When do we start to believe ?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

http://www.southleedslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/premier-league-trophy1.jpg

[Globalgunner]

End of May, not a minute before.

[Power n Glory]

As soon as the season kicked off. All of our rivals are unstable and an opportunity like this might not come back around for a very long time.

[Marc Overmars]

Tougher tests to come.

[PGFC]

Do Cardiff and I'll believe.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I haven't seen us against the Man Citys and Chelseas.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

As soon as the season kicked off. All of our rivals are unstable and an opportunity like this might not come back around for a very long time.

Well that's a lie. We were aggrieved at our summer spending and pissed off at the beginning of the season. No-one thought we would be where we are.

[Marc Overmars]

I definitely believe we can win it, if we're talking about quality.

That's just one of the requirements though, you've got to have the mental strength as well. Make no mistake about it there will come a time in the season when the wheels come off, so that's the biggest hurdle we'll need to overcome.

We've crumbled in the past when we've had a sniff of success but in fairness I do feel more confident with this team given they are a lot more mature than the squads we had from 08-11.

[JonasTC]

I'll start believing if we survive our annual february/march breakdown :D. But so far we have been the best team in the entire calender year, so i guess it shows we can do it for a year, so why not for a year and a half aswell? :)

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I'll start believing if we survive our annual february/march breakdown :D. But so far we have been the best team in the entire calender year, so i guess it shows we can do it for a year, so why not for a year and a half aswell? :)

I think a major difference to previous years is that we now have winners in our team.

Ozil has won La Liga.
Flamini Seria A.
Giroud Ligue 1.
Podolski Bundesliga.

You have 3-4 players with a winning mentality in the team and it filters through to others.

[Power n Glory]

Well that's a lie. We were aggrieved at our summer spending and pissed off at the beginning of the season. No-one thought we would be where we are.

Speak for yourself.

[milla]

I think a major difference to previous years is that we now have winners in our team.

Ozil has won La Liga.
Flamini Seria A.
Giroud Ligue 1.
Podolski Bundesliga.

You have 3-4 players with a winning mentality in the team and it filters through to others.

You forgot Rozza :sulk:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Speak for yourself.

Nah. I'm man enough to admit being negative at the start but changing my views. Posters like you aren't. Hence why the forums fucked :good:

[Power n Glory]

Nah. I'm man enough to admit being negative at the start but changing my views. Posters like you aren't. Hence why the forums fucked :good:

:lol: Give it a rest and stop assuming you’re speaking for everyone. Before the whole Suarez debacle, there was a real buzz around the club. I’ve always said we have a real opportunity to win the title this year because we’re the only stable club with the same group of players and manager. When Gazidis announced the money, expectations shot through the roof. When we took a gamble in the summer with transfers, I was pissed because I knew this opportunity wouldn’t come again and we had to capitalise now. It’s why I’m quite happy for Wenger to rest key players for domestic cup games. Something I’m usually 100% against.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Nah. I'm man enough to admit being negative at the start but changing my views. Posters like you aren't. Hence why the forums fucked :good:

:haha:

SWAYR. :bow:

GW's last great hope.

[Power n Glory]

I wouldn't bet on that. The guy want David Moyes managing Arsenal! No thanks.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't think I need to see us against the chavs or City. I think it's more than possible for us to win it and for Chelsea to have our number still. We have open games with City so I'm quite looking forward to playing them and we have the form centre half in the league who especially plays well against City imo.

I do however think so much is dependent on Giroud. In a funny way he is more important to us than Ozil, Cazorla or Ramsey because we simply do not have the quality to replace him. We've already had to plod on without Cazorla, Walcott, Podolski, Arteta, Gibbs and Wilshere for periods at a time and we've dealt with it admirably. As long as Giroud is never out for too long we will be in with a good chance imo.

A wise man/woman/creature once said (it may have been a reference in book of Sun tzu) don't just seek to defeat your enemy....destroy him. That is why in January we should equip ourselves in such a away that absolutely capitalises on our vantage point.

In short, I now believe, but I cannot know what will happen or not to Giroud.

[Alpha]

I started to believe but we need consistency till the end . People including the media especially the pundits are under illusion of thinking that to win the league you must beat the so- called big teams . I still remember once when we beat Man U and they got beaten by Chelsea and drew with Man City and ended up with the trophy at the end of the season . We also had a good run against the top four but we reverted to our usual fourth spot .

To win the league you need to beat more team than anyone no matter who you play . You need to lose less game than anyone and also probably draw less game than everyone . Beating Chelsea or Man U will not make you get more than 3 points .
It is surprising that a game against Spurs which was labelled as big test for Arsenal is no more regarded as such simple because Arsenal have had a good result against them .
We are in a good run at the moment . We have to continue and never let ourselves distracted by what others think or are saying .
It may be a blessing in disguise if other teams fall into the trap of thinking they absolutely need to beat the big teams to win something . So Man U getting beaten by West Bromw or drawing with Cardiff is not a problem as long as they can beat a top four team . I find it a big illusion .

[Fist of Lehmann]

I definitely believe we can win it, if we're talking about quality.

That's just one of the requirements though, you've got to have the mental strength as well. Make no mistake about it there will come a time in the season when the wheels come off, so that's the biggest hurdle we'll need to overcome.

We've crumbled in the past when we've had a sniff of success but in fairness I do feel more confident with this team given they are a lot more mature than the squads we had from 08-11.

The way we've taken two key losses in our stride (Manure and Dortmund) suggests we are stronger mentally than in previous years. Promising signs we have eliminated our streakiness, unless it's winning streakiness.

The kind of nervousness that kicks in when you get closer to the prize and are leading the pack is another issue, not one we've really had recently. We know we can chase, we've been doing that plenty, but can we lead from the front? That brings it's own pressures.

My main concern isn't mental though, it's in certain areas where if we lost our starter, our backup would cost us points. That is, Giroud, Sagan and Mertesacker, in order of impact. I think the risks to the two defenders can be largely mitigated with some clever transfer business.

But with Giroud - it's going to be very difficult to get someone in January who would be of the required quality and would slot seamlessly in if Bif were unavailable. Even a footballer as good as Ozil still needs time to adapt. Someone already playing in the Prem would have the best chance so the options are limited.

[Master Splinter]

I believe, yes.

[GP]

Ibuleve

[Ollie the Optimist]

one moment that said to me this team could be special was beating Bayern back in march. we were down and out of that tie, and the race for fourth, and both cups, yet we went to the best team in europe, at their home ground and beat them. I don't buy this argument either that they had already won the tie so didn't care, that was pretty much the only game they lost all year.

that gave the team the belief they needed that they were good enough to beat the big boys but needed that run of form, and thats what happened. 7 points behind spurs, but they fought back and we beat spurs to 4th (spurs :haha: ) and i remember thinking at that time, that next season, we would be champions. we just looked like something had clicked, the defence refused to concede, we ground out some tough wins in that time and although it wasn't pretty, the basics looked to be there. a solid defence, a good midfield and Giroud seemed to be coming good.

Then the summer happened, we watched as other clubs spent money, looked to have good squads and we added a postman. we got to villa and the hope that some of us had of a title challenge after newcastle, had all but gone. it was the same team minus the deadwood but we hadn't grabbed our chance, it looked like the other clubs had made their move and we would be fighting for fourth again, and then we lost to villa. what a horrific moment that was, despair everywhere and we all felt that was it. another season of fighting for fourth except unlike previous years, we didn't think we would make it.

Then the champions league qualifiers came, and we won. a tough game in turkey, yet we comfortably won. Ramsey suddenly turned into messi out of nowhere but this is what we failed to see but AW didn't. We only see what happens on the pitch during the games, and while Ramsey worked hard, it just looked like he wouldn't make it, but AW saw him everyday on that training pitch and believed in him by giving him a five year deal, knowing that if he could do what he did in training during the games, we would have some player. he was right, we were wrong. Other players came on too, Gibbs, Szcesney, Giroud for example, players we had written off but came back stronger, belief among the players started to come back. We had injury crisis after injury crisis, no wingers, a right back having to play centre back but yet we still kept on winning.

The moment that i think belief really came back to the fans and the players was beating spurs. all summer we had to listen to how they were spending so much and therefore they were better then us. all this mind the gap shit, pundits writing us off and calling spurs potential champions, and they came to play us. the crowd were fully behind the players on that day, (it was the best atmosphere at the emirates ever IMO) but it wasn't the result that caused the belief to come back to us as fans and players, it was the attitude of the players. they simply refused to lose, the crowd never stopped singing, we were united together for the first time in a long time as a club who simply refused to lose to spurs. thats when IMO as a club we started to believe but after the game, we signed Mesut Ozil. That signing said to the rest of the league, we're back. we want this title, we've just spent the money too. after beating spurs, there are not many things that can make Arsenal fans happier, that was one though. the rest of the league suddenly took notice again, and were slightly fearful. That was the moment, that we all started to believe again.


since then, we've had some tough games, swansea, united, liverpool etc and we've only lost twice this season in the league. Ok we went out the carling cup, but if we win the league i couldn't give a shit about that. we lost, we lost to dortmund but we came back. in 2013 we've beaten munich and dortmund away. no other english club has done that in one year before. those two clubs put 11 goals past madrid and barcalona in the champions league yet we beat them at their home grounds. not bad eh? in 2013, we have been the best side. we've won the most points. if you took the last 38 games, we would be champions by 5 points. suddenly this side looks like it could win the title. everyone says we haven't been tested yet, yet we just seem to keep wining. we will be top of the league at the start of decemeber. its time to believe. this team can be special. we've been told all season that we would fail when we play a top side, we've beaten dortmund, napoli, spurs, liverpool and only lost to united. we've been told we won't cope with injuries yet we've missed arteta, vermalen, BFG, Theo, Podolski, OX, Gnarby, Flamini for periods this season and still we keep wining. we've asked the club to spend on world class players, they did. we asked the players to fight and show pride while wearing the shirt, they've fought every minute of every game since villa to win. they've done what we have asked, lets get behind them now, believe in them until may because that title, could be our first trophy in 9 years and it would be Arsene's greatest achievement and its looking more and more likely every game.

[Syn]

FFS.

Nah, good post.

But FFS.

I'm going to answer this in Ramzee mode. We're playing ever so well at the moment. In the last couple of seasons we haven't started well but we know our form from March onwards has been second to none. We've had some tough games but the boys have pulled through ever so well. We're just feeling confident right now. We were always getting into the right positions but lacked composure. But this season we're feeling a lot more confident. We're really enjoying our football right now and we have Ramsey who is doing ever so well. The important thing now though is that we continue enjoying our football and playing with confidence because we have some tough games coming up but if we play ever so well we may finish the season second to none.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Ollie, credit where it is due - it was pretty dark when even you lost patience with the Club.

[Ollie the Optimist]

the summer was horrific but with hindsight, id take that summer again if it meant signing a Mesut Ozil with half an hour left. Flamini too. at the time it was dire, but looking back, its still a good summer IMO but yes, i lost faith completely but like the fickle bastard I am, when we won a few games, all was well again :lol:

[WMUG]

CK, you know what to do.

[Master Splinter]

FFS.

Nah, good post.

But FFS.

I'm going to answer this in Ramzee mode. We're playing ever so well at the moment. In the last couple of seasons we haven't started well but we know our form from March onwards has been second to none. We've had some tough games but the boys have pulled through ever so well. We're just feeling confident right now. We were always getting into the right positions but lacked composure. But this season we're feeling a lot more confident. We're really enjoying our football right now and we have Ramsey who is doing ever so well. The important thing now though is that we continue enjoying our football and playing with confidence because we have some tough games coming up but if we play ever so well we may finish the season second to none.

:haha:

I must say, you have given an exceptional Ramsey impression.

Are you a better Ramsey than I am a Wenget?

We must be humble.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

one moment that said to me this team could be special was beating Bayern back in march. we were down and out of that tie, and the race for fourth, and both cups, yet we went to the best team in europe, at their home ground and beat them. I don't buy this argument either that they had already won the tie so didn't care, that was pretty much the only game they lost all year.

that gave the team the belief they needed that they were good enough to beat the big boys but needed that run of form, and thats what happened. 7 points behind spurs, but they fought back and we beat spurs to 4th (spurs :haha: ) and i remember thinking at that time, that next season, we would be champions. we just looked like something had clicked, the defence refused to concede, we ground out some tough wins in that time and although it wasn't pretty, the basics looked to be there. a solid defence, a good midfield and Giroud seemed to be coming good.

Then the summer happened, we watched as other clubs spent money, looked to have good squads and we added a postman. we got to villa and the hope that some of us had of a title challenge after newcastle, had all but gone. it was the same team minus the deadwood but we hadn't grabbed our chance, it looked like the other clubs had made their move and we would be fighting for fourth again, and then we lost to villa. what a horrific moment that was, despair everywhere and we all felt that was it. another season of fighting for fourth except unlike previous years, we didn't think we would make it.

Then the champions league qualifiers came, and we won. a tough game in turkey, yet we comfortably won. Ramsey suddenly turned into messi out of nowhere but this is what we failed to see but AW didn't. We only see what happens on the pitch during the games, and while Ramsey worked hard, it just looked like he wouldn't make it, but AW saw him everyday on that training pitch and believed in him by giving him a five year deal, knowing that if he could do what he did in training during the games, we would have some player. he was right, we were wrong. Other players came on too, Gibbs, Szcesney, Giroud for example, players we had written off but came back stronger, belief among the players started to come back. We had injury crisis after injury crisis, no wingers, a right back having to play centre back but yet we still kept on winning.

