football has stagnated and the chance of a meaningful trophy has vanished over the hill, but what we want and what the board wants are clearly two different things.

This is why I see the whole Wenger out campaign as a waste of time. We think he's fucking up, the board knows he'd delivering. So the only way to get him out if the board won't do the job is to make his life so miserable he prefers to quit. And that's something I won't do out of respect for what the guy did for us in the past. I'm not denying anything but I'm not up for a witch hunt either. Now as for those ****s who have raped and are raping the club we have all supported for year, damn right i don't respect them. The guys who ever did anything for us have been pushed out or are dead. It's just the money grabbing bastards left, the fuckers who have watched the club go down and down and down and then stand there and say they are delighted with the results. For sure, fuck them.

[Xhaka Can’t]

can we count that as a trophy?

Knock yourself out.

[GP]

Knock yourself out.

Can I knock him out instead?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Agreed. We have just witnessed a performance that was so unbelievably dire it begs all sorts of questions and reactions. After all, there was no football worth talking about. So if we're limited to that the thread should really be empty bar the kick off time and final result.

It was 0-0.

Biggest problem I have though is the petty point scoring that in fact yields as many points as the goals in this match.

You and PnG are far and away from being the issue on this thread.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Can I knock him out instead?

Dunno.

Can you?

[GP]

I don't know :upset:

[fakeyank]

I just don't get this argument. He doesn't quit because he's the manager of the club. Being the manager does not automatically give him the right to dictate the financial affairs of the club. It wouldn't give him the right to dictate the financial affairs of any club. Redknapp, Benitez, Mancini, either sacked or on the verge because they want one thing but the owners want something else. Yes, they leave "by mutual consent" - code for being sacked. Name any manager that dictates the finances, or name the club that Wenger should quit and move to where he will have control of the finances. Apparently he's asking the board to pay Walcott more. How does this fit in with the general ideas of him being in complete control of the club or reluctant to spend? Isn't it enough to highlight his ongoing faults in terms of his actual role without making up shit about stuff he has no control over?

I agree with the poster above - complaining is one thing but abusing Wenger, calling him a ****, it's a miserable way to carry on. Just about everyone disagrees with him now but that doesn't eliminate what he did for the club in the past and for that alone he deserves respect, even if it's respectful disagreement.

You have got to be kidding me NQ! How can a man with your intelligence not get a simple argument. AW has a job and he needs tools to do that job- players, medical staff, coaching staff etc. If he doesnt get his tools to do the job then why is he staying at that job? Specially when he can find a similar job where he will get ALL the tools in the world to do his job!
Its like telling me to do a powerpoint presentation without a computer... If I really needed the job (for money or whatever reasons), I'll stick by it trying to make it work BUT if I have all the money in the world with tons of other companies ready to hire me with all the facilities I need, why on earth would I still stay at my shitty job? Especially if staying at my shitty job means destroying the good legacy I built over a decade.

For a second, I'll buy your argument that AW is a helpless goat and he cant quit coz PHW and co has his family kidnapped. What do you say about the absolute dismal level of football on offer now? We have had CC squads (with much lesser talent than our starting XI) playing blinding football a few seasons back but somehow the last 2-3 seasons, our football has gone from bad to worse. No directness no movement no passion!! These, my good sir, dont come with money.. they come from the manager and coaching staff!

[AKBapologist]

Pokes head in thread.

I wonder how many games Theo Walcotts involved with have ended 0-0 this season?

*whistles*



sent from a fone

[fakeyank]

:gp:

Arsenal are only at the level they are because of Wenger. People would do to remember that.

Yes, he should be making more of the resources he has at his disposal - we DO have more money than he spends, whether he doesn't spend it out of principle, looking longer term, downright delusion. Who knows?
But the fact remains he took Arsenal to a level they hadn't experienced since the 30s before he came.
Graham arguably laid some of the groundwork but his later sides were awful to watch and fairly mid-table.

I suggest people look at our history from from the 50s to the end of the 80s. We won fewer trophies in those 40 years than Wenger won in 8 years. This sense of entitlement we have is mostly because of Wenger. He has failed to maintain the level of the first half of his time with us but he's kept us up there in an era when billionaires have distorted the market and other clubs have spent big to try and break into the top 4 and failed. That shouldn't be dismissed as an achievement - neither should his failure to land a trophy despite being in a position to several times be overlooked.

It is probably time for him to move on now but I will never show him the disrespect that some on here do and I don't think him leaving is a magic bullet which will solve all our issues.

I dont know about others but AW gets abuse from me coz he takes us for a toss and talks shit whenever he opens his mouth. Illusionary domination, 2% away from domination, handbrake etc takes the piss. Add to it the very clear fact that he IS one of the crooks looting the club and being a mouth piece for the board rather than being a football manager.

I say thank you to him for 96-2006 but ever since the move to Emirates, he is not the same AW as before. He talks like the boards b*tch rather than AFC's football manager. I am not even going to go into his stupid formations, tactics and clear lack of understanding of the art of defense or playing players to their strength etc etc

[Xhaka Can’t]

FY, have you considered that he loves the Club and still thinks there will be the prospect of success at some point within the set parameters?

Frankly, I think he is wrong - he is very very unlikely to win another trophy with the culture and tactics for which he is wholly responsible. He really needs someone he respects and listens to to tell him that enough is enough and that it aint going to work.

Of course he could just be in it for the money - it is always a possibility when people and money get intertwined (that is a word isn't it?) but my gut feeling is that he does love the Club - it is pretty much his life's work and it just may be too hard for him to voluntarily walk away. But For his sake and our, it is something he must do.

[Marc Overmars]

To put some perspective on how slowly we've started this season, we had more wins at this stage in 94/95, the year we finished below Spurs and one of Graham's turgid final years. We're really struggling to break down and see teams off this season, at this rate we're going to end up in mid-table. We've lost the edge that made us the best of the rest, my biggest worry now is that we're just one of the rest.

It was RVC who was turning these draws into wins last year and that's why he was irreplacable.

We just have to string a few wins together now, I don't think we've won back to back games since Liverpool and Southampton. We'll never get into the top 4 dropping points every other week.

[Grebbo]

It's pretty simple really, last year we were a one man team. We sold that one man. Game over.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's pretty simple really, last year we were a one man team. We sold that one man. Game over.

It is a bit more complex than that. We also sold our second best player.

And it just seemed so ad hoc and unplanned, as if there was an unexpected windfall to be had and we took advantage, no matter what the effect on the team.

I completely disagree with the Van Persie sale, but understand how it came about.

Song....well that is even more "wtf?", than Saturday's substitutions.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Grebbo]

I think Wenger sold Song becuase he thought Diaby would be fit

:haha:

[Letters]

I dont know about others but AW gets abuse from me coz he takes us for a toss and talks shit whenever he opens his mouth. Illusionary domination, 2% away from domination, handbrake etc takes the piss. Add to it the very clear fact that he IS one of the crooks looting the club and being a mouth piece for the board rather than being a football manager.

I say thank you to him for 96-2006 but ever since the move to Emirates, he is not the same AW as before. He talks like the boards b*tch rather than AFC's football manager. I am not even going to go into his stupid formations, tactics and clear lack of understanding of the art of defense or playing players to their strength etc etc
By all accounts (no pun intended) Wenger has a lot of money which he just refuses to spend.
Given the lack of trophies, why haven't the board sacked him?

Who stands to gain from us making a lot of money? Wenger gets a big salary, yes, but he gets that whatever happens, unless he gets sacked. Does he get extra money from us being profitable? Does he have shares or get dividends? I wasn't aware that he did. Unless he's looking at the longer term I don't see why he'd care what money we make. If Wenger can keep us top 4 without spending too much then the board gain far more from that than Wenger.

Who stands to gain from us winning trophies? It would mean some more income I guess but not a significant amount given how much we're raking in anyway. Who was on the board in the 30s when we had that period of dominance? I've no idea. But I and pretty much every Gooner knows who Herbert Chapman was. The manager gets the credit when the team does well and the flak when we don't. The board get very little of either. Point being Wenger is the one getting the flak most directly now, to suggest he doesn't care and is just happy to keep getting in his salary and doesn't care how we do is somewhat unfair. He does come out with some shit but you can see by his reactions he's not happy when things aren't going well. I don't believe he's able to do anything about it any more but it's not because of indifference.

FY, you keep saying Wenger has changed and your only basis for that is that we used to win a lot of trophies and now we don't. Is the only explanation that Wenger has changed? You're completely ignoring all the changes in football over the last 15 years. IMO the problem is that Wenger hasn't changed. Everything around him has changed and while he hasn't completely failed - some people on here underestimate how hard it is to keep a side in the top 4 every year for so long - he hasn't adapted enough to the modern game. I applauded his youth policy and he built some good sides with it but he needs to mix that with a bit of pragmatism.

He does deserve some flak, but not abuse.

[Power n Glory]

And let's not forget that he has kept Theo and Arshavin on the bench all season. Despite their faults, historically they have the best goals and assists records for this Arsenal team.

[GP]

I would keep Arshavin on the bench as well. The lazy shite.

[Kano]

I dont know about others but AW gets abuse from me coz he takes us for a toss and talks shit whenever he opens his mouth. Illusionary domination, 2% away from domination, handbrake etc takes the piss. Add to it the very clear fact that he IS one of the crooks looting the club and being a mouth piece for the board rather than being a football manager.

I say thank you to him for 96-2006 but ever since the move to Emirates, he is not the same AW as before. He talks like the boards b*tch rather than AFC's football manager. I am not even going to go into his stupid formations, tactics and clear lack of understanding of the art of defense or playing players to their strength etc etc
you also do because you are an internet fan (living abroad of course) so when you are so detached from the live experience it is easier to throw shit at the manager. chants toward the man are fine and he himself said last week that he accepts fans have the right to complain but the amount of insults thrown at the stadium will be less proportionate than those who never go to a game and casually throw it onto the net.

[Cripps_orig]

And let's not forget that he has kept Theo and Arshavin on the bench all season. Despite their faults, historically they have the best goals and assists records for this Arsenal team.Pretty much. Arguably our 2 most creative players. Arshavin in his cameos has looked very good to go on from his excellent Euro 2012 performances and deserves to start games. Theo is a no brainer

[Marc Overmars]

The Telegraph say we have 40m ready to spend in January. :lol:

[dazthegooner]

We probably do won't spend it though :rolleyes:

[Letters]

The Telegraph say we have 40m ready to spend in January. :lol:
The board's Christmas Party is going to be awesome

[Syn]

Indeed. We shan’t be deterred by the lowly scum that need not speak the Queen’s English. Spend it all on hookers and blow. I say.

[Niall_Quinn]

You have got to be kidding me NQ! How can a man with your intelligence not get a simple argument. AW has a job and he needs tools to do that job- players, medical staff, coaching staff etc. If he doesnt get his tools to do the job then why is he staying at that job? Specially when he can find a similar job where he will get ALL the tools in the world to do his job!
Its like telling me to do a powerpoint presentation without a computer... If I really needed the job (for money or whatever reasons), I'll stick by it trying to make it work BUT if I have all the money in the world with tons of other companies ready to hire me with all the facilities I need, why on earth would I still stay at my shitty job? Especially if staying at my shitty job means destroying the good legacy I built over a decade.

For a second, I'll buy your argument that AW is a helpless goat and he cant quit coz PHW and co has his family kidnapped. What do you say about the absolute dismal level of football on offer now? We have had CC squads (with much lesser talent than our starting XI) playing blinding football a few seasons back but somehow the last 2-3 seasons, our football has gone from bad to worse. No directness no movement no passion!! These, my good sir, dont come with money.. they come from the manager and coaching staff!

My argument is not and never has been that Wenger is a helpless goat. If you read my posts this is very clear. I have said there are many problems at the club, some of which fall into Wenger's area of responsibility, others that don't. Read the posts, not just a couple of sentences, if you want to understand where I am coming from.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Telegraph say we have 40m ready to spend in January. :lol:

The £30mill war chest is now a £40mill war chest. Just shows what a huge sponsorship deal can do. Ivan said we'll have money to spend in the summer so the Telegraph must have skipped over that. Undoubtedly we'll all sit around the January transfer thread in a few weeks and get impatient, frustrated, angry, furious and finally light hearted and resigned as normal.

[LDG]

The £30mill war chest is now a £40mill war chest. Just shows what a huge sponsorship deal can do. Ivan said we'll have money to spend in the summer so the Telegraph must have skipped over that. Undoubtedly we'll all sit around the January transfer thread in a few weeks and get impatient, frustrated, angry, furious and finally light hearted and resigned as normal.

"We always look to strengthen if we find the right player. But they must be better than what we have. Must be little bit top top super awlsome quality. If we can, we will do it, yes. No ( transfers ). Little bit ( madness ). 2-3 weeks. Are we close. No. We will do it. No. Basis of quality team. I believe in this team"

[Syn]

"We always look to strengthen if we find the right player. But they must be better than what we have. Must be little bit top top super awlsome quality. If we can, we will do it, yes. No ( transfers ). Little bit ( madness ). 2-3 weeks. Are we close. No. We will do it. No. Basis of quality team. I believe in this team"

You and MS should have a Wenger off.

I'll hand you topics to discuss and you must Wenger the shit out of eachother.

[LDG]

I must say, you are interesting too.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The £30mill Board chest is now a £40mill Board chest. Just shows what a huge sponsorship deal can do. Ivan said we'll have money to spend in the summer so the Telegraph must have skipped over that. Undoubtedly we'll all sit around the January transfer thread in a few weeks and get impatient, frustrated, angry, furious and finally light hearted and resigned as normal.

Fixed it for you.

[LDG]

Fixed it for you.

What's a war board? :blink:

[Syn]

Well I must tell you as well you know that I have been as well doing this for 7 months. Is there a chance I could enter? Mathematically there is a strong possibility, of course. But no.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What's a war board? :blink:

A board at war.

[Syn]

Now it's changed to board chest. Brilliant.

[LDG]

I too have a broad chest.

[Letters]

chests :bow:

##

[Olivier's xmas twist]

chests :bow:

##

Prefer draughts tbh.

[LDG]

:haha:

[Syn]

:lol:

[Letters]

Prefer draughts tbh.
:haha:

[Kano]

The £30mill war chest is now a £40mill war chest. Just shows what a huge sponsorship deal can do. Ivan said we'll have money to spend in the summer so the Telegraph must have skipped over that. Undoubtedly we'll all sit around the January transfer thread in a few weeks and get impatient, frustrated, angry, furious and finally light hearted and resigned as normal.
you lot are fucking useless

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-will-have-over-70-million-to-spend-on-new-players-after-agreeing-lucrative-fiveyear-sponsorship-deal-with-emirates-8346803.html

£70m and rising.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

you lot are fucking useless

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-will-have-over-70-million-to-spend-on-new-players-after-agreeing-lucrative-fiveyear-sponsorship-deal-with-emirates-8346803.html

£70m and rising.

Can buy 2 Andy Carrols with that :coffee: #just saying

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Premier League deals

Man United Chevrolet £51m/yr (from 2014-15 season)

Liverpool St'ard Chart'd £20m/yr

Man City Etihad £20m/yr

Sunderland Invest in Africa £20m/yr

Arsenal Emirates £15m/yr

Chelsea Samsung £14m/yr

Newcastle Virgin Money £10m/yr

Tottenham Aurasma £10m/yr

Aston Villa Genting £8m/yr

Arsenal (existing) Emirates £5.5m/yr


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...s-8346803.html

[Fist of Lehmann]

Whaat the fuuuuuck. Utd are going to be getting £51m per year for their shirt deal.

Even Sunderland have a better current deal than our new one.

Gazebo you're getting £2m a year for this shit?

[Niall_Quinn]

you lot are fucking useless

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-will-have-over-70-million-to-spend-on-new-players-after-agreeing-lucrative-fiveyear-sponsorship-deal-with-emirates-8346803.html

£70m and rising.

This is getting ridiculous. Next they'll be saying Stan is putting money into the club he loves.

[Fist of Lehmann]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...s-8346803.html

How is our deal now worse then Villa's.

Jesus Charlie. Sometimes I think you may be a genius, sometimes...not so much.

[server too busy!]

I thought we were getting £150m over 5 years....how does that equate to £15m a year?

