Jack Wilshere and our future midfield

[Dr Singh]

The signing of Ozil has had many fantastic knock on effects for Arsenal Football Club.

One topic of interest is how the signing of Ozil may indeed completely divert the career path of Jack Wilshere.

Up til this point, many people have debated where they'd like to see Wilshere deployed and how he should best be utilized and groomed. He's always seemed like a natural number 10 given his technical ability, and could have been a valuable asset given his tenacity and aggression from the front. He's also shown himself to be more than capable when used in a deeper role, particularly with his exploits against Barcelona on the big stage.

Given that Ozil is only 24, and clearly light years ahead of any other number 10 on the planet, I think it's fair to say that Jack's development will finally take a certain pathway, and he will be groomed into a deeper midfielder. One could argue that Ozil could be an ideal role model for Jack, but long term it would make more sense for him to focus on developing his game to play a position where he can actually play 90 minutes every week.

Right now I'd say our best balanced midfield double pivot would in fact be Ramsey + Either Arteta or Flamini. Ramsey has proven himself to be a key man in our midfield over the last 6 months, and the natural defensive instincts of Arteta and Flamini best solidify the pivot. Long term I can see Wilshere and Ramsey developing as our double pivot, simply because that's the only position available to Jack in our team, and he's too talented and driven to not make it. Our current selection of 4 is actually ideal with two highly talented individuals competing with two more experienced and very professional players.

If that's the case, then perhaps it's easy to see why we didn't go for another CM over summer? If we did sign someone like Bender or Gustavo, then where would that leave Jack? I'm sure many feel he's a better option than Ramsey long term, but certainly not with Ramsey performing as he is currently.

I have no problem talent wise with a long term pairing of Wilshere and Ramsey. They are both individually fantastic options and have a strong work ethic. With experience they will develop a sound relationship and hopefully achieve a good balance. The obvious glaring deficiency in their pairing would be the lack of size and physical presence between them, but does that even matter anymore in this day and age?

How would you like to see our midfield develop, not only this season but with the next season in mind? With names like Khedira, Pogba, Gundogan and Bender still being thrown around, what would you be hoping for?

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I had to think to myself which Singh you were until I looked at your post count, lol.

I think your hypothesis on Ozil's influence is logical and I'm hoping that the pressure on him eases a little and he is allowed to develop his game surrounded by talents and out of the spot light a little. The press on England will periodically dig him out when the national team is lacklustre so its good if he can escape it whilst playing for us.

Hopefully, the more he acknowledges the strength of ability around him, the more he will stop trying to force the issue when he plays or do too much.

[JonasTC]

I think when people were screaming for a CM in the transfer window, they didnt expect Ramsey to come out guns blazing and Flamini actually doing a decent job from day 1.

Wilshere just needs to play a season without getting injuried all the time and then im sure we'll see the guy from the barca game back :)

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm sure he is intelligent enough and has enough ability to hone his skills with game time in the team and patience as you say Jonas. Towards the end of 2012 people were raving about Wilshere in the Arsenal team and I particularly remember John Cross Opining that he thinks that Wilshere is even better than he was before his injury.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Made the point a few days back that Wilshere will have to become Ozil's understudy. And, I think it's already playing out, as Jack's game certainly improved vs the Mackems over the weekend.

Apart from an early attempt to force his way through, he otherwise looked a bit settled, linking up with Ozil and making a few passes instead of his usual propensity to hang onto the ball too long.

[Nayan]

our best results came from a 4-4-1-1. Flat back four, then two powerful midfielders flanked by wingers, and then bergkamp +1 as a withdrawn striker/playmaker plus a runner.

There is no reason why the middle of the park could be (say) wilshere and ramsey behind Ozil. And those three wont always be available at the same time anyway

[LDG]

I'm not so sure that Jack is the cesc/ozil type of ball player anyway.

What he has, is balance, touch and hustle. He gets stuck in, brings the ball away, drives forward, sets the tempo and pings passes out. Whilst he can spot a pass, he's the engine in the midfield, as opposed to Ozil, who would be your no.10, creating the chances and being artistic.

Both Rmasey and Wilshire are reasonably similar, and that is why I think the pair will eventually be the "double pivot" behind Ozil.

[Nayan]

lets face it, if it werent for ramsey's excellent start this term, nobody would be putting him in the same bracket as wilshere nnd Ozil, and the talk would be on whom we shuld buy to eventually take over from arteta as the anchorman.

Instead we may now be looking at the english and welsh captaincy contenders doing one stays/one goes behind Ozil, and can pick from rossicky, Arteta, Flamini when we need to tinker.

Not sure why Diaby and denchpong are still in the squad to be honest

[LDG]

lets face it, if it werent for ramsey's excellent start this term, nobody would be putting him in the same bracket as wilshere nnd Ozil, and the talk would be on whom we shuld buy to eventually take over from arteta as the anchorman.

Instead we may now be looking at the english and welsh captaincy contenders doing one stays/one goes behind Ozil, and can pick from rossicky, Arteta, Flamini when we need to tinker.

Not sure why Diaby and denchpong are still in the squad to be honest

Pretty much.

Exciting times.

And of course, you need that depth in midfield too. So having Tets, Flams and Tom is not bad back up!

[JonasTC]

lets face it, if it werent for ramsey's excellent start this term, nobody would be putting him in the same bracket as wilshere nnd Ozil, and the talk would be on whom we shuld buy to eventually take over from arteta as the anchorman.

Instead we may now be looking at the english and welsh captaincy contenders doing one stays/one goes behind Ozil, and can pick from rossicky, Arteta, Flamini when we need to tinker.

Not sure why Diaby and denchpong are still in the squad to be honest

Diaby is a gonna be a monster if he can ever stay fit, so i understand why Wenger let him stick around, it was the same with RVP. Luckily Diaby is not a cunt, so he would hopefully stay, frimpong has no future here, should be sent out on loan in january and give him 6 months to prove himself in another premier league club.

[milla]

Diaby is a gonna be a monster if he can ever stay fit, so i understand why Wenger let him stick around, it was the same with RVP. Luckily Diaby is not a cunt, so he would hopefully stay, frimpong has no future here, should be sent out on loan in january and give him 6 months to prove himself in another premier league club.

You never know with Frimpong, if he gets enough games (and learns from it) he could become a beast perfect for crippling Scums and northern wankers. :coffee:

[BOBN]

lets face it, if it werent for ramsey's excellent start this term, nobody would be putting him in the same bracket as wilshere nnd Ozil, and the talk would be on whom we shuld buy to eventually take over from arteta as the anchorman.
When Ramsey was bought alot though he'd be the better player than Wilshere in the long term, he was really shining for the Welsh U21s. hes just fullfilling that prophecy tbh.

Meanwhile Wilshere relies on his merry band of Clive Tyldesleys, still harping back to that One Night In Barcelona :coffee:

[hobson's choice]

Basically Jack's a good player, but not to the level some of your think. Like some of you have said, his role on this team should be playing behind Ozil and Santi, and slightly ahead of Flamini, same as Ramsey.

For Jack and Ramsey for me, it's all about them keeping it simple.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Frimsting is not likely to make it here but I must say I am a little more comfortable with him on the bench than the Akpom's, Zelalem's(sp), Ryo's etc etc..... That said the general state of our first team cheerleaders bench is poor and it is painfully clear the manger is reluctant to use any of them in any situation. Queue the timely and routine sight of Monreal running on to the field as the game plays out.

There are different ways to play the number 10 role. Ozil's method is interesting because he is very willing and very good at taking up positions wide. If you saw a quick highlight of some of his games, you wouldn't know if he was a central midfielder or a winger. That is his edge over both Ramsey and Jack other than his acute precision and vision.

Ramsey's stats are phenomenal. In any given game he is making the most passes, successful tackles and making a habit of scoring. He has had the nous and energy to be able to harry the opponents deep in our own half yet get into goal scoring opportunities. Even with a player like Ramsey's fitness levels that requires an incredible ability to master and time your movement and positioning. Clearly it won't last forever but his is an extraordinary tale of progression.

If we had signed a player in the summer for 5 million 23 years old who had done what he is now, we would be rightfully commending the manager to the hills. Sorry. Turning this into a Rambo appreciation page. Although Sing is particularly in love with the bloke....

[torontogooner]

Jack would make his life so much easier if he just released the ball earlier. He picks up unnecessary injuries because he tries to bulldoze his way through.

[BOBN]

"Steven is a great role model," Wilshere told the club's official website. "He has been the heartbeat of Liverpool for years. He has also been the stand-out performer for England as well. He is a great role model for me.

"He was someone I looked up to when I was younger. He has 100 caps for England. For any young midfielder he is someone to base your game on and try to be like him. If I can get anywhere near as good as him and drive the team forward like he does, then I will be happy."
this is our problem tbh. Gerrard is a terrible role model. Its not enough that he failed with England, hes now a Pied Piper of ineptness. Leading the children to a life of headless chickenness and "driving the team forward".

Fabregas and Xavi had Guardiola to look up to. Maybe not as talented as Gerrard but a calm player who valued possession.

If somebody can sever him from Gerrards penis, and convince him he doesnt have the athleticism to be a Gerrard and that he could be better than Gerrard, we might be able to salvage a player.

