When do we start to believe ?

[Power n Glory]

The results which see them with 4 more points than at this stage last season? FACT (little help, there).
Those ones?

Does that mean they’re in good form this season considering the teams they’ve dropped points to?

[Letters]

Does that mean they’re in good form this season considering the teams they’ve dropped points to?
It means their change hasn't done them much harm so far, they're 2 points off the top and sailed through their CL group.
I can cherry-pick some bad results from last season if you like. By this stage last year they'd drawn against QPR and Fulham, lost to West Hame and West Brom.
Maybe Mourinho will make them better but so far he's certainly not made them worse.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It means their change hasn't done them much harm so far, they're 2 points off the top and sailed through their CL group.
I can cherry-pick some bad results from last season if you like. By this stage last year they'd drawn against QPR and Fulham, lost to West Hame and West Brom.
Maybe Mourinho will make them better but so far he's certainly not made them worse.

:gp: Every season, there will be surprises. It is extremely easy to pick an exceptional result and use it to support an argument. But while being exceptionally easy, it often leads to the wrong conclusion.

We are well enough into the season to draw the conclusion that the transitions undertaken by Man City and Chelsea have had no adverse effect on those teams when compared to last season. In Everton's case, the transition has had an extremely positive effect.

We've also learned that Ferguson srems to be a more effective manager than Moyes. :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Okay, you guys are going on the points in comparison to last season. It doesn’t tell the full story but we can look at it. Both City and Chelsea were patchy last season and they’re looking that way now too. But if you look back on our points tally last season, it’s not as if there was a massive gulf between us. We finished 2 points behind Chelsea last season and 5 behind City.

Arsenal – 73
Chelsea – 75
City – 78

Why are you still putting them well ahead of us for the title race when they’re still patchy this season and we’ve been consistent?

[Xhaka Can’t]

That is an entirely different discussion. Maybe later, I've got to get on with some work.

[Power n Glory]

I don’t see how if we’re comparing last season’s results.

[Power n Glory]

There is no evidence there to suggest they’re going to storm the league. You just presume they will. As said, it's open especially when you consider that we weren't far behind them last year.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Just a quick point, and then I really am out for a while. The change at City is a major plus for them. Mancini was toxic. They should really be walking the League, though the combination of a toxic manager going up against the best ever meant that they never did.

[Power n Glory]

Mancini did lose the plot a bit but after winning the title it’s always hard to keep a squad hungry because complacency kicks in. Pellegrini has a solid rep he’s never won a title and this is his first season here. I think he’ll build a solid team but there are no guarantees that he’ll great this season.

Take a closer look at the records for both Chelsea and City after 16 games.

Last season after 16 games
City – Lost 1, Drew 6 – 33 points.
Chelsea - Lost 3, Drew 5 – 29 points

This season
City – Lost 4, Drew 2 – 32 points
Chelsea – Lost 3, Drew 3 – 33 points

If Mancini was toxic and having a shocker, Pellegrini isn’t doing much better. 4 losses is a lot compared to 1 defeat. If he’s a much better coach, time will tell which is why this bedding in period is a perfect time to capitalise.

[Letters]

Okay, you guys are going on the points in comparison to last season. It doesn’t tell the full story but we can look at it. Both City and Chelsea were patchy last season and they’re looking that way now too. But if you look back on our points tally last season, it’s not as if there was a massive gulf between us. We finished 2 points behind Chelsea last season and 5 behind City.

Arsenal – 73
Chelsea – 75
City – 78

Why are you still putting them well ahead of us for the title race when they’re still patchy this season and we’ve been consistent?
OK. That is a much better argument for why we could do it this year. You're right, we weren't a million miles away from City or Chelsea last year so we can't we finish above them this?

My real disagreement with you on this thread is you citing change at Utd, City and Chelsea as the reason we could win it this year. That change doesn't seem to have affected 2 of the clubs negatively, I agree that points at this stage is an imperfect way of assessing things but there are enough games to give us some indication of where the teams stand and so far Chelsea and City, despite some poor results, are doing OK. I'm not clear why you're contrasting City and Chelsea's 'patchy' form with our 'consistency' when we're only 3 and 2 points above them respectively. There's clearly not much between the clubs so far.

What have been the barriers to us winning the league over the last few years?

1) Fergie - well, he's gone and that gives us more of a chance than we had when he was around. Utd are looking far poorer without him.

2) Years of underinvestment - year on year we've sold our best players without replacing them. Last summer was the first year we've not had anyone good enough to pique any of the top clubs' interest so we have, for once, kept the core of our squad together. It wasn't a squad strong enough to challenge last year, we looked pretty poor at times, but Flamini was a good signing and Ozil an outstanding one. That trend has been halted, possibly even reversed, but it's debatable whether 1 big signing is enough. We still look pretty lightweight up front.

3) The billionaire-fueled clubs. City and Chelsea can blunder their way to the top with huge, expensively assembled squads. It makes them very haard to compete with. This is the barrier that I still see to us winning the title. They've both changed managers but as discussed that doesn't seem to have negatively affected them so far. It's true we weren't a million miles away last year from either so maybe we could just pip them both this year but City looked frightening last weekend. Chelsea haven't looked that great but they are winning games, they're still up there and they have a manager who while perhaps not quite in Fergie's league knows how to win the title.

IMO the title is a step too far this year, mostly because of number 3. I agree it won't be easier next year but if we invest in a top striker then we could push much harder. IMO that's our main weakness. Despite last weekend our defence is generally looking better this year, the midfield looks very good but we lack an Aguero/RvP or Suarez. Someone at the level who you can see leading the line in a title winning side. Get one and we'd be very strong contenders in any season.

[IBK]

If you ask me, we have all become too used to offering excuses, and so grateful are we for a marginal improvement so far this season that people are too ready to settle for second best.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Manure and the Chavs are in transition this season and therefore that it represents better chance to beat them than maybe next year will. Citeh too have shown uncharacteristic frailty away from home and the sensible money would be on them strengthening going forwards.

Wenger by contrast has the benefit of stability and a settled squad. For the calendar year our team has a better record than our competitors, and Wenger has invested 42m on a supposedly world class player. Yes, before the season we wouldn't have considered ourselves league winners but what's the point of referring back to then?

There's little point in acknowledging a marginal improvement if nothing has fundamentally changed. IMO this was the time for Wenger to show that his team has properly progressed. Maybe he still will, but I'm afraid that at the crunch times things haven't looked that different up until now.

[Letters]

Marginal?

[LDG]

Personally I've enjoyed our marginal improvement marginally more than I enjoyed one off the wrist this morning.

[fakeyank]

OK. That is a much better argument for why we could do it this year. You're right, we weren't a million miles away from City or Chelsea last year so we can't we finish above them this?

My real disagreement with you on this thread is you citing change at Utd, City and Chelsea as the reason we could win it this year. That change doesn't seem to have affected 2 of the clubs negatively, I agree that points at this stage is an imperfect way of assessing things but there are enough games to give us some indication of where the teams stand and so far Chelsea and City, despite some poor results, are doing OK. I'm not clear why you're contrasting City and Chelsea's 'patchy' form with our 'consistency' when we're only 3 and 2 points above them respectively. There's clearly not much between the clubs so far.

What have been the barriers to us winning the league over the last few years?

1) Fergie - well, he's gone and that gives us more of a chance than we had when he was around. Utd are looking far poorer without him.

2) Years of underinvestment - year on year we've sold our best players without replacing them. Last summer was the first year we've not had anyone good enough to pique any of the top clubs' interest so we have, for once, kept the core of our squad together. It wasn't a squad strong enough to challenge last year, we looked pretty poor at times, but Flamini was a good signing and Ozil an outstanding one. That trend has been halted, possibly even reversed, but it's debatable whether 1 big signing is enough. We still look pretty lightweight up front.

3) The billionaire-fueled clubs. City and Chelsea can blunder their way to the top with huge, expensively assembled squads. It makes them very haard to compete with. This is the barrier that I still see to us winning the title. They've both changed managers but as discussed that doesn't seem to have negatively affected them so far. It's true we weren't a million miles away last year from either so maybe we could just pip them both this year but City looked frightening last weekend. Chelsea haven't looked that great but they are winning games, they're still up there and they have a manager who while perhaps not quite in Fergie's league knows how to win the title.

IMO the title is a step too far this year, mostly because of number 3. I agree it won't be easier next year but if we invest in a top striker then we could push much harder. IMO that's our main weakness. Despite last weekend our defence is generally looking better this year, the midfield looks very good but we lack an Aguero/RvP or Suarez. Someone at the level who you can see leading the line in a title winning side. Get one and we'd be very strong contenders in any season.

I dont necessarily agree with this viewpoint. I think this season stands a good chance to nail home our advantage. I am concerned about our striking options too and that is why I think, Wenger and the scouts should be doing everything they can to secure someone who can help us maintain our advantage. We do not know how the future will pan out and how much City or Chelsea will strengthen, so I would rather we capitalize on the present than hope for the future.

Will I be happy if we finish 2nd or 3rd come May? I dont know... because part of me still has the hangover from our first game of the season and the other is cautiously optimistic about what is actually happening on the field. I just know that I'D FREAKING LOVE IT if we won! I will go on a binge of unhealthy stuff if we do! :patrice:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Marginal?

Your face is marginal.

[Power n Glory]

OK. That is a much better argument for why we could do it this year. You're right, we weren't a million miles away from City or Chelsea last year so we can't we finish above them this?

My real disagreement with you on this thread is you citing change at Utd, City and Chelsea as the reason we could win it this year. That change doesn't seem to have affected 2 of the clubs negatively, I agree that points at this stage is an imperfect way of assessing things but there are enough games to give us some indication of where the teams stand and so far Chelsea and City, despite some poor results, are doing OK. I'm not clear why you're contrasting City and Chelsea's 'patchy' form with our 'consistency' when we're only 3 and 2 points above them respectively. There's clearly not much between the clubs so far.

What have been the barriers to us winning the league over the last few years?

1) Fergie - well, he's gone and that gives us more of a chance than we had when he was around. Utd are looking far poorer without him.

2) Years of underinvestment - year on year we've sold our best players without replacing them. Last summer was the first year we've not had anyone good enough to pique any of the top clubs' interest so we have, for once, kept the core of our squad together. It wasn't a squad strong enough to challenge last year, we looked pretty poor at times, but Flamini was a good signing and Ozil an outstanding one. That trend has been halted, possibly even reversed, but it's debatable whether 1 big signing is enough. We still look pretty lightweight up front.

3) The billionaire-fueled clubs. City and Chelsea can blunder their way to the top with huge, expensively assembled squads. It makes them very haard to compete with. This is the barrier that I still see to us winning the title. They've both changed managers but as discussed that doesn't seem to have negatively affected them so far. It's true we weren't a million miles away last year from either so maybe we could just pip them both this year but City looked frightening last weekend. Chelsea haven't looked that great but they are winning games, they're still up there and they have a manager who while perhaps not quite in Fergie's league knows how to win the title.

IMO the title is a step too far this year, mostly because of number 3. I agree it won't be easier next year but if we invest in a top striker then we could push much harder. IMO that's our main weakness. Despite last weekend our defence is generally looking better this year, the midfield looks very good but we lack an Aguero/RvP or Suarez. Someone at the level who you can see leading the line in a title winning side. Get one and we'd be very strong contenders in any season.

If this season is a step too far because of reason 3 - the billionaire fuel clubs, then you might as well argue that we don't stand a chance in any season. We could strengthen next season but if our rivals do the same then arguments about strength and depth will crop up again because we can't compete with their finances. If we crumble this season, see our rivals overtake us, lift the title and then strengthen, that will be a massive psychological hurdle to jump over next season. Who knows if we'll keep all of our players together next season or even if Wenger will be here as coach, I've said that once before. We should be looking at this as a massive opportunity and I hope we don't make the same mistake as 2008 where we didn't buy a striker.

As said, City and Chelsea weren't great last season and if it looks like more of the same then that's great for us. If they end the season on 75-78 points again, great! You don't think much has changed with them, that's fine with me if they continue on last seasons form. At the moment, I don't think they're firing on all cylinders and it will take time for them to adjust which is why I say our chance is now. We have to buy in January and take advantage.

[Power n Glory]

If you ask me, we have all become too used to offering excuses, and so grateful are we for a marginal improvement so far this season that people are too ready to settle for second best.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Manure and the Chavs are in transition this season and therefore that it represents better chance to beat them than maybe next year will. Citeh too have shown uncharacteristic frailty away from home and the sensible money would be on them strengthening going forwards.

Wenger by contrast has the benefit of stability and a settled squad. For the calendar year our team has a better record than our competitors, and Wenger has invested 42m on a supposedly world class player. Yes, before the season we wouldn't have considered ourselves league winners but what's the point of referring back to then?

There's little point in acknowledging a marginal improvement if nothing has fundamentally changed. IMO this was the time for Wenger to show that his team has properly progressed. Maybe he still will, but I'm afraid that at the crunch times things haven't looked that different up until now.

:gp:

That's my main worry. I don't feel as if our opponents are too strong for us this year. I'm more concerned about the decisions we'll make throughout this season and if old habits creep in. This is the first time in a long time I've been optimistic about our chances and I hope we really go for it.

[Power n Glory]

I dont necessarily agree with this viewpoint. I think this season stands a good chance to nail home our advantage. I am concerned about our striking options too and that is why I think, Wenger and the scouts should be doing everything they can to secure someone who can help us maintain our advantage. We do not know how the future will pan out and how much City or Chelsea will strengthen, so I would rather we capitalize on the present than hope for the future.

Will I be happy if we finish 2nd or 3rd come May? I dont know... because part of me still has the hangover from our first game of the season and the other is cautiously optimistic about what is actually happening on the field. I just know that I'D FREAKING LOVE IT if we won! I will go on a binge of unhealthy stuff if we do! :patrice:

:gp:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Not really. His answer regarding the Chelsea game proves my point. Why are they there for the taking on Monday?

because they are shit?

[IBK]

Marginal?

So far, yes. Unfortunately, in terms of results against the big teams - and winning games when it really matters not a great deal has changed. Yet.

[Letters]

So far, yes. Unfortunately, in terms of results against the big teams - and winning games when it really matters not a great deal has changed. Yet.If you're going to win the league it always matters.
W11 D2 L3 F33 A17
vs
W6 D6 L4 F26 A16
isn't really marginal improvement.

[Letters]

If this season is a step too far because of reason 3 - the billionaire fuel clubs, then you might as well argue that we don't stand a chance in any season.
When Abramovic came along and bought his way to success with Chelsea it changed the whole landscape of the PL. Now we have City with an even bigger chequebook so yes, it will always be extremely difficult to compete. Since we last won the title the only clubs who have done so are ManYoo, Chelsea and Man City.
ManYoo have the ability to outspend us and have had the best manager of all time guiding them to titles that, looking at their squad, they had no business winning. City and Chelsea can spend what they like with no consequence. Unless any serious financial fair play measures are brought in it's going to be extremely difficult to compete with them.

That said I don't think it's impossible and I reckon our current squad + a top striker would seriously compete. If we get one in January then we have a chance.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Nobody has said it is impossible. But just look at the squad City have.

They should be winning the League without question. That said, if we can get another striker, we'll greatly enhance our chances. If we don't get someone up front, I don't fancy our chances at all because so much will rest on one player.

That said, hopefully we'll see more of the same from Walcott - he was the one true bright spot on Saturday.

[Power n Glory]

That's more like it. :lol:

It's within our hands. If we buy a top striker in Jan or a goal scoring winger we should be in the race for sure.

[Letters]

It's on!

:patrice:

[LDG]

:yippee:

[WMUG]

It's back on?

[GP]

It was never off, unless you're some sort of pirate fag.

[IBK]

If you're going to win the league it always matters.
W11 D2 L3 F33 A17
vs
W6 D6 L4 F26 A16
isn't really marginal improvement.

I'd make 2 points.

First, even on those stats, roughly speaking we have drawn 4 games that we lost last year. That's the only real difference. And I'd say that those 4 points represent a decidedly marginal difference.

Secondly, it takes more than pure stats to measure the progress of a team. We have always had the capability to beat those teams below us. Observers are quite right to look at our results against the top teams to judge whether there has been a real change in this team. And so far this season these particular results are no better than in seasons past.

[milla]

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130501204017/alienfilm/images/e/e8/I_Want_to_Believe.png

[AKBapologist]

I wont believe until the january window closes and we have at least a shiney new world class striker...

[Özim]

At this point I believe we can be in the top 4, nothing more.

[IBK]

At this point I believe we can be in the top 4, nothing more.

Me too. Not a lot's changed.

[Ollie the Optimist]

we've won the most points in the whole of 2013.

we have now played everyone once and reached the halfway point in the season top of the league.


its on

[Marc Overmars]

Can't help but believe we are going to be there fighting until the end.

We probably will need some big wins though against our rivals in the 2nd half of the season, I'm not sure we're going to get ourselves in a position to go 7 points clear again.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

A striker and we can do it.

We really can.

[GP]

we've won the most points in the whole of 2013.

we have now played everyone once and reached the halfway point in the season top of the league.


its on

Not a lot's changed...

lol

[Özim]

Not a lot's changed...

lol

#WUM

[fakeyank]

If we miraculously beat bayern then we can kiss good bye to the league. Lose that, sign a striker and we should be up there fighting till the end.

Also realized that city has away games against us, Liverpool, United and spurs. We must sacrifice all the goats and hope that their away form stays as dismal as it is now.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

[LDG]

Top of the league going into the New Year.

Dissapointing that we haven't won every game this year really.

Failure again :(

[Syn]

Just need to keep doing what we've been doing. It would definitely help to win against Chelsea and Man City, but those aren't the games that annoy you, it's Villa at home. You can't win them all but we need to keep a near perfect record against the non top6 sides. Like Man City at home in 2011/12 type of record. And then get the odd wins against Tottenham and Liverpool as we've been doing along with some draws like against Chelsea and Everton.

Flat track bullies + competitive at home against the top 6 = title.

[Letters]

Top of the league going into the New Year.

Dissapointing that we haven't won every game this year really.

Failure again :(
:haha:

It's completely meaningless being top at this stage.
I thought we'd struggle to finish in the top 4 this year so I'm really disappointed we're only top by a point :(

[Penguin]

We're still in it but my worry is that we're unlikely to get any of the 'big name' strikers like Costa in January. No club wants to disrupt their season by selling one of their best players.

We could still make a smart transfer even if it is a stop gap, but I'm not sure who that could be.

[Ollie the Optimist]

in 2013, we have the second highest win % for a year EVER in our history and took 82 points in the year. clearly this team is doing something right. we have added consistency and steel to our game. look at today, even though we were as fans were probably all panicking for the last 20 minutes of the game, you get the impression that the players were quite cool and collected and knew they would see the game out.

there is a lot of hope for us right now. lets enjoy the ride, get behind the team and moan about it if it fails in may not now. Up the Arsenal

[PGFC]

:haha:

It's completely meaningless being top at this stage.
I thought we'd struggle to finish in the top 4 this year so I'm really disappointed we're only top by a point :(

I think the last team to be top at the turn of the year and not go on to win the league was us.

[bunsco]

Why are you still putting them well ahead of us for the title race when they’re still patchy this season and we’ve been consistent?

I think you just answered your own question.
Yes, We have been consistent, but for a good while - when the questions been asked of us, we have (in the main) failed against the big sides.
But even more importantly, the fact that the other 2 teams are only within 2 points off us with us playing on the whole very well, and our rivals being patchy at best - I don't see us having more than and extra gear to go up this season (if we indeed do have one), where as with Chelsea and City in their transition stages, they have much more room for improvement - and with squads with real strength in depth.

[Heisenberg]

I think the last team to be top at the turn of the year and not go on to win the league was us.
I think Liverpool were in 2009/10. Unless they were top at Christmas and didn't win it, rather than New Year.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

in 2013, we have the second highest win % for a year EVER in our history and took 82 points in the year. clearly this team is doing something right. we have added consistency and steel to our game. look at today, even though we were as fans were probably all panicking for the last 20 minutes of the game, you get the impression that the players were quite cool and collected and knew they would see the game out.

there is a lot of hope for us right now. lets enjoy the ride, get behind the team and moan about it if it fails in may not now. Up the Arsenal

Well Wenger was confident enough to turn it into a back 5 for once. That tells us he trusts this defence. Speaks volumes.

[AFC Leveller]

The fact that we have picked up 82 points this year shows consistancy and determination and i think that will be a factor towards the end of the season.

In terms of winning the thing, City are/were favourites and i think they will probably win it but i also think Chelsea will be very close. They've been average yet they are 2 points off us (they have picked up points against all of their rivals, no losses) and if they get a striker in january then you have to say they'll be favourites.

[PGFC]

Now :good:

[selassie]

We have as good as chance as anybody. Been really pleased with how we have responded after the Citeh mauling. Think we are in it for the long haul but still feel we are the underdogs, think Citeh and now Chelsea (who seem to be really improving) are the two favourites.

[Marc Overmars]

City have to play most of the top half away from home which is good, however it's probably fair to say they will win most if not all their home games, which will keep them favourites.

Chelsea's shit performances are bound to catch up on them I hope, but Mourinho does have an ugly habit of doing this to good effect.

[Özim]

We've done pretty well so far, crunch time will be March/April when we play Spurs, Chelsea, Man City and Everton in quick succession 3 of those being away and Bayern Munich away as well in the CL 2nd leg.

That's a really tough run and I'm not sure this squad can cope, reckon we need another 1 or 2 players (maybe 1 striker if we can keep players fit for this period).

[milla]

We've done pretty well so far, crunch time will be March/April when we play Spurs, Chelsea, Man City and Everton in quick succession 3 of those being away and Bayern Munich away as well in the CL 2nd leg.

That's a really tough run and I'm not sure this squad can cope, reckon we need another 1 or 2 players (maybe 1 striker if we can keep players fit for this period).

A striker is a must and 2nd wide forward would be great additional IMO.

[Ollie the Optimist]

out of the final 18 games, 9 are home games and other 9 are away. looking at the fixtures you'd say we should get 8/9 home wins, and if we can get 20ish points in the away games. id say that should just about do it.

huge second half the season left but we'e done everything right so far. lets hope we add the striker we need, push on and bring that title home

[AFC Leveller]

We'll lose to City/Chelsea but for me, this season esp, we've shown that we can beat any of the other sides and that will be crucial come March/April. We went into the City game 5 points clear due to our record/wins against pub teams and if we can continue our run then there is no reason why we cannot still be in contention by the end of the season.

[milla]

We'll lose to City/Chelsea but for me, this season esp, we've shown that we can beat any of the other sides and that will be crucial come March/April. We went into the City game 5 points clear due to our record/wins against pub teams and if we can continue our run then there is no reason why we cannot still be in contention by the end of the season.

We will not lose our home game to City and draw would be a great result against Chelsea. Away to Everton would be 2nd toughest after Chelsea game IMO.

[Ollie the Optimist]

watching yesterday and other games this season, a lot of the time, these players just want to win. they never gave up yesterday, even bendtner was chasing down everything. they just want to win. i don't know if any of you saw it, but have a look at wengers celebration for the first goal yesterday and you will see flamini going berserk behind him. its fantastic to see.

chelsea and city have great players but what they lack is great team spirit and i think we have that in droves and thats one of our greatest strengths going into the second half of the season. these players want this judging by the way they have chased wins this season and not given up, look at Rosicky against newcastle. 33 years old yet in the 92nd minute of the game was still sprinting along the pitch chasing everything down. this squad seems very close and united, they want each other to do well and the team to do well so don't give up.

of course footballing ability is more important, but sometimes when games don't seem to be going your way, the team spirit can carry you on. take yesterday, chance after chance went missing yet they just kept on going and got the win whereas in some games, city and chelsa have just given up.

[AFC Leveller]

I didnt mean the upcoming games against them, i was talking about our record in general where its a little bit not very good.

Chelsea away doesnt worry me as much as City or old Man u away but i dont think we'll go there and dominate them at their own pitch. Mourinho has pubbed his way against Liverpool and City and i can see him doing the same against us too.

[Heisenberg]

It's just over halfway, which means two things:

We've played everyone at least once, so the previous excuse that we haven't played the best teams yet doesn't work anymore. We're top of the pack at halfway, which means we have to be taken seriously. We can no longer be disregarded because we'll drop points or come unstuck against the bigger teams.
There's still a long way to go. A lot can change over half a season, teams can fall away. We have done this ourselves, other teams have done it too.

Can we win it? Yes. Will we? I'm not so sure. City look ominous. But we are in with a shout :scarf:

[Letters]

It's just over halfway, which means two things:

We've played everyone at least once, so the previous excuse that we haven't played the best teams yet doesn't work anymore. We're top of the pack at halfway, which means we have to be taken seriously. We can no longer be disregarded because we'll drop points or come unstuck against the bigger teams.
There's still a long way to go. A lot can change over half a season, teams can fall away. We have done this ourselves, other teams have done it too.

Can we win it? Yes. Will we? I'm not so sure. City look ominous. But we are in with a shout :scarf:
That :good:

We're doing the sorts of things Champions do. We're not winning every big game but we've won a few.
Liverpool at home was a great result - they'd have leapfrogged us had they beaten us. Newcastle away was fantastic - they've been pretty strong at home this year and had already beaten Chelsea and drawn with City. If we'd lost that then we'd have failed to go back top and Newcastle would have only been 3 points away.

We're winning ugly in games where we've not played well and we're holding out in tight games when we're under pressure.

The pressure will build, we've got a horrible run in March and my head says that when push comes to shove City and probably Chelsea have too much for us but we're doing enough to make me think we should be taken seriously as contenders this year

:scarf:

[Grebbo]

It's just a pity we didn't beat Man U or Chelsea. Man U in particular were there for the taking but we played really shit.

I think it's City's title to lose but it's great that we're in the running.

[selassie]

It's just a pity we didn't beat Man U or Chelsea. Man U in particular were there for the taking but we played really shit.

I think it's City's title to lose but it's great that we're in the running.

I still can't believe we lost to Man U. The Spuds tore them to shreads in the first half yesterday, they could and should have been 2 or 3 up and that's no exaggeration.

It's not just the Spuds either, I caught a bit of the Hull game and they took United to the cleaners in the first 20 minutes, even when they were chasing the game in the last 15 mins United were all over the shop.

[Letters]

Honestly think it's a mental thing when we go up there, every bad result they get makes our result up there look worse.

[GP]

It was an illness thing. Half the squad had the shits.

[Grebbo]

We had some players with flu and we'd just played Dortmund away, wasn't it an early KO as well?

I thought that was our worst performance of the season, couldn't keep the ball for more than 10 seconds.

[Marc Overmars]

It's true we were shattered but I'm not convinced the result would have been much different, I agree with Lettuce that it's become a mental block.

We've got them in a month so we won't have to wait long to see if we can finally bury the fuckers.

[fakeyank]

It's true we were shattered but I'm not convinced the result would have been much different, I agree with Lettuce that it's become a mental block.

We've got them in a month so we won't have to wait long to see if we can finally bury the fuckers.

Whatever the outcome, I just want someone to punch RVP in the nuts!

[Letters]

It was an illness thing. Half the squad had the shits.
:lasagna:

[WMUG]

:lasagna:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZjk6qtyZCg

[selassie]

It's true we were shattered but I'm not convinced the result would have been much different, I agree with Lettuce that it's become a mental block.

We've got them in a month so we won't have to wait long to see if we can finally bury the fuckers.

Yep, agree with you both.

I really want us to stuff them next month.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think without the break out of Ebola or whatever it was we probably would have got a draw but we most definitely have a demon or two to exercise about playing them.

[Ollie the Optimist]

with all the injuries and illness we have had over the festive period, we went and won all 4 games. real fight, heart and passion shown by all the players who played, they want this trophy. it really is time to believe. The Arsenal are back

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

In answer to my original question, I believe

[Ernesto]

I think that, now we play before at least one of Man City and Chelsea over the next few EPL fixtures, we need a clean sweep of wins in January. It puts the pressure on them (going 4 or 5 points behind the leaders respectively) thus putting them in a must-win scenario which, as we all know, is where the pressure can tell and the strangest of results can occur.

Couple to this a sudden fixture pile-up for City (they have an FA Cup replay and participation in the league cup final will inevitably put them a week behind in terms of premier league game) and I think they might just blink first.

Finally, with Chelsea and man city playing one another in a couple of weeks, this is bound to work in our favour.

All in all, I think that If we take a 4-point lead going into the game at Anfield in late Feb (which, incidentally, we also play before our rivals kick-off that weekend) then there are reasons to be cheerful.

[JonasTC]

I'll believe if we surve the 'March Madness'

[Master Splinter]

The fixtures aren't too bad in terms of recovery time.

There's a potentially killer week beginning with the Man City home game if we get past Bayern though.

Would help to get pub teams at home in the FA Cup.

[Letters]

Our last 5 games are all pub teams. If we can stay in contention till then and we can hold our nerve we've got a real chance.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

It's ON!

[the non-flying dutchman]

Even after the stumble we took at the saints, I still believe the title is ours this year. Chelsea dropped points yesterday and City still have'ta come to ours (and regardless of how good they look they will drop points elsewhere).
But then again as long as it's a mathematical possibility I always believe we can win it!

[selassie]

Even after the stumble we took at the saints, I still believe the title is ours this year. Chelsea dropped points yesterday and City still have'ta come to ours (and regardless of how good they look they will drop points elsewhere).
But then again as long as it's a mathematical possibility I always believe we can win it!

Anything is possible but in all fairness we are going to really need to up our game and get bodies back if we want to finish above City.

Say what you like about City with their financial doping but at the moment they are several levels above anybody else in the League, it's actually ridiculous the way they take teams apart. It's not a fluke either, they have pretty much torn apart all their rivals.

City are overwhelming favourites for me, they have sorted out their away form now which was always going to happen.

[Letters]

City are overwhelming favourites for me, they have sorted out their away form now which was always going to happen.
Pretty much.
It's a shame, Wenger's finally built another squad which looks like it can seriously challenge but we're probably going to come up short because of one (possibly two) clubs with the infinite money cheat on who have blundered their way to the top through sheer weight of spending.

[Syn]

Their form looks ominous; there's not much you can do when they get 34 points out of 36. But I'm still more interested in what we do. We almost certainly won't but if we get, say, 88 points or more and we don't win the league that would still represent a top effort for me - if another team gets 90+, they had to be incredibly good (read: irresponsibly rich) to beat us. If we get mid 80s and an FA cup run (semi-finals or more) that would be a good improvement for the season, certainly something to build on.

[AFC Leveller]

The worrying tiing for me is that teams are beaten by City before the game has kicked off. Sherwodd's interview before the game yesterday was embarrassing, the way he talked them saying his team will play against the Champions elect etc. and even afterwards he was bum licking them no end.

City are the best team in the league no doubt but teams are now basically giving up against them and trying not to concede 4 or 5.

[JonasTC]

Dont agree with people saying City have sorted out their away form, they have been lucky at the right times and have had ref in their favor at critical times, im sure they will drop more points. Especially when you see that they still have Us, United, Everton and Liverpool away.

[LDG]

City will have another bad spell. We just have to be about when they do.

More importantly, we need to concentrate on our own form and game, as we've been a little under par for a while now, and we are actually due a hot streak.

I would be over the moon if we could win the league. It would be the best feeling ever. But if you put everything into perspective, you have to just tip your hat to us if we can stay within touching distance going into the final mix.

[Letters]

Dont agree with people saying City have sorted out their away form, they have been lucky at the right times and have had ref in their favor at critical times, im sure they will drop more points. Especially when you see that they still have Us, United, Everton and Liverpool away.
I'm sure they'll drop points, the issue is will they drop more points than us. I've had a look at the fixtures and put a '*' by the ones I regard as 'difficult'.
We have 6, they have 4. It's going to be very tricky.


City:
24 03.02.2014 Chelsea home*
25 08.02.2014 Norwich City away
26 12.02.2014 Sunderland home
27 22.02.2014 Stoke City home
28 08.03.2014 Aston Villa home
29 15.03.2014 Hull City away
30 22.03.2014 Fulham home
31 25.03.2014 Manchester United away*
32 29.03.2014 Arsenal away*
33 05.04.2014 Southampton home
34 12.04.2014 Liverpool away*
35 19.04.2014 West Bromwich Albion home
36 26.04.2014 Crystal Palace away
37 03.05.2014 Everton away
38 11.05.2014 West Ham United home


Arsenal
24 02.02.2014 Crystal Palace home
25 08.02.2014 Liverpool away*
26 12.02.2014 Manchester United home*
27 22.02.2014 Sunderland home
28 01.03.2014 Stoke City away
29 08.03.2014 Swansea City home
30 16.03.2014 Tottenham Hotspur away*
31 22.03.2014 Chelsea away*
32 29.03.2014 Manchester City home*
33 05.04.2014 Everton away*
34 12.04.2014 West Ham United home
35 19.04.2014 Hull City away
36 26.04.2014 Newcastle United home
37 03.05.2014 West Bromwich Albion home
38 11.05.2014 Norwich City away

[JonasTC]

How come you think Everton away is going to be hard for us, but not for City? Just curious :)

Anyway i think our most important results will be winning over both Manchester clubs at home, even tho' utd is not a rival this season, it will still be a mental boost to beat an opponent that have been our kryptonite for years.

[Letters]

:lol: Fair enough. OK. 5 to 6 then.

[selassie]

Dont agree with people saying City have sorted out their away form, they have been lucky at the right times and have had ref in their favor at critical times, im sure they will drop more points. Especially when you see that they still have Us, United, Everton and Liverpool away.

Jonas you dont have to agree with it but it is a fact. City have been winning pretty much every game and alarmingly they have torn apart a lot of teams. Look this is no slight on us, we have had a great season so far and have made big improvements but we're in a real scrap with City and Chelsea for the title and we have no room for error IMHO.

I do agree City have been lucky at times, against us and Liverpool especially.

[WMUG]

I'm kinda torn on the issue of whether City are paying off the officials or not. They're certainly getting some very dodgy decisions in their favour, and with the amount of money swilling around in football it's certainly possible, but I dunno. You just can't rule out monumental incompetence in anything.

[Özim]

Man City have been dishing out thrashings regularly, whilst they may have had the odd break here and there this doesn't explain them spanking teams as they do. They've got a top manager, some real top players and have been winning basically because they've largely been much better than the opposition.

You don't score the amount of goals they have without being pretty potent. We've been solid and efficient but our lack of quality up front is very apparent and at the end of the day that lack of quality up front will most likely be the difference, they've got 3 strikers who have proved they can score goals (and a 4th one who's been injured but potentially could score plenty as well), we have Giroud who although does score goals isn't a potent force up front.

They always use to say you need 3/4 decent strikers to compete in different competitions, we did when we were winning, so did Man U etc, we're well short on that score nowadays.

[JonasTC]

But think about it, you're saying City has been beastin it (and i dont disagree). Yet we're only 1 point behind and if it wasnt for corrupt refs helping them out, we would probably had been ahead by 5+ points easily. So i dont think we're doing too bad :)

[the non-flying dutchman]

Man City have been dishing out thrashings regularly, whilst they may have had the odd break here and there this doesn't explain them spanking teams as they do. They've got a top manager, some real top players and have been winning basically because they've largely been much better than the opposition.

You don't score the amount of goals they have without being pretty potent. We've been solid and efficient but our lack of quality up front is very apparent and at the end of the day that lack of quality up front will most likely be the difference, they've got 3 strikers who have proved they can score goals (and a 4th one who's been injured but potentially could score plenty as well), we have Giroud who although does score goals isn't a potent force up front.

They always use to say you need 3/4 decent strikers to compete in different competitions, we did when we were winning, so did Man U etc, we're well short on that score nowadays.

Momentum can explain the spanking, a decision goes the other way gives the opposing team some confidence and in-turn takes some wind out of City's sails and the all conquering juggernaut we're seeing comes grinding to a halt.
City are a great side in terrifying form, however, I feel a lot of that is due to confidence, which is something that can be further boosted when you know the refs pulling for you.

[Özim]

Yes but we also have to acknowledge that Pellegrini came in last summer and that it's taken him time to get things right (as expected), they had some poor/unexpected results early on, which allowed us due to our good start and consistency to build up a nice lead.

We're not doing badly, noone is saying we are, I just don't think we have enough firepower to really compete, if we had some goals up front I'd be much more confident as we'd be able to play a different game (especially if we had pace) and perhaps be more unpredictable, as it stands I just think that's a major hindrance for us.

[Niall_Quinn]

What is the purpose and ambition of sport? From the point of view of the sportsman as opposed to the fan? Is it just to win, at any cost? Or is it to achieve in direct competition with your peers at the highest level? If we are to fawn over city then why don't we hold the sprinter Ben Johnson is high esteem? He blew Lewis away in the Olympics, he was unbeatable. There is a difference, city haven't broken the rules (if you ignore their accounting and sponsorship frauds). Johnson took drugs in contravention of the rules. But what if the Olympic Committee had ruled in favour of drugs? Would Johnson then be exonerated and rightfully elevated to champion status? Would any of the results in sprinting be valid any more? Or would it be a farce? The FA has allowed the equivalent of drug cheating but on a financial level. They have allowed the most unsavoury individuals to inject however much cash it takes to win at any cost. This is what city looks like to me, Ben Johnson throwing his arms in the air as he beat Lewis to the line and those God awful commentators falling over themselves to express superlatives.

[Özim]

Momentum can explain the spanking, a decision goes the other way gives the opposing team some confidence and in-turn takes some wind out of City's sails and the all conquering juggernaut we're seeing comes grinding to a halt.
City are a great side in terrifying form, however, I feel a lot of that is due to confidence, which is something that can be further boosted when you know the refs pulling for you.

I agree, however they've been scoring plenty of goals, it's a bit like us in the old days, when we went behind we always felt we had the quality and firepower to turn it around (and we did so many times), with the amount of goals in that team you just feel going behind isn't a big issue for them as they can score goals for fun. The fact is goals gives you confidence, it's quite common for a team to go on a winning run after knocking in 4-5 goals against one team, the fact they've been doing this with so much regularity it only going to strengthen their belief that they can beat anyone whatever the situation.

Even if they're 2-0 down, they have so many goalscorers you would never feel the game is over.

[Niall_Quinn]

When do we start to believe?

Yesterday.

Today is a new day though.

[IBK]

I'm afraid that all I believe in now is that we may finish third rather than fourth. No team does as well as us while underwhelming at the same time. We're almost unique in this.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

On :coffee:

[Syn]

On :coffee:

only if we win at Anfield on Saturday.

[Marc Overmars]

It will come down to the 6 pointers with City and Chelsea in March.

I feel we will all dispatch the pub teams consistently so no one will pull away.

[Syn]

There's a level between the 6 pointers against Man City and Chelsea, and the proles.

And in that level, we have games like Liverpool away, Everton away, Man Utd at home and Tottenham away. That's near 30% of our remaining games - I.e. Non trivial.

In order to get into the position where the Man City and Chelsea games will decide the title, we've got to put aside, say, 3 out of those 4 teams. That's going to be difficult. A win at Anfield would set things up a lot better.

[AFC Leveller]

In terms of topb 4 finish, things are looking rosy at the moment with msot of our rivals 8 or more points behind.

In terms of the title, we'll push City close and we'll be a lot closer to them than we were to man ure last season but as has bene pointed out, we have some really tough fixtures to come and i (and many on here id imagine) dont see us winning or not losing them all.

[Ollie the Optimist]

this time last year, after 24 games, we had 38 points. this year we have 55. huge improvement.

the final 14 games of last season, we won 35 points out of 42. do that again this year, we will be champions

[A Gunner]

What Wenger said about journalists applies to us fans too. Before we actually win something, there will always be a doubt with every lost, so we can only hope the team actually win something. And also because the last time we've won the league, we were way way way too "convincing", even though it wasn't the case, as someone pointed out even The Invincibles had problems too, even at those times I feel we were fragile and I feel this team is "stronger" after loses than The Invincible.

[selassie]

There's a level between the 6 pointers against Man City and Chelsea, and the proles.

And in that level, we have games like Liverpool away, Everton away, Man Utd at home and Tottenham away. That's near 30% of our remaining games - I.e. Non trivial.

In order to get into the position where the Man City and Chelsea games will decide the title, we've got to put aside, say, 3 out of those 4 teams. That's going to be difficult. A win at Anfield would set things up a lot better.

This

[selassie]

I think it's safe to say the next few weeks is going to pretty much shape our season. I think by this time next week we will really understand where we are in regards to our title challenge.

I personally feel we need to beat both Liverpool and Man Utd if we want to win PL, though 4 points of out of possible 6 would not be bad, though I think that would put pressure on us to beat one of Chelsea or Man City.

Whatever happens it's going to be exciting and it's nice being involved in a title race and the major cup competitions.

Fixtures

Premier League Liverpool V Arsenal Sat 8 Feb 12:45
Premier League Arsenal V Man Utd Wed 12 Feb 19:45
FA Cup - Fifth Round Arsenal V Liverpool Sun 16 Feb 16:00
Champions League - Champ Lg Round of 16 Arsenal V Bayern Munich Wed 19 Feb 19:45
Premier League Arsenal V Sunderland Sat 22 Feb 15:00
Premier League Stoke V Arsenal Sat 1 Mar 15:00

[Marc Overmars]

Nah. Don't believe anymore and I don't think I will unless I see that trophy with our name engraved on it.

We could not be anymore unconvincing.

[milla]

This thread :haha:

[Arsenaladdict]

only if we win at Anfield on Saturday.

next season then

maybe

[selassie]

Hold tights Lads....

http://techpinions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/great-ships-the-titanic.jpg

[Özim]

Hold tights Lads....

http://techpinions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/great-ships-the-titanic.jpg

Wenger will be on that ship telling people they will make it home if they stay on the ship!

[Ernesto]

I hope, and it's not going to happen, but I hope that we "throw" the game against Bayern Munich in the Champions League. Put all our eggs in two baskets- the cup and the league.

I know it could all go disastrously wrong for us in the league (the thought of being above Chelsea only for them to overtake us with à defeat at Stamford Bridge sickens me) but the more painstaking results would occur in the Champions League. If, shock of all shocks, we manage to get past Bayern, it's only going to get more difficult for us later in the draw.

This squad now is only really equipped to take on the league and the FA Cup. No more.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I suspect that we don't actually have to 'throw' anything against Bayern, but I hope we beat them. How we do it - I'm not so sure - we just are lacking in so many areas. Too many injuries and not enoughdone to compensate for them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I suspect that we don't actually have to 'throw' anything against Bayern, but I hope we beat them. How we do it - I'm not so sure - we just are lacking in so many areas. Too many injuries and not enoughdone to compensate for them.

Yesterday made me believe....believe that this will be a ninth straight season without a trophy....oh i forgot we get a trophy each year with champions league qualification. Anyone else feel like hitting Wenger with a ming vase everytime he comes out with that shit?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Yesterday made me believe....believe that this will be a ninth straight season without a trophy....oh i forgot we get a trophy each year with champions league qualification. Anyone else feel like hitting Wenger with a ming vase everytime he comes out with that shit?

Too be honest, I read that at least 2% more from posters here.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Too be honest, I read that at least 2% more from posters here.

Well they deserve hitting as well, though maybe with something less expensive

Champions League qualification is not a trophy

[Xhaka Can’t]

Well they deserve hitting as well, though maybe with something less expensive

Champions League qualification is not a trophy

I meant people digging up old quotes. I agree it isn't a trophy, but it is important. It is pretty much a result of the importance of CL qualification, that the FA Cup has become devalued (wrongly imo).

[Munchies]

Another trophyless season awaits...

Fuck sake Wenger.

Pay-rise for him though :coffee:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

FA cup is #on too :coffee:

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Treble is ours for the taking. :coffee: #believe

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

It's over.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why Wenger why?

I'm so :banghead:

[selassie]

I think we lost any belief of winning the title after getting destroyed at Anfield. The most important thing is to keep hold of 4th place because the likes of Chelsea, City & Liverpool will finish comfortably ahead of us IMHO. We still have to go to Goodison & Shite Hart Lane so top 4 is by no means a given.

[AFC Leveller]

predicitons for our next 5 games:

(W) SWANSEA.
(L) SPURS
(D) CHELSEA
(L) CITY
(W) EVERTON

7 from 15. Top 4 winning form.