[Letters]

you lot are fucking useless

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-will-have-over-70-million-to-spend-on-new-players-after-agreeing-lucrative-fiveyear-sponsorship-deal-with-emirates-8346803.html

£70m and rising.That's a lot of chest ##

[Fist of Lehmann]

I thought we were getting £150m over 5 years....how does that equate to £15m a year?

£150 includes stadium naming rights extension.

One thing I don't get. Why did they ask for the deal to be so heavily front-loaded again? After the self same thing fucked us over last time?

[Özim]

£150 includes stadium naming rights extension.

One thing I don't get. Why did they ask for the deal to be so heavily front-loaded again? After the self same thing fucked us over last time?
I think it's because when you buy a yacht you have to put up a sizeable deposit up front, then and only then will they start building it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Jesus Charlie. Sometimes I think you may be a genius, sometimes...not so much.

Ah seen the error of my ways now. Got confused, though they were all existing deals except ours.

[Power n Glory]

Much of what you are saying there is plausible, I don't dispute it. Especially the comments on our feeder club status which for me demonstrates the primary shareholder has a relatively short term plan in place which isn't hugely connected to the football on the pitch or even the assets on the pitch. Simplified I would say the ex-shareholders (some of them) saw a way to cash out for a ridiculously huge return on their investment and the new guy saw extensive short term profit opportunities with sponsorships and merchandising. And the whole business of Usmanov having his cash tied up in the club but with zero say is highly suspicious. Why would he bother with such an arrangement if he thought Kroenke would be around for the next 20 years? Wenger's job through all of this has been to keep us relatively competitive on a minimal spend. He's achieved that and nobody can deny it because the facts are there to see. We don't like it, we hate the way the football has stagnated and the chance of a meaningful trophy has vanished over the hill, but what we want and what the board wants are clearly two different things.

This is why I see the whole Wenger out campaign as a waste of time. We think he's fucking up, the board knows he'd delivering. So the only way to get him out if the board won't do the job is to make his life so miserable he prefers to quit. And that's something I won't do out of respect for what the guy did for us in the past. I'm not denying anything but I'm not up for a witch hunt either. Now as for those ****s who have raped and are raping the club we have all supported for year, damn right i don't respect them. The guys who ever did anything for us have been pushed out or are dead. It's just the money grabbing bastards left, the fuckers who have watched the club go down and down and down and then stand there and say they are delighted with the results. For sure, fuck them.

The boundaries between Board and manager have been blurred in a major way and that's part of the problem.

As said before, Wenger will quite happily tell the fans that a ticket hike is necessary so we can compete with the other elite clubs. That's wrong imo and why he gets lumped in with PHW, Stan and Gazidis.

[GP]

I thought we were getting £150m over 5 years....how does that equate to £15m a year?

Yeah it's a misleading article. The Stadium naming rights aren't worth much on their own, so it should have us at £30m/season and 2nd on the list.

[Marc Overmars]

I'm looking forward to next summer just to see if we actually do anything with the cash (:lol:), they'll have a hard time trying to justify yet more limited spending coupled with player departures.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

To put some perspective on how slowly we've started this season, we had more wins at this stage in 94/95, the year we finished below Spurs and one of Graham's turgid final years. We're really struggling to break down and see teams off this season, at this rate we're going to end up in mid-table. We've lost the edge that made us the best of the rest, my biggest worry now is that we're just one of the rest.

It was RVC who was turning these draws into wins last year and that's why he was irreplacable.

We just have to string a few wins together now, I don't think we've won back to back games since Liverpool and Southampton. We'll never get into the top 4 dropping points every other week.

I think we will only because the quality of the league is so poor, teams like Everton will drop of the pace soon. Spurs are not the same as last season. All We need is a run and we'll be fine. If All the others who are going for top 4 pulled miles ahead by now then we'd have to worry.


Can I knock him out instead?

:haha:

By all accounts (no pun intended) Wenger has a lot of money which he just refuses to spend.
Given the lack of trophies, why haven't the board sacked him?

Who stands to gain from us making a lot of money? Wenger gets a big salary, yes, but he gets that whatever happens, unless he gets sacked. Does he get extra money from us being profitable? Does he have shares or get dividends? I wasn't aware that he did. Unless he's looking at the longer term I don't see why he'd care what money we make. If Wenger can keep us top 4 without spending too much then the board gain far more from that than Wenger.

Who stands to gain from us winning trophies? It would mean some more income I guess but not a significant amount given how much we're raking in anyway. Who was on the board in the 30s when we had that period of dominance? I've no idea. But I and pretty much every Gooner knows who Herbert Chapman was. The manager gets the credit when the team does well and the flak when we don't. The board get very little of either. Point being Wenger is the one getting the flak most directly now, to suggest he doesn't care and is just happy to keep getting in his salary and doesn't care how we do is somewhat unfair. He does come out with some shit but you can see by his reactions he's not happy when things aren't going well. I don't believe he's able to do anything about it any more but it's not because of indifference.

He does deserve some flak, but not abuse.

This is why i don't see what he gets as a problem, his bosses pay him what they want is up to them. Only a fool would turn down money being offered to them.


He does deserve some flak, but not abuse

Very true.

[Niall_Quinn]

£150 includes stadium naming rights extension.

One thing I don't get. Why did they ask for the deal to be so heavily front-loaded again? After the self same thing fucked us over last time?

Usmanov won't need the money.

[Kano]

front load it, increase the value of the club and sell up in a couple of years when ffp kicks in

[LDG]

front load it, increase the value of the club and sell up in a couple of years when ffp kicks in

Usmanov takes over, owns 99.9%, and there you have it. The next petro-club.

[fakeyank]

you also do because you are an internet fan (living abroad of course) so when you are so detached from the live experience it is easier to throw shit at the manager. chants toward the man are fine and he himself said last week that he accepts fans have the right to complain but the amount of insults thrown at the stadium will be less proportionate than those who never go to a game and casually throw it onto the net.

I throw the same abuse when I am in the stadium! :lol:

Inshahallah I will be at one more game this season and hope to continue that tradition IF the same shower of shite continues.

[Kano]

Usmanov takes over, owns 99.9%, and there you have it. The next petro-club.
For the foreseeable future we are stuck in billionaires’ row. The thing is, at some point the old guard would’ve had to have sold up and if it hadn’t of been the yank and the ruskie it would’ve been some other rich ****s that couldn’t give a shit.

The current lot are setting out a template for future owners to copy and improve upon.

[Niall_Quinn]

front load it, increase the value of the club and sell up in a couple of years when ffp kicks in

They'll have a hard time increasing the effective value of the club now because the primary shareholding is spoken for by two individuals. Even if the share price rises on paper it doesn't mean a lot because these two can just horse trade whatever deal suits them. Instead I would imagine the front loading is to counter a possible exit from the CL and set aside an amount for a couple of transfers designed to appease the fans and stabilise the ship until Kroenke can cash out.

[Xhaka Can’t]

£150 includes stadium naming rights extension.

One thing I don't get. Why did they ask for the deal to be so heavily front-loaded again? After the self same thing fucked us over last time?

It fucks us over in terms of cash flow. However the overall amount needs to be accounted for in each of the accounting years covered by the deal.

So even though we are accounting for income on the current deal and this goes towards any profit or loss, we aren't getting the liquid funds because the bulk of these will have been received years ago.

So, when we report a £30M profit for the current year, while correct, some of this profit will relate to funds received years ago so go no way towards our current liquidity.

Excuse the briefness of the accounting explanation, it is tough to do on a phone. But yeah, you are right, we are about to repeat the past and could store up future liquidity problems while turning what on the face of it looks like healthy profits.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Fist of Lehmann]

It fucks us over in terms of cash flow. However the overall amount needs to be accounted for in each of the accounting years covered by the deal.

So even though we are accounting for income on the current deal and this goes towards any profit or loss, we aren't getting the liquid funds because the bulk of these will have been received years ago.

So, when we report a £30M profit for the current year, while correct, some of this profit will relate to funds received years ago so go no way towards our current liquidity.

Excuse the briefness of the accounting explanation, it is tough to do on a phone. But yeah, you are right, we are about to repeat the past and could store up future liquidity problems while turning what on the face of it looks like healthy profits.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

I have a maths degree and what is this?

Actually that's a pretty clear explanation. Do you think that the aggressive transfer profiteering we've seen in the last couple of seasons are down to similar cashflow problems at the end of our current deal?

Are we selling off tomorrow in order to maintain healthy share price today?

[LDG]

I have a maths degree and what is this?

Actually that's a pretty clear explanation. Do you think that the aggressive transfer profiteering we've seen in the last couple of seasons are down to similar cashflow problems at the end of our current deal?

Are we selling off tomorrow in order to maintain healthy share price today?

I should imagine, we're banking on other commercial revenue offsetting it this time.

However N_Q has it summed up I reckon. I'm sure swissramble will be filling us in shortly too ##

[Kano]

i thought this was quite an interesting view from a fan:


Which Arsenal Do You Want Back?
I was at a wet and miserable Villa Park on Saturday night, and I was as disappointed as the next Gooner to only get a point, although I would give some credit to a well-organised and hard-working Villa side. But that isn't really the point of this mail. Towards the end, as has been jumped on by eager members of the press, Arsenal fans asked if Wenger knew what he was doing, and that they want their Arsenal back. I'm sure there will be comment on the first aspect of that, and I will not add to it. However, it did bring back the question I've been meaning to ask for a long time - which Arsenal do people want back?

There are a few angles to view this from. In terms of the relationship between club and fan it is pretty low at present. So maybe this is it? Maybe people are harking back to a previous age of fan engagement and low ticket prices? I'm old enough (not quite 40 yet though - thanks) to remember the formation of the first independent Arsenal fan groups in protest to the David Dein created Bond scheme. My 'Guide to Football League Grounds' 1992 edition shows that Arsenal had the highest ticket prices in the league in conjunction with Man United. So my conclusion is that it isn't this Arsenal that people want back. It's always been expensive in relation to other clubs, and the club and fanbase have been fractured for many years.

Maybe it is the ownership. The silent, rich American who is totally detached from the real fan. Who appoints a stooge in Gazidis to do his dirty work. Now, I have major issues with the ownership at present but is it that different from the past? I mean, can we all relate to the Hill-Woods or Bracewell-Smiths of this world? Again, I think this is a red herring. The ownership of Arsenal has always been elitist and detached. But, the club has also always been well run financially. I see little difference bar the nationality.

I hear that David Dein is the answer. A real Arsenal man. He'll bring our Arsenal back. This is the man who introduced the Bond scheme, knocked down the North Bank, wanted to move us to Wembley and then sold his shares to an Uzbeki 'businessman' for a huge profit - leading to the current impasse we have at ownership level. Add in his solicitor son, Darren, who has been a major player in all the recent big money transfers out of the club in recent years (Fabregas, Nasri, RVP all had Dein in their 'team') and I need convincing that Dein is the knight in white armour some seem to think.

Arsenal are actually a football club, as well as a well run business, so let's consider the situation on the pitch. Since 1996-97 (and the arrival of our current manager) we have not finished outside the top four. Prior to this we had finished in the top four only 25 times. Our average league position is higher than ever it has been. We haven't won a trophy for seven years now (© every newspaper in the UK) but in the 60s we won none at all. 70s? 4. 80s? 2. The period since the title in 1989 (our first in 18 years) has been our best in post war history. Two titles in the 90s and two in the 2000s together with a number of cups of various importance. So which Arsenal do we want back?

The current situation on the pitch is frustrating. But Arsenal do not have a divine right to win every game, or to win trophies and we need to accept that. I would agree that there are short-term failings in the side, and that the apparent reluctance to spend money is irritating but this isn't getting 'our' Arsenal back. Because I'm not sure what 'our' Arsenal looks like. Is it the failing 1980s version, the nearly relegated 70s version or the current consistent but lacking glory version?

There's a load more to say on this subject but I'll spare the rest of the readership the debate. I am genuinely interested in comments from fellow Gooners about this - which Arsenal do we want? I'll sign off with a couple of quotes from people who know the club far better than I.

"I really like Arsenal. Do you really like Arsenal, or only Arsenal with trophies?" - Dennis Bergkamp.
"Which Arsenal do they want back, the one Arsene created?" - Tony Adams.

[Marc Overmars]

That's a very good post.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i thought this was quite an interesting view from a fan:

Good article.

[Marc Overmars]

I think "We want our Arsenal back" is just a general chant of disdain towards the board, Wenger and the team, rather than something that has a specific meaning.

[LDG]

I think "We want our Arsenal back" is just a general chant of disdain towards the board, Wenger and the team, rather than something that has a specific meaning.

:gp:

A venting of frustration that is now at overload.

When all you get is soundbites from politicians, you get the wrath of the electorate. Except, we don't even get to vote. They just take our money and fuck off.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think "We want our Arsenal back" is just a general chant of disdain towards the board, Wenger and the team, rather than something that has a specific meaning.

Some people are frustated, but some follow the crowd and believe it has a meaning to it.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Arsenal I want back is the one that plays exciting football that was fun to watch. The football we play at the moment is shit. This is certainly something Wenger can be criticised for. Why did we dispense with power and pace to replace it with ponderous, tippy-tappy bullshit nothing ball? I hate the shit we play now, I can't bear to watch it, yet am compelled because I'm a fan. It's torture, the most pointless football I have ever seen. Even as recently as two years ago there was a degree of entertainment in our play. Now there's nothing, maybe 2-3 snippets of entertainment a month if we are lucky. It's intolerable and made even worse by the media still banging on about our entertaining style. It makes you wonder if you are insane, you see the boring shit and then you see the glowing reports and think WTF? What am I missing? Did I imagine the footie we used to play?

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

A venting of frustration that is now at overload.

When all you get is soundbites from politicians, you get the wrath of the electorate. Except, we don't even get to vote. They just take our money and fuck off.

It's even worse than that. They don't fuck off, they stay.

[LDG]

It's even worse than that. They don't fuck off, they stay.

:(

They're like drug dealers, and we're the addicts....except it's not heroin, or any of the good shit. It's like being addicted to marmite when you don't even like it.

[Letters]

The Arsenal I want back is the one that plays exciting football that was fun to watch. The football we play at the moment is shit. This is certainly something Wenger can be criticised for. Why did we dispense with power and pace to replace it with ponderous, tippy-tappy bullshit nothing ball? I hate the shit we play now, I can't bear to watch it, yet am compelled because I'm a fan. It's torture, the most pointless football I have ever seen. Even as recently as two years ago there was a degree of entertainment in our play. Now there's nothing, maybe 2-3 snippets of entertainment a month if we are lucky. It's intolerable and made even worse by the media still banging on about our entertaining style. It makes you wonder if you are insane, you see the boring shit and then you see the glowing reports and think WTF? What am I missing? Did I imagine the footie we used to play?It's not as bad as you're making out, it's not as good as it used to be.
It's better than the long ball 1-0 to the Arsenal shite in the mid-nineties.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The Arsenal I want back is the one that plays exciting football that was fun to watch. The football we play at the moment is shit. This is certainly something Wenger can be criticised for. Why did we dispense with power and pace to replace it with ponderous, tippy-tappy bullshit nothing ball? I hate the shit we play now, I can't bear to watch it, yet am compelled because I'm a fan. It's torture, the most pointless football I have ever seen. Even as recently as two years ago there was a degree of entertainment in our play. Now there's nothing, maybe 2-3 snippets of entertainment a month if we are lucky. It's intolerable and made even worse by the media still banging on about our entertaining style. It makes you wonder if you are insane, you see the boring shit and then you see the glowing reports and think WTF? What am I missing? Did I imagine the footie we used to play?

Tippy tappy was good when we had Quality like Cesc and Nasri. Once we lost quality and good passers of the ball it does look slow and rubbish. Though we do tend to mix and match it this season.

Though with the players we have don't matter what footie with play, without quality it will always look boring. its not like we have world class players and are stuck playing this slow tempo pass pass footie.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's not as bad as you're making out, it's not as good as it used to be.
It's better than the long ball 1-0 to the Arsenal shite in the mid-nineties.

