A couple of observations

[Toronto Gooner]

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Ok.....

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

Make some good points but we need to go on a big run tbh. Lets hope this win gives them confidnece. You can't worry about what will happen in 2 or 5 games times.

You can only try and win your next game and so on. Alot depends on the Jan window too. If Aw mans up and brings players in then sure we have a chance.

[Marc Overmars]

It won't be discussed or commented on because whether we finish top 4 or not, the problems with the club are too far gone and only dramatic success will see a change of mentality. No Arsenal fan is going to be jumping for joy if we (as expected) meander into the top 4.

As for those above us not performing to last seasons standard, we are over 10 points behind the top 2 so it's scant consolation.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Problem is, our leader, once a winner, has resigned himself to mediocrity. It's a slump which he will never get out of because to do so, he'd have to go against the football principles he so strongly believes in.

It even worsens when you consider that a team is not required to come 1st or 2nd to realise massive profits annually. Therefore, the leader's bosses are kept happy even with lacklustre performances each season, as their snouts, firmly entrenched in the troughs, have more than enough to gouge down and stuff their fat bellies.

[Kano]

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.
In the bigger picture, what does that mean?

[Özim]

It won't be discussed or commented on because whether we finish top 4 or not, the problems with the club are too far gone and only dramatic success will see a change of mentality. No Arsenal fan is going to be jumping for joy if we (as expected) meander into the top 4.

As for those above us not performing to last seasons standard, we are over 10 points behind the top 2 so it's scant consolation.
If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4 you can bet your house on the fact Wenger will be proud and use that as a stick to beat the fans with.

He'll basically think everything is perfect and nothing needs to change and that my friend is a depressing thought.

[Joker]

We're not in complete meltdown that's true, but even though we're relatively close to 3rd, our performances on the pitch and lack of squad depth is the reason why people are so concerned. We've got a huge January coming up, with games against City, Liverpool and Chelsea, and I don't think we have a good enough squad to cope with those games. So even though we're within distance of the top 4, after January we could very well be languishing in mid table.

[Globalgunner]

The most pertinent observation is that we are AGAIN not looking like we will threaten the two manchesters for the title. We are a football club either for its fans or we are a fraud organisation. The fans who want Wenger to leave want him to go because he has NOT even shown that he wants to win or will learn from past mistakes and effect the changes needed to win. The club is not supposed to exist simply to keep Wenger happy and in coin. Every other manager in the EPL is under pressure either to win things, improve on last years performance, or stay in the league. Only Wenger it seems has no targets at all.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4 you can bet your house on the fact Wenger will be proud and use that as a stick to beat the fans with.

He'll basically think everything is perfect and nothing needs to change and that my friend is a depressing thought.

I'm sorry we ruined your weekend by winning.

[Özim]

I'm sorry we ruined your weekend by winning.
Great contribution once again, keep up the good work :good:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

I think this is because the overall level of quality in the EPL has been declining and it is pretty much heading in the opposite direction to the level of money pumped in to fund the product we now watch.

And the product is by and large boring, unwatchable dirge.

If we were paying the players of the past along the same lines the players of today earn, the likes of Vieira, Henry and Bergkamp could legitimately command £500k a week.

[Letters]

If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4.:lol:

Funny how we're 'lucky' every single year.

[Özim]

:lol:

Funny how we're 'lucky' every single year.
What can I say, Wenger may not be the most competent but he sure is lucky! :lol:

[Letters]

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.

Spot on, Chavs winning the Cl now that's luck if i ever saw any tbh. But its not Arsenal so i guess it was down to quality :rolleyes:

[Özim]

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.
Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

He has stayed fit for a long time now, well over two years to be exact. In any case you wouldn't put our travails before last season to RVP being injured so often as 'bad luck' (a get out card) so I can't see what talking about 'luck' achieves.

[Kano]

Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.
every team gets luck along the way, either in their games or with opponents suffering defeats because of luck. i'm sure there have been plenty of teams relegated on the last day that can blame luck too. there is no way to quantify it to determine if it balances out for teams but the point is, everyone suffers and benefits from it. we stumbled into third last season but over the course of 38 games, we deserved it.

wasn't RVP just unlucky with injuries? if not, then man utd are benefiting from his continued luck and cannot take full credit for performances so far this season.

[Özim]

He has stayed fit for a long time now, well over two years to be exact. In any case you wouldn't put our travails before last season to RVP being injured so often as 'bad luck' (a get out card) so I can't see what talking about 'luck' achieves.
Yes that's true but before last season he hadn't really managed to stay fit for any significant amount of time (wasn't he injured for half a season the season before that?).

[Letters]

Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.
:lol:

Dear Lord, you really are reaching.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yes that's true but before last season he hadn't really managed to stay fit for any significant amount of time (wasn't he injured for half a season the season before that?).

He was indeed. However he hasn't broken down for Man Utd so whatever change he made in his (personal physio) training, it has been a successful one. Man Utd's medical staff are as bad as ours.

[Özim]

every team gets luck along the way, either in their games or with opponents suffering defeats because of luck. i'm sure there have been plenty of teams relegated on the last day that can blame luck too. there is no way to quantify it to determine if it balances out for teams but the point is, everyone suffers and benefits from it. we stumbled into third last season but over the course of 38 games, we deserved it.

wasn't RVP just unlucky with injuries? if not, then man utd are benefiting from his continued luck and cannot take full credit for performances so far this season.
Last season I really think had the Redknapp problems and the Redknapp for England things not come about they'd have been above us, to tall intent and purposes they had a better team...RVP was our saving grace I guess.

Some other clubs just don't have the squads to compete, we have due to our larger finances, they may not all be top quality but we have more quality to cope with the number of games for sure.