The moment that i think belief really came back to the fans and the players was beating spurs. all summer we had to listen to how they were spending so much and therefore they were better then us. all this mind the gap shit, pundits writing us off and calling spurs potential champions, and they came to play us. the crowd were fully behind the players on that day, (it was the best atmosphere at the emirates ever IMO) but it wasn't the result that caused the belief to come back to us as fans and players, it was the attitude of the players. they simply refused to lose, the crowd never stopped singing, we were united together for the first time in a long time as a club who simply refused to lose to spurs. thats when IMO as a club we started to believe but after the game, we signed Mesut Ozil. That signing said to the rest of the league, we're back. we want this title, we've just spent the money too. after beating spurs, there are not many things that can make Arsenal fans happier, that was one though. the rest of the league suddenly took notice again, and were slightly fearful. That was the moment, that we all started to believe again.


since then, we've had some tough games, swansea, united, liverpool etc and we've only lost twice this season in the league. Ok we went out the carling cup, but if we win the league i couldn't give a shit about that. we lost, we lost to dortmund but we came back. in 2013 we've beaten munich and dortmund away. no other english club has done that in one year before. those two clubs put 11 goals past madrid and barcalona in the champions league yet we beat them at their home grounds. not bad eh? in 2013, we have been the best side. we've won the most points. if you took the last 38 games, we would be champions by 5 points. suddenly this side looks like it could win the title. everyone says we haven't been tested yet, yet we just seem to keep wining. we will be top of the league at the start of decemeber. its time to believe. this team can be special. we've been told all season that we would fail when we play a top side, we've beaten dortmund, napoli, spurs, liverpool and only lost to united. we've been told we won't cope with injuries yet we've missed arteta, vermalen, BFG, Theo, Podolski, OX, Gnarby, Flamini for periods this season and still we keep wining. we've asked the club to spend on world class players, they did. we asked the players to fight and show pride while wearing the shirt, they've fought every minute of every game since villa to win. they've done what we have asked, lets get behind them now, believe in them until may because that title, could be our first trophy in 9 years and it would be Arsene's greatest achievement and its looking more and more likely every game.

GW's best poster :bow:

Cripps :haha:

[Munchies]

one moment that said to me this team could be special was beating Bayern back in march. we were down and out of that tie, and the race for fourth, and both cups, yet we went to the best team in europe, at their home ground and beat them. I don't buy this argument either that they had already won the tie so didn't care, that was pretty much the only game they lost all year.

..

http://replygif.net/i/173.gif

Great read that. Agree with everything in it.

[Munchies]

the summer was horrific but with hindsight, id take that summer again if it meant signing a Mesut Ozil with half an hour left. Flamini too. at the time it was dire, but looking back, its still a good summer IMO but yes, i lost faith completely but like the fickle bastard I am, when we won a few games, all was well again :lol:

If you back to the summer transfer thread over the summer, you'd see that I (and a few others) wanted Wenger to meet Fellaini's release clause and pay him more than what he got at Everton. Thank fuck we dodged that bullet now :haha:. Its just how we were all feeling in the thought that we just wanted to see some investment into the squad.

[GP]

one moment that said to me this team could be special was beating Bayern back in march. we were down and out of that tie, and the race for fourth, and both cups, yet we went to the best team in europe, at their home ground and beat them. I don't buy this argument either that they had already won the tie so didn't care, that was pretty much the only game they lost all year.

that gave the team the belief they needed that they were good enough to beat the big boys but needed that run of form, and thats what happened. 7 points behind spurs, but they fought back and we beat spurs to 4th (spurs :haha: ) and i remember thinking at that time, that next season, we would be champions. we just looked like something had clicked, the defence refused to concede, we ground out some tough wins in that time and although it wasn't pretty, the basics looked to be there. a solid defence, a good midfield and Giroud seemed to be coming good.

Then the summer happened, we watched as other clubs spent money, looked to have good squads and we added a postman. we got to villa and the hope that some of us had of a title challenge after newcastle, had all but gone. it was the same team minus the deadwood but we hadn't grabbed our chance, it looked like the other clubs had made their move and we would be fighting for fourth again, and then we lost to villa. what a horrific moment that was, despair everywhere and we all felt that was it. another season of fighting for fourth except unlike previous years, we didn't think we would make it.

Then the champions league qualifiers came, and we won. a tough game in turkey, yet we comfortably won. Ramsey suddenly turned into messi out of nowhere but this is what we failed to see but AW didn't. We only see what happens on the pitch during the games, and while Ramsey worked hard, it just looked like he wouldn't make it, but AW saw him everyday on that training pitch and believed in him by giving him a five year deal, knowing that if he could do what he did in training during the games, we would have some player. he was right, we were wrong. Other players came on too, Gibbs, Szcesney, Giroud for example, players we had written off but came back stronger, belief among the players started to come back. We had injury crisis after injury crisis, no wingers, a right back having to play centre back but yet we still kept on winning.

The moment that i think belief really came back to the fans and the players was beating spurs. all summer we had to listen to how they were spending so much and therefore they were better then us. all this mind the gap shit, pundits writing us off and calling spurs potential champions, and they came to play us. the crowd were fully behind the players on that day, (it was the best atmosphere at the emirates ever IMO) but it wasn't the result that caused the belief to come back to us as fans and players, it was the attitude of the players. they simply refused to lose, the crowd never stopped singing, we were united together for the first time in a long time as a club who simply refused to lose to spurs. thats when IMO as a club we started to believe but after the game, we signed Mesut Ozil. That signing said to the rest of the league, we're back. we want this title, we've just spent the money too. after beating spurs, there are not many things that can make Arsenal fans happier, that was one though. the rest of the league suddenly took notice again, and were slightly fearful. That was the moment, that we all started to believe again.


since then, we've had some tough games, swansea, united, liverpool etc and we've only lost twice this season in the league. Ok we went out the carling cup, but if we win the league i couldn't give a shit about that. we lost, we lost to dortmund but we came back. in 2013 we've beaten munich and dortmund away. no other english club has done that in one year before. those two clubs put 11 goals past madrid and barcalona in the champions league yet we beat them at their home grounds. not bad eh? in 2013, we have been the best side. we've won the most points. if you took the last 38 games, we would be champions by 5 points. suddenly this side looks like it could win the title. everyone says we haven't been tested yet, yet we just seem to keep wining. we will be top of the league at the start of decemeber. its time to believe. this team can be special. we've been told all season that we would fail when we play a top side, we've beaten dortmund, napoli, spurs, liverpool and only lost to united. we've been told we won't cope with injuries yet we've missed arteta, vermalen, BFG, Theo, Podolski, OX, Gnarby, Flamini for periods this season and still we keep wining. we've asked the club to spend on world class players, they did. we asked the players to fight and show pride while wearing the shirt, they've fought every minute of every game since villa to win. they've done what we have asked, lets get behind them now, believe in them until may because that title, could be our first trophy in 9 years and it would be Arsene's greatest achievement and its looking more and more likely every game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7RgN9ijwE4

[Penguin]

In a 'normal' season I'd say the league was just a step too far. But this is anything but an ordinary season with most of our rivals changing managers and struggling to settle in. Anything can happen this season and it would be stupid to say we can't win it. It's our best chance since 07/08 and this squad is better equipped with more maturity, steel and experience.

I would still have us down as third favourites behind City and Chelsea but with a bit of luck with injuries and a shrewd signing or two in January I don't see why we couldn't.

[Power n Glory]

I agree. This isn't a normal season and I'd write us off otherwise. There has been a complete turn around in attitude and belief at the club and in the squad. They sense the opportunity at hand and are playing accordingly. It's not as if we're playing our most beautiful football or we're at our free flowing best, I still feel we have a few more gears to go through. It's just the change in attitude that's turned things around. Our rivals have been inconsistent but we haven't. It's like the belief is there for once. The instability at other clubs has shaken things up. Top that off with the Ozil signing and the club saying we have money to spend....it's given the players confidence.

[Globalgunner]

Its obvious who will win the league.......Tottenham, cos Michael Dawson says so.

We have a chance but to do so we will need to play well in the derbies against City Chelsea and United. I know people think its simply a game of numbers and the most points will win it regardless of whom you get them against, but mentally it is so soul destroying...to the players even, to keep losing against the other main contenders, it is easy to pick yourself up after a fluke loss against Hull or Villa, but to continually get brushed aside by your so called equals means so much more. More over we need more goals from all over the park. Gibbs Sagna, even Chezzer.:jumpnana: Yoonited get so many points from that turd Evra, when it counts, but we dismiss it as not being essential to us. Every player needs to know how to score. Especially those who do it on the pitch....If you get my meaning
##

[IBK]

The way we've taken two key losses in our stride (Manure and Dortmund) suggests we are stronger mentally than in previous years. Promising signs we have eliminated our streakiness, unless it's winning streakiness.

The kind of nervousness that kicks in when you get closer to the prize and are leading the pack is another issue, not one we've really had recently. We know we can chase, we've been doing that plenty, but can we lead from the front? That brings it's own pressures.

My main concern isn't mental though, it's in certain areas where if we lost our starter, our backup would cost us points. That is, Giroud, Sagan and Mertesacker, in order of impact. I think the risks to the two defenders can be largely mitigated with some clever transfer business.

But with Giroud - it's going to be very difficult to get someone in January who would be of the required quality and would slot seamlessly in if Bif were unavailable. Even a footballer as good as Ozil still needs time to adapt. Someone already playing in the Prem would have the best chance so the options are limited.

This. Even now I'd be surprised if any Gooner in their heart of hearts is confident that we'll win the league - as opposed to being a challenger this season.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I agree. This isn't a normal season and I'd write us off otherwise.

A bit of context perhaps?

Season : Leader After 12 games : Final Position
13-14 : Arsenal 28pts : ???
12-13 : City 28pts : 2nd 78pts
11-12 : City 34pts : 1st 89pts
10-11 : Chelsea 28pts : 2nd 71pts
09-10 : Chelsea 30pts : 1st 86pts
08-09 : Chelsea 29pts : 3rd 83pts
07-08 : Arsenal 30pts : 3rd 83pts

[Power n Glory]

Its obvious who will win the league.......Tottenham, cos Michael Dawson says so.

We have a chance but to do so we will need to play well in the derbies against City Chelsea and United. I know people think its simply a game of numbers and the most points will win it regardless of whom you get them against, but mentally it is so soul destroying...to the players even, to keep losing against the other main contenders, it is easy to pick yourself up after a fluke loss against Hull or Villa, but to continually get brushed aside by your so called equals means so much more. More over we need more goals from all over the park. Gibbs Sagna, even Chezzer.:jumpnana: Yoonited get so many points from that turd Evra, when it counts, but we dismiss it as not being essential to us. Every player needs to know how to score. Especially those who do it on the pitch....If you get my meaning
##


But it’s not as if we’ve never beaten Chelsea and City in recent years. We’ve had seasons where we’ve beaten massive teams including Barca and AC Milan….our season usually falls apart when we lose to lower league teams. The teams that sit deep, soak up the pressure and then hit us on the counter or with a set piece. I think that messed the team up more than anything else psychologically. We had no answer for it and throws serious doubt upon our philosophy.

[Power n Glory]

A bit of context perhaps?

Season : Leader After 12 games : Final Position
13-14 : Arsenal 28pts : ???
12-13 : City 28pts : 2nd 78pts
11-12 : City 34pts : 1st 89pts
10-11 : Chelsea 28pts : 2nd 71pts
09-10 : Chelsea 30pts : 1st 86pts
08-09 : Chelsea 29pts : 3rd 83pts
07-08 : Arsenal 30pts : 3rd 83pts

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. When I say this isn’t a normal season, I mean in regards to the managerial changes we’ve seen at Chelsea, City and Man Utd.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. When I say this isn’t a normal season, I mean in regards to the managerial changes we’ve seen at Chelsea, City and Man Utd.

I'm getting at a few things really.

Those include but are not limited to:
a) the fact that irrespective of other other teams, our form to date is consistent with 12 game league leaders in previous years, albeit at the lower end of the scale
b) that if this isn't a normal season, how many points we are likely to need
c) where 12 game leaders tend to end up

[Özim]

I don't believe yet, yes we're top and 4 points clear but we've got a lot of hard fixtures to come and for me how we do against City and Chelsea will be very important.

I think as we get into the 2nd half of the season we'll tire as well with our lack of depth (due to the usual suspects being injured), I think City and Chelsea will have too much for us and may well beat us in our fixtures against them (might get a draw at home against City).

[Dein-machine]

Defensively there are no teams stronger, inc City with Kompany back. Our midfield is superb, Ozil's presence ( hopefully soon to show his true talents ) & Ramsey's amazing form are the big difference from previous year. Its what we do in Jan that is important.
A quality striker that can either compliment Giroud or replace him along with a younger DM is all that it could take to do it. I'll beleive if we're in the hunt come Jan & Wumger blows the dust of the cheque book again.

[Power n Glory]

I'm getting at a few things really.

Those include but are not limited to:
a) the fact that irrespective of other other teams, our form to date is consistent with 12 game league leaders in previous years, albeit at the lower end of the scale
b) that if this isn't a normal season, how many points we are likely to need
c) where 12 game leaders tend to end up

We’re playing like league leaders but I believe we’re playing this way because we sense the opportunity. It’s really not the norm for three of your biggest rivals to change managers. If Fergie was still in charge at Man Utd with Mancini still at City, I wouldn’t fancy our chances.

[Letters]

I don't believe yet, yes we're top and 4 points clear but we've got a lot of hard fixtures to come and for me how we do against City and Chelsea will be very important.

I think as we get into the 2nd half of the season we'll tire as well with our lack of depth (due to the usual suspects being injured), I think City and Chelsea will have too much for us and may well beat us in our fixtures against them (might get a draw at home against City).

I pretty much agree with this, but it has to be recognised that we've come on leaps and bounds since last season.
After last year when we were struggling to stay in the top 4 all season to even be having discussions about the title is a massive step forwards. The criteria for this being a successful season shouldn't be whether we win the title or not.
We're going in the right direction. That's enough, for now.

[Fist of Lehmann]

We’re playing like league leaders but I believe we’re playing this way because we sense the opportunity.

Hmmm.

I am not sure I understand how this works. Are you suggesting that we are playing better because we believe our rivals are worse?

[Power n Glory]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/8811670/

[Syn]

We've been playing this way for a while. There's no sudden change in the 12 games this season compared to the last 20 odd from last season. The young players are now getting to the age where they perform more consistently. Looking at this season, Gibbs, Szczesny and Ramsey have been terrific; much more mature performances and it's no coincidence. We've also got some experienced squad players like Flamini and Rosicky who fit like a glove whenever we need some extra energy. It helps that we haven't sold our best but actually bought a Rolls Royce player too.

[Fist of Lehmann]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/8811670/

If anything, he is non-committal.


"You don't know how the season will work out. A few of the other teams all have new managers, so it's difficult to say.

"But they will be strong and equally, Arsenal will be strong.

That and that he hopes Arsenal will win the league. I don't really see what you're seeing PnG.

[Power n Glory]

If anything, he is non-committal.



That and that he hopes Arsenal will win the league. I don't really see what you're seeing PnG.

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-stability-could-be-an-advantage

That's a better one. Saw a couple of quotes like this early in the season. It's not a sure thing but the players and manager know that they're in a really good position. It's the perfect storm and it's helped our confidence. It's not the only factor but it helps. It's psychological like the announcement of our spending power and the signing of Ozil. It's had a positive effect on the club and I'm guessing they sense this is a massive opportunity. How could they not? It's like Murray not taking advantage at Wimbeledon when two of his biggest rivals are out if the competition and your in serious form.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I don't believe yet, yes we're top and 4 points clear but we've got a lot of hard fixtures to come and for me how we do against City and Chelsea will be very important.

