This "Wenger doesn't know how to motivate players" bullshit is bullshit.

[AKBapologist]

This sums it up for me.

What Tuesday night’s loss made me realise is that I’ve totally misjudged this Arsenal side. It’s not that I believed they were world beaters, but I had been labouring under the misapprehension that they were a quality side struggling with consistency. Now I see how badly I’ve overrated them. Bayern Munich are among the best in Europe and the way they comfortably handled us on our ground is a clear measure of how far we’ve fallen from the top of European football.

Many supporters will console themselves with the knowledge that few teams in Europe could beat this Bayern side. But as far as I’m concerned, that’s an unacceptable excuse. If Arsenal expect to be taken seriously as a Champions League team, then we should have a squad that is capable of competing with whomever we draw. Being beaten by Bayern is not unforgivable. Being swatted aside with relative ease in our shiny new stadium is hard to take. And it’s hard to take because the decision has been made that this squad is strong enough as it’s currently constituted.

We have every right to expect our team to fare better than this against any opposition. Arsenal managed a draw and a win at the Emirates against arguably tougher Barcelona teams. And those results were achieved by mostly disappointing Arsenal sides. But the erosion of quality at the club seems to have well and truly caught up with us. We now find ourselves neither able to focus enough to dispatch lesser opposition, nor possessing the quality to handle the top sides. On Tuesday night we got a first hand look at what a potential Champions League winner looks like, and we saw just how far we’ve fallen from that standard.

There were so many players found wanting on Tuesday night that it hardly seems necessary to name them. Unlike disappointments of the past, there can be little argument that this was essentially our strongest XI. Left-back aside, the manager had every player to choose from and the players he chose were overmatched. It’s fair to point out that Thomas Vermaelen’s struggles deputising at left-back were a huge problem in this match. But the fact that he was the only player available for the position is every bit a crisis of our own making.

What this match made me realize is that the players we consider mediocre aren’t even that good. And the players we consider quality are mostly mediocre. In the humdrum existence of a midtable Premier League side, players like Lukas Podolski and Mikel Arteta and Per Mertesacker may seem like world-class talents. But when confronted with a truly talented opponent like Bayern, it’s easy to see that they are far from what’s required if we ever hope to be the best.

The best players are daring and confident in the face of any opposition. But most of Arsenal’s players hid from the spotlight on Tuesday night. According to opta stats tweeted by @orbinho, Mikel Arteta completed 29 passes to Per Mertesacker. All game long the midfield and defence passed the ball back and forth between one another, unsure of how to attack Bayern. We lacked the cunning, the courage and the class to do it. We failed to muster a shot on target in the first half, and only managed a goal thanks almost entirely to comical refereeing and even worse goal-keeping.
http://www.arse2mouse.com/post/43579373506

[IBK]

This sums it up for me.

http://www.arse2mouse.com/post/43579373506

Wenger signed them. Some are so-called replacements for our best players whom Wenger sold. If our best 11 are shite then its down to our manager.

[hobson's choice]

The same thing I got from the game, Bayern weren't anywhere near great, we've been spit roasted before and last night's game wasn't one of those games. Last was more embarrassing, it was an opponent, that realized they didn't have to play anywhere near their best to beat us.

And that's just sad, and what irritates some of us Arsenal fans, and former players, who have been labeled bitter, miserable, negative, etc. This is exactly what some of us were weary off, and warning would happen 3/4/5 years ago.

[LDG]

Yep. Top blog that one.

Exactly right.

Manager and Board at fault, obviously.

GB will surely shed more light on it, being a Hockey fan, but it does bare a familiar likeness to the Colorado rapids, fallen from grace that kronke owns in the US.

[fakeyank]

Yep. Top blog that one.

Exactly right.

Manager and Board at fault, obviously.

GB will surely shed more light on it, being a Hockey fan, but it does bare a familiar likeness to the Colorado rapids, fallen from grace that kronke owns in the US.

Rapids never had grace... they have been shit since the beginning! :lol:

[Kano]

Like all this ridiculous ‘laughing stock’ nonsense, this over dramatic ‘mid-table’ guff is complete and utter panty wetting. If we were midtable we’d be, well, midtable. We’ll finish where we are now. Is that great? No. is it cause for midtable mediocrity? No. a new manager could soon at least get us back into the top based on the players we have, as long we were able to be more adaptable to opposition and actually start games at the kick off.

Can wenger motivate his team properly week in, week out? No, clearly he can’t. if he was able to, we’d start games in the first minute, rather than the 46th after we are a goal or two down.

[Marc Overmars]

The fact he rarely gets a response from his players should set the alarm bells off, you'd think they would come out with a point to prove but they don't.

Mentally strong? Fighting spirit? Just buzzwords, he's not fooling anyone. We've always had a soft centre but I don't ever remember the team being as timid as it is now.

[Globalgunner]

This Sun must be very hot bullshit is bullshit. also eh?

If you dont believe the evidence of your own very eyes. How players come to us and they retrograde in technique and application. How we get beaten (regularly) by lower quality teams and smashed to bits by higher quality teams. then you dont need your eyes but should put them to final use by seeking out a hot poker and making your self an orb kebab

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Like all this ridiculous ‘laughing stock’ nonsense, this over dramatic ‘mid-table’ guff is complete and utter panty wetting. If we were midtable we’d be, well, midtable. We’ll finish where we are now. Is that great? No. is it cause for midtable mediocrity? No. a new manager could soon at least get us back into the top based on the players we have, as long we were able to be more adaptable to opposition and actually start games at the kick off.

Can wenger motivate his team properly week in, week out? No, clearly he can’t. if he was able to, we’d start games in the first minute, rather than the 46th after we are a goal or two down.

:gp:

There was a chance to light a fire under the butts of the likes of Diaby in January. . .there was a chance to show the freeboaters that their place is not guaranteed. . .the only way we seem to do that is send people out on loan rather than bring anyone in.

The argument is keep the money for Wengers replacement but that probably isnt happening. . .

[Xhaka Can’t]

Rapids never had grace... they have been shit since the beginning! :lol:

He means Colorado Avalanche. I nearly posted Rapids by mistake myself.

The Avs were an awlsome side worn down year after year under Cranky's stewardship.

That said, even under this ownership, the money that has been spent has largely been wasted.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a hard balance, on one hand the players don't look like they are putting 100% on the field, they look leaderless and disorganised...on the other hand this is the poorest Arsenal team in terms of quality for twenty years and I think it would be hard for any manager to markedly improve our league standing

[Özim]

Wenger has never been a motivator, when we've needed a result badly when we've been under pressure we've never come out of the blocks with all guns blazing. Seeing your team come out closing down every opposition player and chasing every ball when a match starts shows they are up for it, all we seem to do is start games like we always do, without a care in the world.

If you're playing superior opposition, you've got to make it as hard as you can for them tactically, close them down to give them as little space as possible to play and try to force mistakes.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't agree with that there are times even now when the team fights its nuts off to get a result but it happens more often of late on a less frequent basis

[selassie]

Wenger's team selection should tell us all we need to know about his indecisiveness towards certain members of the team. That said, whoever we have available are no match for the "Bayern's" of this world.

I think we have a multitude of problems that have all been covered in this thread, I do believe Wenger struggles to motivate the players or at least get into their heads. I also feel his achilles heel is still drilling a team tactically.

We keep on hearing about "warchests" and "significant funds" being made available to Wenger this summer but I really do not trust him with money anymore, he risk buys way more than he should and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Marc Overmars]

It's easy to fight when you're chasing a game, that seems to happen a lot now and more often than not it's too little too late. We don't really have the same control over games like we used to, god knows why our first half performances have been so pathetic this year.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well I more mean in games like Sunderland where things went against us and we battled it out

[Kano]

It's easy to fight when you're chasing a game, that seems to happen a lot now and more often than not it's too little too late. We don't really have the same control over games like we used to, god knows why our first half performances have been so pathetic this year.
scared and nervous. enough players have said so themselves. it reflects in our play. inhibited and a complete lack of self belief.

[AKBapologist]

Wenger signed them. Some are so-called replacements for our best players whom Wenger sold. If our best 11 are shite then its down to our manager.

They're a bunch of bargain basement shite afiak. Outside of the English market, player valuation seems to be more accurate than ever, which is bad for us because it means outside of end of contract deals, we'll get what we pay for. And given that the £30mill mega signings of old are now £60mill. But then again, undrilled zonal marking, overly optimistic appraisals of player fitness, selling to buy, selling and failing to replace, thread bare senior squad numbers, no natural wingers, basic shit that's completely unforgivable.

[Fist of Lehmann]

scared and nervous. enough players have said so themselves. it reflects in our play. inhibited and a complete lack of self belief.