RVP injuries couldn't just be put down to back luck when he had so many of them, likewise Rosicky, Diaby, King etc.....these players just don't seem to be built for the game, either that or it's poor treatment of injuries (also very possible).

[Özim]

:lol:

Dear Lord, you really are reaching.
The Lord can't hear you, he's busy helping Wenger to 4th place at the moment!

[Özim]

He was indeed. However he hasn't broken down for Man Utd so whatever change he made in his (personal physio) training, it has been a successful one. Man Utd's medical staff are as bad as ours.
I don't disagree, however I still think relying on him last season was a massive gamble and it was pot luck as to whether he was going to stay fit or not, noone in their right minds could have envisaged him not getting injured for the whole season, that would be like needing to catch a plane and relying on someone who's always very late to drop you at the airport on time, it could happen but you wouldn't bet your house on it and logic would suggest it would be better to ask someone else or book a taxi.

[Letters]

If we finished lower than 4th you'd say the league table never lies.
We did so you dismiss it as luck.
Anything but give the club or Wenger any credit I guess.

[Özim]

If we finished lower than 4th you'd say the league table never lies.
We did so you dismiss it as luck.
Anything but give the club or Wenger any credit I guess.
I don't use that terminology so no :lol:

Wenger doesn't deserve credit in my book because as I've said before I think he's doing an awful job, he got enough credit in the days we were winning, the credit has run out now though.

[Kano]

Last season I really think had the Redknapp problems and the Redknapp for England things not come about they'd have been above us, to tall intent and purposes they had a better team...RVP was our saving grace I guess.

Some other clubs just don't have the squads to compete, we have due to our larger finances, they may not all be top quality but we have more quality to cope with the number of games for sure.

RVP injuries couldn't just be put down to back luck when he had so many of them, likewise Rosicky, Diaby, King etc.....these players just don't seem to be built for the game, either that or it's poor treatment of injuries (also very possible).
yeah he was our saving grace but that isn't down to luck, the passes to him and his finishes weren't lucky. i'm not sure why you are isolating this argument as you are. city, utd and chelsea all have healthy doses of luck across the season, it is worth imagining what their seasons could be like if they were afforded no luck at all. there is no way you can separate those moments from the those that are down to ability. it is far too intricate; luck and ability almost go hand in hand sometimes.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't disagree, however I still think relying on him last season was a massive gamble and it was pot luck as to whether he was going to stay fit or not, noone in their right minds could have envisaged him not getting injured for the whole season, that would be like needing to catch a plane and relying on someone who's always very late to drop you at the airport on time, it could happen but you wouldn't bet your house on it and logic would suggest it would be better to ask someone else or book a taxi.

You'd trust that person if they've made the effort and changes to think about the best way to achieve what they want to achieve, unlike before when they were doing the same things again and again.

Regardless of stretching an analogy to bursting point, what you're forgetting about RVP is that they were rarely wear and tear injuries; they were usually lengthy impact injuries. Unlike Diaby who can't have any hamstrings left and you can't really avoid using your hamstrings in football.

If football is so easily determined by 'luck' and 'unluck' then what's the point of ever casting judgement on anyone or anything if that is all it comes down to?

[Özim]

yeah he was our saving grace but that isn't down to luck, the passes to him and his finishes weren't lucky. i'm not sure why you are isolating this argument as you are. city, utd and chelsea all have healthy doses of luck across the season, it is worth imagining what their seasons could be like if they were afforded no luck at all. there is no way you can separate those moments from the those that are down to ability. it is far too intricate; luck and ability almost go hand in hand sometimes.
The Spurs problems were though, those don't happen in a normal season.

The teams you mention have top quality players, players of that quality will always give you a much better chance of winning, all teams do get luck however the better players you have the less you rely on it. In the days we had top players we still had lucky moments, but rarely did we need them as we'd generally win games on merit before luck played a part.

[Master Splinter]

The Lord can't hear you, he's busy helping Wenger to 4th place at the moment!

The funny thing about this is that you've successfully destroyed your own argument by equating one nebulous, non-existent, non-quantifiable entity ('luck') to another ('God').

You should incorporate some talk about magic, sorcery, voodoo and Uri Gellerism into further discussions to win more internet battles.

[Özim]

You'd trust that person if they've made the effort and changes to think about the best way to achieve what they want to achieve, unlike before when they were doing the same things again and again.

Regardless of stretching an analogy to bursting point, what you're forgetting about RVP is that they were rarely wear and tear injuries; they were usually lengthy impact injuries. Unlike Diaby who can't have any hamstrings left and you can't really avoid using your hamstrings in football.

If football is so easily determined by 'luck' and 'unluck' then what's the point of ever casting judgement on anyone or anything if that is all it comes down to?
I've known people like this and no I wouldn't, someone has to prove they've changed.

Football isn't all about luck, quality of players and team tactics/ethic etc come into it, from what I can see we lack quality, the tactics are poor and the team has a poor work ethic and mentality...this doesn't correspond to the traits top teams have.

I can accept a top team with top players doing well because they have top players and perhaps a manager who coaches them well, uses tactics effectively and gets them drilled in the art of whatever position it is they play in, none of this seems to apply to us or Wenger, certainly not in the last few years.

[Kano]

The Spurs problems were though, those don't happen in a normal season.

The teams you mention have top quality players, players of that quality will always give you a much better chance of winning, all teams do get luck however the better players you have the less you rely on it. In the days we had top players we still had lucky moments, but rarely did we need them as we'd generally win games on merit before luck played a part.
luck doesn't come down to purely in-house issues but what happens in a game, through bad decisions from oppositions to referee decisions. the spurs situation was lucky but then where do you stop, how do you determine what exactly comes down to luck or not? we were not the only beneficiaries of tottenham's slump, so the teams that beat them also got a helping hand. then can you determine if that 'luck' meant winning a game, gaining confidence and perhaps winning the next one etc? how much credit do we give to those teams too? in fact, in every tackle players are afforded luck that it did not injure them. it just goes on and on if you want to analyse things in that way.