True. It's worse. The Villa game was the worst football match I can recall enduring in 30 years. It was embarrassingly bad. At least there was a bit of cut and thrust to the drivel being served up in the 80s and 90s. What we are seeing now is nondescript and sterile. Pointless. I wish they'd just stand still and do nothing and then there would at least be an excuse for the utter futility of our style of play. Tip tap tip tap tip tap tip tap, give it away, other shit team gives it away, tip tap, one shot on goal in 90 minutes, corner blasted at the first defender, cross goes out of play, play if forward, no runners, play it back, do it again, tip tap, pray for improvement in the second half, if can't be that bad again, but it is, in fact it's worse, tip tap tip tap, knife, wrists, gushing, imminent death, saved by an interfering busybody, recovery, switch on the game, tip tap tip tap, get religion, beg for forgiveness, ask God for mercy, pray the devil takes me to burn in hell so I don't have to endure the tip tap tip tap pass it back slow it down, kill me, please kill me, tip tap...

[LDG]

:haha:

[Grebbo]

The infuriating thing about the Villa game was the amount of times Merts would pass it to a midfielder and the midfielder would just pass it back to him straight away, time after time after time.

It happened a ridiculous amount of times and was piss boiling.

Merts should have told them to fuck off.

Fuck that shit.

[Cripps_orig]

Arteta :bow:

[Özim]

It's not as bad as you're making out, it's not as good as it used to be.
It's better than the long ball 1-0 to the Arsenal shite in the mid-nineties.
I find it more boring now without question, sometimes it hard to stay awake for a match...it really is that dull, no desire to win the ball, repetitive, ineffective, sh*t subsitutions.....it really is that bad.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Arteta :bow:

Impossible, or better yet, highly improbable.

Put him on trial for said accusation and all he'd have to do is plead anonymity to bust the case.

[Globalgunner]

The Arsenal the fans want back is the upwardly mobile team of the late and early turn of century. The team that played for us in the years 96=2004 was dynamic, tough, athletic and overall fearless. This was a Wenger made team but essentially not made entirely in his image. It was also not without its flaws too. However the core of Englishness made it strong and moreover, they hated defeat. This is a team that went to OT and expected to win. Not anymore. Norwich and Wigan approach these games with a better mindset than we do. I blame Fergie for this, his ability to install a greater warrior spirit in even his average teams finally broke Wengers spirit in 2005 with the famous defeat at Highbury noted for the pre-game flare-up between Vieira and Keane. In that game we went for it and ended up thoroughly embarrassed at home. this led to the utterly coward display we gave at the FA cup final that year. In his mind Wenger realised he couldnt beat Fergie in a battle of wills, simply because SAF trains his soldiers better for war. It has been the same ever since and our teams have progressively lost their willpower ever since. Since then Wenger has eschewed signing big personalities for more malleable types...his so called youth project. He has gone down that road and still ended up with nothing to show for it

We are now left with a man at his wits end but who will not acknowledge it to himself or anyone outside and who now replaces deep thinking with effusive bursts of pique. He is trapped in a well cash padded prison of his own making. He will indulge himself in it for as long as he is not called out from his reverie.

Why should we not expect more when we pay the highest match day costs in the whole of human existence, with the 4th highest wage bill and 5th highest turnover worldwide. previously the mantra was Arsenal always come 1st or 2nd. Now we have changed it to 4th at worst, what next?. Europa cup dreams?. This is not to detract from what Wenger has achieved but why should we go against the grain of human existence for always striving for better days and decide that these good times are now part of our history, Do our fortunes rise and wane with our current manager`s abilities.

Will someone tell Manunited fans that the real united is the one that went 25 years without the title or Liverpool that 7 CL titles is all written in their destiny. Somehow we have created a parallel reality for our Wengerworld, one where failure is really a mini victory cast in bad light. Where instead of football what we are really engaged in is an expensive game of musical chairs where we have to accept that in reality WE are the hapless dancer that is likely to be left without a seat. This would have been palatable if some finacial tsunami had befallen us like Leeds or Portsmouth where stark reality has no counter argument, but our finances are strong and viable yet our football prospects have nosedived. Enough of this self emposed defeatism please. We can do better...we deserve better than this smoke and mirrors charade.

[Fist of Lehmann]

This happens when the opposition get tight to our out balls.

In previous seasons we've had both Jack and Song, or Arteta and Song to pick up possession from the back four.

This season we've moved from a double pivot to a single pivot with the other midfielder in more of a box to box role. The problem with playing Rambot in there is that he wants always to be little bit ahead of the ball. Daiby is the one player who seems to have grasped this role better than the others or maybe is better suited to it physically. Wilshire will get it eventually. Rammingspeed, I literally don't know.

In the immediate-term we have a problem to solve because tactically it is now fairly easy to neutralise us. The pattern of play we saw against Villa is now a fairly common looking one.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's not as bad as you're making out, it's not as good as it used to be.
It's better than the long ball 1-0 to the Arsenal shite in the mid-nineties.

It is on a par with it - at best.

[GP]

What's wrong with you?

You used to be reasonable, now you're all hysterical.

[Xhaka Can’t]

What's wrong with you?

You used to be reasonable, now you're all hysterical.

I haven't got time to make long ass posts like that.

[Power n Glory]

It is bad because there is nothing to look forwards to anymore. We have no chance of winning the league, no chance of winning the Champs League and we don't go all out for domestic cups either. It's that bad when you already know the hopeless outcome before the season is over. Even on match days I can tell the game will be boring from the team selection.

[Özim]

It is bad because there is nothing to look forwards to anymore. We have no chance of winning the league, no chance of winning the Champs League and we don't go all out for domestic cups either. It's that bad when you already know the hopeless outcome before the season is over. Even on match days I can tell the game will be boring from the team selection.
:goodpost: Knowing the outcome and taking out the unpredictability takes any excitement away, in the Graham days I always believed we could upset the odds and beat superior teams.


Also f*ck me is the manager boring say the same sh*t most of the time, even transfer windows are a total bore, every season is much like the last.

We might not win under a new manager but at least we'd have something to look forward to and some changes.

[gooners]

FY, have you considered that he loves the Club and still thinks there will be the prospect of success at some point within the set parameters?

Frankly, I think he is wrong - he is very very unlikely to win another trophy with the culture and tactics for which he is wholly responsible. He really needs someone he respects and listens to to tell him that enough is enough and that it aint going to work.

Of course he could just be in it for the money - it is always a possibility when people and money get intertwined (that is a word isn't it?) but my gut feeling is that he does love the Club - it is pretty much his life's work and it just may be too hard for him to voluntarily walk away. But For his sake and our, it is something he must do.

For 7mil a year, i'd love to fuck around with my 'life's work' and overstay my usefulness at an organisation out of 'love'. :good:

But then the world of football exists in another galaxy.

My 'gut feeling' is that wenger has such say in affairs at the club that i doubt even fergie does at utd. Mourinho said it best when he questioned how wenger justifies his job at a supposedly top club without even the pressure to win anything for years; and this was years ago --- i can'timagine what he thinks of it now. But i guess there is more to football than trophies --- which is what i thought the fulhams,evertons etc and even the spuds console themselves with.

How the mighty have fallen!

[Niall_Quinn]

:goodpost: Knowing the outcome and taking out the unpredictability takes any excitement away, in the Graham days I always believed we could upset the odds and beat superior teams.

Or at least kick the shit out of them in a drunken brawl.

[Letters]

True. It's worse. The Villa game was the worst football match I can recall enduring in 30 years. It was embarrassingly bad. At least there was a bit of cut and thrust to the drivel being served up in the 80s and 90s. What we are seeing now is nondescript and sterile. Pointless. I wish they'd just stand still and do nothing and then there would at least be an excuse for the utter futility of our style of play. Tip tap tip tap tip tap tip tap, give it away, other shit team gives it away, tip tap, one shot on goal in 90 minutes, corner blasted at the first defender, cross goes out of play, play if forward, no runners, play it back, do it again, tip tap, pray for improvement in the second half, if can't be that bad again, but it is, in fact it's worse, tip tap tip tap, knife, wrists, gushing, imminent death, saved by an interfering busybody, recovery, switch on the game, tip tap tip tap, get religion, beg for forgiveness, ask God for mercy, pray the devil takes me to burn in hell so I don't have to endure the tip tap tip tap pass it back slow it down, kill me, please kill me, tip tap...
Did you not enjoy the game then?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Thoroughly.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:goodpost: Knowing the outcome and taking out the unpredictability takes any excitement away, in the Graham days I always believed we could upset the odds and beat superior teams.


Also f*ck me is the manager boring say the same sh*t most of the time, even transfer windows are a total bore, every season is much like the last.

We might not win under a new manager but at least we'd have something to look forward to and some changes.


Also f*ck me is the manager boring say the same sh*t most of the time, even transfer windows are a total bore, every season is much like the last.

What has this have to do with the football we play, anything to have a pop eh?


It is bad because there is nothing to look forwards to anymore. We have no chance of winning the league, no chance of winning the Champs League and we don't go all out for domestic cups either. It's that bad when you already know the hopeless outcome before the season is over. Even on match days I can tell the game will be boring from the team selection.

So if our football is so boring and predictable why do the both of you watch it every week?

[Cripps_orig]

Cos they are Arsenals fans I assume

[Power n Glory]

What has this have to do with the football we play, anything to have a pop eh?



So if our football is so boring and predictable why do the both of you watch it every week?

It's getting to the point where I'm not in a rush to watch our games. Champs League has really lost it's edge and it's the first time in years I've missed a game.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Cos they are Arsenals fans I assume

Well Obviously, but if they say they know the game will be boring from match selection, why watch it then moan when it goes the way they said it would.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's getting to the point where I'm not in a rush to watch our games. Champs League has really lost it's edge and it's the first time in years I've missed a game.

Fair point.

[Özim]

What has this have to do with the football we play, anything to have a pop eh?
Everything

The manager dictates our style of play, as does his unwillingness to change a style that has totally failed to bring success, the players he buys or doesn't buy affects our performances and level of our performances,

[Özim]

Well Obviously, but if they say they know the game will be boring from match selection, why watch it then moan when it goes the way they said it would.
I don't always watch it, sometimes I fall asleep.

[Power n Glory]

Well Obviously, but if they say they know the game will be boring from match selection, why watch it then moan when it goes the way they said it would.

It's the same reason why everyone else follows the team and then comes on to moan about a bad result.

Don't act as if it's a big mystery and don't act as if you don't partake in the odd moan either.

[Power n Glory]

I don't always watch it, sometimes I fall asleep.

:lol: Last season i dozed off to game as well. That never usually happens.

[Grebbo]

Did any Arsenal fan think we'd beat Villa?

A team that is utter shit and just got beaten 5 nil the week before?

Nope, me neither. Us not winning was the most predictable outcome of the weekend.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's the same reason why everyone else follows the team and then comes on to moan about a bad result.

Don't act as if it's a big mystery and don't act as if you don't partake in the odd moan either.

Thing is if i thought from kick off the game would be a waste of time id not watch it. Maybe thats just me.


Don't act as if it's a big mystery and don't act as if you don't partake in the odd moan either.

Im not saying i don't moan or anyone else for that matter. I just don't get the whole. "Well i know were going to loose, but 'ill watch the game and still moan when it goes the way i expected".

[Kano]

i guess its how most lower league fans feel most weekends.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i guess its how most lower league fans feel most weekends.

True, but Lower league fans have alwways been passionate about their clubs.

[Power n Glory]

True, but Lower league fans have alwways been passionate about their clubs.

Fans in general should be passionate about their club which is why I try to watch every game. It's not just a lower league team thing.

[Niall_Quinn]

Did you not enjoy the game then?

I thought the team lacked a little bit sharpness, they were little bit fatigued from the midweek game. But they showed great spirit and I think we can challenge for the title. Why not? Diaby will be back soon then we will see.

[gooners]

Trick question:

Can anyone imagine even the mighty Fergie's job being tenable if he went just 3yrs without winning anything,scraping 4th place and making up the numbers in the CL? :yikes:

I remember when he went a couple of years without winning :haha:

[Power n Glory]

Trick question:

Can anyone imagine even the mighty Fergie's job being tenable if he went just 3yrs without winning anything,scraping 4th place and making up the numbers in the CL? :yikes:

I remember when he went a couple of years without winning :haha:

I can't see him getting fired if he fell on hard times but I doubt he'd allow such a draught to him now. He's retire if he had two or three bad seasons.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Fans in general should be passionate about their club which is why I try to watch every game. It's not just a lower league team thing.

Of Course they should be.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Trick question:

Can anyone imagine even the mighty Fergie's job being tenable if he went just 3yrs without winning anything,scraping 4th place and making up the numbers in the CL? :yikes:

I remember when he went a couple of years without winning :haha:

They never sack him though even if he did go 4 years without winning, but like Png said he walk away and call it time.

[fakeyank]

Trick question:

Can anyone imagine even the mighty Fergie's job being tenable if he went just 3yrs without winning anything,scraping 4th place and making up the numbers in the CL? :yikes:

I remember when he went a couple of years without winning :haha:

More important question is.. would Fergie have stayed on his job being a puppet of the board happy to collect his paycheck, all the while not being able to buy/sell players he wants?

As I typed that, I realized its a rhetorical question. Of course he wouldnt.. SAF is a winner and a football manager, not the board's whore.

[Niall_Quinn]

More important question is.. would Fergie have stayed on his job being a puppet of the board happy to collect his paycheck, all the while not being able to buy/sell players he wants?

As I typed that, I realized its a rhetorical question. Of course he wouldnt.. SAF is a winner and a football manager, not the board's whore.


In fact, this definition is news to Rant for one reason only: we have always believed that it is none of Ferguson’s business, no matter all the silverware and glory he has garnered over the past quarter-century, to define what a ‘fan’ is. Not least because many of the most loyal fans have remained deeply enraged by the Glazer takeover, despite Ferguson’s support of the family these past seven years.

Especially when the former shop-steward, who is paid £6 million-a-year plus bonuses by the Glazers, is so inclined throw insults at whomever disagrees with his assessment that the Americans have been “great” for the club.

http://www.unitedrant.co.uk/opinion/sir-alex-guide-to-being-real-fan/


One of hundreds of similar articles you can find related to Ferguson's support for owners that are hated by the fans. Lot's of examples there about the dramatic decline in Utd's net spending so imported debt can be repaid, plus Ferguson's strange excuses in the transfer market.

[Power n Glory]

One of hundreds of similar articles you can find related to Ferguson's support for owners that are hated by the fans. Lot's of examples there about the dramatic decline in Utd's net spending so imported debt can be repaid, plus Ferguson's strange excuses in the transfer market.

Is there a problem with that?

[gooners]

One of hundreds of similar articles you can find related to Ferguson's support for owners that are hated by the fans. Lot's of examples there about the dramatic decline in Utd's net spending so imported debt can be repaid, plus Ferguson's strange excuses in the transfer market.

fergie is still winning though!

and he is prepared to spend to 24mil on a 29yr old and pay him 200k p/w to keep winning.

he is also prepared to swallow his pride to keep a key asset (rooney) whem he had to.

'board whore' he certainly aint!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

fergie is still winning though!

and he is prepared to spend to 24mil on a 29yr old and pay him 200k p/w to keep winning.

he is also prepared to swallow his pride to keep a key asset (rooney) whem he had to.

'board whore' he certainly aint!

Yeah he is winning still don't stop some manc fans hating him/wanting him out the club. He basically stuck 2 fingers up at the fans protesting against the glazers then again they do pay him so i guess thats why.

Yes he wins, but i doubt he gives a shit about the fans as much as people think he does.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

any man utd fan wanting fergie out doesnt deserve to be a football fan. or live on this planet for that matter.

[GP]

any man utd fan doesnt deserve to be a football fan. or live on this planet for that matter.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

any man utd fan wanting fergie out doesnt deserve to be a football fan. or live on this planet for that matter.

Well its likely he retire in a season anyway don't see the diffrence. If they want him out its for good reason.

[Özim]

Yeah he is winning still don't stop some manc fans hating him/wanting him out the club. He basically stuck 2 fingers up at the fans protesting against the glazers then again they do pay him so i guess thats why.

Yes he wins, but i doubt he gives a shit about the fans as much as people think he does.
Man U fans love him, look at what he's achieved at the club...I'd be frankly amazed if you found any Man U fans that hated him to be honest.

Sure they don't love the Glazers, but it seems things have calmed down a bit since a few years ago and you don't hear so many grumblings as the club is still investing and being successful.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Well its likely he retire in a season anyway don't see the diffrence. If they want him out its for good reason.

er no it isnt. the amount of success he's had there is ridiculous. and he's still going. anyone wanting him gone deserves to be shot.