I think as we get into the 2nd half of the season we'll tire as well with our lack of depth (due to the usual suspects being injured), I think City and Chelsea will have too much for us and may well beat us in our fixtures against them (might get a draw at home against City).


the big four games won't decide who wins the title this year. it will be the team that is the most consistent. take a look at the season so far, how many games have city/united/chelsea/spurs lost that they really should win? city have put 10 goals past united and spurs at home, yet have lost to cardiff, sunderland and villa away yet we so far have been winning games the other big clubs haven't been.

the games against city and chelsea are very important of course, 4 points would be a dream. 3 would still be great but why are those two games now the test? how many tests do we have to have before we believe? we've beaten spurs, liverpool, dortmund away (first english side to do that) yet still we "haven't been tested" and your claim about failing when we have an injury crisis. we've already had one this season, and we're top. it doesn't matter if you have a huge squad or a small one, its about team spirit, hunger and desire. we have a small squad, we then had an injury crisis but the players never gave up and we kept winning. chelsea, city both have huge squads, so do spurs yet when the going gets tough, they bottle it so far this season.

[Penguin]

Hmmm.

I am not sure I understand how this works. Are you suggesting that we are playing better because we believe our rivals are worse?

It's all about belief. If there was a standout team sweeping everyone away, as there has been in previous seasons, then of course it can be demoralising and and it can affect your performances over a season. I know it's still early days but compare that to this season where, so far at least, there is no single outstanding team. Everyone's dropping points.

It's as big an opportunity as we're likely to get and I think Wenger and the players sense that too.

[selassie]

I'll say one thing, mentally I believe in this team more than any other recent Arsenal side, the 07/08 side were very good but they lost their heads when the going got tough, bottlers.

This team appears to have bottle, experience obviously helps and this team has plenty of it.

If we are in and around the top 3 in January then I truly believe this team will challenge for the title. I think we are definitely good enough to challenge right to the bitter end, but we do need a few squad matters addressing to be totally stable.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

That and that he hopes Arsenal will win the league. I don't really see what you're seeing PnG.

I wouldn't listen to him. The guy wanted Michael Laudrup managing Arsenal! No thanks.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I wouldn't listen to him. The guy wanted Michael Laudrup managing Arsenal! No thanks.

Podolski or PnG?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the only person who believes we can't win the title is Alan Hansen we are four points clear at the top of the league yes it's November but of course we can win the league, but there is a big league between can and will.
For me I don't believe we will win the league (this is not to say i definitley think we won't) but what i mean is i am not convinced that we will, if we are top after xmas and we buy a reputable striker in January than i would believe that we would go on and win the title.
If we give performances this season that are similar to the ones against Liverpool and Dortmund in Germany than i would be confident, performances like against Aston Villa and United we won't.

[fakeyank]

We really need to NOT lose to chelsea this december. A win against those scums will do our confidence a world of good! We come out of december relatively unscathed, I will surely start believing (and also buy my ticket to watch us play next year) :run:

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

[milla]

We really need to NOT lose to chelsea this december. A win against those scums will do our confidence a world of good! We come out of december relatively unscathed, I will surely start believing (and also buy my ticket to watch us play next year) :run:

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

Fu*k off!!!

[Letters]

Fu*k off!!!

:gp:

If you come over again, FY, go to a game we lose and it blows our title chances then I'll cut you.


Agree with FY though, if we can come through the Chelsea and City games relatively unscathed then I might just start to believe.

[Ollie the Optimist]

FY still owes all of us who went to the villa game our money back for our tickets.


;)

[LDG]

I think we should all agree to NOT facilitate the purchase of any ticket for FY to see a game ever again, tbf.

In fact, someone needs to write to the club and have him banned.

[Letters]

Agreed.
Gary, tell him to fuck the fuck off if he asks again kthxpls.

[GP]

FY should be killed.

[Letters]

Racist <_<

[Ollie the Optimist]

anybody who gave a ticket to FY should probably be banned also. we all know his record so no excuses to giving him a ticket

[Bumble]

In December, we play 4 of the top 6. Still ahead by more than 3 points. We will win it.

[Marc Overmars]

If we are still top come January then I may even have a cheeky punt on us winning it.

There's 21 points to play for this month so things will begin to shape up.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Agreed.
Gary, tell him to fuck the fuck off if he asks again kthxpls.

We lost when I got you a ticket. :whistle:

[PGFC]

When we get our Christmas names <_<

[GP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaWsv59ctKY

[Letters]

We lost when I got you a ticket. :whistle:
Well...just...stop getting tickets for people then. :sulk:

[selassie]

I gotta say, Man City are starting to really worry me, they are our biggest threat IMHO. Over the next month I think it's absolutely essential that we beat the likes of Everton and Chelsea at home, Chelsea at home is very hard to call, I don't actually rate Chelsea that high but Maureen has Wenger's number.

I am confident we can see off Hull at home and West Ham away, Newcastle away will be very very tough, though I think we can nick a point there at worse. the game that worries me is City away, they have the potential to thrash anybody in the league including us IMHO, I would take a point right now.

[fakeyank]

FY still owes all of us who went to the villa game our money back for our tickets.


;)

Aye... I was at the bar with Adzz after the game to buy y'all a drink (or more) but no one showed up! :(

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Wasn't Cripps there? I heard he likes a drink.

[A Gunner]

So who wants tickets? Because I'm a Silver member but not in UK, who's a red member and would like me to add them to my group? Obviously, you would need to transfer money back in my UK account!

[Ollie the Optimist]

Arsenal away wins this season - 5. scoring 13 conceding 3

Liverpool, city, chelsea away wins COMBINED - 5


but apparently stats like this don't count in favour of Arsenal because its universally known that the league is decided on whoever beats chelsea and city and as we haven't done that. no one can consider us title contenders.

seriously, when you see stats like that, it really does enforce the belief that we are ready and by far the best team right now. yes it could all unravel like previous years but right now it looks like it won't. i know everyone says we have a small squad and we won't cope with injuries and city/chelsea will be much better because of the size of their squads but look at those results. their fringe players don't give a shit, they don't play well away from home, they have a big squad but whats the point if they just don't perform? we might have a small squad who are one injury crisis away from imploding, however, we've had a huge injury crisis already this season and guess what. we are top. by four points.

[Xhaka Can’t]

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00810/toon10_350x475_810698a.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJe1iUuAW4M

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I gotta say, Man City are starting to really worry me, they are our biggest threat IMHO. Over the next month I think it's absolutely essential that we beat the likes of Everton and Chelsea at home, Chelsea at home is very hard to call, I don't actually rate Chelsea that high but Maureen has Wenger's number.

I am confident we can see off Hull at home and West Ham away, Newcastle away will be very very tough, though I think we can nick a point there at worse. the game that worries me is City away, they have the potential to thrash anybody in the league including us IMHO, I would take a point right now.

Not concerned about Man City unless they actually start winning away games. Until that happens and of course it might this week, I don't really think they can properly be counted.

Their home wins will of course keep them fairly competitive though.

[fakeyank]

Arsenal away wins this season - 5. scoring 13 conceding 3

Liverpool, city, chelsea away wins COMBINED - 5


but apparently stats like this don't count in favour of Arsenal because its universally known that the league is decided on whoever beats chelsea and city and as we haven't done that. no one can consider us title contenders.

seriously, when you see stats like that, it really does enforce the belief that we are ready and by far the best team right now. yes it could all unravel like previous years but right now it looks like it won't. i know everyone says we have a small squad and we won't cope with injuries and city/chelsea will be much better because of the size of their squads but look at those results. their fringe players don't give a shit, they don't play well away from home, they have a big squad but whats the point if they just don't perform? we might have a small squad who are one injury crisis away from imploding, however, we've had a huge injury crisis already this season and guess what. we are top. by four points.

Ollie, come on mate.. you know that most on here are cautiously optimistic. We were 49 games unbeaten in the league, lost one and completely flopped after.. we had one loss up until February in 08, had dudu's leg break and we flopped again. We have had false dawns many times and while the stats look impressive this year, I really think avoiding defeat against the c*nts from Chelsea will be a major high, just because they are managed by one of the biggest pricks of all times. City on the other hand will be extremely tough.. losses in both or even one of them will mean our lead is cut to 1 point or we might even be in 2-3rd place.
Let's go into New years with the same level of confidence and hopefully a new striker to boost morale (like Ozil) and trust me, everyone will actually start believing! Right now, let's just bite our lips, cross our fingers and keep it on the low!

[IBK]

We are 6 points ahead of Citeh which gives us important breathing space over them. Personally, given their home form I can see us losing at their gaff - but if we can maintain consistency, that shouldn't be our main concern.

However, 3 things need to happen for me to truly believe.

1. We need to show that we can function without Giroud playing. Maybe Wednesday will be the opportunity to see this. Giroud has become so important for us, both in holding the ball up in the opposition's third, and making space for others by drawing the opposition's defenders. I have doubts about whether we will be as effective with, say, Walcott or Podolski as our front man. If we can adapt and be effective with Giroud not on the pitch, that will give me a lot of faith.

2. Chelsea. I think it is absolutely essential that we win on 23 December. They cruised to victory against us in the Carling Cup. For me - it is more important as far as our credentials are concerned to reverse this result at home than to win at the Etihad because it will show that we can win against the best tactical manager in the league. Lose, and it may expose us.

3. We need to win with Vermaelen, and even Jenkinson in the back 4. Left back we can be confident with Monreal, the other defensive positions are more questionable. One of Kossy; Merts or Sagne will be injured/suspended at some stage. Can we avoid mistakes when this happens?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most Gooners I know still aren't convinced that we will last the pace - although every game that goes by these days is providing encouragement.

Personally, as long as we don't implode over the next couple of months I will be delighted with the real progress our team has made whether or not we prevail ultimately. Its telling that the likes of Sp*rs and Liverpool have now revealed their weaknesses, while we have surprised everyone with our consistency so far.

[Boss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4pUs4Pu1cQ

:)

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Trouble is, we may spend soo long on top spot, that if we suddenly finish 2-4th or God forbid even lower it will be the bitterest pill to swallow ever.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We're not going to be finishing fifth, I think that's fairly assured! Let's say we do end falling down to fourth, I'd rather have that than stay fourth for the whole season with not even the prospect of winning the league. Ordinarily a team has one good run at the title before following it through the next season - so long as we don't lose our best players in the summer, then there would be clear signs of progression.

I really don't think we will fall away though, it seems to me that we just have too much quality in our play for that to be the case this season. Plus we're so much better defensively that what has befallen us in previous seasons, might not have much relevance.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

We're not going to be finishing fifth, I think that's fairly assured! Let's say we do end falling down to fourth, I'd rather have that than stay fourth for the whole season with not even the prospect of winning the league. Ordinarily a team has one good run at the title before following it through the next season - so long as we don't lose our best players in the summer, then there would be clear signs of progression.

I really don't think we will fall away though, it seems to me that we just have too much quality in our play for that to be the case this season. Plus we're so much better defensively that what has befallen us in previous seasons, might not have much relevance.

I don't actually think we will finish 5th, I was just covering bases, lol. That would be an extraordinary capitulation.....even for us.

As you are intimating and as letters has alluded to a few times, even if we don't win the thing this season, the real encouraging thing is the progress we've made which is undeniable. We can't ask for much more.

[A Gunner]

We are 6 points ahead of Citeh which gives us important breathing space over them. Personally, given their home form I can see us losing at their gaff - but if we can maintain consistency, that shouldn't be our main concern.

However, 3 things need to happen for me to truly believe.

1. We need to show that we can function without Giroud playing. Maybe Wednesday will be the opportunity to see this. Giroud has become so important for us, both in holding the ball up in the opposition's third, and making space for others by drawing the opposition's defenders. I have doubts about whether we will be as effective with, say, Walcott or Podolski as our front man. If we can adapt and be effective with Giroud not on the pitch, that will give me a lot of faith.

2. Chelsea. I think it is absolutely essential that we win on 23 December. They cruised to victory against us in the Carling Cup. For me - it is more important as far as our credentials are concerned to reverse this result at home than to win at the Etihad because it will show that we can win against the best tactical manager in the league. Lose, and it may expose us.

3. We need to win with Vermaelen, and even Jenkinson in the back 4. Left back we can be confident with Monreal, the other defensive positions are more questionable. One of Kossy; Merts or Sagne will be injured/suspended at some stage. Can we avoid mistakes when this happens?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most Gooners I know still aren't convinced that we will last the pace - although every game that goes by these days is providing encouragement.

Personally, as long as we don't implode over the next couple of months I will be delighted with the real progress our team has made whether or not we prevail ultimately. Its telling that the likes of Sp*rs and Liverpool have now revealed their weaknesses, while we have surprised everyone with our consistency so far.

I think the 3 things you lay out is quite reasonable. And yeah, right now, I think we can win it, but I wouldn't say for sure, but if those things happens then I can be 90% sure!

[PGFC]

When Morata gets here I suppose.

[AFC Leveller]

Beating Chelsea is an obsoloute MUST. We cannot afford to lose that game and although a draw wouldnt be the worst result, a win would go a long way in convincing the players, manager and fans that we can win against the big boys. City away will be a tough test obviously but for me, Chelsea at home is probably the more important game given our record against them/their manager.

look at Man u last season when they won the league, they won at almost every big teams's back yard. We REALLY HAVE to beat two or 3 big teams to stand a chance of winning the league.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Look at Man Utd when they won it in 08/09. I hope we play the Chelsea game pragmatically, we don't need to force the result ie we don't need to fall in to the same pattern as we ever do against them.

[Power n Glory]

Beating Chelsea is an obsoloute MUST. We cannot afford to lose that game and although a draw wouldnt be the worst result, a win would go a long way in convincing the players, manager and fans that we can win against the big boys. City away will be a tough test obviously but for me, Chelsea at home is probably the more important game given our record against them/their manager.

look at Man u last season when they won the league, they won at almost every big teams's back yard. We REALLY HAVE to beat two or 3 big teams to stand a chance of winning the league.

You mean it it’s a must win in order to convince you. :lol: We really don’t know how a loss will effect this group of players or even if it will be detrimental to title chase. Chelsea could drop points before they meet us and the gap is widened. It’s been that sort of season and it’s way too early to call. They lost to Newcastle and drew to West Brom not so long ago. Why are we being counted out so easily? We have as much of a shot as the rest of the top teams.