[Özim]

The funny thing about this is that you've successfully destroyed your own argument by equating one nebulous, non-existent, non-quantifiable entity ('luck') to another ('God').

You should incorporate some talk about magic, sorcery, voodoo and Uri Gellerism into further discussions to win more internet battles.
I was going to but I've lost my voodoo doll, all my spoons are in the dishwasher and I broke my magic wand when Swansea scored the 2nd against us last week. My magic ball works but it needs a clean and I'm out of window cleaner so I can't see what's going on.

[Özim]

luck doesn't come down to purely in-house issues but what happens in a game, through bad decisions from oppositions to referee decisions. the spurs situation was lucky but then where do you stop, how do you determine what exactly comes down to luck or not? we were not the only beneficiaries of tottenham's slump, so the teams that beat them also got a helping hand. then can you determine if that 'luck' meant winning a game, gaining confidence and perhaps winning the next one etc? how much credit do we give to those teams too? in fact, in every tackle players are afforded luck that it did not injure them. it just goes on and on if you want to analyse things in that way.
Luck in games evens itself out over a season as I've always said, we got lucky today and might get unlucky next week...some people go off on one when we get bad decisions but that happens and in a different week the opposite happens......but stuff off the field (i.e what happened to Spurs) isn't really a normal football situation so that is a lucky scenario for the clubs battling with them for 3rd/4th.

Yes the teams that beat them also got a helping hand, but we were probably the best of the rest, certainly in terms of squad depth after Spurs so naturally we ended up above them.

As for injuries, there's luck involved obviously, but some players are always injured, I wouldn't put this down to bad luck, that's just normality, it would be abnormal for Diaby and Rosicky to stay fit all season and they never have.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I've known people like this and no I wouldn't, someone has to prove they've changed.

Football isn't all about luck, quality of players and team tactics/ethic etc come into it, from what I can see we lack quality, the tactics are poor and the team has a poor work ethic and mentality...this doesn't correspond to the traits top teams have.

I can accept a top team with top players doing well because they have top players and perhaps a manager who coaches them well, uses tactics effectively and gets them drilled in the art of whatever position it is they play in, none of this seems to apply to us or Wenger, certainly not in the last few years.

Nine months would be enough to indicate a change has been made, I would imagine. Anyway you're talking about someone being unreliable because of their fault as a character (in your analogy, tardiness) but in RVP's case we're talking about being unfortunate in that previous unreliability (injuries).

Everyone can argue forever and a day about how other teams have benefitted from luck. We were lucky in 97/98 when Man Utd collapsed, they were lucky in 02/03 when we collapsed. And so on and so forth.

Winning seven games in a row when we did last season cannot be put down to luck, not when you consider the teams we beat in that run. You just can't fluke seven wins in a row, a manager must be doing something right even if it's only to a level of 3rd/4th rather than 1st/2nd.

[Kano]

can you show how luck 'evens itself out' accurately, or is it just and easy phrase to throw out there? because, no offence, i think that is nonsense.

doesn't


but we were probably the best of the rest, certainly in terms of squad depth after Spurs so naturally we ended up above them.

contradict your assertion that we were lucky to get top four last season?

[Globalgunner]

Luck.......is this what Wengerism is now distilled to?. We were not the 3rd best team last season. The 3rd best team (Chelsea) had a perfect storm that they brought about themselves with manager mismanagement by the owner. The 4th best team...(Tiny Totts) keelhauled themselves (as usual) and we. 5/6th best, stumbled in on the last day. Where we got lucky was having an opposition keeper on the final day who played as if Wenger had handed him a sackful of 50 pound notes the night before. Does any one remember the absolutely diabolical run we were on right after overtaking the spuds I think 5 defeats in 8, we did everything possible to throw it away.

[Özim]

can you show how luck 'evens itself out' accurately, or is it just and easy phrase to throw out there? because, no offence, i think that is nonsense.

doesn't
That's impossible to do, but you have to accept some decisions go for you and some against you, today we had two in our favour which led to goals, I'm sure we've had 2 already this season that have gone against us. It swings in roundabouts, you win some and you lose some.


contradict your assertion that we were lucky to get top four last season?
Last season I meant we were lucky to get above Spurs (Chelsea were awful until Di Matteo took over), so I should have said lucky to get 3rd.

[Özim]

Nine months would be enough to indicate a change has been made, I would imagine. Anyway you're talking about someone being unreliable because of their fault as a character (in your analogy, tardiness) but in RVP's case we're talking about being unfortunate in that previous unreliability (injuries).

Everyone can argue forever and a day about how other teams have benefitted from luck. We were lucky in 97/98 when Man Utd collapsed, they were lucky in 02/03 when we collapsed. And so on and so forth.

Winning seven games in a row when we did last season cannot be put down to luck, not when you consider the teams we beat in that run. You just can't fluke seven wins in a row, a manager must be doing something right even if it's only to a level of 3rd/4th rather than 1st/2nd.
Before last season I don't remember him being fit for 9 months?

I genuinely though we were awful last season, as someone mentioned even after going above Spurs we kept dropping points and somehow none of the other teams managed to take advantage.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Before last season I don't remember him being fit for 9 months?

I genuinely though we were awful last season, as someone mentioned even after going above Spurs we kept dropping points and somehow none of the other teams managed to take advantage.

From about December 2010 to November 2011 (exluding summer months off) would be enough to tell you if it's a sign RVP may have got over what problems he had encountered in the past - enough to show whether Wenger absolutely needs to buy someone as a back-up in January to him. In any case someone probably would've stepped up anyway, they always do. Hence how we were able to attain the same level when RVP had been injured. Or when Cesc had been injured. Or whoever it might be at any particular time.

In reference to you mentioning Global's post, we dropped points after going above Tottenham yes but it wasn't five defeats in eight, it was five games where we dropped points out of eight. Plus we actually won three out of four after initially going above them.

[Özim]

From about December 2010 to November 2011 (exluding summer months off) would be enough to tell you if it's a sign RVP may have got over what problems he had encountered in the past - enough to show whether Wenger absolutely needs to buy someone as a back-up in January to him. In any case someone probably would've stepped up anyway, they always do. Hence how we were able to attain the same level when RVP had been injured. Or when Cesc had been injured. Or whoever it might be at any particular time.

In reference to you mentioning Global's post, we dropped points after going above Tottenham yes but it wasn't five defeats in eight, it was five games where we dropped points out of eight. Plus we actually won three out of four after initially going above them.
I thought he was injured for a big chunk of the season in 2010-2011:


He ended the season just two goals behind joint league top scorers, Carlos Tévez and Dimitar Berbatov in the race for the golden boot, despite being injured for half of the season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_van_Persie

[McNamara That Ghost...]

He was, that's why I said December 2010. He was around from then onwards.

[Özim]

He was, that's why I said December 2010. He was around from then onwards.
Yeah but if he missed half the season then I don't think that's enough to prove he'll stay fit, especially when he was out for another couple weeks in the time you mention and had a horrendous record before then. On that basis I stand by my point about expecting him to be fit based on hope rather than reality.

[Kano]

Last season I meant we were lucky to get above Spurs (Chelsea were awful until Di Matteo took over), so I should have said lucky to get 3rd.
spurs were only a point behind, so all that luck didn't seem to help that much.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yeah but if he missed half the season then I don't think that's enough to prove he'll stay fit, especially when he was out for another couple weeks in the time you mention and had a horrendous record before then. On that basis I stand by my point about expecting him to be fit based on hope rather than reality.

:blink:

I said judging from December 2010 up until November 2011, that's a big enough timeframe to see. Especially when he had made a change, the change being of doing his own training and being less prone to getting involved with challenges he doesn't need to make.

[Özim]

spurs were only a point behind, so all that luck didn't seem to help that much.
It helped us get 3rd and a CL spot, that's quite a big difference, especially when we were miles behind them at one point.

[Özim]

:blink:

I said judging from December 2010 up until November 2011, that's a big enough timeframe to see. Especially when he had made a change, the change being of doing his own training and being less prone to getting involved with challenges he doesn't need to make.
But seeing as the transfer window is in the summer it's only December 2010 to May 2011 and maybe part of August (and in that period he did get injured), if you're going to sign someone then you'd sign cover/a replacement in the summer and thus the period from September to November doesn't really apply.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

But seeing as the transfer window is in the summer it's only December 2010 to May 2011 and maybe part of August (and in that period he did get injured), if you're going to sign someone then you'd sign cover/a replacement in the summer and thus the period from September to November doesn't really apply.

Nearly every player gets a small injury over the course of a year, in RVP's case as I mentioned it had been the impact injuries he has usually suffered from that kept him out for long periods of time.

And of course it applies, during the summer he would have had that whole time in the off-season to build up the new regime he was on and any manager would notice he is stronger because of it ("I know when a player is in the red zone"). Perhaps rather than looking for luck or unluck you should be asking whether it was a good decision or bad decision.

[Özim]

Nearly every player gets a small injury over the course of a year, in RVP's case as I mentioned it had been the impact injuries he has usually suffered from that kept him out for long periods of time.

And of course it applies, during the summer he would have had that whole time in the off-season to build up the new regime he was on and any manager would notice he is stronger because of it ("I know when a player is in the red zone"). Perhaps rather than looking for luck or unluck you should be asking whether it was a good decision or bad decision.
You say that but look how much he's been injured, I don't think you can look at his injury record and just say he's been unlucky for x amount of years to be honest....he's clearly more prone to injury than many others.

Why would it apply, if you're going to sign a replacement or cover that will only happen in the summer, thus we'd have to either decide he's going to stay fit in August or sign someone else....after this period we're stuck with our decision. As for the noticing something is different, I don't think you can tell that easily, especially not with a player who has had so many injuries, surely Wenger thought the same before every season when he failed to sign a replacement for him?

I don't really think anyone would have been willing to bet RVP was going to stay fit all season with any great conviction, how could you after his injury record....it would be like expecting Diaby to be fit for a whole season just because he manages to stay fit for 4 months.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well how come he hasn't had a serious injury for so long then? It must be because of the changes he belatedly made - it happens. It happened with Djokovic when he made changes and it happened with Messi when he made changes too.

We'd already spent money on forwards in the Summer (£30 million or so), if we were that desperate for another striker there is always another opportunity in January.

And who cares what anybody said on here or in the media? We get things wrong all the time. We aren't privvy to all the information (although I didn't think he would break down, based on the fact it hadn't happen for a long time). Saying you'd expect Diaby to be fit for a whole season is disingenuous because they don't have the same physiology and they haven't had the same injury problems. Diaby can't avoid using long strides putting strain on his hamstrings because that is the player he is, RVP can stay away from making stupid decisions on going in for challenges because he is a striker and at that same time build-up his strength whilst doing that.

[Özim]

Well how come he hasn't had a serious injury for so long then? It must be because of the changes he belatedly made - it happens. It happened with Djokovic when he made changes and it happened with Messi when he made changes too.

We'd already spent money on forwards in the Summer (£30 million or so), if we were that desperate for another striker there is always another opportunity in January.

And who cares what anybody said on here or in the media? We get things wrong all the time. We aren't privvy to all the information (although I didn't think he would break down, based on the fact it hadn't happen for a long time). Saying you'd expect Diaby to be fit for a whole season is disingenuous because they don't have the same physiology and they haven't had the same injury problems. Diaby can't avoid using long strides putting strain on his hamstrings because that is the player he is, RVP can stay away from making stupid decisions on going in for challenges because he is a striker and at that same time build-up his strength whilst doing that.
That isn't the point really, the point was were we in a position to assume he'd stay fit in August 2011? I'd say no.

Waiting for January is all very good but by then you're already half way through the season, in addition the players you want aren't usually available then so it would be foolish to wait till then.

Like I said though you can't just put RVP's injuries down to bad luck, the work he's done in recent times might have helped the injuries a lot, but clearly before this something was being done wrong meaning he was less likely to stay fit.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That isn't the point really, the point was were we in a position to assume he'd stay fit in August 2011? I'd say no.

Waiting for January is all very good but by then you're already half way through the season, in addition the players you want aren't usually available then so it would be foolish to wait till then.

Like I said though you can't just put RVP's injuries down to bad luck, the work he's done in recent times might have helped the injuries a lot, but clearly before this something was being done wrong meaning he was less likely to stay fit.

It is the point because you are armed with extra knowledge now as to whether it was the throw darts at the wall decison you seem to make it out to be.

It's not about 'waiting' until then, it's about using that time, if it's needed.

I'm not putting it down to bad luck, I've already mentioned that talking about luck or unluck is fruitless and you're admitting that too by saying I can't put something down to bad luck. You say clearly something was being done wrong which is exactly my point - he made the change and has since been doing the right things. It's no surprise that his 'fortune' has changed since.

[Kano]

It helped us get 3rd and a CL spot, that's quite a big difference, especially when we were miles behind them at one point.
you said a couple posts back we were lucky to get 3rd, not lucky to get a top four spot, after saying we were the best of the rest. i'm not sure i follow your point anymore, its moving all over the place.

[Özim]

It is the point because you are armed with extra knowledge now as to whether it was the throw darts at the wall decison you seem to make it out to be.

It's not about 'waiting' until then, it's about using that time, if it's needed.

I'm not putting it down to bad luck, I've already mentioned that talking about luck or unluck is fruitless and you're admitting that too by saying I can't put something down to bad luck. You say clearly something was being done wrong which is exactly my point - he made the change and has since been doing the right things. It's no surprise that his 'fortune' has changed since.
Well yes you have some extra knowledge, but it's hardly conclusive when the period is relatively short, you're still taking a big risk.

You say that but then why don't we replace Rosicky and Diaby, we clearly need to....I suggest that Wenger is assuming they'll be fit just like he did with RVP, there can be no other reasoning behind it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's unlikely we'll be able to sell players that often get injuries, being released is the only likely option, unless things change. In Rosicky's and Diaby's case (for the millionth time) their injuries are mainly related to muscles, RVP's were impact injuries on different parts of his body. The other two have the same injuries again and again making it harder for them to make that change that RVP could to benefit them.

[fakeyank]

It's unlikely we'll be able to sell players that often get injuries, being released is the only likely option, unless things change. In Rosicky's and Diaby's case (for the millionth time) their injuries are mainly related to muscles, RVP's were impact injuries on different parts of his body. The other two have the same injuries again and again making it harder for them to make that change that RVP could to benefit them.

I do not understand why we offered Rosicky a new contract. Thats probably the dumbest thing done by the douche bags in our club this year.

[Toronto Gooner]

As for those above us not performing to last seasons standard, we are over 10 points behind the top 2 so it's scant consolation.

Interestingly, Arsenal were 10 points behind 2nd and 12 points behind 1st, this time last season.

[Toronto Gooner]

I think this is because the overall level of quality in the EPL has been declining and it is pretty much heading in the opposite direction to the level of money pumped in to fund the product we now watch.

And the product is by and large boring, unwatchable dirge.

If we were paying the players of the past along the same lines the players of today earn, the likes of Vieira, Henry and Bergkamp could legitimately command £500k a week.
Completely agree with this. When compared to the football coming out of Germany, the EPL is a pale imitation.

[Cripps_orig]

Interestingly, Arsenal were 10 points behind 2nd and 12 points behind 1st, this time last season.So what you are saying is that we were little bit shit last season and just as shit this?

[Özim]

So what you are saying is that we were little bit shit last season and just as shit this?
It is true we were sh*t last season, we've been sh*t for quite while tbf.

[Toronto Gooner]

To follow up on my initial post: Arsenal remain 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd, but are now just 2 points with a better goal difference off 4th.

People may dismiss getting 4th but it is still a measure of consistency and success that cannot be ignored. The next 5 games could be very significant, with West Ham in the sequence.


Reading


Wigan Athletic


West Ham


Newcastle


Southampton

[GP]

13 points from that lot.

[Toronto Gooner]

Agreed. The problem is that 3 of them are away games. In fact Arsenal play away in 5 of their next 7 league games.

[Marc Overmars]

I prefer away games anyway, the Emirates is not the fortress it should be.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

13 points from that lot.

Lads put in an on par performance with yesterday's, coupled with better finishing, I see no reason why it can't be 15 points.

[Syn]

We couldn't adapt to some away pitches. When we looked to pass it about properly, with the cold, rainy conditions with bobbles and shit, it was more difficult. These days it's hoof to Giroud time from the 1st minute so shouldn't be too much of an issue.

That said, I doubt we'll get 13 points. We'll do well to get double figures. I think 8 points.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Luck.......is this what Wengerism is now distilled to?. We were not the 3rd best team last season. The 3rd best team (Chelsea) had a perfect storm that they brought about themselves with manager mismanagement by the owner. The 4th best team...(Tiny Totts) keelhauled themselves (as usual) and we. 5/6th best, stumbled in on the last day. Where we got lucky was having an opposition keeper on the final day who played as if Wenger had handed him a sackful of 50 pound notes the night before. Does any one remember the absolutely diabolical run we were on right after overtaking the spuds I think 5 defeats in 8, we did everything possible to throw it away.
I said it loud and clear before a ball was even kicked this season. When in the summer the usual sycophants were busy slapping themselves on the back and blowing kisses to AW posters-“ we were not and have not been the third best team in this Land for ages now and finishing third (particularly above Chelsea with 2 real trophies) meant nothing more than the CL spot it secured"; end of.

Then they rolled out tired clichés and developed theories that would make an American soccer fan blush- but when the season started they all went back into the woodwork.

If you can't call finishing above your betters luck (especially when you consider all the circumstances that came into play), I wonder what the f*ck it is

[Xhaka Can’t]

Be sure to give yourself a great big pat on the back.

[GP]

We were the 3rd best team in the league last season.

But not across all competitions.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We were the 3rd best team last season.

In the league, yes.

Across all four competitions, no.

[GP]

That's what I said.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

And for context Chelsea have bombed out of the CL group stage yet are above us in the league so where does the truth lie? Probably somewhere in the middle I suspect.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And for context Chelsea have bombed out of the CL group stage yet are above us in the league so where does the truth lie? Probably somewhere in the middle I suspect.

They have played much better football than us this season imo.

[Kano]

I said it loud and clear before a ball was even kicked this season. When in the summer the usual sycophants were busy slapping themselves on the back and blowing kisses to AW posters-“ we were not and have not been the third best team in this Land for ages now and finishing third (particularly above Chelsea with 2 real trophies) meant nothing more than the CL spot it secured"; end of.

Then they rolled out tired clichés and developed theories that would make an American soccer fan blush- but when the season started they all went back into the woodwork.

If you can't call finishing above your betters luck (especially when you consider all the circumstances that came into play), I wonder what the f*ck it is
wow, thank god you were there in the summer to tell everyone. and you came back to tell us more.

now that is lucky for us.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Maybe Chelsea have but that's merely aesthetics, which as we know doesn't mean everything, or anything.

[Kano]

To follow up on my initial post: Arsenal remain 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd, but are now just 2 points with a better goal difference off 4th.

People may dismiss getting 4th but it is still a measure of consistency and success that cannot be ignored. The next 5 games could be very significant, with West Ham in the sequence.


Reading


Wigan Athletic


West Ham


Newcastle


Southampton


at least 20 points

[Xhaka Can’t]

Maybe Chelsea have but that's merely aesthetics, which as we know doesn't mean everything, or anything.

It does when you're making love to a beautiful woman.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It does when you're making love to a beautiful woman.

This is why turning off the lights doesn't make any sense!

[Marc Overmars]

Chelsea. :lol:

Biggest fluke in football history.

[IBK]

Be sure to give yourself a great big pat on the back.

:lol:

[fakeyank]

Lads put in an on par performance with yesterday's, coupled with better finishing, I see no reason why it can't be 15 points.

What have you been smoking? U live in Washington State where they legalize the good stuff??

Or

Do you have a time machine and think its 2004?

I need whatever you got there to be so out of touch with what's going on!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Be sure to give yourself a great big pat on the back.

:lol:

Charlie the sycophant :coffee:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

What have you been smoking? U live in Washington State where they legalize the good stuff??

Or

Do you have a time machine and think its 2004?

I need whatever you got there to be so out of touch with what's going on!

Nothing of the sort.

I'm just overly optimistic at times.

Plus we're due a run and what better time than now when we finally showed we could play a little footie.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Nothing of the sort.

I'm just overly optimistic at times.

Plus we're due a run and what better time than now when we finally showed we could play a little footie.

Fake yank :haha:

Real yank :bow:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Fake yank :haha:

Real yardie :bow:

Fixed at no cost :lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Fake yank :haha:

Real yank :bow:

:haha:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Fixed at no cost :lol:

:lol:

Yardie's :bow:

What part of yardie land you from then.

[fakeyank]

Nothing of the sort.

I'm just overly optimistic at times.

Plus we're due a run and what better time than now when we finally showed we could play a little footie.

I understand being optimistic but 15 points out of 15 is plain unrealistic.. plus I do not see any reason realistically to think like that based on any performances we had this season so far. 'Finally showed we could play a little footie'? I do not understand where this is coming from really.. is it based on the West Brom win which was a good win but where we had to break a deadlock based on an awesome dive by Cazorla? A win is a win so I am not going to go too much into detail as to how we do not even look a pale shadow of a side representing Arsenal Football Club but there is no way we can manager all those points just based on one performance!

Dont get me wrong.. I hope you are freaking correct but chances are you will be super disappointed coz from what we have seen thus far, getting double digits out of 15 points would be close to a miracle!

[fakeyank]

Fixed at no cost :lol:

Yardie?! U definitely are smoking some good Bob Marley's.. pass that dutch bro!

[Marc Overmars]

We've only won back to back games once this season, that was at the start of September. 15 points on paper looks attainable but we all know it rarely works out like that. We don't hammer teams like we used to these days, wins are a lot more narrower and harder to come by.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Yardie?! U definitely are smoking some good Bob Marley's.. pass that dutch bro!

Stereotypes :bow:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Stereotypes :bow:

:lol:

So what part you from?

[Özil's Panoramic View]

:lol:

Yardie's :bow:

What part of yardie land you from then.

From the western parts

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I understand being optimistic but 15 points out of 15 is plain unrealistic.. plus I do not see any reason realistically to think like that based on any performances we had this season so far. 'Finally showed we could play a little footie'? I do not understand where this is coming from really.. is it based on the West Brom win which was a good win but where we had to break a deadlock based on an awesome dive by Cazorla? A win is a win so I am not going to go too much into detail as to how we do not even look a pale shadow of a side representing Arsenal Football Club but there is no way we can manager all those points just based on one performance!

Dont get me wrong.. I hope you are freaking correct but chances are you will be super disappointed coz from what we have seen thus far, getting double digits out of 15 points would be close to a miracle!

Ok. But I think you took my post way too serious.

[Cripps_orig]

No chance of winning 5 games in a row. We might win a couple and draw another. And that's if we are lucky

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Ok. But I think you took my post way too serious.

:lol:

shisha smokers :bow:

Fale yanks :bow:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

And for context Chelsea have bombed out of the CL group stage

Which is why WE all know that even if we signed Zeus this January (with thunderbolts being allowed) this AW's Arsenal (and last years one and the year before that.... blah blah) has no chance of finishing above even a schizophrenic Chelsea. Its the same way we all knew if not for Harry being Harry (i.e. being easier to flatter than a fillipino 14 year old), the Spuds would have deservedly finished above us last season.




And for context Chelsea have bombed out of the CL group stage yet are above us in the league so where does the truth lie? Probably somewhere in the middle I suspect.

No it doesn't, the truth remains the truth. Seriously, you lot really do my head in- I remember you Maccy going on for years about how we seem never to be able to finish above the Chavs with all their different managers and the rest of you crying daily how we can't compete with that kind of money. Then last season we finish above them (despite Chelsea still outspending us) and instead of you lot to be consistent and say it was probably a fluke, we were helped by the fact that we crashed out of all competitons early or that the league table doesn't tell the whole story- or honourably admit that you have always been wrong about money being the main reason we can't compete-you eat your cake and have it, do a song and dance and celebrate 2 irrelevant months where we are supposedly the third best team in the country. WTF!!! Do you guys really want me to bring back the old posts?? Where last season most of you accepeted we wouldn't finish above spuds, where everybody thought we'd be in shitcreek when RVP would get his annual injury in January or when in the summer we all suspected that AW making those early signings meant we were going to have serious outgoings??

I just don't get it- you all know the truth, you say it most of the time but then you get pissed off when the only guy who's doesn't flip-flop and says it in his usual dour way utters a word. Most of the time you dimiss his views with flippant arrogance when he's been the one that has been right the majority of the time since the inception of this forum (old and new). I mean most of you tow the company line, playing it safe like fans tend to do, while he's always been known for unbelievably unpopular but true declarations like "we will never win a thing again under this manager" "this player won't make it(even before he's kicked a ball for us!)" and so on. I don't think there is anyone of us who'd like to be the uncool kid in class for so long, but he does it over and over again providing something you lot can never seem to value-BALANCE- something we old 606ers cherished so much before those idiots hijacked that board. AFAIC you lot should be sucking him off, or at least if you can't stand his sourness (like I accept most gooners who didn't know him would find it hard to), I'd expect that after six years you would have learnt how to live with it by ignoring but still respecting it. There is no need to undermine him with pettiness (GB especially nowadays); debate him or ignore him with the respect a gooner deserves- so I can go back to staying silent.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sorry but this is an Internet forum. And a fan site at that. Fighting and taking the piss is at least 50% of the game. Debate is good every now and again but who the fuck wants a dedicated debating society? Everyone would piss off if that happened or was enforced. This is a pub not a lecture theatre. And because we're fans we can be wrong yesterday and not admit it today, it's allowed. It's just as much fun, if not more, to jump on every now and then and post shit as it is to engage in the detailed debate than probably nobody reads anyway. GW is a consumer item, snort it don't study it. There are posters on here who like to wind people up. It's a laugh. But they have to take the shit that comes with it, that's the other side of the coin. It's not personal, it's just GW FFS! Take Joker, for instance. He's a city fan so he gets a bit of stick. It's all fair game. Life out there is shit enough as it is. I like GW because you can have a punch up and then a laugh. I'd post with those ****s on the Guardian football section if I wanted to be all serious about it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Which is why WE all know that even if we signed Zeus this January (with thunderbolts being allowed) this AW's Arsenal (and last years one and the year before that.... blah blah) has no chance of finishing above even a schizophrenic Chelsea. Its the same way we all knew if not for Harry being Harry (i.e. being easier to flatter than a fillipino 14 year old), the Spuds would have deservedly finished above us last season.




No it doesn't, the truth remains the truth. Seriously, you lot really do my head in- I remember you Maccy going on for years about how we seem never to be able to finish above the Chavs with all their different managers and the rest of you crying daily how we can't compete with that kind of money. Then last season we finish above them (despite Chelsea still outspending us) and instead of you lot to be consistent and say it was probably a fluke, we were helped by the fact that we crashed out of all competitons early or that the league table doesn't tell the whole story- or honourably admit that you have always been wrong about money being the main reason we can't compete-you eat your cake and have it, do a song and dance and celebrate 2 irrelevant months where we are supposedly the third best team in the country. WTF!!! Do you guys really want me to bring back the old posts?? Where last season most of you accepeted we wouldn't finish above spuds, where everybody thought we'd be in shitcreek when RVP would get his annual injury in January or when in the summer we all suspected that AW making those early signings meant we were going to have serious outgoings??

I just don't get it- you all know the truth, you say it most of the time but then you get pissed off when the only guy who's doesn't flip-flop and says it in his usual dour way utters a word. Most of the time you dimiss his views with flippant arrogance when he's been the one that has been right the majority of the time since the inception of this forum (old and new). I mean most of you tow the company line, playing it safe like fans tend to do, while he's always been known for unbelievably unpopular but true declarations like "we will never win a thing again under this manager" "this player won't make it(even before he's kicked a ball for us!)" and so on. I don't think there is anyone of us who'd like to be the uncool kid in class for so long, but he does it over and over again providing something you lot can never seem to value-BALANCE- something we old 606ers cherished so much before those idiots hijacked that board. AFAIC you lot should be sucking him off, or at least if you can't stand his sourness (like I accept most gooners who didn't know him would find it hard to), I'd expect that after six years you would have learnt how to live with it by ignoring but still respecting it. There is no need to undermine him with pettiness (GB especially nowadays); debate him or ignore him with the respect a gooner deserves.

Well, I don't think Chelsea are particularly great and if history tells us anything it will take them a while before they put a consistent run of results together whilst they are in this 'bad moment' and compounded with the waning influence of those that were always able to get them back up to that 80 point level, it's no coincidence to me they have progressively been falling back in the league. It's not about staying rigid and saying the same things like you seem to think I should because it has been obvious for a while Chelsea are not getting up to those kind of point levels, whereas before they were, so I said something different. It's really not difficult to understand.

In any case, it doesn't really matter what I may or may not have thought from years ago because...that was years ago. Did you think Chelsea would ever finish sixth again under Abramovich as they had done before Abramovich? Probably not. However I've been consistent over the last few seasons in saying they can't rely on those same guys forever which is what they have been doing (or rather being forced to by those same players). I've also been able to recognise they still have enough to win cup competitions, lamentably.

What truth are you talking about? I really don't get it because if it's based on them being balanced as the rest of that paragraph talks about, then how can you also say in the first paragraph they don't 'flip-flop', a balance would require noting the good and bad, wouldn't it? I'm not saying there is anything neccesarily wrong with not being 'balanced' but if that's your premise then your defence is being formulated in completely the wrong way.

You can bring up old posts from an age gone by if you want but I don't think the majority will really care.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

*phew*

Tired as fuqq

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Sorry but this is an Internet forum. And a fan site at that. Fighting and taking the piss is at least 50% of the game. Debate is good every now and again but who the fuck wants a dedicated debating society? Everyone would piss off if that happened or was enforced. This is a pub not a lecture theatre. And because we're fans we can be wrong yesterday and not admit it today, it's allowed. It's just as much fun, if not more, to jump on every now and then and post shit as it is to engage in the detailed debate than probably nobody reads anyway. GW is a consumer item, snort it don't study it. There are posters on here who like to wind people up. It's a laugh. But they have to take the shit that comes with it, that's the other side of the coin. It's not personal, it's just GW FFS! Take Joker, for instance. He's a city fan so he gets a bit of stick. It's all fair game. Life out there is shit enough as it is. I like GW because you can have a punch up and then a laugh. I'd post with those ****s on the Guardian football section if I wanted to be all serious about it.

:gp:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Give me a break.

It is not pettiness to be balanced. It takes a hell of a lot more to look at and accept things that don't accord with your world view. Not everything will support your position and you should not need to make up shit to support your position. It is extremely rare for anyt situation to be totally black or totally white and accepting that there are a multitude of shades between black and white and subsequently arriving at your world view actually provides you with a more solid base for your opinion.

Cherrypicking people's posts and ignoring the crux of what they are saying is the main reason people will get pulled up here. That, and foolish statements such as:


I said it loud and clear before a ball was even kicked this season. When in the summer the usual sycophants... really ought to be treated with the contempt they deserve.

[Kano]

lol gunner salute had a melt down lolz

[GP]

Just say Zimm, we all know its him your talking about.

Was that who he meant? :lol:

How's Aliadiere doing these days?

[Joker]

Most of Zim's calls about our squad, manager, board etc since we were on the old board have been spot on.

[Kano]

i'm not sure why everyone feels the need to pat themselves on the back for predicting such dour times at our club. so what if a lot of people didn't agree. what do you get for being right?

[LDG]

:haha:

[Joker]

It doesn't really matter if you're right or wrong, but it is true that he was hounded a lot on both on the old board and this, for opinions which were being treated as extreme or WUMMish, but which have since been proven to be right.

Everyone should be entitled to an opinion, and the accusation of "WUM" is banded about too easily at times, aimed especially at opinions which are "unpopular" even though they are valid.

[GP]

It doesn't really matter if you're right or wrong, but it is true that he was hounded a lot on both on the old board and this, for opinions which were being treated as extreme or WUMMish, but which have since been proven to be right.

Everyone should be entitled to an opinion, and the accusation of "WUM" is banded about too easily at times, aimed especially at opinions which are "unpopular" even though they are valid.

No.

He was more often than not wrong, and has a habit of making shit up to support a bullshit argument.

Much like yourself.

[LDG]

EDIT: @Joker

Oh, shut up you old woman.

Zimm hasn't been proved "right" or "wrong", it's just an opinion, which people can agree or disagree with if they want.

There isn't much room for personal insults, I agree. Though, I think most of it is banter anyway. I'm sure he doesn't take it personally. And if he does, then more fool him.

Now shut up you tarts.

[Joker]

No.

He was more often than not wrong, and has a habit of making shit up to support a bullshit argument.

Much like yourself.

Well I disagree that he was more often wrong than right (he was spot on about Reyes failing, us not winning another trophy under Wenger, the board's greed etc) but even putting that aside, I can't remember him making anything up to support his argument.

[GP]

Well I disagree that he was more often wrong than right (he was spot on about Reyes failing, us not winning another trophy under Wenger, the board's greed etc) but even putting that aside, I can't remember him making anything up to support his argument.

Then you should read his posts more carefully. Or at all.
It's his trademark.

[Kano]

It doesn't really matter if you're right or wrong, but it is true that he was hounded a lot on both on the old board and this, for opinions which were being treated as extreme or WUMMish, but which have since been proven to be right.
hounded? it's a fucking messsage board!

[Özim]

WTF? Who deleted my post?

So stating the truth is a crime around here now?

[Letters]

Just stop all the handbags. All of you.
:rolleyes: