did we give Carlos Vela a proper chance?

[iwanturcake69]

Now that hes tearing La Liga and champions league a new one I feel we didnt give him an adequate run in in the squad. I feel he was one of the players who like Chamak struggled because of the dominance and over reliance on Van Persie. He showed some good qualities in League cup games as well. Feels such a shame that we sold him for about £5mil and now hes worth five times that

[Özim]

Never got a fair chance to prove himself here, too often behind some dire players and rarely played in his natural position, I'd say he was very badly managed, he was a young player with a lot of talent who needed a bit of confidence.

Shame we never made the most of him and held on to shite instead of giving him a good chance to show what he can do.

[Nayan]

Now that hes tearing La Liga and champions league a new one I feel we didnt give him an adequate run in in the squad. I feel he was one of the players who like Chamak struggled because of the dominance and over reliance on Van Persie. He showed some good qualities in League cup games as well. Feels such a shame that we sold him for about £5mil and now hes worth five times that

Had many chances to prove himself and never did the business when he got minutes on the field during a league match

If he looks good in la logs its because that's a poofs league.

[Nayan]

Julie baptista, freddy kanoute and Diego Forman won golden boots in la liga.
Looking good there in no way guarantees a players usefulness in the premiership.

[Niall_Quinn]

Hindsight and a couple of goals in a new league. Doesn't prove anything. Talented, pacey, was mostly anonymous whenever he played for us.

[Ollie the Optimist]

he made 62 appearances for us. i think we gave him a fair chance.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

He had no interest in returning to us after his loan deal and that's fair enough. We move on, so does he. Hopefully he knocks Man Utd out.

[Özim]

Our loss at the end of the day, not his.

[Özim]

He had no interest in returning to us after his loan deal and that's fair enough. We move on, so does he. Hopefully he knocks Man Utd out.

Yeah he didn't clearly, that's probably due to the position he was played in and how little game time he was getting.

[Ollie the Optimist]

for someone who hated project youth, you seem to be pretty pissed off we didnt keep this kid. he wasnt anything special. he did fuck all for us but score some chipped goals in carling cup matches.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yeah he didn't clearly, that's probably due to the position he was played in and how little game time he was getting.

Thus he has made the right decision for his career but I wouldn't put it as though we've missed the boat on him or anything. There are players that we could get that are better than him, though he has played very well for Real Sociedad over the last two seasons.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Our loss at the end of the day, not his.

Hardly. With all the best will in the world, it's not likely to come back to haunt us.

[Özim]

Thus he has made the right decision for his career but I wouldn't put it as though we've missed the boat on him or anything. There are players that we could get that are better than him, though he has played very well for Real Sociedad over the last two seasons.

I'd say he's pretty good these days, as for the players better than him, we'll never get them.

[Özim]

Hardly. With all the best will in the world, it's not likely to come back to haunt us.

Well it is because he was a quality player who was ours and is better than what we have, if he was ours he would have been very useful right now. Whereas for him he's at CL club, playing regularly in a nice country with great weather and beautiful women. I'd say he got the better end of the deal.

[Munchies]

Well we went through alot to get him here, ie loaning him out to rack up his games for a permit iirc and when he finally did arrive, I'm not really sure why, could of been the league itself as the La Liga is much weaker. I'd have him back for our bench that's for sure though.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'd say he's pretty good these days, as for the players better than him, we'll never get them.

We aren't going to extract those kind of performances if he was going to be unhappy here, it's fairly unlikely he's going to be play ahead of Theo, plus Wenger loves his big tall strikers up front. I remember the same argument was put forward about Aliadiere and though he has resurrected his career to some extent, it's not like it's a baffling one to let him go.

[Özim]

Well we went through alot to get him here, ie loaning him out to rack up his games for a permit iirc and when he finally did arrive, I'm not really sure why, could of been the league itself as the La Liga is much weaker. I'd have him back for our bench that's for sure though.

I think it was also a confidence thing, never got a run of games, he use to get half games and the odd game here and there usually in the wrong position, you can't get any form going that way you need a run of games, bad management IMO.

[Özim]

We aren't going to extract those kind of performances if he was going to be unhappy here, it's fairly unlikely he's going to be play ahead of Theo, plus Wenger loves his big tall strikers up front. I remember the same argument was put forward about Aliadiere and though he has resurrected his career to some extent, it's not like it's a baffling one to let him go.

That's the problem, if he doesn't fit into a certain mould Wenger doesn't like them, kinda explains why we haven't won a thing in 8 years...clearly the Wenger mould players aren't working, not that you'd expect him to acknowledge that, as he's unable to spot basic flaws in his methodology either.

[Ollie the Optimist]

is vela better then van persie, chamkh, podolski, giroud and walcott?

answer. maybe chamkh but the rest are better. so why do we need him? he failed in england. and not jsut at Arsenal. he went to west brom on loan and failed there. cant blame wenger for that one.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well it is because he was a quality player who was ours and is better than what we have, if he was ours he would have been very useful right now. Whereas for him he's at CL club, playing regularly in a nice country with great weather and beautiful women. I'd say he got the better end of the deal.

What a ludicrous second sentence. :lol: Even if he is in a nice country with great weather (and I suppose he is) and beautiful women, what are we supposed to do, bring in some cheerleaders from the Basque country? And move England to a more southern location?

[Özim]

What a ludicrous second sentence. :lol: Even if he is in a nice country with great weather (and I suppose he is) and beautiful women, what are we supposed to do, bring in some cheerleaders from the Basque country? And move England to a more southern location?

Just saying we gave hm absolutely no reason to want to stay, the women and sun are an additional bonus.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That's the problem, if he doesn't fit into a certain mould Wenger doesn't like them, kinda explains why we haven't won a thing in 8 years...clearly the Wenger mould players aren't working, not that you'd expect him to acknowledge that, as he's unable to spot basic flaws in his methodology either.

I'm guessing what you're saying, essentially is that you'd rather Vela starting for us than whatever we put up front currently? I don't want to go down the road about Wenger's flaws because this is more about the will of the player we're talking about.

[Özim]

is vela better then van persie, chamkh, podolski, giroud and walcott?

answer. maybe chamkh but the rest are better. so why do we need him? he failed in england. and not jsut at Arsenal. he went to west brom on loan and failed there. cant blame wenger for that one.

Hardly failed at West Brom, he only got 8 games, not really enough to prove yourself is it?

As for the comparison, he's arguably better than a number of those, certainly more naturally skilled which was always his game.

[Özim]

I'm guessing what you're saying, essentially is that you'd rather Vela starting for us than whatever we put up front currently? I don't want to go down the road about Wenger's flaws because this is more about the will of the player we're talking about.

As we are at the moment yes, worst case he'd be a great option from the bench, looking at our squad at the moment it's woeful and we're clearly not too keen to sign anyone of quality, so if we did have him he'd still be a decent option.

[Boss]

Gave him enough of a chance but he never really showed he had what it took to become a top player for us. Aliadiere's career has recovered as well for Lorient while Anthony Stokes has averaged 20+ goals a season for the last three years but none of them are too big a loss for us.

[Nayan]

Yeah he didn't clearly, that's probably due to the position he was played in and how little game time he was getting.

He was getting played at inside left where podolski has been played.
He was good for one thing only - scoring the fifth goal in a league cup rout

Shit player. My only regret is not getting a few million from hull, Brum or whoever for him
Vela = poor mans aliadiere.
If you're looking for an Iberian lefty we failed to get the most out of think Jose Antonio Reyes. He was much much better.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Yes we did. Unfortunately apart from scoring chipped +1's when we were leading 3 - 0 already he never really displayed many other qualities.


Julie baptista, freddy kanoute and Diego Forman won golden boots in la liga.
Looking good there in no way guarantees a players usefulness in the premiership.

Tell that to the Soldado fanboys. :coffee:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Hardly failed at West Brom, he only got 8 games, not really enough to prove yourself is it?

As for the comparison, he's arguably better than a number of those, certainly more naturally skilled which was always his game.


and his game failed massively in england.

ok he played 8 games. he joined in january. so he should have been availble for at least 15 games. so why only make 8 appearances? west brom didnt rate him either i guess.

[Özim]

Wrong I didn't hate project youth, I do hate it as it's still going on, but that has been the odd talent that has come through (no more than any normal club which considering we put all our focus into this is shocking).