[LDG]

The Chelsea game is a really interesting one. I want us to have learned our lessons, and not see us arse-fucked on the counter attack having had all of the possession.

For us not to be playing sideways balls accross their box looking for the one-two, trying to play our way through.

For us to take our chances clinically when the chance arrives.

And none of this taking 30 minutes to get started. Get on it FFS.

People say it's tactical genious on the part of Maureen, but it really isn't. It's just capitalising on our failings.....hopefully this time it will be different.

We'll cause City all kinds of problems btw.

[Letters]

Look at Man Utd when they won it in 08/09.
That is the only year in the last 10 years where the champions have not done well in the '6 pointers'.
On Statto.com I just checked every year going back go 03/04 and did a top 4 group comparison. Every year the champions did well in those games - not necessarily finishing top of that mini-table but 08/09 is the only year a team did particularly poorly and still won the title. It shows it's not impossible but it also shows it's unlikely. Every time I've seen us win the title we've done well in these games. A defeat away at City would not be a disaster but I don't think we can afford to lose that one and the Chelsea game. 2 points would be OK. 4 would be good. 6 would be awlsome.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Look at Man Utd when they won it in 08/09.

:crying:

[Marc Overmars]

The Chelsea game is a really interesting one. I want us to have learned our lessons, and not see us arse-fucked on the counter attack having had all of the possession.

For us not to be playing sideways balls accross their box looking for the one-two, trying to play our way through.

For us to take our chances clinically when the chance arrives.

And none of this taking 30 minutes to get started. Get on it FFS.

People say it's tactical genious on the part of Maureen, but it really isn't. It's just capitalising on our failings.....hopefully this time it will be different.

We'll cause City all kinds of problems btw.

Chelsea are comfortable playing without the ball which is why we've got such a poor record against them. 3 wins in what, 8-9 years? Maccy is right we don't need to force the issue but we probably will because it's our nature.

More confident about City tbh, well not of a result but turning up on the day at least.

[Marc Overmars]

:crying:

Not quite sure how you didn't win it that year. Liverpool were brilliant then.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Not quite sure how you didn't win it that year. Liverpool were brilliant then.

If I wanted to over-simplify it, I'd say Robbie Keane.

If I wanted to make shit up, I'd say Rafa's "Rant".

[Letters]

Never quite felt Liverpool could do it that year but they came pretty close.
In truth Utd were always in charge, when Liverpool were top Utd had games in hand and Liverpool didn't crumble, they won 10 of the last 11 games, drawing the other (the mental 4-4 with us).
Utd just kept winning too.
:shrug:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Never quite felt Liverpool could do it that year but they came pretty close.
In truth Utd were always in charge, when Liverpool were top Utd had games in hand and Liverpool didn't crumble, they won 10 of the last 11 games, drawing the other (the mental 4-4 with us).
Utd just kept winning too.
:shrug:
That's pretty much it, they were always relatively comfortable. I think the gap was always ~4 points/a game in hand.

The crucial period was late-November/December/January. Whereas we kept on drawing, United were going on that ridiculous run of about 14 consecutive clean sheets.

[Syn]

Sagna's injured?

Him and Szczesny are pretty much spot on exactly right hard to disagree only players we absolutely cannot do without. We have good back up in all other positions. Plus Sagna has been surprisingly key for us going forward too, everything goes down our right side.

Its off lads. Arab money versus Russian money for the title. Football :rose: shit sport. Ashes on tomorrow night. Real sport.

[Letters]

That's pretty much it, they were always relatively comfortable. I think the gap was always ~4 points/a game in hand.

The crucial period was late-November/December/January. Whereas we kept on drawing, United were going on that ridiculous run of about 14 consecutive clean sheets.
Yeah, P10 W3 D7 L0 in the middle of the season. That's what cost you ultimately.
Never mind, you can join us in supporting Arsenal this year :hug:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Yeah, P10 W3 D7 L0 in the middle of the season. That's what cost you ultimately.
Never mind, you can join us in supporting Arsenal this year :hug:

Will do... so long as you don't all say "lets just forget about the cups and focus on the league, it'll be worth it if we win".

[AFC Leveller]

I agree with the poster above above forcing the isue against Chelsea and faling into their hands. under Mourinho they sit back and wait for our inevitabke mistake before they pounce. We need to take a different approach, play it smartly and make sure we get the first goal. If we look at the Man u game then it looks like we're still not sure how to play against that type of team/set up but i hope being at home and top of the league will give the players and manager belief to go on and win.

at OT, for me at least, it looked like the manager wanted a draw and the players didnt look like they believed they could win.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I still think the loss at OT was primarily down to last minute changes arising from illness, and some players on the field being under the weather themselves.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

And fatigue.

They had just given everything against Dortmund.

[selassie]

I agree with the poster above above forcing the isue against Chelsea and faling into their hands. under Mourinho they sit back and wait for our inevitabke mistake before they pounce. We need to take a different approach, play it smartly and make sure we get the first goal. If we look at the Man u game then it looks like we're still not sure how to play against that type of team/set up but i hope being at home and top of the league will give the players and manager belief to go on and win.

at OT, for me at least, it looked like the manager wanted a draw and the players didnt look like they believed they could win.

Yep me too, to be brutally honest I wouldn't be overly upset if we draw with both Chelsea and City. Defeats in both could be potentially damaging, though I accept the league isn't won or lost in games against your rivals.

I do believe it's our best chance of beating Chelsea in a while, I honestly don't rate them that highly, they can be got at quite easily and defensively they are a lot weaker than in previous years, their midfield isn't up to much either. Individually they have some great players like Mata, Oscar, Ramires is very good on his day and obviously Lampard can still turn in a good performance, but they do not function that well as as a unit in Midfield and are very up and down. IMHO, if we play well, we will beat Chelsea.

City away will be very very difficult, similar to the Dortmund game IMHO, but like Chelsea, City are very questionable defensively, saying that Kompany is back now and I can't see Giroud getting much out of him. Despite that, we went there last year with a weaker less confident team and played them off the park, there is hope.

[selassie]

I'm started to get err well excited. Citeh draw, Chelski lose, United lose. If we win tomorrow we will put ourselves in such a good position going into the games against Citeh and Chelski.

Massive game tomorrow, massive couple of weeks coming up.

[WMUG]

If we win tomorrow, we can lose to both City and Chelsea and still be top.

Not bad, not bad at all. :dance:

[Ollie the Optimist]

with results today and in previous weeks, you just can't help but shake this feeling that it is our year.

[Marc Overmars]

Getting a bit nervous now, which means I'm gaining more and more belief every week. This is basically how easy United had it last year and it's the same for us now.

It's there for us if we want it. :pray:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

If we win tomorrow, we can lose to both City and Chelsea and still be top.

Not bad, not bad at all. :dance:
Fuhk a rubber duck!

Smashing!!

[Niall_Quinn]

We have nothing to fear except Mike Dean.

[Bumble]

Getting a bit nervous now, which means I'm gaining more and more belief every week. This is basically how easy United had it last year and it's the same for us now.

It's there for us if we want it. :pray:
we are now the bookies favourites I think, which is a bit scary. however we are the only consistent team hence why we are top. We beat Everton and Chelsea and we will do it, only team who could stop us is City but they are struggling on there travels. Would be quite amusing if City, the chavs and united all fail to make top 4 hehe.

[Dr Singh]

I literally care about nothing except the league.

We could crash out of everything at the earliest possible time for me if it means we keep focused on the league.

We don't have a huge squad, but we have a very high quality squad capable of sustaining the challenge. No injury would kill us except Giroud and perhaps Mertersacker.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't agree with that. When we've been competitive in the past, bombing out of competitions has swiftly been followed by a drop off in the league.

[Özim]

Big game today, if we can get the result it will be looking very positive indeed, ok we know the league isn't won before Christmas but a points advantage certainly helps, especially with a couple very big games against the top teams coming up.

There's a long way to go but this month is very important.

[Ollie the Optimist]

if we win today, we potentially have the chance to be 10 points clear of both city and chelsea on christmas day. now that would be one hell of a statement to make

[Dr Singh]

I don't agree with that. When we've been competitive in the past, bombing out of competitions has swiftly been followed by a drop off in the league.

That's because they all happen around the same time. Usually FA cup Quarters/Semis are around the time of CL quarters and it all happens back to back, as we lose points in the league, and everything just ends.

I get your point though and we are certainly a momentum club. This year does seem to have been a bit different. We bounced back from our defeat to Villa, Dortmund and Man Utd immediately. Times have changed. Ideally we would compete on all fronts, but that will only be possible if we sign a top striker in January, which I doubt.

[Özim]

On the face of it the result against Man U was a shocker, they've been losing and drawing most of their games.

[Ollie the Optimist]

if only half our squad wasn't ill. we would have hammered them :(

[Özim]

Today's result has put a few doubts in my mind, we'll see where we are after Chelsea and Man City.

[Ollie the Optimist]

everton are the best side we have faced all season. draw is a fair result. 5 points clear going into the city game. id have that any day

[Penguin]

Better than Dortmund? :unsure:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Better than Dortmund? :unsure:

yes, in the sense that i thought everton performed better against us then dortmund did.

[IBK]

Better than Dortmund? :unsure:

I was thinking that. Everton in their own way were as potent as Dortmund. We had clearer chances to win today though.

[Penguin]

Not sure about that, Dortmund were a much bigger goal threat

[Xhaka Can’t]

Dortmund is debatable. In the league, it isn't even close. They are the best team we've faced and I include teams that have beaten us.

[IBK]

Not sure about that, Dortmund were a much bigger goal threat

Can't remember more than 3/4 proper chances? Everton had these.

[Marc Overmars]

Just don't lose to City and Chelsea and I'll keep believing.

[Maestro]

Just don't lose to City and Chelsea and I'll keep believing.

that happens, then i'll start believing

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

In the same vein, I'm starting to believe we can finish ahead of United.

I might come to regret this normally-misplaced hope.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Football fans. :lol:

We'll never learn.

Also, come on Arsenal. :bow:

[Letters]

If we can get a point at City I'd be very happy.
Follow with a win vs Chelsea and it's on!

6 points: :yippee:
4 points: :patrice:
3 points: :dance:
2 points: :unsure:
1 point: :(
0 points: :crying:

[Ollie the Optimist]

in an odd way though, 2 points is better 3 points out of city and chelsea. i think not losing is the key here. 4 points would be outstanding, but id take 2

[Nayan]

Im starting to believe we might be good value for second rather than third

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we can get a point at City I'd be very happy.
Follow with a win vs Chelsea and it's on!

6 points: :yippee:
4 points: :patrice:
3 points: :dance:
2 points: :unsure:
1 point: :(
0 points: :crying:
5 points :blink:

[Letters]

in an odd way though, 2 points is better 3 points out of city and chelsea. i think not losing is the key here. 4 points would be outstanding, but id take 2

Given who we're playing I wouldn't be too distraught with 2 points. It would keep us top and fairly well clear of the 2 teams who are expected to be more serious contenders.

[Xhaka Can’t]

When we lost 1-3 at home to Villa, my biggest fear was that we'd blow the chance to go at least 7 points clear before the games against the moneybags firm.

And now it's happened. :(

[Penguin]

:lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

That's the type of game we would have lost 3-0 last season, had a defensive shambles for 2 of their goals, and had a chorus of boos at full time.

Believe :bow:

[I am invisible]

in an odd way though, 2 points is better 3 points out of city and chelsea. i think not losing is the key here. 4 points would be outstanding, but id take 2

Yeah, Paul Merson was saying something similar on soccer saturday - I'm not convinced though? I totally understand the logic about keeping confidence going, but for me this particular Arsenal side isn't one that crumbles after setbacks in the way other recent Arsenal sides have - if anything, setbacks seem to refocus them, and set them on impressive winning streaks?! I'd take 3 points over 2 if it were me - let Chelsea or City polish their "psychological blow", while we put points on the board and polish our Premier League trophy...

[Grebbo]

I think our season will depend on Walcott.... don't laugh! We're not going to sign a top striker in Jan so Walcott has a huge part to play.

Walcott is our Suarez (I can't believe I just typed that :lol: ) by that I mean he is our most dangerous player. On his day he can be devastating. Top scorer for us last season and I'd have thought he was top assister as well.

We're 5 points clear having hardly seen Walcott so far. He could really be the difference to us winning the league. I still think City have too much fire power and midfield brilliance not to win the league but stranger things have happened.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I thought not starting Walcott yesterday was bizarre, gave their full back an opportunity to roam into our half. With Walcott at least he would have been pinned back and a lot of their attacks would have been stifled. He's played a lot of 20 minute cameo's so must be fit enough to start now. I said it before the Cardiff game we aren't rotating enough. At some point I fear fatigue will set in and the wheels will start falling off.

[selassie]

I thought not starting Walcott yesterday was bizarre, gave their full back an opportunity to roam into our half. With Walcott at least he would have been pinned back and a lot of their attacks would have been stifled. He's played a lot of 20 minute cameo's so must be fit enough to start now. I said it before the Cardiff game we aren't rotating enough. At some point I fear fatigue will set in and the wheels will start falling off.

Theo has to start on Wednesday because I get the impression yesterday's team is Arsene's preferred line up for the Big games.

Loading the midfield makes sense when facing quality teams, more so when we go to Citeh on Sunday, but I would personally include Rosicky in the lineup as he offers lot more energy to his game than say Wilshere or a currently off-form Cazorla who IMO should be benched.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I thought not starting Walcott yesterday was bizarre, gave their full back an opportunity to roam into our half. With Walcott at least he would have been pinned back and a lot of their attacks would have been stifled. He's played a lot of 20 minute cameo's so must be fit enough to start now. I said it before the Cardiff game we aren't rotating enough. At some point I fear fatigue will set in and the wheels will start falling off.

It's only Ramsey, Özil, Koscielny, Ches and BFG that have played all our recent games and the first two haven't played all 90 minutes either. I'm not sure how much more rotation we can hope to get away with. It's hardly like Man City are giving much rest to their best players, nor Chelsea and if their squads were so much better, that is not what they would be doing.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

It's only Ramsey, Özil, Koscielny, Ches and BFG that have played all our recent games and the first two haven't played all 90 minutes either. I'm not sure how much more rotation we can hope to get away with. It's hardly like Man City are giving much rest to their best players, nor Chelsea and if their squads were so much better, that is not what they would be doing.

They have top draw back ups though, we have to rely on players like Podolski coming back who's either hit or miss depending on which side of bed he got out of. They bring in Navas who will be quality regardless. That's why I'm worried. We have more depth than we have had in previous years but a few injuries in key positions still worry me.