[AFC Leveller]

I think we lost any belief of winning the title after getting destroyed at Anfield. The most important thing is to keep hold of 4th place because the likes of Chelsea, City & Liverpool will finish comfortably ahead of us IMHO. We still have to go to Goodison & Shite Hart Lane so top 4 is by no means a given.

Yeah i agree. Although we beat them the following week in the cup, momentum has shifted since and they have overtaken us having been 7 points behind before the game (could be wrong).

[Xhaka Can’t]

predicitons for our next 5 games:

(W) SWANSEA.
(L) SPURS
(D) CHELSEA
(L) CITY
(W) EVERTON

7 from 15. Top 4 winning form.

I reckon we'll win the WHL fixture, lose the one at the Bridge and draw against Everton.

[Marc Overmars]

We'll need to win at least 2 or 3 of the death run.

In all honesty I'd be impressed if we managed to win one.

[selassie]

We'll need to win at least 2 or 3 of the death run.

In all honesty I'd be impressed if we managed to win one.

Yeah me too, pretty sad it's come to this. I personally think the Chelsea and City games are write-offs, I would honestly be very very surprised if we got anything out of either games. Everton game is a draw or loss, Spurs game is hard to predict, it's the only one I feel confident of getting anything from.

[Ernesto]

I'm rather more confident when we play Chelsea at the Bridge. Even Mourinho's only ever beaten us once there (thanks to an offside goal that came off Drogba's shin). We'd do well to win, but we'd have to play very badly to lose.

The City game I can't call. We could lose 0-5 if we don't keep our defensive shape or we could squeeze out a narrow win if we start like we did against bayern Munich.

The Spurs game, like many have said on here, is looking like an Arsenal win (is 3 wins in one season against them too much to ask for, though?)

Everton's the one we'll lose.

[Xhaka Can’t]

At the time of the draw against Chelsea, I too thought that we'd have more luck away at the Bridge as Chelsea would be more adventurous, but we just do not have the pace to exploit that now. Also, our strikers need around 3 or 4 gilt-edged chances to score one and you just don't get that level of opportunity against Chelsea.

[Gubby Allen]

predicitons for our next 5 games:

(W) SWANSEA.
(L) SPURS
(D) CHELSEA
(L) CITY
(W) EVERTON

7 from 15. Top 4 winning form.

My prediction is that we might win some of those games, we might lose some of them. We may even draw some. But none of it counts for s**t really because we'll finish 4th regardless.

[RomfordPele]

Hmm, Spurs are only six points behind us now, they play us at home in a few weeks and have a fairly easy run-in. I really hope our team (and manager) aren't as complacent as some of the comments on here. It's going to be very tight indeed for 4th place as it was always going to be.

It makes Wenger's breathtaking lethargy and arrogance during the transfer window all the more maddening. Maybe this is the year it finally catches up with him?

[Master Splinter]

Haven't we been on the verge of it catching up with us for the last ten years?

And no run-ins are easy. If we do go by that logic though, ours is too. So we'll finish third comfortably.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How is our run-in supposedly tough and Tottenham's is not? I don't get it.

[Chippy]

http://www.southleedslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/premier-league-trophy1.jpg
Once Wenger packs his bags! :)

[Master Splinter]

How is our run-in supposedly tough and Tottenham's is not? I don't get it.

I don't mind wild, irrational jumps in sense and logic.

As long they are applied equally and consistently.

[RomfordPele]

Haven't we ceen on the vergd of it catching up with us for the lastten years?

And no run-ins are aasy. If we do go by that logic though, ours is too. So ve'll finish third comfortably.

Yes, both teams have decent run-ins from mid April (barring us playing Everton away, which will be a to

[AFC Leveller]

Spurs still have to go to Chelsea and Anfield as well as play us so i wouldnt say their un in is easy.

However, i think 3 wins from our next 5 games (tough) would more or less guarantee top 4.

[IBK]

It gives me little pleasure to say that I have always been sceptical about how much progress we have made this season - and I'm afraid that the smart money says that we will finish fourth, as usual, and may even be in a scrap with Spurs for a CL place, depending what happens at the shithole. Key features of this season?

- Continued failure to beat the top teams. Yes we've beaten Liverpool at home twice, but we have always had the odd surprising result, and lets face it we were very lucky in the FA Cup match. The single point in 2 games against a floundering Manure team says more for me about our midset in this regard.

- Tactical naivity. At full strength, our players are better than most other teams', and it has shown. But for me, Wenger has been shown to be alarmingly vulnerable - not only to the likes of Mourinho and Pellegrini, but to younger, bolder managers such as Rogers; Pochettino and even Steve Clarke. We are predictable, and have rarely dominated games.

- Incompetence in the transfer market. The world and his wife can see that we were left too short in key areas both in the Summer and in the December transfer window. While the Suarez scenario now reflects rather better on AFC than it did, the Kallsrom fiasco - both in terms of targeting the player; proceeding with bringing an injured player in, and failing to do anything else speaks volumes (can you believe that with only 2 months to go in the season he still has no return date!!!!!?) . It is clear to me that in terms of transfers Dein was as important to Wenger as Taylor was to Clough on the playing side.

- There is a serious question mark over Wenger's ability to spend money. Whatever excuses are made - the reality is that for 42M, Ozil has been a massive disappointment for us. He has not been what this team needs; has not stepped up to the plate as the main man; has shown remarkable mental frailty and has so far been a waste of money. As matters stand, he looks like a Wenger vanity purchase. A player whose skill Wenger admires, and who became available, but who was not bought with proper insight into how he would interact with the players at Wengers's disposal. OK, he might progress next season, but for me, you don't spend 42M on a 'future project' - you spend it to make a difference now. Suarez; Rooney; Ronaldo; Bale; Aguero; Toure etc etc all have huge mental strength and a will to win. That is partly what you are buying. Hell, even our own players such as Ramsey; Kossy; Sczcesny....Eboue (FFS) have shown mental toughness that we certainly have not seen from Ozil . That is a real worry - and in keeping with a traditional Wenger blind spot.

- As usual, we have been decimated by injuries/lack of condition. Our best player sidelined for more than half a season; our quickest and improving winger/striker plays for only 1/4 of a season; our 11M German forward seemingly injured then out of condition for most of the season (another Wenger waste of money?); It cannot be pure co-incidence that every season our key players are out injured - and over playing/rushing players back from injury because we are either too stretched or the manager will not have faith in his alternatives has to be part of the problem.

- And lastly - our playing style. Whisper it quietly, but there is a reason why Liverpool are flavour of the season, and Citeh are feted, despite buying their success. Its because they play scinitllating, entertaining football. Other entertainers are Everton; Southampton - even Sp*rs at times. We however, no longer entertain on a regular basis. Sure - in Wilshere's and Rosicky's goals we have candidates for team goals of the season - but this is rare. Efficiency and possession football would be fine if it was getting us any further than we had before, but it isn't, and its dull to watch most of the time.

So - when do we start to believe? I have remained to be convinced most of the season - and what I see now is the same fourth place trophy as we perennially win.

[selassie]

It gives me little pleasure to say that I have always been sceptical about how much progress we have made this season - and I'm afraid that the smart money says that we will finish fourth, as usual, and may even be in a scrap with Spurs for a CL place, depending what happens at the shithole. Key features of this season?

- Continued failure to beat the top teams. Yes we've beaten Liverpool at home twice, but we have always had the odd surprising result, and lets face it we were very lucky in the FA Cup match. The single point in 2 games against a floundering Manure team says more for me about our midset in this regard.

- Tactical naivity. At full strength, our players are better than most other teams', and it has shown. But for me, Wenger has been shown to be alarmingly vulnerable - not only to the likes of Mourinho and Pellegrini, but to younger, bolder managers such as Rogers; Pochettino and even Steve Clarke. We are predictable, and have rarely dominated games.

- Incompetence in the transfer market. The world and his wife can see that we were left too short in key areas both in the Summer and in the December transfer window. While the Suarez scenario now reflects rather better on AFC than it did, the Kallsrom fiasco - both in terms of targeting the player; proceeding with bringing an injured player in, and failing to do anything else speaks volumes (can you believe that with only 2 months to go in the season he still has no return date!!!!!?) . It is clear to me that in terms of transfers Dein was as important to Wenger as Taylor was to Clough on the playing side.

- There is a serious question mark over Wenger's ability to spend money. Whatever excuses are made - the reality is that for 42M, Ozil has been a massive disappointment for us. He has not been what this team needs; has not stepped up to the plate as the main man; has shown remarkable mental frailty and has so far been a waste of money. As matters stand, he looks like a Wenger vanity purchase. A player whose skill Wenger admires, and who became available, but who was not bought with proper insight into how he would interact with the players at Wengers's disposal. OK, he might progress next season, but for me, you don't spend 42M on a 'future project' - you spend it to make a difference now. Suarez; Rooney; Ronaldo; Bale; Aguero; Toure etc etc all have huge mental strength and a will to win. That is partly what you are buying. Hell, even our own players such as Ramsey; Kossy; Sczcesny....Eboue (FFS) have shown mental toughness that we certainly have not seen from Ozil . That is a real worry - and in keeping with a traditional Wenger blind spot.

- As usual, we have been decimated by injuries/lack of condition. Our best player sidelined for more than half a season; our quickest and improving winger/striker plays for only 1/4 of a season; our 11M German forward seemingly injured then out of condition for most of the season (another Wenger waste of money?); It cannot be pure co-incidence that every season our key players are out injured - and over playing/rushing players back from injury because we are either too stretched or the manager will not have faith in his alternatives has to be part of the problem.

- And lastly - our playing style. Whisper it quietly, but there is a reason why Liverpool are flavour of the season, and Citeh are feted, despite buying their success. Its because they play scinitllating, entertaining football. Other entertainers are Everton; Southampton - even Sp*rs at times. We however, no longer entertain on a regular basis. Sure - in Wilshere's and Rosicky's goals we have candidates for team goals of the season - but this is rare. Efficiency and possession football would be fine if it was getting us any further than we had before, but it isn't, and its dull to watch most of the time.

So - when do we start to believe? I have remained to be convinced most of the season - and what I see now is the same fourth place trophy as we perennially win.

:gp:

Excellent Post, agree with all of this.

[LDG]

He could have added a few positives, tbf.

[IBK]

He could have added a few positives, tbf.

I could have done - but the thread is entitled when do we start to believe (and I think this was a reference to winning the title, or at least that we have made a step change). While there have indeed been encouraging signs in terms of our defence, and some of our developmental players - what I have tried to analyse is why, particularly relative to the teams immediately around us, there has been little real change as we currently stand.

[LDG]

Don't get me wrong. You always write very well, and I get your points. But you're also losing sight of some key things, which, is a consequence of the ability to judge a team whenever is convenient, ignoring some of the other factors which are extremely important, and aren't just a reaction at any given time.

Liverpool are unique this year, in that they have clicked wonderfully well up top, but also haven't had to deal with too much by way of fatigue, rotation etc, meaning they have been able to field a consistent eleven. We all know how important it is to have "relationships" on the pitch. Couple that with one superstar player, and it's not hard to see why they have been a success. I would has at a guess that throwing in ECL football next term, and testing their squad (which needs serious investment....and lets not forget they have a 50m loss on thier books this tem) will see them struggle a little more.....they're also not under the spotlight in the same way our team are.

City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them.

And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?

Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop.

i) It's his first season in a new league. Yes, some players adapt straight away, but lots don't. There are very few who set a trailblazing run of form in their first term. A player of his calibre will succeed given the time.

ii) You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME.

As far as our style of play goes. Well, I'm sorry, but playing the way we play (frustrating as it is) requires things to drop into place. There are still pieces of the jigsaw to put together. We can all see that.

We have all been patient, so I get the wish to see us sweep to glory NOW. But when you look at what has actually happened over the last year or so, it does bode well, but it won't happen over night. We still need our star striker. Desperately. But when we have him....I for one believe that it will change the whole team. The style, the movement etc. But also, it's like connecting the electricity to all of the other components.

Do I believe? Yes. Can we win it this year, now? Not so sure. But I don't think many of us did.

[JonasTC]

:gp:

[AFC Leveller]

Don't get me wrong. You always write very well, and I get your points. But you're also losing sight of some key things, which, is a consequence of the ability to judge a team whenever is convenient, ignoring some of the other factors which are extremely important, and aren't just a reaction at any given time.

Liverpool are unique this year, in that they have clicked wonderfully well up top, but also haven't had to deal with too much by way of fatigue, rotation etc, meaning they have been able to field a consistent eleven. We all know how important it is to have "relationships" on the pitch. Couple that with one superstar player, and it's not hard to see why they have been a success. I would has at a guess that throwing in ECL football next term, and testing their squad (which needs serious investment....and lets not forget they have a 50m loss on thier books this tem) will see them struggle a little more.....they're also not under the spotlight in the same way our team are.

City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them.

And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?

Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop.

i) It's his first season in a new league. Yes, some players adapt straight away, but lots don't. There are very few who set a trailblazing run of form in their first term. A player of his calibre will succeed given the time.

ii) You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME.

As far as our style of play goes. Well, I'm sorry, but playing the way we play (frustrating as it is) requires things to drop into place. There are still pieces of the jigsaw to put together. We can all see that.

We have all been patient, so I get the wish to see us sweep to glory NOW. But when you look at what has actually happened over the last year or so, it does bode well, but it won't happen over night. We still need our star striker. Desperately. But when we have him....I for one believe that it will change the whole team. The style, the movement etc. But also, it's like connecting the electricity to all of the other components.

Do I believe? Yes. Can we win it this year, now? Not so sure. But I don't think many of us did.

Good post.

I think this team is crying out for Suarez (note: nota A Suarez but Suarez himself because he's one of a kind). We need a lethal player, a guy who runs, terrifies defenders, wins his duals, scores goals in the tight games etc. We dont have that right now and the fact that we have challenged is a testament to the squad and management team.

[saintnickle]

Don't get me wrong. You always write very well, and I get your points. But you're also losing sight of some key things, which, is a consequence of the ability to judge a team whenever is convenient, ignoring some of the other factors which are extremely important, and aren't just a reaction at any given time.

Liverpool are unique this year, in that they have clicked wonderfully well up top, but also haven't had to deal with too much by way of fatigue, rotation etc, meaning they have been able to field a consistent eleven. We all know how important it is to have "relationships" on the pitch. Couple that with one superstar player, and it's not hard to see why they have been a success. I would has at a guess that throwing in ECL football next term, and testing their squad (which needs serious investment....and lets not forget they have a 50m loss on thier books this tem) will see them struggle a little more.....they're also not under the spotlight in the same way our team are.

City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them.

And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?

Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop.

i) It's his first season in a new league. Yes, some players adapt straight away, but lots don't. There are very few who set a trailblazing run of form in their first term. A player of his calibre will succeed given the time.

ii) You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME.

As far as our style of play goes. Well, I'm sorry, but playing the way we play (frustrating as it is) requires things to drop into place. There are still pieces of the jigsaw to put together. We can all see that.

We have all been patient, so I get the wish to see us sweep to glory NOW. But when you look at what has actually happened over the last year or so, it does bode well, but it won't happen over night. We still need our star striker. Desperately. But when we have him....I for one believe that it will change the whole team. The style, the movement etc. But also, it's like connecting the electricity to all of the other components.

Do I believe? Yes. Can we win it this year, now? Not so sure. But I don't think many of us did.

A few more points which point to our manager.

1." City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them."

Its is hardly city and chelsea's fault that our squad is threadbare .Surely that is down to the manager who sold off or offloaded over 18 players in the summer and replaced them with 4 players the likes of which only 1 plays reguarly

2."And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?"

Its uniteds worst season probably in over 20 years and they will more than likely win as much as us.And spurs have as much chance of winning the europa cup as we have the fa cup.

3."Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop."

You fail to mention that everyone with half a brain knew it was obvious this team needed a striker in august and jan.What did we do ?We went and bought a midfielder.And if were being realistic if we had beaten villa in the first home game he probably would of kept the money in the bank.

4."You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME."

Whilst i agree that he needs time you cannot blame his performances since december on the rest of the team .Thats ludicrous and clutching at straws.Theres times when he doesnt look look like he wants to be here and for the money we paid you think he would be performing.

[saintnickle]

Good post.

I think this team is crying out for Suarez (note: nota A Suarez but Suarez himself because he's one of a kind). We need a lethal player, a guy who runs, terrifies defenders, wins his duals, scores goals in the tight games etc. We dont have that right now and the fact that we have challenged is a testament to the squad and management team.

So who's fault is it that we dont have a quality striker this season??Nobodys??Why on earth is next august different from this one and january.

[Letters]

Its is hardly city and chelsea's fault that our squad is threadbare
No, but no matter who our manager is there's no way we can compete with them in the transfer or salary market.
We can't buy £30m players and have them on the bench as backup like they can. Our squad does need to be stronger but if we buy an expensive flop there is a consequence, with City and Chelsea there isn't, they can just keep on spending till they get it right.

[saintnickle]

No, but no matter who our manager is there's no way we can compete with them in the transfer or salary market.
We can't buy £30m players and have them on the bench as backup like they can. Our squad does need to be stronger but if we buy an expensive flop there is a consequence, with City and Chelsea there isn't, they can just keep on spending till they get it right.

Was ozil not on the bench against stoke??And arshavin spent most of his arsenal career warming it as well?

[Power n Glory]

Good post.

I think this team is crying out for Suarez (note: nota A Suarez but Suarez himself because he's one of a kind). We need a lethal player, a guy who runs, terrifies defenders, wins his duals, scores goals in the tight games etc. We dont have that right now and the fact that we have challenged is a testament to the squad and management team.

Ozil has to be held accountable for his performances. Chelsea have been without a world class striker for a while now and that didn’t stop Mata or Hazard from stepping up to the plate. It didn’t stop Cazorla last season. We should be seeing more from Ozil and I guess we’ll have to wait until next season.

[Letters]

Was ozil not on the bench against stoke??And arshavin spent most of his arsenal career warming it as well?

That's a really stupid post, I'm sure you know why.

[JonasTC]

As far as i know, Özil is one of the players that have created most chances in the premier League, he would probably have been top assister if our players had not failed to score on them.

[LDG]

As far as i know, Özil is one of the players that have created most chances in the premier League, he would probably have been top assister if our players had not failed to score on them.


http://news.arseblog.com/2014/03/ozil-not-concerned-by-press-criticism/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Mesut Ozil says he pays no real attention to the criticism that has been cast his way in recent weeks.

While acknowledging his form hasn’t been as good as he would like, the German international says that’s a natural consequence of settling into a new country and a new league.

He also suggests the English press will find something else to write about in a few weeks time when he stops being ‘flavour’ of the Fleet Street month.

“Nearly every player who is new to Premier League needs time to settle in,” he said to Bild.

“Here, you meet other challenges. It was clear that I would endure a difficult spell because I missed all of Arsenal’s pre-season preparation.

“There was a time when I was not satisfied with my performances either, but I have come through this phase. I don’t concern myself too much with the criticism.

“Three weeks ago they wrote totally different stories and, in three weeks’ time, they’ll write different stories once again. That’s part of the business in England.”

:faint:

[JonasTC]

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I just stated a fact in support of that he hasnt been as bad as people make him out to be (Arsenals Torres, etc.), can he be better? Most certainly, and im sure he will be :)

[LDG]

I give up.

[Letters]

:patrice:

[IBK]

Don't get me wrong. You always write very well, and I get your points. But you're also losing sight of some key things, which, is a consequence of the ability to judge a team whenever is convenient, ignoring some of the other factors which are extremely important, and aren't just a reaction at any given time.

Liverpool are unique this year, in that they have clicked wonderfully well up top, but also haven't had to deal with too much by way of fatigue, rotation etc, meaning they have been able to field a consistent eleven. We all know how important it is to have "relationships" on the pitch. Couple that with one superstar player, and it's not hard to see why they have been a success. I would has at a guess that throwing in ECL football next term, and testing their squad (which needs serious investment....and lets not forget they have a 50m loss on thier books this tem) will see them struggle a little more.....they're also not under the spotlight in the same way our team are.

City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them.

And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?

Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop.

i) It's his first season in a new league. Yes, some players adapt straight away, but lots don't. There are very few who set a trailblazing run of form in their first term. A player of his calibre will succeed given the time.

ii) You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME.

As far as our style of play goes. Well, I'm sorry, but playing the way we play (frustrating as it is) requires things to drop into place. There are still pieces of the jigsaw to put together. We can all see that.

We have all been patient, so I get the wish to see us sweep to glory NOW. But when you look at what has actually happened over the last year or so, it does bode well, but it won't happen over night. We still need our star striker. Desperately. But when we have him....I for one believe that it will change the whole team. The style, the movement etc. But also, it's like connecting the electricity to all of the other components.

Do I believe? Yes. Can we win it this year, now? Not so sure. But I don't think many of us did.

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

[Power n Glory]

:gp:


We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

That's a strong point.

[LDG]

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

Shittin' hell :lol:

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

[Özim]

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

[Globalgunner]

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

You also have to hand it to many posters here who have swallowed the bait line,hook and sinker and in every post talk of nothing else except how City and Chelsea have spoilt every prospect of us making progress, how they have bought every single player that could improve our team. How they tried to buy Ozil from under our noses, surreptitiously goaded Madrid into increasing the price of Higuain, Confused Suarez about the contents of his release clause and made sure Wenger had no choice but to play Almunia for 5 seasons even though he was gash. They are also poisoning Diabys bath water to ensure he cant take us to the next level. Finally they messed with Girouds inner ear to ensure he swings and mostly misses
hate them Chavs and Gypos

[IBK]

Shittin' hell :lol:

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

Yes - but then a forum would be pretty pointless. I'd honestly like to know what specifically to take issue with. You can list it and I won't reply in more than 2 lines (typed enough today!)

[IBK]

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

[Özim]

It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.

[Globalgunner]

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

[Özim]

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

:lol: Probably but he's got no hope with Ferguson's players, they're not his players and I don't think they believe in him.

[saintnickle]

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

That is a top post my friend.Sums everything up completely

[IBK]

I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.


Aye - the problem is indeed whether Wenger - particularly at his age and with his stubborn philosophy - can achieve the fundamental change that is needed. Your observation about Wenger is absolutely spot on - and has been magnified even more by having a majority shareholding whose very investment strategy is dependent upon Wenger being at the helm. Because while Wenger has, frankly, failed in the true football sense for the past decade - he is an investor's wet dream - and an almost unprecedented salesman of the future. There will always be jam tomorrow, even though there's none today, as a certain poster used to say!