Confidence comes from winning, winning from confidence.

Fear comes from fucking up over and over, fucking up comes from fear.

It's a virtuous/vicious circle. How do you break a circle? First of all you stop losing.

That's if your main problem is 'confidence' or 'de-motivation' and not 'quality'.

[Kano]

how did the circle start and who is to blame?

this is goonersweb. ain't a thing without a scapegoat.

[Fist of Lehmann]

This is everybody's fault but mine.

[AKBapologist]

I don't think it comes down to confidence or fear. Too few players in this squad actually have the ability to control games. So little imagination, physical strength, speed of body and mind. These are absolute characteristics that are independent of psychology and determine absolute potential. We just don't have the personnel, and we haven't in the strength and depth needed to win anything important, for a very long time.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I don't think it comes down to confidence or fear. Too few players in this squad actually have the ability to control games. So little imagination, physical strength, speed of body and mind. These are absolute characteristics that are independent of physiology and determine absolute potential. We just don't have the personnel, and we haven't in the strength and depth needed to win anything important, for a very long time.

I think games against Bayern and Manure have shown a clear and demonstrable gulf in class.
You cannot lose Cesc and Nasri and still convince people you are a big club. Fact is, we are 2nd tier.
We have 2nd tier ambitions with a team to match.

Psychological factors are all too easy to throw around simply because they are nebulous, difficult to prove.
And anecdotally, they're an easy outball for manager and players to cite.

Sure, blame motivation or confidence for your own lack of performance, better to have fans (and yourself) believe that because then you leave open the possibility of improvement.

But never, ever admit that you might not be good enough. Because once you admit that, there's no comeback. May as well admit you don't deserve the fat wage you're pulling down.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I believe there is a developing gulf in class, but look at sides beneath us in the league that have shown far more fight against the top sides than us. Ribery stated today that he was surprised how easy it was for them, I think this is because Wenger doesn't want to admit he's not coaching the same team as he was two years ago in terms of quality.
Podolski and Giroud are not Van Persie, Arteta and Ramsey are not Fabregas and Nasri and in order to get the same results in the same games these players need not just an arm round the shoulder and told to show their quality (that word has as much meaning to me as the name Annakin Skywalker had for Darth Vader) they need drilling to show fight more than quality. To really grind out games, than the results like Swansea and Blackburn at home may not be as prevalent and against Bayern even if we had lost anyway we would have at least looked like we give a shit.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

What has Nasri ever done for him to be such a strong referral whenever we are comparing our current lot to quality players that have graced our club?

[Kano]

if we had no fight at all and didn't react in the latter stages of games then i'd buy into the fact we were completely useless. however, games away to city, chelsea and the tottenham reaction show that there is something in there. not enough to win or challenge for the title but certainly better than we see most weeks. that reaction comes from inside the head, digging deep to do something but not having the mental strength to believe in it from the beginning.

coming back from adversity takes a different kind of mental strength to do that rather than take the bull by the horns and take charge.

[fakeyank]

if we had no fight at all and didn't react in the latter stages of games then i'd buy into the fact we were completely useless. however, games away to city, chelsea and the tottenham reaction show that there is something in there. not enough to win or challenge for the title but certainly better than we see most weeks. that reaction comes from inside the head, digging deep to do something but not having the mental strength to believe in it from the beginning.

coming back from adversity takes a different kind of mental strength to do that rather than take the bull by the horns and take charge.

:gp:

Very true. On paper, I do believe we have a very solid team. Our entire starting XI are starters for their international teams or right about on the verge of starting for their countries. These players just do not seem to be motivated enough to turn up for games.. they just seem to be coasting along in their careers. They really need a right kick up their arses.. give a couple of hair dryer treatments and see things change dramatically!

[Power n Glory]

It's combination of laziness, lack of leadership, lack of confidence, bad organisation and the manager failing to motivate his players.

For the Blackburn game, we can't blame quality. I just put that down to laziness from some players and bad organisation. Against Munich, I'm not so sure about motivation but we lack the quality and confidence. That's partly down to bad management again.

What was that stat on Arteta? He made as many passes as Merts during that game? 32 passes was it? Highlights a key problem we're having in the middle at the moment. We can't play the ball out from the back because he's not good enough to play there or has the confidence to take the ball under pressure, turn his man and pass it off to the right players. Countless times I've seen him avoid receiving the ball by pointing away or running away from the open space so he doesn't get the ball. When he gets the ball he can often be in too much of a rush to get rid of it and instead of looking up to see his options or the space around him, he'll pass it to the nearest open man even if it's not the best option. It's not entirely his fault because Wenger decided to sell Song, a player a lot braver than Arteta with his passing and distribution but lacked a bit of defensive discipline at times. All Wenger had to do was tell the guy to sit deep, hold and imagine your Pirlo. That's it.

Arteta is an example of someone that lacks the quality and confidence to play in that position and the lack of movement may look like laziness because he's scared of losing the ball in the middle. Wenger has to change this or give him a little guidance with his all round play. The same can be said for a host of other players on the squad.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

the lack of confidence is an interesting part, the downfall of chesney's confidence is extraordinary. he was a guy full of confidence when he first came on the scene and he wasn't afraid of anything. but now everytime the ball gets played back to him he approaches his kick in such a rigid manner. often he doesnt even know what to do, he gets caught in 2 minds.

his confidence is completely shot and it goes to show the disease that plagues our players when they get a run in our side. every season we hope it stops but it just gets worse.

[Power n Glory]

The Ox....what the heck happened to him?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Ireland somewhere that when Dortmund were struggling, Koop challenged the, to run 10k each in the next five games. As each game went in they ran further and slough didn't hit the ten k, the got closer. We need ideas like that to happen. Challenge the team etc

[Ollie the Optimist]

The Ox....what the heck happened to him?


Some fans massively overhyped a clearly talented player on a couple of performances and labelled home the next messi and because he hasn't scored 500 goals have now labelled him as shit

[Marc Overmars]

Ireland somewhere that when Dortmund were struggling, Koop challenged the, to run 10k each in the next five games. As each game went in they ran further and slough didn't hit the ten k, the got closer. We need ideas like that to happen. Challenge the team etc

Koop. :bow:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Tbf, the Ox is a bit shit.

Just another speed demon from Soton.

[GP]

:lol:

ffs, Oxlade is 19. There aren't many better around at that age.

[Xhaka Can’t]

The Ox....what the heck happened to him?

A bit rich coming from Theo's biggest fanboy.

[Power n Glory]

Some fans massively overhyped a clearly talented player on a couple of performances and labelled home the next messi and because he hasn't scored 500 goals have now labelled him as shit

True, some did overhype but I'm not in that bracket. Still has a lot to learn but has he performed as well as he did last season or had one game anywhere near? I'm not expecting consistency or a massive leap in progress at this stage but at least show a some of what we all saw last season. He can perform better than this.

[Power n Glory]

A bit rich coming from Theo's biggest fanboy.

Do you think Ox has been anywhere near what he was last season? It relates back to what the previous poster said about players falling off in their second season.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Do you think Ox has been anywhere near what he was last season? It relates back to what the previous poster said about players falling off in their second season.

I don't think it is a huge mystery.

He is played sporadically, is under pressure, has noone to learn from (contrast with Theo at his age) and has been found out. His attributes are no longer a surprise to opponents, so they deal with it better.

Ox has a LOT to learn - but from who?

[Power n Glory]

I don't think it is a huge mystery.

He is played sporadically, is under pressure, has noone to learn from (contrast with Theo at his age) and has been found out. His attributes are no longer a surprise to opponents, so they deal with it better.

Ox has a LOT to learn - but from who?

Contrast to Theo for his age?? It sounds like a similar story to Theo to me.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Contrast to Theo for his age?? It sounds like a similar story to Theo to me.

You misunderstand.

Contrast the quality Theo had around him to learn from with that of AOC.

[GP]

You misunderstand.

Contrast the quality Theo had around him to learn from with that of AOC.

Ox has Theo to learn from.

Gervinho too.

[fakeyank]

Ox has a LOT to learn - but from who?

Gervinho ##
Arshavin ##
Santos ##

[Power n Glory]

You misunderstand.

Contrast the quality Theo had around him to learn from with that of AOC.

I don't think it has anything to do with the players he has around him at this point. I don't expect a massive improvement over a short period of time. It's only been a year. Over time, the quality of players around will be a benefit but it's also worth remembering that Theo has been played as winger with nobody to learn from when he's been used to playing as a striker.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't think it has anything to do with the players he has around him at this point. I don't expect a massive improvement over a short period of time. It's only been a year. Over time, the quality of players around will be a benefit but it's also worth remembering that Theo has been played as winger with nobody to learn from when he's been used to playing as a striker.

I made more than one point on Ox, you've picked up on the one point that you originally misunderstood and decided to run with that ignoring the other theories. I think it is a combination of my original points, but you cannot deny that Theo was learning in a much more favourable environment than Ox.

[Power n Glory]

I made more than one point on Ox, you've picked up on the one point that you originally misunderstood and decided to run with that ignoring the other theories. I think it is a combination of my original points, but you cannot deny that Theo was learning in a much more favourable environment than Ox.

No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.

Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.

That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.

It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time. :lol:

[Ollie the Optimist]

No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.

Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.

That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.

It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time. :lol:

theo had henry to learn from for a year and a half. how to attack the wing and come in off it. he had pires for a bit, ljunberg too. much better quality to learn from then, ox who had rosicky, theo and thats it last year

[Xhaka Can’t]

No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.

Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.

That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.

It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time. :lol:

I've not been defensive in the slightest and can't be held responsible for you misunderstanding a post and then being selective in isolating that aspect of a post to run with and getting it so wrong.

You have been Theo's biggest apologist and for you to then harp on about Ox is a bit rich. The environments that Theo and Ox have had to develop in are incomparable. I'm surprised that even you would try to suggest otherwise.

[Power n Glory]

theo had henry to learn from for a year and a half. how to attack the wing and come in off it. he had pires for a bit, ljunberg too. much better quality to learn from then, ox who had rosicky, theo and thats it last year

Do you really think it takes a year or so of training will do the trick? By that standard a whole host of players should been better or mach2 versions of Henry, Pires, Vieira and co. Training with players for year doesn't mean you'll inherit their talent. Clichy, Toure, Eboue, Senderos, Adebayor, Reyes, Hleb...all trained some fantastic players but never reached the heights of their seniors. I would have thought the defenders wouldn't have benefitted more from training against a great attacking side but it has not happened.

[Power n Glory]

I've not been defensive in the slightest and can't be held responsible for you misunderstanding a post and then being selective in isolating that aspect of a post to run with and getting it so wrong.

You have been Theo's biggest apologist and for you to then harp on about Ox is a bit rich. The environments that Theo and Ox have had to develop in are incomparable. I'm surprised that even you would try to suggest otherwise.

There you go again, sniping away. :lol:

It was a simple 'What the heck happened to Ox' statement. I've answered your questions and linked it back to the original argument now move and stop bitching because this isn't a Theo vs Ox discussion.

[Marc Overmars]

He's not shit but Oxlade has not really managed to replicate the small patch of blistering form he showed last season, then again I don't think he's had a lot of opportunities to really. He rarely starts 2 games in a row often comes on as a sub when we're struggling. He's only 19 though and probably doesn't even know what his best position is, it's pointless passing judgement on a player like this.

[Power n Glory]

He's not shit but Oxlade has not really managed to replicate the small patch of blistering form he showed last season, then again I don't think he's had a lot of opportunities to really. He rarely starts 2 games in a row often comes on as a sub when we're struggling. He's only 19 though and probably doesn't even know what his best position is, it's pointless passing judgement on a player like this.


He's far from shit. But just to put things into perspective, this links back into SWAYR post about confidence and Chesney.

the lack of confidence is an interesting part, the downfall of chesney's confidence is extraordinary. he was a guy full of confidence when he first came on the scene and he wasn't afraid of anything. but now everytime the ball gets played back to him he approaches his kick in such a rigid manner. often he doesnt even know what to do, he gets caught in 2 minds.

his confidence is completely shot and it goes to show the disease that plagues our players when they get a run in our side. every season we hope it stops but it just gets worse.

Ox was playing without fear when he first arrived and your right to say he hasn't been the same this season. But he's not shit and I'd say the same about Chesney too.

[Xhaka Can’t]

There you go again, sniping away. :lol:

It was a simple 'What the heck happened to Ox' statement. I've answered your questions and linked it back to the original argument now move and stop bitching because this isn't a Theo vs Ox discussion.

And I think it is a bit rich of you - just like it is a bit rich of you to ask anybody to stay on any given topic.

The only substantive answer in this exchange was when I answered you in relation to what is going wrong with AOC. I agree he is disappointing this season, but there are many reasons for this. The principle one as I see it is the environment he is in, at the age he is, having been found out and with no one who provides the motivation he or this team needs to suceed.