Ozil looks pretty tired to me although admittedly I hardly watched him at Madrid, so I don't know whether he's one of those machine type players that can play every game like Messi, Aguero, Ronaldo etc. Basing my judgment on what I've seen at Arsenal, I think he looks tired now. You watch a lot of La Liga, can he play every game or does he need rest?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They have top draw back ups though, we have to rely on players like Podolski coming back who's either hit or miss depending on which side of bed he got out of. They bring in Navas who will be quality regardless. That's why I'm worried. We have more depth than we have had in previous years but a few injuries in key positions still worry me.

Ozil looks pretty tired to me although admittedly I hardly watched him at Madrid, so I don't know whether he's one of those machine type players that can play every game like Messi, Aguero, Ronaldo etc. Basing my judgment on what I've seen at Arsenal, I think he looks tired now. You watch a lot of La Liga, can he play every game or does he need rest?

I'm not sure they do, at least not in the way it seems to be idealised. It's like any other team, if they aren't playing that often it's not all that likely you can expect them to come in and start performing immediately. Look at Dzeko, a good player he is has been sleepwalking through any recent appearance he has been making, hence why Negredo is so regularly picked. Jesus Navas has not been consistently performing but it seems to be agiven that Man City and Chelsea just have everybody performing at top level when that really isn't the case - if it was they wouldn't have lost 1-0 to Sunderland when they brought on those two aforementioned players to try and change the game.

Players get tired at the end of games but then they recover. It's what happens. He rarely gets injuries and he's not likely to pick up a suspension so he should be available for most games in a season. Mourinho did often bring off Özil after a certain amount of time it's true but he also regularly started him too.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I'm not sure they do, at least not in the way it seems to be idealised. It's like any other team, if they aren't playing that often it's not all that likely you can expect them to come in and start performing immediately. Look at Dzeko, a good player he is has been sleepwalking through any recent appearance he has been making, hence why Negredo is so regularly picked. Jesus Navas has not been consistently performing but it seems to be agiven that Man City and Chelsea just have everybody performing at top level when that really isn't the case - if it was they wouldn't have lost 1-0 to Sunderland when they brought on those two aforementioned players to try and change the game.

Players get tired at the end of games but then they recover. It's what happens. He rarely gets injuries and he's not likely to pick up a suspension so he should be available for most games in a season. Mourinho did often bring off Özil after a certain amount of time it's true but he also regularly started him too.

I'm not sure I buy that, Navas has been brilliant when I've seen him play. It's far from idealised, they spent on a top player and he's provided 3 goals/3 assists, but more importantly, had an impact when he's been on the pitch. Sure you can point out 1 or 2 games where the City team as a whole performed badly, but they certainly have the strongest squad alongside Chelsea. Anyway, comparing our squad to the likes of Man City's is ridiculous because we have very different philosophies when it comes to spending. I'm interested in what Wenger is doing with our squad; I'm not entirely comfortable with him starting certain players and leaving the likes of Walcott out when we have a tough run of fixtures coming up. For example, Cazorla is out of form, every Tom and his dog can see that, why didn't Walcott start yesterday? He came on and instantly gave us width, setting up a goal. Or even against Hull at home, giving Theo 70 minutes would have been ideal, giving us an opportunity to rest Ozil or Ramsey, the latter of which was also turd yesterday.

It's little things like that which make a difference over the course of a season. A fresh Ramsey could have been devastating yesterday but he was hopeless, due to fatigue. Yesterday we were too narrow and tried playing through congested areas. I know we had to keep it tight but we gave Everton an incentive to continue attacking us.

And you didn't answer my Ozil question, is he a machine type player or will he need rest at some point?

[Power n Glory]

Theo will get his chance. Everton came out the blocks flying and dominated possession and I don't think anyone was expecting that. Even if Theo had started, I think we'd have still been shocked because we couldn't hold possession. Took us a while to get a shot on goal. The best we could have hoped for was to counter attack because our midfield were struggling. But we went a goal up, Theo contributed with the assist, it was looking good.

The main change to line up would have been Flamini over Arteta. We needed his physical presence and organisation. Our full backs were getting pulled way to narrow, Gibbs especially and Flamini is good at covering the flanks and giving instructions so we're defending as a unit and looking for cohesive.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Oviedo had a field day because he had no threat to pin him back. If Theo was starting he wouldn't have pushed up as much. Also, we could have hit them on the break more effectively when they committed their players into our half, leaving them exposed. None of that was possible because we had no pace in our attack. Not to mention the fact that Ozil once again had noone to play through balls to. At one point he literally begged Jenks to overlap him when he had the ball but Jenkinson stayed in his position. Ozil cut inside again through a congested area. Ineffective.

[Power n Glory]

I agree about the counter attacks but it was such a poor showing from the midfield, we just couldn’t win the ball back and more combative DM like Flamini may have really helped break up their play. To be honest, the three subs he made probably should been starter. Rosicky is always up for a scrap as well.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'm not sure I buy that, Navas has been brilliant when I've seen him play. It's far from idealised, they spent on a top player and he's provided 3 goals/3 assists, but more importantly, had an impact when he's been on the pitch. Sure you can point out 1 or 2 games where the City team as a whole performed badly, but they certainly have the strongest squad alongside Chelsea. Anyway, comparing our squad to the likes of Man City's is ridiculous because we have very different philosophies when it comes to spending. I'm interested in what Wenger is doing with our squad; I'm not entirely comfortable with him starting certain players and leaving the likes of Walcott out when we have a tough run of fixtures coming up. For example, Cazorla is out of form, every Tom and his dog can see that, why didn't Walcott start yesterday? He came on and instantly gave us width, setting up a goal. Or even against Hull at home, giving Theo 70 minutes would have been ideal, giving us an opportunity to rest Ozil or Ramsey, the latter of which was also turd yesterday.

It's little things like that which make a difference over the course of a season. A fresh Ramsey could have been devastating yesterday but he was hopeless, due to fatigue. Yesterday we were too narrow and tried playing through congested areas. I know we had to keep it tight but we gave Everton an incentive to continue attacking us.

And you didn't answer my Ozil question, is he a machine type player or will he need rest at some point?

Walcott has barely come back. If resting players is that important then having someone like Theo who has barely played, for the second half of the season can only be of benefit. Or doesn't it work like that?

I'm not basing the discussion on Jesus Navas by stats, solely by incosistent performances and that's not a huge slide against him, it's unfair to expect consistency from somebody if they aren't consistently playing. Anyway two of those goals came against Tottenham which is not to be churlish enough to take them away from him but like you say, you can point to 1 or 2 games.

I don't think Man City's squad is as good as it was in 2011/2012. Tottenham have shown that spending money doesn't neccesarily equate to a squad ready to take good results week after week but nobody seems to want to challenge that perception for Chelsea and Man City.

We only had congested areas to play through because Everton pressed us so well. Players do have poor games from time to time, you said that about Jesus Navas not long ago and you're not attributing those games of his due to tiredness and I understand that's because he hasn't played as many minutes but this whole tiredness excuse is becoming so easy to wheel out, I wonder what the point is in coaching players to do anything else other than have physical endurance.

I don't know what rest means. How long for when a player is truly rested? Ramsey just had two weeks off internationals, five games after that he's now physically struggling supposedly. My instinct for Özil is that no, he won't need it. I said Mourinho very often picked which obviously suggests he is fairly robust enough.

[Ollie the Optimist]

They have top draw back ups though, we have to rely on players like Podolski coming back who's either hit or miss depending on which side of bed he got out of. They bring in Navas who will be quality regardless. That's why I'm worried. We have more depth than we have had in previous years but a few injuries in key positions still worry me.

Ozil looks pretty tired to me although admittedly I hardly watched him at Madrid, so I don't know whether he's one of those machine type players that can play every game like Messi, Aguero, Ronaldo etc. Basing my judgment on what I've seen at Arsenal, I think he looks tired now. You watch a lot of La Liga, can he play every game or does he need rest?

but we've have an injury crisis in key position this season already, and guess what? we're top. by five points. during this season, we've had gibbs, sagna, vermaelen, mertesacker, arteta, flamini, walcott, podolski, gnabry, OX, wilshere, cazorla, rosicky all out with injuries. we've spent most of this season playing without wingers because of injuries so we've answered what happens when we get injuries. we go out and win.

chelsea and city have better squads on paper but that doesn't mean in reality they have better squads. if you're squad players come in, can't be arsed and you lose the game, whats the point? look at city and chelsea's record this season, especially in away games. its appalling yet we have gone to some tricky away games and lost only once. we've gone into these games with tons on injuries, you only have to look at our bench in most of the games, its been poor yet we still keep winning. as maccy says, city have brought on great players as subs and still lost, we bring on bendtner and we win.

the difference is squads so far this season has been hunger and desire. chelsea and city both look at times like they don't care, just look at their away form whereas every arsenal player this season looks up for it. the reserves when they come in, make a mark. everyone is fighting for that win and while we might not have the squad depth that city or chelsea enjoy, right now we have the stronger squad because we want it. we fight for it.

[Marc Overmars]

I understand why people doubt our credentials, a lot has happened in the past 8 years to create that perception of doubt, but I don't get why City and Chelsea are made out to be so much more legit. They've had some dire results but nothing seems to be said, you can bet your bottom dollar the next bad result we have will be held up as proof of our inability to challenge.

Chelsea haven't challenged for the league in years. This 'Mourinho factor' is bollocks, his 04/05 team was lightyears ahead of this crop.

City fluked it the other year but were nowhere to be seen last season.

Both have a lot of improving to do as well and the basis of what we've seen so far, we're the only side who have actually improved.

[Ollie the Optimist]

in the last two years, chelsea finished behind us and then 2 points ahead last season. how can they be a much better team in terms of a title challenge? the evidence is there that we are dam close to them. it says a lot about chelsea that if you take lukakus goals from last season and this (25) its more then all of chelseas strikers combined in that time (16)

city's away form is abysmal. 2nd away win of the season for them was won in decemeber. thats not title challenging form at all and they haven't had tricky away games ether. cardiff, sunderland, villa, stoke. their hardest away game has been chelsea. everyone says that when city get their away form together, they will be the side to beat. why are they the side to beat? why aren't the team who have been the best side in 2013 (we have the most points in this year) the side to beat?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Walcott has barely come back. If resting players is that important then having someone like Theo who has barely played, for the second half of the season can only be of benefit. Or doesn't it work like that?

I'm not basing the discussion on Jesus Navas by stats, solely by incosistent performances and that's not a huge slide against him, it's unfair to expect consistency from somebody if they aren't consistently playing. Anyway two of those goals came against Tottenham which is not to be churlish enough to take them away from him but like you say, you can point to 1 or 2 games.

I don't think Man City's squad is as good as it was in 2011/2012. Tottenham have shown that spending money doesn't neccesarily equate to a squad ready to take good results week after week but nobody seems to want to challenge that perception for Chelsea and Man City.

We only had congested areas to play through because Everton pressed us so well. Players do have poor games from time to time, you said that about Jesus Navas not long ago and you're not attributing those games of his due to tiredness and I understand that's because he hasn't played as many minutes but this whole tiredness excuse is becoming so easy to wheel out, I wonder what the point is in coaching players to do anything else other than have physical endurance.

I don't know what rest means. How long for when a player is truly rested? Ramsey just had two weeks off internationals, five games after that he's now physically struggling supposedly. My instinct for Özil is that no, he won't need it. I said Mourinho very often picked which obviously suggests he is fairly robust enough.

Well no, it doesn't work like that. We're talking about now, not the future. If Theo is fit to start then he should play, there's no point holding him back then unleashing him in the second half of the season hoping that it'll benefit us then, we might be 10 points behind come April, our run of tough fixtures start now. And as I mentioned earlier, he has played enough to gain fitness and start a game. If I remember correctly he came back for the Southampton game. He also featured in Marseille, Cardiff and Hull. He is near full fitness so why didn't he start? If we aren't going to rotate our squad at key moments of the season, when will we?

Everton pressed us well but the best way to counter those type of tactics is to use expansion football. Use wingers to draw their players out, then create angles to work around them. We did none of that yesterday because we tried the tippy tappy stuff through the middle. In the end, it didn't work and we were left frustrated because they blocked our efforts. With someone like Walcott in the team you have instant width, drawing their players out and creating more space to get in behind.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well no, it doesn't work like that. We're talking about now, not the future. If Theo is fit to start then he should play, there's no point holding him back then unleashing him in the second half of the season hoping that it'll benefit us then, we might be 10 points behind come April, our run of tough fixtures start now. And as I mentioned earlier, he has played enough to gain fitness and start a game. If I remember correctly he came back for the Southampton game. He also featured in Marseille, Cardiff and Hull. He is near full fitness so why didn't he start? If we aren't going to rotate our squad at key moments of the season, when will we?

Everton pressed us well but the best way to counter those type of tactics is to use expansion football. Use wingers to draw their players out, then create angles to work around them. We did none of that yesterday because we tried the tippy tappy stuff through the middle. In the end, it didn't work and we were left frustrated because they blocked our efforts. With someone like Walcott in the team you have instant width, drawing their players out and creating more space to get in behind.

I'm not suggesting that's indeed what we're doing, I just find it a little odd that there is clamouring for Theo when by the rationale given to all other players, in a couple of weeks he'll be in need of a rest. I agree that Theo should be playing, if he makes our team better and if that's the case then I hope he does as much as possible.

However the very idea of resting players is always thinking about the future game, so I don't think you can say we're talking about the here and now because that's not what resting players is attempting to achieve - resting players is really in opposition to 'taking one game as it comes'. Also, we have been rotating and I am certain Theo will start on Wednesday.

The introduction of Theo has seemingly sparked discussion as to 'why he didn't start'. Why is it a bad thing that we had subs that came on and changed the game (well for a bit)? Isn't that what we're aiming for? If not then having a big squad is pointles because nobody will ever be comfortable with players coming off from the bench.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I'm not suggesting that's indeed what we're doing, I just find it a little odd that there is clamouring for Theo when by the rationale given to all other players, in a couple of weeks he'll be in need of a rest. I agree that Theo should be playing, if he makes our team better and if that's the case then I hope he does as much as possible.

However the very idea of resting players is always thinking about the future game, so I don't think you can say we're talking about the here and now because that's not what resting players is attempting to achieve - resting players is really in opposition to 'taking one game as it comes'. Also, we have been rotating and I am certain Theo will start on Wednesday.