[Özim]

er no it isnt. the amount of success he's had there is ridiculous. and he's still going. anyone wanting him gone deserves to be shot.
Even if he wasn't winning, he's willing to change things, buy class players and do whatever it takes to try to win which IMO is good enough.....the problem arises when a manager is too rigid, won't change anything or accept he gets things wrong and do something about it.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Even if he wasn't winning, he's willing to change things, buy class players and do whatever it takes to win.

the man doesn't know anything other than success. end of.

he goes 1 season without a trophy and it hurts him. he regains that killer instinct immediately.

wenger goes 7 years without a trophy and apparently him waving his arms on the touchline proves he's hurting. even though his managerial decisions suggest otherwise.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Man U fans love him, look at what he's achieved at the club...I'd be frankly amazed if you found any Man U fans that hated him to be honest.

Sure they don't love the Glazers, but it seems things have calmed down a bit since a few years ago and you don't hear so many grumblings as the club is still investing and being successful.

Trust me there are loads listen to any radio station call in and you will find a few. Its not him they like its what he has done for the club its diffrent.

He was happy to suck the glazers dick but maybe cause they pay him i guess.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

If they want him out its for good reason.

Having another shocker I see

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Having another shocker I see

So no manc fan should want him out, they all have to say he should stay.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

er no it isnt. the amount of success he's had there is ridiculous. and he's still going. anyone wanting him gone deserves to be shot.

So manc fans can only have one Opionion, if they want him out they are wrong. When i say for good reason, i don't mean the idiots who chat rubbish on TS after 1 bad result.

[Özim]

He was happy to suck the glazers dick but maybe cause they pay him i guess.
Not really no, he's at a club who back his vision of success, the board back him when he wants to sign someone and why wouldn't they when he's delivered so much success.

If he was sitting on his arse not winning a thing picking up his paycheck then you'd have a point, but he's never happy coming 2nd and when he does goes out and finds players who can improve the team and it's chances of winning.

He's happy because he wins and his board give him the freedom to buy the players he wants.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not really no, he's at a club who back his vision of success, the board back him when he wants to sign someone and why wouldn't they when he's delivered so much success.

If he was sitting on his arse not winning a thing picking up his paycheck then you'd have a point, but he's never happy coming 2nd and when he does goes out and finds players who can improve the team and it's chances of winning.

He sucked the glazers dick instead of sticking up for the fans who were protesting. Yes he is a winner but pissed off alot of fans who have not forgiven him or the club.

Not bothered about what he has won.

My point has nothing to do with his aims or success, i know what he has done.

Im not saying he is a bad manager, im saying not all fans love him as you think they do just because he wins. Not all fans think football is about winning.


If he was sitting on his arse not winning a thing picking up his paycheck then you'd have a point, but he's never happy coming 2nd and when he does goes out and finds players who can improve the team and it's chances of winning.

Nothing to do with my point. Never said he did any of this stuff, never said he was like that at all.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Trust me there are loads listen to any radio station call in and you will find a few. Its not him they like its what he has done for the club its diffrent.

He was happy to suck the glazers dick but maybe cause they pay him i guess.

so there's loads but if i listen to a radio station ill find a few?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

so there's loads but if i listen to a radio station ill find a few?

Well not all will ring the radio, you find some on forums etc. As the link NQ posted suggest. Im not saying they should want him out. Im saying its their Opinion if they do.

I agree he is the best manager of the last 20 years in the EPL. Like i guess if Manc fans want him out, then you know its for a good reason, which was my point.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

he's not the best manager in the last 20 years.

he's the best manager ever.

any man utd fan wanting him out deserves to be shot.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is there a problem with that?

I was answering the question:


More important question is.. would Fergie have stayed on his job being a puppet of the board happy to collect his paycheck, all the while not being able to buy/sell players he wants?

The answer to that question is very clearly yes, he would be prepared to do that and in fact that's exactly what he has done.

I personally don't think the original question was important at all. The more important question, I believe, is why some of our fans are suddenly passionate about backing Ferguson for doing exactly what they criticise Wenger so vehemently for? Granted, Ferguson has continued to bring in the trophies but he's still compromised many of his beliefs and he's significantly changed his transfer policies as a result of the arrival of the Glaziers. Without a Ronaldo who knows how poorly Utd would have fared over the last few transfer windows? That one sale has covered for an otherwise glaring lack of investment in the club.

I agree, there can't be many Utd fans who have such vitriol for their manager as there are Arsenal fans who despise Wenger. Is this simply a matter of trophies then? Is the whole, "Why doesn't he do the honourable thing and resign", argument just a heap of bullshit that applies only to Wenger but not to any other manager?

[GP]

any man utd fan deserves to be shot.

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

Not really no, he's at a club who back his vision of success, the board back him when he wants to sign someone and why wouldn't they when he's delivered so much success.

That's just nonsense. The board's financial backing has been lukewarm at best over recent years. They are far more concerned about shovelling money out of the club to pay back the loan they needed to buy-in in the first place. A disgrace in itself. At least Kroenke had the money. Take away the astounding amount paid when Utd had their own RvC moment when Ronaldo left and what do you see?

Don't be confused wither by the financial clout of Utd compared to Arsenal. We're only building our muscle, Utd have been bulked up for years all on the back of the great success achieved in earlier decades and then by Ferguson and the genuine backing he got from the previous board. It all sounds very similar if you ask me. Another set of vampires in to suck a club dry while the manager is left to keep the ship afloat.

And while the admiration for Ferguson is running so high on this Arsenal forum (and it's deserved) drop an email to the man himself and ask him what he genuinely thinks about Wenger. I think he might appreciate very well at least certain aspects of the job our own manager has been doing.

[Özim]

And while the admiration for Ferguson is running so high on this Arsenal forum (and it's deserved) drop an email to the man himself and ask him what he genuinely thinks about Wenger. I think he might appreciate very well at least certain aspects of the job our own manager has been doing.
7 years ago he thought he was a tw*t and hated him, now he's only got good things to say about him, work that out.

[fakeyank]

One of hundreds of similar articles you can find related to Ferguson's support for owners that are hated by the fans. Lot's of examples there about the dramatic decline in Utd's net spending so imported debt can be repaid, plus Ferguson's strange excuses in the transfer market.

I never mentioned SAF did not support the owners. Heck, he loves them.. he gets paid by them and more importantly, he gets to buy/sell players he wants. Even if he doesnt want to sell them. Ex: Ronaldo, he makes sure he get a bloody good deal out of it. And then with that very same money, re-invest it in the team!
Our manager on the other hand will beg the board to reduce the price of a player (Fabregas) so the player can fulfill his dream. And even when we get half decent money for a world class player, we do not even re-invest that money. You seriously cannot tell me that if SAF played under the same pressure, he'd still be sucking up to the Glazers.

I am sure there might have been instances where probably SAF was told by the board that signing a player was out of their league and he had to work within his boundaries. However if he were to be told 'NO' for every little transfer. Ex: 1 million extra quid for Schwarzer or 2 million for Alonso would not be available, he'd have told them fuck off and die OR more importantly, he would have quit and not tarnished his reputation for some greedy cocks.

[Niall_Quinn]

7 years ago he thought he was a tw*t and hated him, now he's only got good things to say about him, work that out.

You honestly believe it's as simple as that?

But you guys. As soon as one of the Wenger effigies is shown to be a fake you just move on to the next one.

[Özim]

That's just nonsense. The board's financial backing has been lukewarm at best over recent years. They are far more concerned about shovelling money out of the club to pay back the loan they needed to buy-in in the first place. A disgrace in itself. At least Kroenke had the money. Take away the astounding amount paid when Utd had their own RvC moment when Ronaldo left and what do you see?

Don't be confused wither by the financial clout of Utd compared to Arsenal. We're only building our muscle, Utd have been bulked up for years all on the back of the great success achieved in earlier decades and then by Ferguson and the genuine backing he got from the previous board. It all sounds very similar if you ask me. Another set of vampires in to suck a club dry while the manager is left to keep the ship afloat.
Luke warm?

Last summer: Robin van Persie (Arsenal, £24m), Shinji Kagawa (Dortmund, £17m), Nick Powell (Crewe, £4m), Alexander Buttner (Vitesse Arnhem, £4m)

The summer before: David De Gea (Atletico Madrid, £17.8m), Phil Jones (Blackburn, £16.5m), Ashley Young (Aston Villa, £16m).

That's not bad.

[Niall_Quinn]

I never mentioned SAF did not support the owners. Heck, he loves them.. he gets paid by them and more importantly, he gets to buy/sell players he wants. Even if he doesnt want to sell them. Ex: Ronaldo, he makes sure he get a bloody good deal out of it. And then with that very same money, re-invest it in the team!
Our manager on the other hand will beg the board to reduce the price of a player (Fabregas) so the player can fulfill his dream. And even when we get half decent money for a world class player, we do not even re-invest that money. You seriously cannot tell me that if SAF played under the same pressure, he'd still be sucking up to the Glazers.

I am sure there might have been instances where probably SAF was told by the board that signing a player was out of their league and he had to work within his boundaries. However if he were to be told 'NO' for every little transfer. Ex: 1 million extra quid for Schwarzer or 2 million for Alonso would not be available, he'd have told them fuck off and die OR more importantly, he would have quit and not tarnished his reputation for some greedy cocks.

Oh okay. Glad you have such a finely tuned grasp of what Ferguson would or wouldn't have done in various imaginary situations. And I agree, these imagined events certainly cast Wenger in a poor light.

[Özim]

You honestly believe it's as simple as that?

But you guys. As soon as one of the Wenger effigies is shown to be a fake you just move on to the next one.
Yes it is, since Wenger became a loser and no longer competition to Ferguson he's changed his view, he use to hate him and would always say all kinds of things to slate him.....in a way Ferguson having good things to say about him just shows how poor Wenger has become.

[Niall_Quinn]

Luke warm?

Last summer: Robin van Persie (Arsenal, £24m), Shinji Kagawa (Dortmund, £17m), Nick Powell (Crewe, £4m), Alexander Buttner (Vitesse Arnhem, £4m)

The summer before: David De Gea (Atletico Madrid, £17.8m), Phil Jones (Blackburn, £16.5m), Ashley Young (Aston Villa, £16m).

That's not bad.

Not bad compared to us. But a significant step down from the £30mill bracket they used to trade in and is now reserved for the chavs and city.

And Liverpool :haha:

[Özim]

Not bad compared to us. But a significant step down from the £30mill bracket they used to trade in and is now reserved for the chavs and city.

And Liverpool :haha:
Not really no, he can still go out and spend 30 million for the right player, he spent the best part of 50 million in the summer and 50 the summer before as well.

He's got money to spend and he's not scared to spend it, if the Glazers wanted to keep hold of everything they'd give him a few million to play around with, difference is they realise success on the pitch is beneficial to them and the club and fortunately have a manager who believes this too and doesn't pretend some mythical trophy is the definition of success.

I don't mind someone making money as long as what happens on the pitch also matters, I have a real problem with money being the only thing that matters however....which is what is happening at our club.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not really no, he can still go out and spend 30 million for the right player, he spent the best part of 50 million in the summer and 50 the summer before as well.

He's got money to spend and he's not scared to spend it, if the Glazers wanted to keep hold of everything they'd give him a few million to play around with, difference is they realise success on the pitch is beneficial to them and the club and fortunately have a manager who believes this too and doesn't pretend some mythical trophy is the definition of success.

So Fergie can't find the top top top quality he needs? That's why he doesn't spend the big money? It's nice to see someone who has respect for the Glaziers and their vision for football at least. You won't find the same sentiment in Manchester.

[Özim]

So Fergie can't find the top top top quality he needs? That's why he doesn't spend the big money? It's nice to see someone who has respect for the Glaziers and their vision for football at least. You won't find the same sentiment in Manchester.
RVP is he not top quality then?

I think a lot of the fans who had concerns initially are now seeing that it's not as bad as they first thought and that the club still spend money even if they do now have debt.....which they are reducing over time.

Man U is a massive club and despite the debt they have it's pretty clear they are able to cope with those debts much better than some expected and much better than most without compromising the team.

[Niall_Quinn]

RVP is he not top quality then?

I think a lot of the fans who had concerns initially are now seeing that it's not as bad as they first thought and that the club still spend money even if they do now have debt.....which they are reducing over time.

Man U is a massive club and despite the debt they have it's pretty clear they are able to cope with those debts much better than some expected and much better than most without compromising the team.

They got him cheap, of course he's top quality. Ferguson must have been laughing his bollocks off.

Have you watched Utd's defence and midfield of late? Is that the same quality as previous years or have they dropped a level? The answer is obvious but not conducive to bashing Wenger so I get your point. So if we're finally getting behind the Glazier's plan for Utd it might not be too big a leap to get behind our own board and their misunderstood vision for the future, right?

Utd good, Wenger bad. Ferguson's compromises and lip service good, Wenger a sell-out. But wouldn't it be more convincing if you slagged a team you don't even support? It would add credibility to the anti-Wenger stuff because your argument might be viewed as balanced.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You honestly believe it's as simple as that?

But you guys. As soon as one of the Wenger effigies is shown to be a fake you just move on to the next one.

Spot on, not sure why People compare Arsena to Man ud, Wenger to Ferguson anyway. Its dumb. 2 diffrent clubs who are run their own ways, with 2 diffrent managers who dod things their own ways. Its silly. Only thing thats the same, is they have 2 Owners whoare both in it for themselves.

Even before Wenger we were run this way and The mancs were run that way its the way it is.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes it is, since Wenger became a loser and no longer competition to Ferguson he's changed his view, he use to hate him and would always say all kinds of things to slate him.....in a way Ferguson having good things to say about him just shows how poor Wenger has become.

Fergie has never hated him. never. they'e always been rivals on the pitch. Fergie has always said they share a drink together even in the days of Wenger winning stuff. Fergie has respect for AW and what he has done.


Not really no, he can still go out and spend 30 million for the right player, he spent the best part of 50 million in the summer and 50 the summer before as well.

He's got money to spend and he's not scared to spend it, if the Glazers wanted to keep hold of everything they'd give him a few million to play around with, difference is they realise success on the pitch is beneficial to them and the club and fortunately have a manager who believes this too and doesn't pretend some mythical trophy is the definition of success.

I don't mind someone making money as long as what happens on the pitch also matters, I have a real problem with money being the only thing that matters however....which is what is happening at our club.

Well he has not brought a good midfilder and a defender his club needed, which is one of the criticism he gets from his own fans. Talking to a couple of manc fans the other day. they said to me the midfield is poor and they could not understand why a couple of quality midfilders were brought in. So i said Fergie is a smart man who can see this, problem is, he had to choose between buying a fantastic stiker and taking a chance in the midfield or vice versa. He don't have the money for both like he used to.

And Utd don't have money, thats a well known fact, thats why they have not spent alot in the last few years and thats why their sqaud has been weak for a few years now.

Fergie knows he can't chuck 50 mill on a player like City and chavs can, his board won't give him that type of money for one player.

Don't be fooled by thinking the Glazers are ambitious or they care about that club, simply they don't. Only thing that goes for them is Fergie is a good manager. Had they had a moyes etc there, they be worse off.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Luke warm?

Last summer: Robin van Persie (Arsenal, £24m), Shinji Kagawa (Dortmund, £17m), Nick Powell (Crewe, £4m), Alexander Buttner (Vitesse Arnhem, £4m)

The summer before: David De Gea (Atletico Madrid, £17.8m), Phil Jones (Blackburn, £16.5m), Ashley Young (Aston Villa, £16m).

That's not bad.

Of course that is luke warm to what Fergie is used to. Not really much quality there. Lets be honest. Lets remember this is not spending big, its the norm going rate for players these days £15 mill is.

[Globalgunner]

Spot on, not sure why People compare Arsena to Man ud, Wenger to Ferguson anyway. Its dumb. 2 diffrent clubs who are run their own ways, with 2 diffrent managers who dod things their own ways. Its silly. Only thing thats the same, is they have 2 Owners whoare both in it for themselves.

Even before Wenger we were run this way and The mancs were run that way its the way it is.