[Nayan]

he was a fine leader in ukraine the other week. I just littlebit sicked up in my mouth.
true though

[Dr Singh]

Gerrard was a tremendous athlete and bigger and stronger than most other midfielders he came up against. Jack gets swatted around like a little fly. I wish Jack would look at Scholes as more of a role model, not just because they are of similar size but because I feel Jack has the talent to consistently control matches and dictate the tempo in ways Gerrard could not.

It's a good discussion seeing who would be an ideal role model for Wilshere.

I said it on AHFC over 6 months ago, but I see Bastian Schweinsteiger as the ideal role model for Ramsey. It sounded absurd to many at the time, but I do think they have many similarities in terms of style of play. Obviously Bastian is one of the best of our generation and is in many ways the ultimate midfield general, but I honestly believe Ramsey has the tools in his locker to fully develop into a similar kind of beast. The best thing about Bastian is he has no weakness. He is defensively solid in in the tackle, has great tactical positioning and awareness, flawless in possessing, a genius tactician and technically gifted enough to hurt any team in the final third. While Ramsey isn't at his level for any of these, he has made huge progress as an all round midfielder, and IMO will develop into a very complete package.

I wish I had as clear an idea of the path Wilshere is on. He currently seems directionless. I know he (and Rambo) will become his own player, but it would still be good if we had an idea of the sort of player he was shaping up to be.

[mastermind84]

Ramsey is becoming a massive physical presence.

In saying that, Jack and Ramsey will need to get their tactical acumen in balance so that they can play together.

I never understood the #10 thinking fans have for Jack when he is not a good goal scorer and does not create many chances.

[mastermind84]

this is our problem tbh. Gerrard is a terrible role model. Its not enough that he failed with England, hes now a Pied Piper of ineptness. Leading the children to a life of headless chickenness and "driving the team forward".

Fabregas and Xavi had Guardiola to look up to. Maybe not as talented as Gerrard but a calm player who valued possession.

If somebody can sever him from Gerrards penis, and convince him he doesnt have the athleticism to be a Gerrard and that he could be better than Gerrard, we might be able to salvage a player.
:cheers:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

The signing of Ozil has had many fantastic knock on effects for Arsenal Football Club.

One topic of interest is how the signing of Ozil may indeed completely divert the career path of Jack Wilshere.

Up til this point, many people have debated where they'd like to see Wilshere deployed and how he should best be utilized and groomed. He's always seemed like a natural number 10 given his technical ability, and could have been a valuable asset given his tenacity and aggression from the front. He's also shown himself to be more than capable when used in a deeper role, particularly with his exploits against Barcelona on the big stage.

Given that Ozil is only 24, and clearly light years ahead of any other number 10 on the planet, I think it's fair to say that Jack's development will finally take a certain pathway, and he will be groomed into a deeper midfielder. One could argue that Ozil could be an ideal role model for Jack, but long term it would make more sense for him to focus on developing his game to play a position where he can actually play 90 minutes every week.

Right now I'd say our best balanced midfield double pivot would in fact be Ramsey + Either Arteta or Flamini. Ramsey has proven himself to be a key man in our midfield over the last 6 months, and the natural defensive instincts of Arteta and Flamini best solidify the pivot. Long term I can see Wilshere and Ramsey developing as our double pivot, simply because that's the only position available to Jack in our team, and he's too talented and driven to not make it. Our current selection of 4 is actually ideal with two highly talented individuals competing with two more experienced and very professional players.

If that's the case, then perhaps it's easy to see why we didn't go for another CM over summer? If we did sign someone like Bender or Gustavo, then where would that leave Jack? I'm sure many feel he's a better option than Ramsey long term, but certainly not with Ramsey performing as he is currently.

I have no problem talent wise with a long term pairing of Wilshere and Ramsey. They are both individually fantastic options and have a strong work ethic. With experience they will develop a sound relationship and hopefully achieve a good balance. The obvious glaring deficiency in their pairing would be the lack of size and physical presence between them, but does that even matter anymore in this day and age?

How would you like to see our midfield develop, not only this season but with the next season in mind? With names like Khedira, Pogba, Gundogan and Bender still being thrown around, what would you be hoping for?

The fact of the matter is that Jack has been stagnating over the past few months. That's taking nothing away from his ability and potential because both are clearly high, however he was out for such a long time and while we expected him to slot back in with ease, he hasn't. Whether the time out had a psychological effect or whether he is still carrying the ill-effects of that injury, we don't really know. For someone who played like Xavi morphed with Iniesta, he's now playing like Denilson morphed with Bischoff.

He's exactly where Ramsey was a year ago; constantly over playing the ball, taking too many touches, trying to take every player on like he's Messi. But his body is not responding to what he wants to do in his brain. He's bulked up a lot but has that actually hindered him instead of helped? When he was leaner he was able to glide past players in quick fashion, evident that night against Barca when he schooled their midfield. Now he has bulked he's slightly slower and more mechanic on the ball.

I'm in 2 minds as to whether to keep playing him like we did with Ramsey until he eventually gets better, or give him a rest to ensure his ankle doesn't fuck up again. I'm thinking the latter but that's purely because we're in dire need of a trophy and we need players that are at 100% starting every game. Wilshere isn't and I'm not sure whether game time will get him there. It might actually be rest.

[Marc Overmars]

He clearly has ability but it needs to be harnessed properly, he's got too many bad habits right now. Not too worried because he's got years to develop and now we have Özil the expectation on Wheechair can hopefully subside.

[Penguin]

People were quick to write off Ramsey last season but now it looks like he's finally coming good. Give Wilshere time and he might do the same.

[LDG]

People were quick to write off Ramsey last season but now it looks like he's finally coming good. Give Wilshere time and he might do the same.

Pretty much.

[Nayan]

Maybe I'm missing the point but he is young, has had major interruptions due to injury and surgery and has to deal with a lot of four lions hype as well as the wishful thinking of the most hysterical and interweb loving CLub fans in the whole wide world ever.
After the odd duff game (and not even in an arsenal shirt) he has gone from the great white hope to the new diaby.

You people are insane. God help Ozil when he has an off day.

[Xhaka Can’t]

After making a complete arse of myself over Rambo, I'm going to reserve judgement on Jack.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

People were quick to write off Ramsey last season but now it looks like he's finally coming good. Give Wilshere time and he might do the same.

Who's writing him off? GW has this incredible ability of completely getting the wrong end of the stick. Truth is viewed as 'writing off'.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Who's writing him off? GW has this incredible ability of completely getting the wrong end of the stick. Truth is viewed as 'writing off'.

it wasnt just GW who were "writing him off" you only had too look at twitter, listen to fans in the pubs or at the ground. loads were writing him off, syaing he would never be good enough, should be sold/loaned out.

no one has a problem with people saying that x player isnt playing well and should be dropped for the next game etc. but there were a lot of arsenal fans taking that further with ramsey. some even said they wished he was dead. thats writing him off. and it happened.

[Özim]

Maybe I'm missing the point but he is young, has had major interruptions due to injury and surgery and has to deal with a lot of four lions hype as well as the wishful thinking of the most hysterical and interweb loving CLub fans in the whole wide world ever.
After the odd duff game (and not even in an arsenal shirt) he has gone from the great white hope to the new diaby.

You people are insane. God help Ozil when he has an off day.

To be honest he was way way way overhyped, he's not as good as that and that's why people are looking at him now and wondering why he's not as good as he should be.

He'll be a good player for sure, just don't think he'll be a great player.

[Nayan]

correction. 'three lions hype'

also correction: 'you people are *fucking* insane'

carry on

[LDG]

He'll have a stormer tonight.

[Nayan]

I seem to remember him being the only arsenal player left with any dignity when bayern came to our house and destroyed us.
He'll captain England one day. No doubt in my mind

[Ollie the Optimist]

arsenal fans hyped him up of course, every club does taht to their own players. but it was the media, the pundits, who really hyped him up and put pressure on him. when he came back from injury last season, of course people were excited and looking forward to having him back, but because the media have hyped him up as englands saviour, he didnt have the pressure of just arsenal fans, he had the pressure of england.

jack will come good. he had some outstanding games last season, and before his injury. hes only 21. just look at ramsey as to why its wise not to go to far in writing him off now. by all means critisice him when he plays badly, but lets not say he wont ever make it etc

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

it wasnt just GW who were "writing him off" you only had too look at twitter, listen to fans in the pubs or at the ground. loads were writing him off, syaing he would never be good enough, should be sold/loaned out.

no one has a problem with people saying that x player isnt playing well and should be dropped for the next game etc. but there were a lot of arsenal fans taking that further with ramsey. some even said they wished he was dead. thats writing him off. and it happened.

I'm on about Wilshere. Absolutely no Arsenal fan has written him off. In fact on the social media sites it's the gooners sticking up for him while others are writing him off.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I'm on about Wilshere. Absolutely no Arsenal fan has written him off. In fact on the social media sites it's the gooners sticking up for him while others are writing him off.


my mistake. misread your post

[Penguin]

Who's writing him off? GW has this incredible ability of completely getting the wrong end of the stick. Truth is viewed as 'writing off'.


I'm on about Wilshere. Absolutely no Arsenal fan has written him off. In fact on the social media sites it's the gooners sticking up for him while others are writing him off.

I said Ramsey was written off, not Wilshere.

Not all gooners are sticking up for Jack. Even here I've read posts saying we should sell him before everyone realises he's crap, or that he's just an average player. He's a 21 year old who has been shoved into the limelight aged 18 and has been disrupted by a long-term injury. Of course he's going to have slumps in his form.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I said Ramsey was written off, not Wilshere.

Not all gooners are sticking up for Jack. Even here I've read posts saying we should sell him before everyone realises he's crap, or that he's just an average player. He's a 21 year old who has been shoved into the limelight aged 18 and has been disrupted by a long-term injury. Of course he's going to have slumps in his form.

People who wanted him sold were posting just to get a reaction out of people. They are now banned I believe.

[Nayan]

so THAT is what he got banned for?

[Power n Glory]

We can’t get caught up in the long term predictions when assessing a players performance. If you said Ramsey was playing shit and shouldn’t be playing in the first based on that performance, there is nothing wrong with that. The exact same applies to Wilshere. Any player that’s having a negative effect on the team shouldn’t be playing. Cheseny has potential as a keeper but when we was dropping clangers he was a liability. Keeping him between the sticks for the sake of development but to the detriment of the team is madness. That’s where Wenger has gotten things wrong over the years.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Jack hasn't been moved to the wing for 'his development' like Ramsey has but there are important distinctions to be made in the 2/3 roles within that midfield 3 that Jack naturally needs time to work through and understand. There are nuances related to taking up a position closer to the strikers that are distinct from those in a position closer to the defenders and even a natural footballer needs time to hone the application of his skills to those roles in that respect. His partnepsrs in midfield have regularly changed to, from Cesc and Song, Ramsey, Arteta, Diaby (don't laugh) Rosicky, to Flamini and Ramsey again. If he is wise he will try to learn something from than many great players he has already played with.... Cesc, Arteta, Rosicky....Denilson, Bischoff......maybe Gerrard.

There is no doubt in my mind that once his injuries settle down we will see more consistency from him and his last run of good games was not so long ago that it is difficult to see him moving forward. I tend to think great players often recognise their faults, even before anyone has moaned about them, even if they are not going to sing about what they are from the roof tops. It is easy to think a repeated mistake is directly related to a lack of acknowledgement of a problem but that is a little over simplified. Errors are the result of bad habits are learned. They are not necessarily eradicated easily. It takes time to create good habits just as it does to rid yourself of bad ones.

I would argue Jack's improvement (and there was one in my honest opinion) against Sunderland was partly down to recognising he is over playing it and how needless that is in light of the genius he suddenly finds himself playing with in Ozil(I can't be arsed to source the umlaut!). The chance he created for Theo's header was well seen and even better executed. Even for England he saw a lot of potentially inviting passes but he failed to execute them. Had he done so and had Theo been in better finishing form the whole mood of that game and the stick he got in the aftermath might have been different.

I couldn't be more delighted we have both Jack and Ramsey at the club. One is our very own and one was bought for 5 million and to top it off I think Chamberlain is of their ilk in terms of raw talent. He has something of the power on the ball that Jack shows at times but has the speed that neither of the two posses allied with incredible shooting technique superior to both. Jack's development is still way down in a list of issues we have at the club. It would be nice if this was the only issue with the squad!

[LDG]

Nicely put.

A lot of it, I'm sure, is the fact he's been trying too hard. When he came back from the season out, I remember Arsene saying they were having to calm him down, as he was diving into challenges all over the place on the training ground.

The lad is just desperate to play football. Sometimes that means he's overcooking it.

[I am invisible]

Jack is one of those two deeper midfielders all day long for me - he's undoubtedly a creative, attacking talent when he's on form, but I think he's best able to express that through quickly turning defence into attack, and suddenly accelerating our tempo, and not necessarily through reeling off through-ball after through-ball like an Özil or Fabregas. I'm sure he'll still chip in with a few assists too, but pushing him too far forward is a waste of his talents, IMO.

Not really worried about his current form - Ramsey has fought back from worse, and had shown us less consistency and promise before he got injured, so I see no reason why Jack can't follow his example. His attitude and desire have always been spot on, and that will help him more than anything else. In the meantime, how nice that we don't actually have to fret about it too much, for once! The other guys are doing the business, so we can afford to ease him back in at a sensible pace.

[Dr Singh]

One thing Wilshere does have going for him though, is that for all his faults - Wenger is a master molder of a central midfielder.

Fabregas, Song, Flamini, Arteta etc all went through a quantum leap at some stage of their development where they just became "the shit". Ramsey is going through it now, and I have no doubt Wilshere will go through it too when he re-finds himself.

As to some of the other comments in this thread - I have not heard a single Gooner ever say Wilshere should be sold or loaned out. I don't think anyone doubts his raw ability or his dedication. It's just a matter of his form and fitness not being great at the moment, and most Gooners recognise that.

[Master Splinter]

Wilshere's first season would suggest he doesn't really needed to be moulded. He had everything apart from composure in the final third. And that's something that always comes last in a midfielder's development, as seen with Fabregas and Ramsey. But then again, Wilshere's best position will probably be coming from deep, so judging him on goals is silly.

As you said, it's a matter of form and fitness with Wilshere. But he seems to be getting that back in his last two games.

[Dr Singh]

My problem with the Wilshere Ramsey double pivot is that neither of them is an out-rightly a defensive midfielder. I know they are both shaping up to be pretty complete midfielders, but looking at both past and present great double pivots, ours just looks too offensive and lacks size. I'm not sure if it's a great idea long term, but it seems to be the only way we can fit them all in to any formation? ... Unless we waste Ozil on the wing of course, but I'm sure he'll slot in at AMC when Cazorla/Poldi returns.

Alonso Khedira

Busquetes Xavi

Carrick Fellaini

Schweinsteiger Martinez

Vieira Gilberto

Makalele Essien

Vidal Pirlo

Bender Gundogan


.... Wilshere Ramsey...?

[Nayan]

This is Real Madrid's Fellatino Perez slagging off a certain shortarse midfielder after flogging him to pay for Beckham(reminds me a lot of ozil/bale but that's another story)

"We will not miss Makélelé. His technique is average, he lacks the speed and skill to take the ball past opponents, and ninety percent of his distribution either goes backwards or sideways. He wasn't a header of the ball and he rarely passed the ball more than three metres. Younger players will arrive who will cause Makélelé to be forgotten.["

I've heard Gooners querying Wilshere in much the same way. 'Doesn't score enough or create enough. Passes very short' etc. and as for lacking size, Jack is taller than makalele and not much shorter than Gattuso. Plus his best performances for club and country have been with someone else as the attacking mid

[Dr Singh]

Comparing Jack to Makalele or Gatusso is difficult because they are obviously completely different players.

If you are comparing size, then Gatusso was the same size as Roy Keane and has about 2 stone of weight over Jack. He could physically bully and intimidate midfields in ways Jack never will.

Makalele was just an exception to every rule. He was similar size to Jack but could jump a mile and was still a strong guy. I know Jacks put on size but he still gets swatted around a lot in midfield and spends as much time on the floor as actually playing! He obviously gets targeted but hopefully he just learns to deal with it.

I wonder if Jack and Ramsey could strike up a partnership with a similar dynamic to Keane and Scholes.

[selassie]

I feel his performances are improving, he just lacks the final ball/that killer instinct. He's never really had it/or the need to have it because in his breakthrough season he basically shared "Water Carrier" duties with Song for Cesc, albeit he did a good job.

Of course his level of performance has dropped, largely in part to injury IMHO, not an excuse...but the boy has missed a lot of Football over the past few years.

Jack has amazing natural ability, I've no doubt in my mind he'll be playing at a high level pretty soon assuming he keeps himself fit.

[Nayan]

Comparing Jack to Makalele or Gatusso is difficult because they are obviously completely different players.

If you are comparing size, then Gatusso was the same size as Roy Keane and has about 2 stone of weight over Jack. He could physically bully and intimidate midfields in ways Jack never will.

Makalele was just an exception to every rule. He was similar size to Jack but could jump a mile and was still a strong guy. I know Jacks put on size but he still gets swatted around a lot in midfield and spends as much time on the floor as actually playing! He obviously gets targeted but hopefully he just learns to deal with it.

I wonder if Jack and Ramsey could strike up a partnership with a similar dynamic to Keane and Scholes.

there is no exception to a rule. If there was it wouldnt be a rule.
And the point was that football fans' fetich with being being and imposing is ridiculous. You're not the only one though - plenty of numpty managers have wasted huge sums on shit central midfielders who offer nothing other than speaking french, being tall and looking a bit nubian, like. You dopnt need to be 6foot 2 to play in midfield.

[Dr Singh]

Of course you don't need to be anything, but it helps having a physical presence in there.

Why do you choose to pick out the 'numpty managers' and just ignore every fantastic double pivot I mentioned above - every single one of which have a physical presence and more natural defensive instincts in there?

It's clearly part of a formula that works. Even Barcelona at their beautiful best had Yaya Toure and more recently Busquetes doing the dirty work.

[BOBN]

This is Real Madrid's Fellatino Perez slagging off a certain shortarse midfielder after flogging him to pay for Beckham(reminds me a lot of ozil/bale but that's another story)

"We will not miss Makélelé. His technique is average, he lacks the speed and skill to take the ball past opponents, and ninety percent of his distribution either goes backwards or sideways. He wasn't a header of the ball and he rarely passed the ball more than three metres. Younger players will arrive who will cause Makélelé to be forgotten.["

I've heard Gooners querying Wilshere in much the same way. 'Doesn't score enough or create enough. Passes very short' etc. and as for lacking size, Jack is taller than makalele and not much shorter than Gattuso. Plus his best performances for club and country have been with someone else as the attacking mid
Too bad he doesnt have Makeleles footballing IQ.