The introduction of Theo has seemingly sparked discussion as to 'why he didn't start'. Why is it a bad thing that we had subs that came on and changed the game (well for a bit)? Isn't that what we're aiming for? If not then having a big squad is pointles because nobody will ever be comfortable with players coming off from the bench.

I also think Theo will start on Wednesday but my discussion is more concerned with the league. Theo has come back from injury and slowly built his minutes up, to a point where he could have started against Everton. In my view, it would have enhanced our possibility of scoring goals and winning, rather than giving Everton the incentive to steam roll us.

As for the questions in your last paragraph, it isn't necessarily a bad thing but if we aren't going to maximise the use of our squad at important points of the season, what's the point? Ramsey and Ozil have played a lot and while I'm not suggesting both should have been rested, a fresh Theo coming back from injury would have been more dangerous than a tired Ramsey, for instance. Wenger goes on about this 'red zone' analysis regarding player fatigue and injury, well Ramsey, Ozil and Giroud must surely be in the black zone now.

Anyway, we'll see what happens after these run of games and where we are in the new year. I hope we don't come back to this discussion in January, because if we do, it means fatigue has indeed set in and we've slipped down the table.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I also think Theo will start on Wednesday but my discussion is more concerned with the league. Theo has come back from injury and slowly built his minutes up, to a point where he could have started against Everton. In my view, it would have enhanced our possibility of scoring goals and winning, rather than giving Everton the incentive to steam roll us.

As for the questions in your last paragraph, it isn't necessarily a bad thing but if we aren't going to maximise the use of our squad at important points of the season, what's the point? Ramsey and Ozil have played a lot and while I'm not suggesting both should have been rested, a fresh Theo coming back from injury would have been more dangerous than a tired Ramsey, for instance. Wenger goes on about this 'red zone' analysis regarding player fatigue and injury, well Ramsey, Ozil and Giroud must surely be in the black zone now.

Anyway, we'll see what happens after these run of games and where we are in the new year. I hope we don't come back to this discussion in January, because if we do, it means fatigue has indeed set in and we've slipped down the table.

I feel like Theo should start against Man City but if he does start against Napoli then that means somebody else doesn't, which would mean somebody has been rested.

Of course they've played a lot, they've been our best performing and most productive forward players this season - just like Hazard for Chelsea, or Aguero for Man City, they start most games. If they were past the red zone, they'd be injured. Some players are just that more robust than others. For somebody like Wilshere it makes more sense to make sure he doesn't play too many games in a week because of the inflammation his ankle is likely to suffer. Giroud didn't play against Hull so he had six full days off but I can't say his performance against Everton was particularly good, so what benefit to him did it give? I'd say, not much. How much rest are players supposed to get before they can go again, a week? And how many times does that have to occur?

If fatigue sets in by January then we don't have a hope in hell of winning the league, no amount of rotation would see them last the course until May. If you look at recent challengers to the Champions League, it's not until March they really faltered and in Villa's case they were in Europe that season too. There are other reasons for poor form than merely tiredness, otherwise it makes tactical management and discussion thereof rather pointless.

Teams like Newcastle and West Ham haven't had Europe to consider but going by the points put forward that it doesn't really matter if you play a large amount of games in a short space of time, which in this period is the case for all sides means they are just as likely to suffer 'fatigue' in upcoming games against us as you seem to think we will against them.

[AFC Leveller]

I understand why people doubt our credentials, a lot has happened in the past 8 years to create that perception of doubt, but I don't get why City and Chelsea are made out to be so much more legit. They've had some dire results but nothing seems to be said, you can bet your bottom dollar the next bad result we have will be held up as proof of our inability to challenge.

Chelsea haven't challenged for the league in years. This 'Mourinho factor' is bollocks, his 04/05 team was lightyears ahead of this crop.

City fluked it the other year but were nowhere to be seen last season.

Both have a lot of improving to do as well and the basis of what we've seen so far, we're the only side who have actually improved.

I agree with that.

City have lost 4 (i think) away from hone and drew to Saints so there is obviously a flaw there yet they are favourties because they have a big squad? Chelsea have also been outplayed and beaten by mediocre sides too so how come they arent singled out? Squad depth will be a slight advantage come March/April but who says we dont have depth? Vermaelen, Nacho and jenks have all proved to a certain extent they can come in and do a good job, the midfield has 2 playerw for every position (Theo/Gnabs, Pod/Ox, Rosicky/Ozil/Cazorla, Ramsey/Jack, Flams/Arteta etc). Its just upfront where we really do lack cover and we should dip into the market in January to avoid repeating the same mistakes we made in 2008.

[Özim]

I understand why people doubt our credentials, a lot has happened in the past 8 years to create that perception of doubt, but I don't get why City and Chelsea are made out to be so much more legit. They've had some dire results but nothing seems to be said, you can bet your bottom dollar the next bad result we have will be held up as proof of our inability to challenge.

Chelsea haven't challenged for the league in years. This 'Mourinho factor' is bollocks, his 04/05 team was lightyears ahead of this crop.

City fluked it the other year but were nowhere to be seen last season.

Both have a lot of improving to do as well and the basis of what we've seen so far, we're the only side who have actually improved.

Yeah they have had some dire results I agree but I can see both sides coming good in the 2nd half of the season, they haven't been great so far. I'm not convinced we can last the distance, I still think the squad looks a tad lightweight and will run out of steam when we get more injuries and players get tired, the other teams have a much deeper squad to pick from. If we made a signing or two in January that might convince me otherwise, but I can't see that happening to be honest.

[Letters]

Yeah they have had some dire results I agree but I can see both sides coming good in the 2nd half of the season, they haven't been great so far. I'm not convinced we can last the distance, I still think the squad looks a tad lightweight and will run out of steam when we get more injuries and players get tired, the other teams have a much deeper squad to pick from. If we made a signing or two in January that might convince me otherwise, but I can't see that happening to be honest.
I generally agree although if we get decent results in the next 2 games then I'll start to take us more seriously as contenders.
I don't think winning the title should be the benchmark for success this season though, given where we were last year.

[Özim]

I generally agree although if we get decent results in the next 2 games then I'll start to take us more seriously as contenders.
I don't think winning the title should be the benchmark for success this season though, given where we were last year.

Yes next couple games are big games and could convince me otherwise as well, it's true but given our position at the moment we probably won't get a better chance to win it for a while.

[Ollie the Optimist]

given the amount of injuries we've already had this season, using it as a reason why we won't the league to me just seems lazy. a lot of the reasons I've seen given as to why we won't win the league are based on things that happened years ago and no one can be bothered to change their views.

using the excuse we can't cope with injuries was true a few years ago, when you look at how many injuries we have had so far this season and how many of them together, we were still winning games. we have spent most of this season playing with no wingers because they are all injured and one striker with bentdner as back up because of injures yet are top by 5 points. its the same with squad depth, for all of chelseas supposed squad depth, they finished 2 points ahead last season and four behind the season before.

chelsea and city rotate their squads easily with their squad depth but it makes no difference if they can do that, if the players who come in then lose the game. if they need to bring in the reserve players and they keep losing as they have done most of the season in the so called easy games, then they can't rotate because they can't afford to lose.

there are some valid reasons why we might not win the league and as letters says, given where we were last year, we have already shown significant improvement but when talking about our title challenge, it bores me to keep reading outdated views such as arsenal can't cope with injuries, have no leaders, can't defend etc. everyone looks at what happened in 2008 not what Arsenal have done in 2013

[Syn]

http://media2.giphy.com/media/11gC4odpiRKuha/giphy.gif

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

It's all irrelevant anyway, since this is quite clearly our year :scarf:

[selassie]

I think we will do very well to finish 2nd this season behind Man City. We need to make sure we keep picking up points against the lesser sides because apart from City, who I think will be top by xmas, we have the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool & Everon breathing down our necks.

[IBK]

Its not that we don;t want our team to succeed. Its that our team have failed on a number of occasions to show they are the real deal. There is little to suggest we've got what it takes, I'm afraid.

[Syn]

Did you used to be subtractabayour?

[Power n Glory]

Did you used to be subtractabayour?

:lol: you didn't know?

[Power n Glory]

Its not that we don;t want our team to succeed. Its that our team have failed on a number of occasions to show they are the real deal. There is little to suggest we've got what it takes, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty deflated after that beating. I've heard all the comments about losing to the better side, our squad lacking depth....all true but it glosses over the complete collapse of confidence in the squad right now. A nervous performance and once again they failed to respond. That was even worse than the Napoli game. We can play better than that!

[Alpha]

I'm pretty deflated after that beating. I've heard all the comments about losing to the better side, our squad lacking depth....all true but it glosses over the complete collapse of confidence in the squad right now. A nervous performance and once again they failed to respond. That was even worse than the Napoli game. We can play better than that!

Good post but should have been in the match reaction . Wrong place .

[IBK]

Good post but should have been in the match reaction . Wrong place .

I wouldn't call his post heat of the moment. I think its a fair reflection on what we have seen today and lately.

[IBK]

Did you used to be subtractabayour?

Yup. Why?

[Power n Glory]

Good post but should have been in the match reaction . Wrong place .

I've said similar in the match thread but I'm responding to IBK's post. Over the past few days we've been talking about our title chances and the tests we've faced over the few days. Never saw this result coming in. Totally deflated. We lost but it's the manner and capitulation that worries me most. You don't lose like that when top of the league.

[Niall_Quinn]

Should have beaten Everton, should have beaten Napoli. Then the city result could be written off as the freakshow it actually was. Now it's the third bad result in a week and leaves us very exposed should things go against us vs the chavs. We're just one dodgy ref away from a 4th beating, i you count the result against Everton as a loss which psychologically it was. Very poor showing when the real test came, mostly down to negative tactics in the two earlier games. I suppose the question really ought to be when will Wenger believe. If he doesn't think we can go out and play Everton and Napoli off the park then he can't really hold much hopes for a title shot.

[Grebbo]

Let's see what Wenger does in Jan. No-way would Ozil have joined us without the promise of us splashing the cash or 'project' as it's called these days.

There's no shame in getting thrashed by City. Their squad is light years, or about £300m, ahead of ours. And yes it is that simple, the best players cost big bucks, the best players make the best teams and the best teams more often than not win the trophies.

[Özim]

Let's see what Wenger does in Jan. No-way would Ozil have joined us without the promise of us splashing the cash or 'project' as it's called these days.

There's no shame in getting thrashed by City. Their squad is light years, or about £300m, ahead of ours. And yes it is that simple, the best players cost big bucks, the best players make the best teams and the best teams more often than not win the trophies.

There is shame in a club of our size getting thrashed by anyone to be honest, it's unacceptable whatever the opposition.

[JonasTC]

Let's see what Wenger does in Jan. No-way would Ozil have joined us without the promise of us splashing the cash or 'project' as it's called these days.

There's no shame in getting thrashed by City. Their squad is light years, or about £300m, ahead of ours. And yes it is that simple, the best players cost big bucks, the best players make the best teams and the best teams more often than not win the trophies.

I have my hopes up for the January transfer window, apperently we tried to get David Villa back in January and he wanted to go to us, but Barca in the end were afraid of injured players and promised him he could leave in the summer instead. So i think we will see a good striker joining our ranks, i would love for us to go for a guy like Michu, i really believe he can be a top striker for a team like ours. He has the height and can do a target man job like Giroud, but he has better finishing, is faster and is smarter aswell, which would see him do the much needed runs behind defence that Giroud isnt doing. Other realistic names could be Benteke or Pato.

[milla]

Michu, Benteke and Pato are the best available right now. They are not in the top bracket but very very good players. All three of them come with more pace and technique compare to what we have now. :coffee:

[Özim]

Pato's is the Brazilian Reyes, he was overrated and overhyped and that's why he's back in Brazil with no decent European clubs interested.

[milla]

I like Reyes, fine by me.

[Özim]

I'm glad you like him, but in football terms he was a flop. Best avoid those we're not a graveyard for overhyped footballers.

[milla]

You can say what you like. Pato is no flopped but blighted by injuries during his stay in Milan. Reyes was just a simple case of mismanaged by Arsenal. He was good at Madrid and won medals in Spain and Portugal.

Vela is not bad choice either, 0.5 goal ration for nearly 2 season at Real Sociedad.

[Özim]

If he was that good Milan wouldn't have sold him and he wouldn't be in Brazil. Brazilians go back to Brazil to retire, he's just 24 which says a lot, why isn't he at another European club if he's that good?

Reyes was a flop, how many times has he been picked for Spain since 2006? None, not even as a squad player. He wasn't mismanaged he just didn't have it in him, that's why he's never been a start for any of the teams he's played for, he's not stood out for any of the teams he's been at since he's left Arsenal.

Vela is not bad, he's never coming back though and I'm not convinced he fits in at Arsenal.

[selassie]

You can say what you like. Pato is no flopped but blighted by injuries during his stay in Milan. Reyes was just a simple case of mismanaged by Arsenal. He was good at Madrid and won medals in Spain and Portugal.

Vela is not bad choice either, 0.5 goal ration for nearly 2 season at Real Sociedad.

Pato is a risk not worth taking IMHO. We essentially need a striker better than Giroud who is reliable and injury free. Pato's injury record is not pretty, not that dissimilar to Diaby. Moreover his level has dropped and he has lost quite a bit of pace due to the injuries he has had over the past few years.

DO NOT WANT.

Vela? He's made for La Liga...he had his chances here and failed.

[Nayan]

Michu, Benteke and Pato are the best available right now. They are not in the top bracket but very very good players. All three of them come with more pace and technique compare to what we have now. :coffee:

benteke is clearly on strike until he gets his move. Michu looks like the new roque santa cruz

[The Ogg Monster]

Podolski will be like a new signing I think.

[selassie]

benteke is clearly on strike until he gets his move. Michu looks like the new roque santa cruz

I don't think Benteke is an upgrade on Giroud TBH. Sure he has more raw potential and is at an age where he can be developed but I don't think he's what we need right now. Him plus a world class striker would be great but we don't have the budget for that.

I do rate Benteke, but not really highly.

Michu IMHO would be a slight upgrade but he's not what we need. He's not mobile enough IMHO, he is more mobile than Giroud and a better finisher but there are other areas of his game that I don't think he excels over Giroud and he isn't the sort of player I would drop for Giroud.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Sorta opposite to the original purpose of this thread, but what position would you be disappointed with come May?

Obviously it depends on a lot of things; transfers, injuries, the gap between final positions etc, but given your start to the season and the creep of optimism and hope that you had turned a corner it's only natural expectations will go up. I guess this question goes for the cups as well.