I'm p*ssed off we kept hold of the likes of Chamakh and Bendtner and got rid of him yes, it wouldn't be so bad if we signed players but clearly it's not something we do, we like to sit on our arses and make ridiculous excuses whilst every other club snaps up talented players all around us.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

As we are at the moment yes, worst case he'd be a great option from the bench, looking at our squad at the moment it's woeful and we're clearly not too keen to sign anyone of quality, so if we did have him he'd still be a decent option.

A decent option from the bench, I somehow doubt that's going to entice him when he is enjoying being guaranteed a start where he is now.

[GP]

I seem to remember someone said he should open a chip shop because all he could do was chip.

Can't recall who said it though.

[Özim]

He was getting played at inside left where podolski has been played.
He was good for one thing only - scoring the fifth goal in a league cup rout

Shit player. My only regret is not getting a few million from hull, Brum or whoever for him
Vela = poor mans aliadiere.
If you're looking for an Iberian lefty we failed to get the most out of think Jose Antonio Reyes. He was much much better.

Yeah and we've seen how good Podolski is out of position as well.

As for Reyes, yeah great player, been pulling out trees ever since he left I see, I don't regret seeing him leave was never good enough, such a weak player mentally and that's dogged his entire career to be honest, he's never been a top class player at any club he's been since he left Sevilla.

[Özim]

A decent option from the bench, I somehow doubt that's going to entice him when he is enjoying being guaranteed a start where he is now.

You're right, probably the case with any decent player to be honest, looks like we need a new manager.

[Nayan]

Yes we did. Unfortunately apart from scoring chipped +1's when we were leading 3 - 0 already he never really displayed many other qualities.



Tell that to the Soldado fanboys. :coffee:

Er I just did.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

You're right, probably the case with any decent player to be honest, looks like we need a new manager.

This is something that happens with many players and many managers. I've got no interest in talking about Wenger's flaws for this tbf.

[Özim]

This is something that happens with many players and many managers. I've got no interest in talking about Wenger's flaws for this tbf.

These days spotting talent and getting the most out of players seems to be 2 of them, which is a real problem for us and for any signings (though we don't have to worry about the latter).

There's lots of recent examples of this.

[Nayan]

Just saying we gave hm absolutely no reason to want to stay, the women and sun are an additional bonus.

People who insist the women are better abroad usually only think that cos they can't get one here

[Ollie the Optimist]

These days spotting talent and getting the most out of players seems to be 2 of them, which is a real problem for us and for any signings (though we don't have to worry about the latter).

There's lots of recent examples of this.

true, but spotting talent and getting the best out of players is the reason why your beloved vela left Arsenal. because wenger discovered van persie and got the best out of him. nad his best was better then velas best. this is not poor management, its vela not being suited to english football.

i assume you were completely gutted he was sold at the time, and supported him the whole time when he played, not accusing him of just being able to chip the ball for +1 goals and decicded to bring it up now to have a go at wenger again

[Özim]

People who insist the women are better abroad usually o my think that cos they can't get one here

Or maybe they prefer their women not to be comatosed after a night out :coffee:

[Özim]

true, but spotting talent and getting the best out of players is the reason why your beloved vela left Arsenal. because wenger discovered van persie and got the best out of him. nad his best was better then velas best. this is not poor management, its vela not being suited to english football.

i assume you were completely gutted he was sold at the time, and supported him the whole time when he played, not accusing him of just being able to chip the ball for +1 goals and decicded to bring it up now to have a go at wenger again

For every one player that worked there are a dozen that didn't so his rate of success with players is poor, he signed so many kids and yet so few actually worked out that reflects on him I'm afraid, those that did couldn't wait to leave, again that reflects on him.

I was disappointed yes as he had talent but I could see Wenger just didn't want to play him and preferred players like Bendtner and Chamakh so what can you do.

[Nayan]

Hardly failed at West Brom, he only got 8 games, not really enough to prove yourself is it?

As for the comparison, he's arguably better than a number of those, certainly more naturally skilled which was always his game.
That shortarse keepy uppy idiot from the t mobile ads is more skilled than any if them.
Doesn't mean he'd be an effective footballer.
I don't know why vela is such utter gash when you play him in a proper premiership match. If it works for him in
La liga fair play move on

Pluschamakh will look half decent this season. Palace are playing line striker and you'd expect any centre forward to
Bang a few in for them. He's still crap though.

[Nayan]

Or maybe they prefer their women not to be comatosed after a night out :coffee:

But of a generalisation there though!
Actually maybe not. I'm in greater manchester this weekend

Grim.

[Özim]

That shortarse keepy uppy idiot from the t mobile ads is more skilled than any if them.
Doesn't mean he'd be an effective footballer.
I don't know why vela is such utter gash when you play him in a proper premiership match. If it works for him in
La liga fair play move on

Pluschamakh will look half decent this season. Palace are playing line striker and you'd expect any centre forward to
Bang a few in for them. He's still crap though.
As I said I reckon confidence and being played in the right position for him are the reason, some players can't play in every position on the pitch like Wenger wants, sometimes you just have to play them where they are at their best.

Chamakh was never decent to be honest, I called him out when he was at Bordeaux tapping in 2 yarders and doing little else but running around like a headless chicken.

Anyway he's gone but my point was really that with us not signing anyone he'd be a better option to have than we currently have.

[Özim]

But of a generalisation there though!
Actually maybe not. I'm in greater manchester this weekend

Grim.

Maybe, I don't mind women in the UK, just saying there's some beauties in Spain, not too keen on the whole women drinking till they're off their faces thing though.

[Ollie the Optimist]

ramsey was played out of position on the right wing. guess what he did? worked hard, never complained and is now in the middle of the midfield playing superb football.

vela couldnt hack it, being played out of position is a poor excuse as he jsut couldnt be arsed to work hard, like arshavin. there are players who are played out of position. ramsey has even been right back a few times, he just gets on with it! vela failed because he is weak, mentally and physically, couldnt be arsed to work hard.

[Özim]

Like I said not every player can play out of position, Ramsey has been dogshite for 2 years incidentally, it's just that Wenger likes him so plays him a lot...that's what Wenger does stick to his favourites regardless of how bad they play. That in itself is a problem as some players don't get a fair crack because of it.

Never thought Vela got a decent chance, the odd half game here and there isn't enough to get a run of form, you need to play a few games, even the great Bergkamp took 7 consecutive games to score a goal when he first arrived.

[Nayan]

Not often I agree with you but yeah spot on (ollie)

[milla]

ramsey was played out of position on the right wing. guess what he did? worked hard, never complained and is now in the middle of the midfield playing superb football.

vela couldnt hack it, being played out of position is a poor excuse as he jsut couldnt be arsed to work hard, like arshavin. there are players who are played out of position. ramsey has even been right back a few times, he just gets on with it! vela failed because he is weak, mentally and physically, couldnt be arsed to work hard.

That's bullshit. Ramsey is shit on the wing and will always be shit on the wing. What made you think Vela is lazy? Cos he doesn't run like a headless chicken everyday? To say Vela failed because he is weak itself is a weak argument. He failed because he never gets to play to his full strength, period. Ramsey would still be shit if Wenger slotted him on the wing, period. :coffee:

[Penguin]

Vela got plenty of chances here. It's easy to say in hindsight we should've kept him here or played him more, but he was never going to get past RVP while he was here and didn't impress enough when he did play.

I'm glad to see him doing well though. He's a very likeable guy and always has a smile on his face.

[Marc Overmars]

He had better players in front of him and never really impressed with the game time he had, bar a few fancy goals in cup games. Meh.

[Master Splinter]

He had better players in front of him and never really impressed with the game time he had, bar a few fancy goals in cup games. Meh.

Hard to disagree.

[Özim]

He had better players in front of him and never really impressed with the game time he had, bar a few fancy goals in cup games. Meh.

I'm not sure Chamakh or Bendtner can be considered "better" to be honest.

[Marc Overmars]

I'm not sure Chamakh or Bendtner can be considered "better" to be honest.

They were, which shows how crap he was.

[Master Splinter]

They were, which shows how crap he was.

Plus, he was competing with Adebayor, RVC, Eduardo, Arshavin and Nasri more so than those two.

[Cripps_orig]

He was shit for us

Good to see he's doing better though away from us.

So called arsenal curse :rose:

[Nayan]

If (and im not saying you are, but just for completeness, like) one were looking for evidence of wenger's mismanagement
Then a conspiracy theory with Carlos vela being shit as the punchline is barking up the wrong tree

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I never felt he had the strength to deal with the physical aspects of English Football and to be honest i almost feel like Messi wouldn't do as well playing in the Premier League as he does playing in La Liga
I'm glad Vela is doing well at Real Sociedad as generally i like all ex Arsenal players to do well for themselves as long as
a) They don't score or play well against us
b) They aren't cunts....and I wouldn't put Vela in that category

[GP]

Totes

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I reckon we need to give kiwomya another chance.

[Power n Glory]

The kid was played out of position and never got enough games in the first team anyway. It's hard to compare Vela with Ramsey in that regard because Ramsey would start game after game on the right or get subbed on. Ramsey even racked up a whole season playing in his favoured position a year before so he was given way more time to adapt even when he had back to back poor games, he'd never get dropped. Vela could score in the Carling Cup and play a good game but he'd never get a start in the first team following that game. That's got to mess with your confidence and then when you finally get 10 minutes to play and you look nervy or don't do enough in the game you may start trying to force things to happen as we saw last season with the Ox. If you don't speak up for yourself you will get left behind. Remember the story about Theo demanding and answer on why he's not starting games? It's not the way to develop players and why we have to send so many players on loan to get some bloody confidence.

Vela is currently playing on the right wing and that's where he should have played for us. No idea why Wenger does this. Left footers on the right and right footers on the left. It would make their lives so much easier.

[Power n Glory]

Wrong I didn't hate project youth, I do hate it as it's still going on, but that has been the odd talent that has come through (no more than any normal club which considering we put all our focus into this is shocking).

I'm p*ssed off we kept hold of the likes of Chamakh and Bendtner and got rid of him yes, it wouldn't be so bad if we signed players but clearly it's not something we do, we like to sit on our arses and make ridiculous excuses whilst every other club snaps up talented players all around us.

Project youth has been a huge waste of time. We pursued Vela and held off from buying proper strikers because Wenger wanted to wait on him. During the window, like what we're seeing now, when talking to the press he'd justify his summer inactivity by rattling off the amount of players we have in certain positions and Vela would get included in that bracket? 'I buy a striker, where do I play them'? If he'd have actually stood by Bendy, Vela and these players to this day, then I could at least understand the inactivity to an extent. But what really pisses me off is the fact that he's gotten rid of these players and there are new batch of players he's using as an excuse not to buy. There is no point in clearing up shit to pile more shit on top.

Sanogo is the new Vela and that's what's so infuriating. If we don't buy anyone in September and he talks up Sanogo, Gnarby and anyone else, if he talks that shit about his convictions and doing what's right for the club, not being dictated to by the press and fans, then someone needs to ask him about Vela, Djourou, Senderos, Denilson, Bendy, etc and go to town on him. What the heck happened with those players because his convictions lead him to believe hose players were the future of this club, yet he's gotten rid of them. He was wrong before, why is he right today? Why should we trust again?

[Özim]

The kid was played out of position and never got enough games in the first team anyway. It's hard to compare Vela with Ramsey in that regard because Ramsey would start game after game on the right or get subbed on. Ramsey even racked up a whole season playing in his favoured position a year before so he was given way more time to adapt even when he had back to back poor games, he'd never get dropped. Vela could score in the Carling Cup and play a good game but he'd never get a start in the first team following that game. That's got to mess with your confidence and then when you finally get 10 minutes to play and you look nervy or don't do enough in the game you may start trying to force things to happen as we saw last season with the Ox. If you don't speak up for yourself you will get left behind. Remember the story about Theo demanding and answer on why he's not starting games? It's not the way to develop players and why we have to send so many players on loan to get some bloody confidence.

Vela is currently playing on the right wing and that's where he should have played for us. No idea why Wenger does this. Left footers on the right and right footers on the left. It would make their lives so much easier.

Exactly right.

As for why Wenger does it, well he wants every player to play in alien positions for some reason, he's really clueless...there's not much he's good at these days, can't seemingly even pull off any decent transfers in 3 months.

[Özim]

Project youth has been a huge waste of time. We pursued Vela and held off from buying proper strikers because Wenger wanted to wait on him. During the window, like what we're seeing now, when talking to the press he'd justify his summer inactivity by rattling off the amount of players we have in certain positions and Vela would get included in that bracket? 'I buy a striker, where do I play them'? If he'd have actually stood by Bendy, Vela and these players to this day, then I could at least understand the inactivity to an extent. But what really pisses me off is the fact that he's gotten rid of these players and there are new batch of players he's using as an excuse not to buy. There is no point in clearing up shit to pile more shit on top.

Sanogo is the new Vela and that's what's so infuriating. If we don't buy anyone in September and he talks up Sanogo, Gnarby and anyone else, if he talks that shit about his convictions and doing what's right for the club, not being dictated to by the press and fans, then someone needs to ask him about Vela, Djourou, Senderos, Denilson, Bendy, etc and go to town on him. What the heck happened with those players because his convictions lead him to believe hose players were the future of this club, yet he's gotten rid of them. He was wrong before, why is he right today? Why should we trust again?

Again I agree, it has been a waste of time, it's been going on years and has heeded no rewards, sure there's been the odd talent here and there but in reality no more than any club not following a youth policy strategy and we've wasted a lot of money as well on signing them and wages (even if we have got some back in transfers on some players).

Noone ever asks him the right questions, no one ever points out the past seasons and what has actually happened, his former players and his broken promises, all we get is patronising BS from him about how it's hard to make transfers, players aren't available, sometimes 3 clubs are involved, how the media wanted him to sign English players and now they want foreign ones....he's just doesn't get it and worse doesn't care about the fans.

The day he leaves will be a happy one for me, I can't stand the way he conducts himself or tries to build a team (or not as may be the case).

[Dicks and chicks]

didn't give vela a proper chance nor campbell , even though they are both better than giroud

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Yes.

[mastermind84]

I was on Team Vela since 2005, so no Wumget did not give him a proper chance.

The 4-3-3 killed his progress at Arsenal. Vela is a big time talent that could have helped us and Wumget messed with his development.

Glad he is doing well at Sociedad and I am sure he will move on to a bigger club soon. Just hope its not in the premiership.

He is the only non-Arsenal player I still root for to do well.

[mastermind84]

The other issue with Vela was Mexico constantly calling him up for pointless friendlies. He would travel to the other part of the world to play a Friendly on Wednesday, and would have no chance to play on Saturday. He needed to establish himself at the club level first before he left.

His career took off after leaving Arsenal and taking a sabbatical from Mexico.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Did we give Vela a proper chance? Are we giving Campbell a proper chance?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Probably didnt give him a proper chance, but to be fair he doesn't seem like the kind of player we want at the club anyway. Apparently his attitude stinks....doesn't get picked for Mexico anymore, has created a playboy/party boy image for himself.

Joel Campbell I just don't get that, if Wenger doesn't rate him at all why not just send him out on loan....instead of bringing him into the first team squad.

[Penguin]

We didn't give Vela a 'proper chance' but that's not such a big deal. It happens all the time, and letting Vela go is hardly the worst of the lot. Just look at Ferguson letting Pogba slip through his fingers :lol:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

How much mileage can you get out of such a debate! lol....

Fairness doesn't really come into it. It should be phrased like... did he get sufficient game time for the ability he had and level of performance he showcased. To be pedantic.

On the gooner podcast they were asking why we let Seb Larsson go.... some people waffle on about giving Upson a chance...Jay Emanuel Thomas....the list goes on. I Can't say I am genuinely fussed about a single one of them.

Though I did like Vela's trade mark chips....... and no I don't mean the kind you eat as he for a while grew an obsession with. Not a joke either....I read an interview from him years ago about becoming partial to eating McD's and Burger King.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Yes. We gave him ample chance.

[Cripps]

:lol:

NQ without his meds :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger OUT!

[Cripps]

NQ on his meds :bow:

[Letters]

I think his "meds" are mostly whisky and vodka.

[GP]

I think his "meds" are mostly whisky and vodka.

And all the chemicals that turned the frickin frogs gay!