As things stand, I don't see how he can develop. I have no Theo v Ox agenda, I just find it strange that someone who has been an agressive Theo advocate, lacks such conviction when it comes to another player who is going through a similar situation in a much much harsher environment.

[AKBapologist]

On the one hand any Theo advocate would be smart enough not to make the dumb suggestions that oxlaide would *overtake* theo next season because theo stalled under wenger... on the other hand, well there isnt one really. This Wenger cant develop players bullshit is just born out of the laser focus we have on players far from their prime. Oxlaide is about 10 years from really becoming the best he can be, chill the fuck out.

[Power n Glory]

And I think it is a bit rich of you - just like it is a bit rich of you to ask anybody to stay on any given topic.

The only substantive answer in this exchange was when I answered you in relation to what is going wrong with AOC. I agree he is disappointing this season, but there are many reasons for this. The principle one as I see it is the environment he is in, at the age he is, having been found out and with no one who provides the motivation he or this team needs to suceed.

As things stand, I don't see how he can develop. I have no Theo v Ox agenda, I just find it strange that someone who has been an agressive Theo advocate, lacks such conviction when it comes to another player who is going through a similar situation in a much much harsher environment.

Dude, how can you think a simple 'what the heck has happened to Ox' comment is 'a bit rich' when you put it in context of SWAYR post?

You've answered what you think went wrong and I agree with some points because it was a similar experience for Theo. You could have answered the original post with an explanation without the sniping and wumming. It would have been a better conversation if we're talking about player development and confidence instead of bitching.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Dude, how can you think a simple 'what the heck has happened to Ox' comment is 'a bit rich' when you put it in context of SWAYR post?

You've answered what you think went wrong and I agree with some points because it was a similar experience for Theo. You could have answered the original post with an explanation without the sniping and wumming. It would have been a better conversation if we're talking about player development and confidence instead of bitching.

Nah, you made the defensive jibe when I wasn't being matter of fact.


I made more than one point on Ox, you've picked up on the one point that you originally misunderstood and decided to run with that ignoring the other theories. I think it is a combination of my original points, but you cannot deny that Theo was learning in a much more favourable environment than Ox.

See?

I believe you have been an agressive advocate of Walcott, yet here is a 19 year old in an utterly toxic environment and I find it strange that such a staunch advocate of someone with similar predicaments in what was an easier environment could struggle to think what has happened to AOC.

[Power n Glory]

On the one hand any Theo advocate would be smart enough not to make the dumb suggestions that oxlaide would *overtake* theo next season because theo stalled under wenger... on the other hand, well there isnt one really. This Wenger cant develop players bullshit is just born out of the laser focus we have on players far from their prime. Oxlaide is about 10 years from really becoming the best he can be, chill the fuck out.

I'm really not sure about that anymore - that part about Wenger developing players. It used to be a given that a player would get better under Wenger. We all refer back to Henry and Pires needing a season to adapt as proof that players need time to adapt to the league and so forth. But that's not ringing true these days. Besides Ox and Chesney, young players who have plenty of time mind you, we have examples like Chamakh, Gervinho, Vermaelen, Arshavin...some players are getting worse and being thrown on the rubbish tip early. It's really hard to call these days and I'm not as quick to praise Wenger's development skills these days. It's not given that these signings will blossom and I used to be confident that he'd get the best out of players years back. Can't say the same now. But is that to do with the quality of players?

[Power n Glory]

A bit rich coming from Theo's biggest fanboy.

:lol: What's that about? Did I say he was another speed merchant or shit? You ignored that and decided to throw insult. Great work, GB!

[Xhaka Can’t]

The development of players in the past had to have been both to do with Wenger and the environment provided by the quality of the players and the experience they had to share. The latter element is now pretty much gone. A young player at Arsenal will now need to be exceptionally strong mentally to make full use of his potential unless we buy in the quality and experience we currently lack.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:lol: What's that about? Did I say he was another speed merchant or shit? You ignored that and decided to throw insult. Great work, GB!

What about it? It is true.

As for the rest, you don't make sense. How can I have ignored something you didn't say?

[Power n Glory]

What about it? It is true.

As for the rest, you don't make sense. How can I have ignored something you didn't say?

I did say very early on from the discussion and you've ignored the posts.

PnG

Do you think Ox has been anywhere near what he was last season? It relates back to what the previous poster said about players falling off in their second season.