Weird how you seek to change the subject when the reasons for the comparisons are obvious. They are managers in the same league who USED to challenge for the same competitions. All you do with your logical foxtrotting is prove the point of Wenger detractors. YES the clubs are run differently, One is set up to win things and the other is.......What is the reason for Arsenal FC these days anyway........ Oh yes...Its to keep Monsieur Wenger happy.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

he's not the best manager in the last 20 years.

he's the best manager ever.

any man utd fan wanting him out deserves to be shot.

He might be their best manager ever, but id not say he is the best manager ever.

[Marc Overmars]

He might be their best manager ever, but id not say he is the best manager ever.

I would say he is, but then I don't know how the discussion has moved onto this. Match threads are getting weirder.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Weird how you seek to change the subject when the reasons for the comparisons are obvious. They are managers in the same league who USED to challenge for the same competitions. All you do with your logical foxtrotting is prove the point of Wenger detractors. YES the clubs are run differently, One is set up to win things and the other is.......What is the reason for Arsenal FC these days anyway........ Oh yes...Its to keep Monsieur Wenger happy.

I've never compare the 2 or i have never said Wenger was better then Fergie, never ever once said that. All i said it was dumb to compare clubs and if you read i said they have been run diffrent before Wenger came and when he was winning. I have not said anything about them not competeing in the same league.

Im saying i don't see the point, we are not run like them and we never will be even when Wenger goes.

I never compared us to them even when we were challenging for silverware, maybe thats just me.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I would say he is, but then I don't know how the discussion has moved onto this. Match threads are getting weirder.

Seems that way.

[server too busy!]

Yeah it's a misleading article. The Stadium naming rights aren't worth much on their own, so it should have us at £30m/season and 2nd on the list.

So as things stand in 5 years time we would have received all the £150m and be able to renegotiate again for a shirt sponsorship to receive a similar amount?

[GP]

So as things stand in 5 years time we would have received all the £150m and be able to renegotiate again for a shirt sponsorship to receive a similar amount?

I suppose so. As long as someone is willing to pay it.

[Globalgunner]

I've never compare the 2 or i have never said Wenger was better then Fergie, never ever once said that. All i said it was dumb to compare clubs and if you read i said they have been run diffrent before Wenger came and when he was winning. I have not said anything about them not competeing in the same league.

Im saying i don't see the point, we are not run like them and we never will be even when Wenger goes.

I never compared us to them even when we were challenging for silverware, maybe thats just me.

You`re doing the same thing all over again. Vehemently rejecting things that nobody said. No one here accused you of saying Wenger is better than Fergie. Why is it dumb to compare clubs. OK, i get it. We are not really in the same league and never were,,,,that seems to be your argument. Ok accepted. What I am saying is that it seems we are no longer competing in that psuedo league below that of ManU. We are a once proud club existing to stay in the top 10. Forgive some of us for lamenting that fact.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

He might be their best manager ever, but id not say he is the best manager ever.

name me 1 other manager who has been more successful in a regular, long lasting fashion?

[Japan Shaking All Over]

TBH there are not many that stand in his way. . .SAF has been given money when he wanted it but nothing like the amounts that the Chavs and Citeh have been given.

He has been successful in ever era he has managed in, the latest being the era of money shitters and player whores

[GP]

name me 1 other manager who has been more successful in a regular, long lasting fashion?

Some might say beetroot face just isn't brave enough to step outside of his comfort zone...

:popcorn:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

i think fighting off various waves of investment and different teams over the past 30 years offsets that argument.

he saw off liverpool, us, chelsea and will do the same with city.

you can point to cloughy but he never had the level of competition fergie has faced. nor did he have to deal with player egos, agents, sheikhs and the commercialisation of the modern game.

[Marc Overmars]

Some might say beetroot face just isn't brave enough to step outside of his comfort zone...

:popcorn:

Don't forget he's had success elsewhere already, broke the Old Firm strangehold on the title and even won the Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen.

[GP]

Don't forget he's had success elsewhere already, broke the Old Firm strangehold on the title and even won the Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen.

500 years ago

[Özim]

Don't forget he's had success elsewhere already, broke the Old Firm strangehold on the title and even won the Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen.
He's pretty much proven his ability in every way, he's built winning team after winning team and challenged the richer teams like Chelsea successfully as well.

You'd have to be an idiot to question him based on what he's achieved and his consistent success.

[Marc Overmars]

500 years ago

Oh.

[Joker]

If we're talking about staying in your comfort zone, that same accusation can be more appropriately leveled at Wenger. He's got a great job at Arsenal, receiving an extremely good salary with very little pressure in terms of trying to lift silverware. The Board are willing to accept his eccentricities and his outdated philosophies, because they are very profitable, even if it holds us back in terms of success on the pitch. At any other club he would have faced serious questions by now.

[Özim]

They got him cheap, of course he's top quality. Ferguson must have been laughing his bollocks off.

Have you watched Utd's defence and midfield of late? Is that the same quality as previous years or have they dropped a level? The answer is obvious but not conducive to bashing Wenger so I get your point. So if we're finally getting behind the Glazier's plan for Utd it might not be too big a leap to get behind our own board and their misunderstood vision for the future, right?

Utd good, Wenger bad. Ferguson's compromises and lip service good, Wenger a sell-out. But wouldn't it be more convincing if you slagged a team you don't even support? It would add credibility to the anti-Wenger stuff because your argument might be viewed as balanced.
In relative terms yes, but they still paid 24 million which isn't pocket change by any stretch of the imagination, so you argument really falls down there.

As for the quality of their team, sure it's not as good as before (but let's face it some of his previous teams were really top notch), but he's still gone out and spent 20 million on players, regardless of whether they are as good as before he's had the money and spent it.

I'm not getting behind the Glazers at all, I don't much care about what they get up to, my point was simply that's it's not working out quite as badly as was first envisaged, the manager still has money, the club is still successful and the debt is being reduced, at least the fans are seeing success on the pitch it's not just a one way ticket on the money train.

Wenger is a sell out yes and I'll tell you why, whilst Ferguson continues to strive for success and doesn't settle for 2nd place, Wenger goes out and picks up his pay checks and tells everyone 4th place is amazing and like a trophy, he's proud of his achievement despite not winning a thing in 7 years (he's insinuated many times he's very happy with his performance). Ferguson hasn't changed, winning is everything to him and you'll never hear him being happy with 4th place happy to see other teams picking up all the silverware, Wenger on the other hand now makes excuses for his failure to win and praises non achievements as if we've hit the jackpot and won the CL or PL.

Maybe you should look at the facts, it amazes me you concentrate most of your energy on the board when the manager makes schoolboy errors on the pitch week in week out, for some reason though, that's OK, as is settling for 4th place whilst picking up 7 million (more than any other manager).

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm concentrating my efforts on the original argument that was made - Ferguson wouldn't dance to the tune of his shareholders. Given the various discussion have now diverged into questions of whether Ferguson is the best manager or not (which had nothing to do with the original argument) I'm assuming the answer must be yes, Ferguson does indeed dance just like Wenger.

I agree we have problems on the pitch and the manager has to take responsibility for those. But I'd like to get the fantasy accusations out of the way too, because that will make it easier to focus on the real issues.

[Niall_Quinn]

If we're talking about staying in your comfort zone, that same accusation can be more appropriately leveled at Wenger. He's got a great job at Arsenal, receiving an extremely good salary with very little pressure in terms of trying to lift silverware. The Board are willing to accept his eccentricities and his outdated philosophies, because they are very profitable, even if it holds us back in terms of success on the pitch. At any other club he would have faced serious questions by now.

Indeed. Wenger passed up the tricky proposition of Madrid's money pit so he could take the easy option at an Arsenal being rebuilt from the ground up. Ferguson could have left too when the Glaziers slimed in. These two men seem to have something in common on the surface at least. But we know with Fergie it will be loyalty and desire for the challenge, with Wenger of course it will be a hatred of Arsenal and a desperate desire to destroy the club while stealing all the money.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You`re doing the same thing all over again. Vehemently rejecting things that nobody said. No one here accused you of saying Wenger is better than Fergie. Why is it dumb to compare clubs. OK, i get it. We are not really in the same league and never were,,,,that seems to be your argument. Ok accepted. What I am saying is that it seems we are no longer competing in that psuedo league below that of ManU. We are a once proud club existing to stay in the top 10. Forgive some of us for lamenting that fact.

Lets just agree to disagree.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

In relative terms yes, but they still paid 24 million which isn't pocket change by any stretch of the imagination, so you argument really falls down there.

As for the quality of their team, sure it's not as good as before (but let's face it some of his previous teams were really top notch), but he's still gone out and spent 20 million on players, regardless of whether they are as good as before he's had the money and spent it.

I'm not getting behind the Glazers at all, I don't much care about what they get up to, my point was simply that's it's not working out quite as badly as was first envisaged, the manager still has money, the club is still successful and the debt is being reduced, at least the fans are seeing success on the pitch it's not just a one way ticket on the money train.

Wenger is a sell out yes and I'll tell you why, whilst Ferguson continues to strive for success and doesn't settle for 2nd place, Wenger goes out and picks up his pay checks and tells everyone 4th place is amazing and like a trophy, he's proud of his achievement despite not winning a thing in 7 years (he's insinuated many times he's very happy with his performance). Ferguson hasn't changed, winning is everything to him and you'll never hear him being happy with 4th place happy to see other teams picking up all the silverware, Wenger on the other hand now makes excuses for his failure to win and praises non achievements as if we've hit the jackpot and won the CL or PL.

Maybe you should look at the facts, it amazes me you concentrate most of your energy on the board when the manager makes schoolboy errors on the pitch week in week out, for some reason though, that's OK, as is settling for 4th place whilst picking up 7 million (more than any other manager).

So what he picks up 7 mill who really cares.

[Özim]

So what he picks up 7 mill who really cares.
Everyone does when he delivers nothing on the pitch, if he was being successful noone would give a sh*t...but the fact he's picked up nothing in 7 years makes this very relevant.

In simple terms, to the fans he's not worth the money.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Everyone does when he delivers nothing on the pitch, if he was being successful noone would give a sh*t...but the fact he's picked up nothing in 7 years makes this very relevant.

In simple terms, to the fans he's not worth the money.

Who is everyone. not me don't give a shit what money he is on. They pay him that good luck to him, only a fool would turn that down.

He could get 1 million id still want him gone.


In simple terms, to the fans he's not worth the money.

Funny that the most importamt people who decided that think diffrent.

[Özim]

I'm concentrating my efforts on the original argument that was made - Ferguson wouldn't dance to the tune of his shareholders. Given the various discussion have now diverged into questions of whether Ferguson is the best manager or not (which had nothing to do with the original argument) I'm assuming the answer must be yes, Ferguson does indeed dance just like Wenger.

I agree we have problems on the pitch and the manager has to take responsibility for those. But I'd like to get the fantasy accusations out of the way too, because that will make it easier to focus on the real issues.
I don't totally agree that he dances to the tune of the shareholders. Ferguson has always been a winner and has always done everything to make his sides successful, what he's concerned about is being able to keep winning, by all intents and purposes this has continued to happen under the Glazers so I don't see why he would have a problem with them?

If he suddenly couldn't compete, couldn't sign the players he wanted and was winning anything then you might have a point. For me that's the big difference, little has changed for Ferguson, he won before they arrived and has continued to do so and has been able to spend money, Wenger hasn't won in years and yet is still happy to sit there praising our non-achievements....when did winning become secondary to money to him?

[Özim]

Who is everyone. not me don't give a shit what money he is on. They pay him that good luck to him, only a fool would turn that down.

He could get 1 million id still want him gone.



Funny that the most importamt people who decided that think diffrent.
The fans, I think they care that their manager who is delivering nothing and is proving inept is getting paid huge amounts. I think the fact he's earning huge amounts really rubs it into people's faces, it just shows he's very much part of this money issue we have.

Of course they think differently, they're making a shedload out of it, why wouldn't they? I tell you what though, in most businesses if large parts of the client base aren't happy, changes are made and they certainly don't dare to blame the customers, if they did they'd soon find they had no customers left.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The fans, I think they care that their manager who is delivering nothing and is proving inept is getting paid huge amounts. I think the fact he's earning huge amounts really rubs it into people's faces, it just shows he's very much part of this money issue we have.

Of course they think differently, they're making a shedload out of it, why wouldn't they? I tell you what though, in most businesses if large parts of the client base aren't happy, changes are made and they certainly don't dare to blame the customers, if they did they'd soon find they had no customers left.

Fair enough, personally it don't bother me, i want him out like you and unlike Ollie he has no chances left with im me. Id want him out if he was earning less too.

IMO its time for him to go, he has done his bit, now we say thanks for the memories. I don't disagree with you, when you say he is not the man he used to be.

[fakeyank]

Oh okay. Glad you have such a finely tuned grasp of what Ferguson would or wouldn't have done in various imaginary situations. And I agree, these imagined events certainly cast Wenger in a poor light.

I am basing it off what most top managers would do. SAF being the only direct person I can compare to in the PL. These assumptions are very similar to the assumptions you make about the workings of the board and Stan. Where are you basing your 'facts' or 'fats' (as Rafa says) from? Your imaginary life or just your hatred for anybody who is rich?

And what part of my post was imaginary about SAF being able to spend 25 million quid on a 29 year old, Wenger not being able to spend a couple of million extra quid on players we needed or the fact that SAF re-invested the Ronaldo money?

[Niall_Quinn]

I am basing it off what most top managers would do. SAF being the only direct person I can compare to in the PL. These assumptions are very similar to the assumptions you make about the workings of the board and Stan. Where are you basing your 'facts' or 'fats' (as Rafa says) from? Your imaginary life or just your hatred for anybody who is rich?

And what part of my post was imaginary about SAF being able to spend 25 million quid on a 29 year old, Wenger not being able to spend a couple of million extra quid on players we needed or the fact that SAF re-invested the Ronaldo money?

I'm basing my facts on facts, or £500million and a bloodbath in the boardroom if you want the details. This has nothing to do with people being rich, in fact I wouldn't mind being rich myself. Another example of your assumptions running riot.

I just don't place much stock in "Ferguson would do this or Ferguson would think that" theorising when that theory is then cast as a factually based conclusion and used to beat Wenger. I'm not saying you can't do it, that's up to you. All I'm saying is I don't place any credence in it.

[fakeyank]

I'm basing my facts on facts, or £500million and a bloodbath in the boardroom if you want the details.

Yes, I'd like to see details of where you have information of AW's hands being tied by the board in terms of signing players. Links? Videos? And what is the bloodbath you are talking about? Are you referring to the fight between Usmanov and Kroenke to takeover Arsenal? If that is what you are inferring, show how any of that has affected AW's ability to run this club footballistically? Again.. links or valid quotes from AW or the board members would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Arsenal midfielder Mikel Arteta has defended manager Arsene Wenger in the wake of fan criticism at the weekend.

Wenger withdrew striker Olivier Giroud for midfielder Francis Coquelin during Saturday's goalless draw at Aston Villa, sparking chants of 'You don't know what you're doing' from the visiting fans.

Arteta respects the right of supporters to voice their frustrations but insists Wenger has his reasons for every decision he makes.

"They can say whatever they want," Arteta told Sky Sports News.

"If they feel that way it has to be respected. Even when they say something to one of us."I think he has got experience and he has been here for 15 years. He is someone who knows the club better than anyone.

"He knows the players really well and he knows what he can get from each of us.

"So when he puts the team out, obviously it's because he wants to win it and he's picked the best team - that day - to win that game.

"He is always trying to do the best, you know. And some of the decisions he takes are very unpopular. But if he takes them it's because he's got a reason.

"If he does it once then maybe it's a mistake but if he does it four or five times then there is a reason why and he'll explain that better than anyone."

However, the focus of the French coach remains unmoved.

"My job is to give full commitment to this club, with integrity. That's what I always do without expecting any return," Wenger said.