Optimists like LDG feel that Ozil is the glue that will suddenly make his methods and his team reach their true potential. I am much more circumspect. I worry whether there is really a proper plan, or whether Ozil was a vanity purchase and bought simply because he is a prime exponent of the type of footballer that Wenger most admires. We will see - but there have been so many false dawns over the past few years that I feel the Wenger doubters can hardly be criticised. What is most likely finally to kill of the waverers like me, however, is sheer fatigue with a situation that never seems to really change.

[LDG]

Aye - the problem is indeed whether Wenger - particularly at his age and with his stubborn philosophy - can achieve the fundamental change that is needed. Your observation about Wenger is absolutely spot on - and has been magnified even more by having a majority shareholding whose very investment strategy is dependent upon Wenger being at the helm. Because while Wenger has, frankly, failed in the true football sense for the past decade - he is an investor's wet dream - and an almost unprecedented salesman of the future. There will always be jam tomorrow, even though there's none today, as a certain poster used to say!

Optimists like LDG feel that Ozil is the glue that will suddenly make his methods and his team reach their true potential. I am much more circumspect. I worry whether there is really a proper plan, or whether Ozil was a vanity purchase and bought simply because he is a prime exponent of the type of footballer that Wenger most admires. We will see - but there have been so many false dawns over the past few years that I feel the Wenger doubters can hardly be criticised. What is most likely finally to kill of the waverers like me, however, is sheer fatigue with a situation that never seems to really change.

Eh? Where have I said that? :blink:

[IBK]

Eh? Where have I said that? :blink:

Soz - just re-read your post. You were talking about a star striker, not Ozil...:good:

[LDG]

Soz - just re-read your post. You were talking about a star striker, not Ozil...:good:

:good:

With a pinch of salt too :d

It's difficult to be certain, quite obviously, and I have no idea what Wenger's plans are for a striker (he does seem to like his big lads at the moment).

What I was trying to get at, is that in buying someone more Suarez-like, with movement and pace, it opens the team up. Imagine if you will, "Suarez" in the middle, Walcott out wide, with Ozil utilising that movement and speed.

But it's not just him that will benefit (IMO). Imagine Liverpool without Suarez (all season...not just a few games for biting someone). He opens the door for everyone else, does he not? Who's to say Wilshere doesn't suddenly have someone to aim at. And wouldn't it be nice that someone is running in behind for a change, rather than passing it sideways accross two banks of four?

And as far as being "optimistic" goes....well, I'm not sure I'd call myself a die-hard optimist. I just try and be rational, and give benefit of the doubt where I can. I'd rather go to a football match hoping (sometimes expecting) a win, than start laying into it before.

Like I said. Lots of your points are very valid. There are issues that need to be addressed. But we're in an age where everything is analysed to the nth degree, rather than just seeing an obvious improvement to date, with some potential, and hope to come :shrug:

[Power n Glory]

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

[AFC Leveller]

I guess we;ll have to wait until we has a full pre season with the club and starts from scratch like everyone else.

However, he has been below par and looks like he's finding the pace and physical apsect of things a bit too much.

[IBK]

:good:

With a pinch of salt too :d

It's difficult to be certain, quite obviously, and I have no idea what Wenger's plans are for a striker (he does seem to like his big lads at the moment).

What I was trying to get at, is that in buying someone more Suarez-like, with movement and pace, it opens the team up. Imagine if you will, "Suarez" in the middle, Walcott out wide, with Ozil utilising that movement and speed.

But it's not just him that will benefit (IMO). Imagine Liverpool without Suarez (all season...not just a few games for biting someone). He opens the door for everyone else, does he not? Who's to say Wilshere doesn't suddenly have someone to aim at. And wouldn't it be nice that someone is running in behind for a change, rather than passing it sideways accross two banks of four?

And as far as being "optimistic" goes....well, I'm not sure I'd call myself a die-hard optimist. I just try and be rational, and give benefit of the doubt where I can. I'd rather go to a football match hoping (sometimes expecting) a win, than start laying into it before.

Like I said. Lots of your points are very valid. There are issues that need to be addressed. But we're in an age where everything is analysed to the nth degree, rather than just seeing an obvious improvement to date, with some potential, and hope to come :shrug:


I take all that - and agree strongly that a Suarez type forward with his movement might open us up - because that what we are bereft of on a consistent basis - in and around the opposition area.

Where I take a teensy bit of issue is the implication that those of us who are struggling to give the team the benefit of the doubt are irrational, whereas those that are willing to do so are rational. You probably didn;t mean it like that - and I would agree that the more reactionary posters on here could be considered irrational. But we have seen so many false dawns with this team, and been invited to invest in the future for so long. I guess it comes down to whether overall one sees a real difference in that this season. You do, and I don't (see any step change) - but on the facts as we see them each opinion is as justified (and rational) as the other.

As for games. I also go hoping for a win. Every time. And no Gooner would be more delighted than I am if we confound expectations and blitz our daunting coming run. If we do - THAT will be a step change!

[IBK]

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

Second that. :good:

[selassie]

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

Yep

:gp:

[fakeyank]

Seems like Joel Campbell scored another scorcher in midweek, so we have Suarez's ready made replacement coming in next season. A new signing! :trophy:

[WMUG]

Squeaky bum time. :popcorn:

Not sure there can be anyone left who thinks we've got no chance, all about whether we can be the best of a very good (if expensively purchased) bunch. Not been this excited since 2008, and we all know how well that went :dance:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We'll be ahead of Chelsea if we win our next two. :pray:

[Marc Overmars]

We'll need to win at least one of the game with Chelsea and City realistically but I don't think we will.

[Injury Time]

We'll need to win at least one of the game with Chelsea and City realistically but I don't think we will.

You think we'll win both don't you, you sly dawg you...

[IBK]

A great result against Spurs today, and a decent cup performance last week. But we were pretty hopeless against Spurs - 1st 25 mins aside - and logic says that we won't scrap the same result against Chelsea and Citeh. If we do - great. But like it always seems to be with Arsenal - the jury's still out.

[selassie]

A great result against Spurs today, and a decent cup performance last week. But we were pretty hopeless against Spurs - 1st 25 mins aside - and logic says that we won't scrap the same result against Chelsea and Citeh. If we do - great. But like it always seems to be with Arsenal - the jury's still out.

Pretty much this, really great result today which has gone a long way towards cementing our top 4 place.

If personally think we need to win both the Chelsea and Citeh games if we stand any chance of winning PL. We also have the small matter of hoping Liverpool choke, I don't know about you guys but I have strong feeling Liverpool are going to do it this year, yep I fancy them for the title. They have Citeh and Chelsea both to come to Anfield and I can see them beating both of them.

[WMUG]

Pretty much this, really great result today which has gone a long way towards cementing our top 4 place.

If personally think we need to win both the Chelsea and Citeh games if we stand any chance of winning PL. We also have the small matter of hoping Liverpool choke, I don't know about you guys but I have strong feeling Liverpool are going to do it this year, yep I fancy them for the title. They have Citeh and Chelsea both to come to Anfield and I can see them beating both of them.
All that can be said with any certainty is that we need to beat at least one of the scum clubs, or at least avoid defeat in both games so that they don't pull away from us. There are far too many six-pointers between now and the end of the season to say that any team has a significant advantage, and the fact that they're shared between four teams makes it impossible to make any blanket statements about what we need to happen.

Singling out Liverpool at this point is assuming what can't possibly be known.

[Niall_Quinn]

As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.

[Letters]

I can't take us seriously as title contenders, we haven't got results in enough of the big games. In seasons where we have won it we've tended to do well in those games. If we win at Chelsea then I'll believe we have some chance but I doubt we will.

[Marc Overmars]

A win at Chelsea would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's a huge game and we could really change the perception of us as being the weakest challengers.

It's a huge ask to win there though, Mourinho has never lost a home game with them and always seems to have the beating of his rivals.

I'd splaff my pants if we somehow got the 3 points.

[WMUG]

I can't take us seriously as title contenders, we haven't got results in enough of the big games. In seasons where we have won it we've tended to do well in those games. If we win at Chelsea then I'll believe we have some chance but I doubt we will.

Spurs: P2, W2, D0 L0
United: P2, W0 D1, L1
Liverpool: P2 W1, D0, L1
Chelsea: P1, W0, D1, L0
City: P1, W0, D0, L1

Overall: P8, W3, D2, L3

We've won as many as we've lost, though granted not against title rivals. Not as good as it could've been, of course, but not a disaster. Losing to both scum clubs would obviously be disastrous, but from practically speaking, I don't think we need to beat both of them to stay in contention. It's as much, if not more, about taking points off our rivals as it is getting them ourselves. I reckon 2 points from those two games would be better than 3.

[Munchies]

Liverpool have the best fixture run really, all the big games are at home for them. And when you have the strikers they do, they can win a game against anyone.

But for us, do decent enough in the next 2 and who knows ?

[fakeyank]

We still have Everton away but I don't think we will have any chance with 2 more defeats.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

[Xhaka Can’t]

As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.

I don't know about that.

[AFC Leveller]

Liverpool have their destiny in their own hands and with their strikers scoring for fun and causing all sorts of problems, i can see them winning the league.

[selassie]

All that can be said with any certainty is that we need to beat at least one of the scum clubs, or at least avoid defeat in both games so that they don't pull away from us. There are far too many six-pointers between now and the end of the season to say that any team has a significant advantage, and the fact that they're shared between four teams makes it impossible to make any blanket statements about what we need to happen.

Singling out Liverpool at this point is assuming what can't possibly be known.

I think we need to more than avoid defeat, I think we need to win both, we are chasing not leading.

Of course anything can happen and my comments regarding Liverpool were more of a passing thought than a statement. My thoughts were aired given that a lot of comments are related to us having to beat Chelsea and City to assume top spot when in fact we have the small matter of Liverpool too. Liverpool are clearly the form team in the league and results wise are pretty much wiping the floor with everybody.

[Letters]

Spurs: P2, W2, D0 L0
United: P2, W0 D1, L1
Liverpool: P2 W1, D0, L1
Chelsea: P1, W0, D1, L0
City: P1, W0, D0, L1

Overall: P8, W3, D2, L3

We've won as many as we've lost, though granted not against title rivals. Not as good as it could've been, of course, but not a disaster. Losing to both scum clubs would obviously be disastrous, but from practically speaking, I don't think we need to beat both of them to stay in contention. It's as much, if not more, about taking points off our rivals as it is getting them ourselves. I reckon 2 points from those two games would be better than 3.
I wouldn't include Spurs or Utd. They are big games (seriously, how did we not beat Utd this year? :doh:), but neither are title rivals and those are the games I'm talking about.
In 97/98 that moment we won at Old Trafford, that was when I believed we could do it. If you can go to your title rivals and beat them in their back yard it shows you've got what it takes.
We beat Liverpool at home of course but we got a right thumping up there. City walloped us too although I thought we played pretty well that day. Chelsea at home was a pretty limp draw (although we'd have won if we had a real top class striker). If we can get a result at Stamford Bridge and beat City at our place we'll have a real chance IMO.

[WMUG]

I think we need to more than avoid defeat, I think we need to win both, we are chasing not leading.