GB

I don't think it is a huge mystery.

He is played sporadically, is under pressure, has noone to learn from (contrast with Theo at his age) and has been found out. His attributes are no longer a surprise to opponents, so they deal with it better.

Ox has a LOT to learn - but from who?

PnG

Contrast to Theo for his age?? It sounds like a similar story to Theo to me.

And I didn't misunderstand you're original. It's a similar story to Theo and posted this to elaborate.


No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.

Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.

That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.

It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time.

If you can agree that he hasn't done well this season, as I said earlier then how am I being disrespectful to the kid?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I hope this hasn't been keeping you awake all night.

I'm off to a meeting, but will get back to you later.

But it seems we agree on most points of substance.

[IBK]

Back to the OP - what your argument appears to assume is that there is only one way to motivate your team. For me it is patently obvious that Wenger is at fault for his players' approach to some games. Here are some examples.

- The manager consistently signals that certain games are less important than others. We saw this on the weekend, when starting a 'second string' team against Blackburn gave the clear message that this was a game that we could win without 100% commitment - and it showed in the team's approach to the game. The same applied to last season's CC final - when the team's lackadaisical approach to the run up to the final continued in its attitude on the pitch.

Even our second string should be sufficient to beat Blackburn and Birmingham, yes, but that's not the point. I can understand how Wenger's laptop tells him that he must rotate his team - but it is inevitable that when you signal that your priority is other than the game in hand, this will inevitably translate to your players on the pitch. Particularly when you are not a great man- motivator in the first place.

Similarly, Wenger's tacit admission that the EPL is beyond the club's resources - both in terms of his allowing our best talent to leave the club each season, and in his defence of finishing in fourth place over the seasons is damaging in terms of players' motivation. We are scared of playing so-called 'bigger' teams, and this fear is generated in part by the manager's overall approach over the past few years. If you give the impreession that you will accept second best then so will your players.

I would argue too that the way that Wenger behaves towards his players is de-motivating. How many times have we seen certain players stink the place up yet be 'rewarded' by keeping their place in the team. Players like Diaby, Gervinho have done little or nothing to justify starting berths - yet are persisted with. Walcott is indulged with a central striking role when is is patently obvious that he cannot be effective there against any half decent defence. This will inevitably lead to complacency. Other players - such as Jenkinson and Koscielny after last season, and Rosicky this season are dropped/not played despite being on hot streaks. I understand that to a degree these are issues for all managers. I understand too that in Wenger's head he is convinced that his players will come good. But both persisting with mediocrity and not rewarding good performances will inevitably de-motivate.

I feel also that Wenger over-protects his players. I am not arguing that he should attack them in public, but too often we see statements being made about his teams ability or performances, or PR spin that sidesteps obviously poor results. Compare and contrast Wenger and Laudrup last weekend. Over protected players will not bleed for the team every weekend. You have to get the balance right, and IMO Wenger doesn't.

Finally the lack of coaching, the self-confessed failures both to prepare to play the opposition that the team is facing and to practice the set pieces that can yield 'easy' goals is inevitably de-motivating. Particularly in a team so bereft of leaders, if the way you play is as ineffective as ours is, and if other teams can nullify us consistently, then of course the players are going to question themselves and motivation is going to suffer.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

its not bullshit. its real.

look at moyes and the way he gets his players to run through a brick wall for him

then look at walcott failing to track back, gervinho staying up field, even back in the day denilson casually jogging back when out of possession.

that all stems from motivation; if you motivate and encourage players they'll respond and do what you say.

unless of course he isn't even telling them to do that, in which case he is a useless pile of tosh and needs to be sacked ASAP.

[Globalgunner]

Motivation is part of the issue but not all of it. Wenger has this vaunted belief in a system of play that he adopted with the move to the Emirates. A pass and move system that brought players right into the opposition box and has the final ball played through the defenders. Early days he had talented players like Fabregas Hleb and nasri to put this into play. It was pretty but not always effective but when it worked it was good on the eyes. The instruction seemed to be to shoot only when you can see the stubble on the goalkeepers chin. Unfortunately even that close Gervinho will still miss and Giroud will instead shoot AT the keeper. It can only work with really talented players witrh close control, ball retention and slick movement. Barca can do it as thery have the players, but even they can be neutralised as has been done by Inter Chelsea and Milan. Yet the old dreamer persists with the bargain basement clod hoppers he keeps buying to ensure he retains his sales bonus.

He doesnt want to buy quality because quality players have ego and no patience for plainly rubbish methodologies

[Kano]

if swansea and several spanish teams can play decent football, then we can too. problem is we need to evolve the style back from the pure possession at all costs, back to actually moving towards the goal every time we have the ball.

[AKBapologist]

We started our best 11 against Blackpool, make fuck all difference. Moan about rotation and signals all you like but we just don't have the quality to take on teams who park the bus, or defend against anyone with an inkling of imagination.

[IBK]

Back to the OP - what your argument appears to assume is that there is only one way to motivate your team. For me it is patently obvious that Wenger is at fault for his players' approach to some games. Here are some examples.

- The manager consistently signals that certain games are less important than others. We saw this on the weekend, when starting a 'second string' team against Blackburn gave the clear message that this was a game that we could win without 100% commitment - and it showed in the team's approach to the game. The same applied to last season's CC final - when the team's lackadaisical approach to the run up to the final continued in its attitude on the pitch.

Even our second string should be sufficient to beat Blackburn and Birmingham, yes, but that's not the point. I can understand how Wenger's laptop tells him that he must rotate his team - but it is inevitable that when you signal that your priority is other than the game in hand, this will inevitably translate to your players on the pitch. Particularly when you are not a great man- motivator in the first place.

Similarly, Wenger's tacit admission that the EPL is beyond the club's resources - both in terms of his allowing our best talent to leave the club each season, and in his defence of finishing in fourth place over the seasons is damaging in terms of players' motivation. We are scared of playing so-called 'bigger' teams, and this fear is generated in part by the manager's overall approach over the past few years. If you give the impreession that you will accept second best then so will your players.

I would argue too that the way that Wenger behaves towards his players is de-motivating. How many times have we seen certain players stink the place up yet be 'rewarded' by keeping their place in the team. Players like Diaby, Gervinho have done little or nothing to justify starting berths - yet are persisted with. Walcott is indulged with a central striking role when is is patently obvious that he cannot be effective there against any half decent defence. This will inevitably lead to complacency. Other players - such as Jenkinson and Koscielny after last season, and Rosicky this season are dropped/not played despite being on hot streaks. I understand that to a degree these are issues for all managers. I understand too that in Wenger's head he is convinced that his players will come good. But both persisting with mediocrity and not rewarding good performances will inevitably de-motivate.

I feel also that Wenger over-protects his players. I am not arguing that he should attack them in public, but too often we see statements being made about his teams ability or performances, or PR spin that sidesteps obviously poor results. Compare and contrast Wenger and Laudrup last weekend. Over protected players will not bleed for the team every weekend. You have to get the balance right, and IMO Wenger doesn't.

Finally the lack of coaching, the self-confessed failures both to prepare to play the opposition that the team is facing and to practice the set pieces that can yield 'easy' goals is inevitably de-motivating. Particularly in a team so bereft of leaders, if the way you play is as ineffective as ours is, and if other teams can nullify us consistently, then of course the players are going to question themselves and motivation is going to suffer.

And I forgot to mention that this socialist wage structure where the shit players earn a lot regardless hardly motivates the better players. This having been said, Since his pay rise, Walcott has stunk the place up.

[Kano]

he scored in the next four games didn't he?

[AKBapologist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

[Niall_Quinn]

he scored in the next four games didn't he?

He peaked at the wrong point in contract negotiations.

[Nayan]

Manchester United:
Rejects try desperately to break into the team (all of them), cry (famously Roy Keane, but likely all of them) or go nuts (Tevez) and then either get sold (Berbatov, Gibson, Obertan etc) or request to be sold becasue they really really want to be playing first team football (Neville, O'shea, etc).

Arsenal
Denilson
Diaby
Almunia
Arshavin.

Oh dear

If these mugs ever do have to play they are shit. But its OK becasue WEnger blows smoke up their arse and tells them they did really well apart from those moments when they shipped three goals. Their possession stats were reaelly good or whatever. And dont worry about those set pieces we never attack or defend. Thats not our thing anyway.

Not only does Wenger have no idea how to motivate these players, any genuine competitors he happens to have get disillusioned at the free ride these guys get and the club's inability to reward real quality. So its easy for them to make eyes at their belowved city/barca/utd and yes, chelsea.

Wenger is as adept at de-motivating stars as Fergie is adept at motivating cloggers.

It wasnt always like that