"I don't want to comment on that [fans]. I just make sure that I do my job properly - that's what I do."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/8288805/Mikel-Arteta-has-defended-Arsene-Wenger-after-criticism-from-Arsenal-fans

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Yes, I'd like to see details of where you have information of AW's hands being tied by the board in terms of signing players. Links? Videos? And what is the bloodbath you are talking about? Are you referring to the fight between Usmanov and Kroenke to takeover Arsenal? If that is what you are inferring, show how any of that has affected AW's ability to run this club footballistically? Again.. links or valid quotes from AW or the board members would be appreciated. Thanks!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fTeZPMKF7Os/UH1OvuDB2kI/AAAAAAAAOH8/dWyJNEhFNcg/s1600/KaBoom.gif

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, I'd like to see details of where you have information of AW's hands being tied by the board in terms of signing players. Links? Videos? And what is the bloodbath you are talking about? Are you referring to the fight between Usmanov and Kroenke to takeover Arsenal? If that is what you are inferring, show how any of that has affected AW's ability to run this club footballistically? Again.. links or valid quotes from AW or the board members would be appreciated. Thanks!

No, I was referring to the directors and shareholders who were pushed out during the disposal of the club to Kroenke. Obviously these events occurred.

Why are you changing the subject? You speculated that Ferguson would not dance in the way you accuse Wenger of dancing. I showed you his dance routine. Now you want video evidence of Wenger having his hands tied by the board. Well of course the board doesn't video Wenger being tied up hence the ongoing debate amongst the fans as to where the money might be and why it hasn't been spent.

On the one side I base my arguments on the fact Kroenke has invested nothing in the club, all his expenditure went to the shareholders. Is this in dispute? I base my arguments on the fact we have been making profits through players sales thereby increasing a bottom line that benefits most those whose earnings are not capped by a declared salary. An argument that tallies precisely with the whole concept of a financial investment - less money in than the money taken out.

Contrary to that argument runs the idea Wenger, for whatever reason, is responsible for limiting the club's expenditure and enriching third parties. I say idea because there's no way of knowing Wenger's genuine agenda as it's his job to remain within the confines set by those who own the club, unless Arsenal is the unique exception to this rule. If indeed the club is an exception then another assumption has to be made, that Kroenke would invest half a billion and then relinquish control. Watching his determination to exclude a 30% shareholder from proceedings it would seem odd for him to cede authority to a zero percent shareholder. Even if this strange argument represents the reality behind the scenes, there are no publicly available facts to confirm it. Which is why I mention another fact, the fact you deal is supposition and speculation and not much else.

So does Wenger have his hands tied? Not that this question has anything to do with the original argument. We don't know for sure but the facts strongly suggest this is the case. To suppose otherwise would be to suggest Wenger wants to see his top players leaving, wants to be uncompetitive, wants to continue falling further behind the big players. This is absurd, but so are many of the charges raised against Wenger. But there's a finer distinction. Does he have his hands tied willingly or unwillingly? That would be the better question. Maybe he believes the board's agenda can bear fruit. So maybe he's a willing participant. The point is, we're dealing in speculation here - not facts. And even then there's very little weight given to another important fact when people queue to heap accusations on Wenger. He's an employee. It's surprising how often this needs to be mentioned. He is not at liberty to simply speak his mind on the inner workings of the club. Which employee is at liberty to do that?

So I'll say it again. I'm dealing in what has happened and what can be confirmed. You are speculating. And when one of your speculations gets knocked over you breeze onto the next one. Which means in the end you will prevail because I'm limited to dealing with what we know whilst you can just keep conjuring fresh objections out of thin air.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fTeZPMKF7Os/UH1OvuDB2kI/AAAAAAAAOH8/dWyJNEhFNcg/s1600/KaBoom.gif

It's a bit like one of those suicide bombers who blows himself up prematurely.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

It's a bit like one of those suicide bombers who blows himself up prematurely.

right that's enough. ach's cousin might have been controversial but he was a good guy.

[LDG]

No, I was referring to the directors and shareholders who were pushed out during the disposal of the club to Kroenke. Obviously these events occurred.

Why are you changing the subject? You speculated that Ferguson would not dance in the way you accuse Wenger of dancing. I showed you his dance routine. Now you want video evidence of Wenger having his hands tied by the board. Well of course the board doesn't video Wenger being tied up hence the ongoing debate amongst the fans as to where the money might be and why it hasn't been spent.

On the one side I base my arguments on the fact Kroenke has invested nothing in the club, all his expenditure went to the shareholders. Is this in dispute? I base my arguments on the fact we have been making profits through players sales thereby increasing a bottom line that benefits most those whose earnings are not capped by a declared salary. An argument that tallies precisely with the whole concept of a financial investment - less money in than the money taken out.

Contrary to that argument runs the idea Wenger, for whatever reason, is responsible for limiting the club's expenditure and enriching third parties. I say idea because there's no way of knowing Wenger's genuine agenda as it's his job to remain within the confines set by those who own the club, unless Arsenal is the unique exception to this rule. If indeed the club is an exception then another assumption has to be made, that Kroenke would invest half a billion and then relinquish control. Watching his determination to exclude a 30% shareholder from proceedings it would seem odd for him to cede authority to a zero percent shareholder. Even if this strange argument represents the reality behind the scenes, there are no publicly available facts to confirm it. Which is why I mention another fact, the fact you deal is supposition and speculation and not much else.

So does Wenger have his hands tied? Not that this question has anything to do with the original argument. We don't know for sure but the facts strongly suggest this is the case. To suppose otherwise would be to suggest Wenger wants to see his top players leaving, wants to be uncompetitive, wants to continue falling further behind the big players. This is absurd, but so are many of the charges raised against Wenger. But there's a finer distinction. Does he have his hands tied willingly or unwillingly? That would be the better question. Maybe he believes the board's agenda can bear fruit. So maybe he's a willing participant. The point is, we're dealing in speculation here - not facts. And even then there's very little weight given to another important fact when people queue to heap accusations on Wenger. He's an employee. It's surprising how often this needs to be mentioned. He is not at liberty to simply speak his mind on the inner workings of the club. Which employee is at liberty to do that?

So I'll say it again. I'm dealing in what has happened and what can be confirmed. You are speculating. And when one of your speculations gets knocked over you breeze onto the next one. Which means in the end you will prevail because I'm limited to dealing with what we know whilst you can just keep conjuring fresh objections out of thin air.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fTeZPMKF7Os/UH1OvuDB2kI/AAAAAAAAOH8/dWyJNEhFNcg/s1600/KaBoom.gif

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wow this thread has gone way of course :haha:

GW match Threads :bow: , best there is, best there was and the best there ever will be.

[Özim]

Why are you changing the subject? You speculated that Ferguson would not dance in the way you accuse Wenger of dancing. I showed you his dance routine. Now you want video evidence of Wenger having his hands tied by the board. Well of course the board doesn't video Wenger being tied up hence the ongoing debate amongst the fans as to where the money might be and why it hasn't been spent.
Like I said in my post earlier, Ferguson is getting what he wants, he's achieving success, getting money to spend, the Glazers aren't comprimising his methods...so why exactly would he have a problem with that?

Wenger is somewhat different, he's not winning anything but still happy....whereas Ferguson's stategy of being successful has remained the same during the years he's managed, Wenger's has changed, why would a manager who was once upon a time winning suddenly be happy with getting 4th place every season......could it be due to the remuneration he's getting?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

the

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fTeZPMKF7Os/UH1OvuDB2kI/AAAAAAAAOH8/dWyJNEhFNcg/s1600/KaBoom.gif

[LDG]

:haha:

[fakeyank]

No, I was referring to the directors and shareholders who were pushed out during the disposal of the club to Kroenke. Obviously these events occurred.

Why are you changing the subject? You speculated that Ferguson would not dance in the way you accuse Wenger of dancing. I showed you his dance routine. Now you want video evidence of Wenger having his hands tied by the board. Well of course the board doesn't video Wenger being tied up hence the ongoing debate amongst the fans as to where the money might be and why it hasn't been spent.

On the one side I base my arguments on the fact Kroenke has invested nothing in the club, all his expenditure went to the shareholders. Is this in dispute? I base my arguments on the fact we have been making profits through players sales thereby increasing a bottom line that benefits most those whose earnings are not capped by a declared salary. An argument that tallies precisely with the whole concept of a financial investment - less money in than the money taken out.

Contrary to that argument runs the idea Wenger, for whatever reason, is responsible for limiting the club's expenditure and enriching third parties. I say idea because there's no way of knowing Wenger's genuine agenda as it's his job to remain within the confines set by those who own the club, unless Arsenal is the unique exception to this rule. If indeed the club is an exception then another assumption has to be made, that Kroenke would invest half a billion and then relinquish control. Watching his determination to exclude a 30% shareholder from proceedings it would seem odd for him to cede authority to a zero percent shareholder. Even if this strange argument represents the reality behind the scenes, there are no publicly available facts to confirm it. Which is why I mention another fact, the fact you deal is supposition and speculation and not much else.

So does Wenger have his hands tied? Not that this question has anything to do with the original argument. We don't know for sure but the facts strongly suggest this is the case. To suppose otherwise would be to suggest Wenger wants to see his top players leaving, wants to be uncompetitive, wants to continue falling further behind the big players. This is absurd, but so are many of the charges raised against Wenger. But there's a finer distinction. Does he have his hands tied willingly or unwillingly? That would be the better question. Maybe he believes the board's agenda can bear fruit. So maybe he's a willing participant. The point is, we're dealing in speculation here - not facts. And even then there's very little weight given to another important fact when people queue to heap accusations on Wenger. He's an employee. It's surprising how often this needs to be mentioned. He is not at liberty to simply speak his mind on the inner workings of the club. Which employee is at liberty to do that?

So I'll say it again. I'm dealing in what has happened and what can be confirmed. You are speculating. And when one of your speculations gets knocked over you breeze onto the next one. Which means in the end you will prevail because I'm limited to dealing with what we know whilst you can just keep conjuring fresh objections out of thin air.

Yes, I am speculating that SAF will not be a puppet like AW if he is not given the resources. This speculation comes from strong evidence. Much like how you call an election based on facts or know about the area. What dance routine you talking about? You showed that he backs the owners just like Wenger.. why wouldnt SAF back the owners? He gets what he wants from the owners in terms of doing his job on the pitch... based on what you say, AW isnt being backed by the owners on the football pitch!

So what exactly is your expectation from Stan? And why should he put in his personal money in player transfers when its clearly not needed? We all know he is not a die hard Arsenal fan. He bought a business, a sound financial business which generates a lot of income by itself. There is no evidence that he has held that income from AW and not allowed AW to invest in the team. It has repeatedly been said by Stan, PHW and Gazidis that AW will have funds that he needs to buy good players. So what is your problem with the board exactly?

And you can blame Stan all you want but he has only been a major player at AFC since the beginning of last season. Our shower of shite under Wenger has been going on longer than that. You think a highly successful businessman like Stan or millionaires like PHW wont sanction an extra 1 million quid for Shwarzer or Alonso? These guys are rich because they have taken calculated risks in their businesses. You are telling me they are happy they did not spend 2 million quid when that couldve been the difference between winning the league v/s not winning the league. Mind you, winning the league would mean more money from shirt sales, new glory hunting fans etc. You think these guys are penny pinching 10-15 million quid off of AW's transfer budget when that extra 10-15 million dollar could mean a successful season.. which in turn gives us a strong hand negotiating better contracts. If we had won the league in the last 2-3 years, the deal from Emirates couldve been much more than 150 million.

As for player sales, all player sales before being made final are run through AW... FACT! In fact AW has personally gone to the board to reduce the price on a player so the player can leave (Fabregas)... FACT! So where again in this scenario are the board in the wrong?


I say idea because there's no way of knowing Wenger's genuine agenda as it's his job to remain within the confines set by those who own the club, unless Arsenal is the unique exception to this rule.
This is true! Here, I expect my manager who is the only manager in PL history to go unbeaten in a whole season to have more ambition and most importantly have a feel for what the clubs fans expect of him and the team. Our manager, on the other hand is more bothered about 4th place trophy than actually winning something!

And no, AW does not want his best players leaving. BUT his best players want to leave him. Every top player who have left us has talked about bringing in top players in the transfer window to be more competitive. AW, being the all controlling man at AFC regarding football does not like their opinion and shows them the door. This is a FACT.. look at what RVP, Nasri, Adebayor, Gallas, Henry have said about bringing in players to the club.

Question is.. why is Wenger being such a douche? Well Wenger has this dream of winning the league with youngsters, playing HIS style of football, believing in HIS bullshit philosophy. The only problem is that he has failed and he is a stubborn prick who is going back to the 'tried and failed' formula again and again despite the fact that football has moved on. He is living in 1998 while we are 14 years ahead!


He is not at liberty to simply speak his mind on the inner workings of the club. Which employee is at liberty to do that?

No employee is.. but AW is not just a normal employee at Arsenal. He is a powerful man if he can tell the 'money hungry' board to take less money for a player, design the dressing rooms and hire his own boss! That brings us to the point.. why is he wasting his legacy at a club where he gets no support footballistically? He can surely secure a nice job at a club where he will both get the money he gets and also resources to be a winner... its just common sense that most normal men would quit their crappy jobs with good pay to an awesome job with good pay. I hope this is not a speculation as well... coz most ppl usually do that. FACT!

Crap job + good salary < awesome job + good salary

[AKBapologist]

"So what's your problem with the board already"
:haha:

What a muppet.

Any other top four club would have sacked Wenger by now for lack of ambition alone and you wondering why people think the board and owner are fucking this club.

sent from a fone

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

You seem to define a fact as the capitalisation of the word FACT after any opinion, half truth or distortion.


That brings us to the point..

The new point you mean? Then you do the opinion... FACT thing again.

Did you read the article I used in response to your original post? There's a string of reversals there from Ferguson. This is the dance I'm talking about. I don't even criticise him for it, it's just a fact of life for an employee. One minute you have one set of instructions, the next you have another. You also have a duty to represent your company favourably in public so you dance. The actual point being, it's a poor demonstration to hold Ferguson up as the opposite to Wenger in terms of their relationships with their respective bosses.

And you are still suggesting Wenger deliberately makes a profit in the transfer window against the wishes of the board. I'm not saying that can't be true, I'm just saying it is ludicrous. Who stands to benefit from these profits? Wenger or the impotent and oppressed Kroenke? We don't know for sure, we can only apply logic and common sense and force 2+2 to equal 4.

My expectation for Stan is for him to keep things pretty much as they are, raise the financial potential of the club and then sell to Usmanov banking around a 200mill profit in the process. What are your expectations? The risk you describe is the purchase of a club with unrealised massive commercial potential mainly through heavily undervalued sponsorship and merchandising deals. A club stalked by one of the world's richest men who has already shown a willingness to pay over the odds for Arsenal shares. A smart investment, not necessarily a risky one though. I also doubt the one year involvement routine can survive for much longer as a valid apology. It's not as if the guy spotted Arsenal in a shop window while passing through and made an impulse purchase. You think investments of this scale are hammered out over the weekend? This is what I mean, you are being totally unrealistic and then stamping the word FACT after each assumption.

Even on football related matters you conclude Wenger is more bothered about finishing 4th than winning something. In all honesty, how likely is that to be the case? Why would any manager aim for a lower placing that he thought was otherwise achievable? You could say Wenger lacks ambition by not striving for more but to say he prefers less isn't a convincing argument at all.

Why is Wenger the "prick" such a "douche"? You see what you are doing here? You are posing your argument in the form of a tantrum. And reaching for anything to throw at the guy. Which is foolish because there's enough valid ammunition to sling without making shit up and you wouldn't even have to get hot and bothered.

[fakeyank]

You seem to define a fact as the capitalisation of the word FACT after any opinion, half truth or distortion.



The new point you mean? Then you do the opinion... FACT thing again.

Did you read the article I used in response to your original post? There's a string of reversals there from Ferguson. This is the dance I'm talking about. I don't even criticise him for it, it's just a fact of life for an employee. One minute you have one set of instructions, the next you have another. You also have a duty to represent your company favourably in public so you dance. The actual point being, it's a poor demonstration to hold Ferguson up as the opposite to Wenger in terms of their relationships with their respective bosses.

And you are still suggesting Wenger deliberately makes a profit in the transfer window against the wishes of the board. I'm not saying that can't be true, I'm just saying it is ludicrous. Who stands to benefit from these profits? Wenger or the impotent and oppressed Kroenke? We don't know for sure, we can only apply logic and common sense and force 2+2 to equal 4.