[Nayan]

Too bad he doesnt have Makeleles footballing IQ.

Makalele was in a 1990s the Nantes Atlantique B team at age 20. Wilshere was already in the middle of a modern champions league and premiership outfit and being taken seriously for England.

Allowing for age Wilshere's IQ is ahead of where Makalele's was as a young man. The Makalele you are comparing him to is the one who left a gaping hole in the middle of real madrid when they allowed him to go make chelsea tick.

So unless you were watching French football in the mid 90s and can honestly say that this guy:
http://www.fcnantes.com/img/makelele040209.jpg

was streets ahead of this guy:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/29/article-2270061-0D3A0061000005DC-541_468x286.jpg

Then I respectfully suggest you are talking out of your arse being a bit hasty in your assessment.

[Nayan]

I didnt ignore them. They speak for themselves. Pirlo used to play in front of Gatusso too by the way. And petit/vieira wasnt exactly shite.
Busquets? might be a six foot two but he weighs in around 70KG. That gives him the physique on a middle distance runner. Not sure what point youre trying to make there


What I did do was point out that sissoko, alou diarra, salif diao etc were, are and always will be- shit. They are not the only ones trading off being big and african either: cf Christopher Samba.
After them there are countless others whom nobody hears of because they are shit. They keep getting bought though because numpties (fans and managers alike) think too much about 'physical presence' and 'the new Vieira' or other such hokum.


Once again, there is much more to being a defensive midfielder than 'physical presence.'

[BOBN]

Makalele was in a 1990s the Nantes Atlantique B team at age 20. Wilshere was already in the middle of a modern champions league and premiership outfit and being taken seriously for England.

Allowing for age Wilshere's IQ is ahead of where Makalele's was as a young man. The Makalele you are comparing him to is the one who left a gaping hole in the middle of real madrid when they allowed him to go make chelsea tick.

So unless you were watching French football in the mid 90s and can honestly say that this guy:
http://www.fcnantes.com/img/makelele040209.jpg

was streets ahead of this guy:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/29/article-2270061-0D3A0061000005DC-541_468x286.jpg

Then I respectfully suggest you are talking out of your arse being a bit hasty in your assessment.
Well, you were the one who compared him to Makelele. Im telling you where that comparison falls flat.

And Wilshere is "taken seriously" on raw talent alone. Remains to be seen if he has the smarts to use that to become an effective player.

[Nayan]

My point exactly - its far to early to make a sweeping statement like wilshere in his early 20s can never be as good a midfielder as makalele, who lets face it you didnt know about until he was closer to 30.

You'll notice I didnt compare him to makalele. I actually pointed to Madrid's laughalbe criticisms / retrospective justification for selling maka and compared those inanities to the way in which some gooners have now turned on wilshere. The idea was to throw into sharp relief how (a) fickle and (b) stupid certain 'gooners' can be.

For the record though I think wilshere, like rooney for example is one of those footballers who understands every team members jobs better than most and does indeed have a fine 'footballing brain.'

[Dr Singh]

Pirlo and Gatusso were both deep lying CMs regardless of who was ahead of who. Pirlo and Gatusso actually has a similar natural balance to it that Arteta and Flamini would have. I have no doubt those two would be a very solid midfield and perhaps our best option in this system if it wasn't for Ramsey being in such irrepressible form. Fair point about Busquetes being a pussy compared to everyone else mentioned, but many consider him as the finest DCM in the world and he's got a dirty cynical side to his game for sure. I hate Busquetes but I'd feel a lot happier long term if we had someone like him (minus the cheating) partnering Ramsey/Wilshere in the middle, because we would have the natural balance I'm saying we lack.

Who said anything other than Petit and Vieira being utterly world class? That's the exact sort of midfield dynamic I would love at our club, and one that our system demands with this 4231 formation. I can see Ramsey being one half of that, but I'm not sure whether Jack would be an ideal partner for him long term despite his obvious talent and quality.

Once again, who is saying we should have lumps like the names you've mentioned? All the combinations I mentioned include HIGHLY technically gifted players, who are also balanced by being very powerful. For this system to work, you need both. My primary concern is long term if we look to develop Jack and Ramsey as our double pivot - whether they'd have enough to dominate a midfield due of Vidal and Pirlo for sake of argument. I am not questioning their technical ability. I'm saying that the VERY BEST midfield double pivots have technique combined with a certain amount of physicality that ours may lack.


I didnt ignore them. They speak for themselves. Pirlo used to play in front of Gatusso too by the way. And petit/vieira wasnt exactly shite.
Busquets? might be a six foot two but he weighs in around 70KG. That gives him the physique on a middle distance runner. Not sure what point youre trying to make there


What I did do was point out that sissoko, alou diarra, salif diao etc were, are and always will be- shit. They are not the only ones trading off being big and african either: cf Christopher Samba.
After them there are countless others whom nobody hears of because they are shit. They keep getting bought though because numpties (fans and managers alike) think too much about 'physical presence' and 'the new Vieira' or other such hokum.


Once again, there is much more to being a defensive midfielder than 'physical presence.'

[Dr Singh]

Wilshere can be as good as any midfielder England have ever produced.

But we need a Makalele. Wilshere can never be a Makalele.

I really have no idea why people are comparing the two, other than to make a point that small guys can excel at DCM. While this can be true on exceptions, I think it's fair to say that Makalele + Yaya Toure would be a more balanced double pivot than Makalele + Wilshere/Ramsey.

Wilshere/Ramsey + Yaya Toure would probably be even better than both in this system.

Hence I'm raising the question - do Wilshere and Ramsey have the natural balance to be our long term solution to our double pivot?


My point exactly - its far to early to make a sweeping statement like wilshere in his early 20s can never be as good a midfielder as makalele, who lets face it you didnt know about until he was closer to 30.

You'll notice I didnt compare him to makalele. I actually pointed to Madrid's laughabe criticisms of maka and compared those inanities to the way ion which some gooners have turned on wilshere.

For the record though I think wilshere, like rooney for example is one of those footballers who understands every team members jobs better than most and does indeed have a fine 'footballing brain.'

[Montyzuma]

In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[LDG]

In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Aye.

I usually start with the tail first.

[Nayan]

In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.

quite so

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

It's an interesting debate and I think some of it comes down to what you regard as the 'double pivot's' primary purpose or objective. If it is to detect, destroy and counter then a Maka-Toure partnership is preferable. If the prime emphasis is to hold and counter, then something like Ramsey and Wilshere may be preferable, although it hasn't escaped me that the former two have proved everything in the game and the latter nothing yet.

I do sense that our collective defensive strategy is based on strategically outnumbering opponents in midfield and pressing them at crucial times and in that sense a player in the Maka mould is less pertinent although obviously a valuable asset in any squad. So many of the goals we have conceded in the last two seasons have been down to individual errors, because what we do collectively works, when we are committed to it.

Wilshere can never be a Maka primarily because his skill set means no manager would ever use him in the exact same way. Ie, he has a lot more about him, but that is not to marginalise the positional understanding the little Frenchman had. It was quite profound and only second to his ability to thwart you. There can't be many players that it would prove more difficult to get past.

We need time to see how he develops but with Ramsey's numbers right now (as well as what we see with our own eyes) mean he can be played comfortably in any position. Anyone could slip into the double pivot with him and he can even be given the holding role on his own right now. He is covering that much ground, passing so well and winning that many tackles (95% so far this season) that it really opens the options up. He is basically coming away with the ball every time he pokes his toe out and that's without mentioning his goal tally. That's why you need to take a longer term view and keep an eye on how he does to determine where he might be in the long run. Encouragingly though, most these stats extend beyond the beginning of this season and into the back end of last. More evidence that it is genuine improvement as opposed to fleeting good form.

[Dr Singh]

Monty that comparison is completely off. It's like calling Vieira and Bergkamp our double pivot. Iniesta has always been an advanced playmaker and never a double pivot player.

Xavi has always had Yaya/Kieta/Busquetes balancing it out. Even for Spain, Xavi has Busquetes AND Alonso behind him.

No top team has 2 small guys in the double pivot. This is a modern day fact.

If the opportunity came to sign Sami Khedira for sake of argument, I'd slot him in next to Ramsey/Jack and be delighted, even if it relegates one of them to the bench.


In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Dr Singh]

It's interesting looking at Man Utd right now.

In Fellaini and Carrick they have close to what I'd call an ideal double pivot. It's only lacking some pace and creativity, but Rooney becomes the key player for them in that number 10 role, linking the play between midfield and attack.

A slightly different and even better one would be Schweinsteiger and Alonso. That's probably close to being perfect for me.

[Power n Glory]

Ramsey and Wilshere need to work on their positioning and reading the flow of a game. That’s my main concern over physicality. Both will drift up field or to wider areas in search of the killer pass or goal instead of looking for pockets of space in the middle to pick off passes and supply the passes and support to the wider areas. You often see this vacuum of space in the middle of the park and for a team that’s about possession and short passing, that just shouldn’t happen. They’re movement is undisciplined and it’s why the fluidity of our play has gone and teams can sometimes mount attack after attack against us. The centre of the pitch should be our hub and everything should flow from there.

Rosicky just works better in the role because he knows to stay centre and provide the quick passes and support. While he’s out, the pair need to work on this. Learn patience and stop forcing passes or dribbles from bad positioning. Keep it simple and learn each other’s movement. It takes a flurry of passes to build an attack but it seems like they both go for the one killer move or look to move up the pitch too quickly leaving us vulnerable to counters.

[Nayan]

rossicky looks good there now but was shit/injured every season between 2007/08 and last year. He refers to his goals as "collectors' items" in ad admisssion of how rare they are.

So far every vaguely sensible criticism of ramsey+wilshere looks like it will be eradicated with experience. The rest (not big enough, black enough, etc) are not sensible

[BOBN]

So far every vaguely sensible criticism of ramsey+wilshere looks like it will be eradicated with experience.
With Ramsey it looks likely. Wilshere hasnt improved a lick in the last 2-3 years.

Same thing is happening with that MacEachran boy at Chelsea, hes nowhere near. People are so desperate for Englands own Xavi. This Great White Hope scramble. When he was 16 people like Bob Wilson were saying hes better than Fabregas at the same age, at 21-22 he couldnt lace that mans boots. Hes got alot to do this Wilshere.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

The thing about Wilshere is that England need him to be this creative force and dominating games but we don't, we only need him to carve out an effective niche. Thankfully there are enough young players for England to get carried away with whilst Wilshere finds his game.

[Dr Singh]

Martinez, Bender, Busquetes, Khedira, Carrick, Fernandinho, Sandro, Mikel

Every top team has 1 unquestionable defensive midfielder present in their pivot. We'll probably see Arteta/Flamini fulfilling this defensive role in our side, and subsequently being paired with an all action Ramsey/Wilshere for the majority of the season.

For Ramsey and Jack to be our long term midfield pairing, one of them will have to focus heavily on the defensive side of their game. If one of them does this, then it could certainly work. Despite his goals, I can see Ramsey developing into this player for us in a while. His positional sense has vastly improved despite his all energy action game.

Right now at least I have no real concern with our midfield options. Those 4 will play 90% of our matches. Diaby can play for the odd game when he's fit to give them a break, and Rosicky is capable of dropping in. It's pretty much an ideal scenario for the moment.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They are defensive midfielders in name but most of those have more ability than just being 'destroyers'. I don't think it's fair to put Fernandinho because Man City have achieved very little with him yet (and nor would they so early in to this season). Mikel is the only one there that I would say is liimited to pure defensive ability.

[JonasTC]

The only way Ramsey and Wilshere could have a future of sharing the midfield together, would be if Ramsey accepted the role of a holding midfielder, he has the skillset and physique to become an amazing holding midfielder, but after tasting the sweetness of going forward and scoring goals, i dont think we're gonna see that. Wilshere i see as a player who can, in the future, have the ability to control the game as a nr8, but he needs a holding midfielder besides him.

[Dr Singh]

With Ramsey it looks likely. Wilshere hasnt improved a lick in the last 2-3 years.

Same thing is happening with that MacEachran boy at Chelsea, hes nowhere near. People are so desperate for Englands own Xavi. This Great White Hope scramble. When he was 16 people like Bob Wilson were saying hes better than Fabregas at the same age, at 21-22 he couldnt lace that mans boots. Hes got alot to do this Wilshere.

Bit harsh though considering how badly injuries have hampered his development.

Fabregas was something spectacularly special though and can hardly be the benchmark.

Wilshere will develop into a very different player. He seems more Iniesta than Xavi in terms of style of play, hence I'm not convinced being a double pivot player is ideally suited to him.

[Nayan]

The thing about Wilshere is that England need him to be this creative force and dominating games but we don't, we only need him to carve out an effective niche. Thankfully there are enough young players for England to get carried away with whilst Wilshere finds his game.
Woy can carry on bumming cleverly in that regard.

[BOBN]

Just a laughable player this one.

Is he the worst player in the world of the ones people think are good?

[GP]

Cool bump bro haha lol jk you suck,

[BOBN]

^ Terrible poster

[Özim]

^ Terrible poster

:great post:

[Özim]

Not a fan of Wilshere, highly overrated IMO, there's so much wrong with his game at the moment and there's no place for him in the team IMO. Seems to play a lot though and 95% of the time seems to disappoint and make key errors.

Need to pull his socks up or ship out.

[Niall_Quinn]

No lessons learned by many. Lucky the Wilshere out lobby doesn't have responsibility for hiring and firing or the following players would have long since departed:

Ramsey
Koscielny
Szay&2hjsu
Mertesacker
Rosicky

And they want Ozil gone too. And Giroud.

I think everyone likes Sagna and agrees he can stay.

So:

-------------- Sagna ---

Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna

Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna

--------- Sagna --- Sagna

Bench: Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna

Manager: Owen Coyle

[Power n Glory]

Add Walcott to your list!

[Özim]

No lessons learned by many. Lucky the Wilshere out lobby doesn't have responsibility for hiring and firing or the following players would have long since departed:

Ramsey
Koscielny
Szay&2hjsu
Mertesacker
Rosicky

And they want Ozil gone too. And Giroud.

I think everyone likes Sagna and agrees he can stay.

So:

-------------- Sagna ---

Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna

Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna

--------- Sagna --- Sagna

Bench: Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna

Manager: Owen Coyle

One lesson I've learnt, smoking kills.

[Niall_Quinn]

Add Walcott to your list!

Most didn't want him gone. I did. Not because of what he did on the pitch, because of what he did off it. But the point is we all have lessons to learn, me, you, the rest. Some don't want to see it.

[Niall_Quinn]

One lesson I've learnt, smoking kills.

It's cancer that kills, not the smoking.

[Niall_Quinn]

The funny thing is, Sagna's probably off in the summer. So some posters here will literally hate every single player at the club.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Wilshere will one day show himself as even better than Ramsey.

[Özim]

It's cancer that kills, not the smoking.

Problem is smoking causes cancer :(

[Özim]

Wilshere will one day show himself as even better than Ramsey.

Personally I doubt it, I always saw the potential in Ramsey even before the injury.

I just don't get Wilshere, there's so little end product with him and defensively he's a liability, what I also don't like is almost everything he does seems to involve going through the middle of the defence, I guess that's the consequence of growing up through the youth scheme with Wenger in charge.

He's basically been massively hyped because he's English, might be a decent footballer but that's it IMO, when he had his spell at Bolton I was pretty underwhelmed personally.

[IBK]

Ramsey's certainly demonstrated that we need to give Wilshere time. Almost a carbon copy in terms of injuries blighting his development. I think Wilshere isn't really doing enough to justify being first choice MF - and I would dearly love to see Ox or Santi tried alongside the Flam in CM, but I ain't writing him off yet.

[Power n Glory]

Wilshere is inconsistent at the moment and shouldn’t be an automatic first team starter. He has loads of potential but which young first teamer doesn’t? Over the last 10 years we’ve seen plenty of young team players come and go and we don’t know what’s on the cards for his career. He’s still got a long way to go, he’s struggling and I still say it was a mistake to reward him with that massive contract. We should be keeping our young players hungry and dish out the big contracts when they start producing consistently.

If he sorts out his decision making in front of goal, starts to learn how to use his right foot, learns when and when not to dribble, sorts out his positional awareness, he’ll be a good little player. He’s still very raw.

[Fist of Lehmann]

He's gone backwards during his injury. Now he needs to relearn some things, not necessarily his technical skills but his pitchcraft. Understandable that he feels the need to make up for lost time, but his first instinct these days is to take a few touches.

Watch back his performance against Barca (the one everybody raves about) and it's clear it's a much more measured and mature performance. And it was notable because of who it was against. Too many players flatter to deceive, look like world-beaters against mediocre opposition and then flop against quality. Jack played defensive midfield against Barcelona, widely regarded as one of the best attacking midfields in the world at that time. And he wasn't out of place.

It's that kind of performance that still has people believing. Ramsey is a case in point. Prior to his renaissance he was losing the ball more than any other player in the team. Now he's a f*cking beast.

Jack can be a frustrating player to watch right now.
He needs to refocus and tweak his game, but he is well capable of it.

[GP]

Out for 6 weeks.

:rolleyes:

[selassie]

So injury prone. It's a real shame.

[Munchies]

He was a bit shit recently.

Ramsey is coming back anyway

:coffee:

[selassie]

He was a bit shit recently.

Ramsey is coming back anyway

:coffee:

Yeah he's been pretty poor all season, I do feel that injuries are playing a massive part in that though. I still believe we have a gem of a player in Jack.

[JonasTC]

Looking forward to the amazing Arteta/Flamini midfield :bow:

[AFC Leveller]

Sick note. This many injuries at this stage of his career cannot be a good thing.

[Marc Overmars]

Wheelchair. :lol:

Bye.

[Munchies]

Looking forward to the amazing Arteta/Flamini midfield :bow:

this is why Wenger got in Kallstrom,

Arteta/Kallstrom :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

You know Kallstrom is probably better than Wheelchair anyway.

[selassie]

You know Kallstrom is probably better than Wheelchair anyway.

:o

Probably true! ;)

[selassie]

this is why Wenger got in Kallstrom,

Arteta/Kallstrom :bow:

Arteta/Kallstrom partnership would give the Cesc/Song partnership a run for it's money in terms of slowness!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Two-snails-cross-a-wooden-veranda-in-Oberbeuren-southern-Germany-via-AFP-512x345.jpg

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I think this pretty much confirms the end of our title bid. Yes mathematically it's still possible but we're all old and experienced enough to know that you don't win the title with 3 key players out, especially when other teams have ridiculous depth.

When we look back at this season in years to come it will be the January window which once again led to our downfall. So pissed off.

[Munchies]

I think this pretty much confirms the end of our title bid. Yes mathematically it's still possible but we're all old and experienced enough to know that you don't win the title with 3 key players out, especially when other teams have ridiculous depth.

When we look back at this season in years to come it will be the January window which once again led to our downfall. So pissed off.

Wilshere is shit, massively over-rated

[Power n Glory]

Idiot needs to haul his ass off when injured. He decided to play on again.

[Özim]

Ah well, no great loss on the pitch for us and from his point of view it gives him enough time to add to his already extensive tattoo collection I guess and catch up with his smoking buddies.

[Özim]

Wilshere is shit, massively over-rated

Not in the world of tattoo's, they see him as one of the up and coming stars.

[fakeyank]

This is a blessing in disguise for us. This probably means more game time for Santi, Ox and Rosicky down the middle! And do not forget, we have Kallstrom who can play there as well!

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Things are so black and white on here.

Granted he's not played well and has been in bad form for a lot of this season but it's way too early to write him off or call him shit. As we all know Ramsey looked just as terrible at times last season.

Part of the problem seems to be that he's trying too much at times (too many mazy runs that go nowhere) and like Ozil, he's suffering from an inherent lack of runners in the team. His passing is actually nearly on par with Ozil's in terms of quality. I'm confident he'll come good.

[Özim]

There's a few problems with his game IMO:

1) Sloppy passing - the amount of times he gives simple balls away is shocking for a player supposedly so talented, I've never seen a player people rate this highly give the ball away so much

2) Poor tracking back, tackling and getting caught on the ball - there's no discipline in his game, he offers poor cover and gets beaten way too easily and when he does tackle it's not generally very good

3) Try to play everything through the centre of the defence - there's no variety to his game, he looks for passes through the centre and makes runs at the centre of the defence, it's often pointless as it's very hard to get through those areas

4) Very little end product - Doesn't score enough goals or create enough for a player who is suppose to be creative

I think he's gone backwards and watching him play is often torture because of his careless passing, poor cover and poor tackling, it cost us goals which isn't good.

From a personal view point, I'm kinda glad I won't have to watch him putting in poor performances on a regular basis for a while.

[JonasTC]

Dont try to be positive in here!!1 :fury:

[BOBN]

Mark Saggers on talksport just said England need to cut and run regarding Wilshere. We need to do the same.

£15m would be a good amount for him, if we can get it.

[Marc Overmars]

Mark Saggers on talksport just said England need to cut and run regarding Wilshere. We need to do the same.

£15m would be a good amount for him, if we can get it.

15m is a bit optimistic, players who go for that much usually have at least one trait to their game they excel at.

[Niall_Quinn]

Out for 6 weeks.

:rolleyes:

This is enough. We need to tell the that shit mob run by Hodgson they can fuck off with their bullshit friendlies. International football is a joke that somehow has a free license to prey on professional football clubs. The whole International scene exists purely to keep a handful of child molesters in the lap of luxury. If they want to top quality sportsmen to turn up to their pointless events then they should pay, just like the fans have to pay to see players turn out for their clubs. Fucking leeches.

In other news that should delight the handful of wankers here who are constantly doing down the club, the Daily Myra Hindley has managed to heap more shit (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2574534/German-fans-turn-Ozil-Co-unconvincing-win-Chile.html) on Ozil in their ongoing campaign to kill his career. This on top of the brilliant news that Wilshere is injured - what a day for the assholes. Now if only we can lose to Everton :pray:

[Xhaka Can’t]

He was a bit shit recently.

Ramsey is coming back anyway

:coffee:

Should we have a sweepstake on how long he lasts?

I'm going with 27 minutes.

edit: Scratch that. Injured in pre match warmup.

[Power n Glory]

It's an impact injury so nothing to worry about. He'll a be back but really needs to think about his playing style.

[Özim]

This is enough. We need to tell the that shit mob run by Hodgson they can fuck off with their bullshit friendlies. International football is a joke that somehow has a free license to prey on professional football clubs. The whole International scene exists purely to keep a handful of child molesters in the lap of luxury. If they want to top quality sportsmen to turn up to their pointless events then they should pay, just like the fans have to pay to see players turn out for their clubs. Fucking leeches.

In other news that should delight the handful of wankers here who are constantly doing down the club, the Daily Myra Hindley has managed to heap more shit (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2574534/German-fans-turn-Ozil-Co-unconvincing-win-Chile.html) on Ozil in their ongoing campaign to kill his career. This on top of the brilliant news that Wilshere is injured - what a day for the assholes. Now if only we can lose to Everton :pray:

There's a World Cup coming, how is an International manager suppose to build a team and pick his squad if he can't see them perform together? I don't like friendlies however at this time so close to the World Cup it's understandable, it is after all the most prestigious trophy in the game of football. As for the paying, it should be an honour to play for you country at the highest level and has always been part and parcel of football, players don't have to go if they don't want to but clearly they do, clubs don't get paid for their players in any other sport either when picked for their International teams.

It's not their fault Wilshere gets injured if someone blows on him.

[BOBN]

15m is a bit optimistic, players who go for that much usually have at least one trait to their game they excel at.
Dont get me wrong i'm well aware hes a nothing player, but i'm hoping the Engerland hype hasnt totally worn off yet.

We could stroll into the Baltic states blindfolded and walk out with a player of equal ability and style for about £4m

[Chippy]

Wilshere is shit, massively over-rated
That's a bit harsh Munch boy!
Even if he is a bit off the pace at the moment, we really cannot afford another fucking injury! We are cursed! How ironic if Klit-storm came in and turned our season around! LOL!

[Niall_Quinn]

There's a World Cup coming, how is an International manager suppose to build a team and pick his squad if he can't see them perform together? I don't like friendlies however at this time so close to the World Cup it's understandable, it is after all the most prestigious trophy in the game of football. As for the paying, it should be an honour to play for you country at the highest level and has always been part and parcel of football, players don't have to go if they don't want to but clearly they do, clubs don't get paid for their players in any other sport either when picked for their International teams.

It's not their fault Wilshere gets injured if someone blows on him.

It might not be their "fault" but it's their responsibility. They should have to pay compensation then this stupid shit would clear up overnight. Anyway, it makes no odds if the hapless cunt Hodgson gets zero or a hundred friendlies, he's got fuck all chance of even getting out of the group let alone winning it. Complete waste of our time, effort and money and somebody should have to carry the can for that. In any other industry you pay if you fuck something up.

[Injury Time]

It might not be their "fault" but it's their responsibility. They should have to pay compensation then this stupid shit would clear up overnight. Anyway, it makes no odds if the hapless cunt Hodgson gets zero or a hundred friendlies, he's got fuck all chance of even getting out of the group let alone winning it. Complete waste of our time, effort and money and somebody should have to carry the can for that. In any other industry you pay if you fuck something up.
*cough*CEOs of certain banks*cough*

[Niall_Quinn]

*cough*CEOs of certain banks*cough*

I had assumed somebody had killed all those bastards by now.

[Özim]

It might not be their "fault" but it's their responsibility. They should have to pay compensation then this stupid shit would clear up overnight. Anyway, it makes no odds if the hapless cunt Hodgson gets zero or a hundred friendlies, he's got fuck all chance of even getting out of the group let alone winning it. Complete waste of our time, effort and money and somebody should have to carry the can for that. In any other industry you pay if you fuck something up.

Pay compensation for a player who's injury prone? Come on be realistic, doesn't happen in any other sport and I'm not sure why it should in football either, he's always getting injured, doesn't take much for him to be out and it's not their fault he gets injured on the pitch, that's out of their control, players gets tackled, some are injury prone.

If they paid us for our players getting injured every International break we'd be richer than Man City.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We can and probably will get compensation, there's not much doubt about that.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Although it will be of little comfort, Arsenal will be compensated financially for the injury and the Premier League club will not have to pay for the midfielder's wages – reported at around some £100,000 per week – while he is sidelined, with the money coming from the FA's insurers.

It's Kallstrom Time.

[Niall_Quinn]

We can and probably will get compensation, there's not much doubt about that.

But it will be from insurance, won't it? So the taxpayer will end up paying that. There should be some sanction against the fuckers who organise these meaningless games. They are the guilty party, not the taxpayer.

[Niall_Quinn]

You can see what a classy guy our manager is from his comments in the media today. Same can't be said about that cunt Hodgson who left Wilshere on the pitch after he was injured. In a NOTHING game. This is ludicrous.

[Özim]

You can see what a classy guy our manager is from his comments in the media today. Same can't be said about that cunt Hodgson who left Wilshere on the pitch after he was injured. In a NOTHING game. This is ludicrous.

If a player is injured it's for him to say he can't carry on, if Wilshere said he could how was Hodgson to know he was injured? When a player goes down the player usually makes the call as to whether he's able to carry on, unless he clearly can't.

Hodgson wouldn't have left him on if he knew he was injured, why would he?

[Power n Glory]

Wenger has made the same mistake as Hodgson and let Wilshere play on after being misled about the extent of his injury. He said sometimes you have to trust the player when he says he can play on. Wishere just needs to learn to come off if he thinks something is wrong.

[Xhaka Can’t]

When you are playing for your international place in a WC year, you are unlikely to do that. The manager should have taken him off.

