Match Reaction v Wigan

[Xhaka Can’t]

If the fourth CL place went to the winners of the FA Cup, we'd have a far better chance of winning a trophy.

[Ollie the Optimist]

the invincibles side was built by wenger. too say otherwise is just stupid and belitting of his achievement. the only players in that side who was here before wenger was parlour and bergkamp (but he only for about 2 months), keown only just got his winners medal by making sub appearences in the final 30 seconds of the last 5 games. to say he didnt build that side is stupid, and shows how much people hate him that they can't give him credit for building the greatest team the premiership has ever seen because he built it, he won it, and he won it unbeaten. there is a reason why they were voted best team in the premiership 20 years, and it was because of wenger

[Xhaka Can’t]

We haven't had an unbeaten season since Pat Rice left.

[Marc Overmars]

If the fourth CL place went to the winners of the FA Cup, we'd have a far better chance of winning a trophy.

I don't think I'd like that to happen because the FA Cup is (was?) a great trophy and cup final days are very special. I'd rather celebrate it for the occasion itself rather than it gaining us entry into a competition that only serves to line the pockets of the club.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

the invincibles side was built by wenger. too say otherwise is just stupid and belitting of his achievement. the only players in that side who was here before wenger was parlour and bergkamp (but he only for about 2 months), keown only just got his winners medal by making sub appearences in the final 30 seconds of the last 5 games. to say he didnt build that side is stupid, and shows how much people hate him that they can't give him credit for building the greatest team the premiership has ever seen because he built it, he won it, and he won it unbeaten. there is a reason why they were voted best team in the premiership 20 years, and it was because of wenger

:haha: thought this was going to be an actual rebuttal of me saying Wenger has never single built a title winning team in its entirety (operative word here), until I read the emboldened.

And you are pretty much lying about Dennis only being here for 2 months before Wenger (though it doesn't matter really, be it a day or month or whichever), as he did join around the middle of 95 whils Wenger came here in 96.

Anyway, despite your condescending attempt, my point still stands - Wenger never did entirely (once again, operative word here for those who are doctorate level at misconstueing post) build a title winning team with only players he brought in. He's been at it since 05 or 06; I'd say time is running out on him, and at a brisk pace too.

[Letters]

And as GB pointed out, pretty no manager has done that. Mourinho certainly didn't. Does that nullify his achievements?
What's your point?

[Özil's Panoramic View]

When you manage a club for so long, you are going to be required to do such in order to win (an actual title/trophy ie). That's my point.

[Joker]

:haha: thought this was going to be an actual rebuttal of me saying Wenger has never single built a title winning team in its entirety (operative word here), until I read the emboldened.

And you are pretty much lying about Dennis only being here for 2 months before Wenger (though it doesn't matter really, be it a day or month or whichever), as he did join around the middle of 95 whils Wenger came here in 96.

Anyway, despite your condescending attempt, my point still stands - Wenger never did entirely (once again, operative word here for those who are doctorate level at misconstueing post) build a title winning team with only players he brought in. He's been at it since 05 or 06; I'd say time is running out on him, and at a brisk pace too.

I don't think he's capable tbh. He's tried on multiple occasions and has always fallen predictably short. The 07-08 was when he came closest, but even then we collapsed at the end, as did the 09-10/10-11 squads. No one's denying that he did a great job winning us the League and Cups (although I wouldn't say the Invincibles was the best Premiership side ever, that should go to the treble winning Utd squad of 1998-1999) but the true mark of a great manager has to be the ability to win back to back titles. Even when we had fantastic footballers, Wenger was never able to achieve that. After winning the league in 1997-1998, Utd went on a run of 3 consecutive titles. After 2001-2002, Utd pipped us at the end of the next season, despite us having a superior squad quality wise. After 2003-2004, Chelsea walked home with the title the next year.

[Letters]

The idea that Bergkamp already being there means it wasn't Wenger's team is reaching.
He was a great player of course but had he not been surrounded by a lot of other great players, all bought and developed by Wenger, that team wouldn't have been anywhere near as good.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

And why are people trying to misrepresent my arguments by making it seem that I was questioning Wengers greatness or achievements. All I did was point out the obvious.

Folks have even started mentioning Mourinho who's never stayed at any one club for any considerable amount of time, where he'd be required to build a title winning team by himself.

[Letters]

the true mark of a great manager has to be the ability to win back to back titles.
I agree with this actually. One of Wenger's failings back in the day was resting on his laurels when he had a title winning side. Fergie never does that, he always looks to improve and push on. We should have won three in a row by winning it in 2003, we were 5 points clear with 9 games left that year and then went on a poor run which messed it up.

[Letters]

And why are people trying to misrepresent my arguments by making it seem that I was questioning Wengers greatness or achievements. All I did was point out an obvious.

Folks have even started mentioning Mourinho who's never stayed at any one club for any considerable amount of time, where he'd be required to build a title winning team by himself.
I just don't see what you're getting at. Unless you're trying to belittle Wenger's achievements what point are you making?

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I just don't see what you're getting at. Unless you're trying to belittle Wenger's achievements what point are you making?

Seems you missed reply 257.

[Joker]

I agree with this actually. One of Wenger's failings back in the day was resting on his laurels when he had a title winning side. Fergie never does that, he always looks to improve and push on. We should have won three in a row by winning it in 2003, we were 5 points clear with 9 games left that year and then went on a poor run which messed it up.

Definitely should have been 3 back to back titles from 01-04, we were head and shoulders above Utd at that time.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

They always had big players that came to the fore for the big 6 point head to head games, like Webb.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And why are people trying to misrepresent my arguments by making it seem that I was questioning Wengers greatness or achievements. All I did was point out the obvious.

Folks have even started mentioning Mourinho who's never stayed at any one club for any considerable amount of time, where he'd be required to build a title winning team by himself.

All I'm saying is that the number of managers that have met your criteria anywhere are miniscule. Clubs are organic and teams evolve and Wenger certainly took what existed before he joined onto a level not seen at Arsenal since the 30s.

[Letters]

Seems you missed reply 257.
No, I saw it. But the 2004 team was Wenger's pretty much in its entirety.
No manager would have kicked out a player like Bergkamp so the team was entirely 'his' just to prove a point.
As GB says all teams evolve and managers are rarely at a club long enough that the teams are entirely theirs. That doesn't diminish their achievements.

If you really want to knock Wenger's achievements (and I'm not sure why any Arsenal fan would want to) then the failure to retain a title is far more damning than the fact that the Invincibles had one (significant) pre-Wenger player in.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

All I'm saying is that the number of managers that have met your criteria anywhere are miniscule. Clubs are organic and teams evolve and Wenger certainly took what existed before he joined onto a level not seen at Arsenal since the 30s.

I agree. And I'm in no way disputing Wenger's achievement. But remember that very view managers come remotely close to staying at a big club for so long. Only he and SAF from recent memory and we all know how that story goes.

And I especially like your point about clubs evolving. Even more fuel for us who think Wenger's scope of the game has been blurred for a few season now. How else could he have been able to take what he inherited, and build on it to much success, but then unable to build on what he then accomplished?

[Özil's Panoramic View]

No, I saw it. But the 2004 team was Wenger's pretty much in its entirety.
No manager would have kicked out a player like Bergkamp so the team was entirely 'his' just to prove a point.
As GB says all teams evolve and managers are rarely at a club long enough that the teams are entirely theirs. That doesn't diminish their achievements.

If you really want to knock Wenger's achievements (and I'm not sure why any Arsenal fan would want to) then the failure to retain a title is far more damning than the fact that the Invincibles had one (significant) pre-Wenger player in.

Again, I'm not trying to diminish his achievement. I'm just pointing to a reason (which I thought was obvious, and was I wrong) why I think he won't win another title. Since when does this fall into belittling/underming his achievements category?

[Letters]

Again, I'm not trying to diminish his achievement. I'm just pointing to a reason (which I thought was obvious, and was I wrong) why I think he won't win another title. Since when does this fall into belittling/underming his achievements category?
Fair enough, although I don't think that a correct reason. IMO we didn't with titles back in the day because of the players Wenger inherited, he inherited a decent side but not one who looked like seriously challenging for the title and made them champions. He then built a side which was one of the best footballing sides I've ever seen and only had one significant pre-Wenger player in it. Obviously Bergkamp was very significant but he's hardly going to get rid of someone like that to prove a point. It was Wenger's side.

We won't win another title under Wenger because Wenger's successes were built on the following things:

a) Training methods and fitness regimes - Wenger took over in an era when clubs still had drinking schools, Wenger took us to a new level of fitness and sobriety which meant we were fitter than most clubs. Other clubs have caught up.

b) He had a knowledge of the European game which most managers didn't. Not many people had heard of Vieira, for exampl. Again, other clubs have caught on and all have worldwide scouting networks now which means we don't have that edge.

And this was all before the billionaire owner. We could pick up top players for a few million and didn't have to pay ridiculous wages. You didn't have billionaire-fueled clubs doubling any price we might offer and offering players ridiculous wages.

People lament how Wenger has changed. I lament that he HASN'T changed while all around him has. He's not suddenly this clueless idiot, we've finished top 4 every year and you don't do that without having some nous. But the footballing world has moved on. Clubs have caught up and in some cases over-taken. It's harder to win the title than it used to be, ManYoo were only close to City last year because Fergie is a genius. By rights no-one should be able to compete with a team who can throw money around like City can. I don't think we'll win the title under Wenger again but I find it hard to believe we'd win it under anyone else either with clubs like City around. My real problem with Wenger now is that we should be much closer. We might not have the resources to win the title but we shouldn't be this far away either and that (along with the lack of trophies for so long when we've had several chances to land one in that time) is where he's failed.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Good points. I do not, however, subscribe to the notion that we couldn't compete or win the title since the introduction of petro billions. The Mancs have done it repeatedly without breaking bank; though people will quickly point out that they have the genius SAF, but Wenger used to be hailed as such too, right? At what point was he no longer a genius? Was it when it became convenient to his faithful legion?

Last season, we closed in on Spurs from 10 points adrift and overtook them. At this point we were 10 points adrift of City and then we began to stagnate, drawing and losing to pubbers, thereby allowing them and the Mancs to pull comfortably away. Why is it we can press for 3rd/4th when required, but not for the ultimate placing? it is after all a CL spot too.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

So its Deins fault now that Wenger has lost his desire to win?. Poor him. Ha`snt stopped Wumger upping his take home pay after each successive season of failure. Dearie me!. These AKB`s . What will they think of next to excuse the great Messiah. I think we should get our CEO to lobby hard to get the EPL make an official trophy for 4th place. That should shut up all the Wenger detractors.

No its not Dein's fault, however he was the one Wenger seemed to listen to, Since he has gone its clear Wenger has become more stubborn and seems won't listen to anyone. If Dein came back he'd give Wenger that push he needs.

[Cripps_orig]

Dont think too highly of Dein but he has to be better than Gazidis so Must Get

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Definitely should have been 3 back to back titles from 01-04, we were head and shoulders above Utd at that time.

Can't disagree with this, the mentality of these teams is the same as the mentality now, only diffence is we had players who could win us the league.

I agree with this actually. One of Wenger's failings back in the day was resting on his laurels when he had a title winning side. Fergie never does that, he always looks to improve and push on. We should have won three in a row by winning it in 2003, we were 5 points clear with 9 games left that year and then went on a poor run which messed it up.

It shows alot now, with the way the team plays games, we have one good half go 2-0 up then rest and then end up losing all drawing games.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Dont think too highly of Dein but he has to be better than Gazidis so Must Get

Same actually, can't really stand the guy, but he make sure the club shows ambition rather then settle for 4th place.