I was trying to think of it in regards to my own team and despite me having no real expectations of top 4 this season [though I obviously hoped we'd challenge], that we are theoretically in a "title race" and bearing in mind Everton in 5th are just 4 points behind yourselves, I would still bite your hand off for 4th. As such, right now, I'd probably be a little disappointed if we didn't, especially if it meant finishing below Moyes.

[Marc Overmars]

Anything below 2nd would suck given the form we've shown so far.

[GP]

Honestly, with the position we'd put ourselves in, I'll be disappointed with anything other than 1st.

3rd or lower would be a disaster.

[JonasTC]

Right now i would be fine with a 3rd place tbh, but if we're still 1st in april and then end up having a 2 weeks like we've just went through, i would probably be dissapointed ending up 3rd.

[Letters]

I'd be happy with 3rd, disappointed with anything less 'cos I think after Chelsea and City we're the best side.

[selassie]

I'd be satisfied with 3rd, though I do believe we can take 2nd if we sort ourselves out.

Saying that has anybody seen our Feb/March Schedule...it's brutal and this is when I expect our season to collapse....

Feb 8 LiverpoolA
Feb 13 ManUnitedH
Feb 19 BayernH
Mar 12 BayernA
Mar 15 TotenhamA
Mar 22 ChelseaA
Mar 29 ManCityH
Apr 5 EvertonA

[Heisenberg]

I think I'd be upset with 3rd or lower after how we've started. We haven't finished in the top 2 since 2004/05. Before 2005/06, we were in the top 2 for like 9 seasons in a row. Even if we didn't dominate like United did then, we were clearly always up there, there was never any doubt that we were one of the two best sides in this country. Subsequent to that, the best we've done is 3rd, but mostly it's been characterized by fights for 4th place and scraping into the Champions League.

Even if we don't actually win the title, coming in the top 2 would mean we're back where we belong :)

[Özim]

I'd be satisfied with 3rd, though I do believe we can take 2nd if we sort ourselves out.

Saying that has anybody seen our Feb/March Schedule...it's brutal and this is when I expect our season to collapse....

Feb 8 LiverpoolA
Feb 13 ManUnitedH
Feb 19 BayernH
Mar 12 BayernA
Mar 15 TotenhamA
Mar 22 ChelseaA
Mar 29 ManCityH
Apr 5 EvertonA

Yeah that's a tough schedule, can't see this team coming through that in one piece, I expect us to collapse as well based on this, that's unless we somehow signed someone prolific up front (which I can't see us doing).

[Power n Glory]

I'd be satisfied with 3rd, though I do believe we can take 2nd if we sort ourselves out.

Saying that has anybody seen our Feb/March Schedule...it's brutal and this is when I expect our season to collapse....

Feb 8 LiverpoolA
Feb 13 ManUnitedH
Feb 19 BayernH
Mar 12 BayernA
Mar 15 TotenhamA
Mar 22 ChelseaA
Mar 29 ManCityH
Apr 5 EvertonA

I was wondering where the CL games would land. I knew that run of games was a joke but we’ve done ourselves no favours with Bayern. The tie won’t be over in one leg. We’ll need to buy a striker in January if we want the title. I can’t see Giroud scoring over 15 goals in the Prem. Ramsey looks to be slowing down on the goals and we’ll need Theo and someone else to go on a scoring run. Cazorla needs to step it up and I hope Pod hits the ground running when he returns.

[fakeyank]

I'd be happy with 3rd, disappointed with anything less 'cos I think after Chelsea and City we're the best side.

Chelsea hasnt impressed me much tbh. I'd put Liverpool up there with them. It's just that Mourinho has Wenger tied up by the balls, that makes us think Chelsea is among the top sides.

[IBK]

Says it all for me, I'm afraid. We have the greatest stability of any team in the league. Our major competitors are all in flux. We have finally managed to keep all our players together, and have spent 42M on a player who is universally rated as one of the best. Yes, before the season began 3rd might have seemed a reasonable aspiration, but the fact that people are lauding 3rd when we are more or less top at Xmas, in the weakest season most of our competitors will have speaks volumes.

[Power n Glory]

Says it all for me, I'm afraid. We have the greatest stability of any team in the league. Our major competitors are all in flux. We have finally managed to keep all our players together, and have spent 42M on a player who is universally rated as one of the best. Yes, before the season began 3rd might have seemed a reasonable aspiration, but the fact that people are lauding 3rd when we are more or less top at Xmas, in the weakest season most of our competitors will have speaks volumes.

I don't get it either. I think this is our shot and should be taking advantage of this moment. I fear for our chances once Mourinho and Pellegrini get to grips with their teams. Chelsea are in the running even though they're playing badly! It's a worry and the opportunity may not be so clear come next season. I hope we buy in January.

[Xhaka Can’t]

With the change of Manager, City strengthened considerably.

Our team is now emerging from a period of chronic underinvestment in the squad. There would have been team stability had we not even made the last minute enhancements to the team because there was no one interested in anyone that was left after the Van Persie transfer.

It is hardly surprising that expectations were not high. At the start of the season, many people's aspirations did not even include a place in the top 4.

[Bumble]

I don't think we did underinvest in squad. We have always had 3rd or 4th highest wage bill. Last season we were paying 1m a week more than spurs. So where we have finished is where we should finish.

This season 2nd would be good. 3rd about par. 4th fine. Can't see us win it now. Especially looking at Feb and March run.

[selassie]

With the change of Manager, City strengthened considerably.

Our team is now emerging from a period of chronic underinvestment in the squad. There would have been team stability had we not even made the last minute enhancements to the team because there was no one interested in anyone that was left after the Van Persie transfer.

It is hardly surprising that expectations were not high. At the start of the season, many people's aspirations did not even include a place in the top 4.

This.

I do see where IBK and P'n'G are coming from but I don't yet have enough faith in the team.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't think we did underinvest in squad. We have always had 3rd or 4th highest wage bill. Last season we were paying 1m a week more than spurs. So where we have finished is where we should finish.

This season 2nd would be good. 3rd about par. 4th fine. Can't see us win it now. Especially looking at Feb and March run.

Investment in the playing stock (for want of a better term) is different to overpaying the dross we had left once we'd sold off pretty much every saleable asset on the team.

[Bumble]

Investment in the playing stock (for want of a better term) is different to overpaying the dross we had left once we'd sold off pretty much every saleable asset on the team.
there is a link though. We overpaid salaries meaning we couldn't invest elsewhere. But at least now the deadwood has mostly gone so we can move on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

there is a link though. We overpaid salaries meaning we couldn't invest elsewhere. But at least now the deadwood has mostly gone so we can move on.

:pray:

[fakeyank]

Beat Chelsea next week and we will be up there challenging.. draw and/or lose, then we can welcome 4th place trophy again!

[Master Splinter]

Yeah if we win, we get 57 points and if we draw/lose we get -68/-96 points.

[Letters]

Says it all for me, I'm afraid. We have the greatest stability of any team in the league. Our major competitors are all in flux. We have finally managed to keep all our players together, and have spent 42M on a player who is universally rated as one of the best. Yes, before the season began 3rd might have seemed a reasonable aspiration, but the fact that people are lauding 3rd when we are more or less top at Xmas, in the weakest season most of our competitors will have speaks volumes.
I don't understand where this thought comes from that this season is our big chance.
The last 3 seasons we've finished 12, 19 and 16 points off the champions.
We have kept our squad together but only because we didn't have any truly top players left that anyone would come in for. We did make one big signing but did you really think that would be enough to turn us from a side who have struggled to stay in the top 4 the last 2 seasons into champions elect? You say our 'major competitors' are in flux, I'm not sure they'd see us as competitors, we haven't challenged for the title in years.

Out of last season's top 3 only one club has been seriously disrupted by change and that's Utd - losing Fergie, surely the GOAT, was always going to affect them and it's showing. City and Chelsea are surely thr more likely beneficiaries of that. Both have got better managers than last season, one of whom has won the PL for his club before, and both have very expensively assembled squads.

We've looked a lot better than last season so far but IMO the title is beyond us this year and I don't see how after the struggles over the last two seasons to stay in the top 4, let alone mount a title challenge, we could be expected to win the title this year. We've made progress, we seem to be heading in the right direction, but there's a way to go yet and it's always going to be difficult competing with the 2 billionaire-fuelled clubs.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

:pray:

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

We'll see what happens in the spring. There's too much speculation involved at the moment.

If we fade away like we have done when we've previously challenged, then it would be terribly disappointing. If we can stay competitive and take it to the wire, even have a good cup run, then I'll consider this season as good progress.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i know there is the question that if arsenal can't beat the big teams can they really win the league?


but after tonight and previous results, why isn't the question to chelsea and city, if they can't beat the small teams, can they really win the league?

[Letters]

i know there is the question that if arsenal can't beat the big teams can they really win the league?


but after tonight and previous results, why isn't the question to chelsea and city, if they can't beat the small teams, can they really win the league?
Well, they're only 2 and 3 points away from us so their record can't have been that bad.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Well, they're only 2 and 3 points away from us so their record can't have been that bad.

city have two away wins all season in the league. its the middle of december. chelsea have 2 about 2/3 away wins all season too and have been very dodgy at home against the smaller sides

[Letters]

city have two away wins all season in the league. its the middle of december. chelsea have 2 about 2/3 away wins all season too and have been very dodgy at home against the smaller sides
And they're 2 and 3 points behind us respectively :shrug:

[Ollie the Optimist]

And they're 2 and 3 points behind us respectively :shrug:

true however as much as we have been poor in the big games, they have both been shit in the other games. everyone says we won't win the league because we don't beat the big teams (they have point) however, there are a lot less big games then small games. if you can't beat the small teams like city and chelsea have failed to do so far, they won't win the league

[Power n Glory]

We're leading the league because out rivals are in transition. If we can add more quality in January we'll be in with a serious shout. Wenger knows this is massive opportunity. The players are aware too but it depends on if they can hold their nerve and we add numbers.

A few stories like this we're bouncing around during the summer.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsne-wenger-this-is-arsenals-best-title-chance-in-years-8845281.html

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2013/07/11/4111037/wilshere-its-a-big-season-for-arsenal

[Letters]

No, we're leading it because we've been in great form and had a great improvement since last year.
We've got 35 points, at this stage last year (after 16 games which was a bit earlier than Christmas) we had 24.

Liverpool have 33, last year they had 22
Chelsea have 33, last year they had 27
City have 32, last year they had 33

None of those clubs seem to have been greatly affected by 'transition'. As I said the only club who have been affected are Utd who have 25 points compared with last year's 39 (:lol:)

Whether we can sustain that improvement as the fixtures pile up remains to be seen. My money's on the super-rich clubs who have assembled much better squads than us.

[Ollie the Optimist]

interesting city stat here. against the top 8 sides, they have played 6 games and taken 15 points out of 18. however they have only played one of those game away from home. chelsea and they lost. and given their away form so far this season, they have to improve big time IMO.

chelsea have been shaky all season and we have been the best team so far. we know our weaknesses and thats squad depth and big game tactics. right now we have the advantage by 2 points. january will be huge, get that month right and i think we will win the league purely because we have shown more consistency then either chelsea or city

[JonasTC]

We've kept our great form up for a year, we have got the most points in 2013 for any premier league side. Hopefully we can do it for another 6 months :bow:

[Power n Glory]

No, we're leading it because we've been in great form and had a great improvement since last year.
We've got 35 points, at this stage last year (after 16 games which was a bit earlier than Christmas) we had 24.

Liverpool have 33, last year they had 22
Chelsea have 33, last year they had 27
City have 32, last year they had 33

None of those clubs seem to have been greatly affected by 'transition'. As I said the only club who have been affected are Utd who have 25 points compared with last year's 39 (:lol:)

Whether we can sustain that improvement as the fixtures pile up remains to be seen. My money's on the super-rich clubs who have assembled much better squads than us.

Liverpool have a shown a massive improvement as well and it's down to them having stability. There have been some shock results at City and Chelsea this season and I can't imagine them starting off this slowly this time next year. The points tally doesn't tell the full story because it doesn't say whose played who and where they dropped points.

Mourinho even ruled out Chelsea's title hopes for this season. That's a mind game he's playing but he even realises they're not the title favorites by default. Again, if you're saying those teams are too strong for us now with all these blips, it won't be much better for us next season when they have their teams assembled.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

i know there is the question that if arsenal can't beat the big teams can they really win the league?


but after tonight and previous results, why isn't the question to chelsea and city, if they can't beat the small teams, can they really win the league?

Ladyarse :bow:

[Maestro]

say it quietly, we can believe between midnight and sunrise ......shhhhh

:run::patrice:

[Letters]

Liverpool have a shown a massive improvement as well and it's down to them having stability. There have been some shock results at City and Chelsea this season and I can't imagine them starting off this slowly this time next year. The points tally doesn't tell the full story because it doesn't say whose played who and where they dropped points.
It's a very simplistic way of looking at things to say that stability = improvement.
It helps I guess although only if the set up is good to start with. If a team has a crap manager and squad then stability isn't going to make it better.

On the one hand you attribute Liverpool's improvement to 'stability' but when I point out that Chelsea have also improved and City done about the same you dismiss it.
Of course Mourinho was playing mind games. They're not favourites by default but with Fergie gone - again, I think Utd are the only major contender to be affected negatively by 'instability' - and with Chelsea having a fantastic squad and now one of the best managers around they've got to be one of the serious contenders. City too have chucked enough money around that they've got a ridiculous squad. All City and Chelsea have done is got better managers in and as I've said it doesn't seem to have affected them too badly. City's away form has been curiously poor but at home...well, you saw what happened to us and they've won every single game, most of them by large margins. Despite their 'instability' they're both up there as most people expected them to be. Both clubs already had their teams expensively assembled and even if it did take a while for the new managers to get their feet under the table I don't buy it takes a whole season to do that, we're half way through now and half a season is enough to get it together.

I agree that next year will be no easier but I'm not convinced it will be much harder - there's only so good a squad can get and City and Chelsea's are about as good as it gets. There is certainly room for improvement in our squad and we do the right things in the transfer market then we could be more competitive next season, or this season if we do the right things in January, which I doubt.

[selassie]

interesting city stat here. against the top 8 sides, they have played 6 games and taken 15 points out of 18. however they have only played one of those game away from home. chelsea and they lost. and given their away form so far this season, they have to improve big time IMO.

chelsea have been shaky all season and we have been the best team so far. we know our weaknesses and thats squad depth and big game tactics. right now we have the advantage by 2 points. january will be huge, get that month right and i think we will win the league purely because we have shown more consistency then either chelsea or city

The optimist in me says if we could sort ourselves out in the big games and nick 3 points here and there and a point here and there we would finish as Champions.

Despite the above, if City sort out their away form which unfortunately looks more likely they will walk away with the league this season.

Chelsea are totally inconsistent, they are actually probably our equal despite ploughing millions more into their squad. Don't see them finishing as Champions unless they sort out Central Midfield and Attack, they have work to do, their defence isn't great either TBH.

The 'Dark Horse' is Liverpool, I am beginning to take them very very seriously because they have been thrashing the smaller teams and don't fair too badly in the big games either.

Put it this way, Liverpool's record against the likes of City and Chelsea/United is a darn sight better than ours.

[Power n Glory]

It's a very simplistic way of looking at things to say that stability = improvement.
It helps I guess although only if the set up is good to start with. If a team has a crap manager and squad then stability isn't going to make it better.

On the one hand you attribute Liverpool's improvement to 'stability' but when I point out that Chelsea have also improved and City done about the same you dismiss it.
Of course Mourinho was playing mind games. They're not favourites by default but with Fergie gone - again, I think Utd are the only major contender to be affected negatively by 'instability' - and with Chelsea having a fantastic squad and now one of the best managers around they've got to be one of the serious contenders. City too have chucked enough money around that they've got a ridiculous squad. All City and Chelsea have done is got better managers in and as I've said it doesn't seem to have affected them too badly. City's away form has been curiously poor but at home...well, you saw what happened to us and they've won every single game, most of them by large margins. Despite their 'instability' they're both up there as most people expected them to be. Both clubs already had their teams expensively assembled and even if it did take a while for the new managers to get their feet under the table I don't buy it takes a whole season to do that, we're half way through now and half a season is enough to get it together.

I agree that next year will be no easier but I'm not convinced it will be much harder - there's only so good a squad can get and City and Chelsea's are about as good as it gets. There is certainly room for improvement in our squad and we do the right things in the transfer market then we could be more competitive next season, or this season if we do the right things in January, which I doubt.

:doh:

I can’t believe I’m having this conversation. As if you haven’t witnessed the damage done to our club with all the chopping and changing to personnel. You’ve seen how the constant manager swapping disrupts a team’s progress as well. How hard is it to understand that this is their bedding in period? They’re two very good coaches but we’re not seeing the best of them just yet. Chelsea lost again last night and that’s very unusual for Jose but I’m sure the more time he has with this team he’ll get them playing in the way he wants. If you don’t believe we’re strong enough to win the league, fair enough and we’ll leave it at that.

[Letters]

I've seen the damage constantly selling our best players has done, to the point where last season we were rubbish to watch and clung on to 4th place by the skin of our teeth.
One big signing later and you think the 'instability' at other clubs (which I showed has had no effect in terms of how they've done so far, Chelsea have actually done better) and you think we're suddenly going to win the title.

No, I don't think we're strong enough and after the last 2 seasons I never expected us to be. Ozil was a good signing, we're clearly a lot better this year but it's not enough as we're still too lightweight up front. I rate Giroud but he's not at the level of a striker who can win you the title. We're heading in the right direction though and that's good enough for me, for now. What we need to do is keep strengthening and we could be serious contenders next year, possibly this year if we make a major signing up front in January which I think unlikely.

[Letters]

PS:
Obviously constantly chopping and changing manager can cause damage but that is mitigated by
a) The new manager being very good and, in Mourinho's case, having previous experience with the club and with winning the PL
b) Having a top quality squad which both clubs do and bloomin' well should given the money they've spent.

Utd have suffered because neither of the above are true. Moyes is fine but he's no Fergie, to be fair to him no-one else is.
And they didn't really have a top squad, they had no business winning the title last year and I don't think anyone other than Fergie could have won it with that squad. They've not really strengthened since.

[Power n Glory]

It’s stupid to dismiss our chances. It’s an open race and we’ve got as much of a shot as our rivals. Chelsea lost again last night and have been poor defensively and wasteful upfront. This isn’t the same Jose Chelsea squad and it will take him time to get that right.

[Letters]

We're top so yes, it is stupid to dismiss our chances. But before the season started - even when the season started - it wasn't obvious we'd be this good.
Chelsea might have wobbled a bit but they're still only 3 points behind us, for all City's poor away form they're only 2 points away.
If we lose on Monday I think it's all over, getting nervous about that one 'cos I think they're there for the taking and we absolutely have to win.

[Power n Glory]

Why do you think they’re there for the talking?

[Letters]

Their away form has been a bit patchy, our home form is very good.
We'll have had a whole week's rest, they played last night and had extra time (not sure what team he put out and how much affect that will have).

We're not going to hammer them but we've got a real chance to beat them this time. I just hope the psychology doesn't affect us, do this lot really believe they can win big games like this? We'll find out on Monday I guess.

[Power n Glory]

That’s why I feel we have a shot at the title this year. Jose is still adjusting and his team will be inconsistent. I just hope we don’t wobble because both Man City and Chelsea will improve next season.

[Özim]

There's no doubt Chelsea and Man City will improve next season, I think Mourinho takes a season or so to get the right players and the right mentality in his players, in his 2nd second you can usually see a vast improvement.

Pellegrini too will improve things, he's only been with the players a few months and hasn't stamped his authority yet, he's a very good manager though you only need to look at his record and how he's done at the clubs he's been at.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well one of Chelsea and Man City won't be winning the league this season so one of them has the threat of being sacked. Mourinho more likely now they can't win the COC.

I think ascribing this idea of stability as something that will Chelsea and Man City attain is a bit short-sighted. They can't both do it based on the track record of what happens in a trophyless season.

[Letters]

Fine, but my point is we may also improve next season, our squad clearly needs another option up front, and neither City or Chelsea are weak this season.
They're both right up there and well in line with what they did last year when they both finished above us.
Those two clubs are the more likely beneficiaries of Fergie going than us.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Liverpool have a shown a massive improvement as well and it's down to them having stability. There have been some shock results at City and Chelsea this season and I can't imagine them starting off this slowly this time next year. The points tally doesn't tell the full story because it doesn't say whose played who and where they dropped points.

Mourinho even ruled out Chelsea's title hopes for this season. That's a mind game he's playing but he even realises they're not the title favorites by default. Again, if you're saying those teams are too strong for us now with all these blips, it won't be much better for us next season when they have their teams assembled.

Letters post essentially drives a coach and horses through your argument.

[Power n Glory]

Not really. His answer regarding the Chelsea game proves my point. Why are they there for the taking on Monday?

[Özim]

Well one of Chelsea and Man City won't be winning the league this season so one of them has the threat of being sacked. Mourinho more likely now they can't win the COC.

I think ascribing this idea of stability as something that will Chelsea and Man City attain is a bit short-sighted. They can't both do it based on the track record of what happens in a trophyless season.

I don't think either will get sacked after one season to be honest, they'll both get a couple seasons at least.

[Özim]

Fine, but my point is we may also improve next season, our squad clearly needs another option up front, and neither City or Chelsea are weak this season.
They're both right up there and well in line with what they did last year when they both finished above us.
Those two clubs are the more likely beneficiaries of Fergie going than us.

Yes we may also improve but it's always hard to tell with us as it all depends on whether we follow up on our summer spend or just go back to bringing in those lesser players.

I'd be more sure the other two will improve than us, simply because you feel their managers won't hesitate to go our and spend money on top players if they want them.

[Letters]

Not really. His answer regarding the Chelsea game proves my point. Why are they there for the taking on Monday?
I answered that. Your argument is that our competitors are in transition but
a) I doubt they'd have seen us as their competitors when we haven't seriously challenged for years.
b) Out of the 3 teams who finished above us last season only one (ManYoo) are well below where they were last year. City are about the same, Chelsea are fairly well ahead of where they were at this time last year.

[Letters]

Yes we may also improve but it's always hard to tell with us as it all depends on whether we follow up on our summer spend or just go back to bringing in those lesser players.

I'd be more sure the other two will improve than us, simply because you feel their managers won't hesitate to go our and spend money on top players if they want them.
I agree although having a blank chequebook helps.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Not really. His answer regarding the Chelsea game proves my point. Why are they there for the taking on Monday?

Yes, really. The relative performances of the teams in that sample demonstrate the lack of correlation between performance and the transition you are referring to.

In Man City's case, the transition in my view is a plus for them as they clearly had a Manager that was toxic last season.

When you add Everton's performance relative to last season, your argument holds even less water.

As for Chelsea, our league positions relative to them are materially unchanged over the most recent two and a half seasons.

[Power n Glory]

Yes, really. The relative performances of the teams in that sample demonstrate the lack of correlation between performance and the transition you are referring to.

In Man City's case, the transition in my view is a plus for them as they clearly had a Manager that was toxic last season.

When you add Everton's performance relative to last season, your argument holds even less water.

As for Chelsea, our league positions relative to them are materially unchanged over the most recent two and a half seasons.

Have Chelsea or City hit the ground running this season or are you willing to admit their form has been patchy? If they came out the blocks flying like how Everton have, then I’d your point but they haven’t. I don’t want to discredit Pellegrini, but he’s never won a league title so you don’t know how he’ll cope leading the race and this is his first season in England with congested games over the holidays. He’s just lost Aguero to injury so we really can’t say for certain how strong City will be. Chelsea’s form has been patchy and it’s been a while since Jose has coached here. Most people are judging him on his past record but so far they are looking un-Jose like and it may take him a while to get to grips with the team. Martinez has been able to quickly stamp his brand of football on Everton, Jose hasn’t done that at Chelsea and City look inconsistent.

Next Monday is one game but you’re forming an opinion of their run of games and feel a more confident about the result because they’re not playing well. That’s how I feel about the season and why it’s a big opportunity. Like a new signing adjusting to the league, they’re not at their best yet and it may take another summer before they are.

[Power n Glory]

I answered that. Your argument is that our competitors are in transition but
a) I doubt they'd have seen us as their competitors when we haven't seriously challenged for years.
b) Out of the 3 teams who finished above us last season only one (ManYoo) are well below where they were last year. City are about the same, Chelsea are fairly well ahead of where they were at this time last year.

How we’re considered by our rivals is irrelevant.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Have Chelsea or City hit the ground running this season or are you willing to admit their form has been patchy? If they came out the blocks flying like how Everton have, then I’d your point but they haven’t. I don’t want to discredit Pellegrini, but he’s never won a league title so you don’t know how he’ll cope leading the race and this is his first season in England with congested games over the holidays. He’s just lost Aguero to injury so we really can’t say for certain how strong City will be. Chelsea’s form has been patchy and it’s been a while since Jose has coached here. Most people are judging him on his past record but so far they are looking un-Jose like and it may take him a while to get to grips with the team. Martinez has been able to quickly stamp his brand of football on Everton, Jose hasn’t done that at Chelsea and City look inconsistent.

Next Monday is one game but you’re forming an opinion of their run of games and feel a more confident about the result because they’re not playing well. That’s how I feel about the season and why it’s a big opportunity. Like a new signing adjusting to the league, they’re not at their best yet and it may take another summer before they are.

I'm basing my opinion on the cold hard facts presented in Letter's post. They also help to support my perception which is different from yours.

Your perception is not supported by what has actually happened.

If anything, I would feel more confident about Monday if Chelsea were managed by someone other than Mourinho. He seems to have Wenger's number.

[Power n Glory]

I'm basing my opinion on the cold hard facts presented in Letter's post. They also help to support my perception which is different from yours.

Your perception is not supported by what has actually happened.

If anything, I would feel more confident about Monday if Chelsea were managed by someone other than Mourinho. He seems to have Wenger's number.

You and Letter's aren't on the same page regarding Monday's game.

What facts? I don't see any.

Jose has experience of winning the Prem but it's his first season back in the Prem and it's showing in the results. We really don't know how long it will take for him to get a handle on his team and so far, the evidence shows that he hasn't got a grip on them yet. It's there in the results.

Pellegrini is a good coach but hasn't won the league before and this is his first season in the Prem. It's uncharted territory for him. You guys are so negative.

[Xhaka Can’t]

"What facts"?

I'm outta here.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

http://i43.tinypic.com/1ekk5x.jpg

[Power n Glory]

"What facts"?

I'm outta here.

Yes, please do exit if this is beyond you. Actual facts.

This is the very same argument Wenger has with the MOTD pundits.

[selassie]

Not really. His answer regarding the Chelsea game proves my point. Why are they there for the taking on Monday?

P'n'G, Don't you think Chelsea look vulnerable this season? Even Palace gave them a game on Saturday, Chelsea were pretty lucky to win. This has been "Chelsea" of this season, they are scrapping wins against canon fodder and are losing their fair share too. They look vulnerable in Defence and weak in Central Midfield, it really is the likes of Hazard, Oscar and Schurrle who are saving their asses this season. They are also going through major transistion, the likes of Cech, Terry, Cole & Lampard are done now.

It's gotten to the point where I expect Chelsea to drop points pretty much wherever they go away from home, that's why I believe we must and should beat them on Monday otherwise it really is points wasted.

Monday is a HUGE game for us given the recent events and our current league position, I personally think it's more than just a game, it really could define our season.

[Letters]

Jose has experience of winning the Prem but it's his first season back in the Prem and it's showing in the results. We really don't know how long it will take for him to get a handle on his team and so far, the evidence shows that he hasn't got a grip on them yet. It's there in the results.
The results which see them with 4 more points than at this stage last season? FACT (little help, there).
Those ones?

[Power n Glory]

P'n'G, Don't you think Chelsea look vulnerable this season? Even Palace gave them a game on Saturday, Chelsea were pretty lucky to win. This has been "Chelsea" of this season, they are scrapping wins against canon fodder and are losing their fair share too. They look vulnerable in Defence and weak in Central Midfield, it really is the likes of Hazard, Oscar and Schurrle who are saving their asses this season. They are also going through major transistion, the likes of Cech, Terry, Cole & Lampard are done now.

It's gotten to the point where I expect Chelsea to drop points pretty much wherever they go away from home, that's why I believe we must and should beat them on Monday otherwise it really is points wasted.

Monday is a HUGE game for us given the recent events and our current league position, I personally think it's more than just a game, it really could define our season.

I totally agree. It’s not what we’ve come to expect from Chelsea and certainly not one managed by Mourinho. We just don’t know what they’re capable of this season and the same goes for City whereas before we’d know certain results would be bread and butter for our rivals. It’s not so clear cut this year. I’m just hoping we’re stronger mentality the blip we’ve had over the past week is ironed out quickly.