My expectation for Stan is for him to keep things pretty much as they are, raise the financial potential of the club and then sell to Usmanov banking around a 200mill profit in the process. What are your expectations? The risk you describe is the purchase of a club with unrealised massive commercial potential mainly through heavily undervalued sponsorship and merchandising deals. A club stalked by one of the world's richest men who has already shown a willingness to pay over the odds for Arsenal shares. A smart investment, not necessarily a risky one though. I also doubt the one year involvement routine can survive for much longer as a valid apology. It's not as if the guy spotted Arsenal in a shop window while passing through and made an impulse purchase. You think investments of this scale are hammered out over the weekend? This is what I mean, you are being totally unrealistic and then stamping the word FACT after each assumption.

Even on football related matters you conclude Wenger is more bothered about finishing 4th than winning something. In all honesty, how likely is that to be the case? Why would any manager aim for a lower placing that he thought was otherwise achievable? You could say Wenger lacks ambition by not striving for more but to say he prefers less isn't a convincing argument at all.

Why is Wenger the "prick" such a "douche"? You see what you are doing here? You are posing your argument in the form of a tantrum. And reaching for anything to throw at the guy. Which is foolish because there's enough valid ammunition to sling without making shit up and you wouldn't even have to get hot and bothered.

I am sorry I never read the article you never posted. Can you post that again?

And yes, I am suggesting AW is making a profit in transfers even though the board is not asking him to. Why? Because he lives in La La land in which he will win the championship with the Diaby's and Rosicky's along with youngsters coming in from the youth academy. The project has failed but he is too big headed a dick (see another tantrum..ooooh) to even accept his mistake and move on. He thinks his methods are the be all of football and he wont listen otherwise.. even though its clear as daylight to see his methods have failed.

Your expectation of Stan is to do something.. Did he do it? No.. will he do it? No idea! Your expectation is not necessarily going to play out the way it is. Again, so far, the board or Stan or even Wenger has EVER (there in capitals for u) implied that the managers hands are tied in making necessary transfers. Show me one freaking article.. will you find one? Nope. Will you show us a quote? Nope. YouWhat will instead go on about is what you expect to happen..

I do agree with the lady who posted that the board should be blamed for not firing Wenger. Unfortunately they are in awe of Wenger and his philosophy and see him as the new messiah of football. However, I see no reason (at least through my naked eye) to believe that the board has not backed Wenger in the transfer window.. every quote or news article would back that up.

And FYI, the prick, douches, c*nts come out for him coz I believe that he is ruining our club and taking us backward. I love my club and I cannot see it being ruined by a way past it manager and also in part by a board who do not have the cajones to fire the douche (One last curse to make me nap better)

[Power n Glory]

Wenger has always said that it is important for a manager to spend carefully and manage resources well. This isn't anything new. He's always been a bargin bin shopper and has a rep for spending very little. That goes as far back as Highbury and all the way back to Monaco. This didn't just start with Stan Kronke. In fact, Stan admires Billy Beane and Billy's idol is Arsene Wenger. There is a mutual respect and admiration for the way things are done and that's why Stan is on board. He hasn't come to rock the boat and he hasn't imposed anything on Wenger.

Stan Kronke.

‘Billy Beane is a very famous guy in America,’ Kroenke said. ‘And do you know who his idol is? Arsene Wenger. No kidding. You know why? His ability to spend money and extract value. That is what being successful in pro sports is all about.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2045282/Arsene-Wenger-hailed-fiscal-genius--said-Gordon-Brown-Martin-Samuel.html

Even if we have to live within our means, the main problem is the way money is spent. Last summer we spent a lot of money on duds and it was a lot of money. It's very hard to argue that Wenger is denied money when we spent like that on the final day of the window. How much was it £50-60m in total? It should have been spent more wisely but it wasn't.

As for the whole ambition question and top 4, winning the league is pretty tough but I just can't understand why we he's not going for the Carling Cup and FA Cup if the Champs League and League are beyond our reach. For his own pride and just to fill his players with some confidence and hungry, he should be going for these domestic cups. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to win a domestic cup when in the past we have won doubles and league titles while competing in Europe as well. Wenger has lost his hunger, has lost his eye for talent and that has nothing to do with the owners.

Edit: Sorry...the main problem isn't the way money is spent. There is more to it then that, such as gambling on player fitness/realiability (Diaby), rigid tactics and poor match preparation. How much Wenger is given to spend each year is a side issue.

[Niall_Quinn]

I am sorry I never read the article you never posted. Can you post that again?

And yes, I am suggesting AW is making a profit in transfers even though the board is not asking him to. Why? Because he lives in La La land in which he will win the championship with the Diaby's and Rosicky's along with youngsters coming in from the youth academy. The project has failed but he is too big headed a dick (see another tantrum..ooooh) to even accept his mistake and move on. He thinks his methods are the be all of football and he wont listen otherwise.. even though its clear as daylight to see his methods have failed.

Your expectation of Stan is to do something.. Did he do it? No.. will he do it? No idea! Your expectation is not necessarily going to play out the way it is. Again, so far, the board or Stan or even Wenger has EVER (there in capitals for u) implied that the managers hands are tied in making necessary transfers. Show me one freaking article.. will you find one? Nope. Will you show us a quote? Nope. YouWhat will instead go on about is what you expect to happen..

I do agree with the lady who posted that the board should be blamed for not firing Wenger. Unfortunately they are in awe of Wenger and his philosophy and see him as the new messiah of football. However, I see no reason (at least through my naked eye) to believe that the board has not backed Wenger in the transfer window.. every quote or news article would back that up.

And FYI, the prick, douches, c*nts come out for him coz I believe that he is ruining our club and taking us backward. I love my club and I cannot see it being ruined by a way past it manager and also in part by a board who do not have the cajones to fire the douche (One last curse to make me nap better)

Good grief. The article I never posted... FACT!

I have answered, in a lot more detail than your postings deserved, all of the points above. If you won't read the articles, won't acknowledge the responses provided, want to keep going in circles then there's no end to this. You asked what I expected of "Stan" and I answered. I didn't claim I was providing facts, the facts I stated related to what has already occurred, not what will occur in the future. You're trying to turn my own argument against me but you can't do the job properly because you don't understand the argument in the first place.

Now there's the awe thing, the half a billion awe trip. And acknowledgement that the key sin of the guys looting the club is not to have sacked Wenger already.

Not much for me to go on, is it?

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger has always said that it is important for a manager to spend carefully and manage resources well. This isn't anything new. He's always been a bargin bin shopper and has a rep for spending very little. That goes as far back as Highbury and all the way back to Monaco. This didn't just start with Stan Kronke. In fact, Stan admires Billy Beane and Billy's idol is Arsene Wenger. There is a mutual respect and admiration for the way things are done and that's why Stan is on board. He hasn't come to rock the boat and he hasn't imposed anything on Wenger.

Stan Kronke.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2045282/Arsene-Wenger-hailed-fiscal-genius--said-Gordon-Brown-Martin-Samuel.html

Even if we have to live within our means, the main problem is the way money is spent. Last summer we spent a lot of money on duds and it was a lot of money. It's very hard to argue that Wenger is denied money when we spent like that on the final day of the window. How much was it £50-60m in total? It should have been spent more wisely but it wasn't.

As for the whole ambition question and top 4, winning the league is pretty tough but I just can't understand why we he's not going for the Carling Cup and FA Cup if the Champs League and League are beyond our reach. For his own pride and just to fill his players with some confidence and hungry, he should be going for these domestic cups. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to win a domestic cup when in the past we have won doubles and league titles while competing in Europe as well. Wenger has lost his hunger, has lost his eye for talent and that has nothing to do with the owners.

Edit: Sorry...the main problem isn't the way money is spent. There is more to it then that, such as gambling on player fitness/realiability (Diaby), rigid tactics and poor match preparation. How much Wenger is given to spend each year is a side issue.

The way the money is spent is suggestive in itself. I wonder what was really going on behind the scenes during that particular window and not just in the last few days but the days leading up to it? That was the most rattled I have ever seen Wenger in his time at the club and I predict there'll be quite a story to tell somewhere down the road when he's free to tell it. It was also the closest I can remember him coming to openly going against the party line, with his statements about Fabregas and Nasri.

I agree with you regarding players like Diaby, Rosicky and even Gibbs. They are liabilities as much as they are assets because there's no stability when they spend most of their time on the treatment table. We've been pretty unlucky with thuggery though, look how it has cost us. The Eduardo turning point, Ramsey who is now a comedy player when before he showed the odd spark of potential. Diaby himself who has never had a significant period injury free since being cut down early in his career with us. In these cases Wenger isn't ruthless enough. But he's been ruthless in the past with his over 30s policy so it's an odd contradiction.

I think the reason we don;t go for the domestic cups is simple enough. The resources are prioritised, the CL comes first because of the revenue it generates. i don't believe it's any more complicated than that.

[fakeyank]

Good grief. The article I never posted... FACT!

I have answered, in a lot more detail than your postings deserved, all of the points above. If you won't read the articles, won't acknowledge the responses provided, want to keep going in circles then there's no end to this. You asked what I expected of "Stan" and I answered. I didn't claim I was providing facts, the facts I stated related to what has already occurred, not what will occur in the future. You're trying to turn my own argument against me but you can't do the job properly because you don't understand the argument in the first place.

Now there's the awe thing, the half a billion awe trip. And acknowledgement that the key sin of the guys looting the club is not to have sacked Wenger already.

Not much for me to go on, is it?

Still never saw the article or is it an article posted in one of your 10K posts? Sorry didnt read everything you posted so far. I'd have expected you to post it in one of the replies you gave to me.


Not much for me to go on, is it?

Not really. You have nothing to say that makes sense other than going on about how the board is the devil and reason for all the worlds problem. Obviously these devilish ploys of the board are all backed up by articles and quotes from people in the club (included in secret ink in all your posts).

[Niall_Quinn]

Still never saw the article or is it an article posted in one of your 10K posts? Sorry didnt read everything you posted so far. I'd have expected you to post it in one of the replies you gave to me.



Not really. You have nothing to say that makes sense other than going on about how the board is the devil and reason for all the worlds problem. Obviously these devilish ploys of the board are all backed up by articles and quotes from people in the club (included in secret ink in all your posts).

You do it to yourself.

I'm talking about my first direct response to you, the one that started this to and fro. Here:
http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1943&p=225207&viewfull=1#post225207

fact (I put fact in lower case because it actually is a fact this time)

[fakeyank]

You do it to yourself.

I'm talking about my first direct response to you, the one that started this to and fro. Here:
http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1943&p=225207&viewfull=1#post225207

fact (I put fact in lower case because it actually is a fact this time)

I read that article. That's an opinion of a fan who posted his view. Much like how you can start a blog.. just because it comes after a .com or .co.uk does not make that person's opinion valid. I thought you had an article where SAF criticized the board in an article and then back tracked after he got paid a lot of money. And even in that article, there is nothing that tells anything different than what we have been talking about. Yes, SAF sucks Glazer family dick but he does because he gets the players he wants and a handsome salary.

The article is summed up pretty well right at the beginning “Real fans,” said Sir Alex Ferguson on Saturday, will look at the Glazer family’s debt-fueled ownership of Manchester United over the past seven years and conclude that it “has not affected the team.”
Our ownership changed hands in 2010 but we have been in decline since 07. Our team was not affected because Stan took over. It has been a shower of shite since moving to Emirates. Their ownership changed in 04/05 yet there has been no decline in the quality of football. And if BBC and skysports news are to be believed, Utd's debt have been lowered considerably too.

[Power n Glory]

The way the money is spent is suggestive in itself. I wonder what was really going on behind the scenes during that particular window and not just in the last few days but the days leading up to it? That was the most rattled I have ever seen Wenger in his time at the club and I predict there'll be quite a story to tell somewhere down the road when he's free to tell it. It was also the closest I can remember him coming to openly going against the party line, with his statements about Fabregas and Nasri.

I agree with you regarding players like Diaby, Rosicky and even Gibbs. They are liabilities as much as they are assets because there's no stability when they spend most of their time on the treatment table. We've been pretty unlucky with thuggery though, look how it has cost us. The Eduardo turning point, Ramsey who is now a comedy player when before he showed the odd spark of potential. Diaby himself who has never had a significant period injury free since being cut down early in his career with us. In these cases Wenger isn't ruthless enough. But he's been ruthless in the past with his over 30s policy so it's an odd contradiction.

I think the reason we don;t go for the domestic cups is simple enough. The resources are prioritised, the CL comes first because of the revenue it generates. i don't believe it's any more complicated than that.

I don't think there is any grand conspiracy in it. Two of his key players wanted to leave while Barca and Man City were trying to stiff us on the price. That's why he looked rattled. He went to the Board and told them to lower the fee for Fabregas so we can't make out as if it was forced on him by the Board. We've seen a similar outcome with RVP and it took a phone from Fergie to get the deal done. He didn't call Stan, PHW or Gazidis. He called Wenger and the deal was done.

Now on the flipside, we have Walcott. How comes he's been allowed to run his deal down so far to the point where we lose him for free? If something fishy were going on, wouldn't Walcott have been sold this summer? Wenger wouldn't let men with inferior knowledge of the game interfere with his team in such a way. He wouldn't happen on his watch.

Injuries have been a problem but I disagree with the Ramsey assessment. He used to play suicicidal blind passes before his injury. His awareness and passing had always been shit and awareness has nothing to do with a past injury. His shooting though, that has always been good and he hasn't lost that but because we miss ball carriers in the middle and around the park that can create space for him, he's not able to find pockets of space anymore.

As for the cups...the money behind each trophy is probably how it is prioritised but that isn't an excuse. We shouldn't have lost a cup final to Birmingham and there are teams that are able to win doubles. Is it impossible to go for 4th, go for Europe and win a domestic cup? I don't think so. And you have to question the sort of guy Wenger is when he blatantly ignored the pleas of the fans and his players like this. He's able to put the boards priorities first but won't even attempt to treat the players or fans to a little treat.

If you're going to fuck us over at least bring home the roses once in a while. Mean bastard. :lol:

[gooners]

wenger's hands are tied; he was forced to pay denilson 40k p/w by board only to loan him out later then flog him.

the board have been forcing wenger to pay bendtner such huge wages so much so we can't get rid of him.

the board have tied wenger's hands ....(fill in the blanks)

[Özim]

wenger's hands are tied; he was forced to pay denilson 40k p/w by board only to loan him out later then flog him.

the board have been forcing wenger to pay bendtner such huge wages so much so we can't get rid of him.

the board have tied wenger's hands ....(fill in the blanks)
Yeah and the board force him to stay in a job paying 7 million a year......oh how cruel they are.

Poor guy, someone save him :(

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah and the board force him to stay in a job paying 7 million a year......oh how cruel they are.

How does a statement like that even begin to stand as a reasonable argument related to the conversation? It's just juvenile.

[Cripps_orig]

Impressive thread

Havent read all of it

Someone summarize

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think there is any grand conspiracy in it. Two of his key players wanted to leave while Barca and Man City were trying to stiff us on the price. That's why he looked rattled. He went to the Board and told them to lower the fee for Fabregas so we can't make out as if it was forced on him by the Board. We've seen a similar outcome with RVP and it took a phone from Fergie to get the deal done. He didn't call Stan, PHW or Gazidis. He called Wenger and the deal was done.

Now on the flipside, we have Walcott. How comes he's been allowed to run his deal down so far to the point where we lose him for free? If something fishy were going on, wouldn't Walcott have been sold this summer? Wenger wouldn't let men with inferior knowledge of the game interfere with his team in such a way. He wouldn't happen on his watch.

Injuries have been a problem but I disagree with the Ramsey assessment. He used to play suicicidal blind passes before his injury. His awareness and passing had always been shit and awareness has nothing to do with a past injury. His shooting though, that has always been good and he hasn't lost that but because we miss ball carriers in the middle and around the park that can create space for him, he's not able to find pockets of space anymore.

As for the cups...the money behind each trophy is probably how it is prioritised but that isn't an excuse. We shouldn't have lost a cup final to Birmingham and there are teams that are able to win doubles. Is it impossible to go for 4th, go for Europe and win a domestic cup? I don't think so. And you have to question the sort of guy Wenger is when he blatantly ignored the pleas of the fans and his players like this. He's able to put the boards priorities first but won't even attempt to treat the players or fans to a little treat.

If you're going to fuck us over at least bring home the roses once in a while. Mean bastard. :lol:

Wenger tried to force the price up for the RvC deal didn't he? And Walcott wants out. These two transfers don't necessarily tie in with the mad window a couple of years back anyway. Again, we are playing with pieces of the puzzle. It doesn't make any sense at all that Wenger would try to force the price down just for the sake of it. Surely anyone can accept that? There must be other connected circumstances. If there aren't then fair enough and strange indeed. But let's not just accept the fact Wenger was trying to get the worst deal possible without also accepting there may be more to it than was made public.

Ramsey showed sparks of potential I said, didn't mean he was the finished article. But he plays like a 40 year old now, for whatever reasons.

This is getting into what goes on on the pitch. No point arguing about it because I don't know what the reliance on non-performing players is all about, or the weird substitutions or the rest of it. Those are the areas in which I think we'd benefit from a new manager with new ideas. But whether somebody can be found to meet the additional requirements of the job is another question.

[Niall_Quinn]

Impressive thread

Havent read all of it

Someone summarize

0-0

[Cripps_orig]

0-0

So the thread was as exciting as the match?

We can blame Wenger for the match. No one can dispute that. Who do we blame for the thread?

[Power n Glory]

Wenger tried to force the price up for the RvC deal didn't he? And Walcott wants out. These two transfers don't necessarily tie in with the mad window a couple of years back anyway. Again, we are playing with pieces of the puzzle. It doesn't make any sense at all that Wenger would try to force the price down just for the sake of it. Surely anyone can accept that? There must be other connected circumstances. If there aren't then fair enough and strange indeed. But let's not just accept the fact Wenger was trying to get the worst deal possible without also accepting there may be more to it than was made public.

Ramsey showed sparks of potential I said, didn't mean he was the finished article. But he plays like a 40 year old now, for whatever reasons.

This is getting into what goes on on the pitch. No point arguing about it because I don't know what the reliance on non-performing players is all about, or the weird substitutions or the rest of it. Those are the areas in which I think we'd benefit from a new manager with new ideas. But whether somebody can be found to meet the additional requirements of the job is another question.


There isn't much to figure out and there is no grand conspiracy. If Wenger has the ability to try and force up the price for the RVP deal, get the board to accept less for Cesc's deal and keep hold of Walcott even though we lose money, what is that telling you? There is a level of control there staring right at us but you're refusing to see. Again, Fergie called Wenger to negotiate the RVP deal. It really does seem like you're trying as hard as possible to fit this into a major conspiracy involving the board. Again, Fergie called Wenger to get the deal done. One manager spoke to another manger. That's a clue in how managers do business. Stan didn't call the Glazers's to push the deal through.

It's pretty simple. You've seen Wenger's reaction when people undermine him. Do you really think he'd stand for the board selling his players without his approval?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Impressive thread

Havent read all of it

Someone summarize

BWK's 5-7 TPS

BWK's took a 4-0 lead as well :haha:

Truth Prevails Society :bow:

[Özim]

How does a statement like that even begin to stand as a reasonable argument related to the conversation? It's just juvenile.
You ignored my valid points completely so I moved on.

Fact is he's no victim he's a big problem and part and parcel of this money thing, he endorses it and gets paid handsomely for it.

[Özim]

So the thread was as exciting as the match?

We can blame Wenger for the match. No one can dispute that. Who do we blame for the thread?
NQ will tell you the board are at fault for the match...and the substitutions...and the tactics.....and the motivation.....greed does funny things.

[Niall_Quinn]

There isn't much to figure out and there is no grand conspiracy. If Wenger has the ability to try and force up the price for the RVP deal, get the board to accept less for Cesc's deal and keep hold of Walcott even though we lose money, what is that telling you? There is a level of control there staring right at us but you're refusing to see. Again, Fergie called Wenger to negotiate the RVP deal. It really does seem like you're trying as hard as possible to fit this into a major conspiracy involving the board. Again, Fergie called Wenger to get the deal done. One manager spoke to another manger. That's a clue in how managers do business. Stan didn't call the Glazers's to push the deal through.

It's pretty simple. You've seen Wenger's reaction when people undermine him. Do you really think he'd stand for the board selling his players without his approval?

Are you serious? I'm taking neither of the extreme positions. I don't believe he has control neither do I believe he has zero influence. Like any senior executive at any company he will have significant influence in some areas and very little in others. So what, do you think Fergie phoned Wenger and they set a deal and Wenger walked into the boardroom to tell them the details? Is that how it works in a big company? And before that he walked in and said, guess what guys - I have accepted less money for Fabregas. Why does a realistic picture of a business have to be a conspiracy theory?

As for the board selling players out from under him, I doubt that happens either and it's another extremely simplified view. There's a player involved too. If the general environment is one of minor or zero investment that has led to a failure to effectively compete then the players want to leave if they think they can get better elsewhere. The lack of investment is not a blatant act of selling players against the will of the manager, but it won't help keep the players at the club either, will it? This is a complex business, not a group of guys standing in various corners throwing mud at each other. And neither will it be everyone standing in the middle of the room slapping each other on the back. Dein, for example, is more than aware of that fact.

Haven't you ever experienced a work environment? People agree, disagree, collaborate and the company moves on weighted consensus with those who have invested the most having the most influence on the most important decisions. Would Kroenke get involved in the costing for toner for the photocopier? Probably not. Would he be involved in setting the overall annual budget and financial policies? I would think so. Does he consult Wenger? On some matters it would be wise to no doubt.

In the end though, it's just silly pretending Wenger runs Arsenal and there have been a lot of words expended on a completely unrealistic business scenario. Why do you guys persist? What's the purpose? Wenger isn't going to leave because wild accusations are being thrown around GW.

[Cripps_orig]

:blink:

Another NQ shocker then?

[Niall_Quinn]

You ignored my valid points completely so I moved on.

Fact is he's no victim he's a big problem and part and parcel of this money thing, he endorses it and gets paid handsomely for it.

Jeez, I missed a whinge - and I thought I'd got them all. Sorry about that.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Are you serious? I'm taking neither of the extreme positions. I don't believe he has control neither do I believe he has zero influence. Like any senior executive at any company he will have significant influence in some areas and very little in others. So what, do you think Fergie phoned Wenger and they set a deal and Wenger walked into the boardroom to tell them the details? Is that how it works in a big company? And before that he walked in and said, guess what guys - I have accepted less money for Fabregas. Why does a realistic picture of a business have to be a conspiracy theory?

As for the board selling players out from under him, I doubt that happens either and it's another extremely simplified view. There's a player involved too. If the general environment is one of minor or zero investment that has led to a failure to effectively compete then the players want to leave if they think they can get better elsewhere. The lack of investment is not a blatant act of selling players against the will of the manager, but it won't help keep the players at the club either, will it? This is a complex business, not a group of guys standing in various corners throwing mud at each other. And neither will it be everyone standing in the middle of the room slapping each other on the back. Dein, for example, is more than aware of that fact.

Haven't you ever experienced a work environment? People agree, disagree, collaborate and the company moves on weighted consensus with those who have invested the most having the most influence on the most important decisions. Would Kroenke get involved in the costing for toner for the photocopier? Probably not. Would he be involved in setting the overall annual budget and financial policies? I would think so. Does he consult Wenger? On some matters it would be wise to no doubt.

In the end though, it's just silly pretending Wenger runs Arsenal and there have been a lot of words expended on a completely unrealistic business scenario. Why do you guys persist? What's the purpose? Wenger isn't going to leave because wild accusations are being thrown around GW.

its ramseys fault.

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ will tell you the board are at fault for the match...and the substitutions...and the tactics.....and the motivation.....greed does funny things.

This doesn't work on me.

[Özim]

Jeez, I missed a whinge - and I thought I'd got them all. Sorry about that.
Surprising, I thought you'd be the expert on those kind of things.

[Özim]

This doesn't work on me.
Doesn't work on me either, that's why I don't agree with your posts most of the time.

[Niall_Quinn]

Doesn't work on me either, that's why I don't agree with your posts most of the time.

Same to you x 1 million and I'm shutting my eyes so I can't see your response which means I win :trophy:

[Özim]

Same to you x 1 million and I'm shutting my eyes so I can't see your response which means I win :trophy:
:lol:

Careful though, I thought I saw PHW sniffing around when you mentioned 1 million.

[IBK]

There isn't much to figure out and there is no grand conspiracy. If Wenger has the ability to try and force up the price for the RVP deal, get the board to accept less for Cesc's deal and keep hold of Walcott even though we lose money, what is that telling you? There is a level of control there staring right at us but you're refusing to see. Again, Fergie called Wenger to negotiate the RVP deal. It really does seem like you're trying as hard as possible to fit this into a major conspiracy involving the board. Again, Fergie called Wenger to get the deal done. One manager spoke to another manger. That's a clue in how managers do business. Stan didn't call the Glazers's to push the deal through.

It's pretty simple. You've seen Wenger's reaction when people undermine him. Do you really think he'd stand for the board selling his players without his approval?

This. I honestly don't think the board are tying Wenger's hands in any way. I'll accept that he is subject to economic pressures - but my reading of it is that he imposes these on himself as much as the board imposes them. I think that the manager's philosphy has always been to pay what he believes is value for money in the transfer market, and that this - together with a self-belief that he can bring new developmental players in to fill the gap left by sales at the top - means that he is philosophical about his best players leaving rather than putting pressure on the board to cough up what they might demand to stay.

Where I am prepared to cut Wenger some slack is that I do believe that he regards himself as a custodian of the club, and I think that he is hyper aware of the effects of paying what he regards as inflated wages. But against this, I think that he is as much to blame for any lack of flexibility in this regard as he takes too many risks, pays mediocre players too much, and slavishly sticks to a policy of wage equality in the mistaken belief that this fosters squad unity/loyalty.

The fact that the board supports Wenger in his bids for potential (we pay top dollar for these inds of players - possibly more than anyone else) suggests to be that he is given more freedom by our board than most other managers, not vice versa. Kroenke has said many times that he backs Wenger to the hilt - and commentators have said that because of his lack of knowledge about the game he trusts Wenger 100% - and why not, when the guy has delivered profitability far more consistently than trophies in recent years.

At best, Wenger enjoys unrivalled power at our club, at worst, his motivations and those of the board are, IMHO identical. Unfortunately, this has resulted in the manager's acceptance of not winning things.

[Power n Glory]

Are you serious? I'm taking neither of the extreme positions. I don't believe he has control neither do I believe he has zero influence. Like any senior executive at any company he will have significant influence in some areas and very little in others. So what, do you think Fergie phoned Wenger and they set a deal and Wenger walked into the boardroom to tell them the details? Is that how it works in a big company? And before that he walked in and said, guess what guys - I have accepted less money for Fabregas. Why does a realistic picture of a business have to be a conspiracy theory?

As for the board selling players out from under him, I doubt that happens either and it's another extremely simplified view. There's a player involved too. If the general environment is one of minor or zero investment that has led to a failure to effectively compete then the players want to leave if they think they can get better elsewhere. The lack of investment is not a blatant act of selling players against the will of the manager, but it won't help keep the players at the club either, will it? This is a complex business, not a group of guys standing in various corners throwing mud at each other. And neither will it be everyone standing in the middle of the room slapping each other on the back. Dein, for example, is more than aware of that fact.

Haven't you ever experienced a work environment? People agree, disagree, collaborate and the company moves on weighted consensus with those who have invested the most having the most influence on the most important decisions. Would Kroenke get involved in the costing for toner for the photocopier? Probably not. Would he be involved in setting the overall annual budget and financial policies? I would think so. Does he consult Wenger? On some matters it would be wise to no doubt.

In the end though, it's just silly pretending Wenger runs Arsenal and there have been a lot of words expended on a completely unrealistic business scenario. Why do you guys persist? What's the purpose? Wenger isn't going to leave because wild accusations are being thrown around GW.

Yes, I am serious because the below comments seem to suggest that there is something sinister going on behind the scenes and I highly doubt that.


I wonder what was really going on behind the scenes during that particular window and not just in the last few days but the days leading up to it? That was the most rattled I have ever seen Wenger in his time at the club and I predict there'll be quite a story to tell somewhere down the road when he's free to tell it. It was also the closest I can remember him coming to openly going against the party line, with his statements about Fabregas and Nasri.


Again, we are playing with pieces of the puzzle. It doesn't make any sense at all that Wenger would try to force the price down just for the sake of it.

As far as control goes, I think Wenger has a say in what happens with his team. I doubt he gets involved with sponsorship talk, building projects and all that sort of stuff, but as far as the playing side, I assume he has a massive say and it's not extreme to suggest that.

[Niall_Quinn]

What, it's conspiracy talk to suggest the board and manager might not disclose the entire inner workings of the club in public? Or they might not be 100% in agreement the entire time and on every issue but even so might keep a united public front? It was extremely odd for Wenger to be insisting the players were staying right up until the point they walked out the door. It was extremely odd for him to say we can't be a big team if we sell our big players. Those comments didn't strike me as being harmonious. I can predict some will jump on that and claim Wenger is mad, deluded and all the rest, but is it a conspiracy to suggest he may not be mad, may not be delusional and instead didn't see eye to eye 100% with the policies of the club? In that instance at least?

So what's your take on Wenger supposedly forcing the price down on the Fabregas deal? Deliberately trying to harm the club? Mad? A secret agent for Barcelona? Spiteful? Having an affair with Fabregas? Trying to increase his fixed salary by making a profit from player sales (but why force the price down in that case)? I'm the conspiracy nutter wildly suggesting we may not know the whole story, so you tell me, what's the real reason behind Wenger's actions?

I didn't claim Wenger has no say in the playing side, I said he'd have more influence in some areas than others. Which is the same as you seem to be saying. So I agree, it's not extreme. I was pointing out that the general finances of the club (which we both seem to agree Wenger wouldn't be much involved with) could most certainly have a knock on effect even on the pitch.

[Özim]

What, it's conspiracy talk to suggest the board and manager might not disclose the entire inner workings of the club in public? Or they might not be 100% in agreement the entire time and on every issue but even so might keep a united public front? It was extremely odd for Wenger to be insisting the players were staying right up until the point they walked out the door. It was extremely odd for him to say we can't be a big team if we sell our big players. Those comments didn't strike me as being harmonious. I can predict some will jump on that and claim Wenger is mad, deluded and all the rest, but is it a conspiracy to suggest he may not be mad, may not be delusional and instead didn't see eye to eye 100% with the policies of the club? In that instance at least?

So what's your take on Wenger supposedly forcing the price down on the Fabregas deal? Deliberately trying to harm the club? Mad? A secret agent for Barcelona? Spiteful? Having an affair with Fabregas? Trying to increase his fixed salary by making a profit from player sales (but why force the price down in that case)? I'm the conspiracy nutter wildly suggesting we may not know the whole story, so you tell me, what's the real reason behind Wenger's actions?

I didn't claim Wenger has no say in the playing side, I said he'd have more influence in some areas than others. Which is the same as you seem to be saying. So I agree, it's not extreme. I was pointing out that the general finances of the club (which we both seem to agree Wenger wouldn't be much involved with) could most certainly have a knock on effect even on the pitch.
Wenger Bullsh*ts all the time, I don't find it odd that he claims players are staying all the way up until they go at all.

1) In the past he's maintained we had great spirit and togetherness (even when teammates are fighting)
2) He's claimed we still had a chance of signing someone, even when they've publicly come out and said they are waiting to get their passport and are staying in Spain
3) He's said he only looks for super super quality and yet signed players who are clearly nowhere near this level

That's just some examples of him contradicting himself, just because he says someone is staying it doesn't mean it's true, he's been caught out many times telling anything but the truth.

As for Cesc, well he's been shown to put his players above anything else....he see's himself as a dad to them that's why they all love him so much, they get everything they want out of him and he never criticises them in any way even when he should.

He even went as far as blaming the hand that feeds him when Adebayor left, so yes it's very easy to see why he'd ask us to drop the price for Cesc.

[Letters]

That's just some examples of him contradicting himself, just because he says someone is staying it doesn't mean it's true, he's been caught out many times telling anything but the truth.
And yet any time you want to back up any of your wild assertions about what Wenger believes you pull some quote out of your backside and present it as the gospel truth.

:shrug:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

And yet any time you want to back up any of your wild assertions about what Wenger believes you pull some quote out of your backside and present it as the gospel truth.

:shrug:

:lol: