Is it Wenger's ego rather than his ability that has cost us?

[IBK]

Thinking about the Giroud situation, it seems to me that when Wenger sold Van Perise, and brought in Giroud, Carzola and Podolski it must have been obvious to him that we would be nowhere near winning the league this season. Putting aside the advantage he handed Manure - Giroud was an obvious punt, coming from a weaker, and less physical league, despite his goal tally last season. Podolski - despite being a seasoned international had failed miserably at Bayern. Cazorla had done well at Malaga - but even if he was a superb technical player - he was far from tried and tested in the EPL.

And lets face it, Wenger is hardly a stranger to imports from foreign leagues crashing and burning, despite any impressive backgrounds.

For the past 6/7 years when we have been a selling club, the crown jewels that we have sold have all been Wenger development players (eg Cesc; Whore; RVP - even Song), or decent technical imports whom Wenger has provided a perfect platform to showcase their skills and can then claim that he has made them 'world class' (eg Nasri; Hleb).

The perception is that Wenger will never spend big on homegrown players, but that is not strictly true - as we paid top dollar for the likes of Walcott and the Ox.

The bottom line is that much of the reason why we have been treading water all these years is that with one noteable exception, Wenger only buys potential. We criticise him, but by any frame of reference he is far from being a 'shit' manager. He is simply not.

Instead, I wonder whether his true failing is simply that he is as happy to massage his ego by being famed for being the master developmental manager as for winning things, and would rather look constantly for the next Henri than make any pretence at competing properly with the big boys on the football pitch? In this, is club success merely secondary to Wenger's ego?

[LDG]

Last time I looked, Cazorla and Podolski were seasoned pro's, so I think that's a little harsh.

The difference is the price we pay for players, and that is also the difference (to a degree) in the level of player we have.

Though it could be argued that Cazorla was a snip, considering he's been one of our better "star" players. He's not Mata (don't get me wrong), but for 10mil or whatever, that's pretty good business.

[GP]

Surely delivering trophies would be better for his ego than how much he can sell a player for.

I mean, that's pretty obvious.

[Niall_Quinn]

My best guess. Wenger has an unflinching belief in principles that others will only speak to rather than practise. He thinks the game should not only be played in a certain way but run in a certain way. He makes no secret of it. Clubs living within their means, financial doping, level playing fields, these are the things he talks about. I picture him as a knight on horseback - going up against a tank and complaining furiously after he has been run over about the lack of honour displayed by the tank driver who, with a few levers, can easily overcome years of training, discipline, restraint, chivalry. For as much as he's practical in a financial sense he's utterly impractical and lost in ideology in other key areas connected to the game. An anachronism. If everyone thought his way then the sport would be better. With nobody else thinking his way he's left us, the fans, having to suffer for his ineffective (even if well intentioned) principles. Changing is easier said than done. You have to want to change, for a start, and I doubt he does.

Of course he's ideal for the like of Kroenke. Even if he didn't agree with what the yank is doing it wouldn't matter because their methods coincide even if their personal agendas don't. I'm not saying he's not fully on-board, just that it wouldn't really matter if he wasn't.

[Ollie the Optimist]

when you look at his recent signings in the last two years, they are not players who he can create into world class players like he did with henry.

Per
arteta
podolski
cazorla
giroud
monreal
and i include benayoun here even though he was a loan

of the others, the ox and gervniho, they are two players who have talent and he can work it.

so the majority of his recent signings are hardened seasoned professionals who he believes can help us acheive our aims by hitting the ground running etc and not by him creating the next henry/viera

[Marc Overmars]

Most of his recent signings have been players who have already hit, or are very close to hitting their ceilings. A problem when bringing in players like that is you really need them to be of the highest quality because they're unlikely to improve much. We've bought a lot of players who, with maybe the exception of Cazorla most would consider to be perhaps a level below the names that are revered in the game, so as a result our team remains stagnant.

How we could have done with some of our recent signings a few years ago when the team was young and had serious quality, but were crying out for some calmer heads.

I actually think he needs to bring in some players under 25 who he can work with, because lets face it one of Wenget's strengths is (was?) to polish rough diamonds. Maybe Jovetic could be one of these guys in the summer.

Even Fergie doesn't go heavy on ready made players anymore, RVC was his first worldie in years. The rest have been young guys who he can get the most out of in the long run.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep, it's a key point the fact we didn't bring in the players when we really needed them. We always need to get right to the edge before reacting and then all that can be done is to hold the line. Everyone at the club seems to believe getting 4th in the face of spending from city and the chavs is some huge achievement. It's conveniently ignored that we were right up there with Utd in past years, they have gone on and continue to compete (and they poured a ton of investment into their stadium too), we fell back. Bare minimum done on the pitch to maximise the outcome on the balance sheet. That's our recent history. A very few have benefited to a ridiculous degree, the vast majority have been short changed. Just a couple of key signings at critical moments, that could have made the difference. Still, we will always have the morally superior cup, invisible as it is.

[IBK]

Surely delivering trophies would be better for his ego than how much he can sell a player for.

I mean, that's pretty obvious.

The evidence would suggest otherwise...

[Niall_Quinn]

The evidence would suggest otherwise...

Agreed. He seems to view himself as some sort of father figure with a responsibility for furthering the career of the player that outweighs his responsibility to the club. Maybe unfair but that's how it seems to me. When he loses the battle to keep the player (our board just stinks of shit) he then seems to become an agent for that player. Odd thing here is we're criticising him for doing the decent thing. But the decent thing just doesn't work in the shitty world of big business football.

[IBK]

Last time I looked, Cazorla and Podolski were seasoned pro's, so I think that's a little harsh.

The difference is the price we pay for players, and that is also the difference (to a degree) in the level of player we have.

Though it could be argued that Cazorla was a snip, considering he's been one of our better "star" players. He's not Mata (don't get me wrong), but for 10mil or whatever, that's pretty good business.

Carzola has been a 'snip' in hindsight. Seems to me that our purchase decisions have been made more on the basis that the manager might unearth gems at a cheaper price than successful teams are paying. So either the focus is more on being seen to be a genius who can succeed doing it AW's way, or that Wenger backs himself to win things despite his policies being flawed, objectively. In both cases it seems to me that there is an element of misplaced ego here.

The alternative is that Wenger is fully aware that his transfer strategy will not lead to success - in which case we have a manager happy to settle for second (fourth) best, which is simply wrong for a club of Arsenal's pedigree...

[IBK]

Agreed. He seems to view himself as some sort of father figure with a responsibility for furthering the career of the player that outweighs his responsibility to the club. Maybe unfair but that's how it seems to me. When he loses the battle to keep the player (our board just stinks of shit) he then seems to become an agent for that player. Odd thing here is we're criticising him for doing the decent thing. But the decent thing just doesn't work in the shitty world of big business football.

...and it does somewhat go against the grain for the joint highest paid manager in the league to be earning what he does for doing the 'decent thing'. Arsenal are a big club, and to be making decisions based on footballing principles rather than what is going to win silverware smacks to me of ego. If Wenger truly wants to win things, then taking the risks he does (selling his best players; gambling on the likes of Diaby and persisting with under-performing players) suggests an attitude that says 'I know better than anyone else' - whatever the evidence to the contrary.

[IBK]

Last time I looked, Cazorla and Podolski were seasoned pro's, so I think that's a little harsh.

The difference is the price we pay for players, and that is also the difference (to a degree) in the level of player we have.

Though it could be argued that Cazorla was a snip, considering he's been one of our better "star" players. He's not Mata (don't get me wrong), but for 10mil or whatever, that's pretty good business.

PS I'm not suggesting that Podolski and Giroud weren't seasoned pro's. But as I've pointed out - relying on them as replacements for our best player - tried and tested best striker in the league was a massive punt, and one which may still backfire pretty badly.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The evidence would suggest otherwise...

sorry, but you are trying to suggest that a guy who reached the top of the english game, created the best premiership ever seen, won countless trophies would rather massage his ego by creating players then getting back to a level where he took us before?


really?

[Power n Glory]

His ego isn't big enough imo. He can take pride in developing some of the world's finest players but a real egotistical bastard wouldn't just stop there. He'd be be pushing for dominance in all competitions.

I doubt his skills as a manager and that's just the sad truth. There have been too many embarrassing results to lump it on the quality of our players.

[GP]

The evidence would suggest otherwise...

No it wouldn't.

[Niall_Quinn]

His ego isn't big enough imo. He can take pride in developing some of the world's finest players but a real egotistical bastard wouldn't just stop there. He'd be be pushing for dominance in all competitions.

I doubt his skills as a manager and that's just the sad truth. There have been too many embarrassing results to lump it on the quality of our players.

I don't doubt his skill and the results are very much in his favour. Plainly our seasonal goal as a club is to achieve a top 4 spot and the revenues that brings. Nobody is better than Wenger at hitting that goal. What I disagree with is the worth attached to that goal. Maybe 3-4 years back I would have said 4th place was an achievement, but only on the basis we then went on to try and better that the following year. This is where I differ as a fan with the agenda of the club. I couldn't give a shit what the money men think or do. I just expect them to earn their wages. Their role should be to keep us competitive despite the spending of city and the chavs. They don't do this, they are failures. So instead they claim it is impossible to compete (like Utd) and they make a trophy out of being second best. What a bunch of losers. Wenger seems to have bought into this, or at least his interests coincide. It can never be good enough for a fan when there team is second best. What's the point of sport if second best is acceptable? This is what Wenger has forgotten. He's our very own Anakin Skywalker.

[Niall_Quinn]

...and it does somewhat go against the grain for the joint highest paid manager in the league to be earning what he does for doing the 'decent thing'. Arsenal are a big club, and to be making decisions based on footballing principles rather than what is going to win silverware smacks to me of ego. If Wenger truly wants to win things, then taking the risks he does (selling his best players; gambling on the likes of Diaby and persisting with under-performing players) suggests an attitude that says 'I know better than anyone else' - whatever the evidence to the contrary.

He gets paid what he gets paid because he makes so much money for the stinking bunch of whores in the boardroom. Considering their goals have nothing to do with football, other than as a means to exploit a captive market, of course they will handsomely reward the guy who wittingly or unwittingly, willingly or unwillingly services their agenda in the most efficient and profitable manner.

In the end though, and we don't know enough about most things to be sure about anything, we can look at the sale of RvP to Utd. You don't really need to look much beyond that to see what the primary motivation is with the club and our manager. For this to ever happen they all must have lost focus on what football is all about and they all must have long since lost their respect for the fans.

[Power n Glory]

sorry, but you are trying to suggest that a guy who reached the top of the english game, created the best premiership ever seen, won countless trophies would rather massage his ego by creating players then getting back to a level where he took us before?


really?

If he was interested in silverware he'd go for the FA Cup and Carling Cup.

[IBK]

sorry, but you are trying to suggest that a guy who reached the top of the english game, created the best premiership ever seen, won countless trophies would rather massage his ego by creating players then getting back to a level where he took us before?


really?

You're living in the past. People change. Wenger has. If you and others think Wenger, with his policies/decisions in the last 8 years has had realistic ambitions to win silverware then you are on something. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that he is a shit manager. IMO he is either arrogant enough to believe that he can win things while at the same time allowing his best players to leave, or he is making the club subservient to his own principles/beliefs. Either way, his ego has hurt us.

There is a reason why he is no longer a winning manager - an obsession with producing players seems as good a theory to me as anything else.

[IBK]

No it wouldn't.

So turn it around. Question - does Wenger have an ego? - Undoubtedly. So why would he put up with failure/the sale of his players? The logical explanation would be a different agenda.

[GP]

You're saying he's feeding his ego by developing players and not winning.

Weird.

[Ollie the Optimist]

You're living in the past. People change. Wenger has. If you and others think Wenger, with his policies/decisions in the last 8 years has had realistic ambitions to win silverware then you are on something. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that he is a shit manager. IMO he is either arrogant enough to believe that he can win things while at the same time allowing his best players to leave, or he is making the club subservient to his own principles/beliefs. Either way, his ego has hurt us.

There is a reason why he is no longer a winning manager - an obsession with producing players seems as good a theory to me as anything else.


that theory would work, if he hadnt spent the last two seasons buying seasoned professionals instead of youngsters

[IBK]

that theory would work, if he hadnt spent the last two seasons buying seasoned professionals instead of youngsters

2 points. First - the 'seasoned professionals' are still inferior to the players he's let go - not like for like by any streach of the imagination. Second, they are good - not outstanding - players from foreign leagues - and therefore IMO still punts for the EPL. Yet they replace tried and tested top players in our league.

[IBK]

You're saying he's feeding his ego by developing players and not winning.

Weird.

What I'm saying is that he's feeding his obsession with unearthing world beaters rather than taking decisions more likely to ensure success.

[GP]

What I'm saying is that he's feeding his obsession with unearthing world beaters rather than taking decisions more likely to ensure success.

Nah, doesn't really stack up.

You're saying he's not replaced quality with quality, but you think that's to do with some obsession rather than financial constraints placed on him.

Weird.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I'd quite like to buy IBK a beer.

Several, actually.

[IBK]

Nah, doesn't really stack up.

You're saying he's not replaced quality with quality, but you think that's to do with some obsession rather than financial constraints placed on him.

Weird.

My reason is that I simply can't understand how a supposed winner would put up with 6 years of players in whom he has invested heart and soul to make into winners would stick around if the sales are his decision.

You can carve it up another way and ask (if he has been forced to sell) why the money hasn't been available. 2 reasons. First - he overpays a glut of mediocre development players that he has brought in. Second - a rigid adherence to a wage parity/over 30's policy which is unique to AW. The common denominator: ego.

[Cripps_orig]

I'd quite like to buy IBK a beer.

Several, actually.

Pretty much

Hes won this one pretty comfortably

[IBK]

I'd quite like to buy IBK a beer.

Several, actually.

Yay. :cheers:

[Power n Glory]

My reason is that I simply can't understand how a supposed winner would put up with 6 years of players in whom he has invested heart and soul to make into winners would stick around if the sales are his decision.

You can carve it up another way and ask (if he has been forced to sell) why the money hasn't been available. 2 reasons. First - he overpays a glut of mediocre development players that he has brought in. Second - a rigid adherence to a wage parity/over 30's policy which is unique to AW. The common denominator: ego.

When he retires and someone asks him about the lack of trophies, I think he'll probably point to the players he's developed and take pride in that. If he was desperate for more silverware he'd have walked away from the club. He loves developing players and probably explains why he moved to Japan instead of looking for a top job in Europe when he left France. It's more of a challenge and more rewarding.

[Letters]

My best guess. Wenger has an unflinching belief in principles that others will only speak to rather than practise. He thinks the game should not only be played in a certain way but run in a certain way. He makes no secret of it. Clubs living within their means, financial doping, level playing fields, these are the things he talks about. I picture him as a knight on horseback - going up against a tank and complaining furiously after he has been run over about the lack of honour displayed by the tank driver who, with a few levers, can easily overcome years of training, discipline, restraint, chivalry. For as much as he's practical in a financial sense he's utterly impractical and lost in ideology in other key areas connected to the game. An anachronism. If everyone thought his way then the sport would be better. With nobody else thinking his way he's left us, the fans, having to suffer for his ineffective (even if well intentioned) principles. Changing is easier said than done. You have to want to change, for a start, and I doubt he does.

Of course he's ideal for the like of Kroenke. Even if he didn't agree with what the yank is doing it wouldn't matter because their methods coincide even if their personal agendas don't. I'm not saying he's not fully on-board, just that it wouldn't really matter if he wasn't.
:gp:

That's my guess too.

[selassie]

:gp:

That's my guess too.

Yep me too.

I personally think that Arsene is at the point of "no return' in regards to relaxing his methodology and modifying his approach.

It's "His Way" or no way at all. He would sooner walk than be told to modify his approach to achieve better results on the football field, that's just my opinion.

This is as good as it will get until he leaves IMHO.

[IBK]

Agreed, NQ. AW is utterly wedded to his principles and thus his ego overwhelms the club's primary interests. These principles include not pressuring his best players to stay. The fact that he is given free reign by an owner/board who have no real interest in winning silverware makes it a perfect storm.

Wenger is principled but not stupid, which is why he appears to have thrown in the towel against the mega rich clubs - and why it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that it is player development rather than silverware that motivates him these days.

With the news of today's new kit deal - my concern is that Wenger will still approach the transfer market with the brakes on - and buy what he regards as good value rather than buying the very best players possible. In that sense Wenger is like a great racing driver competing with the handbrake on.

[LDG]

I'm more concerned with his tactical decisions rather than the players he's bought.

I'm not saying that he's done well in the transfer market, by any means, and yes he has gone for cheaper "bargains". But if his objective (as set by his employers) is to get ECL, and that he only has X amount to spend (not forgetting we apparently needed a profit each year in the transfer window), then it's a bit harsh on Wenget, saying it's his ego.

I don't doubt that some of his "ideologies" are satisfied by being prudent, but I firmly believe he still wants to win the league, the ECL etc just as much as he ever has.

We have some dosh available now (supposedly) so perhaps we'll find out this summer.

[selassie]

I'm more concerned with his tactical decisions rather than the players he's bought.

I'm not saying that he's done well in the transfer market, by any means, and yes he has gone for cheaper "bargains". But if his objective (as set by his employers) is to get ECL, and that he only has X amount to spend (not forgetting we apparently needed a profit each year in the transfer window), then it's a bit harsh on Wenget, saying it's his ego.

I don't doubt that some of his "ideologies" are satisfied by being prudent, but I firmly believe he still wants to win the league, the ECL etc just as much as he ever has.

We have some dosh available now (supposedly) so perhaps we'll find out this summer.

Oh he still wants to win, he wants CL & PL, but it has to be done "The Right Way".

I know this has already been covered by NQ and IBK, but Arsene doesn't play "Psuedo Accountant" or "Preach Pureities" for no reason. He believes in his metholody and principle and will only take satisfaction out of winning this way. This is just my opinion.

Oh and yes he's a lousy tactician.

[IBK]

I'm more concerned with his tactical decisions rather than the players he's bought.

I'm not saying that he's done well in the transfer market, by any means, and yes he has gone for cheaper "bargains". But if his objective (as set by his employers) is to get ECL, and that he only has X amount to spend (not forgetting we apparently needed a profit each year in the transfer window), then it's a bit harsh on Wenget, saying it's his ego.

I don't doubt that some of his "ideologies" are satisfied by being prudent, but I firmly believe he still wants to win the league, the ECL etc just as much as he ever has.

We have some dosh available now (supposedly) so perhaps we'll find out this summer.

I've thought quite a lot about this recently. I don't think Wenger's tactical ability has changed at all since he has been with us. While I know you are not arguing this - it makes no sense at all that it has somehow deteriorated from when he was successful. Tactical acumen could only ever improve over time with experience - not the other way round.

From everything we know about him - Wenger is tactically 'deficient' because he does not study tactics (in the sense of working out how other teams play and how to beat them). What he has is a style or system of play - and we have seen probably three of these during his time with us, the current one being his vision of 'total football'.

IMO - Wenger's success involved encouraging astute and talented players to express themselves and maximise their potential in a fluid system that allowed them to do it. It worked because he had the personnel to achieve this - together with a degree of continuity.

His problem these days is not 'tactical' in the true sense - it is that his chosen way of playing is vulnerable - both going forward and defensively, and that he simply does not have the quality of players to carry it off. And by quality - IMO it is not so much technical ability - but all round quality including leadership; character and footballing intelligence. The main difference from before is that in the 'Invincible' era - his senior players could do it without coaching, with younger players learning from them. These days, his players could probably perform better with better coaching (ie being told what to do and how to play), but we know Wenger is not that kind of manager.

So if we take Wenger's abilities as a constant, then the principal problem is his choice of personnel - and here's where I feel his ego has got in the way. First - as he's gone on he appears to have become more messianistic and intolerant of other people's views. We had a glimpse of this with Keown, and its resulted in his buying, on the whole, characterless players who don't have it in them to add the extra that is needed to win. This has been reflected in his choices of captain; his lack of leaders on the pitch when needed, and his reaction when a player like Van Persie (by all accounts) dared to speak to Wenger about how the team should be developed. This attitude appears to have evolved, because he had leaders between 1996 and 2005. And to me it reflects ego - both in refusing any alternative views on the pitch, and being blind to the contribution of his 'character' players to his success.

Second in his purchasing decisions. While I agree that these have changed direction recently, he still hasn't signed real leaders. But the disastrous 'developmental' signings that he has made, and in some cases persevered too long with are well documented. For me - again this is ego. An assumption that he can make Henri's out of every player signed from the backwaters of other leagues or clubs.

Third in his wage policies - that have led to us squandering the resources we have and being unable to reward our top performers so as to keep them. Again - an arrogant belief that his approach is right - when clearly it has hurt us.

Fourth - a seeming belief that he can succeed despite his best players going with his blessing. Again - an egotistical approach.

You will say that his player departures have been forced on him. It may be harsh, but I can't accept this. His key departures IMO have been caused by a combination of his wage policies stated above; disillusionment at his methods by his senior players, and Wenger's principled approach not to stand in the way of his player's wishes (plus a naive belief that they will favour his crusade rather than fame and fortune elsewhere). I accept that he sees himself as a financial guardian of the club, but this is part of his indulgence in his principles.

AW has unprecedented power at AFC, and unprecedented support from the board, for whom he is a cash cow. I refuse to believe that if he threatened to walk unless funds were made available to buy or keep a player he wanted, the board would turn him down.

[Tipsychubbs]

I'm more concerned with his tactical decisions rather than the players he's bought.

:good:

Basic things on the pitch aren't being done, we are quite an easy team to play against if teams have a good gameplan, in fact we make it easy and lack of hard work off the ball (and I don't mean pressing at 100mph for 90mins but positional discipline and teamwork)

If that aspect improved, and its just one of a few, we'd be getting more towards the max out of the current crop of players. But that is a job for the next manager it seems not Wenger's style.



it is that his chosen way of playing is vulnerable - both going forward and defensively, and that he simply does not have the quality of players to carry it off. And by quality - IMO it is not so much technical ability - but all round quality including leadership; character and footballing intelligence. The main difference from before is that in the 'Invincible' era - his senior players could do it without coaching, with younger players learning from them. These days, his players could probably perform better with better coaching (ie being told what to do and how to play), but we know Wenger is not that kind of manager.

So if we take Wenger's abilities as a constant, then the principal problem is his choice of personnel - and here's where I feel his ego has got in the way.


Without the personnel and tactics, its a bad combo.

The game has changed though, I'm not sure you can just get away with the personnel approach these days anymore, as I mentioned any teams with well disciplined gameplans and the personnel mix will do better.