[Letters]

Yeah, you definitely wouldn't have criticised Wenger for the exact same thing...

Not you <_<, Zim.

[I am invisible]

Pay compensation for a player who's injury prone? Come on be realistic, doesn't happen in any other sport and I'm not sure why it should in football either, he's always getting injured, doesn't take much for him to be out and it's not their fault he gets injured on the pitch, that's out of their control, players gets tackled, some are injury prone.


It may not happen much in sport, but it's pretty much the basis of all negligence law - reasonable foreseeability, and all that. If you have prior knowledge that someone is prone to injury, and you put them in a situation / give them a task to do where they're more likely to get injured (or, in this case, fail to act if you've just witnessed them getting injured, and then leave them to carry on doing the same task for nearly another hour), then you're on pretty shaky ground. Up until now I would imagine most sports clubs have refrained from making claims because of the floodgates argument, but I wouldn't mind betting that this is something that we'll start to see more and more of now players' wages are getting more expensive and harder for clubs to simply write-off?

[Özim]

Yeah, you definitely wouldn't have criticised Wenger for the exact same thing...

Not you <_<, Zim.

Exactly right :lol:

No I wouldn't, playing someone when they've just come back from injury is one thing, but if a player goes down gets up and says he's fine and then doesn't appear injured how is the manager suppose to know he's not ok?

[Özim]

It may not happen much in sport, but it's pretty much the basis of all negligence law - reasonable foreseeability, and all that. If you have prior knowledge that someone is prone to injury, and you put them in a situation / give them a task to do where they're more likely to get injured (or, in this case, fail to act if you've just witnessed them getting injured, and then leave them to carry on doing the same task for nearly another hour), then you're on pretty shaky ground. Up until now I would imagine most sports clubs have refrained from making claims because of the floodgates argument, but I wouldn't mind betting that this is something that we'll start to see more and more of now players' wages are getting more expensive and harder for clubs to simply write-off?

It could be argued however that the clubs shouldn't be paying players these wages in the 1st place, maybe they would get compensation if players weren't so overpaid.

By doing what you're suggesting you'd effectively end up discriminating against players who are injury prone, because why would you pick a player who is more likely to get injured and going to cost you money?

It's always been the same and I don't see why it should change to be honest, all clubs have to deal with it, we've got a number of injury prone players we carry every year, should we not pay them when they injured as well, or ask them for compensation?

We get injuries regularly in our squad, I'm not surprised they get injured on International duty because some of these guys gets injured every other week at club level, it's not really anyone's fault, if you're injury prone you're injury prone, why should someone else have to pay up for that, especially when you choose to go and play (players don't have to play, they can opt out).

[I am invisible]

Wenger has made the same mistake as Hodgson and let Wilshere play on after being misled about the extent of his injury. He said sometimes you have to trust the player when he says he can play on. Wishere just needs to learn to come off if he thinks something is wrong.
He's definitely made the same mistake in the past, but the difference is Wenger / Arsenal will cover his his wages if the injury happens while he's going about club business - this is basically about holding national teams to the same standards: if you're going to call players up for national duty, that's fine - just be aware of the risks, and be prepared to pay for it if you ignore them.

[Power n Glory]

He's definitely made the same mistake in the past, but the difference is Wenger / Arsenal will cover his his wages if the injury happens while he's going about club business - this is basically about holding national teams to the same standards: if you're going to call players up for national duty, that's fine - just be aware of the risks, and be prepared to pay for it if you ignore them.

But Wenger isn't blaming the England medical staff either. He's saying almost the same thing as he said when Wilshere was layed off for a while.

[Özim]

He's definitely made the same mistake in the past, but the difference is Wenger / Arsenal will cover his his wages if the injury happens while he's going about club business - this is basically about holding national teams to the same standards: if you're going to call players up for national duty, that's fine - just be aware of the risks, and be prepared to pay for it if you ignore them.

Club football isn't the same as International football, you have to pay players to keep them in club football, at International level you pick players by nationality you have no say as to how much they get paid or what contracts they are on. Why should they pay someone's 100k wages just because the club had to overpay them.

The best you're going to get is for them to pay the wages for the time they are with the International team, not how long they are out if they get injured, if the player chooses to accept the invitation to play then he knows the risks, maybe he should pay since he's not obliged to go?

If I have a job and then go on holiday and break a leg, I get my sick leave and then don't get paid the rest of the time, same should apply to players outside club football, problem is these greedy so and so's won't agree to that.

[I am invisible]

It could be argued however that the clubs shouldn't be paying players these wages in the 1st place, maybe they would get compensation if players weren't so overpaid.

By doing what you're suggesting you'd effectively end up discriminating against players who are injury prone, because why would you pick a player who is more likely to get injured and going to cost you money?

It's always been the same and I don't see why it should change to be honest, all clubs have to deal with it, we've got a number of injury prone players we carry every year, should we not pay them when they injured as well, or ask them for compensation?

We get injuries regularly in our squad, I'm not surprised they get injured on International duty because some of these guys gets injured every other week at club level, it's not really anyone's fault, if you're injury prone you're injury prone, why should someone else have to pay up for that, especially when you choose to go and play (players don't have to play, they can opt out).

That's the other reason why I think no one ever claims for these things - the law might be on your side, but, as you say, the simple solution for the national sides would be to simply stop picking that player, do they probably hold off out of fear. I really don't think it would come to that though if anyone challenged it? I mean, we're not talking about having to cover a whole squad's wages for a whole season here - we're talking about one or two players' wages here and there for a few weeks. The FA have more than enough money to cover it, and they'll probably have insurance too. Plus they'll be making far more out of these players in endorsements than they'll ever lose in compensation, so I doubt it's in their best interests to start discriminating?

And, yes, clubs should absolutely pay their players wages when they get injured playing for them, and clubs DO carry on paying their players wages when they get injured playing for them. As I said above, this is simply about holding national sides to the same standards that every other employer in the land is held to...

[Letters]

Exactly right :lol:

No I wouldn't, playing someone when they've just come back from injury is one thing, but if a player goes down gets up and says he's fine and then doesn't appear injured how is the manager suppose to know he's not ok?
How is the manager suppose to know he's not ok if he's coming back from injury, has passed the fitness tests and says he's OK?
You've definitely criticised Wenger for that.
Either way the player has to take some responsibility and be honest about whether he's OK to play.

[Power n Glory]

I think clubs make enough money from the fans and even though a lot of money is made from International football, events like the World Cup is a treat for football fans. It wouldn't be right for already rich clubs to impede on that. I don't see the benefit of fines from a fans perspective. Would just mess up a really enjoyable event that only happens every so often.

[Power n Glory]

How is the manager suppose to know he's not ok if he's coming back from injury, has passed the fitness tests and says he's OK?
You've definitely criticised Wenger for that.
Either way the player has to take some responsibility and be honest about whether he's OK to play.

Our case seemed very odd because Wilshere came back from international duty, player pre season games and then we discovered a problem much later. I would have thought some tests would have showed something wasn't right with his foot. That was disturbing. But Wilshere is an idiot. He already declared himself ok on Twitter for this recent injury but I'm not sure how they found something was wrong this time. Imagine he came back and played in one of out major games injured!

[Özim]

How is the manager suppose to know he's not ok if he's coming back from injury, has passed the fitness tests and says he's OK?
You've definitely criticised Wenger for that.
Either way the player has to take some responsibility and be honest about whether he's OK to play.

Someone coming back from injury needs to be brought back gradually, quite often when you bring someone back and play them they get injured immediately again as their body isn't use to the extertions being placed upon it yet, I think sometimes we throw them in too early and should maybe give them 15-20 mins at the end of a match and gradually increase that until the player is 100% back to full fitness.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Apparently the fa will be paying Wilshire's wages for the duration of his layoff. Sure I read on the BBC app this morning.

[Niall_Quinn]

If a player is injured it's for him to say he can't carry on, if Wilshere said he could how was Hodgson to know he was injured? When a player goes down the player usually makes the call as to whether he's able to carry on, unless he clearly can't.

Hodgson wouldn't have left him on if he knew he was injured, why would he?

No, not in a friendly. It's not the same thing as a competitive match. Any hint of an injury and the player should be off. Unless Hodgson is so sad he's hoping to build favour with the media hyenas by winning meaningless friendlies.

[Niall_Quinn]

Apparently the fa will be paying Wilshire's wages for the duration of his layoff. Sure I read on the BBC app this morning.

That's just covering the basic costs. There should be a heavy penalty in addition as we have lost a first team player at a crucial part of the season.

[fakeyank]

If a player is injured it's for him to say he can't carry on, if Wilshere said he could how was Hodgson to know he was injured? When a player goes down the player usually makes the call as to whether he's able to carry on, unless he clearly can't.

Hodgson wouldn't have left him on if he knew he was injured, why would he?

Its the refs fault

[JonasTC]

Its the refs fault

No it wengers fault :fury:

[Niall_Quinn]

Its the refs fault

There's only one thing we know with absolute certainty. Some posters here will always (100% of the time) decide the fault lies with Arsenal and/ or Wenger.

[PGFC]

There's only one thing we know with absolute certainty. Some posters here will always (100% of the time) decide the fault lies with Arsenal and/ or Wenger.

That's Wengers fault

[Power n Glory]

It's the medias fault!

[Xhaka Can’t]

That's Wengers fault

Brilliant! :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the medias fault!

No, it's not the media's fault, they do what they do. The huge amount of the bullshit that gets generated is the fault of people who believe what the media prints. Hacks wouldn't exist if they didn't have so many hungry takers.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's Wengers fault

Yeah it is, literally every time. One day Wenger will write a book and tell us how he caused the banking meltdown and the sinking of the Titanic.

[fakeyank]

There's only one thing we know with absolute certainty. Some posters here will always (100% of the time) decide the fault lies with Arsenal and/ or Wenger.

I believe this statement is 2% away from being completely right

[IBK]

That's Wengers fault

Bravo :clap:

[Özim]

Yeah it is, literally every time. One day Wenger will write a book and tell us how he caused the banking meltdown and the sinking of the Titanic.

He won't need to, with all the money he's got out of us he can get someone to write it for him!

[Niall_Quinn]

The wages thing is such a red herring. What if I give you £7mill right now? Would you take it?

Only one condition. You have to give me £40mill back.

[Özim]

The wages thing is such a red herring. What if I give you £7mill right now? Would you take it?

Only one condition. You have to give me £40mill back.

Wenger doesn't have to give them anything back (the fans turn up regardless of the football we play), all he has to do is get 4th place which he seems to find not too hard to do, find me another manager who gets paid as much with such low targets?

Besides getting paid 7 million to earn 40 million is a great deal for anyone, you'll be lucky to have anyone offer you that.

[Niall_Quinn]

What's stopping you then? Go get the £7mill. Tell the Spuds or Newcastle (or any other team that has more to spend than us over the last 8 years) you'll get them into Europe the next 10 years in a row. I hear there are quite a few clubs looking everywhere for a manager who can do that.

[Özim]

What's stopping you then? Go get the £7mill. Tell the Spuds or Newcastle (or any other team that has more to spend than us over the last 8 years) you'll get them into Europe the next 10 years in a row. I hear there are quite a few clubs looking everywhere for a manager who can do that.

The fact they won't give me the job? As for other clubs, pretty sure those clubs won't just settle for 4th every season to be honest, 4th would be seen as a stepping stone to more and after 10 years I doubt very much any manager would have lasted 9 years at any other big club.

Not all clubs think money is the be all and end all.

[Letters]

Wenger doesn't have to give them anything back (the fans turn up regardless of the football we play), all he has to do is get 4th place which he seems to find not too hard to do, find me another manager who gets paid as much with such low targets?
Find me another manager who finds finishing top 4 every year 'not too hard to do' while spending so little, in net terms, in the transfer market.
The way some people talk on here it's like any idiot could do what Wenger's done.

[Niall_Quinn]

The fact they won't give me the job? As for other clubs, pretty sure those clubs won't just settle for 4th every season to be honest, 4th would be seen as a stepping stone to more and after 10 years I doubt very much any manager would have lasted 9 years at any other big club.

Not all clubs think money is the be all and end all.

Won't give you the job? Why not? They currently have a bumbling, clueless fool in charge who is robbing them every year. Surely they'll take anyone just to get rid of him? The job is really easy, pays £7mill a year, give it a shot. They can only say no but you definitely won't get it if you don't apply.

[IBK]

The fact they won't give me the job? As for other clubs, pretty sure those clubs won't just settle for 4th every season to be honest, 4th would be seen as a stepping stone to more and after 10 years I doubt very much any manager would have lasted 9 years at any other big club.

Not all clubs think money is the be all and end all.

Hmmm - difference between us and the likes of Sp*ds and Newcastle is that they try as hard as they can (intermittently in M'castles' case) but can't make the leap to where we are. They might have aspirations, but for them its a dream rather than our reality.

[Özim]

Find me another manager who finds finishing top 4 every year 'not too hard to do' while spending so little, in net terms, in the transfer market.
The way some people talk on here it's like any idiot could do what Wenger's done.

I don't care about finishing top for and making up the numbers in the CL, I prefer the FA Cup and thus I don't really rate the achievement that highly.

[Özim]

Won't give you the job? Why not? They currently have a bumbling, clueless fool in charge who is robbing them every year. Surely they'll take anyone just to get rid of him? The job is really easy, pays £7mill a year, give it a shot. They can only say no but you definitely won't get it if you don't apply.

Yeah like you're going to get a 7 million a year job at a big club just like that. Only the best coaches get paid that, those that deliver success.

[Özim]

Hmmm - difference between us and the likes of Sp*ds and Newcastle is that they try as hard as they can (intermittently in M'castles' case) but can't make the leap to where we are. They might have aspirations, but for them its a dream rather than our reality.

I agree with this, but you also feel it they did get top 4 this wouldn't be the limit of their ambition. Was it last season or the one before they were talking about the title?

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah like you're going to get a 7 million a year job at a big club just like that. Only the best coaches get paid that, those that deliver success.

Well Wenger manages it and he's a total mong. Are you saying you can't compete against total mongs?

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree with this, but you also feel it they did get top 4 this wouldn't be the limit of their ambition. Was it last season or the one before they were talking about the title?

So if they actually did manage to achieve what Wenger has achieved they definitely wouldn't be as shit as Wenger?

[Özim]

Well Wenger manages it and he's a total mong. Are you saying you can't compete against total mongs?

Yeah he does get it, but you won't find another coach who doesn't win for as long who does, he's the exception and that's only because the clubs number 1 interest is cash.

[Özim]

So if they actually did manage to achieve what Wenger has achieved they definitely wouldn't be as shit as Wenger?

I didn't say that, I said if they got top 4 this wouldn't be the limit of their ambition, they'd probably invest more to try and win the title or some trophies, it's called progression, you reach your first goal and then move onto the next.

We settle for top 4, if we get better it's a bonus not a necessity, but top 4 is a great achievement and we're happy with that.

[Letters]

I don't care about finishing top for and making up the numbers in the CL, I prefer the FA Cup and thus I don't really rate the achievement that highly.

Pretty much everyone in football does though, clubs are falling over themselves to get up there. I'd rather win the FA Cup than finish top 4 too by the way but unfortunately finishing top 4, qualifying for the CL and the resulting money and prestige is extremely important. I seriously doubt we'd have signed Ozil if we weren't in the CL.

I agree it shouldn't be like that but that's modern football. To finish top 4 for as many years as we have, especially during the stadium move and the rise of the billionaire backed clubs, is a remarkable achievement.

[Letters]

I agree with this, but you also feel it they did get top 4 this wouldn't be the limit of their ambition. Was it last season or the one before they were talking about the title?
How did that turn out?

[Özim]

Pretty much everyone in football does though, clubs are falling over themselves to get up there. I'd rather win the FA Cup than finish top 4 too by the way but unfortunately finishing top 4, qualifying for the CL and the resulting money and prestige is extremely important. I seriously doubt we'd have signed Ozil if we weren't in the CL.

I agree it shouldn't be like that but that's modern football. To finish top 4 for as many years as we have, especially during the stadium move and the rise of the billionaire backed clubs, is a remarkable achievement.

I don't understand why, it's one thing if you have an outside chance, but if you don't other than the money it's a pile of sh*t, the fact they let 3-4 teams for some countries also devalues the competition massively.

The CL IMO is ruining football somewhat because now winning cups is suddenly not that important but winning nothing and coming 4th is something amazing, history books aren't going to remember who came 4th, they won't be saying Arsenal came 4th in 2014 in 20 years time.

[Özim]

How did that turn out?

Obviously it didn't work out, that wasn't the point though, we seem happy with 4th but you feel certain other clubs would if in our position be setting their sights higher. I seriously re-sent the attitude at the club and the fact we get force-fed cr*p about how getting 4th = a wonderful season.

It does, for the owners and shareholders.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're not happy with 4th. Now that the stadium project is supposedly yielding the result we wanted to see it's time to start delivering on the pitch. This project isn't open ended, it has a start and an end date. Now the big deals are signed if we don't press the benefits we've put up with so much shit to gain then that would be a problem.

[IBK]

Pretty much everyone in football does though, clubs are falling over themselves to get up there. I'd rather win the FA Cup than finish top 4 too by the way but unfortunately finishing top 4, qualifying for the CL and the resulting money and prestige is extremely important. I seriously doubt we'd have signed Ozil if we weren't in the CL.

I agree it shouldn't be like that but that's modern football. To finish top 4 for as many years as we have, especially during the stadium move and the rise of the billionaire backed clubs, is a remarkable achievement.

Letters - you need to remember that there is still such a thing as a club to have greater ambition. Under Wenger, fourth is pretty much a given for us - as it should now be given our resources. We need to start aiming higher and show some ambition.

[Letters]

Letters - you need to remember that there is still such a thing as a club to have greater ambition. Under Wenger, fourth is pretty much a given for us - as it should now be given our resources. We need to start aiming higher and show some ambition.

Agreed and I do think we have greater ambitions but till the new commercial deals were in place we were slightly hampered.

[saintnickle]

Agreed and I do think we have greater ambitions but till the new commercial deals were in place we were slightly hampered.

I will wait till the end of august to see if we have greater ambition or not.I wont be getting too excited though after we signed the amazing kalstrom in january.

[Letters]

I think that's fair enough. We have made progress this year but there's more work to do this summer.

[Chippy]

I will wait till the end of august to see if we have greater ambition or not.I wont be getting too excited though after we signed the amazing kalstrom in january.
Even though we have signed the big sponsorship deals and most of the stadium is paid for, if we failed to finish in the top four, the board would use that as an excuse not to spend too much money.