Of course anything can happen and my comments regarding Liverpool were more of a passing thought than a statement. My thoughts were aired given that a lot of comments are related to us having to beat Chelsea and City to assume top spot when in fact we have the small matter of Liverpool too. Liverpool are clearly the form team in the league and results wise are pretty much wiping the floor with everybody.
Fair enough, but a lot of teams have been the form team in the league this season. The team everyone thinks will win it has changed so many times this season, and it's got enough time to change another 2 or 3 times before the end.

The reason I'm talking about the two scum clubs is because they're the ones we can do something about. We could still win all our games this season and have Liverpool finish above us because we don't play them again this season, but our season hinges massively on how we can do against City and Chelsea. Liverpool aren't really worth worrying about.

I wouldn't include Spurs or Utd. They are big games (seriously, how did we not beat Utd this year? :doh:), but neither are title rivals and those are the games I'm talking about.
In 97/98 that moment we won at Old Trafford, that was when I believed we could do it. If you can go to your title rivals and beat them in their back yard it shows you've got what it takes.
We beat Liverpool at home of course but we got a right thumping up there. City walloped us too although I thought we played pretty well that day. Chelsea at home was a pretty limp draw (although we'd have won if we had a real top class striker). If we can get a result at Stamford Bridge and beat City at our place we'll have a real chance IMO.

We aren't winning at the Bridge, nobody wins there, but we don't really need to to finish above Chelsea, given our game in hand. City at home is one we do need to win to have it in our own hands, and you might argue that that's what it takes to be a title contender, but empirically, it isn't. We can still be in contention without beating them, they've been dropping points where you wouldn't expect them to recently.

Of course, it goes without saying that we'd be in a much better position if we beat them – which I reckon we can, we're pretty good at nabbing a goal and defending for our lives this season – but I don't think it spells an end to our challenge if we get 2 points. Losing either would be awful, sure, but draw both and we could still see the least champion like champions ever to win the league.

[LDG]

Not only do we need to beat both Chelsea and City, we need to find some sort of form, because we are dire at the moment, and have been for some time (bar 25 mins against Bayern).

[Letters]

Agree we won't win on Saturday, if we get a draw then we're still in the race. I do feel we need to beat City though if we're going to have a chance.

[Letters]

Not only do we need to beat both Chelsea and City, we need to find some sort of form, because we are dire at the moment, and have been for some time (bar 25 mins against Bayern).
We were good against Everton too.

[LDG]

We were good against Everton too.

I 'spose.

I'm not trying to do us down, as we have put in an immense amount of effort, and defended really well.

We just don't seem to be playing very well since, well, before Christmas really. We've laboured through quite a few games. Our passing has been poor, and we can't seem to put even the most rubbish of sides to the sword in full on beast mode.

[WMUG]

Agree we won't win on Saturday, if we get a draw then we're still in the race. I do feel we need to beat City though if we're going to have a chance.

Maybe, but I think it's more important not to lose at the Bridge than it is to beat City. Would still love it if we beat them, love it, obviously.

[Zerlathon]

I'm sticking to quietly optimistic...

If we are still in the running after the Everton game, then I quite fancy our chances.

[Bumble]

Win our next three games and i think that will make us favourites. Chelsea have a pretty straight forward run in with the exception of away at Liverpool end of April. City have a tough run of games but have the best squad. Liverpool are the most on form team but still have a few tough games and could lose to someone sloppy.

[fakeyank]

Win and draw, draw and win or win and win in the next 2 games! That'll make me believe that we are there to challenge for the title.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

9 wins takes us up to 89 points.

That was Utd's tally last season and City's the year before.

If City win all their games they'll get to 93 but they'll undoubtedly drop points + we can take points off them when they visit the Emirates.

To put it in simple terms, we've got to win all our games to win the title. 89 will do it. But can we do it?

[I am invisible]

9 wins takes us up to 89 points.

That was Utd's tally last season and City's the year before.

If City win all their games they'll get to 93 but they'll undoubtedly drop points + we can take points off them when they visit the Emirates.

To put it in simple terms, we've got to win all our games to win the title. 89 will do it. But can we do it?

I personally don't think we'll do it, but I'm still pretty pleased with what I've seen from us this year - there's a very real chance of a trophy in the FA Cup, we've kept up with our rivals in the title race, leading the way for longer than any other team in the league along the way, and we've managed to do it without a decent striker and with a comparatively thin squad (when you look at the likes of Chelsea and City, that is)?! That's pretty incredible, even if you blame the club and the manager for why we currently lack that striker and have a thin squad. If we end the season within 3-5 points of the eventual winners, win the FA Cup, and if players like Ramsey and Oxlade-Chamberlain continue to surprise us, then I think we can call that good progress, and look forward to the summer / next season...

[Özil's Panoramic View]

9 wins takes us up to 89 points.

That was Utd's tally last season and City's the year before.

If City win all their games they'll get to 93 but they'll undoubtedly drop points + we can take points off them when they visit the Emirates.

To put it in simple terms, we've got to win all our games to win the title. 89 will do it. But can we do it?

Spot on.

Our bottling against the mancs and Stoke simply means there is no room for a point to be dropped if we're to win this thing.

[Letters]

Bottling :lol:

Sheesh! Sometimes you just don't win. Not every game where we fail to win is us bottling it.

[Özim]

It's a really tall order to expect us to win our remaining 9 matches IMO, given that Mourinho has never lost at Stamford Bridge and Wenger's record against him almost an impossibility.

[Özim]

Bottling :lol:

Sheesh! Sometimes you just don't win. Not every game where we fail to win is us bottling it.

Can't excuse our failure to beat Man U and to only get 1 point out of 6 against, that was truly terrible given the state they are in.

[Marc Overmars]

lol just lol at people who think we'll win it

[Xhaka Can’t]

lol just lol at people who think we'll win it

Lol just lol at you for thinking anyone said that.

[Marc Overmars]

I didn't think that about anyone specifically, I was just thinking out loud.

[Ollie the Optimist]

It's a really tall order to expect us to win our remaining 9 matches IMO, given that Mourinho has never lost at Stamford Bridge and Wenger's record against him almost an impossibility.

its also a tall order to expect the other top 3 sides to win their last 9 matches too.

its Arsene's 1000th game on saturday, no better way to celebrate then by beating that cunt especially as he wants what Arsene has. a legacy. people will talk about Arsene in years to come, he changed football for the better, but when mourinho goes, no one will talk about him

[Letters]

Can't excuse our failure to beat Man U and to only get 1 point out of 6 against, that was truly terrible given the state they are in.

I presume you're excusing Chelsea's failure to beat Villa though.

We definitely should have beaten Utd this year but bad results will always happen to every club in every season.

[Letters]

I didn't think that about anyone specifically, I was just thinking out loud.
You weren't thinking or doing it out loud tbh.

Lol, just lol, at people who don't understand how the internet works.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I don't think we will win the league, but we really should win the cup. we could finish fourth but be 3/4 points off the top and that would be an exceptional season. With the new money coming in this summer, with pretty much the whole team signed up to new long term deals this club is in incredible shape. Largely thanks to one man, who i don't think will renew now, but we really should have hope, and really believe for next season. I don't think any of the other clubs around us are in better shape.

[Marc Overmars]

You weren't thinking or doing it out loud tbh.

Lol, just lol, at people who don't understand how the internet works.

Metaphorically I was tbf.

[Niall_Quinn]

Right now we're the only club who can do the double. So let's go and do that.

[Özim]

I presume you're excusing Chelsea's failure to beat Villa though.

We definitely should have beaten Utd this year but bad results will alw`ys happen to every club in every season.

It was a really bad result, ij a sense though I guess players`can lack focus with games like that, thgy tend to be more focussed when they play the big teams as theygre bigger games.

Given our record against Man

[Özim]

Right now we're the only club who can do the double. Qo let's go and Do that.

It's not in our hands.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He`never said it was.

[Özim]

He said let's go and do that though, we can't since it's not in our hands, we can only hope we can.

You can only go and do something if you control$your own destiny.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If being deliberately obtuse rocks your world, keep on keeping on.

[Özim]

It's not being obtuse, just stating facts.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's not being obtuse, just s4ating facts.

No, you're being mbtuse. We are the only team that can win the do}ble. We won't. But we are the only team`that can.

[adzzzbatch]

I know where this is going, so I'll nust quit now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Forever? :praq:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think if we were to win at Stamford Bridge it'd be the 97/98 moment for this team - I reckon we would go on to win it after that.

[Power n Glory]

It's a tall order. We're depending on three teams to drop points. It's not impossible but we're not playing well.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We all play each other mostly so some definitely will!

[Letters]

I think if we were to win at Stamford Bridge it'd be the 97/98 moment for this team - I reckon we would go on to win it after that.

Agreed. But we won't so we won't

If we won the Double I'd be all :yippee: and :dance: and :patrice:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Agreed. But we won't so we won't

If we won the Double I'd be all :yippee: and :dance: and :patrice:

I possibly won't find out the Arsenal score until Saturday night so let me be blissful for now.

[Letters]

Pardon? :blink:

There's a football match, an Arsenal one, no less, which you won't be watching?


:faint:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That's right. Although it's on BT Sport so I'd only be watching it on a duff stream anyway but I'll be at a wedding, out in the sticks.

[Injury Time]

That's right. Although it's on BT Sport so I'd only be watching it on a duff stream anyway but I'll be at a wedding, out in the sticks.
I thought it was all sticks out up there? :shrug:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No strikes from a horse and cart tbf.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's right. Although it's on BT Sport so I'd only be watching it on a duff stream anyway but I'll be at a wedding, out in the sticks.

I'd text you updates but I don't really have an iPhone. I made that up.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's a tall order. We're depending on three teams to drop points. It's not impossible but we're not playing well.

True, so we're due to start playing well. It all rests on smashing these dirty chavs. If there's one game ever where we need to give it a go then this is the one.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'd text you updates but I don't really have an iPhone. I made that up.

I knew you were an Android man really.

[Niall_Quinn]

I knew you were an Android man really.

No, no mobile. Mobiles suck. I'm thinking of getting rid of email too. But I'll keep the interweb.

[GP]

Windows Phone :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

No, no, definitely not. I'd rather have cancer of the cock than a windows phone. Actually I do have a mobile, some ancient thing that beeps from time to time and has been on charge for about 8 years. I never leave home with it, I'd be lost with it, absolutely dispensable.

[Marc Overmars]

I think if we were to win at Stamford Bridge it'd be the 97/98 moment for this team - I reckon we would go on to win it after that.

That curly haired bloke going mad after Overmars' winner at OT. :bow:

Agreed, it would be a monumental win if we can somehow pull it off.

[Injury Time]

That curly haired bloke going mad after Overmars' winner at OT. :bow:

Agreed, it would be a monumental win if we can somehow pull IT off.

## well if it somehow helps the team :coney:

[Globalgunner]

If we won at S B I'd just faint. I'm sure I would. Send Ollie a 50 to buy a new tyre for his old banger too. They are all bald like he is too

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I've got a feeling, just got a feeling we'll do it at the Bridge.

Call me mad but it's ON!

[AFC Leveller]

I've got a feeling, just got a feeling we'll do it at the Bridge.

Call me mad but it's ON!

Same here mate. I just feel it could be one of those days.

[Power n Glory]

What have you lot been smoking? :blink: